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Club Chat: The Problem with Part-Time
169 Plays3 months ago
Emma and Amy discuss the current problems with part-time work: the lack of jobs, the part-time culture, the loss of progression and the impact it can have on family life. We also share some solutions and ways you can get around this problem that so many of us face.
Have a problem with part-time too? Join us at www.fivehourclub.com or be part of the conversation on Instagram @fivehourclub
Sources:
Timewise: Flexible Jobs Index (2023)
The Flexibility Paradox: Why Flexible Working Leads to (Self-)Exploitation - Heejung Chung (2022)
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Transcript
Introduction to the 5-Hour Club Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, I'm Amy. And I'm Emma. And this is the 5-Hour Club Podcast, where we navigate life between the school runs.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, hello. Hello. you? How are you doing, Em? ah Yeah, i'm I'm definitely, can you tell by the state of my hair, I'm like in frazzle,
June Madness and Birthday Challenges
00:00:32
Speaker
frazzle mode. It's this time of year. We both get it. It's June.
00:00:36
Speaker
It is absolutely bonkers. How are you doing? Well, you know what? I think I'm on the other side of it. so obviously I had eldest sixth birthday last week and it was half term.
00:00:47
Speaker
And so this is the pinch point of the year for both of us because we haven't got birthdays here. But you have a double whammy because it's your... sixth and fourth birthday in the same week because you are crazy so you're officially online I feel like you're sitting on Fuzzle Rock right now like what am I doing whereas I'm sitting here like on the other side looking and being like yep I made that mistake last week yep I was where you are last week i so I'm I feel you and I just want to take a moment to let you breathe for a minute
00:01:17
Speaker
Thank you. And this is why, yeah, love doing the podcast anyway, but it's so nice to have ah have a, it it is a bit of decompression time, where I feel. and also, like you were saying, I came out of the half term. It was full on. It was a really full on half term.
00:01:32
Speaker
And actually coming out of that and into birthday week, it because it was birthday yesterday, birthday Thursday, and low key birthday picnic on Saturday, which is no longer low key.
00:01:44
Speaker
so we Can I get in an inverting comment? Low key. I also did a low key birthday. But how do you do low key birthdays? I would like to know from anybody who knows how to do a low key birthday party or like birthday thing or just have a low key birthday. Is that possible?
00:02:00
Speaker
possible No. yeah i The only solution I can see is what I can see a lot of my friends doing, which is literally booking somewhere, like booking a play, booking a trampoline, booking somewhere and just outsourcing. Because at this point, nobody's got their time
The Part-Time Job Crisis for Mothers
00:02:16
Speaker
to be flipping, party bagging and cake making and whatever else that you need to do.
00:02:21
Speaker
hey nobody got the time for that so so I think that that's the trick is the outsourcing that's what I need to be doing because I thought my genius idea was like right let's keep things low-key this year we'll do birthday picnic and in all honesty it's more effort than doing a village hall party which as we know are the highest levels of effort because I'm thinking well okay backup plan people come back to my house so I'm going around cleaning my kitchen knobs like what but there is no this is a trouble right and you think you're in June so you think you're out of the woods with the water and the rain and everything but look at half term half term was a flipping torrential rainstorm all week so we have no chance here to do anything low key you kind of have to have plan for A and B and C so I think the only option next year honestly we are outsourcing I'm going to tell you right now this time next year we are going to be outsourcing okay
00:03:12
Speaker
100% I got to put a reminder in my calendar right for you know February March reminder outsource for June and the joke of it is I didn't even do a party this year I convinced my eldest pretty I didn't convince him but I said I gave him the option you can either have a party or we can go out for the day and luckily kind of persuaded him to go out for the day Richard but ah then of course I know his actual birthday he do something you can't just you know sit around I mean he did just want to sit around in his pjs and sell a lemonade but that was still you know effort enough yeah right will we ever learn hi maybe in five years time anyone with teenagers tell us how it's done by that point right they don't even want to do a party they just want to like go off their friends so we'll look forward to that we've only got a few more years of this I hope right
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's the point. And actually, I feel like we're missing a trick. So and we need to find out off the parent of teenagers, how can we make, God, quote unquote, the juggle a little bit easier because it does feel a bit fun. A little bit.
00:04:26
Speaker
Right. Shall we move on to what we're meant to be talking about today? Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. Let's it. I'm excited about this one because I feel like we've been talking about this for so long and we've been saying we'll do a pod about it, we're going do a pod. And so it's been there in the background, we just haven't actually had the conversation and recorded it.
00:04:46
Speaker
So today we are going to talk about the problem with part-time. did it Yeah, it's bit of a long time coming and it's kind of pretty core to what we're doing, isn't it?
00:04:58
Speaker
Well, think this is basically the reason why we're doing what we're doing, right? It's kind of, we solve all these problems. They were fizzling, bubbling under the water. We both felt it from both sides. So we kind of thought, well, there needs to be a different solution, hence why we're here. So yeah, I feel like it is the reason we're doing it.
00:05:16
Speaker
And now we're just sort of bringing to the surface all those things. And I know we sort of we've called it this problem to part-time, but hopefully we can also offer maybe a glimmer of hope, some suggestions, solutions about how people can manage this thing called part-time which you know is a tricky thing to navigate. So and what we're going to do, it's going to be a bit of a different club chat. We have asked um you for some of your input around this to get, you know, what it is like to be, you know, working part-time or not and why.
