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Dr. Gail Dines & the Queens Rage Against The Porn Machine
66 Plays4 years ago
Esteemed and highly requested guest Dr. Gail Dines visits the pod to commiserate with our hosts about the rise and impact of porn culture.
Dines is founder & president of the nonprofit organization Culture Reframed. Dedicated to building resilience and resistance in youth to hypersexualized media and porn, Culture Reframed works on “solving the public health crisis of the digital age.” An internationally known speaker and consultant to governmental bodies here and abroad, Dines has been described as one of the leading anti-porn scholars/activists in the world.
Culture Reframed:
https://www.culturereframed.org/
Dr. Gail Daines:
https://www.gaildines.com/dr_gail_dines/
Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked our Sexuality
https://www.amazon.com/Pornland-How-Porn-Hijacked-Sexuality/dp/0807001546
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Transcript
Introduction and Need for Female-Focused Media
00:00:00
Speaker
Before we get started, I just want to make a brief announcement about the state of the pod.
00:00:04
Speaker
We've been getting tons of amazing feedback from women, and it's become very clear to us that a lot of women are thirsty for this type of content.
00:00:12
Speaker
This is a niche in women's media that is desperately needed and has been neglected for a very long time.
Financial Struggles and Expansion Plans
00:00:18
Speaker
and we really want to be able to make more content if there's just one problem and that's money we would love to be able to quit our day jobs and work full time on content creation and the only thing holding us back is the fact that we got bills today if i'm being totally honest long term though we would like to expand into other forms of media such as video tick tock newsletters ebooks even like real physical books and so on
00:00:43
Speaker
And that's why we've set a new Patreon goal.
00:00:46
Speaker
As soon as we hit $10,000 monthly revenue, that will be enough for us to afford to quit our jobs and start working on growing FDS full time.
Patreon and Special Discounts
00:00:55
Speaker
Currently, our schedules only really allow us to post about 60 to 90 minutes of bonus content per month.
00:01:02
Speaker
And as a reward to our patrons for helping achieve this target, we will commit to posting more bonus content.
00:01:08
Speaker
So if you like FDS and you want us to grow and you want us to make more content, you can support us on Patreon at www.patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
00:01:21
Speaker
And for the next 48 hours, we'll be offering a limited time offer called Lurker Mode, where you can access the bonus content at a reduced price of $5.99 per month.
00:01:31
Speaker
Thank you so much to everyone who listened and shared to help us to get to where we are now.
00:01:36
Speaker
And I'm sure this is a sign of even greater things to come.
00:01:39
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:45
Speaker
What's up, Queens?
Guest Introduction: Dr. Gail Dines
00:01:46
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:01:51
Speaker
I'm your host, Ro.
00:01:52
Speaker
And I'm Savannah.
00:01:53
Speaker
And this is Lilith.
00:01:54
Speaker
And today we have a much requested, much esteemed guest, Dr. Gail Dines.
00:02:00
Speaker
For most of our subbies and people who follow our podcast, they'll already know her and she needs no introduction, but for people who may be new,
00:02:07
Speaker
Dr. Gail Dines is a professor emerita at Wheelock College in Boston, Massachusetts.
00:02:13
Speaker
Also the founder of Culture Reframed and also the author of Pornland, How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality.
00:02:23
Speaker
Welcome, Gail.
00:02:24
Speaker
Pleasure.
00:02:24
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:02:26
Speaker
So much.
00:02:26
Speaker
I'm so happy to be here.
00:02:28
Speaker
I always like to talk about pornography.
00:02:30
Speaker
Well, it's an honor to have you on the podcast, Gail.
00:02:33
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:02:34
Speaker
Thank you.
00:02:35
Speaker
Thank you.
00:02:36
Speaker
So most of our audience is already porn critical, but for our newer audience, can you tell us a little bit about your work?
The Anti-Pornography Stance: True Sex Positivity?
00:02:43
Speaker
Yes, certainly.
00:02:43
Speaker
So let me tell you why I do this work to start with.
00:02:46
Speaker
You know, often those of us who are against pornography get called, you know, anti-sex, sex negative.
00:02:52
Speaker
And I do this because I'm pro-sex and sex positive.
00:02:56
Speaker
And I can't stand to see what pornography has done to sex.
00:03:00
Speaker
So I would begin by saying that if you want to be pro-sex, you have to be anti-porn.
00:03:05
Speaker
You can't be both pro-sex and pro-porn.
00:03:07
Speaker
The two don't go together.
00:03:08
Speaker
So, you know, I've been doing this for well over 30 years, so there's many aspects of my work.
00:03:13
Speaker
But one of the things that I'm specifically interested in is the way that, you know, pornography as a discourse, as a set of images, as an industry is reshaping the notion of sexuality, sexual templates, heterosexual
Internet and Mainstreaming of Hardcore Porn
00:03:29
Speaker
behaviors.
00:03:29
Speaker
And we'll talk mainly about heterosexual porn, but I can talk about gay and lesbian porn as well.
00:03:34
Speaker
But I think critically, when you think about the industry, it's mainly made up of heterosexual porn, although we don't really know if the guys were watching it, how they identify, but it's geared to heterosexual men.
00:03:47
Speaker
And it's really, over the last 20 years, since the internet became affordable, anonymous, and accessible, they made porn affordable, anonymous, and accessible, it's really driven demand to pornography.
00:03:59
Speaker
And
00:03:59
Speaker
Overnight in 2000, we went from sort of soft to middle core to absolute hardcore.
00:04:06
Speaker
It was astounding to watch this change.
00:04:09
Speaker
It was like no middle ground.
00:04:11
Speaker
It was immediately what they call in the industry gonzo, which is really a shorthand for the hardcore porn.
00:04:19
Speaker
It's the type of porn you see now for free on Pornhub.
00:04:23
Speaker
is the type of porn that say just before the internet you would have to go to a porn shop, you'd have to be over 18 and you'd have to know somebody who carried such hardcore porn.
Effects of Porn on Relationships
00:04:33
Speaker
This has now become mainstream.
00:04:35
Speaker
It's a click away, the average age of first viewing porn studies say around 11 but increasingly we see in younger and younger boys.
00:04:43
Speaker
And what's interesting specifically, I think for a lot of your listeners is it used to be, you know, boys would grow up and get a peek at their father or brother's playboy, you know, maybe masturbate to a bit here and there.
00:04:54
Speaker
But basically you were kind of limited with how much access you had to porn.
00:04:59
Speaker
Today, there is no limit.
00:05:00
Speaker
And they're immediately catapulted into hardcore, you know, gone are the days of the centerfold of the, you know, young white woman bending over with a coy smile in a cornfield.
00:05:10
Speaker
It's completely different.
00:05:12
Speaker
And what's interesting and what studies are showing is that men, as they kind of develop into adulthood, are not leaving porn behind.
00:05:20
Speaker
They're taking it with them into their relationships.
00:05:23
Speaker
And it's having a profound effect on relationships.
00:05:26
Speaker
We know that both from anecdotal evidence, but especially peer-reviewed articles as well from multiple disciplines.
00:05:32
Speaker
So everything I'm going to be saying today that's around this stuff is going to be mainly based in the research because we have so much research on the effects.
00:05:40
Speaker
Amazing.
00:05:41
Speaker
Everything that you
Media's Role in Objectification vs. Empowerment
00:05:42
Speaker
said there is so validating.
00:05:43
Speaker
And so many women have been saying how, you know, porn has negatively affected their relationships.
00:05:48
Speaker
And lots of guys are telling us that we're crazy or controlling or that, you know, porn is normal and healthy.
00:05:54
Speaker
And that if you have a problem with porn, you're anti-sex and like sex negative and all of that stuff.
00:06:00
Speaker
It's coming from men as well as the liberal feminist arm of a lot of mainstream media, especially in the States.
00:06:08
Speaker
We've done part of our media analysis on the way that a lot of times women's magazines and women's media cloaks
00:06:17
Speaker
over-sexualization objectification as feminist empowerment and how that actually a lot of times leads to dissatisfaction in relationships because it's not coming from a true place of expressive sexuality it's coming from a place of performative sexuality for men and them trying to sell us you know products if i have to hear that fucking word empowerment again i think i'm going to have to throw a feminist fit honestly
00:06:40
Speaker
I agree.
00:06:41
Speaker
I am so sick of this.
00:06:43
Speaker
We roast that all the time, yeah.
Inside the Porn Industry: Abusive Experiences
00:06:45
Speaker
First of all, let me say this, the porn industry has a very well-oiled PR machine.
00:06:51
Speaker
When some guy is trying to groom you into porn, he's getting this from the porn industry, right?
00:06:56
Speaker
He's not thinking this up himself, by the way.
00:06:58
Speaker
He's being fed how to groom women and girls into porn.
00:07:02
Speaker
You know, and will you explain to me what is empowering about...
00:07:07
Speaker
Going onto a porn set, being anally, vaginally, orally, pounded away, being called a slut, a whore, a cum dunster and a cunt, being ejaculated in the face, especially in the eyes, maybe getting, if you're lucky, a small amount of money.
00:07:21
Speaker
That image then going up onto Pornhub, the women never seeing a penny of it, and men all over the world jerking off to what was probably one of the worst experiences of your life.
00:07:30
Speaker
Can somebody please explain to me how that's empowerment?
00:07:33
Speaker
And what's interesting, we never talk about male empowerment, we talk about male power.
00:07:38
Speaker
And when men have power, that means they have economic power, legal power, social power.
00:07:45
Speaker
For women, our power lies in, you know, full bikini waxes, fucking any man that wants us to fuck him, giving blowjobs.
00:07:52
Speaker
Why do they get the real material power and ours becomes a pseudo empowerment through becoming disposable sex objects for men?
00:07:59
Speaker
If we want power, we want the same type of power that men have, which is economic, social and legal power so that women no longer have to live as a subordinate sex class.
00:08:09
Speaker
Straight facts, a mic drop.
00:08:11
Speaker
Preach.
Advice for Women in Relationships Involving Porn
00:08:13
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:08:13
Speaker
You mentioned the porn, the porn lobby.
00:08:16
Speaker
And I remember watching this clip with you and Rashida Jones talking about, I think it was hot girls wanted.
00:08:21
Speaker
And you're arguing with this one guy, this old creepy looking guy who was saying Mark Kearns, Mark Kearns.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:29
Speaker
And he was saying like, most guys don't watch violent porn, which is a fucking lie.
