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Ep. 91: Why risk-taking is a normal part of being a teenager, and what parents can do about it
203 Plays7 months ago
Think of this podcast as a reframe on your teenager's risky behaviour. By the end of the episode, you'll be able to put your teen's risk-taking into context, and you'll feel much more relaxed as you go through the rollercoaster with them.
Who is Daphne Adler?
Daphne Adler has been described as “a mother rooting for all mothers.” And I think we all need one of those in our camps when it comes to the teenage years.
Daphne has used her analytical and consulting skills to support parents in a new book Debunking Teenagers. In it, she gives us 200 research-based parenting strategies to help adolescents successfully navigate what she calls the “tempteen” years.
The book answers the questions all parents of teens have:
· Why are teenagers constantly tempted to behave recklessly, and what can parents do about it?
· Why is telling your son or daughter to “just say no” a hopelessly ineffective strategy?
· Why are teens constantly taking selfies?
· And how can you keep your child safe behind the wheel?
Other books I recommend:
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email [email protected].
There are already stories from fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction: Teenage Risk-Taking
00:00:00
Speaker
If you were a crazy risk taker as a child, chances are your child is more likely to be someone who has a huge appetite for risk. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
00:00:36
Speaker
My next guest has been described as a mother rooting for all mothers. And I think we all need one of those in our camps when it comes to the teenage years, don't we? Trouble is, this is the time in our parenting journey when we're most likely to lose contact with the parents of our children's friends. Or at least to stop talking about our problems so much because our kids are old enough to know we're talking about them and they don't like it.
Understanding Teen Risk Behaviors
00:01:04
Speaker
Daphne Adler has spent her professional career in management consulting. As a parent to teenagers herself, she's used her analytical and consulting skills to support parents in a new book, Debunking Teenagers. In it, she gives us 200 research-based parenting strategies to help adolescents successfully navigate what she calls the temp teen years.
00:01:29
Speaker
The book answers the questions we've all got as parents of teenagers, like why are teenagers constantly tempted to behave recklessly? I know you've got an example in your head as you're hearing this, and what can parents do about it? Why is telling your son or daughter to just say no a hopelessly ineffective strategy?
00:01:53
Speaker
How can you keep your child safe behind the wheel? And the ultimate, why are teens constantly taking selfies? Daphne, welcome to Teenage Geeks.
00:02:04
Speaker
Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Look, I'm fascinated. I couldn't say no to a book that tells me why my teenagers are taking risks and what I can do about it. Because I don't know about anyone else, but just reading that word, tempt teen, is a bit of a refrain for me. Because it helps me remember that risk taking is completely normal for teenagers and not something to blame my own crap parenting for.
00:02:31
Speaker
Can you explain a bit more for us about that term?
Modern Society's Impact on Teen Development
00:02:35
Speaker
Of course, yes. So the concept of attending is quite a recent concept in a way. So a long time ago, there wasn't really a concept of teenage years. So in traditional societies, you would be a child initially, and then you would become a kind of adult almost abruptly when you would be drawn into doing work.
00:02:54
Speaker
to help the households, you'd be an apprentice in some kind of craft. And so there wasn't really an opportunity for children to have a lot of leisure time and congregate and form groups with their own distinct identities. So it's really a modern phenomenon that we have this phase of life, which is called
00:03:11
Speaker
the teenage years. And in a way, when kids go through adolescence, that their body preparing them to become an adult. But our society at the moment doesn't really allow them to do that immediately. We instead had this prolonged period where they're still studying, they're still learning, and it takes a lot longer really to be launched. So you had this mismatch a little bit between
00:03:34
Speaker
what we were designed to do biologically, which is break away from our parents when we go through puberty, and the modern reality that we're still living at home. And I think another reason that's getting exacerbated is that children are now going through puberty younger. No one really knows why this is happening, but over the last 50 to 100 years, the timing of puberty is shifting earlier and earlier. Lots of thoughtful explanations could be environmental contaminants, things like that,
00:04:04
Speaker
you know, chemically sort of driving this change. But the big problem there is that the timing of puberty is what drives when children are drawn to risk taking. Right. And so, it goes back to that, you know, the kids historically who succeeded in life breaking away from their parents were the ones who took risks at that time and started their own families. And
Biological and Social Expectations of Teens
00:04:28
Speaker
so,
00:04:28
Speaker
The problem is now that when you go through puberty younger, you have this desire to take risks then, but your mind, your brain hasn't really developed sufficiently to have that kind of cognitive control to help you make sensible decisions. So your brain's cognitive control capacity develops over many years. Your brain isn't really fully formed till you're about 25 years old. Yeah. Well, that's what I was going to pick up on next. I'll ask a stupid question, but how do you think
00:04:59
Speaker
kids who transitioned abruptly to adulthood as you've described it in the past, were able to make that navigation. Were their brains maturing before 25? What's changed there? Because it feels like when you describe it, it feels like we've set our kids up, whether we haven't done it intentionally, but nature has set our kids up these days.
00:05:24
Speaker
to really struggle in those years, kind of 11 to 25, because that makes total sense. They're designed to risk take and get on with their lives, but society doesn't let them. And society doesn't let them, presumably because it's been proven that their brains aren't really ready for it until they're 25. Well, I would say first of all, kids rise to the challenges that you throw at them.