00:05:44
Speaker
But we're also just going to sort of run through what we see as the key problems to part-time work. So there's sort of four key ones we've recognised through the research, through lived experience, through data, which is obviously the lack of jobs, part-time jobs,
00:05:59
Speaker
The problem with the part-time culture, the lack of progression and the impact that part-time work has on family life. And then by the end of it, hopefully we'll also talk about the positives and how it can be done successfully. Because we know there are people working part-time out there who it really works for. So...
00:06:18
Speaker
And that's what we want to work towards. So hopefully by the end of it, we'll find some sort of silver lining and solution that people can take away and maybe take into their own part-time bonanza.
00:06:32
Speaker
That's the plan. That's the plan. Whether it works or not, we shall see. We all just go off on a massive tangent talking about who knows what graphs and data and stats. But anyway, that was the plan. We'll see where it goes.
00:06:45
Speaker
All right, shall we kick things off? So I did ask our community about, you know, who's working part-time, how many people are working part-time, just to kick things off. And actually 79% of them, which is about 79 votes, said that they do work part-time.
00:07:00
Speaker
And then you had 14% said they don't, so whether they're not working or they're working full-time, and 14% said that they would like to. So, you know, the people who were contributing to this, a heavy percentage of them were working part-time, which is interesting.
00:07:16
Speaker
um So let's jump into the first problem that we see with part-time work currently, which is the lack of jobs, the lack of high-quality, decent-pay part-time work.
00:07:30
Speaker
Have you, I feel like you have some stats around this, there's gotta be, right? Yeah, and to put this into context, like when we first kind of pre-Five Our Club, we were like, how, this makes no sense. Like, where are the jobs? And and I think it it's read it's reassuring in a way, not in a good way, that actually, yeah on on the paper, there is a huge lack of part-time jobs and and the part-time jobs that we are looking for.
00:07:59
Speaker
So if you have a look and it's really important to actually kind of go into the details of the data and what actually is available, because then you'll realize to how significant the problem is, because we know that there are part time jobs available. We know, you know, when we are working as students or, you know, in the service industry, we know those part time jobs are readily available.
00:08:20
Speaker
But if we're talking about, you know, after we become parents, first of all, let's look at the gap. That's interesting that the majority of the people said that they were working part time. And if we have a look at government research and employment pathways of parents after children, the majority of mothers do not go back to full-time work. So I just want to, you know, start by saying there is a huge, huge gap. So the majority of mothers are there, leave the workforce,
Impact of Part-Time Work on Women
00:08:45
Speaker
go part-time, and a small minority go self-employed. The majority of fathers stay in full-time employment, okay?
00:08:52
Speaker
Now, the problem is with this huge gap is the lack of these part time jobs, especially at either managerial level um and and these you know professional you know white collar roles. That is the lack.
00:09:07
Speaker
So if you have a look at TimeWise, for example, they're really good and they've got really, really good research to show what's available. Now, they say that 12% of roles are advertised as part-time. Let's break this down even more.
00:09:19
Speaker
If you look in engineering, only 2% are advertised as part-time. If you look in HR finance, it's 7% and IT is 3%. As you... three percent as you go up you know by by let's say and in management um it gets even worse and I can talk about that later like when we talk about progression so actually when we look at the details and we look at what's truly available it's even worse than those kind of see those key summaries of what is available as part-time because if you're working as a parent sorry if you become a parent in all likelihood
00:09:59
Speaker
you have a good load of experience under your belt. You don't necessarily, and and this is why so many mothers do take those roles that they are overqualified for and overskilled for, and they take a massive pay cut.
00:10:15
Speaker
It's because of that huge gap. Well, this is it. I mean, those numbers, those stats are shocking. Like you say, like the majority of mothers, they need, they're looking for this part-time work, yet there's such minimal numbers available. And actually, if you look at the industries where they are available, you know, a lot of these are very heavily female-based industries too you're looking at HR places where before we work in these roles and then afterwards actually there's no part-time work available it doesn't make any sense it doesn't match up right so which it makes a lot of sense of why people leave and often what I've noticed is
00:10:50
Speaker
So you have this, like, so if you are then out of the workforce and you're looking for this part-time work, there is sort this sort of, like, low-level, low-quality part-time roles available. But then if you do go back into, say, your company before, what often happens, and I've seen it, off but you know, even some of our friends, that they go then into lower-level nurturing roles and sort of project management roles, or roles that they sort of are in their same industry, but they're just of keeping...
00:11:15
Speaker
things busy and keep you know keep looking after something that sort of discreetly as opposed to the role that they were doing before. Why is that? And you know there's no reason for that. It might mean that, ah okay, it's a little bit more easier to manage the connection to any stakeholders that they might have.
00:11:32
Speaker
but And you if you are... intentional about it and you think about yeah your meetings and being core hours that you are working, why can you not continue those relationships? Why can you not keep doing that work that you were doing before?
00:11:46
Speaker
And then, like you say, you get to a point where if you do take on a part-time role from what you were doing before, then you get you're looking for that progression and that feeling of that you want to go about forward more, but then there is a lack of part-time senior level roles available, which then essentially stops your progression, which we'll talk about later.
