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Ep. 71: How to talk to your family about your sexuality
374 Plays1 year ago
Mike Parker tells the story of how he told his family he was gay. It's the warmest story, with a family who were totally accepting, and yet Mike's vulnerability is palpable. He takes us back to that age, when he was terrified of his parents' reaction, and takes us on that journey he went on.
This podcast is for anyone who is loved, but doesn't know how they're going to tell their family the truth about their lives. It's also for their parents; Mike gives tips on how to approach your child if you think they might have something to tell you, and how to support them when they do.
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens. Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast or want to hear more on parenting teenagers contact me on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr.
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Podcast produced by James Ede at Be Heard production.
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Transcript
Introduction: Teenage Kicks Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
You are literally telling someone who you are. For me, there's no room for someone to question that, like they either accept it or they don't. And if they don't, then they shouldn't be in your life. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
Talking to Parents About Sexuality
00:00:46
Speaker
Today's conversation will resonate if you're a young person struggling to know how to approach your parents to talk about your sexuality.
00:00:54
Speaker
Mike Parker is someone who I work with in my copywriting role and I recently had the great privilege of helping him to write his story of coming out when he was 21 years old. I got goosebumps listening to how he told his family he's gay and immediately asked him to join me on the podcast to tell his story to you.
00:01:14
Speaker
I think what he says might help you work out what you want to say to the people who matter in your life. Mike, thank you so much for coming today. Welcome to the podcast.
00:01:26
Speaker
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited. Me too. It was such a great chat and I had to refrain from taking you down a podcast interview when I was talking to you to write a piece for work because it was so personal and you told it so warmly and so naturally. I just thought, God, this guy is the perfect podcast guest for this subject and we've not covered it before, so I'm thrilled.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, great. Hopefully I can help a few people along the way as well. I know a lot of people in work did definitely enjoy it. So hopefully the wider community will as well.
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, they will. It landed so well. I was really thrilled reading the comments that you got from that piece. That was really nice.
Fitting In and Self-Esteem Issues
00:02:13
Speaker
So Mike, like with every guest, I'd love it if we could start with what life was like for you growing up, and in particular, how things were for you as a teenager, in general, before we even start to talk about sexuality issues. Yeah, of course. So I think
00:02:33
Speaker
For me, life as a teenager for me was pretty tough. I think most people go through a really awkward stage, which is absolutely normal as well. That's one thing I can't stress enough. When I look back on that, I always remember thinking to myself at the time, I don't fit in or I don't really have a tribe. I never really had a stereotypical, I was never part of a specific group. I always floated between different
00:03:00
Speaker
groups of people, I always had different kinds of groups of friends. It was always from different kinds of backgrounds as well. And I think for me, it was very, it was tough because I felt like I didn't fit in. I think the reason why I struggled with it originally was because I think it was that transition from primary school to high school. A lot of my closest friends in primary school all went to a different school. So that's when I, when I joined high school, like it was very, that was, which would have been around what age 12, 13.
00:03:28
Speaker
Um, I kind of, that's why I didn't really feel like I had my own, my own tribe. But then once I did find those right people, it was just really nice because again, they were all, they were, they were all like different ages and stuff. Like it was people in different year groups. It wasn't all just people the same age as me. Um, but it was kind of like, if I'm being completely honest, it was kind of like a little bit of like, kind of like the rejects group, like it was the kind of the group that didn't really know where they, where they, where they,
00:03:54
Speaker
where they fit it in. You're completely speaking my language because I think so many kids have been there and they're absolutely not rejects. And as soon as they get to adulthood, you can look at them and go, how are you a reject? That's madness. But we all feel like rejects at some point through our school years. I remember not finding my tribe until I started
00:04:18
Speaker
the equivalent of GCSEs. I was O-Levels in my time. That's because I did the work and I got decent grades and the people in my form group who would have naturally been my peer group, they just weren't those people. They were the sporty ones or they were the popular cool ones with boyfriends and girlfriends and I just didn't fit with them. I fitted with the squats and we're all really completely normal.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yep, that was that was me. I like I actually saw part of that tribe and one of my best friends who I still speak to today. He actually brought me into this other group where they were all the librarians and I actually became a librarian just to avoid being on the school playground during the day. So it meant that I could actually be in the library all the time because I felt like that was my safe space. Yeah, because I didn't feel like and I didn't I didn't I felt like I didn't look right. I was I was the
00:05:09
Speaker
slightly overweight, very spotty teenager as well. Like it was all the stuff that like, you just, it's like the worst nightmare in a teenager's head, like to look that way. So I'd never really felt like I, like I was, I suppose in a way, it felt like I wasn't worthy of being around like the cool slash popular kids.
Reconnecting with School Peers
00:05:27
Speaker
It's like I wanted, it's like I wanted to, I literally hid myself away. But in hindsight, I'm actually really glad that that happened to me because I met some of the nicest people and it actually put me in the right spaces as well.
00:05:39
Speaker
to feel safe, to be myself. As much as I wasn't quite myself at that time, there were still, obviously, secrets that were in the back of my mind, which we'll obviously lead on to. But it certainly was the stepping stone for that right path. Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point, actually.
00:05:59
Speaker
I'm trying to be a therapist and one of my massive learning curves has been when you're going through something hard or you have to make a choice that doesn't feel like it was the choice you had your mind set on originally. It pays to remember that that might actually be the thing you need to be doing and you'll look back on it and say, okay, that was exactly right for me at the time. I just couldn't see it.
Internalized Negativity and Peer Interactions
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:27
Speaker
As you're talking, I've got in my head the corridor outside my form room where we all used to sit, and everybody would sit on the floor waiting to be let into the locked room after break. And I'd turn the corner into that area and see them all there.
