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As a Tree Bends, So Shall it Grow
44 Plays3 months ago
In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss the power of habits, how to break bad ones, how to teach your children to build good habits, accepting that you're a flawed individual, and striving for continual improvement.
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter return
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time, this show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called, The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying, proverb, or maxim, and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom that's relevant today. I'm your host, Patrick Payne, and with me as always is my co-host, Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you, man? I am doing great. How are you? Good, man. Excited for the holiday. This is a recording right around 4th of July, 2024. So if you're listening to this later on. Yeah, we- You guys doing anything fun? We realized, yeah, we got an old neighborhood party that's been going. This will be the third year they've been doing it and we're looking forward to it. It's kind of a little block party with a fireworks show and hot dogs and
00:01:24
Speaker
bouncy houses and all that good stuff. So hey yeah, kids will love that. We're just doing a little my my uncle's got a little shindig we're doing. So we're just kind of doing a low key thing with family this time this year, but we had kind of a townwide block party tonight and which is the night before 4th of July. And had like a car show ever brought their old cars and stuff. That was pretty fun. Oh, cool. I can definitely hear fireworks outside my house. So there's a Someone's having a party out there tonight. Yeah, people pregame it a little bit here, too. They started on the third. um So if you hear the popping in the background, that's what that is. um Cool, man. Yeah, we've got got an interesting proverb this week when you picked, right? um You want to that's right take us through it? um Yeah, yeah. So um so the the one that I found on our list here was
00:02:23
Speaker
as a tree bends, so shall it grow. um And as I was researching it, I wasn't finding that particular phrasing as much as I was finding this other one, as the twig is bent, so grows the tree. So same meaning, ah just different formulation. and And it's one of those pretty old ones. So it gets changed a lot by different authors. um There's something, I found something from like 1530, a man may bend a wand while it is green and make it straight though it be ne'er so crooked. ah So, you know, similar similar thought, but i'd I'd say Alexander Pope maybe is gets credit for formulating it the way that, or close to the way we do it. So, "'Tis education forms the common mind. Just as the twig is bent, the tree's inclined."
00:03:18
Speaker
So yeah, that's good. oh Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So I just, you know, when we're kind of picking our picking our profit was my turn. I just was looking through the the list and it just caught my eye. So, um, I don't know if I can think of any particular reason other than. I don't know, maybe I like tree stuff. I don't know. Yeah, trees are good. We're very pro-tree here on the Copybook Headings podcast, in case you were wondering. In case you were wondering where we stood on the tree question, in favor. I did our Pope. ah we've We've come across him before, haven't we? Yeah, we kind of had a little ah little streak of of doing some of his. I think we've done like three of them. Yeah. Three or four maybe at this point. Yeah. um He has a lot of really good ones, so.
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah. yeah what What did you think when i when I came up with this one? I thought this one was an interesting one, ah one that I wasn't super common ah familiar with. It's not super common that you hear all the time. um My initial understanding of it is um I guess it's that like when you're young, if you start on a certain path, that's kind of how the way you can end up. Is that kind of what you got from that? Or or am I off track on that? Yeah, I think that's it. And I think it applies in a lot of different ways. um Because like, you know, let's take the literal sense of this one. um You think of like,
00:04:50
Speaker
you know, how trees grow, thinking i thinking of them like on the coast, where the wind is always blowing, you see those trees just bent by the wind. um Or if you think of like in gardening, what's it called, espalier, where you bend a ah tree to run flat, like against a house or fence. You know, you can see those with apple or pear trees a lot. um And it also made me think of um made me think of this quasi-famous tree back where I grew up in Washington on on a place called Vashon Island. I had a friend who lived out there, so I visited a few times in high school.
00:05:37
Speaker
um You know, it's this, it's this island impuget sound. It's only accessible by ferry and it's nice little quiet, quiet town. But there is a tree there that has a, a bicycle like stuck in it and it's, you know, way up off the ground. Yeah. And this happened because someone leaned a bike up against this tree in like the fifties and it just, the tree grew around it and raised the bike up in the air. And so it's just this kind of.