00:12:05
Speaker
But yeah, it's just shocking, really. It's not shocking because we all feel it and we know it's there, but to hear the stats just remind us how big a problem this is. That's exactly it. And I think the more that I dig, the more horrifying it is in a way. and And we also know that it's not just even the the the salaries. It has such an impact on mothers and fathers, but mothers in particular, because we are looking at an aspect of the motherhood penalty.
00:12:38
Speaker
And there's research from King's Global Institute for Women's Leadership on that the majority of part time roles is poor quality. So just a highlight, you know, that gap even more.
00:12:49
Speaker
so what we mean by by poor quality is that they're less likely to have that autonomy or benefits or um that job security. So and and they showed that it particularly has an impact on mothers, especially with young children.
00:13:04
Speaker
So for me, it's just there's this massive imbalance of availability that is driving what we are seeing, again, particularly with mothers and taking those roles.
00:13:17
Speaker
Well, that's it. And it's like you say, it's this highlight that this is the motherhood penalty. This is what causes a gender pay gap. It's just the lack of entry points for women to return to work.
00:13:28
Speaker
There's no part-time jobs. There's no high-quality part-time senior leadership jobs. Then they're not going be able to cook progress. They're not going to be able to maintain their careers or their salary and all of those things that we feel.
00:13:39
Speaker
so I think that leads us nicely on to progression then because like you say, even if you're able to get yourself a part-time job, once you're in there, what does progression look like?
00:13:50
Speaker
Often you're put into these nurturing roles. Somebody said that they're not being challenged enough. Other people said that they're often overlooked for progression because maybe they can't give as much as a full-time person, even if they're more experienced. But why is that? That isn't fair. If you're able to do the job in fewer hours, if you're able to give you know twice as much to that person who is full-time and less experienced...
00:14:12
Speaker
then why should you not be up for the promotion, the progression as you were before? That is such a good point. So if we think about, there is such a problem with retention and retention of women in particular, and especially in areas like tech.
00:14:29
Speaker
So 50% of women leave tech by the age of 35, which is like absolutely bonkers. but And it's funny, isn't it? Because on that, often we have employees will come to us and be like, oh, we've got this real problem with retaining women or, you know, we haven't got any women between the ages of 30 and 40. And we're like, oh, I wonder how that is Have you got any part time roles available for them?
00:14:50
Speaker
And they sort look at us like. Well, no, because we don't do part time roles in engineering or I'm like, well, maybe that's your problem. If you created some part time opportunities, yeah then maybe you'll keep those women.
00:15:01
Speaker
that's That's exactly it. Like it's such a good point. And and I kind of it does lead us a little bit into talking about the culture of part time, you know, as a whole. But there also has been research to show and un linking retention. um So, for example, Tech Talent Charter found that work-life balance was ranked the most important factor in women's decisions to leave their tech role, often linked to challenges managing caring commitments.
00:15:29
Speaker
So this is not pulling the data out of my arse. Like there is really good research on this to show women are leaving tech. Women are leaving, you know, engineering. Women are leaving education. And here are some reasons why.
00:15:44
Speaker
So it is just, and obviously when you have retention of women, you are therefore going to have progression and you're going to be able to move to those senior, to those senior roles.
00:15:58
Speaker
Now, I'm just going to give you something else that that is a problem. So and once you move to those managerial jobs, and I hope, again, what I just want to highlight is how big the problem is.
00:16:11
Speaker
Because unless we know how big the problem is, then we can't shout about it. we can't you know We can't really know how clear and and how wide this gap is. But if we have a look at, imagine the same job, right? Exactly the same job.
00:16:28
Speaker
And one is full-time and one is part-time, right? Now imagine how much you're getting paid per hour. Now, even if it's exactly the same job in the same industry, you're still going to get £5.15 less per hour just because it's part-time.
00:16:45
Speaker
So, and actually it gets even worse when you have a look and you go up the ranks because there are less jobs available at managerial level.
00:16:56
Speaker
there is also a larger pay gap available at managerial level. And let's face it, the majority of ah people who work part-time are also women. So this, we are looking at the pay gap.
00:17:07
Speaker
and And really, we're looking at the pay gap when we look at management. So if you have a look at managerial jobs, you get £7.16 less hour for managerial jobs.
00:17:18
Speaker
Now, if you have a look at admin and secretarial, it's £1.66. Caring, leisure and service is 32p less. So caring leisure and service is terhi two pila so There you go, Amy. Well, this is a problem, right? And it's and I think, like say, it leads nicely onto the problem with the part-time culture because why is it that it's seen that you it's okay to be paid less when you're doing part-time work? You're giving as much. You're not... you it Just because you're part-time, you're not part-dedicated. You're not, you know...
00:17:46
Speaker
you're putting in as much energy if not more and and quite a few of our community mentioned how actually they were often ah overworking they're overcompensating they are working far more hours than they were contracted for making their you think that makes their salary even less really dilutes it because they feel like they have to they feel like they have to make up that time because they're not being valued, because they're not being respected or feeling part of the team, because they feel like their commitment is not being recognized. So they're trying to make up for it, which creates the problem, right? Because then you feel like, well, if i I'm only, you know, meant to be working 20 hours or 19 hours, I'm actually doing 30 hours, but I'm not getting paid for that. I'm then having to juggle around the childcare and then having all of these things create, it's really frustrating, hard, hard, intense situation for a person to be working within.
