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Those Who Can, Do; Those Who Cannot, Teach
45 Plays3 months ago
In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss developing competence in a given field, the importance of being cautious when taking instruction from others, and having the humility to recognize your own limitations.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter returned
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello everybody. And thank you for joining us for another episode of the copybook headings podcast.
Inspiration from Kipling's Poem
00:00:33
Speaker
If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called the gods of the copybook headings. And every week we take an old proverb saying or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's any ancient wisdom in these old sayings. It's still relevant today.
Hosts Introduction and Personal Stories
00:00:49
Speaker
I am your host Patrick Payne. And with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how are you doing, man? Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? Doing okay. Well, we've got a full house here. Well, not that full because my sister and her kids were here a while back. That was a full house, but we've got yeah my mom staying with us, which makes it seem, you know, we got visitors. So that's a, it makes it fun. But yeah, how you been? Good. Yeah. It's been good. It's still, still hot here. Took the kids to the splash pad today and nice cooled off a little bit. And so, uh, so we got pizza for dinner after normally that's a Friday night thing for us.
00:01:27
Speaker
Okay. Pizza, pizza and a movie family night. And so I'm all thrown off because it it feels like it should be Friday now. And, uh, so tomorrow it's going to be messed up for me, I think, but yeah, it's weird how little changes that the routine can, can, can throw us off. We, we would, uh, we would usually do, we we haven't done this in a while, but we would do like family movie night where we'd like lay down blankets and from the TV on the carpet and we'd either make pizza or get pizza or something. And then kids would eat it. And yeah anyway, I should do that again. That was fun. Yeah, we tried to do that. my My sister and her family did that, and so we took you know took that from them. Sure. Heck yeah. People do it, but it's it's a lot of fun. Heck yeah, steal those steal those traditions and make them your own. Yeah.
Exploring the Proverb on Teaching and Doing
00:02:09
Speaker
Well, we got an interesting ah proverb this week. This is one you selected. You want to tell us about it? Yeah, yeah. um You know, back to school season is upon us. Yeah. I thought this was appropriate.
00:02:22
Speaker
those who those who can do those who cannot teach. Yeah. um Yeah. I don't know what the teacher's gonna feel about this one. But well, I hope by the end, they'll feel okay. I don't I think this Yeah, it's definitely taken right at face value as as being very critical of teachers. um It's kind of a funny one. I think that's why people remember it. And everyone's had a teacher that they you know, didn't love, I think even teachers have had teachers that way. um And then there's, you know, the, I think it might be, ah I think it might have been a Woody Allen adaptation, but I remember seeing it in and School of Rock with Jack Black, which is, you know, those who can't teach teach Jim. So, adding on top of that one. So yeah, I just ah thought this was a good one. And because also I will be going back to school to teach
00:03:21
Speaker
my, my yearly class this fall at at the local university. And so, um, so this is a little bit of ah a joke for myself here. Nice. What are you teaching in Latin? Uh, technical writing. Technical writing, okay, cool. Which is the day job, essentially. i'm I'm kind of in a little niche of of technical writing, but um I teach it more generally, just kind of senior level writing before these students who are, most of them are actually audio production majors, and I have not had them listen to the podcast because I'm afraid of what they'll say about our audio production.
00:04:01
Speaker
um maybe i'll make it extra credit and they can come give us some pointers i don't know hey i like it yeah but yeah before they go off into the into the world um it's kind of a way to brush up on their spruce up their writing a bit and and get out there so nice that's what i'll be doing sounds good so in your case you don't fit into this because you do technical writing and you're going to be teaching technical writing so technically you're uh you you You don't fall in this camp.
