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I'm Stacey, I was made redundant and now I help working families
144 Plays3 months ago
This is the story of Stacey, who after a thriving career working in fashion, was made redundant 5 weeks after telling her employer she was pregnant with her third son. She now works as PR and Digital at Working Families, where she is part of a team who supports other families who need help like she did.
This is a story of red flags, redundancy and resilience.
If you need help or advice around your rights as a working parent or carer you can contact Working Families Advice Line here.
Or contact their Helpline: 0300 012 0312 Weekdays 11am - 2pm (See exceptions)
Follow Working Families on Instagram @workingfamuk to find out more about the work they do.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, I'm Amy and I'm Emma and this is the 5-Hour Club Podcast where we navigate life between the school runs.
Career Shift and Early Aspirations
00:00:20
Speaker
Here's the story of Stacey. Mum are three boys who started her career in the fashion industry and enjoyed the busy agency and city life before having her family. After her first son, she made the decision to leave London to be closer to her family, which is when her career path began to change.
00:00:35
Speaker
She was then shockingly made redundant five weeks into her third pregnancy at a local agency and that's when she lost confidence in her career. It wasn't until she found a purpose-driven, truly flexible role at Working Families where she works as PR and digital officer to support other families facing struggles in the workplace.
00:00:52
Speaker
And that's when she found her confidence again. This is a story of red flags, redundancy and resilience and we hope you love it as much as we do.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hi, we're joined by Stacey today, which is very exciting. Now, Stacey, you have had three children in six years, which is a bit of a mean feat. But before you had them, you dreamt about working as a journalist in fashion. So can you tell us about your early career and what your life looked like before you had your children?
00:01:27
Speaker
I don't know how I had so much free time, to be honest. I always think, like when I was thinking back to that time, I was like, what did I do with my time? And But no, I mean, I did fashion journalism at uni. I studied that. And it i remember it was the day after our summer ball, me and my best mate, we got in her car and we moved to London the day after.
00:01:48
Speaker
and um i I'd always had aspirations. I was like, i was going go down there, work at a couple of magazines and end up at Vogue. And that was that was what I thought was genuinely going to happen. I've always been quite independent as a person and I've been very career focused. So I was literally like, I can make this happen.
Challenges and Career Pivot
00:02:05
Speaker
And I got down there and after like stints of doing these two week rotations at different magazines where essentially I was sat on the floor of a sample room, detangling necklaces, or I was running out and getting lunch and and stuff like that. I realized pretty quickly that, you know, that wasn't going to happen.
00:02:21
Speaker
um And internships at that time, you know, we're talking like, gosh, nearly 15 years ago, you know, you weren't paid, you were paid expenses. It was just a revolving door, you know, things have changed positively now, but I kind of realized, you know,
00:02:35
Speaker
I had very big aspirations, like said, I was very independent, and I thought, right, okay, so where do I need to move into, so I moved into kind of the the retail world, so less magazine publishing, more into kind of retail environments, and after much kind of hard work and plugging away, I landed what I consider like my first proper role at ASOS, and that was just an incredible place to work, again, it was like, there was no budget, it was like,
00:03:02
Speaker
go away, do what you can, like think of this, invent that. Like it was very free and that was amazing. And whilst I really loved it and I was there for quite a long time and in the world of ASOS, I was there for a while. And then I kind of found my niche within the world of kind of social and digital, which was just starting to come to fruition for
Agency Success and Lifestyle Change
00:03:22
Speaker
brands. And I moved on in those roles into kind of brands like H&M and Matalan.
00:03:27
Speaker
And it was after a while, um in-house I made the jump to go agency side. So for anybody who's done that jump, they always go, you know, agency is mental, agency is crazy. you know, you get a pitch at 5pm, but you're staying and working it through and getting it done. and And I absolutely loved it. And I really felt like I thrived in that role. And I headed up a team.
00:03:48
Speaker
Average age of the agency was kind of like early 20s. And I was probably, well, I just got married. me and my husband had just bought our first little flat. So I feel like the financial side of it I was like yeah im I'm doing okay I'm getting there and I was really happy I knew what my progression would be in the agency and I was really really happy and I think the thing that I was finding is that I'm originally from up north all of my friends up north so my sister for example who's a couple of years older than me you know have my beautiful niece and she was pregnant with my nephew and a lot of my friends up north were having children whereas all of my friends down in London weren't and it was kind of that that
00:04:25
Speaker
almost like that north-south divide in my own self of going well all of my friends back home having kids but none of my friends down here are and you know our free time me and my husband you know in our 20s you know it was dinners it was Friday night drinks it was you know like i said at the agency if a ah pitch came in it was you know working through to get it done I'd really supportive senior team above me and I just I constantly felt that juggle in my head of like when's the right time and then we got married and I thought, no, I'm going to have, going to have a
Family Priorities and Relocation Decision
00:04:58
Speaker
baby. And we were really lucky with all three of my children. I've been very fortunate with my pregnancies and, you know, my labor and beyond has been very positive.
00:05:06
Speaker
And I remember telling my bosses that I was pregnant and they were just like, wow, first agency baby. We're so excited. and I distinctly remember putting on my out of office and putting, I'll be back in January, 2020.
00:05:20
Speaker
um my son was born in 2019. And I remember thinking like, oh, I'll be back. Like I'll crack on with that. And a lot of my friends and my sister's a teacher, we have a lot of friends that work in the NHS, work in the police service and stuff. And with those vocations, they, you know, you've trained so long for it. you You go back. You know I mean? I think my situation was a bit different because I hadn't trained and trained for years. And it's almost like there was this switch in my mind in terms of how I felt becoming a mum. It was very different. My focus on my career completely shifted, which I wasn't expecting.