00:18:41
Speaker
And then ultimately, often what happens is they have to leave because it's not sustainable. But if we start to think about the culture intentionally and intentioning really, you know, find these places, workplaces where part-time work is being recognized as being, know, as valued as others, as being a big part of the team, they're really giving as much as anybody else, then those people will stay there longer because it's sustainable, because they're getting paid for the work they're
Rebranding Part-Time Work: A Cultural Shift?
00:19:11
Speaker
doing. And there are, like, when we go into, you know, how it can be done, you know if you really recognize those people, if you pay them fairly, they will stay. They will stay in your workplace and they will work just as hard, even in the fewer hours.
00:19:25
Speaker
ah Yeah, I absolutely agree. And also there is going to be a knock on effect because there, you know, there is other research that shows that going part time can have a negative impact on the progression, you know, in your careers.
00:19:45
Speaker
But I have a theory, Amy. Go on. Okay. Are you ready? I love it. I love it in my theory. Brace yourself. So my theory is that part-time work and reduced hours. I hate the term part-time work. but We'll talk about that later.
00:20:00
Speaker
I hate it so much. I can't even tell you. I can't tell you. I hate it. um We need reduced hours. So many of us need reduced hours, but it is so normalized in our society that it is the mother that goes reduced hours.
00:20:14
Speaker
that nowadays the majority of us, the vast majority of us, both parents have to work, okay? Now, with the pandemic, because things changed so quickly overnight and because so like everyone had to rethink the way that they worked, but especially in terms of hybrid remote, well, actually our workplace culture in terms of hybrid remote did change. and And, you know, as much as we hear the headlines, we're not going to go back to the way it was before. That's just not going to happen.
00:20:45
Speaker
However, we haven't had thing like a pandemic to question part-time culture or reduce our work. Because it's so ingrained and it's so normal.
00:20:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'm going to, you know, completely change my career. Oh, yeah, I'm going to. Well, we don't question it. And because it hasn't something, you know, dramatic happen to make us question the part time culture.
00:21:08
Speaker
Therefore, it's not going to change until something significant or we keep shouting out about it does that make sense that's my theory no I mean I think it makes completely sense like you say it's completely normalized like you it's normalized that when you have a ah child as a mother you probably will go back part-time or you'll stop working or you know there's no way that you can continue a full-time work it's very normalized which means nothing changes ah you even though you we all feel this pain. We all feel like we have a lack of choice, that we have, you know, we would like to be able to work more if we could. You know, we would like to see the dynamic shifts at home because things like shared parental leave have not changed to a point where it actually is properly shared from the beginning.
00:21:49
Speaker
It means that there has not been a shift in the way that part-time work is valued and is seen in the work times. It is literally seen. Often part-time work is seen as part...
00:22:01
Speaker
dedicated part person, you know, and actually you're given your full self, even if you're not there all of the time. And so we have to find a way to get others who don't necessarily, who may never work part time because they don't have to, or, you know, a culture where i actually know few people work part time in that organization. We need to reframe it and look at it differently in a way that it's accepted that this is a normal thing to do.
00:22:29
Speaker
Like in other cultures where shared parental leave is a normal thing to do. It's a non-negotiable. From that point, both mum and dad take some time off to be with the baby. And that is just what happens. And that's what we need to do. We need to normalise the opposite of what is happening now.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, that i that is literally it I've written down the capital letters, normalise. And that is really the key. I talk a lot about the mothers. I talk a lot about the women because fundamentally, obviously, we do have the gender pay gap um but it really is about normalizing it um I just want to give you another example um that happened recently that that made me realize again a huge problem with part-time culture that we have so we had an employer who wanted to put a job on the board and um so you know we only advertise the actual salary um and not just even the the pro rata and I was asking okay what is the actual salary please because the salary wasn't advertised
00:23:25
Speaker
And they came back to me now, bearing in mind, this is for a part-time digital marketing lead with five plus years experience. And they came back to me and they wanted to advertise it for and minimum wage per hour.
00:23:40
Speaker
And the average salary for a digital marketing lead is 64K. And their justification for it was that because it was part-time and they wanted to do three months probation part-time and then see what happens after that.
00:23:56
Speaker
I mean, it's not, that's not okay. That is just not okay. Right. And I'm, I know you said no to this job being advertised on the board, but that is what we're dealing with here. Just why there was no reason. Like you say, this person should be getting pro-artile 64K really, if not a bit more.
00:24:12
Speaker
but they're suggesting they get minimum wage. Why? They want five years experience. Why? There is no reason for that other than to think they're going to take the P and take advantage of this person who has no other choice but to take up this part-time work because there's not others available.
00:24:27
Speaker
It's not okay. I know. it shit It's just outrageous. And um the truth of the matter is, that they wouldn't have suggested that if they didn't think that there were people who were desperate for a part-time remote role and and that a lot of the culture is so problematic i think again this just it's just massively highlighted absolutely in no way shape or form should you be asking someone as a lead with five plus experience for minimum wage it is just eight outrageous no it's not it's not okay and and that actually when we asked the community
00:25:05
Speaker
about one of the reasons that they didn't want to do part-time work was because of the salary, because of the pay, because of the loss of earnings, because actually they knew often they'll be putting in as much work for a lot less pay.