00:06:45
Speaker
so flipping at ease, in theory, in my mind, with each other. And our library was opposite on that corridor. And I just stuck into the library and watched until the form tutor opened the room. So hiding really resonates with me. And I bet so many people do that. And do you know what I want to say, even those really popular people who seem to be really confident and have it all going on,
00:07:12
Speaker
I've spoken to some of those people we've reconnected in the years since, and they didn't feel confident and happy either. Yeah, that's happened to me multiple times. The amount of times now that there's people that I would have deemed popular and cool, again, that's all subjective. There's no actual framework for those words, but it's the people that I would have put in those categories. They're people that wouldn't have even thought of speaking to me in school.
00:07:40
Speaker
And I would never have thought of even trying to speak to them because I assumed they didn't want to know me. But what the funny thing is, I think a lot of it was internalized. So it was a lot of my own negative thoughts towards myself. Whereas it wasn't actually them. I assumed they were being mean to me. I was one of the lucky ones. I've never actually been bullied or anything like that.
00:08:02
Speaker
Um, but I always assumed that that's, if I attempted to try and be a part of that group, that I would, I would be rejected. So I kind of rejected myself before they had the chance to, which is bizarre. No, no, that makes complete sense to me. It's a protective mechanism. You don't want to be hurt. You don't want to be ridiculed because that's the word that was going on in my head when you were saying rejected. And so you, you make yourself that person that's going to get rejected and ridiculed. Yeah.
00:08:32
Speaker
Because that's easier than taking it from them.
High School Fears and Dynamics
00:08:35
Speaker
Exactly. It's a lot easier to say. If you think you've got the control of it, it's like that makes it a lot easier. But yeah, it's just it's just funny looking back on those things because there's so many people now that I've no I still know from high school. I don't see them half as much as I used to. But when I do see them, it's always very pleasant. There's like it's like there's no
00:08:58
Speaker
there's no barrier there. Whereas I think when we first all left, like everyone's still very much thought in that high school mindset, like, Oh, even though we've left, you're still one of the cool kids and I'm not like, it's, it's what, it's like over 15 years now since I left high school. So for me, it's, it's, that's finally melted away. And it did, it melted away a lot quicker than I thought it would. I thought we'd go all go into adulthood and become pensioners and still be in those categories.
00:09:22
Speaker
Imagine. Which is really silly to think, but obviously when you're in high school, that's all you've ever known. You've never known the workplace officially. You might have a Saturday job, for example, or something like that, but it's so funny to see anything else beyond that.
00:09:40
Speaker
No, that makes complete sense to me and I would have been exactly the same. I haven't done a high school reunion, but if I did, I would have felt quite
Understanding Sexuality in Childhood
00:09:50
Speaker
intimidated by that crowd, the popular people. And the sporty crowd, because I was terrible at sport, I just thought they would have looked down on me. But interestingly,
00:09:59
Speaker
I connected on Facebook with one of them. I can't remember why. We had a bit of a chat and I said, God, I was such a geek in those days and I was so intimidated. I mean, listen to me, I'm putting myself down now. I'm still a geek and that's great and I own it and it's fine. But she said to me, oh my God, I wanted to be you. I didn't think I was anywhere near as good as you because you were so smart.
00:10:29
Speaker
Right. We were all in it. Yeah. I mean, what's, what's really funny as well is this, that's something similar has happened with me as well. Like I wouldn't ever say I was never like one of the super, super clever kids. I was always kind of like in the middle, but it was always the, for me, it was, um, it was more about like, I was very well behaved. Like I was never, I genuinely went through high school and never had a single detention.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah, because I was so like, I was so like, I think it was I think it was more from a fear perspective as well. Like I used to fear, like being like being shouted out on all of that. And so for me, it was just it's, it's just funny looking back on that now, because it's the
00:11:10
Speaker
just that I've lost my train of thought again. So it's just that. It's fear of being singled out and everybody have a look at you or getting something wrong. Well, we could go right in deep into our parents and how we were raised, but I definitely had a fear of getting things wrong. Yeah. Yeah. It's just thinking about it. It's just so funny because it's all those memories that you kind of
00:11:36
Speaker
You kind of put them to the back of your mind. Now it's like just having this conversation. It's like this flood of just all these memories. Like, and what's funny is like, it's not, they're not bad memories, but at the time, like they, like at the certain memories I think of now where it's like at the time they were so daunting and scary. Whereas now I'm actually kind of glad that all of those things did happen.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. Because it's character building as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Well, all of that stuff makes us who we are. Yeah. Okay. So thanks so much for sharing that. Honestly, I know already people are going to go, Oh God, yeah, that's me. So let's talk about sexuality.
00:12:18
Speaker
I'm firmly heterosexual, and I don't know very many gay people well, which is weird. I don't know why, but I don't. And so I might get some stuff wrong. So correct me, because this will be a learning curve for me and any other parent that's listening that is thinking, shit, I think my child might be gay and I don't know what to do. What I wanted to ask was, when did you first know that you were gay? But I realized that that might be a very binary
00:12:48
Speaker
day I didn't and the next day I did and that might be completely wrong so was it was it a gradual sliding scale or did you just know? Yeah so I think it's obviously different for everybody so you can't listen to one person's story and think well that doesn't match me so I'm obviously there's something wrong with me or anything like that okay it's completely different for every single person but for me I think understanding my sexuality so I've kind of
00:13:17
Speaker
again, looking back now, I think I knew when I was about nine years old. Okay.
