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Club Chat: The Motherhood Penalty
194 Plays6 months ago
Emma and Amy discuss one of the problems that most women face after having children: The Motherhood Penalty.
We talk about what it is, how it can impact us and what we can do about it. It's a meaty one, so get ready for some shocking data...
Here's the sources:
- Motherhood Penalty & Fatherhood Bonus (including the graph) – World Economic Forum
- Research from Pregnant Then Screwed
- The Motherhood Penalty in job quality – King’s Global Institute for Women’s Leadership
- Stats mentioned from the Fawcett Society
Our Book recommendations:
- Invisible Women – Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Perez.
- Pregnant Then Screwed – The truth about the Motherhood Penalty and how to fix it by Joeli Brearley
Follow us on Instagram @fivehourclub to get involved with our next Club Chat
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Stories
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, I'm Amy. And I'm Emma. And this is the 5-Hour Club Podcast, where we navigate life between the school runs.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, hello. Hello. how are you? I'm okay, yes. Survived half-term. How about you? Yeah, well done. Also survived half-term. Full week of parenting.
00:00:31
Speaker
Then off I go to a little ninety s naughty silent disco place. in the cathedral so that sounds cheeky that sounds fun why wasn't I invited I'm I know got very lucky with the ticket well sadly one of the mums couldn't go um but I got her ticket last minute so yeah accidental fun after a week of parenting but ready to get back into swing things now absolutely it's nothing quite like a week off is there to want to hit the ground running yeah exactly a week off quote unquote to remember yeah I'm i'm ready I'm ready to work
00:01:08
Speaker
And I'm happy about that. No, it was it was lovely, obviously. and Lovely and challenging in equal measures. But yeah, it's all good. Sounds good
The Motherhood Penalty: An Overview
00:01:19
Speaker
to me. All right, well, let's get into this club chat.
00:01:21
Speaker
A little bit of lighthearted chat. I'm very excited about this one. Yeah, I think it's going to be meaty. and In a weird way, I'm excited because it is it's a pretty juicy, meaty topic.
00:01:32
Speaker
It is. Which is... The motherhood penalty. then and And I try not to get too worked up about it when I'm doing a bit of research and all that, but inevitably ah do get worked up about it.
00:01:46
Speaker
I know. So we're going to have to try and just keep, you know. Raining in. Raining in a little bit, maybe. I'll touch your arm. ah Give me a... a ah what's a safe word a safe word a safe word like you know you're getting too too angry Emma I say cup of tea we need a cup of tea yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so you asked I think this is going to be yeah really meaty because I'm really interested to know because you asked some questions for a community and I've got some tidbits of information
00:02:21
Speaker
that I'd like to to kind of link in and chat about as well. Yeah, and if nothing else, I feel like hopefully we can validate maybe how some of the people out there feel about what is going on or has gone on for them.
00:02:33
Speaker
That's such a good point because actually when I was, you know, kind of doing, I do research on this, you know, every now and then, just a little bit of light heart to read on on the motherhood fantasy. It does, it makes me angry, but it also equally validates, well, no wonder we're feeling stressed out. No wonder we're feeling like this.
00:02:50
Speaker
you know, the system is broken. Exactly. It really, really is. And I think, yeah, if nothing else, we can hopefully... highlight just some of the problems and maybe some of the things we can do about it exactly exactly not all doom and gloom but it is right yeah so the first question I did ask was do you know what the motherhood penalty is yes and this is interesting to me because even i before you know i jumped into all the five-hour clubster like I knew I felt something yeah well I didn't quite know what it was and how to articulate what it was and you know what it meant and
00:03:27
Speaker
And the more I've read about it, the more I've learned about
Earnings Disparities: The Motherhood Penalty vs. Fatherhood Bonus
00:03:30
Speaker
it. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what it is. This motherhood penalty. What does that actually mean? And actually, it was split. So about 45% of our community knew what it was. were like, yep, I know what that is.