00:25:19
Speaker
And it is a lot less pay. And we are very conscious when we are sharing roles that and when we speak to employers we say you know please consider the experience that you're getting for this person yes they are working fewer hours in the week but actually what you're getting you're getting a good bang for your buck for those hours so please consider that experience you know we do hate it that sometimes there's you know the salaries are cut so short because we know that's not feasible in this current situation where childcare costs are so high and you're having to pay for so much in the cost of living in so it's It's trying to move towards recognizing that actually reduced hours doesn't mean that you're getting a reduced person and that actually the salary needs to recognize the experience as opposed to the hours that they're effectively working.
00:26:03
Speaker
um One of the other things with the the culture side of things is that often... parents feel that actually they don't have a sense of belonging in that organization or they feel very isolated, especially if they're remote working and they don't feel that they're valued as part of the team. And I think that's a real thing to be conscious of and something that we can offer as a solution. that We've so also spoken to employers who you know have part-time networks who can bring these people together because they know actually...
00:26:33
Speaker
it can feel you know especially if you're the only part-time person working in your team and you're maybe being left out of meetings because you can't work you know do a meeting at 6 p.m or whatever it is it's about thinking about that person as part of the team thinking about what their restrictions are and working with that so the other thing that people often feel is that guilt so if they have to go and do pickup or they have to leave early to go and get get a train so they can get back for pickup there's that especially when you're in office that's sort of just the guilt they feel walking out and that for them it's sort of it's a very obvious physical thing that you're going out of the office at 4 p.m and everybody else is staying there till 6 but if you've got all of your work done between 4 and then for the next two hours those people just going to you stand around the water cooler essentially or have a chat have a coffee or whatever then why is that any better
00:27:24
Speaker
just because they've got a bum in a seat. You know, it's about the productivity of that person. They might have worked their ass off from eight till four to get their job done so they can leave at four, go and pick up their kids and do the rest of the And they'll probably go back to emails in the evening anyway.
00:27:38
Speaker
So it's about recognizing that if you are in an office, and obviously the people listening to this probably won't be the, will be the ones judging and thinking, oh, well, they're doing less work because they're leaving two hours early. But actually, no, they've probably got a lot more work done than you have.
00:27:50
Speaker
It's so true. And this is why i i find what's happening in the workplace at the moment really interesting and looking at people questioning and, you know, and conversations like the four day work week and productivity. I do find that really interesting because why are we not questioning more the way that we work? Because the way that we work has changed.
00:28:09
Speaker
So why are we not looking at it in that sense? Because I don't know about anyone else, but like my brain shuts down at 3 p.m. I can definitely like I'll be honest. I don't work five hours a day at the moment necessarily. And I can pick things back up in the evening because there's something happens to my brain. It turns back on.
00:28:27
Speaker
But, you know, nobody is standing over you thinking type Emma type faster. Yeah. We're not clocking in, clocking out anymore. We're not in a factory seeing, you know, directly how much work you're doing. You know, we work differently now. we And people work in different ways. There's so much research and data about how different people work in different ways. And that's what we could be working around.
00:28:48
Speaker
That's how you're go to be smart. It's about being smart workers and yeah normalizing that as opposed to normalizing bum in seat. Bum in seat equals progression. Bum in seat equals... That's the way that we we work generally to output. We work to deliverables. Like, are you going to get it done? Well, if you're going to do bit of, you know, hot research, whatever, like it makes so much more sense to do it when scrap that.
00:29:13
Speaker
Okay. I've got a point. Um, dammit, this is going to be so bitty. Ah, so annoying. It's all right. Okay. Um, but these are such good points. Like we, we don't work. No.
00:29:25
Speaker
Ah, okay. Scrap this. Do we, Do we want to move on to the impact, the next bit is the impact
Part-Time Work and Family Dynamics
00:29:34
Speaker
on family life. you want to move one to that? Yes, yes, yes. Let's move on to that.
00:29:37
Speaker
Because we want to talk about the advantages and what to do. Yeah. yeah
00:29:45
Speaker
So the other... The other problem that we see is the impact that part-time work can have on family life. Now, obviously, can have a really positive impact if it's done properly for somebody. gives the opportunity for somebody to go back into work after having children. Now, for me, it's been a really great way for me to set my toe back into my career and continue with the things that need to do. However...
00:30:09
Speaker
There are some problems with that. And I know you've got some stats around this, but it's about now I'm the person who's working part time. So essentially, I am still the person who is responsible for all of the domestic load, the childcare, sorting the kids out, the pickups, all of those things, because We haven't forced a situation, we haven't had to force a situation where it's completely shared.
00:30:32
Speaker
So, you know, and I know this can be a problem. And that's what people are also saying is that part time is great, but it doesn't solve everything because... it needs to be seen from both sides and the domestic load then needs to be shared because even if you're only working part-time, you're still working and unless there's still impact on your additional load that you have.
00:30:53
Speaker
You can't just add on work and then keep doing everything else as you were before. Yeah, again, this is such a really good point and it is something that we definitely need to be aware of there is something called the flexibility paradox and that is if you...