Generational Acceptance of Sexuality
00:13:22
Speaker
But it wasn't, obviously I wasn't, it wasn't like a sexual thing then. It wasn't like, it wasn't about attraction or anything like that. It was just more looking back now. It's obvious that the certain things that I was, that I liked to do reflected the sexual, my sexuality, what my sexuality was going to develop into. Okay. So it's things like, um, really funny examples. I think things like I used to be obsessed with, um,
00:13:47
Speaker
like action figures, like action men, all that kind of stuff. Okay. And I think what's funny, and I can't say this is a hundred percent, but this is just my take on it. I think because I was so obsessed with them, I used to think I wanted to be them. It was actually me. I was actually attracted to them. Like it was, it was that kind of like, I was, I would say like kind of like besotted with them in a way.
00:14:12
Speaker
Um, and it was the same when I used to go to like kids' club on holidays. Like I would always want to be like, if there was like, say a man and a woman do it, like there was in the kids' club, like that was running it. I'd always want to be around the guy, but then I think what's funny is like people just assume, Oh, well that's because obviously it's a boy. He wants to do boy things, which, which is the case sometimes, but also there is that possibility that it could be because obviously at some point.
00:14:40
Speaker
that person's going to grow up and want to naturally be with a man or a woman. That's my take on it anyway. I don't know how many people would agree with that, but from my perspective, that's definitely something to consider. Yeah. You just attracted to male energy. That makes complete sense.
00:15:02
Speaker
As you're saying that, I'm thinking that could get quite confusing for some kids because the stereotypical instinctive response of a parent might be to think, he wants to hang around with the guys, he's an alpha male. Exactly. Which again, it might be true, but I just think it's important for people to realise that it's not as black and white as that. There are multiple other reasons in there, but also it's
00:15:32
Speaker
I don't want to make, I don't want to make people think like they're like something's like a spiral in thought now, like where it's like, Oh, well, something that once felt so simple. Now there's so many of these aspects I need to consider, but it's just that I think my point with this is that's to me, the proof that people are born gay. Yeah. Like it's not, so it's not about upbringing. It's not about what you're exposed to or any of that other rubbish that you see. Like it's just.
00:15:58
Speaker
It's a fact. I'm saying this as a person who is gay. You are genuinely born that way. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's an important point to make. I don't know what your perspective on this is, but I see a lot of teenagers and I hear the way they talk.
00:16:16
Speaker
And I feel like they've got that pretty well-embedded now. I don't think there's an awful lot of the culture that was around, I don't know how it was when you were a teenager, but when I was a teenager, homophobia was huge. It was just the norm. Whereas I feel like today's teenagers are educated enough and really understand that, that it's not a choice. Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:45
Speaker
What is really, really nice, like I've got nieces and nephews and like they're in school and it's just, it is kind of like, what's funny is the gay kids now are considered the cool kids. Especially with the girls, like most girls always want a gay best friend, like that's very stereotypical, I know. I've been subject to that many times where obviously it's men in the nicest possible way.
00:17:11
Speaker
but where I've met a random girl on a night out and she's been like, Oh, okay. She's like, Oh, you want to be, Oh my God, I've always wanted a gay best friend. Let's be friends. Okay. But, um, but yeah, I think absolutely like, I think times have definitely changed for the better. Um, it wasn't too bad when I was at school. It was just more, it was more words back then. Like there was never really, um, obviously this is purely just in my kind of like my school. Um, but there was never like any actual homophobic, like,
00:17:40
Speaker
Nobody was ever beaten up or anything like that. But it was always words, like people would use certain words that were thrown at me and my best friend at the time. Because he was always a lot more, if you want to say, obviously gay, whatever that means, whereas everyone would say because he was a little bit more effeminate, like he was more obviously gay. But again, that's a complete stereotype in itself. I'm mostly gay.
00:18:05
Speaker
He was, yeah. Yeah, because actually, I know, I know a feminine man who would who are not gay, or would say they're not gay. So yeah, exactly. So it's just this, this is the thing like society will always try and put a label on you. But it's just like, if you want to be, if you want to be the most flamboyant guy in the world, that doesn't mean
00:18:26
Speaker
that you're getting, but it also might mean that you are, and that's absolutely fine. I think what's nice is it seems to be moving in the right direction. Well, what you're talking about is people engaging with other people and getting to know them as people, as opposed to, like you said, getting labels out. And I think that's a massive
00:18:48
Speaker
change that isn't going to happen overnight and hasn't happened in my generation. But I think maybe the younger generation now are putting that right. Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people underestimate young people these days as well. Then they get a bad rep in the media, especially for a lot of things. Whereas it's like things like acceptance and things like that, like around anyone that's considered diverse. Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
I think it's massively improved and that's down to them specifically. If they could decide tomorrow that they don't want to take on all of these new things and they could reject it straight away, but the majority of kids today just accept it and they are learning and they're taking it on and they're realizing that being
00:19:39
Speaker
archaic with their thoughts isn't the future. No, it's really good. So I want to understand, so you've told me the story about telling your family, and we're going to come to that in a sec, but did you tell anyone else before you spoke to your family?
Coming Out as Bisexual
00:19:59
Speaker
So I never told anybody that I was gay, the first person that I actually said those words to was my grandma, as we covered in the story.