00:05:53
Speaker
um But yeah, I think I just, I loved that time, but I found I was incredibly lonely. um i was far away from family and I just felt a bit lost.
00:06:05
Speaker
So i remember being on maternity leave and we were so lucky we were in London, you know, there was so much there and I'd do that first morning feed, first morning nap, put the baby in the pram and I would be out all day walking.
00:06:17
Speaker
And I remember like, often or not, I'd meet my husband at the station when he was coming home from work, you know, he He had his standard two weeks and then I was alone. and you know, my my friends, bless him, who I'm still very close with now, you know, they'd message me be like, oh, we're going out for Friday night drinks. Are you coming? And I'd be like, got three month old, but I'm breastfeeding. So not right now, guys. And, you know, it was just that complete divide that i I wasn't anticipating. And that really threw me. And I was incredibly lonely, even though I had a very supportive partner.
00:06:46
Speaker
and i tried the baby groups. i'd I'd done all of that, but I just couldn't find... my people and I, you know, and I, the full intention was to go back to work and was to, you know, we picked out a nursery for him to start and everything. so I was in that mindset, but it just, the, the disconnect was huge and I just didn't see it coming at all when becoming a parent. So that's what I always say to, to people that see becoming now becoming parents, you know, just take time, you know, really realize that this is a big change. People think physical, but it's also the mental and ultimately your career that takes a huge change.
00:07:21
Speaker
Um, But yeah, I think it kind of, it was a couple of months in maternity leave and I knew I was really, I wasn't struggling in the sense of postpartum or anything like that. It was just loneliness.
00:07:31
Speaker
I was kind of just walking around London on my own and with a baby thinking, oh, like I wish I could see my sister and stuff like that. And i remember we'd gone up to visit family and took the baby up and stuff. And i we were driving home and Stu was up front driving and I had Sam next to me in the car seat and I cried I was crying on the way home and she looked in the mirror i was like why are you crying like you never cry driving back home to London and I was like I don't want to be there anymore and I kind of made the decision in my head that my time in London was done um but it was it was more from a I was thinking purely and looking back now i was thinking purely from the emotional connection side of it and I hadn't really thought about the impact of my career by making that move and what that would mean and I think
00:08:16
Speaker
that was almost like the first step. Having obviously a child, but then making that move was the first step in kind of this huge change in terms of what had been pre-child Stacey, so career focused.
00:08:31
Speaker
I wanted to be a director. I wanted to get the money. i wanted, you know, Friday night drinks and that completely switched. And I just wasn't prepared for that at all because nobody tells you.
00:08:42
Speaker
that's it where's Where's the guidebook that tells you that all of a sudden you're just going to feel like this different person? Like you just can't predict it. You can't plan for it. There's nothing you can do apart from reflecting it afterwards and think, oh yeah, okay, I have changed and it is a big deal. And you know, all of these things. So it sounds like you, you knew what you wanted.
00:09:05
Speaker
Did you then make that move back to your family? Yeah. Yeah, so I think it was in the September. So my son was born in the January, it got to the September band and I was like, oh, I'm really not, you know, i'm not enjoying this. I'm really struggling.
00:09:21
Speaker
And then by the ah by the the December, we moved home December 16. And because, you know, we had a young baby until we moved in very fortunately with my in-laws. and And that was in the December. And it was around the January, February, where we started to get inklings of the pandemic we start you know the news started trickling in and then all of a sudden we were in lockdown and whilst covid was an incredibly tough time for obviously a lot of people it was almost my happiest time because I was back with family we were you know I was with my in-laws so it was it was a difficult not being close to my mum because of the you know the social distancing and the bubbles but I was back home and I was with family and because I was still technically on mat leave
00:10:07
Speaker
um every time, every maternity leave i've had, I've saved up before, because I know statutory, you know, we all know it's not enough, so, you know, I'd saved up a good amount of money, I'd prepared, and I was still in that bubble of, like, well, now I'm home, and I'm still on mat leave, and it was great, and then I kind of started thinking, oh okay, so what am I going to do now, and I wouldn't say the switch fully turned back on, but it kind of it went to like 50% like, okay, Stacey, you know, you can't be like this
Freelancing and Flexibility during the Pandemic
00:10:37
Speaker
forever. you know, you need to start thinking of a job.
00:10:40
Speaker
and And I ended up going freelance for a period. And it was great because when and pre-COVID, when I was kind of, I'd considered freelance, everyone was like, oh no, you're not in London anymore. You know, it's COVID hit and the world opened. Everybody that I'd spoken to before that had said, no, no, like, I'm sorry, we're looking for someone London-based was like,
00:11:02
Speaker
Actually, it doesn't matter where you are. you've got a computer, you've got Teams, great. And it it opened up the world. And I was so lucky that I had a huge amount of clients. Like I said, it was a really hard period, but it was probably some of my best times with being closer to family and also being able to secure the work.
00:11:20
Speaker
So I did some amazing partnerships with Dove, with Vice Media, and long-term partnerships, which just took the pressure off because I was like, well, I'm earning.
00:11:31
Speaker
I've got the flex of being at home and it was kind of you know it was it was it was working um whereas you know on the other side of it my husband for example was really struggling because he'd lost his routine you know we'd relocated he'd lost his his you know he'd moved roles but he'd moved into a new role straight away at home so it was you know it's a balance of a lot of things like it is as a parent um But for me, you know, I thought, well, this is this is working for me. And it was great. And it was around my son was getting up to around 18 months, we'd moved into our our house, we'd managed to buy within the pandemic, we've managed to find someone by and move out.