00:31:08
Speaker
ah do have flexible hours or you are more likely to work remote, it absolutely can have an impact on increasing the likelihood, obviously, that you're going be doing childcare, but by doing even more unpaid work, let's say, um than you were doing before. There's some really interesting research that just came out from the University of Southampton.
00:31:30
Speaker
And the absolute key kind of take home message is that when fathers had access to flexible hours, it was associated with essentially helping out more with those with those tasks of childcare, which will have an impact on work. So they were more likely to stay home with the old child, dress the child and do drop off and pick up.
00:31:54
Speaker
So I think that the really key message there is that we absolutely need to normalise flexible working for fathers because mothers, when they work full time, actually they do tend to lead on two out of three of those childcare tasks that have an impact on the work.
00:32:12
Speaker
But there's something else that's in the research that I can see in a graph, but that they don't discuss that I think really actually is massive is there a huge impact.
00:32:24
Speaker
on and when both parents work part-time or when the dad is working part-time, you can just see there's a massive, massive difference in the amount that the father is either equally contributing to or you know doing himself of those tasks. and So again, I think it really comes down to normalizing it, normalizing these high quality roles and for the fathers as well is so important.
00:32:53
Speaker
Well, this is it. And if we gave gave these roles to, this is why we talk to parents as opposed to just talking directly to to mothers when we share jobs, because actually, why can fathers not also take on these high quality part-time, you five hour work days?
00:33:07
Speaker
They can, they absolutely can. If actually it looks that it gives the opportunity for the woman to return to work and do her job full-time or do her job part-time as well, and they can both have this type of working, then it can absolutely work and that will help share this domestic load. And I know from personal experience and And within my own family that I've seen when, you know, when a mother goes back, even part time, she's, or you know, but when she's gone back full time and the dad is at home, often they are just caring for the child. they're keeping the baby alive, right? They're keeping...
00:33:40
Speaker
that baby surviving, they kind of ignore all the other stuff potentially that is going on. So when the mother returns, often they're scooping up all of this domestic load, the washing, the cooking, the cleaning, or whatever else that needs to be done. Whereas women would often do all of that stuff without even thinking about it, right? And obviously I'm generalizing here, and I know there are plenty of stay-at-home dads who would be doing all of that stuff, but it's just the thought that, you know, we have to recognize it doesn't necessarily come easy to them. It's not something that's always been normalized. you know, we have to give them the opportunity to do those things too, because everybody's capable of doing these things.
00:34:17
Speaker
And by giving this high quality part time roles to both sides and the opportunity to have that dynamic shifter as a shared responsibility would really help, I think. Yeah, I totally agree. But also, can we just, again, in in this paper and the way that people talk about it, can we just scrap the word flexibility, please? Because what we need is reduced hours.
00:34:39
Speaker
What we need is reduced hours. Yeah, but this is the point, though. This is interesting. husband were talking about this this morning. Actually, flexibility is a bit of a trick, right? Yeah. Like, actually, what does flexibility so Does it mean that you then you're turned on and you're available 24-7 because you work flexibly? you know Actually, yeah. And also then there is even a problem with reduced hours because it's that same thing of reduced hours means reduced work, reduced drive, reduced ambition. No. it's not about being reduced. It's about working.
00:35:09
Speaker
And actually somebody in our audience came up with a great, you working dynamically. She called it dynamic work. We said, you know, if you reframe it and I, I like that, right. I like that because it's, it is, it's about being agile and it's,
00:35:23
Speaker
It's not about being f flexible to the point where everybody's available here there and everywhere. You have to have some boundaries to when you work right. You need to be able to have that so that you can be clear and transparent about the meetings that you can and can't do and the hours that you are and are not available.
00:35:41
Speaker
But there has to be some level of flexibility within that. But it can't be. And that's why we talk a lot about trust and transparency, don't we? It's about, I really think the the way forward is, yeah it's just trusting that that person is going to get it done. Because let's face it, the majority of people are going to be want to do a good job. um They're going to want to do a good job. They do a good job. They're going to progress all of these things. Most people want to do good. So if you can trust your employees,
00:36:05
Speaker
to get the work done, if you're very clear about what you need as an employer and also what you need as an employee, right? Flexibility then works both ways and then it should work. But the trouble is there's a lack of trust, there's a lack of transparency about what people need.
00:36:21
Speaker
flexibility is people take the p let's face it our flexibility can do on both sides and that's where employers shut down they say oh actually i can't be flexible i've only got a certain level of flexibility because we can't trust that you're going to to take you know do the job because other people are taking the mick or whatever but it's you have to recognize that to be able to trust each other it's a working and then you create a long-term working relationship if you don't trust each other it's going to break down very quickly ah So true. And a lot of we we what we are saying is kind of fundamental good company culture, isn't it? Like you you, for all of these things to work for, to have that retention, you have to have that trust to in place.
00:37:01
Speaker
You've got to have these boundaries in place. and But I absolutely love that word dynamic. And it got me thinking we need to do like a rebranding challenge for part-time workers. Yeah.
00:37:13
Speaker
um we did be How can we, yeah, help part time work this rebrand it reframe it. And I think that's the key, right? So let's move on to some of the things we can do where we've seen it being really successful, right? And I think it is about that reframing it, isn't it? It's about thinking of these.