00:05:47
Speaker
And so definitely if you expect them to be more self-sufficient, if you don't do their laundry for them, they will realize I need to do it. So, you know, part of it is that we're depriving them of those challenges and the opportunities to rise to those challenges by treating them like children, when in fact they have the capabilities to be more mature than that. Yeah, good point.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yes. So I think that's that's a lot of it. But also I think that our modern society has very different demands on us. Ultimately you know we're required in our modern world to use our cognitive capacities in a very different way. Right. A lot of our work is death based analytical rather than
00:06:22
Speaker
you know practical and out in the world and so you know I think our modern system of education does prepare children well for the jobs of today but the jobs of today are of course very different than they used to be in more traditional societies. So I'm imagining that when you were 12 years old in the in the cave bear age
00:06:42
Speaker
Um, you needed to take risks cause she needed to get out and get on with the job of killing food, killing for food and foraging and set. Yeah. Like you say, creating fire and setting up families, which requires a great deal of emotional and mental strength. So. Exactly. It's even funny to observe with teenagers and sleep.
00:07:02
Speaker
So I don't know if you've noticed this with your own children, but teenagers start staying up later and waking up later. Yeah. But that's universal across all cultures. And they find that there's this shift in the timing of sleep. And that's all about when their sleep hormones kick in. And so you can put a teenager to bed early, but they will lie awake staring at the ceiling because the melatonin hasn't kicked in. And the theory behind that is that
00:07:28
Speaker
teenagers, that was the years when you needed to go out and start your own family and you needed time out of the observation of the adults around you to be able to go do that. So children and adults go to sleep at a normal time whereas teenagers stay up late and there's a biological reason.
00:07:44
Speaker
What you're saying is that our teenagers are supposed to be out till midnight. I'm looking for the opposite sex. Yes, exactly, exactly. Oh my God. Right. I sense hundreds of thousands of parents tuning out right now. Oh la la la la la. I don't want to hear about that. Thank you very much. Yeah. But we need to dig into
Parental Influence on Teen Independence
00:08:06
Speaker
that. So what you were saying a minute ago made me think that
00:08:12
Speaker
Our teenagers are capable of doing their own laundry and cleaning their own rooms and making their own food if it's provided for them. And what prevents them, because it is us as parents, because I got an instinctive kind of like punch in the gut when you said that, like, oh God, I would hate that.
00:08:36
Speaker
Is it us that gets in the way of what they're trying to do? And is that detrimental? I suppose so, yes. I mean, you do have an increasing rate of what we can joke and we call failure to launch, right? So higher percentages of children are living at home after university, they are
00:08:55
Speaker
during university calling home all the time. They are, you know, asking their parents to intervene when they have an issue with the school. I mean, and all these things where we're of course enabling, right? And so it's sort of our job in a way as a parent of teenagers to step back and let them, let them make their own mistakes a bit and learn from the practical realities of life rather than shielding them from it. Yeah. I'm just making a note of that because you've already given me two signed by sound bites too.
00:09:21
Speaker
that I want to share with people about this podcast. You know, you're speaking my language because that is, much as I haven't wanted to let my kids go, something kind of cognitively has told me that it's the right thing to do and where I've been brave enough to do it.
00:09:39
Speaker
It has largely worked, not seamlessly, not smoothly, not without pain on both sides, but I can look back and say that was absolutely the right thing to do to let them go. And actually, my newsletter this month is about letting kids grow up.
00:09:57
Speaker
which involves pain.
Supervised Risk-Taking and Adult Skills
00:09:59
Speaker
Sure. I guess the only caveat I'd put to that is that the very young teens who've gone through puberty early and their brains aren't really controlling them yet, they'll be too drawn to risks. And so you do need to let them learn social skills and interact with kids their age, but supervision is helpful. Like I said, historically, children didn't congregate. They spent time with other competent adults. And so having your kids spend time with competent adults is quite a good thing.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, there's a book called Hold On To Your Kids that I read recently. I can't remember who the author is. Is it Gabbo Matta? No. Anyway, I'll figure it out and put it in the show notes, which caused me a lot of stress because the premise was that we, historically, children would have been far more affiliated with their families, their parents, the other adults in the wider family and community.
00:10:55
Speaker
Until a much older age and that would have been their greatest source of influence so they would have been coached in adult strategies for life. Whereas now there's so much more disconnect and school doesn't help with that the affinity and the place that teenagers go to for their support network is.
00:11:17
Speaker
more immature teenagers, let's just be blunt about it. And that's really detrimental. And I thought, oh, that is what I've encouraged. I encourage my kids to get out there and be with their friends. They're benefits to both, right? They can learn from their friends' social skills and they can learn from adults, you know, how to behave like a sensible person.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's really fascinating. So you've kind of explained why teenagers are constantly tempted to behave recklessly. What can we as parents do about that? Well, so there are many different strategies and it depends on what problem you're trying to solve. I mean, I think, you know, when it comes to hurting themselves, probably the top
00:12:01
Speaker
the danger facing them is driving. Unfortunately, we aren't as scared as we should be by the concept of driving because we do it all the time, so it seems just every day and driving accidents are unlikely.
00:12:17
Speaker
But in the grand scheme of things, if someone's going to suffer an untimely death, the most dangerous year of their life is when they're 17. And the reason is because they get their license then.
Managing Teen Driving Risks
00:12:27
Speaker
The issue is that kids drive very competently when there's an adult in the car.
00:12:32
Speaker
But the minute they get their license and there's no supervision, their crash rates just go spiking up for about three months or so. And it's because they're so excited about having this newfound freedom that they start just behaving like idiots, basically. They start speeding, they rapidly accelerate, and they swerve, and they careen around corners, and they race each other. And that's when they end up really hurting themselves. So in terms of really practical tips about how you can prevent that,
00:13:02
Speaker
The best one is actually to get a device that you can put in your car that will monitor their driving behavior. So a lot of insurance companies will give you a monitoring system that can be put in the car and it's really a win-win because they will charge you lower premiums.