Teachers as Practitioners
00:04:30
Speaker
Well, yeah. And I think I think a lot of this is why I don't think teachers will be too mad at us because I think a lot of teachers fall into this camp. A lot of a lot of people who are teaching their subjects are are pretty knowledgeable in their subjects or have an aptitude. um And so it's ah it's a natural thing to teach it. So, yeah, that's I hope. But I hope I hope that I, you know, fit fit the the bill of being
00:04:57
Speaker
the expert teacher here and being able to actually do the writing myself. So if you feel that way, why do you think this saying became what it is? How do you think it gained popularity? Or or do you think there's some truth to this? Or um why do you think it resonated? um I'm trying to. So one thing I didn't was not able to to dig in and find is exactly like the context of this, of this quote, and you know, I'll have to go back and read it because it's from the play. It's from George Bernard Shaw, a 1905 play, I think, Man and Superman. I think you know, very Freudian. Yeah. um And I, and I'm not, you know, I haven't read that one. I haven't seen it. And so if I were to go back and look, it's hard to say when when something like that is plucked out of literature, it's hard to say what the context was to the author.
00:05:51
Speaker
mean it literally did a character say it who's not a relatable character like so so i'm not sure what the context of this one is but um i think i think um i think it's just relatable in that everyone has had a bad teacher um someone who and and probably a lot of some teachers do get into it just because they don't know what else they're gonna do you know um people go to college like well I guess I'll be a teacher um and they never really have expertise they never take like they're young and so they don't have the expertise in in a particular field
00:06:31
Speaker
um And also I think there's maybe an aspect to ah people who go back to teach or who teach, it's it's kind of saying like you're removing yourself from from the arena, so to speak, from yeah um you know people who are out there making their living off of off of the thing that that they're doing, as opposed to like stepping away from that and telling others how to do it and getting paid to not do it. you know I think that that's another aspect of it. Yeah, and in I agree with that. And I think that the you know maybe the what the original context was when it was first written probably is not even
Academia vs. Industry Experience
00:07:13
Speaker
super relevant anymore because it's taken on a life of its own. And it's been repeated so many times that it has it has its own meaning and in the mind of the you know the people and the who who repeat it. So so yeah, I i i think ah that
00:07:28
Speaker
People probably have brought this on because they've had a teacher that they didn't like or where they thought was was not as competent as they'd like. I had an experience not too long ago where, because I used to work in in the in the healthcare field is doing doing sales, and ah I heard from one of, we had like a doctor who worked for our company. as like a consultant you know and to make sure that we are medicine and our stuff well this is software, but to make sure everything was proper. And someone said something about something a professor had said, one of the new doctors had come in and said something and they were just like, those professors do not know what they're talking about.
00:08:09
Speaker
They're in there because they don't know how to practice medicine, you know all this stuff. And they were just going on and I'm like, I'm not a doctor. I don't know anything about this. But that was was ah some of the the opinions there and like this this general sentiment that the people who are in the industry working are the experts and then the people who couldn't hack it or or for whatever reason ah didn't make it, then they go and just get a teaching job. So is that is that kind of the the impression that you've gotten from this this saying a little bit? Yeah, definitely. And it does make me wonder, you know like like you said, it has a life of its own now, but I do wonder 100 plus years ago, I mean, even high school was a very different thing as far as rigor goes.
00:08:55
Speaker
Um, and there was more rigor and and yet less credentials, right? Like you think of, um, you know, I mean, it goes, it's further back, but like little house on the Prairie type thing where the qualification to teach, you know, high school and lower, it was basically to finish high school, right? Like you've, you've gone through everything. And now. you're 18 and you're teaching all the other kids. yeah but you know But you had to pass your tests and and they didn't take it easy on you passing your tests. so um But just like just that different context, we're seeing when you see like those old Harvard admissions tests from back then where it has all this Latin and Greek and all all this other stuff that you had to memorize just to get just to be a freshman, just to get in.