00:06:08
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you know, famous, you know, somewhat famous ah local spot to visit and and and people check out stuff. And so yeah, it reminded me of that kind of thing. You know, I think you've you've probably heard or seen some similar things where with other items getting getting ah stuck in trees like that and having them grow around. So um so those are the kind of that that literal sense is what I was thinking of. And I think when we analogize the proverb to people, I think it can be, even in the physical sense, like how you carry yourself. If you walk hunched over all the time when you're a kid, when you're young and you keep doing it, you're going to be hunched over when you're older, you know, that. Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
what's it called, the the Dowager's hump right there at the back of the neck that people get, because they don't sit up straight. um that's you know That's a real physical thing that happens to people. um And then like like other things, habits you get into, things you do as a child reflect as an adult.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, this um this reminds me of an old ah like parable I heard Um, I can't remember where I heard it. Probably my dad told me or something, but, uh, the story goes, there's a, an old farmer working in his field and he's, you know, um, chopping some wood or doing something. And and his, uh, his ax handle breaks. And so he has this ax head, right? that That comes loose from the, from the handle of the ax. And it's a long way back to the to the barn, so he just sets it in the Y of of of the smallest tree and goes about his work and thinks, i'll grab it I'll grab it later. And then, you know, he goes home, forgets about it, goes about his work day after day after day, week after week, kind of sees this thing here, but I need to grab that one i at that the end of work today. Doesn't do it, doesn't do it, doesn't do it. Pretty soon, the tree starts growing around this axe head, right? Just like you said about the yeah about the bicycle.
00:08:11
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to the point where he can't get it out. And he's like, i with his hand, he's like, I can't pull this thing out. If you wanted to get out, he'd have to take a little hatchet or something, or a saw or something, chisel the thing out of there. And now it's a lot harder, a lot more work to get it out. So he's like, Al, you know, have to I'll have to get around to that. um
00:08:30
Speaker
Story goes, continues and continues. This tree grows up into this massive oak tree. And one day there's a big storm. and the winds start coming really strong, pushing this tree around, and it ends up just splitting right down the middle. and the whole tree just dies because of this axe head making it weak right along the center of the tree. And um you know the the story there is if you have something wrong, you know some little issue, some habit that's bad, something you know get take care of it soon before yeah it be it be big yourre the trunk of your habits grow around it. And that's that's what I thought of as this old story when when I first heard of this parable or this proverb.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard that one too. and And that came to mind for me as well. um That, yeah, that the sooner you get to bad habits, things like that, the better because it's it gets harder and harder until a point where, at least in the story, there's there's not, you can't fix it, right? Yeah. um So Um, and even, even like a while after he'd forgotten about it, it could have been removed had he got, you know, it would have been more work, but he could have taken a chisel or something and gotten it out of there and saved the tree. Yeah. But, you know, these, these bad habits or problems can end up turning into catastrophe if they're not dealt with. Yeah. Yeah. Um, trying to think of, I think, I think I've talked about this before. Like when I was a kid, I was, I was
00:10:09
Speaker
a bit of a sore loser when it came to like playing the board games as a family and stuff like that. And that's something I remember my, you know, my parents worrying about and trying to, to help me get through. And I think, you know, I think I have gotten through it. I enjoy, I enjoy the, uh, the occasional board game and don't mind losing at all. So, uh, but I think that was, um, That's something like, as an adult now, i yeah you run into people who never really learned to that one. And and it's um it's a really bad, it's a bad look, as they say, in in someone to to lose it like that, to to get hung up on things like that with, you see it a lot with people with their their team, their sports team loses and they they flip out and they really had no control over the outcome anyway.
00:11:02
Speaker
um and just being a real, in my view, negative characteristic um that is probably a lot harder for them to break as adults than it would have been when they were kids if they ah their parents, you know, identified that as something they need to work on.
00:11:23
Speaker
Is there anything, do you think of anything in yourself or people you know that that have that kind of experience? Yeah, I run into that sometimes with folks with their, it just seems like they they have kind of a, it can be embarrassing for them sometimes when you when you see someone with kind of that childish characteristic that they never seem to be able to get over or never seem to be able to grow past. It can be could be kind of, ah You know, but yeah, just embarrassing for him. and You're kind of like, man, like, it's kind of kind of rough to watch sometimes. But and what what made me wonder about this is, like you mentioned, you know, being a sore loser as a kid, pretty common thing. Your parents wanting to correct that of you. What what did they do to help you get past that? Because that's a tough thing with but parents, not specific just specifically that, but sometimes you notice little traits in your kid, you're like, man, we got to nip that in the bud.