00:13:21
Speaker
for a teen teenage driver and but also it and the reason they do that is because it actually lowers the chance your kid will crash because it's like having an avatar of you sitting in the car with them right they know someone's basically watching what they're doing and then they drive a lot more safely so that's like a really practical way you can.
00:13:38
Speaker
keep your child safe when they're driving. Great way to look at it, an avatar of you. So they call it like a black box, don't they? Yeah, exactly. I mean, they're also ones that use like smartphone technology that aren't quite as effective, but they can work too. So the idea is just to make a practical barrier to them behaving stupidly in that case. Yeah.
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah, I've got a funny story on that. A friend of mine's daughter passed her driving test and she had one of these kind of so-called black boxes in the car. And also top tip, if you are looking to ensure a teenager on your car, it's much better for them to be added as, no, for you to be added as a driver on their insurance policy. That also takes your costs down quite significantly because it is
00:14:26
Speaker
extortionate what teenagers cost for car insurance. Actually, I'm just thinking out loud. I think that actually making them pay for their own insurance if they've got some kind of a part-time job might also prevent them from taking too many risks in the car because they'll get hit hard where it will hurt the most.
00:14:46
Speaker
in an emotional capacity. But the funny story is that this mom that I know, she shares this car with her daughter, and she constantly finds herself speeding, like literally just one mile over the speed limit, which happens. I mean, all right, I'm just admitted to breaking the law. That's terrible. Don't do it deliberately, but occasionally, you will drift over the 30 miles an hour for a moment.
00:15:13
Speaker
And she's like, it is so hard to keep it under, but I have to, because otherwise her insurance will get invalidated. I love it. So it improves our driving too, so win-win, like you said. Yeah, so you kind of answered the driving question. What else can we do generally when our teenagers are just
00:15:37
Speaker
Well, I love that term behaving recklessly because I know so many parents who get up every day wondering what their child is going to do next to frustrate them, cause them stress, create an issue that they're going to have to fix for them and tearing their hair out. What can we do generally when that's the teenager that we've got on our plates?
00:16:03
Speaker
Well, I mean, certainly it's hard. A lot of risk taking is genetic. So if you were a crazy risk taker as a child, chances are your child is more likely to be someone who has a huge appetite for risk. I would say in those circumstances, if you have a teenager who's more likely to want to drive their car fast than to stay at home and read a book.
00:16:26
Speaker
And arguably, what you want to do is channel their desire to take risks into forms that are going to be less dangerous. So rather than speeding their car, you could try to get them involved in, you know, rock climbing or white water rafting or something where they get that thrill. But actually, statistically, it's less likely to harm them.
00:16:46
Speaker
Some kids just are naturally drawn to extreme sports, but you want to keep them away from base jumping and instead encourage them to do something that's a little bit more safe to get that risk appetite out of their system.
Safer Alternatives to Risky Behaviors
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder if it's a chemical thing and the dopamine hit comes into play here because my kids, they're not into risky sports, extreme sports, but they're both really good skiers and they absolutely love a ski trip. It gives them, they will describe the rush that it gives them.
00:17:24
Speaker
Um, and you know, that, that is a date where it actually is, I think it's the most dangerous sport second to horse riding. Yeah. It depends on how you define danger. I mean, wrestling is actually how you end up the most in the emergency room. Oh, really? Yeah. So in my book, I have a whole analysis of different activities and things, but, um, yes, skiing is, is quite dangerous and wearing a helmet can mitigate a lot of, you know, some of the risks, obviously not all of it, but in terms of head injuries, anytime they're doing anything, super active helmets are.
00:17:53
Speaker
are crucial, bicycling, motorcycle. Don't even let your child near a motorcycle. That's one of my absolute hard, so your kid's 85 times more likely to crash a motorcycle than a car. I mean, they're just so, so dangerous. If there's one thing I'd say keep your child away from, it would be that's like a hard no.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yes, yeah. Well, on that note, are there, does it, so hard no's are really difficult to get past our kids sometimes. And most of us I think know from experience that when we've issued a hard no,
00:18:28
Speaker
If that teenager and actually some children are, is not on board with that hard no in some way that is motivated by their own, their own sense of what they want in their life, they will find a way past that hard no, whatever you do. So, but
00:18:51
Speaker
Is there any kind of, I've often thought, all right, look, I saved my hard nose for the things that I absolutely will not tolerate. Tattoos was one of them with mine and one of them's found a way past that already. And they're both working on me for another one.
00:19:10
Speaker
It clearly wasn't hard enough. But if I save my hard nose for the stuff that really matters to me, does that mean that my kids are going to make more sensible choices elsewhere? Or am I just diluting the part? I completely agree with you that you want to save the nose for the things that really matter. I mean, also, as an aside, I'll say there are ways to say no more effectively.
00:19:38
Speaker
So just on that, a few tips about how to say no. I mean, the first is listen. So when you listen to your team and repeat back what they've said, it makes them feel like you've respected their point of view and they're more likely to be therefore open to what you might have to say later. Also often not saying no immediately, but saying I'm going to take some time to think about this and then coming back to them with the no.
00:20:02
Speaker
makes you, again, feel more reasonable, and they'll see you as less stubborn and more, you know, thoughtful. And keeping cool, obviously, if you're getting into kind of an altercation, then stepping away and discussing it later can help. And also sticking together with your partner if you have a spouse, you know, deciding beforehand what you're going to say so that kids can't play you off of each other.
00:20:27
Speaker
go to one and then go to the other, that's always good. And then finally kind of offering evidence.