00:09:44
Speaker
and so can So yeah, it makes me wonder like what but the context of this was where, you know how how bad ah bad things were back then compared to compared to now. and um but and But I think there is a difference between the way this is perceived with like you know secondary teaching or something like that versus college. um I think it's dealing with two different things. And so I think about it a lot with the college. like people who never go into industry, they go straight from there their PhD into teaching and they never get hands-on, or the people who do, um who who know their business, who who know their stuff, maybe they retire early and say, hey, I wanna do something, um maybe I'll teach. And I don't know if you had any professors like that. My, in in the humanities but where I was, it tended to be mostly people who were,
00:10:40
Speaker
you know, professional academics, they didn't write first. yeah Yeah, exactly. But I think in other places like the sciences, sometimes you see it more where someone, you know, maybe was out in the out in business and they decide, well, I want to scale things back and I'll go teach at the the university and they'll pay me peanuts. But there's some prestige there I can publish, you know, all that kind of stuff. So um but what what are your thoughts about about that with like university and industry and stuff like that. Yeah, this seems like it's definitely more of a fit in university as opposed to high school or elementary. It seems like the people who go into those younger teaching are people who have a passion for teaching. They want, and maybe and because of the age difference, you're you're not talking about teaching other adults, whereas in college, now you have these young adults you're teaching, but in high school or grade school,
00:11:37
Speaker
um There's kind of a, ah you know, maybe like a maternal instinct a little bit where you wanna, with a lot of these teachers who go into it, where they wanna take care of children, they wanna teach children, they wanna raise them up. um and And you might not get that, you know, at the older ages. And so I really feel like this saying applies, when people say this, I instantly think of a college professor, not necessarily a junior high teacher, right? Right. um Because also, the stuff that you're teaching in in, if you're an English teacher in high school, it's like those who can do, like do what? You know, like speak English, like write me be an author, you know, it's like you're just teaching you're teaching basic basically basic curriculum there. But yeah, I like what you said about the industry, because when you start specializing in college and you start going into these industries, that's where you can have this disconnect of, okay,
00:12:27
Speaker
I've been in college forever. i've I know the textbooks back backwards and forwards. I have my PhD. I'm so important, but I've literally never been a civil engineer, you know and I'm trying to teach civil engineering, or or for example. right yeah Yeah, or like you wouldn't want to you wouldn't want an entrepreneurship professor who had never started a business. Totally. You you
Entrepreneurship Teaching and Experience
00:12:51
Speaker
definitely want them to have that personal experience. that's that I've always wondered about that one. like That one always just makes me scratch my head a little bit, like like, oh, I got a degree in business or entrepreneurship, and you're like, um who taught it? like it's always just like you know because Because it's so relevant there, especially in entrepreneurship, because the if you're very successful in entrepreneurship, i mean you you can make tons of money. The sky's the limit as to how much money you can make as a successful business owner.
00:13:23
Speaker
and if you're unsuccessful i don't think i want to you teaching me but if you are successful why are you there yeah i yeah exactly and i i see that a lot with um with things that just look like scams right and yeah they probably are because it's like um you know people selling their programs online or something. This is my my stock investing program. Come buy it for $1,000. Well, shouldn't you be ah spending your time investing in stocks if you're so good at it? you know Why are you selling your program to people? You're going to make more money just doing your program yourself. so or Or see, I don't know if you have those up where you are, but around here, you see a lot of these like very homemade looking signs. They might even be like printed to look homemade, but it's like,
00:14:08
Speaker
real estate investor seeking an apprentice. Why do you need an apprentice? like Do you need them to bring a million dollars and you invest it for them? like what's so yeah like That kind of thing. like what Exactly. like why Why are you doing this? If you're if you're any good at it, um why are you teaching? and I think at the university, it's a little more so transparent that way because you can actually interrogate them that way. and it's It's a legitimate institution. and So there's the, you know, they they have that behind them, but you do wonder. You do. Absolutely. I've got a little insight on that real estate thing if you're curious. Oh, yeah. I used to, I used to do, I tried my hand at some real estate investing. I made a little bit of money, and nothing crazy. I didn't end up doing it. I considered maybe I'll do this full time. Didn't do it full time. So typically I think what I never used an apprentice or anything, but I think what they're doing is they're looking for
00:15:02
Speaker
off-market properties that are really good deals that they can come in and low-ball somebody and snatch up a property for next to nothing and then turn it on and flip it or fix it up or do whatever. So they're they're looking for off-market properties. Once it's listed on the ... Exactly. Yeah. They want someone to slog through the crap and make a million cold calls or whatever. That's usually what they're ... And they're like, I'll teach you the real estate business. Typically, these are people that don't even barely know it themselves. like There may have been in my book, but like just barely learning it, but they're like, I don't want to do this work myself. I'll pay someone, you know, 10 bucks an hour or something to make a bunch of calls or send a bunch of letters or whatever, whatever method they're doing. So that's done. Okay. Yeah, there you go. But yeah, I got off track. oh Yeah, that's that's different than that. um Okay, what what were we saying? Oh, yeah. So the industries. um Yeah, i'm I'm trying to think of what other ones like ah