00:12:15
Speaker
But then there's always the balance if you don't want to be too overbearing with the kid because because, you know, childhood is long, it takes a lot of years and sometimes they just need time to grow out of it. So, um what did they, how did they help you get through that or was it something else that helps you get over it. oh man and
00:12:33
Speaker
i'm trying to I'm trying to remember. I think a big part of it was just but the awareness of it. um And I think it maybe is something I grew out of to some extent. um And also I know when i was when I was older, especially when it came to like games, um you know, you do get to a point in life where you if you, if you're somewhat well adjusted, you realize that some of those things don't matter. And like the hang, be having fun with your friends is is the goal and not to win the game. And, and so you just kind of need to shift your, shift your focus and shift your, um your priority and in the activity, I guess. So, um, but I think part of it was just, you know, not,
00:13:19
Speaker
not quitting on it, you know, I don't think I don't think my family stopped playing games because I was, you know, they they just made me deal with it and get through it. and So I would guess that was it. off the After my dad listens to this episode, we'll have to see what he thinks and I'll follow up with him. but yeah Yeah, we need we need to get we need get Papa Stevens on here to tell us ah tell us what he did. Yeah. yeah
00:13:48
Speaker
um yeah's I wonder about a lot of this stuff with parenting. This is a good one that comes to mind, of course, with that because um You do want your kids to grow up trawl and straight and not crooked in some way and and it can be tough to to kind of figure that out and tough to know what what's just a natural bend of a you know to to go along with the analogy and what's something that is is cause for concern. um no Part of it and part of me I think is just teaching correct principles and doing it consistently over and over um and correcting behavior when it comes up. But I don't think it's always necessary to make a big deal out of it. When you know, because because it's especially for new parents, you'll see this all the time. Oh, no, little Johnny's doing this. and You're like, you know,
00:14:36
Speaker
Like more experienced people are like, yeah, man, like my kid did that forever. And then they just stopped, you know? So it's like, you don't need to panic about it, you know, until it's, till it's gone down a ways. And then maybe at some point there's a cause for concern. I don't know. But yeah, I think if you're teaching correct principles consistently, usually things kind of straighten themselves out. Yeah. Yeah. I think teaching correct principles, I think trying to, trying to lead by example, that can be, I think that's a really um important one. It's also can be exhausting, but but it's very important. The thinking of like the physical aspect in particular, like like my kids are pretty active, like running around so outside and we we like to foster that, but you know, trying to also be the the example of that, not just sending them outside, but but going out with them and and exploring and going on walks and riding bikes and all that stuff. Is that something that that you model a lot for your kids?
00:15:32
Speaker
Try to, yeah, that's huge, though, because like there's a huge difference we've noticed when we say, hey, kids, you're been in you're acting crazy in the house. go Go play outside versus, hey, let's all go outside. the the The reaction from the kids is night and day difference when you do that, when you're and you're going with them, when you're leading by example. That's hard to do, because you know parents have a million things to do. you know um yeah But if you're able to take the time to, I mean, sometimes it's even just sitting on the porch out there with them. not even necessarily playing their game, although that's, that's even better if I can do that. But, um, yeah, sometimes even just being out there and leading that leading by example, I think is, is really good. Um, yeah, I remember when my,
00:16:14
Speaker
When I was a kid, we would, you know, it wasn't every day, but we would do Sunday walks as a family in the evenings. and And now with my kids, we we go on walks just about every night. And that's, I think that, that shows like kind of the the generational thing you can kind of build on on a small, good thing. You know, if your parents didn't have a lot of time, but they had a enough to set a little bit of a good example that you can, if you have that more of that time, you can, You can build on that and take it to the next level. Yeah, not to get too dark or anything, but I was just watching an interview of some survivor of sexual assault when they were like a kid. And it struck me as like, when you're a kid, you're so... Malleable and influenceable and they don't know what's going on and they think they did something wrong. And it's like, that's partially why some of those crimes are so ugly and so heinous because the impact that it can have in listening to some of these survivors is kind of incredible because of the things that they had to deal with.
00:17:22
Speaker
um And some of them turned out, you know, remarkably, remarkably well and miraculously, at least the the one some of the ones that I talked to, not all of them um have that such a happy ending. But, but yeah, kids are kids are really, um you know, they're, they're bendy, like a like a sapling, you know, and they they can, they will go. I think this is a really good analogy for that because it really is it really is like that you can kind of bend them this way in that and if it's if it's a harsh bend for long enough it can it can warp the kind of the trajectory trajectory that they that they go. um One thing I thought too is um like even after you know kind of you're an adult though I think it's this is still relevant. um Are there I'm just trying to think of like habits that I have
00:18:10
Speaker
yeah ah Do you have any thoughts on like how you can like evaluate your your own, you know the things you do consistently, and and if there are things, how to how to how to change those? or what What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, you know I think a lot of it a lot of that is um just ah being around other people with with other experience and kind of ah being open to to feedback, keep being open to new things. like One thing that I've been working on like the last year, um You know, I'm in in my 40s, but one is like breathing through my nose more like that being a more natural um way to breathe, but you know, it's but we kind of ah
00:18:55
Speaker
We kind of train ourselves, I don't know if it's a cultural thing, just breathing through the mouth more, breathing up high in the chest and out through the hole the whole torso. And so, you know, it maybe it's a little woo woo here, I don't know, but for like trying to, you know, so making that conscious effort, but it is definitely more of an effort than it would be if, um, I just always breathe through my nose a lot, you know, even while like running and things like that, trying to exercise while breathing through the nose. So, you know, there's always stuff like that, that I'm, especially when it comes to like fitness and and stuff where I'm trying to break bad habits and build some new ones. So that's that's one that that comes to mind for me.