Alcohol and Its Impact on Teenagers
00:20:33
Speaker
So definitely not comparing your team with other people, but you can kind of say here are the consequences of mistakes that other people have made that might help in terms of bringing them around to your point of view. And then in terms of things to say no to, so I mentioned driving already, I would say, so I did an analysis for my book
00:20:56
Speaker
You know, how do teens end up, you know, in the emergency room or dead? You know, how do they end up with kind of lifelong things they might regret some day? And I kind of said, what are the most dangerous issues facing teens today? And what was interesting is the one that actually came out top of the list, much to my surprise in a way, was alcohol.
00:21:17
Speaker
And it's not because it, well, it can contribute to teens getting into trouble while they're teenagers, but it's also actually just about the risk of long-term alcoholism. And the issue here is that teenagers are actually more susceptible to becoming alcoholics and, you know, the
00:21:40
Speaker
The rate of alcoholism is very, you know, is higher than it should be about 10% of adult men and 5% of adult women are alcoholics. Wow. So, you know, it's, lots of people who drag as teenagers turned out fine. I mean, maybe you did yourself, but if society as a whole were more restrictive rates of alcoholism and premature deaths from alcohol would go down. So just to give you a bit more,
00:22:05
Speaker
because, for example, my husband was sort of shocked by this recommendation and saying, really, like, are you being kind of, you know, moralistic, or, you know, it's not about that. So, um, a great example is, um, Italy. There's only one country in the whole of the Western world where alcoholism is a non-issue, and that's Italy. Um, and it's because the Italians have just a completely different relationship with alcohol, so their wine is like a part of an everyday, um,
00:22:31
Speaker
meal, kids are always allowed to sip a little bit. There's no taboo at all. So the question is, why can't we all just act like the Italians? And a lot of parents in the UK think therefore the right approach is let my kids sip some alcohol at dinner, you know, model good drinking behavior, right? And that makes intuitive sense. The problem is it's not actually that simple. So it's really hard to import an entire culture
00:22:57
Speaker
into a different cultural context. And you don't really realize, but by the time your kids are teenagers, their views on alcohol have already been informed by lots of messages from television, you know, movies, books, and even real life. You know, you have characters like Mrs. Doubtfire or Smee in Peter Pan and, you know, even Dumbo, you know, gets drunk by methic. So by the time kids are teenagers, they've learned
00:23:22
Speaker
that alcohol is taboo in their society and they've learned it's possible to get very drunk. And like in Italy where there aren't examples like that. So very perversely allowing your kids to sip alcohol at home can really backfire. Kids outside of Italy who sip under their parent supervision are actually more likely to develop a drinking problem. It seems like if kids know that, you know, they know drinking is taboo in their society but their parents are letting them sip anyway, then they kind of
00:23:52
Speaker
wrongly conclude that it's fine for them to drink even more when they're out of eyesight, right? Their parents think this is okay. And so the other issue is that the younger kids start drinking, the more chance they will have a problem with alcohol later. There's something about the younger brain that makes it much more vulnerable.
00:24:14
Speaker
to becoming addicted. It's obviously not ethical to experiment on humans, but we know this for a couple of reasons from studies of animals. Younger animal brains are much more vulnerable to being damaged by alcohol, and they also rewire more quickly to find alcohol really pleasurable and addictive. But there are also examples in humans, so if you look at identical twins, if one twin starts drinking earlier, that twin is more likely to become an alcoholic.
00:24:43
Speaker
And see it in the real world too, like, you know, more than 40% of kids started drinking when they were 14, became alcoholics versus only about 10% of those who started when they were 20. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So there's something about the brain that's just really susceptible when kids are younger. So you just want to keep them off it as long as you can. I mean, obviously it's hard when they go to university that they're off, right? But while they're at home, try your best not to.
00:25:09
Speaker
So, practical questions. That's huge, sorry. 40% if they start at 14 and I would say, I have anecdotal experience of kids that I know drinking at that age because it's seen as taboo, as you said, illicit and you need to break away from your parents and do illicit things. It's readily available and it's fun.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, of course. That's enormous. I read a statistic once about no alcohol at all should pass their lips until they're beyond 15. There's something about the brain at 15 that before 15, it can't tolerate alcohol safely at all. I'm not quite sure what the rationale for that was. I mean, this one always gets me a little bit because my daughter
00:25:59
Speaker
I actively encouraged her to start drinking at 16. And she actually didn't until she felt like it. But that's because she has type 1 diabetes and you mix alcohol with insulin, it can be very, very, very dangerous. And I wanted her to have plenty of practice.
00:26:19
Speaker
before she was on her own at university, which she is now and she's managing fine. So in one sense, I've done a really good thing to help her know how to drink safely and keep herself alive. But in another, I've potentially supported her in risk taking, which
00:26:38
Speaker
which might have been
Teen Secrecy and Parental Strategies
00:26:39
Speaker
a bad decision. It's so, so, so difficult. Of course, of course. And like I said, plenty of people who drink young turn out completely fine. It's more just overall, if we could all as a society do this, it would, it would help, you know. And, and everyone knows their own child best, right? It's not that some children are probably more risk takers than others, you know, as a parent, you know intuitively what your child is like. It's more just, I think, um,
00:27:01
Speaker
Sometimes it's easy to be naive and right assume, oh, my child would never do such a thing and actually, you know, kids can be pretty devious outside of their parents. Well, on that point, and I know, sorry, I interrupted you, so we'll go back to your point around alcohol again, but on that point,
00:27:20
Speaker
I think it's worth just underlining for anyone listening that if you... I think it was my guest, Dr. Richard Pyle, who's a couple of episodes back from you. His biggest quote was, if you think that your child is telling you everything about their life, you are competent.