00:12:09
Speaker
And then I found out we were expecting our second. So again, that kind of is like, Oh, right, okay, what are we going to do now get back to, you know, saving the money for maternity leave and But again, i was kind of like, well, I'll figure it out. Like it's worked so far. And I think there's those factors like the pandemic and the freelance being so good and being closer to family, again, i was blinkered in terms of thinking of the wider career impacts and this delayed, almost like this this, well, the penalty that I was going to be encountering that hadn't yet encountered properly.
00:12:44
Speaker
and So yeah, we made the move back north now. it so I mean, it sounds like it was the right choice for you, just both in terms of, you know, your loneliness, but also your career and, you know, making and being flexible with your family. It sounds like it just was the right time. And yeah, luckily, in some ways, and i and you're not the only mum who had said that, you know, the pandemic opened the doors again for us. It opened the world again so that we could actually work from home and do that.
00:13:15
Speaker
So I think it's really great that you took the opportunity to do that. um So then you had your your second or you're having your second and and what happened then? So did you carry on being freelance?
00:13:29
Speaker
So i continued freelance. I had my, um so all during my pregnancy. So with it with being freelance during pregnancy I worked right up until I think I was about I went two days over with my ah two weeks over with my second and I worked basically with wheeling me into hospital and I was like firing off my client pictures and stuff so I worked right up until my second was born and and again how you know the maternity leave you know I was really fortunate to take a year with with all my children it was something I was very strong on and I thought you know what it's if I
00:14:03
Speaker
save up if I starve before then it means that I can have that time with my child um and so after my second child was born and I did the maternity leave I still picked up some freelance whilst I was doing that just to keep because I thought I need to keep that ticking over but then it was almost like there was this overnight switch in me it was kind of
Redundancy and Career Reflection
00:14:24
Speaker
like right you've got two children hadn't planned we were like right we' we're done now we're content we've got our two children and you know, fortunate to have, you know, two lovely, healthy, happy boys.
00:14:35
Speaker
And I was like, right, I need to get back to me. And it's like something switched in me very quickly in terms of, I want something for me. I want my career back. And it wasn't that I didn't want to be a mum. I didn't want to be a parent, but it's just a switch in me. And a lot of it was financial, you know, it was like, ah I want my own money again after very close period of two maternity leaves where you are, you know, you know you're not, you're not very, you know, financially,
00:15:01
Speaker
buoyant in that sense but you know I just thought I want to earn again i want to get back on the ladder and a lot of it was I was looking at friends you know I was looking at friends that I'd been at the agency with who you know at the time were within my team early 20s were going on and I was following their career because we were friends and going gosh they're like a head off now and wow that's that's amazing like well done like gosh they're doing really well or like other friends that hadn't chosen to have children that were you know moving up in business really incredibly well. And I was so proud, but there's always that switch in the back of your head. That's like, Oh God, what you doing? And I'm like, and I worried because I looked at my CV and it did look really gappy.
00:15:42
Speaker
You know, I'd had two maternity leaves about a freelance and I thought, Oh gosh, you know, this doesn't look good. I, you know, and I thought, right, I need to go back five days a week. And like I said, ah you know, my sister, a teacher is a great example where, you know, she had her two children. She did a maternity leave. She went back full time because that was just,
00:16:00
Speaker
how it worked for her in teaching and I thought I can do this I can do that juggle like this is what people this is what parents do this is what people do so I thought right okay and I went back in-house to a fashion brand up in Manchester um and that wasn't even an option when I left university there weren't any fashion brands in in Manchester around where I am it was all in London that's why I moved but again times had changed in this whole world of fashion industry had opened up in Manchester so I secured a role ah brand and um it was a really senior role but I was like I can do this like and very quickly I realised that ah combination of myself now as ah as a working parent and the culture of that business was not right for me and and I think there were red flags I should have picked up on but you choose to ignore them don't you but I remember in the interview and like my final stage interview when you've completed all the tasks and all of those things the interview person saying to me
00:17:00
Speaker
Oh, so you've got two young kids. and how How will that impact you working here? And on reflection, i wish I wish more than anything, probably one of my biggest wishes in my career, actually, is that I could go back to that interview and go, are you asking there the dads applying for that role?
00:17:18
Speaker
I wish that's honestly one of my big wishes my career, that I could have known what I know now and asked that question, but i didn't. And in the interview, I went, and I remember physically with my hands, because I'm a very, i always talk with my hands, physically taking my hands and going, well, I've got my children here.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I moved my hands across the table. And I went, but my children, you know, they're over here. They're over here and moving them across the table with my hands and going, and I'm here. And I'm, you know, I'm ready to work. And I was so desperate for the role. I was like, I'm ready to work. And I want to work. And, you know, I want something for myself.
00:17:51
Speaker
And on reflection, again, hindsight's wonderful thing. But I was like, what are you saying? Like, I know now that it's very different for different people, but I personally cannot work. You know, it's that classic saying, like, work like you don't have kids and parent like you don't work. But I can't do that.
00:18:10
Speaker
Like, it's so ingrained in me. And I got the got the role and, you know, it was great. And it just very quickly, I realised, gosh, this culture does not support my caring responsibilities. I was you know, I was the first one at nursery drop-off, literally rugby balling my kids into the nursery, to racing in the car to work, to sitting at my desk all day, manically getting things done, to, you know, apologising profusely for leaving half an hour early to get to the nursery for my kids to be the last one to pick up, and then, you know, coming home, and that the bed, the, you know, tea, bath, bed routine, and then logging back on, and, you know, voice notes at 11pm at night, and
00:18:55
Speaker
you know, just feeling like, God, I'm drowning here, but people do this. Like, this is what they say. You're in the trenches. You just have to survive this stage and it's fine. And everybody else is doing this. So why I'm fine too.