00:19:38
Speaker
The breathing stuff is a little woo woo, but it's something that I kind of believe in because it seems like there's a lot of people that do extreme things or are able to do incredible feats or even just not even just incredible, maybe just consistently above average that talk about breath work. I hear it over and over and over for through across many different disciplines, athletics, all sorts of things. Like I've done some martial arts that were like really into breath work. There's that guy Wim Hof, are you familiar with him? yeah um
00:20:09
Speaker
He does like these extreme cold while he'll get in like these buckets of ice or like frozen lakes and stay there for forever. And he credits a lot of that through for proper breath work. So I think there's something there. ah I don't know what and and maybe it hasn't been studied enough to have the science to back it. But just because it hasn't doesn't not hasn't been studied yet doesn't mean it's not, you know, there's not something real. I think people make that mistake a lot where they're like, oh, there's no studies that show that. It's like, well, yeah. and and There's no study until there is, you know you never know. Maybe nobody's just taken taking this on yet. Yeah, exactly. There's there's no study until there's you know a financial motive to run a study. So that's kind of the right exactly part of it. And sometimes there's a financial study against running it. So then it's like, that's going to sit sit in the sit in the inbox for a while. Yeah.
00:21:03
Speaker
Um, what about you when it comes to like forging new habits, trying to break old ones? Like, um, what have, what have you done recently?
00:21:16
Speaker
Um Yeah, it's it's it's tough. Um trying to keep things top of mind just um thinking about them I think has been helpful Which is hard to do when you're busy because you can you'll revert back to what you're what you're used to but maybe like reminders having notes up things like that have have helped me but You know, we talked about childhood and and development of child's of children this is When you're trying to break a bad habit this kind of be you becomes Keenly apparent like that, you know, maybe I'm doing this because I've been doing this for so long My tree has really grown this way and now I'm trying to straighten it out and it's extremely hard. So um Yeah, it's it's really important to teach kids properly man, like really really important for everyone listening um and Because you're setting them up for for for a hard time if you don't I mean
00:22:13
Speaker
I know a lot of people nowadays, you mentioned like fitness and health and a lot of people are battling nowadays with, ah you know, being overweight, obesity is through the roof, that sort of thing. But ah I think a lot of that starts with how their parents fed them when they were kids. You know, I know some people that just it was normal for them to just have candy all the time or junk food or this and the other. And then other families aren't that way. And even if you're trying to get healthy as an adult, but you've been, you know, M&Ms are in your house always, it's like, that's gonna be, yeah it's gonna be tougher for you, you know, and it's not necessarily your fault, but it is, it is your problem now, right? So like, it's kind of, kind of rough. Yeah, I feel that one. That's when I'm always working on trying to find new methods of attack on, on eating better and everything. And it's funny because
00:23:02
Speaker
We ate pretty pretty well like ah as a family when I was a kid, like you know kind of family where we had dessert once a week right like on on the weekend or something like that. um Didn't have a lot of junk food around, but I think what I did is when I when i was old dev when i was out on my own, I just like a switch flipped like I didn't really internalize the the why of it. And so I just started like, Oh, I've got money and I've got ah freedom, I've got agency and I'm gonna buy. Yeah, I'm gonna buy whatever I want. And, and so that was that was a hard one to, to, you know, by the time like, through the rationale of it caught up with me, I was already kind of ingrained in that.
00:23:46
Speaker
a bad habit of of of the junk food and stuff. So um so that's that's ah I guess another good lesson for as you are teaching your kids, everyone, like make sure that they know the why of the good things that you're helping them do. Because you could be doing lots of great things, but maybe quiz them every now and then and find out if they really get it. Yeah, that's a good, really good point. And I've i've had ah kind of similar experience when you get out on your own, it's like, I'm free, now I can do whatever I want. And a little bit of that I think to to an extent is normal.
00:24:23
Speaker
oh i yeah My kind of strategy behind that is as as my kids get to that age, the goal is to try to wean them off of ah being a child kind of slowly, right? You give them more responsibility little by little, whereas by the time they're 18, it's not such a harsh stark difference where they're just out on their own. um I'm not to that point, so time will tell to see if it works or if I'm just blowing smoke over here. I don't know, but ah that's that's good that's our strategy anyway, and hopefully that yeah hopefully that mitigates that to a degree. Yeah.