00:27:41
Speaker
Lately deluded. They are definitely going to do things that you A, don't know about and B, definitely don't want them to do. Oh, it's awful. There's so many great studies where they survey parents and they survey teens and parents say one thing and then the teens completely contradict them. You know, it's just awful. Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:03
Speaker
And is that okay? That's the question I've got. Do we just need to make our peace with that? Because I feel like a lot of the conflict that happens between parents and teenagers is because we're trying to control and keep hold of and keep them safe. But really, actually, this is what I talk about a lot in my coaching work.
00:28:28
Speaker
It's about making ourselves feel safe when we try to control what they're doing. It's more about that than it is about keeping them safe. Is that kind of acceptance just something that we will all benefit from if we can get there? Yeah, I mean, I think in practice not being naive and just assuming they might behave badly and then planning accordingly is probably the best strategy. So actually,
00:28:51
Speaker
that ties me nicely back into my points about alcohol so you can tell your kid not to drink but they're probably not going to listen to you right if they're with friends and they want to impress them so it's really about practical that you know most of my recommendations are super practical so on the alcohol front you know the first step is lock up your alcohol cabinet so
00:29:12
Speaker
When you survey young drinkers about where they got their liquor from, it cupboards at home, you know, their parents never notice. So most people can't keep perfect track of how full every bottle is. And, you know, anyway, it's pretty easy to like replace the vodka with a bit of water. You know, you wouldn't, you probably wouldn't notice, right? And the other, another practical step is colluding with the parents of your kid's friends. So.
00:29:35
Speaker
It's natural to feel worried about being the only stickler. Like you don't want to be the bad cop and also the good cop. But weirdly, most parents overestimate other parents' approval of underage drinking. So it's one of those silly situations where everyone assumes everyone else is more lenient so then no one wants to be the bad cop. But if you can coordinate and work together, it's actually very possible. If you all lock up your alcohol cabinets, you can succeed in keeping kids away from the alcohol.
00:30:05
Speaker
And then, you know, kids, it's worth talking to your child, right? So you wouldn't think your kid wouldn't necessarily listen, but there's a nice example where parents who talked to their kids about drinking before they went off to university, those kids were less likely to binge drink once they got there. So, you know, there's no harm in trying. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker
Okay, that's a really good practical conversation around alcohol and I think that is a problem that most parents or teenagers are going to worry about at some point, so it's really useful to explore a bit more deeply.
00:30:43
Speaker
I'm interested by one of the questions that you say you can address in your book is, why is telling your son or daughter to just say no a hopelessly ineffective strategy? I'd love to know what your take on that is. Yeah. So the problem with just saying no is that, you know, when kids are in a situation, the reason kids often will take a drug or, you know, experiment with something is because they want to impress their friends and look cool.
00:31:11
Speaker
And they're not thinking about their longevity at that point because what's actually more important to them right at that moment is saving face and being cool.
00:31:24
Speaker
what's far better is to arm your kids in advance with strategies they can use when they're put in those awkward peer situations, right? So if their friends are pressuring them to drink alcohol and they can say, oh, you know, I can't because I have a sports match tomorrow, or because my parents insist that I wake them up when I come home and they will smell in my breath instantly and I'll be in horrible trouble, or you can help them come up with excuses, you can give them suggestions like, well, you could fill your cup,
00:31:51
Speaker
empty your cup in the bathroom and fill it with water and everyone will still think it's alcohol. There are ways that you can give kids just practical ways to push back on that kind of peer pressure in the moment. And the other thing is that the concept of saying no, a lot of kids do say no initially, and then they get pushed even further. In fact, when kids are offering another kid a substance, there's usually an audience involved.
00:32:16
Speaker
So it's in front of peers and they're being pressured into doing something. And it's so funny when it comes to the concept of peer pressure. There's so much research about how to help kids resist peer pressure. There's almost no research about why kids exert peer pressure. What are they trying to achieve by insisting?
00:32:34
Speaker
Is it because they're trying to look cool saying, oh, I condone this taboo behavior. I'm going to force you to do it too. Is it like a display of dominance? We're not really sure, but it is a performance and there's an audience. And so your child needs to then be prepared for how they're going to respond in that moment because both kids on the spot aren't able to think of a good comeback or a way to avoid the situation, which is a shame.
Peer Pressure and Social Survival
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah. So they often say no. And then when they're pressed, then they end up saying yes because they
00:33:03
Speaker
Well, I've got a theory on that and it goes back to the biological prehistoric thing as well, that it's about the need to belong because if we don't belong, then we're effectively alone. And historically that would have meant failure. We would have died if we hadn't belonged. I absolutely agree with you. I think that's spot on.
00:33:25
Speaker
And yeah, and you know, teenagers have formed their own little tribe, right? And they're trying to fit in. I mean, it's like the tattooing. It's like a visible badge of like, I'm part of this tribe. And they feel a powerful need to belong and to be respected by their peers. But you have to acknowledge and, you know,
00:33:41
Speaker
It's a rational behavior on their part in a way, right? So when someone starts smoking, you know, they're trying to fit in. They're not thinking about how they're going to feel when they're empty because that's not relevant. What they need to do now is succeed in their current life, right?