00:08:35
Speaker
And so can you tell me more about what it's like to, you know, what are some of the techniques that they use to sort of gaslight women?
00:08:40
Speaker
What are, what are some things to look out for?
00:08:43
Speaker
Well, the thing to look out for is that, well, all the other girls are doing it, what's wrong with you?
00:08:48
Speaker
Girls like this, are you a prude?
00:08:51
Speaker
You know, trying to sort of isolate you where somehow you're abnormal, you're different, you're prudish if you don't want to be fucked in the ass by three guys.
00:09:00
Speaker
So I think it's really important for women to get a sense of themselves rather than let these men tell them what to do.
00:09:07
Speaker
You know, we have set the bar so low for what a decent man looks like.
00:09:11
Speaker
You know, if he doesn't beat the shit out of you, he's a good guy.
00:09:13
Speaker
If he doesn't do this, you know, we need to actually...
00:09:16
Speaker
Really raise the bar because we're not doing men any favors either by really lowering this bar to such a degree.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I would say if any guy tries to pressure you into porn or doing porn sex, then you have to walk away.
00:09:28
Speaker
You absolutely have to walk away.
00:09:29
Speaker
I used to tell this to my students all the time.
00:09:32
Speaker
You have to close the door and walk away.
00:09:34
Speaker
You can explain the problem, and if he doesn't listen, it's goodbye.
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, I mean, how many people of color would spend their time hanging out with white racists?
00:09:44
Speaker
True.
00:09:44
Speaker
True.
00:09:46
Speaker
You'd walk away.
00:09:47
Speaker
So why do women spend their time trying to explain to misogynists why it doesn't feel good to be a fuck object?
00:09:53
Speaker
You know, we spend too much of our emotional energy trying to change men who won't be changed.
00:09:59
Speaker
And that doesn't mean to say there's not men out there who actually will have an aha moment and will change their behavior.
00:10:04
Speaker
But for the others, really, this is such emotional energy on women.
00:10:08
Speaker
It's like we wash up after men, we cook after men, we clean up the messes, and now we have to do the emotional energy of trying to turn them into decent human beings.
00:10:15
Speaker
I say enough already.
00:10:16
Speaker
I completely
Criticism of Hard Stance Against Men Watching Porn
00:10:17
Speaker
agree.
00:10:17
Speaker
That's FDS in a nutshell.
00:10:19
Speaker
That's FDS.
00:10:21
Speaker
Because we get criticized all the time for our hardline stance on this.
00:10:24
Speaker
We say if a guy watches porn, he's undateable.
00:10:27
Speaker
Like, break up with him, block and delete.
00:10:29
Speaker
Like, we say, like, you can maybe explain if you want, but you don't have to.
00:10:32
Speaker
It's not your job.
00:10:33
Speaker
And in fact, it's just, like, a waste of energy to try, because most of them will just, like, argue with you and, like, gaslight you.
00:10:39
Speaker
They'll lie.
00:10:39
Speaker
They'll lie.
00:10:41
Speaker
They'll, you know, it's a waste of time, right?
00:10:43
Speaker
And so we say all the time, like, oh, just block and delete.
00:10:45
Speaker
Like, just break up with them.
00:10:47
Speaker
And so many people give us shit for that.
00:10:48
Speaker
But...
00:10:50
Speaker
We have a professor here telling us that this is facts.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yes.
00:10:55
Speaker
We have a hashtag on our subreddit called Porn Sick Limp Dick, which got a lot of controversy when we posted it because in addition to all the things that you just said, it's just making a lot of these guys not be able to perform sexually in real life situations because they're so overstimulated.
Feminist Porn: An Oxymoron?
00:11:14
Speaker
that they can't actually engage with you as a person when you're trying to have sex with them as a real live breathing human woman.
00:11:21
Speaker
And that is affecting our relationships directly.
00:11:23
Speaker
Totally.
00:11:24
Speaker
And I used to hear this from my students all the time.
00:11:26
Speaker
They felt like a masturbation facilitator, you know?
00:11:32
Speaker
And what's really interesting when one of the best interviews I ever heard with a guy who used porn and was reflecting on it, he said, porn taught me how to masturbate into a woman.
00:11:42
Speaker
Now, who wants to have sex with someone who's using you as a masturbation facilitator?
00:11:46
Speaker
You know, if men want to know what women want sexually, they're going to be very disappointed if they go to poor.
00:11:52
Speaker
Because, you know, this might be a surprise to some men, but when you stick your penis down her throat, she doesn't have an orgasm, right?
00:11:58
Speaker
The clitoris is not in the throat.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:12:02
Speaker
all these messages that come at these guys about what we want and and what happens is they they really do become terrible sex partners because they're clueless they're focused on getting off as quickly as they can and they and because they think the women in porn like it by the way i've interviewed so many women in porn who've been in porn and they hate it they hate every single minute all this interviews you see with women who are in porn i love my body i do it
00:12:29
Speaker
That's when they're in porn.
00:12:31
Speaker
Speak to women once they've left the porn industry.
00:12:33
Speaker
That's when things change dramatically.
00:12:35
Speaker
And they talk about it felt like rape.
00:12:38
Speaker
It felt like abuse, exploitation.
00:12:40
Speaker
They're not having a good time.
00:12:42
Speaker
And you know what's interesting?
00:12:43
Speaker
The men aren't either.
00:12:44
Speaker
Porn performers don't like doing what they're doing.
00:12:46
Speaker
But what's interesting is what you are meant to do is emulate porn.
Porn as Fast Food: Commodification of Desires
00:12:51
Speaker
porn performers who are actually pretending to have a good time.
00:12:55
Speaker
So what kind of sex is everyone having?
00:12:57
Speaker
Sex should be fun, creative.
00:13:00
Speaker
You should be the author of your own sexuality.
00:13:02
Speaker
You shouldn't let a bunch of creepy men in LA like Mark Kearns, who I was on with Rashida Jones.
00:13:08
Speaker
Why would you really want that gross guy to be the determinant of your sexual template?
00:13:15
Speaker
I mean, this is what is so ridiculous.
00:13:17
Speaker
And people often say to me, you know, it's so interesting.
00:13:20
Speaker
People say, if I don't use porn, this is men, what am I going to masturbate to?
00:13:23
Speaker
You know, I say, what about your imagination?
00:13:26
Speaker
Right.
00:13:27
Speaker
As long as it's not porn fueled imagination.
00:13:29
Speaker
As long as it's not pure food.
00:13:30
Speaker
But the other thing I have to say, carrying on the food analogy, is porn is to sex, but McDonald's is to food.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's the industrialization, commodification, and monetization of a real human desire that is then stolen from you, sold back to you, and looks nothing like the original desire.
00:13:49
Speaker
So, you know, and then so I would say if you want to make hamburgers, fine, go home, experiment with different recipes, make hamburgers.
00:13:56
Speaker
But that's very different from supporting a multi-billion dollar fast food industry that is destroying the environment as well as, of course, making everyone fat and want salty food.
00:14:06
Speaker
So what I would say is that let us become the authors of a fun, creative sexuality and let's relegate the porn industries to where they should be, which is the trash heap of the society.
Envisioning a Porn-Free World: Intimacy and Equality
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, that was another question that we have, because a lot of people have a hard time imagining what a post porn world would look like, or even if it's possible.
00:14:26
Speaker
Like, so, you know, could you maybe explain why, you know, why is it possible?
00:14:30
Speaker
And how would we go about that?
00:14:32
Speaker
Well, remember, we've had a pre-porn world, right?
00:14:35
Speaker
That people managed to have set, and it wasn't great sets for most women, by the way.
00:14:38
Speaker
We know from the 1950s, you know, it was like kind of laid back and just let it happen.
00:14:42
Speaker
And in England, we used to say laid back and think of England, you know, why he did this to you.
00:14:48
Speaker
now given that women are demanding more and more that they are sexual beings who have a right to sexual pleasure I think a post-porn world would be one in which women were seeing themselves have a right to pleasure were not there in the service of men sexually and this would really make men become more creative because if women wouldn't tolerate what men do which remember post-porn world would require also probably a post-patriarchal world
00:15:15
Speaker
Right, which is what we all dream of and hope for all the time.
00:15:19
Speaker
Is that really thinking about what does sex look like?
00:15:22
Speaker
It's built on not just relationships, but intimacy, consent, connection, equality, all of those things.
00:15:30
Speaker
I'm not saying you have to, you know, have sex with the same person all your life, you know, or you shouldn't experiment.
00:15:34
Speaker
Of course you should.
00:15:35
Speaker
But at least in a way, and, you know, when I was growing up, it was a pre-porn world, right?
00:15:40
Speaker
I was thinking about, you know, because I often do this work, what it was like.
00:15:43
Speaker
And first of all, I grew up in a quite small Jewish community and they were not kind of, they didn't feel perpetrated, boys.
00:15:52
Speaker
You felt safe for them.
00:15:53
Speaker
So you really got a chance to sexually experiment in a way that felt safe and connected and you could then move on to some other guys, but you never felt like you had to perform for the guys.
00:16:05
Speaker
So I hear my students talk all the time.
00:16:08
Speaker
And, you know, most of them don't have orgasms.
Research on Porn's Negative Impact on Men
00:16:11
Speaker
They don't enjoy sex.
00:16:12
Speaker
All they can think about is, is he enjoying it?
00:16:15
Speaker
And does my stomach look too big in this position?
00:16:16
Speaker
Or does my butt look too big?
00:16:18
Speaker
They kind of become the external observers to their body.
00:16:22
Speaker
as they're having sex.
00:16:23
Speaker
They're sort of disembodied during sex because they're so concerned they look the right, they look properly, they look like they should, and that they're performing on him the kind of sex exactly that he wants that he's seen in porn.
00:16:35
Speaker
So one of the things that I found when I was just researching your work and looking at the response to it is a lot of the pro-porn feminists seem to think the answer to this is not
00:16:46
Speaker
to, not what you suggested, but to push for more and more quote unquote feminist porn.
00:16:52
Speaker
And they also often denigrate your work as just like, oh, she's just an anti-porn feminist and there's not enough evidence to support what she's saying.
00:17:00
Speaker
Oh, she's just a swerve.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's work.
00:17:04
Speaker
And furthermore, I mean, the other difficulties with doing this work is that there's not always a good control group because there are so many men that watch porn.
00:17:13
Speaker
So a lot of times when they've tried to do hard studies on porn, they literally cannot find men who have not watched it to use as a control group.
00:17:21
Speaker
So what's your response to that?
00:17:22
Speaker
What kind of research have you seen?