00:15:57
Speaker
yeah okay so like You have to go to law school, so there's obviously law professors that have to know the law. Do they make more as a
Academic Teaching Without Industry Experience
00:16:05
Speaker
law professor than they would at like it like a like a law firm? Or is it just like a cushier gig? i't I don't know. because I mean, some of my friends I would definitely say make more as ah as a law professor. Depending on what kind of law you're you're doing and others, it would definitely not be the case. ah So I don't know. I don't know what the the draw is there. the A way to get noticed to be a judge. I don't know. Yeah. Teach law.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah. I'd love to ask some of our lawyer friends. We should ask for some of our lawyer friends. But yeah, there's there's definitely those industries that makes you make you kind of wonder, but you know I don't know enough about the industry to say it conclusively. But ah I think, ah what well what do you what do you think about the people who who truly do have like a passion for teaching? um What do you think they ought to do? Do you think they it's it behooves them to try to Gain some industry experience or or should you know, do you think you can be a good professor just going? Right from your being a student to being a teacher. Um, I I think you can I think you can be good at it just going right in because Um, you know my experience just being in the humanities you know where apart from teaching the the big requirement is like research and publishing and it's and that's kind of a racket in a lot of respects where um
00:17:31
Speaker
Like in the classics, which I did, um this was several years ago, it's probably gotten worse, but like the average like the average publication that a professor would put out would get like three to five citations or maybe even reads. Like it was just this insanely low number of people who will actually even read what you produce. And so it's not really important, it's not important to the humanity. and so um And so it is just kind of this these hoops to jump through. I think one place where sometimes they do a disservice to students who are also looking to follow in those footsteps is to be realistic about like, okay, what can you do with this?
Realities of the Teaching Job Market
00:18:20
Speaker
degree, sure you know, what kind of, what's the job market really like? And a lot of times I think a lot those professors have no idea, even within their own, even with academia, like they don't know the lay of the land because they've got tenure and they've had it for a while and they haven't had to pay attention. So, but I think you can still be a very good teacher. You can be a very good researcher and you're never, and for some things there is no industry for it. jureher There really is just that. And if you love it and you're good at it and you're good at teaching, I think it's, I think that's okay. I think it's good. Yeah. I like that you brought up that there's no industry because that's kind of how I, my, my degree, my degree was in political science and yeah there's like, you don't just, it's like, Oh, now I'm a political scientist. I'm going to go get out to the political science, uh, you know, company and they'll hire me. it's just Like a lot of people that get that they'll end up going into law school or something like that. So, and I even considered that myself and you know,
00:19:18
Speaker
Didn't didn't end up doing that and ended up ended up just kind of bouncing around and ended up ah in sales like who knows just kind of how it goes sometimes but uh But yeah, if you if you if if you truly loved it enough to where you wanted to work in that industry There are a few things you could do. I mean, you could go work in Washington or in campaigns or you know yeah various things and do some internships that I thought were interesting, but not not interesting enough to to make it my career. ah but But yeah, I think a lot of people, if they truly have the love and the passion for it, the the obvious path for them might be teaching. Yeah. And you know I think you need to find someone who's going to be honest with you about your your capacity to
00:20:04
Speaker
Because you know the top tier is who gets those kinds of jobs. And so you yeah to if you're not if you don't have what it takes to be that top tier, you kind of need to be honest with yourself and have someone who will be honest with you that maybe you need to try something else. But there's as far as teaching goes, there are still a lot more opportunities than just like the elite professorsship professorships and things. For sure, I was gonna say, like based on some of the professors I had, not all of them were top tier, I'll tell you that. Some of them were just there, because they had hung around long enough. Seems alike anyway. ah Yeah, it seemed like when I was when i was in in school, it seemed like, and looking around at PhD programs and things, um in in classics, like all the Ivy League had professors from Europe,
00:20:57
Speaker
And then like all the the top tier, like state schools and stuff had professors from the Ivy league. So it was always like you were, whatever school you went to, you're kind of guaranteed you were going to be a tier below whatever, whatever it was. Right. As far as yeah the job and of job you could get. I just thought that was kind of funny that, you know, the Ivy league isn't even staffed by Ivy league people. It's. It's people from Oxford and stuff. so That's funny. I didn't know that. Well, they have the fancy sounding accents. That makes them smarter. It does. Yeah.