00:33:57
Speaker
Exactly, yeah. And it's so, so compelling. I mean, it's even hard for me to resist sometimes doing, with people pleasers, for a good reason. Of course, yeah. Yeah, but it's really sad because sometimes, like with the smoking,
00:34:12
Speaker
often even your very first cigarette can trigger this continuous physical addiction. Nicotine is the second, third most addictive substance in the world. It doesn't harm them in the short term, but obviously does in the long term. Kids don't realize that they're almost making a decision for life when they agree to take the cigarette.
00:34:34
Speaker
most people assume they're going to quit later, and then most people try to quit later and are completely unable to do so, and then end up regretting it, which is such a shame. Because it's so addictive. And as a non-smoker, I never really understood that. Well, it doesn't taste very nice, so why would you not just stop, but it's the physical effect, or the physiological effect it has on your body, right? So nicotine, I think alcohol, what's the other one, the top three?
00:34:59
Speaker
most addictive things because we all imagine heroin. There's actually many components to addiction. There's psychological addiction, like I want to do this again. There's physical addiction, like I crave it. There's withdrawal if you stop taking it. There's many ways to measure it, but generally speaking, it's crack cocaine and heroin.
00:35:19
Speaker
are the only two that are more physically addictive than nicotine. Right. So nicotine is even ahead of alcohol. Yes. And what's fascinating is that you can actually predict based on how someone responds to their very first cigarette how likely they are to become a chain smoker. So people who feel like a rush or a buzz or who feel more relaxed are way more likely to escalate and smoke a lot.
00:35:42
Speaker
than people who just cough and splutter and feel sick. So that's genetic, right? On their first cigarette. Yes. Because I just assumed everybody hates it the first time. I remember having one when I was probably 16 and just feeling like a complete idiot because I couldn't breathe in front of my friends. So that pulled me off forever. Yeah, well, you were lucky, right? But some people got a real buzz, and that feels really good. And those are the people, even after a couple of days, can start getting hooked, and their brain will permanently adapt, and they'll crave it then for the rest of their lives.
00:36:11
Speaker
It's just tough. I have a lot to say on how to stop smoking as well if you're interested to hear. Well, that might be another podcast.
Bullying: Causes and Solutions
00:36:21
Speaker
We definitely could do with an expose on effective ways to quit addictions. But I'm interested to get onto a couple of the other points that you mentioned.
00:36:33
Speaker
About bullies and victims, so reforming bullies and supporting victims is a strategy that schools use, that parents use. Yes. And you say it misses the point. Yes. Tell us more about that. Absolutely.
00:36:49
Speaker
So the problem with bullying is that bullies are unfortunately often perceived as cool and powerful and popular by their peers, and they use bullying to help them gain prestige. And so that may kind of avoid their company because they realize they're not very nice, but it can actually help.
00:37:10
Speaker
It can even help improve their standing with the other sex, like bullying does pay in an adolescent environment. But it's a performance and the key to stopping the show isn't with either of the actors, the bully or the victim, it's with the audience. And so just as I was talking about with the just say no issue, about 85% of bullying episodes are in front of a crowd.
00:37:31
Speaker
And if the classmates standing around react positively to the way the bully is behaving, then the bully will escalate. And if they challenge it, then the bully backs down. The problem is most kids actually do disapprove of bullying, but it's typically easier to be quiet than to take the risk of looking foolish or even becoming a target of the bully themselves. But then the problem is that kids then incorrectly assume that the others who are silent are condoning the bullying.
00:38:02
Speaker
And so it's a vicious circle where everyone assumes everyone else approves of it and then effectively the group does approve it. But the good thing is that kids are actually very acutely sensitive to the attitudes of the other bystanders. And so, for example, if you're the parent of a child who is just naturally confident and popular, that's the kind of child who can make a big difference in these situations. Because if someone like that is willing to spend a little bit of their social capital, you might call it,
00:38:29
Speaker
to intervene, then that can drastically change the incidence of the bullying. So if you think your child, the most common problem is you think your child's being bullied, right? The best, probably, approach is at the school because there are anti-bullying programs that play on exactly that. It's about being an upstander rather than a bystander and trying to encourage the confident kids to speak out.
00:38:53
Speaker
Um, failing that, you know, a high risk, but maybe potentially useful strategy could be to try to find out who are the students at school who do, you know, who are both popular and also kind and sort of ask maybe a teacher to approach them in confidence to see if they would intervene. Um, you definitely don't want it to be obvious the teacher is involved because that can really undermine the situation, you know.
00:39:15
Speaker
It's really sad because a lot of kids who are being bullied never tell an adult. And it's funny when adults put together lists of how to help kids being bullied, their suggestions are always go to a counselor, go to a teacher, go to your parent. Kids don't do that. They don't do that because if they tattle, it makes it even worse. Then they lose even more social standing and the bully is going to come after them even more. It just backfires massively so that kids can't. But if you can do it behind the scenes and try to get allies who are their peers to help, it can make a huge
00:39:45
Speaker
a huge benefit. Also, the more drastic courses, even trying to get them out of that peer situation, moving schools, that can help because sometimes it's really arbitrary. Kids can get off to the wrong foot at the start just for some random small reason, but then once someone's been granted as a victim, it's very hard to escape from that. Sometimes a fresh start can really help. I know that's not
00:40:08
Speaker
feasible in a lot of circumstances. Yeah, I'm just wondering if it, I guess it's again, really, really high risk for them or feels high risk, but if the kids are being bullied, do know who the popular people are who are kind.