00:17:24
Speaker
Well, first of all, let's get...
00:17:26
Speaker
Just get rid of the feminist porn argument.
00:17:28
Speaker
You can either be a feminist or a pornographer.
00:17:30
Speaker
You can't be both.
00:17:31
Speaker
Okay?
00:17:32
Speaker
Pornography in its production and consumption is violence against women.
00:17:36
Speaker
And I don't care if you brand yourself a feminist.
00:17:39
Speaker
It doesn't work like that.
00:17:40
Speaker
We have no right to monetize and commodify women's bodies.
00:17:44
Speaker
That's whether you're a pornographer living in L.A.
00:17:47
Speaker
or whether you're Erica Luss living in Berlin.
00:17:49
Speaker
It's the same thing.
00:17:51
Speaker
So I do not buy this ethical or feminist porn.
00:17:53
Speaker
You cannot take an utterly bankrupt,
00:17:56
Speaker
system and think you can make it better.
00:17:59
Speaker
You have no right to be the voyeur of somebody at their most vulnerable, who you do not know.
00:18:06
Speaker
You don't know her wishes, her wants, her desires, her aspirations, her history, nothing.
00:18:11
Speaker
Why did you have
00:18:13
Speaker
The right of looking at her while you are clothed or semi-clothed and she is at her most vulnerable.
00:18:18
Speaker
So I do not believe there can be such a thing as feminist porn.
Third-Wave Feminism: Empowerment vs. Liberation
00:18:22
Speaker
If you want to make your own images and keep them within your own community or your own relationship, that's fine.
00:18:29
Speaker
That's none of my business.
00:18:30
Speaker
But once you start commodifying them and wanting to make a profit, then you become tapped into the mainstream porn industry, whether you like it or not.
00:18:39
Speaker
and it is about the monetization of women's bodies.
00:18:41
Speaker
So, no, I do not agree with the terms feminist or ethical porn.
00:18:44
Speaker
I think it's an oxymoron.
00:18:46
Speaker
The thing around the third wave feminists, I think what's happened with this pro-porn is that they are actually neoliberals.
00:18:52
Speaker
They were not brought up at a time when radical ideas were in the air.
00:18:56
Speaker
They were often born during the Reagan-Thatcher era or the post-Reagan-Thatcher era where rampant individualism,
00:19:06
Speaker
was the key.
00:19:07
Speaker
So really, I joined a feminism that says, you know what, even if I'm okay, and I have to say I'm very okay, I've got race privileges, class privileges, I've got a lot of privileges, I'm fine.
00:19:19
Speaker
But if my sister over there is not okay, then I will walk mountains to make her okay.
00:19:24
Speaker
Because you know what, we talked about women's liberation.
00:19:28
Speaker
Our job is to liberate all women, not just a lucky few who happen to have some privilege.
00:19:33
Speaker
The problem with third wave,
00:19:35
Speaker
neoliberal feminism, which is more the pro-porn feminism, is if I'm okay and I like it, then fuck you, sister, over there.
00:19:42
Speaker
It's your fault.
00:19:43
Speaker
It's not a notion of collective liberation.
00:19:45
Speaker
It's a notion of individual empowerment.
00:19:48
Speaker
And let's be honest, individual empowerment happens to the most privileged of women.
00:19:52
Speaker
It happens to the whitest, most wealthy women with the most choices.
00:19:56
Speaker
So this is why as a radical feminist, I do not buy into third wave.
00:20:01
Speaker
I call it faux feminism because it's not about sisterhood.
00:20:04
Speaker
It's not about liberation.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's not about the collective well-being of women.
00:20:07
Speaker
It's really about individual women and what they're doing.
00:20:10
Speaker
So I think we need to step back a little bit because this is really part of a wider argument as where is feminism going.
00:20:16
Speaker
And I don't like it where it's going, I have to be honest.
00:20:18
Speaker
And to call us, you know, swerves like sex works as if we are against women who work in the sex industry.
00:20:25
Speaker
We do this work because we don't want our sister to be sexually exploited in the sex industry.
00:20:30
Speaker
We're not against them.
00:20:31
Speaker
We see them as our sisters.
00:20:33
Speaker
And we want to make a world where women don't have to be sexually exploited.
00:20:38
Speaker
as a way to feed their children or to put money or put food on the table.
00:20:42
Speaker
So that's a complete ridiculous upside down view of reality.
00:20:46
Speaker
So I think ultimately what we have to think about is how do we get young women to really think about pornography, prostitution, all of these things in a way that is about the collective liberation and well-being of all women.
00:21:01
Speaker
and not about just you as an individual.
00:21:04
Speaker
That's the hardest, and especially the United States, which is founded on this notion of individualism.
00:21:09
Speaker
And the research, let me talk to the research.
00:21:11
Speaker
There is over 30 to 40 years of research, empirical research from multiple disciplines that show the same thing.
00:21:20
Speaker
When you're in social science, as in any science,
00:21:23
Speaker
You go with the weight of the evidence.
00:21:25
Speaker
Now, I can find you junk science, just as I can find you a piece of junk science that says climate change isn't happening.
00:21:31
Speaker
You always got some junk science.
00:21:32
Speaker
That's why you need to go with the weight of the evidence.
00:21:35
Speaker
And without question, when people argue there is no research, we have longitudinal research now, which shows causation, where they're following boys and they're holding all variables constant except for their use of pornography.
00:21:48
Speaker
And what they're finding as they move into adulthood is that the more boys view porn, the more likely they are to sexually abuse, the more likely they are to rape, sexually harass, coerce girls into sexting, become themselves perpetrators, all these things.
00:22:03
Speaker
And these are actually causation, not correlation.
00:22:06
Speaker
So anyone who argues that there's no research is simply willfully ignoring it or just doesn't know about it.
00:22:11
Speaker
Yeah, we actually get people who say the opposite.
00:22:14
Speaker
They'll say, like, well, the research says that porn is amazing and healthy.
00:22:17
Speaker
And we even had one feminist we were arguing with, quote-unquote feminist, who was saying that the sex offender registry is anti-feminist and that if you're a good feminist, you should be, like, a pro-abolishing the concept of the sex offender registry.
00:22:32
Speaker
And we'll point to junk science to, quote-unquote, prove that.
00:22:36
Speaker
So, like... They've lost
Critiques and Reforms of the Sex Offender Registry
00:22:38
Speaker
the plot, basically.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:39
Speaker
they lost the plot like help us out like how do we respond to these crazy people well let's just talk about the sex event there are some people on there who shouldn't be i have to say right sometimes it's this to cast a wide net for example girls who sexed young girls who sexed to um who were under 18 um sexed to other
00:23:01
Speaker
people can be called sex offenders because they're sending child pornography.
00:23:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:05
Speaker
So people like that shouldn't be on the sex.
00:23:07
Speaker
But that's the thing.
00:23:08
Speaker
Like we, our argument is like, if there's problems with the sex offender registry, we should change it or reform it.
00:23:14
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:15
Speaker
Not abolish it.
00:23:18
Speaker
That's a wacko argument.
00:23:19
Speaker
You know, why bother?
00:23:20
Speaker
I would say to that person, you know what, you send me the evidence to read this.
00:23:24
Speaker
Instead of me fighting with you, first send me, and I often do this when people argue with me.
00:23:28
Speaker
I say, you know what, if you disagree with me, send me the links to the studies.
00:23:33
Speaker
Let me read them and I'll get back to you.
00:23:34
Speaker
Of course, I never get any emails and links and anything like that.
00:23:37
Speaker
But that's the way.
00:23:38
Speaker
Don't spend your time defending it.
00:23:40
Speaker
Ask for the studies so you can read them and assess them yourself.
00:23:44
Speaker
And believe me, you won't have to read any studies because no one will send you any.
00:23:47
Speaker
Milsam just sent us like a YouTube link to some idiot talking.
00:23:51
Speaker
Oh, well, that's really scientific.
00:23:53
Speaker
That's really robust science for your YouTube, you know.
00:23:56
Speaker
Professor Dines, I had a question because in my dating travels, I've come across men who are somewhat in denial about the extent of their porn addiction.
00:24:06
Speaker
They'll say, oh, I only watch it a little bit or I'll watch it when, you know, my wife's out of town or when she's on her period or stuff like that.
00:24:14
Speaker
Do you think there is such a thing as...
00:24:17
Speaker
you know, porn in moderation?
00:24:20
Speaker
Yes.
00:24:21
Speaker
No, we know that not all men who use porn are addicts, right?
00:24:25
Speaker
That we certainly know, of course.
00:24:27
Speaker
The question becomes, not are all men addicts, because that's an easy answer, no.
Changes in Men's Sexual Templates Due to Porn
00:24:32
Speaker
It's can you masturbate to porn on a summer, you know, once, twice a week or whatever,
00:24:37
Speaker
and come away unchanged that's the issue and the answer is no you cannot the porn is such a thud to the body just think about what's engaged in the body cognitive emotional the limbic system your dopamine releases i mean when you are masturbating and um orgasming to porn it is an incredible shift
00:25:00
Speaker
in sexual templates in the way that the neurons fire and white in the way that you develop ideas and attitudes you cannot walk away unchanged from porn will you walk away a predator a rapist probably not right if you're not using it regularly or you've not got other issues going on but you will be changed in a very profound way and the question that these men have to ask themselves is really is this who you want to be
00:25:25
Speaker
And this is very interesting, you know, because I lecture in many universities.
00:25:29
Speaker
And what's so interesting is I get at the front row these guys who come in ready to do battle.
00:25:35
Speaker
You can see, you know, there's this smoldering kind of rage coming off them as I come on the stage.
00:25:40
Speaker
They're sitting there with their feet up, their baseball traps turn backwards.
00:25:44
Speaker
And really, they're ready to sit.
00:25:45
Speaker
And then they think, you know, what can this middle-aged woman, what the fuck has she got to say about me and porn?
00:25:50
Speaker
What does she know?
00:25:51
Speaker
And what happens is very interesting because I'm on the stage and I'm above so I can see.
00:25:54
Speaker
And you know what?
00:25:56
Speaker
Within 10 minutes of me talking, if they could reach out and touch me, they would.
00:26:01
Speaker
It's like at last somebody is saying, I'm not a vile, disgusting pig for using porn.
00:26:08
Speaker
Because I say, you know, you are victims of this industry.
00:26:10
Speaker
They are out to get you.
00:26:12
Speaker
They are out to turn you into life support systems for erect penises.