00:20:09
Speaker
Um, but I, so my support network after, um, so after, after I left high school, so it was around, right around the age of 21. Um, again, there were a lot of people that I've worked friends with in high school, but obviously there was more people I'd met, um, in college at this point as well. So again, a different kind of mix of people. So from people from, it wasn't just people from the same kind of area, which was really nice. It kind of like broadened my horizons a little bit. Um, but yeah, so my,
00:20:37
Speaker
The first thing that I did was I said to that group of people that I was bisexual, because for me at the time, I saw that as like a, it was a bit of like a gateway into it. So it was like, I'm not fully gay, but I'm a little bit. That's, that was, that was my very naive way of thinking of it at the time. Um, it felt like, it felt like a safe kind of like, like one foot in, one foot out kind of the way of doing it.
00:21:03
Speaker
Just to test the waters. My thinking around that was, if anyone says, what do you mean? You're like men as well as women. I'd be like, well, yeah, but I like women more. You could run away still if you needed to. Yeah. So it was kind of like a tester, which at the time helped. Luckily I didn't have, again, because obviously I was friends with the right people. And I think that's always a telltale sign that if you have, if you're friends with anybody that kind of reacts very badly to it, you are literally telling someone who you are.
00:21:33
Speaker
For me, there's no room for someone to question that. They either accept it or they don't, and if they don't, then they shouldn't be in your life, end of story. That's a sound bite. I'm keeping that. That's going in the intro. That's what I want kids to know, and it's so hard going back to what we were talking about with never feeling accepted.
00:21:53
Speaker
we're kids become people pleasers. Yeah, that's how we learn to be people pleasers. And I've only just learned that. What am I 56? I've only just learned if someone doesn't accept who I am, they should not be in my life. That's a great quote. Yeah. And it's there's no room for like, there's no room for maneuver that with that either, in my perspective, like, I'm very, I am very caught throat like that. And I think, because, but also, I think yes, to be fair, like, I think because I've never really had to do that with anybody.
00:22:23
Speaker
I've never, I've always been lucky enough that people have just accepted it. Yeah. It's very easy for me to say if someone doesn't accept it, cut them out because I've never actually had to physically do it. No, it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's certainly something like I would definitely say to anybody, definitely live by that because you only get one life. The life, the life, your life is your life. It's not going to go away. No matter what anybody who may be against it might say, it's not going to go away. It is a part of who you are. Um,
00:22:52
Speaker
but it also doesn't have to define who you are either. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it goes back to what we were saying about getting to know people as people rather than stereotypes. Yeah. Okay. So you've been through college, you've told people that you're bisexual and that was your way of kind of getting more of your whole self-accepted by the people around you. Yeah.
00:23:16
Speaker
When it came to telling your family, tell us a little bit about how you were feeling before that, how you built
Coming Out to Family: A Personal Story
00:23:24
Speaker
up to it. Did you have any false starts? How were you feeling? What was going on for you then? So it was the strangest day of my life in a way because it came out of nowhere. So for more context of the story, so my parents were on holiday.
00:23:44
Speaker
they'd gone to Singapore for my dad's 50th birthday. And I decided to stay at home because I had college. So as much as I would have loved to have gone to Singapore. So I was at home, I was home alone. And there's just, I just remember sitting at the dining room table. And it was a random Thursday. And I thought to myself, do you know what, I'm ready. I'm ready to just be honest about this because I had
00:24:09
Speaker
So being completely honest, I'd already downloaded the Grindr app. So that's where you chat to people online and all that kind of stuff. I was already kind of living a secret life behind my parents back and all of that, which at the time it suited like it was fine. Like I was, and I did that for about a year. So I did that. Yeah, it was, it was around a year, maybe a little bit less than a year. And I'd started to meet people on there and some of them, like I'm still, like there's one or two that I'm still friends with today.
00:24:39
Speaker
Um, where it was like, it was just like that kind of support network. Again, people that are like-minded that are going through the same stuff. Again, back then there was so many people, similarities to me in the early twenties where that, that was all they had. Like this, this secret community in a way. Um, and I was just ready to kind of like, I thought I was just ready to kind of just be like, I need to be more honest about who I am. Um, so I remember sitting down at the diamond table and
00:25:06
Speaker
I rang my grandma, who's sadly no longer with us, but she was my rock with this. And I just rang her up and I was speaking to her. And then I can't remember word for word what I said to her, but she kind of knew something wasn't right on the phone call. And then she just paused and she just went, are you trying to tell me you're gay, love? She's very northern. If you're a Coronation Street fan, you could literally grab my grandma and put her in the center of that show and she would fit right in. You wouldn't even question it.
00:25:36
Speaker
I love the sound of your grandma. She's very like a mix of like Blanche and Deirdre Barlow, if you know the characters, like she's very, very, yeah. But she just, she just pauses, just went, are you trying to tell me your gay love? And I just went, yeah. And like, just that moment, like, I think what I really appreciated with that was the fact that she just asked me the question. Like she kind of knew
00:26:01
Speaker
It was like she, she read, she kind of, I say read the room, obviously it was over a phone call, but obviously she knew me inside out. She kind of, she could tell by the way I was speaking that I, I was ready for her to kind of meet me there and ask me that question. Cause for me to say, I want to tell you that I'm gay. That was, that was really hard to say the words. Like it felt very, cause it as much as such a short snappy sentence.
00:26:24
Speaker
those words, once you say them, there's no going back. It's really hard to spit out. I'm wondering, actually, do you think your grandma was nervous asking you? Because I'm thinking about it from a parent's point of view, the parents who might be listening, who may be thinking this is what their child wants to tell them. Is there a wrong moment to blurt that question out?