00:19:07
Speaker
And I was just like, you know, it was, it was really challenging, but I just thought, well, this is what working parents do. And I kind of stuck at it and tried my best, but it's funny because I had a recent conversation with In my current role, I work for a charity and I was sat down with our vice patron and our patrons, our patron, Denise and Wilson, and our vice patron, Una O'Reilly. And we had a conversation with them around and International Women's Day.
00:19:36
Speaker
And both of them, one of the biggest things they spoke about was women supporting women in business and women uplifting women. And fashion industries, you know, as they are, there was a lot of women within the business, a lot of mothers within the business.
00:19:53
Speaker
But there was zero women-to-women support at all. There was no uplifting. There was no, ah what, you your kid's sick today? That's fine. Don't worry. Don't worry. It was, well, you know we've got that shoot in two days.
00:20:07
Speaker
What are you going to do And, you know, it was it was it was really challenging and it was so difficult. And I think ah think on reflection, was it the right move for me?
00:20:18
Speaker
Probably not. But I think I was... fighting so much against what I thought society needed me to do Society needed me to work. Society needed me to push a high salary to match my husband's salary.
00:20:30
Speaker
You know, throughout our relationship, he has been, i hate the term, but he's always been the higher owner. He's always been the breadwinner. And in my mind, i was like, well, I need to get there. I need to match that. You know, I need to i need to do that.
00:20:42
Speaker
Even though we know with the the gender pay gap, I'm already fighting a losing battle against that. but that's what I thought I needed to do. So that's what I was trying to do. And unexpectedly, you know, these things happen. I found out I was expecting my third baby.
00:20:59
Speaker
And, you know, um i remember i waited the 12 weeks, you know, as you do. and i remember going into my boss and saying, so my my manager was a woman and I told her and she was very like, oh, congratulations. And oh, okay. It was kind of like student. I was like, okay, fine, great.
00:21:19
Speaker
and And after going from the agency where they were so supportive, i was like, well, it'll be the same. and This is a very difficult environment, but it'll be the same. And i remember going into the the office and going, oh, you know, and I'm pregnant.
00:21:31
Speaker
And it was silence. There was no response. There was no and congratulations. There was no, okay. It was just, yeah, I've heard. And I was like,
00:21:42
Speaker
Okay, I remember walking out of that meeting and literally in my head, I was like, shit, I'm in trouble here. I'm big trouble. And, you know, you're you're vulnerable. Yes, this was my third baby, but it was still a pregnancy. It was still, you know, you're still very anxious at that time and nervous.
00:21:58
Speaker
And things deteriorated pretty quickly from that, and from that moment. And, you know, have to caveat, at the time, fashion industry...
00:22:09
Speaker
Well, fashion industry and business was very volatile. Spending was down. You know, friends and old colleagues that I'd had other in you know in other and businesses were seeing cuts, left, right and center redundancies and whatnot. So, you know, it wasn't a great time for fashion brands at you know at then.
00:22:26
Speaker
and But it was five five weeks after telling them I was pregnant, I was taken into a room and said, you're being made redundant. And I think that was just like, what?
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah. And immediately it just came out of my mouth and went, it's because I'm pregnant. And it was like, it was like this like axe came down in the room. it was like, no, it's not. No, no, here's your letter.
00:22:49
Speaker
And I went back to my desk. I packed up my stuff and I left and I never went back. and Because I think I was pregnant and I'd said that it was kind of like, OK, we need to be really careful here. So I managed to agree a settlement that i was happy with.
00:23:06
Speaker
But I was basically told you can go now. And that was it. And then, you know, i went through all the process of, okay, was this fair? Was it, was it right? And I remember i was, you know, I was in floods of tears because I was trying so hard to meet the societal views of what a working parent should be, what I thought they should be.
00:23:26
Speaker
and my dad got in the car and rang my husband thinking, oh God, how are we going to pay for maternity leave? Like, how am I going to pay for childcare? Like, how are we going to pay the bills? And I remember he was just oh, thank God.
00:23:37
Speaker
And I was like, what? I was like sobbing. was like, what? And he's like, that's the best news, Stacey. He was like, that is, he said, you've been killing yourself. He said, you're a completely different person when you're there. You're, I mean, he didn't mean this in a bad way at all, but he was like, you're not the parent you want to be whilst you're working there. He said, because you're so up and down and stressed. And every time your phone goes, you're panicked. And so he's like, this is the best thing. This is the best thing for you.
00:24:05
Speaker
And it was, um So i went off and had my third boy, my third and last boy, no more babies. and And it was probably only six months into my maternity leave because, you know, you're pregnant and then you have a newborn and I'm, you know, you're juggling other children and home life. And it was only six months into that final maternity leave that it hit me like a ton of bricks, the realisation of redundancy and what that meant. And I hate the term redundant. I think it's an awful word.
00:24:36
Speaker
And I think even if I hadn't have been pregnant, I would have really struggled with it because it's almost that loss of, okay, well, I tried the freelance stuff. I tried to do the flex. I tried to be a more present parent.
00:24:48
Speaker
And then I've tried the full time, you know, nailed to the desk, like being a boss, like working and neither of it's worked for me. And being made redundant, it's almost saying you're not needed.