00:26:17
Speaker
And I believe you are worth more.
00:26:18
Speaker
In fact, you know what?
00:26:20
Speaker
Feminists are men's best friends.
00:26:22
Speaker
We all believe men are worth more than the pornographers say.
00:26:25
Speaker
Otherwise, we wouldn't do this work.
00:26:27
Speaker
And at the end, these guys are lining up, some of them in case.
00:26:31
Speaker
Begging me to get them Resources to get off pornography So you know I have to believe Doing this work that these men And it's very interesting Because I show porn in my talks Just stills not films But what happens when men Are
00:26:47
Speaker
and boys are aroused and masturbating to porn, they're not in any position to do a robust deconstruction of the text that they're masturbating
Men Seeking to Quit Porn: Realizations and Resources
00:26:57
Speaker
to.
00:26:57
Speaker
You understand they want to get off and they want to get off as quickly as possible.
00:27:01
Speaker
So what's interesting is when I show the images of porn and read the text, this is probably the first time these guys have ever looked at the porn they're masturbating to without an erection.
00:27:12
Speaker
And it really disturbs them because when I explain what goes on in porn and they know they've been masturbating to this, this shift is, oh my God, is this what I've been looking at?
00:27:24
Speaker
And I remember one guy saying, you know, sometimes after he's come to the porn, he's masturbated to it and he ejaculates, he said, I look at what I was jerking off to and I think, oh my God, it's gross.
00:27:37
Speaker
So I think on many ways this is doing a job on men as well.
00:27:41
Speaker
This is doing a number on men.
00:27:43
Speaker
And again, I want to say to all the men listening, feminists are your best friends.
00:27:48
Speaker
If we did not believe in your capacity for humanity, we'd all go and live in a cave or go off to a desert island together and leave you away.
00:27:56
Speaker
We don't.
00:27:57
Speaker
We do this work because we do believe, not all, by the way, there are guys who need to be dropped into a desert island and left to fight it out with each other.
00:28:05
Speaker
I do say that.
00:28:06
Speaker
Ah, preach.
00:28:07
Speaker
Take all the rapists, take all the murderers and abusers, put them on an island, they can duke it out.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, let them go and do to each other, leave us alone.
00:28:15
Speaker
Just leave us and the children alone.
00:28:18
Speaker
as well, but you know, and I have to say the most humbling experience of my radical feminist life, because I had it really down when I was in 1920, women were good and men were bad.
00:28:29
Speaker
It was very simple, right?
00:28:31
Speaker
And then you know what happened when I was 25?
00:28:33
Speaker
It all got fucked up because I gave birth to a boy.
00:28:36
Speaker
And suddenly my dichotomous thinking didn't hold up because why?
00:28:41
Speaker
The thing I love most in the world was this little boy who was born with every capacity for love and humanity and intimacy.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I'm happy to say his first language was feminism, so he's still like that in his 30s.
00:28:53
Speaker
Okay?
Raising a Son with Feminist Values
00:28:54
Speaker
So it is possible.
00:28:55
Speaker
He is.
00:28:56
Speaker
He's astounding.
00:28:57
Speaker
I mean, he sees things.
00:28:59
Speaker
He sees misogyny before I do because his first language was.
00:29:03
Speaker
And would you like me to tell you a story about that?
00:29:05
Speaker
Please do.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yes, we'd love to see it.
00:29:06
Speaker
So let me give you some hope out there.
00:29:09
Speaker
So when he was at university, he was on tap with some friends for a drink, and he found out we were going to a strip club.
00:29:15
Speaker
And he turned back and went back to his dorm room.
00:29:17
Speaker
And I said to him, you know, why did you do this?
00:29:20
Speaker
And I thought I was going to get the mom violence against women, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:23
Speaker
You know, he said to me, which really was so...
00:29:26
Speaker
He said to me, you know what, mom?
00:29:28
Speaker
He said, I've only got this one body to live in.
00:29:31
Speaker
And I don't think I could have stood to live in this one body if I would have taken part in exploiting a woman.
00:29:37
Speaker
And I thought, that's it.
00:29:39
Speaker
You want the moral compass to come from them.
00:29:43
Speaker
And he had internalized a moral compass of feminism as a male.
00:29:49
Speaker
He wasn't giving his mum's lecture here.
00:29:51
Speaker
He was telling me how he felt.
00:29:54
Speaker
So it is possible.
00:29:55
Speaker
Do not tell me men are not capable of this.
00:29:57
Speaker
And I've been married to the same guy for like 300 years, and he's the most pro-feminist man I've ever seen as well.
00:30:03
Speaker
So I'm surrounded by a lot of good men.
00:30:06
Speaker
I believe in that, which is not to say there's a lot of terrible men out there that women should avoid.
00:30:11
Speaker
right?
00:30:11
Speaker
Because they've been socialised by this patriarchal system to be misogynist.
00:30:15
Speaker
And some you will not bring back, but some you might.
00:30:18
Speaker
We hope so.
00:30:18
Speaker
Anyway, that's the job of, one of the jobs of feminism.
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for saying that, Professor Dines, because I think a lot of the hate we get towards the female dating strategy as well is that we hate men and that we, you know, we want them all to die.
00:30:32
Speaker
And it's sort of, it doesn't make sense because why would we have... Why would we talk about dating them if we want them to die?
00:30:38
Speaker
Like...
00:30:40
Speaker
A bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?
00:30:43
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:30:44
Speaker
So thank you so much for saying that because you put that in such a good way and it's nice to know that men aren't completely irredeemable.
00:30:53
Speaker
Well, we couldn't live with that.
00:30:54
Speaker
You know what?
00:30:55
Speaker
We couldn't stand to believe that because where would we go from there as activists and feminists?
00:31:00
Speaker
It would be over, you know?
00:31:02
Speaker
I think we do need to hold them accountable and I don't think we should be nice to them, right?
00:31:06
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:31:08
Speaker
I don't think we should be nice to them.
00:31:09
Speaker
I agree with that.
00:31:11
Speaker
No, we're not asking for our liberation here.
00:31:13
Speaker
We are demanding it and we will do whatever it takes to get it.
00:31:17
Speaker
Right.
00:31:17
Speaker
We're not saying please, you know, pretty please here.
00:31:19
Speaker
Please free us and liberate us.
00:31:21
Speaker
No, we are going to take it.
00:31:22
Speaker
So you better make sure that you shape up as men because really you don't want it to get nasty that we have to fight to the degree that we're ready to fight.
00:31:29
Speaker
And could you tell us more, Professor Dides, about feminist parenting?
00:31:33
Speaker
Because we get a lot of flack saying that, like, we get people accusing us of being, like, child abusers to our sons, saying, like, I guess when they think of feminist parenting, they just think of, like, a bunch of women standing in a circle around a boy yelling, like, shame, shame, shame.
00:31:49
Speaker
You should hate yourself.
00:31:50
Speaker
I hate you.
00:31:51
Speaker
Men are evil.
00:31:52
Speaker
You're evil.
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:54
Speaker
Low value.
00:31:55
Speaker
Low value, man.
00:31:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:56
Speaker
So how... Ugh.
00:31:57
Speaker
That is so ridiculous.
00:32:01
Speaker
We just recorded an episode yesterday, actually, with an early childhood educator talking about how to raise feminist boys.
00:32:08
Speaker
And so I was wondering, what do you have to add to that idea?
00:32:11
Speaker
How did you go about raising your son to be a feminist?
00:32:13
Speaker
Well, first of all, it was my husband and I doing it together because very important that he had the role model of a man who is pro-feminist, right?
00:32:22
Speaker
Because, I mean, you can't, when you're battling with them, if you're in heterosexual and you're with a man and you're battling with how to raise a son in a feminist way, that is going to cause a shitload of problems.
00:32:33
Speaker
So how we did it was, first of all, no great lectures.
00:32:37
Speaker
The last thing kids want are great lectures, right, to be lectured at.
00:32:41
Speaker
So one of the things we did, it was just from a very early age, we introduced words like sexism, misogyny.
00:32:48
Speaker
So my son would come home at four complaining that his friends had been sexist today and he had to say something.
00:32:55
Speaker
And then he would know these concepts.
00:32:57
Speaker
Another time I walked in on him and he's watching, this is like five years old, and he's watching National Geographic.
00:33:03
Speaker
And he's pointing at the television and he's shaking his head.
00:33:06
Speaker
I said, what's the matter?
00:33:08
Speaker
He said, they keep saying man and his environment.
00:33:10
Speaker
What about women and their environment?
00:33:12
Speaker
So, I mean, these were things he recognized.
00:33:15
Speaker
So what we did was just used very teachable moments.
00:33:19
Speaker
So we'd be driving.
00:33:20
Speaker
And best way to do it with boys is in the car or biking because eye to eye doesn't always work.
00:33:26
Speaker
So we would be driving.
00:33:27
Speaker
I'd say, oh, look at that picture.
00:33:28
Speaker
What's wrong?
00:33:29
Speaker
He'd go, oh, it's really sexist.
00:33:30
Speaker
Look at how her body looks.
00:33:32
Speaker
She's got no clothes on or something like that.
00:33:34
Speaker
And then we would talk about his body.
00:33:36
Speaker
So as a joke, one day he came home and said something like, you know, like the little boys get obsessed with their penis in patriarchy.
00:33:43
Speaker
So he'd say, I'm going to put my, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to put my penis over there because it's so big.
00:33:48
Speaker
And I said, listen, honey, you know what?
00:33:49
Speaker
I said, your penis is connected to your beautiful head and your beautiful heart.
00:33:53
Speaker
So you can't make any decisions about your penis because it's always connected to your head and your heart.
00:33:59
Speaker
So you're all one beautiful body.
00:34:01
Speaker
So just little things like that and then move on to a snack.
00:34:04
Speaker
Not a whole lecture, right?
00:34:06
Speaker
Then other times you come home and say things.
00:34:08
Speaker
Like he wanted to go with his friends to see those, you know, horrible...
00:34:11
Speaker
summer blockbuster movies where a white man saves the world you can't make your kid an outlier so we would let he would go and then but we had an agreement in the family that within two days of him going we had to have a discussion about the foot moving so he'd come home and say okay so what do you think
00:34:27
Speaker
could have happened before it turned into a gunfight?
00:34:30
Speaker
What other ways do you think they could have come to some agreement before it got to?
00:34:34
Speaker
And then we deconstruct movies together.
00:34:36
Speaker
So then when he was 12 and 13, you know, because you've only got until they're about 10 or 11, they think you're the smartest person in the world.