00:26:48
Speaker
I think, I think the really important thing is I think one, no, I don't think my grandma was nervous because she wasn't like that at all. She wasn't, she didn't really have that much tact. Like she wasn't, she wasn't very, I'd love to think that she really thought about that, but she probably just, she probably just thought of it. It probably came straight into her and she's just like, are you trying to tell me you're gay? Like, just get on with it. Because like, there's no, like no S and graces whatsoever, which, which works sometimes for some people. But I think if, if it's something that like, if there are parents out there that are,
00:27:17
Speaker
wondering about their child and how to approach it. All I would say is just make sure you create a safe space. Just make sure they know it's okay to talk about it. And if they are, that they know that they can speak to you about that. There's so many ways that you can do it. Even just having a TV show on that's got gay people in it that are kissing and the way that you react to small things like that.
00:27:42
Speaker
My friend, his parents, they would openly see something like that, like a kiss, let's say, on Coronation Street. He's just using that as an example. And they would openly say harsh comments towards that kind
Creating Safe Spaces for Children
00:27:56
Speaker
of thing. Something negative. Yeah, so he would obviously say that away and be like, well, if they're reacting to someone on TV like that, what are they going to be like if I tell them that I'm the same? Whereas I was very lucky, my parents always created a very open forum.
00:28:10
Speaker
Um, I don't think they did it on, I don't think they did it on purpose. I think it was just completely by just, it's just who they are. Um, but yeah, I would say just kind of just make it known that it's okay. Like, and if, and if you do ever see or hear anyone being homophobic to anyone, just call it out, make it known that you don't accept that kind of thing. Cause that will speak volumes to especially a younger person that's never.
00:28:36
Speaker
really been around that the moment, if that's their first experience of a homophobic slur and you're their parent and you're calling that out saying that is wrong, then straight away that's going to stick with them for the rest of their lives. They're going to absorb that and change how they behave because of it. Yeah. And they're going to feel more comfortable knowing that, well, if my mum and dad or my dad and dad or my mum and mum or whoever, if they think that way, then
00:29:05
Speaker
I'm, I'm surely I can be, I can tell them who I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. So, so how did the rest of that conversation pan out with your grandma? Um, so yeah. So once she said that to me, I just kind of went, um, yeah. And she was like, right. Okay. When I was like, is that it? I was like, is that it? Where's the screaming? Where's the crying? Where's the drama? Like the typical, um, like expectations that you see on like films and all that kind of stuff. And it was just so,
00:29:35
Speaker
It was so surreal because it just felt like this huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. And it was just such a quick conversation to have. And the only thing I would say is like I personally regret not doing it in person. As much as doing it over the phone was very easy and that was right for me at the time. I would always say do whatever is right for you at the time, do it to whatever it is that makes it easier. But yeah, like looking back now, I wish I'd done it in person.
00:30:04
Speaker
What would that have given you, do you think? What if I'd done it in person? Yeah. Um, I think it's just, obviously I wasn't to know this because it could have, it could have gone either way. Cause I genuinely didn't know how my family was going to react to it. Um, I think looking back now, if I'd have known that it was going to go okay, it would have been an even bigger memory than it is. Like it's such an important memory to me that I cherish. Right.
00:30:28
Speaker
Cause it was such a huge day. Like it was genuinely the day that I've kind of just told my nearest and dearest the truth about who I am. It feels almost like a birthday. Yeah. That's exactly, that's exactly how I've, I've always said it. Like I've got, I've like, like, like a true, a true queen or king. I've got two birthdays. Oh, you did say that. Yeah. And then I've got my, my, my coming out birthday. Um, but yeah, I think for me, it was, it was just, it's just that to look back on now.
00:30:57
Speaker
because it was such a good day. I just wish I had a more vivid memory of it, but that's purely all it is for me. It's just that, it's that memory of it. Yeah. And then you, when you, when we spoke last time, you were telling me, I thought it was quite amusing and actually quite cathartic. You told your grandma then just said, um, do you want me to tell your granddad who's here? Yeah. So she was so right. She, lastly, yeah, she literally did just, she was like, uh, do you want me to tell your granddad? He sat next to me. I was like, um,
00:31:27
Speaker
I'm guessing he's probably already figured it out based on what you just asked me, but so I was just like, yeah, go for it. And then she told him and he was just like, all right. Okay. But then what was really funny, they then went, my granddad came on the phone and he actually reminded me, he was like, you do realize your uncle Bill's gay. And my uncle Billy's his twin brother. So my great uncle, so my mum's uncle. Um, and I was like, of course, like, and he's always been in the family. He was always kind of, he was always around. Like there was never any animosity towards him. There was no, like, nobody ever thought anything of it. Like it was just, he just was there.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah. And he was always his partner at the time. Like he was always, he was always there as well. And it was just something that I grew up, I'd grown up with that. And I'd never, I'd never questioned it. Like it was never like, Oh, uncle Bill's gay. Right. Okay. It was always this way. It's just, it was funny how I'd never, I hadn't even connected the two dots.
00:32:15
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I was going to say in your shoes, had you connected them, I would have thought you would have had so much more confidence about telling your family. It was just like, it would have been another normal thing to say. Yeah. It was just not, it just didn't even come into my mind, which I still, I don't, I don't know why, but I think again, it's that whole, when you, when you have an idea of how something's going to go or when you've got a negative thought, when you've got negative thoughts towards yourself as well, like that whole low self-esteem and all of that, you just assume the worst. Yeah.
00:32:45
Speaker
And he kind of sometimes it can be quite a toxic trait. Like I think some people like, I know I certainly used to be like that. I used to kind of want it to go the wrong way. Cause I felt like that's what I deserved. So when he went the right way, it was kind of like a bit of anti-climatic. It was kind of like, Oh, right. Okay. So that's how it's going to go. Okay. When you, when I built myself up this big, like I was fully prepared for my entire family. And this, this is genuine. Like I was fully prepared.