00:25:00
Speaker
You're not wanted. And I remember having those conversations with my husband and, going what have I got to give, like what, who am I now, like what, um what have I got, what skills have I got, like what, and he had to, you know, like physically pick me up, and just be like, you know, you've got this, you've got that, and it was, it was really challenging and hard, when that should have been a really happy period, you know, I knew it was my last maternity leave, I knew it was my last opportunity with my children, in that sense of being off, and I spent probably from six months onwards just
00:25:32
Speaker
applying for everything and everything and it was during that time that I saw your LinkedIn post Amy and I was I read it and i was like god I could have written that myself and it honestly it brought me it brought me such comfort because I thought god I'm not you you know no matter your situation you feel like you're the only person facing that and I saw that and I thought god this this woman is is me she I could have written that myself that's exactly how I feel I thought, i you know, I just thought, where is my place now?
00:26:01
Speaker
And sorry, I'm getting emotional now. No, so am I. Sorry. But, you know, I just, I can ah completely didn't didn't know where I was. And it was it was really hard.
00:26:14
Speaker
And, um you know, i have a very supportive husband and a very supportive family who were kind of like, Stacey, you know, you can you can you can do this, you can you can crack on, you've always been like this and it was finding that balance in my own head of of you know, where I wanted to be in work but where I wanted to be impair be as a parent and I think that is so hard to find that, where where you personally, that you know, like i said, there's there's some parents that go out and they do nine to five, five days a week and I think,
00:26:49
Speaker
God, you're incredible. And then there's other parents, you know, these are even within my friendship groups now, who are stay at home mum because their partner might work away. You know, I've got friends that have partners that work, you know, other end of the country, five days a week, multiple weeks at time.
00:27:03
Speaker
So they don't have a choice. And I think, God, how do you do that? you're You're there all the time with no support, you know. So, you know, it's everyone has their own way of doing it.
00:27:15
Speaker
But just at the time, I just couldn't see a way forward in terms of finding what is that balance to me. So it's incredibly hard. No, I mean, thank you so much for sharing all parts of your story because there were so many things. I just kept writing down red flags, red flags, red flags. because You said you knew going into that, just that one question in the interview.
00:27:39
Speaker
Hang on a minute, that's a red flag here. But i I need this, I want this because that's what sata society is telling me I should have. I should have the full-time. I should be that full-time working mum who's juggling everything so I can...
00:27:52
Speaker
you know, feel and, you know, do everything, do have it all. And i I remember, I know that feeling that you felt of that wanting, that sort of the purpose of things that almost not being told that you can't do something.
00:28:05
Speaker
And I guess for you, then that being made redundant in that point, you know, you felt like you weren't able to do that, but that is a load of rubbish. The problem was them. The problem was the organization was not able to support you and your family in a way that you needed to be able to thrive.
00:28:19
Speaker
And I mean, your husband sounds incredible. The fact that he knew that wasn't right for you and his response was, thank God, they just showed that it wasn't you because, you know, you were able to make it right. You did freelance and you did save up in your other maternity leaves and you did you know do what you needed to keep your career going and keep yourself afloat and do what you needed for your family at that time.
00:28:41
Speaker
So then when you're in the wrong environment, And with all of those red flags that were there, you weren't able to do that. And that was not your fault. That was society's fault. That was the organization, the company's fault for not recognizing what you needed. And it wasn't on you. But I know soon as you feel that way, you feel like it is your fault. You feel like...
00:29:03
Speaker
It was me. it was It's something I did. It's, you know, oh I shouldn't got pregnant again I shouldn't have done this or I should have worked harder. So they wanted to keep me on. All of these things go through your head and and it's not about you. It's about the system that just doesn't work for us. and And until you find that place which does recognize you and does give you that sense of belonging, you don't realize that almost. And it's, yeah, it was heartbreaking to hear that at that moment, that's when you heard and read my story, because I had that same feeling is that, you know, I shared that and didn't know expect the response.
00:29:38
Speaker
And so many parents would then message me, almost telling my story back to me too. It was like, it was like the sharing stories and we just kept, you know, it was reciprocal thing. And it was, I was reading my story again and again and again. And just, you know, just slightly different nuances. And it's just that feeling of lack of belonging and lack of feeling like you had a place anywhere and and what, you know, you were meant to do then. yeah.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's just so heartbreaking to hear that you know you can hear how much and how dedicated you are to your work and and you should be able to do that too. You should be able to have both. It shouldn't be one way or the other.
00:30:14
Speaker
It's just figuring out what works for you. So thank you for sharing that. Just, yeah, it just made me feel so angry though. I can see Emma's face going. Are you coming in with the angry Emma? You can probably see all of the emotions and I'm writing day notes and I'm highlighting, highlighting everything.
00:30:33
Speaker
But also at the same time, I'm listening and taking in everything. Because it is an incredible story. such an It's such an important story. And I think it just kind of emphasizes what so many of us go through.
00:30:45
Speaker
And i think, you know, really what it's emphasizing, it's like society is gaslighting us into thinking this is what we can do and should do.
00:30:57
Speaker
And then you try it and you realize, well, actually... this you can't do that especially if you're working for an organization where you have all of those red flags where they are making it unbearable for you to do that and i'd like to talk you mentioned something earlier which i thought was interesting when you said your sister is a teacher she works full-time so i've got three sisters and i look at them and i think you know oh how did they do it and i just think What we are also missing um is role models and role models for working the certain way and role models who can work. And I don't like the word part-time. I'm gonna say reduced hours or fractional work or five hour work day because we do not give part-times of ourselves.