Proverb's Societal Acceptance and Expert Skepticism
00:21:30
Speaker
um This is usually the time we talk about the the gods of the marketplace um and kind of the the what society thinks about these these proverbs. To me, it seems like this is one there where people tend to believe this one. I mean, I don't know what you think. Yeah, I think so. um and And in the informal settings, I think people you know how people have their eyes out for this like with with the grifters and stuff, right? like Yeah. People are skeptical of the person who's trying, especially if they're trying to sell you their knowledge and and sell you their teaching. Like, okay, how much like how much of an expert are you really? Like, you're selling me this fitness program.
00:22:15
Speaker
you better be You better be pretty good at it. You better you better look the part too. Things like that where... So yeah, I think people people do want to know, like are you doing this because you can't do it? Are you are you trying to do it because you can't do it yourself? Yeah. And fitness isn't even the most skeptical one in my opinion because that's easy to see as the guy jacked or isn't he as he ripped. yeah It's the money making ones that you mentioned earlier because it's like, all right, If it works so well, like you said, why are you selling this to me? Why are you wasting your time doing these little gum road videos if you're making millions doing whatever? you know is it Why is it worth your time? so that That raises some red flags. Yeah, the joke right the the joke about the guy standing next to the Lamborghini and it's a rented one. right yeah yeah He's trying to make it look like it's his mansion, his Lamborghini, and it's all just an Airbnb and a rental car.
00:23:07
Speaker
Exactly. And he's trying to get the Lamborghini by getting you to buy his thing so then he can get rich and teach you how to get rich. It's kind of a pyramid type shape there. Seems like yeah um I was going to ask something and then I just blanked. ah ah In terms of teaching,
00:23:33
Speaker
Okay, yeah, so like we we know how this applies to teaching, but what about just like ah not being a teacher necessarily, but just teaching other people or showing people how to do things in your own personal life? um Is there any application there? Because I was thinking maybe, Like if you have experience doing something, you know, you can show people or you can show them by example or you can teach somebody, but sometimes you'll run into people who are just wanting to tell you stuff, you know, and they don't really seem like they know what they're talking about. Yeah. um Yeah. So I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I do. I think
00:24:10
Speaker
yeah it's It's a phrase I've heard before, but I think maybe Clay Martin mentioned it when we talked to him, the see one, do one, teach one. um that That philosophy like in the military, like that's that's how you learn to do something, you do it, and then you teach someone else to solidify that knowledge. and i think and that That's a real phenomenon and it's it's valuable. so yeah The idea that you really like, you You cement a knowledge that you learn, ah a skill you learn by teaching it because it's a different yes way of approaching it. And so it just reinforces what you've already learned. so um So I think there is something to be said for teaching when you're not completely an expert, teaching as as part of the learning process.