00:33:15
Speaker
for everyone to reject me and say, right, you need to move out the house. And for me to be on a friend's sofa somewhere, because I've gotten to that point where I was like, I don't want to lie anymore about who I am. I was willing to genuinely get rid of all, like just lose all of that, like the whole family network thing. So I thought it's better than living a lie. Yeah. I'm imagining it's like when you lance the boil, you've got yourself to the point of
00:33:41
Speaker
like, it's got to break. Otherwise, it's gonna kill me. And so maybe made it into a bigger way you had made it into a bigger thing than it needed to be clearly. But I am interested in why but that's, that's really profound. The thought that it's related to the fact that you don't we don't accept ourselves. And so we make everything a lot harder for ourselves than it needs to be.
00:34:07
Speaker
Yeah. And that's what you've just said there. That's kind of like something that I really would like to touch on is I think what's really important with anybody who's questioning anything about themselves that they don't necessarily like, but it's not going to go anywhere like the sexuality is you need to be comfortable with it yourself first. It's not about other people. Okay. So it's, it's, and this speaks to parents as well. Like you might be the most accepting parents in the entire world, but if your child is
00:34:37
Speaker
struggling with their sexuality to themselves. And you're thinking, I've done everything that I can. I've made it a safe space. I've made it obvious that we're okay with it. That's great, but they might not be there yet. So it's important to give them time to accept it themselves, because ultimately, it's their life. So it's really important not to force someone to come out because they might not be ready with it. They might not be okay with it yet. They might not have figured it out yet.
00:35:04
Speaker
That's really good advice. Thank you, Mike. Cause, um, I know in my shoes as a parent, I want everything fixed for my kids as fast as possible. So I would, but that's about me because I'm feeling bad for them. Um, so there is, there is a possibility that I would just rush in at the wrong time and probably make it worse. So that's really important point to make.
00:35:33
Speaker
Okay, so I'm grinning away here because I know the rest of the story and I want our listeners to hear it. So after you've hung up and you've told your grandma, tell us what happened next.
Parental Support and Anxiety
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, so that was just a start. So as I mentioned, my parents were in Singapore, so I thought, right, I've told my grandparents now. My grandma at the time, she said to me, she was like, you really need to let your mum know? And I was like, okay, I will do. And bearing in mind, they'd gone,
00:36:02
Speaker
they were on the other side of the world and they, they, I think they still had about two weeks left of the holiday. And I thought, I can't wait for two weeks to tell them. Um, so I actually sent them a text message, um, which I wouldn't advise because, uh, but again, it worked. It was, it was, it was perfect for me at the time. It worked. Um, but I sent them a text message and it was along the lines of, um, hi mom, how you doing? Um,
00:36:30
Speaker
Can I kind of a folk, can I actually asked her to give me, to give me a ring, but I was like, just let you know that I'm gay or words to that effect. It was very, very snappy. Um, so she, but what was funny about it was I completely forgotten about the time difference. So she was actually, she was either fast asleep or she was doing something. It was a completely different time of day. So obviously the second, this text message went through and this was before the days of like read receipts and stuff like that. So there was no way of seeing if she'd read it. Um,
00:37:00
Speaker
And it was, it was a few hours past and I was like, Oh my God, that's it. She's read it. She's like, she's, I think on a flight, she's either like in tears somewhere, like, like, like screaming, why God, why? Oh, she's on a flight on the way back to like, to like, yeah. Um, but then luckily obviously it was because she was asleep. I think she ranks, she actually rang me back and she was just like, why have you, why have you done this? And I was like, what do you mean?
00:37:26
Speaker
She was like, why have you told me this way? She was like, all I want to do now is just give you a hug. And I was like, again, it was this amazing reaction. She was like, the only thing I'm annoyed at with you, because we had this whole conversation. I was like, but I kept saying sorry for it as well. And she was like, stop saying sorry. You've got nothing to be sorry about. She was like, the only thing I'm annoyed at is the fact that you have told me this way, because now I'm worried, because I did this whole other dramatic thing, which I don't actually think we covered in the last story, which I don't think I told you. Oh, tell me.
00:37:57
Speaker
I actually posted on Facebook to everybody. Obviously at the time Facebook was like kind of like the place to be on social media. And I just made this huge post just saying, um, this is who I am. I finally come out as gay and posted that to everybody. I had everyone from high school, primary school, mom and dad's friends, all that kind of stuff on there. Um, and then her friend who she was away with, um, I had her on there and she'd seen it before I told my mom, obviously not told my mom.
00:38:27
Speaker
Um, and my mum was like, Oh, well, Linda, that was a French was like Linda's seen your post on Facebook. Like she was like, what if someone sees that and wants to like hurt you? Oh, I was like, I was like, I hadn't thought of, I hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking straight away. It was like straight. It was like all guns blazing. Like I've told grandma and granddad, right. Let's write a post and let's tell, let's tell mum and dad. Um, so yeah, I just, I hadn't thought of that at all from her perspective. And so she was in this, she was in this fear that she was like, well,
00:38:55
Speaker
What if there is someone out there? What if there is someone that wants to cause you harm because of it? Luckily there wasn't. I'm not there to protect you. Yeah. So from her perspective, I get it now, that wasn't the best way to do it. But that then was a very long two weeks waiting for them to come home. And I just remember being upstairs in my bedroom when they came home, when they got back from the airport. And I just remember hearing the front door going, I was like, oh God, here we go, here we go, here we go. I'm going to have to have this conversation now in person. I'm going to have to make eye contact.