00:31:42
Speaker
you know we You are so qualified and experienced and have so many skills. You're not a part-time employee, but to have those role models to say, actually, there is a way. But the problem is with our current society and setup, there are so few roles, it's hard to role model that that da this is the norm and should be the norm.
00:32:01
Speaker
But it's just so incredibly frustrating to hear you in that situation and then and then being made redundant. And again, it completely makes sense that so many women don't do anything or can't do anything about it because you're pregnant and you're vulnerable and you just have to...
00:32:19
Speaker
figure it out but by yourself. And that is the norm. And I think your story is so powerful, but was what is also so terrifying is that it's like Amy said, that there are so many people in the same position and so many people have the same story.
00:32:41
Speaker
I'd like to ask, right. And ah that would have been such such a great question to ask. Like, would you ask the dads that? if let's say in the future you were in an interview and red flags came up would you ask those questions would you say actually the fact that they're asking those questions that means no that you know I shouldn't work for this organization would you say having been through that you know is there still you know is it as clear-cut as they have a red flag no that's not the organization for me yes I think so and I think
00:33:18
Speaker
you know, I'm, as you've touched on that, I am just a normal working parent, you know, I've got my head down and tried my best to provide and and do what I can. And so ah this is, ah I'm sure I'm sure, and again, from, you know, the post, and I've read all those responses, Amy, on your post, but, you know, and it's that community of people that are in the same boat, you know, this is a situation that many, many people will have encountered. And I think in my current role now, what I then look at and go, well,
00:33:47
Speaker
Those red flags, there was a red flag, sorry, I think I would be more, um I'd have more courage to ask that question, to say, what can I ask, are you asking the dads on that? And it's daft things, like I remember pre-children, um I'm trying to think which role it was in, because I did and a number of jobs, it might have been one of my early fashion roles,
00:34:06
Speaker
Because I've been with my husband a very long time and we were thinking about children. And I remember desperately wanting to know what their maternity policy was just out of interest. I just wanted to know because I thought, well, I really like this company. I enjoy working here.
00:34:21
Speaker
And it was actually when I was in the business and I was like, it was It was kind of, you know, a number of years ago when those policies weren't at the forefront of of people. You know, you'd have to go to HR and ask that question. And I would desperately want to see it. And I didn't. I didn't ask because I was like, well, if I ask them, I think going to have a baby. And then there's that promotion coming up. And I'm like, whereas I feel like you go. And that's why I truly believe in every journey that you go on, whether it's an area that you don't, you know, that whole experience in that role where I was made redundant was incredibly challenging. But I needed to go through that.
00:34:52
Speaker
I needed to do that. And I believe that i was meant to do that um because it now gives me the conviction to call out those those situations. And even in conversations with friends, you know, or, or you know, in in wider circles, when we are talking about maternity and paternity and shared parental leave and all of these policies that support parents part time, as you touched on horrible term.
00:35:15
Speaker
hate it because part-time know there were roles that I was applying for and I was asking for part-time and I was like well you know you're getting as much value out of me across four days because I am so efficient if my time because I want to leave at five so I can get home for bedtime and that doesn't make me lesser employee than somebody who doesn't have that and will stay past five because their situation at home is different I've got caring responsibilities but that means that when I'm here I am 100% here. You know, I'm not going out, you know, daydreaming. I am focused because i my my time means a lot to me. If I'm giving up, I always remember the saying when I was doing the freelance, what projects I'd taken, wouldn't. And was like, if I'm paying for somebody else to look after my child in a childcare setting, then it has to be worth my time.
00:36:07
Speaker
If I'm paying for somebody, it wasn't even the cost of it. is ah If I'm not spending time with my child, if I'm not, if somebody else is seeing, my child for nine hours a day, it has to be worth it. It has to be something that's worth it. and So yeah, I'd feel a lot more confident calling out that now, for sure.
00:36:26
Speaker
I mean, that's that's great to hear because I think so many, I think you're right. And I think there's so many of us that are now have, you know, gone through things or going through things that we are getting more assertive to say that actually, no, that's not okay. And I think the more of us that start doing that and start calling people out and saying, you can't do that, that is not appropriate. Or like I say, even an interview, realizing it's a red flag calling them out on it, then, you know, that's what starts to change the needle because otherwise we don't start...
00:36:55
Speaker
sharing this and putting you know highlighting that it's not okay then it won't stop it just continue being okay they won't see the error of their ways as such so it is going I agree that you have to almost go through these things to just be on the other side and have you know and make those changes and then you know it makes you the person who are now. at Those experiences, although they are hard at the time, they give you sometimes that fuel to your fire. So when you were then on your maternity and you were looking for new roles to go into, what was that experience like and where are you now?
00:37:31
Speaker
Oh God, it was so hard. I remember applying for everything. i think I was in such a low place and I thought had so little to offer. i was applying for everything going and I was just desperately trying to get a role because I thought, well...
00:37:46
Speaker
My son was born in September. So I was kind of like, well, I've got till September, you know, I've got that's my year up, I need to have something. and And in the end, I came across, I and and came across them when I was going through the whole redundancy process, because um the role I'm at now, I work for a charity called Working Families.
Role at Working Families and Fulfillment
00:38:05
Speaker
And they are the UK's national charity for working parents and carers. And I'd actually come across them when I was going through the redundancy process, because they have a helpline that you can bring and advice pages that offer, you know, legal advice that says, you know, this is what is right. This is the policy. So I had encountered them and and had a wonderful experience with them.