00:34:43
Speaker
And around 11 or 12, you're the biggest idiot that ever walked the earth.
00:34:46
Speaker
So you've got a front row.
00:34:48
Speaker
So then he'd go to the movies and they'd sit down with his friends and we'd discuss it.
00:34:52
Speaker
And he'd come home and I'd say, how was the movie?
00:34:54
Speaker
You know, it was all those awful at that time, Bruce Willis movies or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
00:34:58
Speaker
And he'd say, it was really cool, Mum, I loved it.
00:35:00
Speaker
I said, great.
00:35:01
Speaker
I said, how would I have liked it?
00:35:03
Speaker
He said, Mum, you would have hated it.
00:35:05
Speaker
And I'd say, why?
00:35:06
Speaker
And out of his mouth would come this incredible feminist analysis.
00:35:09
Speaker
But you know what?
00:35:10
Speaker
It was his mother's, not his.
00:35:12
Speaker
But really, he was sitting there with a dual brain.
00:35:15
Speaker
of a 12-year-old enjoying watching the movie and of a 12-year-old deconstructing it from a feminist perspective.
00:35:21
Speaker
And as long as he could argue at that age that it was his mother's analysis and not his, he was free to really go for it.
00:35:28
Speaker
So you've got to step back a little bit and let them have some freedom because you know what?
00:35:33
Speaker
Once you're front-loaded, they come back.
00:35:36
Speaker
They really do.
00:35:36
Speaker
It gets absolutely melded into who they are.
00:35:40
Speaker
And then they respect their own bodies.
00:35:42
Speaker
They have a sense of themselves.
00:35:43
Speaker
And you know what?
00:35:44
Speaker
It's the opposite of boy hating to bring them up as feminists.
00:35:47
Speaker
Boys are not doing well in this culture.
00:35:50
Speaker
They are more likely to die of suicide.
00:35:52
Speaker
They are more likely to die of risky behaviors.
00:35:55
Speaker
Masculinity is not healthy for anyone.
00:35:58
Speaker
Not boys, not girls, not the planet, nothing.
00:36:01
Speaker
So we are really helping.
00:36:02
Speaker
I think bringing up a boy as a feminist is the biggest gift you can give to him.
00:36:07
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:36:08
Speaker
I'm thinking him up in toxic masculinity.
00:36:11
Speaker
I think he's terrible.
00:36:12
Speaker
I feel so sorry for those poor little boys where you see their parents screaming at them, you know, to be more macho and more boyish.
00:36:18
Speaker
And these poor little boys don't fit into that mold.
00:36:21
Speaker
Most of them don't.
00:36:22
Speaker
They get scrunched into it, not by the parents, by the culture, until they end up really kind of truncated human beings, really truncated, where their emotional life has been almost wiped off the map.
00:36:36
Speaker
You mentioned you and your husband raising your son together.
00:36:39
Speaker
And so, you know, we say all the time, like, you should focus on finding a high quality man, so that when you raise children together, you're on the same team and can do a great job of raising, you know, your kids together.
00:36:52
Speaker
So how did you can you tell us how you met your husband?
00:36:54
Speaker
Like, what?
00:36:55
Speaker
How did you vet for him?
00:36:56
Speaker
How did you vet him?
00:36:57
Speaker
How did you find out that he was a good man?
Setting Non-Negotiable Feminist Ground Rules in Relationships
00:36:59
Speaker
I didn't.
00:37:00
Speaker
It was an accident.
00:37:01
Speaker
Do you know what?
00:37:02
Speaker
I decided the goddess smiled on me that day.
00:37:04
Speaker
I remember we were both 19 at university and I saw him and the first thing I thought was he has the kindest face I've ever seen.
00:37:16
Speaker
And you know what?
00:37:16
Speaker
I was right.
00:37:17
Speaker
40 odd years later, I can say the same thing.
00:37:21
Speaker
He's the gentlest, kindest male.
00:37:23
Speaker
And he did not grow up in a pro-feminist family, believe me.
00:37:26
Speaker
His parents did not have him married to a radical feminist.
00:37:29
Speaker
That was not their idea of what their son should be married to.
00:37:32
Speaker
You should be married to a, I'm Jewish, but a nice Jewish girl who stays home and makes some chicken soup on a Friday night.
00:37:38
Speaker
You know, that was their image.
00:37:39
Speaker
Alas, he's the one who makes the chicken soup on a Friday night, you know.
00:37:42
Speaker
Nice.
00:37:43
Speaker
But it was an accident.
00:37:44
Speaker
But what was very interesting was when we were dating, he had the heart, but he didn't have the cognitive understanding.
00:37:51
Speaker
I remember we were at a dinner party with friends.
00:37:53
Speaker
You know, we were in college and we made this fancy dinner party once.
00:37:56
Speaker
And there was eight couples with very, you know, heterosexual, four men, four women.
00:38:02
Speaker
halfway through the dinner we notice that we're the only ones left at the table.
00:38:06
Speaker
The other three couples have gone to have sex and we're fighting with each other over feminism and everyone else is having sex and we are having this blazing argument about, because he didn't really get it in the beginning although he felt it and I turned around and I said to him,
00:38:21
Speaker
His name's David.
00:38:22
Speaker
People know who he is.
00:38:23
Speaker
I don't mention my son's name, but I'll mention his name.
00:38:25
Speaker
And I said to him, David, if you want this relationship to go any further, then you have to agree that my civil rights are not up for negotiation and they were equal to yours.
00:38:35
Speaker
And he turned around and he said, God, you're right.
00:38:37
Speaker
You're absolutely right.
00:38:39
Speaker
And that was it.
00:38:40
Speaker
Finished.
00:38:41
Speaker
And he has been my role.
00:38:42
Speaker
I mean, you know, we even work together.
00:38:44
Speaker
He's a professor of economics and his area is mainly in climate change.
00:38:48
Speaker
But he's now become an expert in the porn industry.
00:38:51
Speaker
And we write together on the business model of the porn industry.
00:38:54
Speaker
So I don't think this is where he thought he'd be married to a woman who spends her life looking at porn either.
00:38:58
Speaker
But it turns out he's been by my side the whole time.
00:39:01
Speaker
And what's about a good man is they not only know when to be by your side, they know when to be in front of you and when to stand behind you.
00:39:09
Speaker
they know that.
00:39:10
Speaker
And I have to say, you know, I'm a radical feminist.
00:39:14
Speaker
I do this work, you know, as you can tell, I don't sit on what I think.
00:39:19
Speaker
I'm in your face.
00:39:20
Speaker
And I don't know how I managed to get so lucky to be a radical feminist and end up with a man who actually completely supports me.
00:39:26
Speaker
He's married a strong woman, not to destroy her, but to make her stronger, which is very unusual, very unusual.
00:39:32
Speaker
And what I'm saying to the listeners is,
00:39:34
Speaker
Most importantly, there are, look, these men are not falling from the trees, let's be honest, Riley.
00:39:40
Speaker
But if you, and most men you are going to have to work with, you're not going to find one who comes to you fully, you know, developed as a feminist and understanding.
00:39:50
Speaker
But if you can work with them and you have to decide how much work you're willing to put in.
00:39:54
Speaker
And if this is not somebody who's going to be in your life very long, then don't bother to spend it.
00:39:59
Speaker
But if you think this is someone who's going to be in your life, let me tell you, those times that him and I did not have sex but stood across the table from each other arguing around feminism was so much more important than having sex.
00:40:10
Speaker
We could have plenty of sex later on when we'd figured out that this is going to be a feminist relationship.
NoFap and Increased Male Awareness of Porn's Harms
00:40:15
Speaker
The most important thing was making it clear, first and foremost, that if this is going to continue, these are the ground rules and they're non-negotiable.
00:40:23
Speaker
I have to say, I've seen a lot of men start coming around on the porn issue, especially on Reddit.
00:40:28
Speaker
There's a growing community called r slash nofap.
00:40:33
Speaker
And there's a lot of men who are now recognizing that porn has had a negative influence on their lives because I think for the last two generations who have grown up with the internet,
00:40:44
Speaker
a lot of them started watching porn at single digit ages.
00:40:47
Speaker
And so they've developed a dependency on it that it's now, you know, as they're getting older and they're starting to cognitively understand that it's having a negative effect on them.
00:40:56
Speaker
I find this interesting because I think about 10 years ago, especially when your book came out, it was, it was met with such backlash.
00:41:03
Speaker
But now it seems like the ideas are starting to take hold in men.
00:41:08
Speaker
Have you noticed that trend?
00:41:09
Speaker
Yes.
00:41:10
Speaker
I've,
00:41:11
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:41:11
Speaker
Look, I think we've polarized.
00:41:13
Speaker
We've got those guys who are digging into their porn even more.
00:41:17
Speaker
And we've got those guys who are deciding this is not the way I want to live.
00:41:21
Speaker
And certainly that NoFap has got a huge amount of following.
00:41:24
Speaker
There's also Reboot Nation by Gabe Deem that has got a lot of followers.
00:41:28
Speaker
I think they're beginning to realize what porn is doing to them.
00:41:31
Speaker
But you know what the problem is, is that the Women's Studies Academy has been hijacked by the pro-porn feminists.
00:41:39
Speaker
And really, this would be a place where men could learn, and women, of course, but let's talk about men at the moment, where men could learn about the harms of porn.
00:41:46
Speaker
And unfortunately, what they're doing is these faux feminists in the academy are giving them a pass.
00:41:53
Speaker
to use porn in their sort of pro-porn position.
00:41:56
Speaker
So I think that's, and I think these women are being so, these academic women are being so unfair to younger women who have to live with the fallout of men getting a pass to use porn.
00:42:07
Speaker
And I want to give an example of this, if I may.
00:42:10
Speaker
So when Pornland came out, and actually it was very interesting.
00:42:13
Speaker
I got a ton of people from the porn industry writing to me, telling me, God, you've got it so right.
00:42:18
Speaker
Let me tell you my story.
00:42:19
Speaker
I had tons of interviews following it.
Facing Opposition from the Pro-Porn Lobby
00:42:22
Speaker
porn land with um people in the porn industry the performers the producers the directors but let me tell you something a very interesting story so it got selected at the sydney writers festival in australia so i went out there and i have to say it was probably the hardest two weeks of my professional life because the pro porn lobby in australia was waiting for me and they followed me around to every single lecture radio and tv show i did so the first thing i had to do was a
00:42:51
Speaker
for the Writers' Festival was a gig talking about pornography.