00:24:58
Speaker
Okay, so we normally talk about these proverbs and, you know, the gods of the copybook headings and the gods of the marketplace, which is kind of the antithesis to that, like what society tells you. does do you Do you think society agrees with this one? Or do you think they're they're teaching us contrary contrary values to what this is saying? Well, I think there's there's a big push, a big message that you don't need to change anything about yourself um that yeah might be reasonably changed or or should be changed, like, and just, you know, accept, accept everything about yourself. And, and I think that especially like that, when that's pushed on like young people, I think a lot of times ah those negative
00:25:47
Speaker
consequences are down the road. And so in the moment, it's not necessarily a bad ah strategy, because it's like, well, if you when you're when you're overweight and you're 20, you're still 20. And you can still move around, you're still, you know, but when you're 40, and your your needs are terrible. um maybe maybe that wasn't so good to yeah to ah to go with that and just not try and change anything. So um yeah so so i think it's I think there's a push out there to to get people to just, for some reason, not not try to improve things that need to be improved, not to straighten out that the branches that are that are crooked.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah, I 100% agree with that. In fact, I was just listening to like an interview recently with someone who is a recovering alcoholic, and they were talking about going to AA meetings, and and they were like, it's so liberating to just be like, yeah, man, I'm kind of a piece of crap. But like, it's okay. And we kind of all are, you know, in in a way, and it's it's very authentic. Um, there's nothing worse than an inauthentic person who tries to pretend like there's nothing wrong with them, you know? Um, but yeah, just admitting, yeah, I suck in in so many ways because I'm just a flawed human being, but like, that's all right. You know, it's just, you know, and so that's what people going through, you know, alcoholism have to do. They have to be like, look, I just, I have no control in this area of my life. So I have to cut it out entirely because I can't drink in moderation. I can't have a beer. It's not, it doesn't work for me.
00:27:19
Speaker
And so yeah they just have to get real honest with themselves about it. And and and man, it's it's so refreshing to hear people talk like that after, like you mentioned, a society that's like, oh, everyre you're just fine just the way you are. It's like, well, no, we're all we all kind of suck in so many ways. yeah the The right attitude isn't I don't suck. The right attitude is I i suck and and and I'm working on it. But but but you know it's OK. Like we all kind of do. and And we're all trying to get through this together. so Yeah, I think you're 100% right on that. Society's really pushing lately that don't fix anything. You're perfect, you know, and you know, obviously nobody is. Yeah, I think there's, um it's kind of a taking something that is a good message a little too far where like, you are
00:28:07
Speaker
you are a person with value is is a yeah good and true message. yeah um You're important to other people. um you know I think you're important to God, but but then you take that, well, because you're important to these people, because you have value, you' you don't like nothing you do matters really, right? like Regardless what you do, you have value. Yeah. um And so you don't need to do good things. Like you can do bad things, you cannot take care of yourself, you can not be nice to other people, be good to other people. Like, so it's just taking something, a good message and then kind of twisting it.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we see that all the time now. Whereas, you know, it doesn't matter if you're physically beautiful on the outside or not, it's what's on the inside of the couch. And then that, which is very true, warped into, you know, there's no such thing as beauty or or Yeah, you know, there's like, there's no, you know, everything's the same, something that's clearly hideous is the same as something that's clearly beautiful. Talk about a building or or a painting or, or a person or or what have you, like it's, it's, ah yeah you know, you see people intentionally being ugly. We've talked about this before. But um yeah, I think that's, that's totally true. um And hopefully this, you know, we're we're fighting back a little bit but about that, because this is ultimately, I think, a podcast about
00:29:35
Speaker
um At least in part self-improvement, right? We want to understand good principles so that we can apply them in our lives and become better people. um And to become a better person, you kind of have to admit that you aren't perfect. You can't get better if you're perfect. Yeah, that's the whole point of Proverbs, right? It's to to help you identify blind spots in your life and and improve. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, hey, man, this is a fun one. I i i like this one. This is a really good one. As a tree bench, so shall it grow. Remember that one, guys. And thanks so much for for listening, everybody. And happy 4th of July, everyone. happy Happy birthday, America. We love you. All right. Yeah, that's great. All right. Take care, buddy. We'll see you next week. All right. We'll see you. Bye. There are only four things certain since social progress began.
00:30:29
Speaker
that the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mind, and the bird pulls Bandit's finger, goes wobbling back to the fire, and that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin, as surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the coffee-walking idiots, Terrible.