00:38:24
Speaker
And then I'd seen this role and I was like, Oh gosh, like it's, ah you know, it's PR and marketing and digital and social and all the things that i love. And I've always been very passionate about that, that, you know, my work and what I do.
00:38:38
Speaker
and um, i see that I saw this role and I thought, right, I'll i'll i'll apply for it. I'll see. And my confidence was so low. And I remember doing the interview with my now manager, Sarah, and and another colleague and coming out and I worked from my shed at the end of the garden.
00:38:55
Speaker
I remember coming out of the shed and coming back into the kitchen where my husband was with the baby. And he was and? And i was like, I don't think I've got that because my confidence was so low. um But I got it and I was so thrilled. And I think,
00:39:08
Speaker
it's funny because it's a fully remote role. So then after the pandemic, the organization did have an office. And then after the pandemic, they realized, actually, we don't need an office. And um Jane, the the chief exec said in ah in a recent team meeting, she was like, well, it opened up the world. You know, the pandemic opened up the world for us and we've got members of the team from all over. So we've got,
00:39:29
Speaker
heads of within the organization that you know that don't live in london you know so it's very dispersed around the country which is beautiful and we come together once a month for a meeting and a team meeting which is great and even though it is fully remote i've never felt more connected to my team and that's against any role that i've had seeing them maybe five days a week in an office sitting opposite somebody i feel more connected to my team both in a professional way but also in a personal colleague way you know it's lovely um But I love the role that I do now because I'm actually, the work that i do is kind of pushing back against the issues that I've encountered over the last six years. So it feels like it's come full circle. And that's why I feel like I had to go through those experiences because my work predominantly sits across the social channels and press. So, you know, when, say for example, we get a message from somebody on Instagram going, this has happened and I don't know what to do.
00:40:26
Speaker
emotionally you know my heart goes out to them and I you know we can I can go back and say you know ring the helpline do this like look at this and offer that help and because I feel like I've been there been in that those trenches with you are feeling like that and it just you know a lot of the people that work within the organisation have been in similar situations and I think what's great about working families is that we're all banging the same drum we all want the same thing and you know there's the policy team that are making huge strides forward with government in actually changing laws, you know, making, you know, flexible working a day one, right, or the the new neonatal care leave act that's coming in, you know, making actual physical changes that impacts, you know, right down to the the legal advice service who were picking up the phone when that person is at their lowest moment, which I was, you know, picking up that phone and offering the advice is so important. And I think the role now just gives me so much joy. I think, yes, because of all of the amazing, and incredible things that
00:41:26
Speaker
the team do but also because I just feel like it's a role that is completely supportive it's um you know it's flexible I work nine till three four days a week um I literally you know go up go to the school run come back log on work through the day three o'clock log off and there's not that that overhang of oh gosh like am I going to come back in tomorrow to a load of messages you know everybody understands that We don't call it part-time. We call it a non-working day. So for example, Friday is my non-working day. and you know So the team now you know that's her day. You know i mean? like you You don't contact her on that day. And it's just it's not even something that you have to think about. The team would never think to contact you on that day. Unless there was like a PR crisis. you know and
00:42:14
Speaker
And it's it's it it's it's heart of everything Working Families does. It's to support people with care and responsibilities. And I think ultimately that is me. I have caring responsibilities at home and beyond caring responsibilities, I have a personal life that isn't just my children.
00:42:30
Speaker
i have relationships that need to manage. I have, you know, other parts of me that aren't a parent that are managed within this role, that are supported within this role. um So yeah, it's come full circle now and I feel incredibly lucky. I think it I always say to people, it's my unicorn because I found this job.
00:42:50
Speaker
i But what i love, and I think even though it's helped me find my purpose, what working families does is find unicorns
Balancing Career and Family Life
00:43:01
Speaker
for other people. You know, it's finding those roles for other people.
00:43:04
Speaker
It's giving them the knowledge around their workplace rights. It's making sure that they're lack unlocking the benefits that help them. um You know, so it's it's doing that for other people. And I feel like a,
00:43:15
Speaker
a small cog within that um so yeah it's it's it's finally given me the peace where I feel like you know what I'm progressing in my career it's not taxing too much you know it's not challenging me so much that I feel like it's diminishing me as a person it's actually making me flourish which is I never never thought I would have that again in a job whilst having three children age six and under so it's my unicorn definitely oh That's so great to hear. It's such a nice thing to call it. But it's, yeah, I think it just highlights how important, once you find the place that supports you properly and understands all of the needs that you have as a person, not just as a parent, that you can flourish, you can thrive. And you like you said, you it's so important when you're away from your children that you're doing something that is of benefit and that adds so much value to you. It's not, you know, taken away from you. And it sounds like this is a really good fit for that. It's, you know, tickling the boxes. It's,
00:44:12
Speaker
keeping your career going. It's giving you what you need. You have that space with your children and everything else. So I'm so pleased having heard what you went through that you're now almost able to to give it back.
00:44:24
Speaker
It feels like that completely. That's so great. And I think that's the thing, right? It is. It's like once you've been through something, you want to give it back. You want to help others. And it, the whole organization is doing that, which is why it's such a great place and it's such a great organization and we really support all of the work you're doing and you know we're thankful for you and we you know share that because actually we know how helpful it is to other parents and you know it's helpful for me too so I just think you know, organizations like Working Families will just, the things that we need to keep pushing for parents, sort being the voice, being the advocates, being, you know, the helping hand, the voice that we need, you know, or the listening ear, you know, in those times that were really rough. So it's so good that you found that. I'm really pleased.