00:03:44
Speaker
And then the other 45% didn't know what it is. Don't know what it is. yeah And then you had this sort of middle ground where about 10% were sort of. Okay. Okay. Which is probably, you know, so can you tell us what is a motherhood penalty? I can. And I'm really, I'm especially excited to tell people what it is if you don't know.
00:04:01
Speaker
And I just want to reiterate exactly like you said, like we both, have we both were massively impacted by the motherhood penalty. as like the majority of mothers, but we didn't know it had a term. We didn't know that there's a huge amount of evidence and research on this.
00:04:18
Speaker
so I'm really happy to to talk about it and tell people what it is. Okay, so let's go, first of all, on it like the definition of what the motherhood penalty is and and kind of, there's a lot.
00:04:29
Speaker
You know, was saying to Amy earlier, I was like, we could talk about this for four hours, but we're going to keep it as so succinct as possible. So according to the World Economic Forum, the motherhood penalty refers to the decrease in earnings experienced by women after they become mothers compared to women without children.
00:04:47
Speaker
So overall, the penalty of becoming a mother is estimated to be b between 4% and 13%, so earnings over a lifetime. But this obviously depends on country, job, and individual characteristics.
00:04:59
Speaker
So ultimately, when we talk about the motherhood penalty, kind of the key thing that we're talking about is a loss of earnings. And ultimately, what we are talking about also, I know i know we're talking about here comparing I suppose, mothers to their, I'm going to say, quote unquote, childless peers.
00:05:18
Speaker
We can also look at it of of comparing at mothers to fathers, because I'm going to ask you if you know about something else in a moment. um So number one, yes, we are talking about money. We're talking about salaries.
00:05:31
Speaker
We are very much talking about the gender pay gap, because we also know, and I'm going to put a little disclaimer in here, and I'm going to be talking about some data points. And one of my pet peeves, if you say it, that And you don't say what the source is. We'll put the sources in the in the the show notes.
00:05:47
Speaker
um But one of the um one of the key things here is oh yeah, so the gender pay gap, actually we know that the majority sheet of the gender pay gap is because of the motherhood penalty.
00:06:01
Speaker
Okay. So now money is one thing and it's a massive thing, but there are actually other bits of research to show it is not just money and wages. It is also, as we know, the quality of jobs.
00:06:14
Speaker
It is also progression in those jobs. It is discrimination in in our careers. And also it has, you know, all of these things have massive implications.
00:06:25
Speaker
And one of those is on
00:06:32
Speaker
First of all, I'm going to show you a graph, Amy. right And i nobody else can see this graph, Emma. So can you just describe the graph ah for everybody else? I am going to describe the graph because just in a nutshell...
00:06:44
Speaker
I think summarizes the motherhood penalty in terms of earnings, right? So that the probably the most significant thing, right? So this graph is, you can see a line at the top of the graph and and at the bottom, you can see years after you have your children, right?
00:06:59
Speaker
And on the, on the as I put the Y axis, is the earnings impact. So the impact that it has on your earnings, right? Now, see that black line? Yeah, do you want to describe what it looks like? It's a pretty horizontal line. it sort of goes across...
00:07:14
Speaker
um Yeah, so there was no yeah there were sort of no impact on your earnings. Yeah, so essentially that's like zero impact on earnings, right? That green line, there's a vertical line and that green line goes down and that is a point at which you have children.
00:07:29
Speaker
The bottom line is a very steep decrease and a slight increase and then it just stays kind of across, but it is well beneath that upper line.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, there's a huge difference there between the flat black line and then the big dip for the blue line at the bottom. Do you want to guess which ones is moms and which ones is dads? Oh, I wonder. Could the top one be the dads where there's no ah impact on their earnings? And then the blue line is women where they have a huge decrease yes in their earnings. That is correct.