00:42:55
Speaker
And they put me on a panel with four pro-porn women, some of them academics and me.
00:43:02
Speaker
So I was, and the worst one was the facilitator, right?
00:43:05
Speaker
So I was back.
00:43:06
Speaker
pulling it out like crazy and so there was four against one and they were going on about how great Paul was and how empowering anyway at one point and this now you have to just just set the setting there was over a thousand people in this room I couldn't see and there was so many the spotlights were on us all you've got a sense of the energy of a thousand people
00:43:27
Speaker
And at one point, I think it was the facilitator, turned to me and said, Gail Dines, you've got no research.
00:43:33
Speaker
You've only got anecdotes.
00:43:35
Speaker
By the way, I had all the research with me, but it didn't matter.
00:43:37
Speaker
But she said, you've only got anecdotes.
00:43:40
Speaker
And about to open my mouth to start arguing about the research.
00:43:43
Speaker
And at the back of the room, I couldn't see a young woman stands up.
00:43:46
Speaker
and says, I'm an anecdote.
00:43:48
Speaker
And then another one.
00:43:49
Speaker
And then suddenly the room is standing up with women screaming, I'm an anecdote.
00:43:54
Speaker
I'm an anecdote.
00:43:56
Speaker
Because these women had no clue what lives were like for young women.
00:44:00
Speaker
And the young women were fighting back.
00:44:03
Speaker
And it was a wonderful, wonderful moment to see that.
00:44:06
Speaker
That's so powerful.
00:44:08
Speaker
It was powerful to be a part of it and to see their raid.
00:44:11
Speaker
All of these women who were on the panel were in their 40s and 50s,
00:44:15
Speaker
heterosexual, married, academic.
00:44:18
Speaker
They didn't know what life is like there for young women trying to navigate their way through this porn-filled culture.
00:44:24
Speaker
We've captured a lot of that audience as part of female dating strategy.
00:44:29
Speaker
And that has been very, very frustrating because we've been covered in the media and a lot of our support has come from somewhat conservative or at least moderate cultural critics.
Generational Divides in Feminism on Me Too
00:44:40
Speaker
But the
00:44:41
Speaker
the liberal side of it is all out attack on us, like all out attack on our criticisms of BDSM, all out attack on our criticism of porn in general.
00:44:51
Speaker
And yeah, I can't help but feel that a lot of it comes from just what you said is there's two factions.
00:44:58
Speaker
There's the older guard of feminists who just do not understand the ubiquitousness of porn culture and
00:45:05
Speaker
They were even criticizing a lot of millennials and Gen Z and our response to the Me Too movement because they felt like the things that we would bring up were like, oh, this isn't real assault or like this is like a... You're making a big deal of nothing.
00:45:17
Speaker
Wow.
00:45:18
Speaker
Wow.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:20
Speaker
Because they don't understand that.
00:45:21
Speaker
It's not even that it's just one incident.
00:45:22
Speaker
It's just the volume of incidents because of how ubiquitous it is in the culture now because of porn.
00:45:28
Speaker
It's not unusual to have guys like grab you, choke you, slap you, you know, do pornify things.
00:45:34
Speaker
They don't understand.
00:45:35
Speaker
Mainstream now.
00:45:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:37
Speaker
And so FDS has been integral in pushing back on that.
00:45:40
Speaker
But I mean, it does feel like we're up against a massive machine of both the media and academics on this.
00:45:46
Speaker
Can I just say, I love you.
00:45:48
Speaker
Oh, thank you.
00:45:49
Speaker
I love you too, Gail.
00:45:50
Speaker
You are doing such fantastic work.
00:45:53
Speaker
Honest to God, you are doing the goddesses work here because so many young women think they're going nuts.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:59
Speaker
You know, once this is over, I am going to spread the word about you everywhere because you are a lifesaver.
00:46:06
Speaker
Do you know, women come up to me saying this, I'm so alone, I'm so, I didn't even know you existed.
00:46:12
Speaker
So I am going to be your biggest fans.
00:46:14
Speaker
I'm going to spread it everywhere I can because this is so important because I meet so many young women who are so isolated.
00:46:22
Speaker
But let me give a sort of international level here.
00:46:26
Speaker
This is very true.
00:46:28
Speaker
of the United States and the United Kingdom.
00:46:31
Speaker
It is not true of Southern and South America, right?
00:46:34
Speaker
Let me explain why.
00:46:35
Speaker
I travel to Brazil.
00:46:37
Speaker
I've traveled to Colombia.
00:46:39
Speaker
I give lectures in Argentina.
00:46:41
Speaker
I go all over the globe.
00:46:42
Speaker
And what is astounding, I want to give you an example in Brazil.
00:46:46
Speaker
So I gave, I was in Brazil just, I think, was it two years ago?
00:46:50
Speaker
And I
00:46:52
Speaker
I did like lots of lectures and what was stunning to me was the radical feminist anti-porn came out in their droves all in their 20s.
00:47:02
Speaker
all in their 20s.
00:47:04
Speaker
Normally in the United States and UK, it's older women.
00:47:07
Speaker
And in one point when I was speaking in San Paolo, I put out on my Facebook that I'm in San Paolo, I've got this day free, I'm willing to do a discussion with radical feminists
Young Radical Feminists in Latin America
00:47:19
Speaker
wherever you are and we'll book a room.
00:47:21
Speaker
Do you know we booked a room for 50, we had 250 turnips, some flew into San Paolo
00:47:27
Speaker
And I'd say everyone in that room was under 30.
00:47:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I'm so impressed by.
00:47:32
Speaker
A lot of our followers are from Latin America and I'm so proud of our sisters there who are, yeah, in their 20s and are radical feminists.
00:47:40
Speaker
And I'm like, that's amazing.
00:47:42
Speaker
Totally.
00:47:43
Speaker
You know what it is in a way here?
00:47:44
Speaker
It's the ones who get access to the media and get heard tend to be the more privileged.
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:52
Speaker
Oh, yes.
00:47:53
Speaker
And that's where I think you get this problem, is that they're speaking from their own life experiences.
00:48:00
Speaker
They have not got the...
00:48:02
Speaker
I don't know whether it's the theoretical understanding or the lived experience, but to understand that how you experience life, even if you are in your 30s and 40s and have navigated your way through the porn culture, that means shit for the average 20-odd-year-old who has got to deal with these guys.
00:48:19
Speaker
And I don't know what's missing here is why these older women who have, you know, often are not even dating or
00:48:25
Speaker
have got with somebody why are they putting young women in this terrible situation and not having an ounce of empathy because I would hear from my students you know just what it was like out there what a nightmare and how many of them would tell me about they start by saying they had a bad night last night didn't go well turns out it was they'd been raped you know but they they didn't want to turn that and
00:48:50
Speaker
And once women, you know, and I've been on the same college for over 30 years, and my door was constantly open because women who I didn't even teach at the college would come to me with their rapes, because at last somebody would listen to them
00:49:06
Speaker
and not think it's your fault because you got drunk or it's your fault because you went into the room with
Older Feminists and Challenges for Young Women
00:49:11
Speaker
him.
00:49:11
Speaker
And sometimes, you know, I would actually have a line outside of my office with young women wanting to doing intakes at the rape crisis centre on my office phone because they didn't want to do it on their own.
00:49:22
Speaker
I mean, that's how bad it was.
00:49:23
Speaker
And I am so angry at these older women and some of the third wave younger feminists who have completely thrown their sisters under the bus and their daughters under the bus.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah, we call these liberal fairy tales where...
00:49:38
Speaker
Liberal fairy tales.
00:49:39
Speaker
That's a phrase we use a lot where, you know, they're talking about this theoretical, like, academic, if we lived in a perfect world where everyone was consenting and everyone was fair and there were no misogynists and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:49:52
Speaker
But the thing is, is we don't fucking live in that world, okay?
00:49:55
Speaker
The reality on the ground for women is completely different.
00:49:59
Speaker
And so many of what these academics... And, like, I mean, I went to university, too, right?
00:50:03
Speaker
Like, I, you know, I like...
00:50:06
Speaker
I'm not, it's not like, oh, stupid women or uneducated women are, you know, anti-porn or something.
00:50:13
Speaker
I don't know.
00:50:13
Speaker
Like, they've created this weird thing where like, oh, if you're a real intellectual like me, you're pro-porn or you're, you know, do this and that, right?
00:50:20
Speaker
And so if you don't agree with me, you're not an intellectual or something.
00:50:23
Speaker
I don't know.
00:50:24
Speaker
So, but we call these liberal fairy tales where they, you know, they're talking about a world that
00:50:30
Speaker
You know, if everything was great and perfect, then it would work, maybe.
00:50:33
Speaker
But we don't live in that world.
00:50:34
Speaker
And so we have to interact with the world as it is right now.
00:50:36
Speaker
Totally.
00:50:38
Speaker
And they do ignore the working class a lot.
00:50:40
Speaker
And that's actually been another criticism we've had is that, like, they live in a world where their idea of equality is based on a white collar workforce.
00:50:51
Speaker
Right.
00:50:51
Speaker
Versus, you know, for people who are in blue and pink collar jobs in which like gender negotiations are way more complicated.
00:50:58
Speaker
And the idea of equity is a little bit more complicated because you're not dealing with a person that's working the same kind of, you know, with blue collar work, it's, you know, it privileges male physical strength with pink collar work.
00:51:08
Speaker
It tends to privilege women working in more nurturing or more caretaking professions.
00:51:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:51:13
Speaker
And so those kinds of women exist.
00:51:16
Speaker
And it does feel like they flat out ignore that to have this like fairytale idea of perfect gender, like gender neutral, gender balance, gender equality and sexual equality that just does not play out for women who don't work in these very privileged, very niche places.
00:51:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:33
Speaker
Exactly.
00:51:34
Speaker
And I can add something that's really interesting because we're trying to do it at the academy.
00:51:37
Speaker
I have to say the worst places to go to try and give over analysis of
00:51:43
Speaker
porn as violence against women is the ivies of the top colleges if i'm going to some community college in iowa or idaho even in massachusetts you don't get this pro-porn petition it's really the ivies where it comes at you the most
00:51:59
Speaker
And again, it's because no accident that these are the most privileged, but you do not see it in colleges where you've got, you know, many working class
Resistance to Anti-Porn Stances in Academia
00:52:06
Speaker
women.
00:52:06
Speaker
And remember one thing, you know, working class women need to be much street smarter.
00:52:11
Speaker
Money buys you the privilege to be stupid.