00:24:52
Speaker
um Yeah, so i I believe in that. I love that, actually. That is a really good point that I hadn't thought of. But i mean even in like our church, we have little kids you know who will give a little talk or ah teach a little something to kind of help them understand the concepts too. yeah That's been done for a long, long time. um Giving your kid a responsibility to show his little brother or sister how to do a chore is, ah I think, a really good ah method for helping both of them learn it. The little one's learning it from the ground up. The older one is solidifying the stuff that they've learned. So yeah, and that's a great point. I love that.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and I do like, as far as, um, you know, there's, there's a lot of things to to teach your kids. There's a lot of, a lot of stuff like that. Maybe you're just kind of winging it as a parent. Yeah. And do can you think of of anything or being in that situation? like have you have Do you think you've solidified what you've learned or you were trying to learn it as you were teaching your kid? you know i mean Because there's that joke about just like teaching kids in general, like elementary school teachers, you just need to be one lesson ahead. right You need to right to learn a lesson or like homeschooling. right You just need to learn that lesson right before you teach it. um like what have What have you found as far as
00:26:20
Speaker
teaching your kids things that maybe you're not super solid on? Yeah, that's a good question. i i My mind went off on a little bit of a tangent here, so this is not exactly the answer to your question, but I wanted to mention this because um you know we have a lot of kids. Parenting is hard. We've read parenting books and follow people online who give parenting advice and try to try to get better at this. very difficult task that is raising children, right? And there's this woman that my wife likes to follow, and she and I kind of go back and forth. It's kind of like a joke in our family now because she's like, oh, so-and-so said this. I'm like, oh, no, not her again. um Because she's got like, I don't know, two or three little girls, like she's kind of more in your situation.
00:27:05
Speaker
And I have five boys and a girl and I'm like, bro, what is this lady going to teach me? like like She's like, this is what you do. I'm like, it's different, mom man. like It just is. And my wife's like, no, the principles are still you know valuable and still the same. and yeah And I'm just like, I don't know. like I don't think she's ever seen the kind of battles and bloodshed and you know chaos that we've seen with five boys. so um Yeah, i sorry, I went off. I've kind of forgot what you asked specifically. But yes, there's like this, this, ah it just brought that to mind because she is teaching parenting generally. But like my specific situation, I didn't think she had the chops or the, you know, the expertise to be to be telling me that but maybe I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But that's that's kind of was was my opinion.
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah. Sorry, you can repeat your question if you want. to the Yeah. um Yeah, like, are there can you think of things that you've had to like, maybe your your your sons needed to to learn something or in the moment you realized, oh, and they need to know this. I'm not so sure about it myself. Oh, yeah. You know, and and just kind of um how you approach that you just kind of ah I imagine just being a The dad thing to is to be authoritative and ah and come across as the expert regardless of whether you are the expert. That's that's kind of like my instinct with that kind of thing. But what ah what do you do?
00:28:39
Speaker
yeah you know i I really, my natural instinct is to not do that and to be like, you know admit I don't know things. It's never really bothered me. However, we do have some difficult kids that'll push back on you and be like, well, you didn't even know this. so why do you why do i Why do I have to listen to you? because and it's like so When you open the door to that, it can your mind starts racing. I don't know. This is going to come back to bite me because I told my kid I didn't know something rather than be like, nope, this is the way it is. um and But some of it's like, you know, kids losing his temper. You're like, you can't lose, not you, you can't be losing your temper like that. You got to keep control yourself. Well, my little brother did this to me and, and you're supposed to teach him how to keep control of his temper. And you're, sometimes it's wondering in my mind, I'm like, do I know how to do that properly? yeah Like, I sometimes lose my temper. And am i I qualified to be teaching this? And so, you know, sometimes I've had to like, look,
00:29:36
Speaker
inwardly a little bit and think, all right, when I've been successful at this, even if it's not often, or not as often as I'd like, what, you know, and so it's, you kind of, kind of learn together, I guess, similar to the, the older kid teaching the younger kid something, we're we're all kind of figuring it out. Yeah. But I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, it's a good one, man. That's kind of whizzed by. But that was an interesting one. Those who can do, those who cannot teach. Thanks. sir those ah That was an interesting one. And thanks for listening, everybody. ah Any any last last words for everybody before we sign off, Andrew?
00:30:20
Speaker
Yeah, just I hope we did right by the teachers out there. Yes. Keep doing what you do. Do a great job. And there are good teachers who will say that. There are great teachers out there. I've had some wonderful ones in my life. So be a good one for listening. and well We'll catch you next time. All right. Bye bye. There are only four things certain since social progress began that the dog returns to his vomit and the sow returns to her mind. and the bird-filled bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire. And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin. As surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the copy were hideous, with terror and slaughter at earth.