00:39:24
Speaker
And I just remember her going, um, I'm always Mike at home, but then it's always Michael and it's serious. And she said, Michael, are you in? Oh God. And I was like, yeah. This was like, can you come downstairs? I was like, yeah, I'm coming down now. Honestly, that was like, Oh my God. That's a classic. Like if I ever say to my kids, can you come downstairs? They're like, Oh shit. What's going on? Yeah. And again, it was a, it was a dining room table talk as well. It wasn't like a,
00:39:54
Speaker
a breakfast bar or lounge talk. It was a dining room table talk. So I just sat down and then as I sat down, both of them, my mum and dad, they kind of lent over at the same time to give me a hug. And I was just like, shall I just stand up and we can just hug each other. And we did as a three. And it was just really nice. Like it was just very, again, it was very
00:40:18
Speaker
I think maybe anticlimactic is the wrong word, but I would, because again, because I built up this huge drama in my head, expecting them to reject me and be like, you need to get out of the house and all of this because I'd seen, I had seen that happen to people I knew. Um, so I kind of felt, I was very, very, I felt very lucky in that, in that moment that I had such great, great parents and a great family and great
Privilege and Supportive Environments
00:40:42
Speaker
friends. Like nobody at the Facebook post as well, nobody.
00:40:45
Speaker
said anything horrible on there. It was just pure love. That's all it was. Um, so from, from my perspective, like I feel very lucky. Um, and I think that's why doing something like this today is why I feel it because I've had such a privileged kind of experience. I know not everyone's gone, not everyone's gone through that and not, not everybody will like it. Not everybody will have the same kind of like easy kind of ride with it as I did.
00:41:12
Speaker
Um, so that's why I kind of want to share this story just to say that it's as much, it might be, it might be hard. Like it's still, it is so worth doing cause it's not, it's not going anywhere. And I know that might sound scary, but it's not like your sexuality is part of who you are and you need to embrace it. Hmm. Well, I think what you said earlier about, um, needing to be okay with it yourself before you tell everyone else.
00:41:40
Speaker
is really important again to highlight in this moment because for those people who need to tell their family, their friends, the world at large about their sexuality and they are going to get a negative response
00:42:02
Speaker
It's even more important to be able to put in place your own boundaries. Yeah. And you can only do that when you're very clear about who you are and what you want, because I'm guessing that the people that you're talking about who had a negative experience would have had a fight on their hands to remain true to themselves. Yeah. Because I think the problem is when you've got people that are against it. And unfortunately, I think that's always going to be the case. Like as much as.
00:42:31
Speaker
It seems to be getting better, but also seems to be getting worse in other parts of the world as well. Well, that's a whole other piece. Yeah. Um, but I think it's always, it's, it is important to just kind of know who you are and be okay with it. Yeah. And be prepared to, to walk away from those individuals that, that may not get it. It sounds like such a precipice moment for some people. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, just, just walk it, walking away from that.
00:43:00
Speaker
those people is, is important as much as it might be someone that you've always had in your life. That's a huge part of your life that you love dearly. Like it could be someone that you're really close to. It could be a friend or any, anyone, but it is important that you don't apologize for it because if they can't accept it, it's never going to work because unless, unless you're willing to kind of literally
00:43:24
Speaker
change, like try and change you are and heart and put all of that, imagine all the time, the time and energy that you would need to put into being another person. Yeah. But imagine if you, if you funneled that into something else, like a career or raising a family or whatever, whatever it is you want to do, like it's such a waste of energy because it's not going to change. That is so right. So those people are trying to change it. They need to be
00:43:51
Speaker
they need to be taken out of your life because they're just going to drain you. Yeah. That's really profound and yet completely true. You've painted a really clear picture, Mike, that makes so much sense. Would you have any advice for people who know they're going to be in that situation in terms of getting themselves ready for that conversation and that process?
Emphasizing Safety in Coming Out
00:44:17
Speaker
I think the most important thing is safety.
00:44:21
Speaker
If you feel like that's the case, even if it's, even if it's just like a 1% chance that you think it might happen, put yourself in a safe position. So like, for example, with myself, as much as it's bizarre for me to think back now, I didn't know how the family would react. So I did it. I did it all of the phone, phone and text message. I was on my own. Um, my, I waited for my parents to be on the other side of the world, which again, I wouldn't advise. That was very, very dramatic way of doing it.
00:44:49
Speaker
But it's made a good story, I suppose. But I would say, yeah, the most important thing is safety. So if you think that there is going to be any kind of, even if it's just an argument or not necessarily violence, but even if it's anything like that, don't put yourself in that situation. Don't allow it to happen. Or at least if you do want to do it in person, make sure there's someone there with you that you can trust, that you know that will have you back.
00:45:13
Speaker
Um, or even maybe even if somewhere in a public space, like where it's where you have obviously privacy, it'll be like somewhere, like a pub or where you're like tucked away somewhere. Don't do it on your own with people that you might, that you don't know how they're going to react because it's not. You just, it's just not worth that risk. So yeah, safety is the number one thing in my head, but once that, once you've got that like covered, I think the rest of it,
00:45:41
Speaker
It needs to be a personal kind of thing. Every coming out story is always different and it's always specific to each individual. So it's hard to kind of say what to do and what not to do. But yeah, I think the safety part is the most important part. And I just want to underline that emotional safety is just as important as physical safety. So yeah, putting yourself in a place where you know that you will be able to stand firm and
00:46:12
Speaker
and keep going forward on your own terms is important that you're not going to be coerced by anyone else. As you're talking, I'm just remembering that there is a podcast and I can't remember what it's called, but it is all coming out stories. If I can find it, I'll put it in the show notes as a link so people can go and find more. Yeah. Because I think that'll show that there's so much varied
00:46:41
Speaker
ways of doing it, like there's no right or wrong way of doing it. As much as I do feel like sometimes the way I did do it was wrong, but again, that's just my personal opinion on it.