00:52:13
Speaker
Exactly.
00:52:16
Speaker
If you've got a lot of money, you don't need to know how to do things because you pay people to do them for you.
00:52:24
Speaker
Whereas if you need to do everything on your own, you know, you cannot afford not to be realistic, have your eyes wide open and be strategic about how you live your life because life is so difficult.
00:52:35
Speaker
So I think that's a critical part here.
00:52:37
Speaker
And sometimes often when I'll go to an Ivy University and I get a really particularly difficult
00:52:42
Speaker
stupid, awful question.
00:52:44
Speaker
I think to myself, you've got to have a PhD to ask such a question.
00:52:48
Speaker
You know, only a PhD can ask that.
00:52:51
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:52
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:52:52
Speaker
We were saying the same thing.
00:52:54
Speaker
Why are PhD people so fucking stupid?
00:52:56
Speaker
Because you're taught not to feel you taught you.
00:53:00
Speaker
And also remember to get a job, you have to, you cannot get published if you're anti-porn.
00:53:05
Speaker
It's almost impossible to get published.
00:53:07
Speaker
So what happens is, I mean, I would not, if I was now going on the job market, I would never get a job with my politics and left politics.
00:53:14
Speaker
anti-porn radical feminist forget it so today what's happened is you can't get published publication is your seat to tenure um you are excluded from the academy you are ridiculed the very way you cannot do your work basically so what you see is i think a lot of women crumbling or
00:53:35
Speaker
Those who are anti-porn, and I understand this, stay quiet because this is their livelihood.
00:53:40
Speaker
They need to get tenure or keep their job.
00:53:42
Speaker
So, you know, the academy has really become a kind of policing institution for this kind of thing.
Encouraging Intellectual Debate and Critical Thinking
00:53:48
Speaker
Yeah, I had so many issues with that when I was in school as well, where, you know, oh, we're a campus of, you know, free ideas and free thought and stuff.
00:53:57
Speaker
But really, in reality, there's only a very narrow set of ideas that, you know, and I learned very early on in school, if I wanted to get good grades, I had to just regurgitate whatever the professor was saying.
00:54:08
Speaker
Well, that's outrageous.
00:54:09
Speaker
That's outrageous.
00:54:10
Speaker
You know, because I would say to my students, you don't have to agree with me, but you have to make really good arguments if you disagree.
00:54:15
Speaker
and bring up the research but nobody gets brownie points in my class for agreeing with me you get brownie points for making good solid scientific and theoretical arguments so that you become a thinker and a critic you know and I had some students not many because after taking class with me most of them were anti-porn but I had a few who still were and that was fine as long as they could make arguments for it and you know
00:54:38
Speaker
That was okay.
00:54:40
Speaker
But you really want to create free thinking intellectuals who have the courage to go against the hegemonic thinking.
00:54:49
Speaker
That's really what progressive pedagogy is, is you bring up the hegemony, the dominant ideology, you give them the tools to deconstruct it and think of a counter hegemonic discourse.
00:55:00
Speaker
I honestly think they're afraid even outside of academia is because so much of the media hires from the same kinds of schools and the same kinds of thinkers that a lot of times we see magazines that are geared towards young women that often have young women writing for them, but they're
00:55:18
Speaker
regurgitating the same kinds of ideas that you'll hear at a lot of like Ivy liberal arts colleges because they know they won't get hired as a journalist or, you know, the pro porn lobby is always a lucrative advertising
Media's Support of Porn Culture
00:55:33
Speaker
market.
00:55:33
Speaker
It's so powerful.
00:55:35
Speaker
Like, right.
00:55:35
Speaker
Exactly.
00:55:36
Speaker
Exactly.
00:55:37
Speaker
Well, you know, you know what else is very interesting because I deal with the media all the time and I have to say, you know, when I have time with, you know,
00:55:46
Speaker
journalists young women and we talk and then they start to map their lives i i almost caused a mini revolution at cosmopolitan oh my gosh tell us this story i'm dying to hear it so i'm not going to mention any names but there was a group there was one woman particularly who was uh young but really felt that porn wasn't okay and we spent a long time in the interview she brought others on so they formed a little group
00:56:10
Speaker
to start putting in anti-porn stuff in.
00:56:14
Speaker
And this was a few years ago.
00:56:15
Speaker
Now, I haven't seen them lately.
00:56:17
Speaker
I wonder if they got fired.
00:56:18
Speaker
But they were writing to me, and I was helping them figure out stories and stuff about how to get it in ways that it would be sort of
00:56:25
Speaker
It would look, it would be on the down low kind of thing, but at least they would get anti-pulmer.
00:56:29
Speaker
And they were great.
00:56:30
Speaker
And they were so frustrated with Cosmopolitan.
00:56:33
Speaker
Let me tell you, but they, you know, they have, these are top jobs when you're looking to be a journalist.
00:56:38
Speaker
I've even had, you know, one of the worst is Vice magazine.
00:56:41
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:56:43
Speaker
They roasted us.
00:56:44
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:56:46
Speaker
They must hate you.
00:56:47
Speaker
Right.
00:56:48
Speaker
They hate me.
00:56:48
Speaker
They hate us.
00:56:49
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:56:50
Speaker
But you know, it's really interesting.
00:56:52
Speaker
I've got friends at Vice and I have,
00:56:56
Speaker
them figure out ways.
00:56:57
Speaker
So there's been a few articles in Vice where I've sort of taken a more Marxist critical approach to the porn industry and this has really interested a few of the journalists.
00:57:07
Speaker
So there's some you can get hold of.
00:57:09
Speaker
So I mean and then I get the journalists who call up and say so Gail Dines you're an anti-porn
00:57:16
Speaker
Christian book burner, right winger.
00:57:19
Speaker
And I say, well, actually, I'm a left-wing radical feminist Jew, so you've got a few things wrong here.
00:57:25
Speaker
They slam the phone down on me.
00:57:27
Speaker
They literally, the phone goes, because they realize now they haven't got me in that little pace they want to put me.
00:57:34
Speaker
You know, I did my PhD on the Marxist theory of culture applied to pornography.
00:57:40
Speaker
How are you going to put me in the right-wing book-burning
00:57:43
Speaker
Plus, you know, I'm Jewish.
00:57:45
Speaker
Jews do not tend to have an issue around sex, right?
00:57:48
Speaker
We have lots of issues, believe me.
00:57:50
Speaker
We're very neurotic people, but we do not tend to be that neurotic around sex, okay?
00:57:54
Speaker
So, I mean, they can't, and so when they can't pigeonhole you to get rid of you, really, sometimes the phone is literally slammed down on me.
00:58:03
Speaker
I love a good Marxist analysis, so thank you so much for that, yeah.
00:58:06
Speaker
Well, you can't understand porn without understanding Marx's analysis of capitalism.
Pornography: Capitalist Commodification
00:58:11
Speaker
I mean, that's where sort of my husband and I really write about, is understanding the role of capitalism in pushing forward the porn industry and the way that porn...
00:58:21
Speaker
is actually capitalism part excellence right you know mark said so interestingly you know like during the industrial revolution i don't know how he understood this but he said capitalism will sink into every single nook and cranny of your life how did he know that then and now here we have the most private intimate parts of our life our sexuality
00:58:45
Speaker
commodified by patriarchal capitalism.
00:58:47
Speaker
How did he know that was going to happen?
00:58:49
Speaker
Brilliant.
00:58:49
Speaker
You know, you read Marx and you think this guy had like, he must have had a crystal ball into the future because I don't know how he understood what was going to happen.
00:58:57
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:58:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:58
Speaker
And I wanted to ask you about
00:59:01
Speaker
you know, on the topic of academia, one of the arguments I hear is, you know, oh, being against porn means you're anti-free speech, and that if you care about free speech, you should be fine with porn or something along those lines.
Navigating Relationships in a Porn-Dominated World
00:59:16
Speaker
So how do you counter the free speech argument?
00:59:19
Speaker
Well, I don't.
00:59:20
Speaker
I completely believe in free speech, which is why I don't think the pornographers should have stolen the speech around sexuality and relationships.
00:59:28
Speaker
Who has stolen the narrative here?
00:59:31
Speaker
Who is the dominant partner in writing the narrative about sex in our culture?
00:59:36
Speaker
It's the porn industry using its billion dollars to shut us all down.
00:59:41
Speaker
I wish I had free speech.
00:59:42
Speaker
I would have loved free speech, okay?
00:59:44
Speaker
I want as much speech as the pornographers have.
00:59:47
Speaker
Then we've got free speech.
00:59:49
Speaker
They use that argument because those with free speech shut us up by making us silent because we don't have the dollars.
00:59:55
Speaker
Speech is not free.
00:59:57
Speaker
It is the most expensive commodity you can buy.
00:59:59
Speaker
Look, we can do shows like this, which are great, but I can't get into the New York Times.
01:00:04
Speaker
I can't get the same reach as Pornhub.
01:00:06
Speaker
That takes money.
01:00:07
Speaker
So I would say, let's put your money where your mouth is and give us free speech.
01:00:11
Speaker
Give us the reach.
01:00:12
Speaker
Because when you say free speech, you don't mean the freedom to speak.
01:00:15
Speaker
You mean the capacity to be heard.
01:00:18
Speaker
And nobody gets heard like the porn industry.
01:00:20
Speaker
Yes.
01:00:21
Speaker
Professor Dines, I just wanted to circle back quickly and ask, because I'm like, Lilith's touched on the fact that liberal feminists tend to live in a bit of a dream world and not really see the world as it is.
01:00:32
Speaker
So if we accept that porn has infiltrated society, even women who are anti-porn have been affected somewhat by the presence of the porn industry.
01:00:44
Speaker
How do you think we can navigate as women, and also men as well, how can we navigate a world that is full of porn, that is with all the positive messaging around porn, how can we navigate that?
01:01:00
Speaker
and develop healthy relationships with ourselves and our sexualities?
01:01:04
Speaker
Right, well the answer of course is a feminist revolution, radical feminist revolution, but that's not going to happen tomorrow, okay?
01:01:11
Speaker
And meanwhile you have to live in this world, okay?
01:01:14
Speaker
So first of all I would say absolutely we have to reboot radical feminism until it becomes the major form of feminism.
01:01:22
Speaker
No question.
01:01:22
Speaker
But meanwhile, the really question is, why are we doing this work and this collective action?
01:01:27
Speaker
How are young women going to live in a world where they do want to be partners?