00:40:26
Speaker
I'm wondering if they could be encouraged to is it an effective strategy for them to approach those kids themselves and try and because I think this is what happens kids form groups of safe people and there's jostling that goes on within those groups but they reach a level
00:40:46
Speaker
that is tolerable for them, and they stick with that. They tolerate what kids like to call banter, what we also call banter, and I've got a real issue with that word, because it's only banter if it's tolerable for you, and you find it fun as well, and it can very quickly cross over into bullying, which is not acceptable. But my sense is that kids kind of band together in groups that feel just about secure enough,
00:41:15
Speaker
to protect them from having to be
00:41:21
Speaker
at the mercy of people outside of that group who would otherwise pick on them, isolate them and turn them into a victim. Is that an effective strategy or is that far too high risk for any child to take it? I think it's just unrealistic that a kid, I mean, typically kids were being bullied. The reason they're being bullied is because they are slightly socially awkward in some way. Sure. It's asking a lot to approach someone as a higher social status and ask for help.
00:41:48
Speaker
That can also take it back. I just don't think it's likely the kids would take that act. I mean, even if it would help them, I think it's improbable. But that's why the kind of behind the scenes, you know, but ideally, really, a teacher can make a big difference in terms of creating a culture in a school where, you know, bystanders stand up and, you know, don't let this stuff happen.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, no, you've got me interested in bullying generally and campaigns. I don't need another campaign. I mean, on that subject, though, there's also, there's kind of another option to bullying is harassment. I mean, a lot of kids, especially girls, are getting harassed that's bullying and sexual harassment and stuff.
00:42:27
Speaker
And a big problem there is that a lot of the people doing it actually don't realize that that's what they're doing. So when when you interview kids, boys who've admitted to harassment, they think it's not a big deal or they say they're trying to be funny. They'll say things like, oh, girls love it. They just don't want to admit it. Or, you know, if a girl hits on a guy, he doesn't get upset. It makes his day, you know.
00:42:47
Speaker
But actually about two thirds of young women who get these comments say they feel offended or scared or angry. And so there's just this disconnect. A lot of kids who are probably good kids at heart just don't realize that what they're doing is coming across as kind of bullying or harassing behavior.
00:43:02
Speaker
So there's something about if you have a son, it's worth having that conversation. Just so they don't make that. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. And boys of sisters are more fortunate because they get told by their sisters. This is my experience.
00:43:21
Speaker
Whilst we're on the subject, there's an episode that I recorded a while back with Tony Hargis on how to stand up for yourself. It's mostly in the workplace, but it equates to schools as well in the face of sexual harassment.
00:43:37
Speaker
And I mean, she is a very active campaigner on social media, but it's quite a useful episode for anybody who feels like they're experiencing that. And for any adolescent boys who think it's no big deal, it's a good listen. So that kind of leads me on to one of the other questions that you talk about addressing in your book.
00:44:05
Speaker
The issues that children are facing online, I don't want to turn this into a big debate about social media and whether we should control our children's access to it or not. We do talk about that in probably most episodes of this podcast.
00:44:19
Speaker
But what interested me in your question was what are the real perils that children are facing online rather than the imagined fears that we as parents who didn't grow up in a digital age have?
Screen Time and Social Development
00:44:33
Speaker
Yes, of course. I mean, so, you know, I go through in my book every possible problem they could face from, you know...
00:44:40
Speaker
cyberbullying, the video game addiction, the gambling identity theft. I mean, there's lots of, there are lots of fails out there. I mean, the one I don't, you know, I don't emphasize is actually the whole concept of, you know, grooming and online predators, because actually, it's a red herring. I mean, kids.
00:44:55
Speaker
are meeting strangers online, but they tend to be people their own age. And, you know, when they do meet up with them offline, it tends to be no different than if they've met any other strangers at a party, you know, offline. It's not that there's any specific danger there. And I think it's more a question of usage of time. You know, I think kids are, teenagers in particular, at this amazing age where their brains are just sponges. They can learn so much so quickly and easily. You know, and if they're spending a lot of their time online,
00:45:25
Speaker
That's time they're not spending doing other things, more traditional activities. And of course, you know, people say, oh, I need to interact with my friends and my friends are online. I mean, that's what's a shame. Right. Is that is that it used to be humans learned by looking at each other face to face and now they're interacting only on a on a screen and
00:45:46
Speaker
The downside of that is that our kids are not learning the kind of social skills and ability to read emotions and faces that is actually really important to learn. And it's really tough, I think, as a parent facing this issue because
00:45:58
Speaker
You don't want your child to be the pariah. You don't want to be your child to be the only one who doesn't have access and all their friends are online. I think that's where I would say it's the headmaster or mistress of your school that is actually the person who's the most critical because the school sets the culture. It's fascinating how
00:46:17
Speaker
some schools ban devices entirely from the premises. And at those schools, children interact face-to-face, whereas other schools absolutely freely allow devices. And that's when you have kids in the same room as each other interacting over a device. And so I think if I were a parent wanting to make a dent in this issue, I would be trying to advocate with the leader of my child's school, because it's a society-wide phenomenon. And the only way we can make a shift is if everybody shifts.
00:46:45
Speaker
one parent, you know, insists on stricter, stricter guidelines. Oh, completely. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's huge. And I tend to take the view that it is, you know, a digital presence, a digital future. It's, it's just part of life now. It's not something
00:47:02
Speaker
that we can avoid, shut down, keep our kids away from. And I do know people who very bravely are saying no smartphones until their children are 16, 17, 18, whatever it is, and they're sticking with it for very, very good reasons.
00:47:17
Speaker
I would have found that too difficult. My preference is to try and teach my kids how to manage online stuff, social media, as part of their everyday lives. But I absolutely get your point that it's a time suck. And it's interesting, my daughter's now 19. I'm very, very busy with her friends and her work in university.