00:37:29
Speaker
employees are not part-time they're not part dedicated they are there they are showing up fully in the time that they are going to work they will work hard for you if you give them the trust that they need to do it's also about that intentionality isn't it it's about being intentional about the things that you need you know being intentional about remote working and the boundaries that you need to put in place for when you can and can't do meetings um and being thoughtful around that company culture, like you say, with
Success Strategies for Part-Time Work
00:38:00
Speaker
their sense of belonging. How do you keep, make people feel like they belong? Well, you make sure you include them in those meetings and you make sure that they are valued and respected as part of the team and they're not being judged when they need to leave the office.
00:38:12
Speaker
I mean, what, I'm going to say something really obvious, but, you know, I have to say it. I think what is really essential is, is to have,
00:38:22
Speaker
that good quality leadership and to have those line managers, that is going to be make and break. And we can talk about, you know, if if they're not as supportive as you would like, but also what we are talking about, you know, when those line managers are supportive,
00:38:38
Speaker
What they are doing is they are showcasing they have these core inclusive leadership skills. And what they are doing is they are supporting inclusion. Again, these are all pretty fundamental things for good company culture.
00:38:50
Speaker
By, you know, helping to include you, again, they're helping to get more women back into to the workforce. But it's also going to help and support and other, you know, groups that need the support.
00:39:03
Speaker
So...
00:39:09
Speaker
What can we do? What tangible things can we do think, okay, so yeah, we do have a problem with part-time culture. What can we do to help to get those jobs?
00:39:22
Speaker
to shape those jobs what can we do collectively it's a great question and I think it is about having these conversations outside of this echo chamber right I've been hearing this a lot about how we're having these conversations but often they're within a community group of who already get it and who understand and it's now about taking these conversations beyond the people who need it and taking them to your line managers whether they get it or not it's about If you're going back to work after maternity and you're looking for part-time hours, put your business case forward. Think about the things that you need as a person to be able to be successful in this job.
00:39:57
Speaker
Put in a progression plan or ask for a progression plan and showcase the reasons why that it will not only be beneficial to you, but beneficial to the organization as well. And we talked about this in our recent Coach Masterclass, Rachel didn't mean, about nape being assertive, coming up, being confident about the skills that you're bringing to the table, the additional skills that you're bringing, and creating business case to showcase those, but also showcase how that's going to be beneficial for the company and why part-time work works.
00:40:24
Speaker
is the best solution for you right now. Because let's face it, we don't all want to work part time forever. This might be just a short season chapter of our careers that we need to work part time. It might be five years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever it is, but you need that time. But then in the longer term, it means that you'll stay there and you'll be loyal to the company and you'll continue to work hard for them. So it's about showcasing them the short and the longer term plan of why this would work on both sides. And I think that's really key.
00:40:53
Speaker
There are so many advantages of part time. And by being really obvious with your team, with your manager as to to what these advantages are, not just for you, but but for whoever you're working for,
00:41:09
Speaker
a I also think you're you're right in terms of having that clear mapping out of progression opportunities. I'd also say like if you did want to go for a more senior role or another, you know, a role, if job sharing is such a brilliant way to do this. And oh my goodness, there are so many advantages of this and having two heads, you know, for the price of one full-time role.
00:41:34
Speaker
Now, I agree. I think job shares is such a great way to show to your employer that actually what you're getting, the benefits that they get, they get two for the price of one, If it's some companies, they say, well, go and find yourself a job share and we can make it work.
00:41:49
Speaker
But there are so many really good examples. And we're hoping to bring those to the table to share with you soon, because there are some really good examples of how it can be done. And that essentially is creating two part-time roles for those two people, but creating a full-time role.
00:42:01
Speaker
So you're filling a full-time role with these two part-time people. What could be better than that? you know especially if those two people have got slightly different skill sets and slightly different experiences they're going to be getting even more than you would do with one full-time person so I think job shares is a really great way of how to work part-time intentionally but also that really benefits the company and I know that there are lots of people out there like the job share revolution are really trying to advocate for this and really trying to highlight the benefits of this so go and check them out too um
00:42:32
Speaker
The other thing that you can do is just think about how you can reframe it, right? And how you can rephrase it. So somebody suggested that they call their day that they don't work as their non-working day as opposed to their day off.
00:42:45
Speaker
Because if you call it non-working day, if you call it a day off, it suggests that you know you're leisurely doing whatever here, there, willy-nilly, having an extra weekend day, which is often not the case. it's Often your non-working day is when you're looking after your toddler or you're getting things at life I've been done in the house and you know juggling that domestic load. So it's not that you're not working, you're just doing other types of work during that time.
00:43:07
Speaker
And people have to recognize it. And I think it's about setting in those boundaries with your team and saying, well, this is my non-working day. And that's where we've seen that it can be really successful is that when others in the team recognize that and they don't try and contact you on those days and they do let you get on with it because that's where people overwork is when you feel like you're available. Just because you're not working that day doesn't mean you're having a really needed time.