01:01:31
Speaker
They want someone to love and, you know, them to love somebody and that person love them.
01:01:38
Speaker
I get that.
01:01:39
Speaker
So I think...
01:01:39
Speaker
First of all, shows like yours are absolutely crucial, which is why I'm going to advertise the hell out of not just this show but other ones.
01:01:46
Speaker
But I think one of the things that we said is that you look for the few good men out there and you're going to have to really train them into this.
01:01:56
Speaker
And if they put up a real fight, you have to walk away and do that.
01:02:01
Speaker
But, you know, in a way, the question you're asking me is like, how do I avoid polluted air?
01:02:07
Speaker
You can't.
01:02:08
Speaker
That's why we need, you know, governmental organizations, you know, kind of a joke, but to cut down pollution.
01:02:15
Speaker
You can't do this alone.
01:02:17
Speaker
And it breaks my heart to not be able to say, here's the 10 easy steps to do this.
01:02:21
Speaker
Because I know the pain that women are in.
01:02:24
Speaker
And I know the frustrations.
01:02:25
Speaker
And I know, because I saw it day in, day out in my classes, you know.
01:02:29
Speaker
And I felt so much for these young women.
01:02:32
Speaker
It was so painful to hear their stories.
01:02:34
Speaker
So, I mean, I think I'm looking to people like you to say this, is that maybe let's try and think about your program, doing websites, having Facebook pages where we can be of support, where women have questions about how do I get my boyfriend to stop using porn?
01:02:51
Speaker
And if we say, you know, if you've talked about it,
01:02:53
Speaker
Get rid of him.
01:02:54
Speaker
Women need to get a reality check because this is one big mass gaslighting society.
01:03:00
Speaker
And you already think you're going mad because the guy that you're having sex with said, you know, my last girlfriend loved it up the ass.
01:03:05
Speaker
What's wrong with you?
01:03:07
Speaker
You've got your academics saying this.
01:03:09
Speaker
You've got the media saying this.
01:03:11
Speaker
I mean, I'm amazed that young women stay sane in this world, given what's coming at them.
01:03:15
Speaker
And this is what makes me the most upset and the most crazy.
01:03:19
Speaker
You know, feminism was fought for by our foremothers.
01:03:23
Speaker
They really did.
01:03:23
Speaker
And now my generation is that generation.
01:03:26
Speaker
And we have an obligation to our daughters to make this world a livable place.
01:03:32
Speaker
And I think we have sold you short.
01:03:35
Speaker
We have completely sold you short.
01:03:37
Speaker
And I just wish I had the answer because I know what life is like.
01:03:40
Speaker
But the only thing I can say to women
01:03:43
Speaker
is, you know, read as much as you can from the anti-porn feminist position and never sell yourself short.
01:03:50
Speaker
Never settle.
01:03:51
Speaker
You are too important, you are too precious, and you deserve more than to settle for some guy who's not going to treat you the way that you deserve to be treated.
01:04:00
Speaker
Absolutely not.
01:04:02
Speaker
And you know what?
01:04:02
Speaker
One day you will look in the mirror if you do that and you'll say, who have I become and who am I?
01:04:08
Speaker
Please don't do that to yourself.
01:04:09
Speaker
Please.
01:04:10
Speaker
Thank you so much.
01:04:11
Speaker
Do you have anything that you'd like to plug or promote on our podcast before I do our outro?
01:04:16
Speaker
Oh, wait, we forgot to ask about Culture Reframe.
01:04:19
Speaker
Oh, right.
01:04:20
Speaker
Sorry.
01:04:21
Speaker
No, that's what I wanted to ask about because we get parents asking us all the time.
01:04:25
Speaker
They're horrified when they find our subreddit and are terrified of how do I protect my daughter?
01:04:31
Speaker
Well, we've got the answer.
01:04:32
Speaker
This is one thing we do have some answers to.
01:04:34
Speaker
So we started four years ago.
01:04:37
Speaker
In these four years, we have built the
01:04:40
Speaker
the only programs in the world that helps parents teach their children to be poor and resilient and resistant.
01:04:47
Speaker
It is built by a multidisciplinary team of pediatricians, nurses, sex health experts,
01:04:56
Speaker
sociologists, parent advisors, it's built for parents, we've got two, one for parents of tweens, one for parents of teens.
01:05:06
Speaker
You can go in for five minutes to each one, five hours, five days, it's chock full of great stuff, it's accessible, it's free.
01:05:13
Speaker
We made it free because we wanted to make sure that any parent, irrespective of socioeconomic background, could afford
01:05:20
Speaker
it and go in there we've got as much of what we're teaching you step by step is how to have these conversations what we say to parents is you do not have 100 minute conversation you have 101 minute conversations and we've even got scripts on what to have we've laid out the scripts
01:05:39
Speaker
From you kid, you kid, you kid.
01:05:42
Speaker
And we assume that your kid would rather be anywhere else in the world than speaking to you about pornography.
01:05:46
Speaker
So we've even got second scripts that tell you if it goes bad, how to come back to it.
01:05:50
Speaker
So we lay out the groundwork, how to set the scene.
01:05:54
Speaker
We have a model called compose yourself.
01:05:56
Speaker
So if you feel you're getting aggravated, shut the conversation down, go and read the book.
01:06:01
Speaker
the culture reframe compose yourself to calm yourself down go back and do a do-over and we say above all never shame or blame your kid if you want to shame and blame anyone you shame and blame the porn industry you shame and blame the culture that has allowed this to happen and the porn industry to hijack our kids so this is for parents and it took each one took about a year and a half to write it's been peer-reviewed over and over again and it is accessible
01:06:29
Speaker
lots of great videos you can show your kids you can sit with so this is our gift to the world it's a parents and caregivers and in fact it's now being translated it's been translated into turkish we're talking with people to translate it into spanish portuguese it's being used in sweden norway iceland brazil turkey south america everywhere you go and it's being used by also because it's so robust it's being used by doctors pediatricians nurses sexual health experts
01:06:59
Speaker
And in October the 2nd and 3rd, and everyone should mark the calendar down because it will be on the Culture Reframe website, how to
Culture Reframe Conference on Sex Education
01:07:06
Speaker
get onto it.
01:07:06
Speaker
We are doing the first ever, by Zoom, conference on how to teach sex ed with a porn critical lens.
01:07:13
Speaker
Amazing.
01:07:14
Speaker
I'm going to put that in my Google calendar right now.
01:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, we'd love to have you.
01:07:19
Speaker
Actually, you know what?
01:07:21
Speaker
It would be great for you to do a workshop.
01:07:23
Speaker
Would you do that?
01:07:25
Speaker
Yes.
01:07:25
Speaker
Yes.
01:07:26
Speaker
Okay, I'm putting you... You're right, right.
01:07:28
Speaker
We'll get in touch after this because I think what you could talk about would be so important in your experiences.
01:07:35
Speaker
So I'm going to put you down for a workshop.
01:07:36
Speaker
So for everyone listening out there, this is the first ever conference where we are going to look at, and not just school-based sex ed, but all types of sex ed.
01:07:44
Speaker
How do you take...
01:07:46
Speaker
because everyone's teaching sex ed as if we're living in the 20th century.
01:07:50
Speaker
We don't.
01:07:50
Speaker
We live in a society which is porn-fueled.
01:07:53
Speaker
By the time kids get to sex ed, if they ever do, they've already got their sexual template formed by porn.
01:07:59
Speaker
So how do we teach sex ed in the real world right now in a pornified culture?
01:08:04
Speaker
So we've got speakers from all over the world.
01:08:06
Speaker
We're going to have breakout sessions.
01:08:08
Speaker
It's going to be fabulous.
01:08:10
Speaker
And you're speaking.
01:08:11
Speaker
This is it.
01:08:11
Speaker
This is so great.
01:08:13
Speaker
Yes.
01:08:13
Speaker
So excited for it.
01:08:14
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:15
Speaker
This was wonderful.
01:08:15
Speaker
I have to say this was such fun.
01:08:17
Speaker
What can I say?
01:08:18
Speaker
It was just wonderful speaking to you.
01:08:20
Speaker
And I just want to applaud you for your work.
01:08:22
Speaker
Really.
01:08:23
Speaker
You've made my day.
01:08:24
Speaker
I mean, I got this email from somebody I'd never heard of before and thought, you know, I'll do it.
01:08:28
Speaker
Well, I'm so happy I did it because you're doing the most wonderful work and you're, you're keeping so many young women sane.
01:08:35
Speaker
Do you know that?
01:08:36
Speaker
It's fantastic.
01:08:37
Speaker
I salute you for your work.
01:08:38
Speaker
Thank you so much, Professor Dines.
01:08:40
Speaker
You were just an absolute... Well, call me gay, please.
01:08:42
Speaker
You're on first-night terms now.
01:08:44
Speaker
Oh, Samantha, you're so formal.
01:08:48
Speaker
I don't know, in Britain, like some, I mean, like some like academics get really uppity about titles.
01:08:54
Speaker
I don't know.
01:08:55
Speaker
I never allow my students to call myself to be professor or that puts a barrier between you and them.
01:09:00
Speaker
You see, I hate that.
01:09:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:01
Speaker
But England's more formal.
01:09:02
Speaker
We both know that.
01:09:03
Speaker
I've been in the States now for 30 odd years.
01:09:06
Speaker
So I've become less formal.
01:09:07
Speaker
You know, I still miss, by the way, sticky toffee pudding.
01:09:11
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
01:09:12
Speaker
Yes.
01:09:12
Speaker
I've had that today with some good ice cream.
01:09:15
Speaker
Do you not have it in the States?
01:09:17
Speaker
No, no.
01:09:20
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
01:09:20
Speaker
I'll send you some, Gail.
01:09:23
Speaker
I'll send you some.
01:09:24
Speaker
I was just about to say, payment for this is sticky toffee pudding.
01:09:29
Speaker
I'll send you some.
01:09:30
Speaker
I'll mail it to you.
01:09:32
Speaker
That's so unfortunate.
01:09:34
Speaker
I'll look forward to it.
01:09:35
Speaker
Believe me, I will look forward to it.
01:09:38
Speaker
And that's our show.
01:09:39
Speaker
Please check out our Twitter at femdatstrat as well as our Patreon, patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy, as well as our website, the female dating strategy.com.
01:09:48
Speaker
Thanks for listening, Queens.
01:09:50
Speaker
And for all you porn sick, limp dick scrotes out there, die bad.
01:09:52
Speaker
See you next week.
01:09:54
Speaker
See you next week.