00:47:45
Speaker
she will say to me, and she was one, you know, we've had arguments about her screen time, but she'll say to me, as soon as you end up in a more adult situation with a lot of responsibilities, so she has a part-time job, but actually it's more full-time when she's home in the holidays, you don't do that anymore, you stay away. I don't have time for TikTok, I very rarely look at TikTok, because I'm too busy. And I think,
00:48:13
Speaker
I'm really, I'm really heartened by that, when it comes to be my son's term to move into that phase, because I still see him on his phone a lot. And I think there's something for parents in knowing that all this, this, like many other adolescent things may
00:48:33
Speaker
there may be an element of it just being a phase. And they don't need to 100% panic that their kids' lives are destroyed and their eyesight's going to go because they're going to spend 100% of their time online and not get a job and be a complete waster. It's probably not true, but that's not how it feels in the moment. So your point about just doing anything we can
00:49:00
Speaker
to engage them offline in the interim to remind them of the importance of that is really important.
00:49:12
Speaker
Gosh, we have covered quite a lot. What we didn't cover, but I think I know what your answer is going to be, because you've talked about it already, is why teenagers are constantly taking selfies, and it is constant.
Appearance and Self-Confidence in Teens
00:49:26
Speaker
So my daughter's not on TikTok, but the way she communicates, well, she is on TikTok, but she's not there very often, but the way she communicates with her friends on social apps like Snapchat, et cetera,
00:49:36
Speaker
is by sending them a selfie, she doesn't even type anything or say anything to them, she just sends them a selfie and it's a reaction. She's permanently taking photos, tell me about that. Well it's not, I mean the selfie specifically is new but the phenomenon is not new, like teenagers have been obsessed with their appearance as long as they've been humans, right? True.
00:49:57
Speaker
The problem with it is that attractiveness actually does matter. When you think about it, there's a really... It's unfortunate, but it's true. You know, members of both sexes who are unattractive are less likely to get married. You know, people who are good-looking are more popular. They date more. They also achieve greater professional success or in higher wages. It's depressing. And kind of beauty discrimination starts early, so this is a sad anecdote. But if a report card
00:50:23
Speaker
has a picture of an attractive child than a teacher is more likely to interpret it favorably and assume the kid has a higher IQ and is more likely to succeed. It's horrible, right? But also I think kids personalities are being shaped by their friends during their teenage years and kids who develop social confidence when they're teenagers during this kind of critical window of their personality forming tend to carry their confidence later with them for life.
00:50:52
Speaker
So it actually does matter how kids look. I wish it didn't and it shouldn't, but it does. And so, you know, it's easy to sort of dismiss it, but actually, you know, if your child has glasses, letting, helping them get contact lenses, or, you know, if you can pay for fixing their dental situation, you know, braces or
00:51:13
Speaker
Invisalign and things are very expensive, but it's awful, but it's true that kids who have orthodontic treatment earn six to seven percent more as adults than those who don't.
00:51:24
Speaker
Isn't that crazy? So this stuff matters. Then you come to like acne. I mean, acne is obviously the scourge of teenagers and you know, most folk remedies don't help at all. So actually seeing a dermatologist is the way to go. So if you can afford these things, helping your child, you know, helping your ugly duckling become a swan can actually help them for life. I mean,
00:51:45
Speaker
which is yeah well I'd say I remember worrying about my appearance and confiding in my mom when I was young and she just always brushed it off as you know it's puppy fat it's this it's that you're beautiful inside all of that is really irrelevant when you're a teenager struggling with with body image issues or self-esteem issues
00:52:06
Speaker
You've just mentioned acne. We do have an episode with a lady who still has acne in middle age and she talks about exactly the same as you've just said about take it seriously. Don't indulge Mandy's hips are smaller than my mind type conversations. But if there's something you can practically do like fix teeth acne,
00:52:31
Speaker
hair, whatever it is for them. I know a lot of girls, they get really upset about body hair at a young age. And in fact, I've written about that on my blog, teenagers, parents of younger girls are quite rightly really destroyed about the thought of helping their child to remove hair from their body because everything about them is perfect. But if it's really causing self-esteem issues, it's really not a big deal. Yeah, I completely agree.
Conclusion and Resources
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:00
Speaker
Oh, Daphne, I could talk to you forever and I'm going to buy your book as soon as it comes out. Tell me when it's available in the UK and where people can find you if they'd like to connect. Yeah, so May 20th, it'll be available on Amazon. And I have a website, debunkingteenagers.com. There's a way to get in touch with me there. So yeah, I would welcome people getting in touch. I'd love to hear what people think about all of these issues.
00:53:27
Speaker
Fantastic. Is there anything else that we've not discussed that you think is a burning issue that people need to know about? I mean, there are hundreds, like I said, 200 fan interviews. My book is filled with topics, pretty much any topic you'll get me talking. My book is quite exhaustive, so it's sort of more of a reference guide.
00:53:46
Speaker
Like I do start with what I think are the top 10 issues so that people can then go directly to those if they want. But then I'm not sure it's a book you'd read straight through. It's more a book if there's something you're concerned about or thinking about. It covers pretty much every subject that I could think of certainly on the subject of teens. Useful. Yeah, a dip in and out book when you've got problems, because that's effectively what we do. We just go to Dr. Google as soon as we're stressed about something our child's doing. There we go.
00:54:12
Speaker
and we get all sorts of answers that may or may not be helpful. So that's a good starting point as a reference. Awesome. Thank you so much for talking to me today. It's been really, really interesting. Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it.
00:54:30
Speaker
Thank you to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say.
00:54:45
Speaker
If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat. And hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I am Helen Woods. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey.
00:55:15
Speaker
See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.