00:46:54
Speaker
and having years to reflect on it now, but it worked at the time. Well, I was going to say it was right for you. It was the way you needed to do it. And actually it has to be, like we just said, it has to be on your terms so that other people in your life need to get on board with it or not. And then you have to deal with that.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Their response in the appropriate way for you. And I was just thinking about the lancing the boil analogy. It's no wonder you put it all on Facebook, because I imagine you'd lanced the boil, you told people, and the next thing you needed to do was get the whole thing out so that you could start your life. I was literally, that's all I wanted, because I was like, I think, yeah, actually, that's a good point. So the main reason I did that was because the one thing I didn't want was like,
00:47:41
Speaker
people, like Chinese whispers, like, oh, did you, is it, have I heard right? Is that right? Have you come out? Like the thought of that, at that point in my life, like where, where my parents live, like there was like, um, there was like a pub that me and my friends used to go to every weekend. Like that was kind of like, we used to socialize there all the time. Um, and it was very, cause it was such a small place. Like I knew that if I put it on Facebook, the majority of people I would see out and about would see it on there and they didn't have to ask me the question cause I've kind of, it's from the horse's mouth.
00:48:11
Speaker
And I thought to myself, like, I just don't want that kind of like, Oh, is that right? I've heard right. Cause I was just like, I thought it's, it's kind of like coming out again and again and again. Yeah. And I was just like, let's just blanket cover it. Yeah. Let's just do it. It's like a send all email. Um, just cover all bases. This is what's happened. This is the truth. You don't need to ask me about it. If you want to ask me about it, you can, but you don't need to. And it's kind of, it's out there for the world to see. Yeah.
00:48:40
Speaker
Yeah. Brilliant. It was just kind of like ripping off the plaster. And your friends were, you said, well, your friends were really good about it. Yeah.
Role of Straight Allies
00:48:47
Speaker
Like I think what was, what was funny about the friends, the friends side of thing was the, the group that I was friends with, I kind of naturally gravitated towards were all people that were going through similar thing. Okay. So there was, um, there was some girls that were discovering that they were lesbian. There was some other people that were discovering that they actually were bisexual. They weren't,
00:49:07
Speaker
They weren't just saying that to test the water like I was. There was people that were, other people that were saying that they were gay, but then it's also really important to mention as well that within that group, there were straight people and they were just, just as amazing in the whole thing and accepting like it was never, it was never like a thing like, oh, I'm a straight person and I'm friends with the gay people who just, we're all friends and that's it. Exactly. And that's, that's what's really important about, I think straight people as well is that,
00:49:38
Speaker
they are some of the best allies that you can have. And again, if they, I think I've put this in my, in my, in my, um, my blog story for work as well, where I was saying about allies that if, if, again, if, if, if you see as a straight person, if you see any homophobia happening, call it out, because that's, that's the best way that you can be an ally. Like you don't have to know somebody to be an ally. It can be a random person on the street that if you see is being verbally abused, obviously if it's physical, it's slightly different because it's a lot more dangerous.
00:50:07
Speaker
But if someone's been verbally abused, then call it out because that's the best way you can be an ally. Yeah, that's a really good point and especially for the parents that are listening to really take note of that and be proactive about it. Yeah, absolutely.
00:50:24
Speaker
Mike, thank you so much for sharing that story with my listeners and talking to me again about it. I love the story every time we talk. But on a serious note, it's just really useful for kids to get
00:50:44
Speaker
input and insight into their own feelings and how they might manage their own set of circumstances. So it's really generous of you to share. Is there anything else that you haven't said that you think you'd like people to know before we round off? I think as much as it's probably a cliche thing to say, but it's the truth, is that once you've come out and you've discovered who you are,
Hope and Acceptance of Identity
00:51:10
Speaker
it does get better. Like it's hard at first because you still, you're navigating this whole new world of like, well, I'm gay. What does this mean? What does it, what does it mean? Like how, how do, how do I be gay? And it's like, it's like, there's no, there's no real book. Like there's no, I know there's, there's, there's like, there's people that you can look up to and all of that, but just because something works for one person doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Yeah. And I think the main thing I can, I can say on that is that you need to just kind of just be yourself. Yeah.
00:51:37
Speaker
and just allow yourself to kind of make mistakes, allow yourself to just navigate through the crazy world that we live in. Because eventually you'll find your right tribe, you will find the people that you need to be around. And if you're lucky enough, like myself, you'll find the right workplace where everyone's welcome in and you don't feel the need to constantly explain yourself about being gay. I've had it before where
00:52:07
Speaker
people have, it's always, again, like it's like, you kind of have to come out again. Cause it's, you're explaining like, Oh, what do you say? Like my partner on my other half people are like, Oh, Oh, Oh, it's a guy, right? It's kind of, you know, like when people question it and again, like there's no malice in that most of the time. Um, but yeah, it's just, I think it does get better. And the more, once you've accepted it yourself, everything else, just the chips just kind of land in the right place. Um, and it's just as long as you do stay,
00:52:37
Speaker
true to yourself and you make sure you don't compromise on any of it. It will work out. Perfect note to end on. Thank you, Mike. No worries. You're very welcome.
00:52:55
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode.
00:53:24
Speaker
If you have a story or suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey. See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.