00:43:30
Speaker
You're doing other work. I think that is such a valid point and I totally agree like I remember like in work and I'd be like okay i'm I'm off tomorrow but using the word off felt so wrong because I'm not I am minding my child tomorrow and navigating housework but also it kind of made me think and and the reality is that the last weekend or so i have been working constantly until quite late in the evenings because it's not paid work. I've been doing housework. I've been doing sorting. I've been doing prep for the birthday parties. And I think actually recognizing and reframing that for me to understand it has actually pretty much just been constant work.
00:44:16
Speaker
work and you know minding the kids work and minding the kids there has been no time off for me um i think that's really important to recognize as well because if we don't recognize that then we can't have that conversation with our partner and making sure that we are we you know when we're really in the thick of it We'll just go go, go, go, go and forget, hang on, I'm constantly working.
00:44:40
Speaker
Well, this is it. And it's recognizing that just because you work part time doesn't mean that you're you're not working the rest of the time. And so normalizing rest too, right? Rest is really important.
00:44:51
Speaker
And if the reason that you need to work part time is to give yourself a bit of a break on a Friday, that's okay. And I think that's where we can see it's really important. can be done really successfully. So we had one of our community share with me, and she said that she has she's done two part-time roles since having her child.
00:45:08
Speaker
The first one was really successful. She was paid really well. She worked part-time hours. So did other members of the team. They're also parents. And she got her output done. There was so no questioning around what she was doing. She'd just got on with it. She completed the project, and unfortunately, it had to end.
00:45:24
Speaker
And she said that it was the culture. She just felt really supported to do her job. And even if she was working fewer hours, it worked really well for her. Then she went to a different culture, a different company, and the part-time business.
00:45:39
Speaker
hours didn't work, the parts the role didn't work because the expectations that it had on her were that she was doing all this sort of dog work. She had to do extra hours to make up what was expected of her. The job description was way too much for the hours that they were expecting and she was getting paid very little.
00:45:56
Speaker
And so she quit after three months. And I think that's a really good example of actually... You can be doing part-time work and be done really successful. And i do think it is about the company culture and it is about normalizing really supportive, family-friendly company culture where they get it. They get that you need that time for whatever it is, whether it's rest, looking after your children, childcare, housework.
00:46:19
Speaker
There is a reason you need to work part-time and supporting that reason and valuing the work that you do when you are at work. There really is something to be said for finding that company, for finding that manager who is supportive of you.
00:46:31
Speaker
Because we ultimately do absolutely need to advocate for ourselves, but it's so much easier to advocate for yourself when you're in that supportive environment. It made me think like when I was going back to work as a teacher and I got a promotion when I was on maternity leave and coming back and I was in it a managerial role.
00:46:52
Speaker
And even though I was part time, was three days a week, I was given that managerial role kind of as on as a full time package, if that makes any sense. When I know another one of my very good friends, she was offered that promotion. She works part time, but they offered it that promotion as like head of her department.
00:47:12
Speaker
as a part-time position but she'd be doing it full-time and getting paid part-time and I said go back there now march into that office you can't you can't be having that because you are going to be working that full-time hours and unfortunately sometimes employers are going to take the piss quite frankly so I think you absolutely number one um That's it. And recognize the value that you are bringing, even if you were working with new stars, part-time hours.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah. All right. I feel like we need to end it there because although we call this the problem with part-time... And I hope it hasn't been too, you know, negative and depressing for people to listen to. This is a reality. And the reason we wanted to have this conversation was to highlight the reality of what so many of us face.
00:48:04
Speaker
And to also recognize that actually there is a solution. Like somebody said, yes, it's really hard. It can be a lot of work. But actually, when it's done right, it's so wonderful. It's so flexible. It gives me what I need to be with my family.
00:48:18
Speaker
So that's what we're working towards. And the more that we can highlight the problems, hopefully we can also create the solution. So hopefully we gave you a few solutions in there to go back to some of your employees with some of the things to look out for. You know, look when you're looking for roles, look at the job description. Is it realistic for the hours that they're asking you to work? And if it's not, that's what you take to them when you go to interview.
00:48:42
Speaker
Ask them, you know, I can do all of these things, but I'm not going to be able to do this admin work. You're going to need to get someone in paid less to do that work or whatever it is. Go, if you can do it from the start and really a precedent of why what you're doing should be valued and the work that you're doing is important and you shouldn't have to overcompensate and feel guilty, then hopefully we can work towards a better way of working that is part-time or whatever else we're going to call it.
00:49:07
Speaker
We need to come up with something. Any ideas welcome. I'm not even joking. We need to have a run and try and how can we change it but we'll let people know what we're still talking about? Because, I mean, ultimately, we don't necessarily even... Well, this is it. And this is what I... We often go to... We'll look for these part-time roles and we'll say, are we looking for a part-time? but We don't really mean a part-time. We're looking for five-hour work days, right?
00:49:31
Speaker
But we have to say part-time so people understand what we're talking about because... Another way isn't recognized, but like there's so many flaws in part time. It makes it really hard for us to feel like we can have that conversation. Whereas what we want to say is actually this person deserves to get paid more than the part time pro rata salary you're offering.
00:49:53
Speaker
But at this point, we can't say that because we haven't got another way to translate it to people who don't get it yeah so any thoughts welcome ah to our rebranding of part-time globally thank you leave it there that was a meaty one thank you so much for listening listening everybody maybe next time i'll do a solution to part-time if we uh if we ever find one yeah thank you much bye bye