00:45:07
Speaker
And I guess it's that, it's also that thing where I know you are so grateful to find that unicorn, but isn't it shame that we feel that great, you know, how we have to feel so grateful that actually that's not just the norm, that we don't just,
00:45:21
Speaker
get that when we have children that we get to go back to our careers and do something that we love we kind of have to fight hard for it you have and then you feel like you have to be grateful actually ah all organizations all companies should feel like that not just the really good ones so and you you know you feel lucky to find one so that's really lovely Stace I'm really pleased for you
00:45:47
Speaker
and Shall we move on to our our final few questions which ah you know and we ask everybody.
Career Reflection and Gratitude
00:45:53
Speaker
So with everything that you know now in your career and after having your children is there anything that you would tell your younger self or any changes that you'd like to make?
00:46:02
Speaker
I think even though it's been a really challenging few years I'm incredibly lucky that I've got three beautiful healthy boys and like I said you know I've had very you know healthy pregnancies labours and beyond and everything like that so even though my professional side has taken a real hit, I wouldn't change anything because I truly feel like, you know, in my role now at Working in Families, if I can help, you know, one parent feel, who's in my situation, who feels a little bit better about themselves or find a community of solidarity in Working Families, or, you know, if I'm able to engage one employer to think about their policies, then and that's enough. So I wouldn't change anything cause it's got me to where I am now.
00:46:47
Speaker
I think in terms of my younger self, I would definitely speak to Stacey, who was, you know, about to go on mat leave from that last role, you know, that last full time, five days a week in an office role, who was thinking, right, I'm going to go on mat leave now and have the baby and it'll, and just say to you know, things are going change.
00:47:08
Speaker
It is going to be different. You're going to feel different. Like I'm a completely different person to who I was then, completely different. and But, you'll come through it, like just give it time.
00:47:21
Speaker
and also like, you know, I did something with work the other day where we were doing like a meet the meet the team kind of posts on social to kind of bring, you know, faces to the organisation.
00:47:32
Speaker
And I, you know, I said one on my thing, it was like, trust the journey, you know, and I would say that to my younger self, like trust the journey, you're to really low moments, but you'll get there. And just, you know, don't doubt your abilities. Don't let other people and other businesses make you doubt yourself.
00:47:51
Speaker
And I think that's, that's, you know, that, that's probably what I'd say to her, but things are going to change. Oh yeah, they definitely do.
00:48:02
Speaker
I think if
00:48:08
Speaker
you knew that, I think sometimes you'd be like, no, I don't know if I believe it. You know, I think you just think, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. It's always fine. So final question then, if you could do or say one thing for yourself tomorrow, what would it be?
00:48:26
Speaker
gosh, I think, you know, I think one thing we say in work is around like work-life balance and it's not a term that we particularly love at working families because it shouldn't be a work-life balance, it should just be life and it should be, it should everybody,
00:48:43
Speaker
And, you know, everybody should have a balance and ah that supports what they need, whether that's their care responsibilities or their personal self. And I think, you know, each day i try and go into it Like so I've got three young children. So I i try and go into each day, each working day that i have thinking.
00:49:02
Speaker
You're really fortunate in terms of you have these moments, you know, I can have the school run, which is hectic and crazy. and I'm telling them to put their shoes on 50 times and everybody's crying and you know my now 18 month old is scaled chair and he's sat on the dining table and I'm just like what the hell is going on um but then I think you know what you're you're really lucky that you can drop them off with places and people that love them dearly and then you're going to come back get on you get to your desk and you can just switch into work mode and you know that's a real fortunate thing that have and
00:49:39
Speaker
remember that not everybody has that and what you're doing today is to try and be a part of a bigger thing that is changing that for everybody so I think I just kind of sometimes I as a person I fail to look at the bigger picture I can internalize stuff a lot and I can think what I'm you know terrible for comparing like what is that person doing what can I do like and just you know take a step back and look at the bigger picture and realize that I say it's my husband all the time because we have three boys I'm like there'll come a point where they might not want cuddles with mum, you know, because when they're teenagers, they might not want that. And it's like, oh, but you know, they, they might not, you know?
00:50:18
Speaker
and So, you know, just enjoy the moment and just look at the bigger picture. That is what I would say to myself. That's very wise. It's not easy though, right? It's really hard to enjoy those moments when you're trying to get out the door. I get you on that.
00:50:35
Speaker
But like you say, it's impossible to just think, But I do agree with you. I think we feel lucky that we get to do both of those things. We get to have that time. We get to work in way that we want. And we get to, you know, have that time with our children. not everybody gets to do that. And you do feel lucky for that.
00:50:56
Speaker
And so, yeah, it is just reminding yourself to enjoy it. I think it's a really smart thing. I have to do that a lot. Often at bedtime, I say. What am I doing this for? Oh, yeah, going enjoy this right now because this won't be forever, right?
00:51:10
Speaker
Stacey, that was just incredible. Honestly, it's rare to render me speechless, but you've rendered me speechless. You have been very quiet at this, Podem, I will say.
00:51:22
Speaker
I know was just like I have so much to say but I'm taking there there's so much you know that Stacey is saying that my brain's processing it because it's it's what an incredible journey to see you know to come full circle and I'm so glad that it has a happy ending thank you Thank you. Yeah. No, I love a chat, guys.
00:51:46
Speaker
So, yeah, sorry if you couldn't get a word in. I absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it. I think there's nothing we could say that would, you know, we do want to detract from your story because it was such a powerful one. So thank you. Thanks for joining us and we hope you have a lovely day. Thanks so much, Stacey. Bye-bye.