00:08:03
Speaker
So this, I think I just wanted to show this visual to you because this is the motherhood penalty visual perspective. Like, so number one, there's a massively steep decline, but it stays and that's significant. There has been other research like on gay couples and, and, um, you know, there is a decrease in the earnings of, you know, whoever get gave birth, you know, potentially if it's females, um, but actually,
00:08:25
Speaker
then it it they do level out over time. Whereas with men and women, it is different. Now, have you ever heard of a term called the fatherhood bonus? I have not, but I have ah an inkling what it could be. Tell more. so far I've mentioned about comparing women. you know with Women we don't have children. and There is a significant increase like difference in the in the amount of salary that you're in over a lifetime.
00:08:49
Speaker
But with fathers, not only is there a difference in, you know, ah mothers and fathers, there's something called the fatherhood bonus, which refers to the phenomenon where men experience an increase in earnings after becoming fathers compared to men without children.
00:09:06
Speaker
This fatherhood bonus is estimated to be between 3% and 10%. pre sent So you're saying that when men become fathers, they actually increase, they get this perk and this bonus yeah of earnings compared to men who don't have children.
00:09:21
Speaker
Correct. I mean...
00:09:25
Speaker
Surely that just makes it get even bigger. Yeah, it does. Because then women are reducing in their earnings and then men get this nice bonus. and And why is that? Because they just continue to work like they haven't got children and actually they work harder maybe because they have got something to work hard for. there have and So I haven't delved into as much of the reasons why, but I do know there is research to show that it's perceptions of father's.
00:09:52
Speaker
And that they're more reliable once they become fathers, et cetera, et cetera. Yet women, I'm sure, the perception of women would be that they become less reliable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas actually there is also research to show that mothers are the most productive group of workers.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, we're not getting paid for that. Yeah. it racy i It's pretty dire. Like when you lay it out like that, isn't it? Yeah. It's so depressing. And it's like, it almost, sadly, it feels like, well, it we just know that's the state of the land. That's the state of the land.
00:10:24
Speaker
and And also, I did look at like some of the best studies in terms of, a so it's it's obviously challenging because you know some of these studies are based in individual countries. It's going to depend on occupation. There's so many things to take into account, but There is something that we can't say. It is a global issue.
00:10:43
Speaker
And one of the studies that I looked at in particular is called a meta-analysis of many, many, many, many many countries. And in each country, um so for example, in the obviously in Nordic countries, the impact is less, whereas in England, it's pretty bad.
00:11:00
Speaker
We're definitely one of the worst countries for it. Brilliant. I know. Yay. So on that note. So that talks about earnings and money.
00:11:12
Speaker
yeah But I think it's also really important to note that there also talks, you know, there are other...
Discrimination and Career Changes Post-Motherhood
00:11:20
Speaker
penalties it's not just money it is and actually that's what was really interesting when we asked our community the next question we asked us how have you been impacted by having children yeah and actually we have got the probably the biggest response we've ever had from a club chat like the stories were flooding in in terms of what has actually happened to um to parents to mothers out there One of them in particular, so was that she had to leave her employer after 18 years, and which obviously there was a loss in the final salary in her pension.
00:11:51
Speaker
So that had a long term impact there. And this was at a times top 50 employer. So even though she was a high achiever before, she had to leave that company after becoming a mother, which had a huge impact not only on her in the short term, but in her long term pension as well. so That's huge. And then we've and we've had just had, you know, yes, it's impacted me 100%, 100% it's impacted me.
00:12:13
Speaker
Other people saying about their salary, they can't even get a quarter of what they were earning before. So if you think about the type of work they might have to do now or what opportunities are available to them now. Yeah. and One mother said that she was made redundant after five weeks so after returning from maternity leave and when we when I was looking at all the stories there's just such discrimination but it's not just at one point it's at all stages of becoming a mother so you've got the the becoming pregnant the bias that comes with being pregnant and you know what you're now capable of and maybe the promotions that you had before are now not you know there for you then you go on maternity leave and your sense of belonging changes for the company you get left out of things I mean
00:12:54
Speaker
In our podcast this week, we've got Sophie who tells us about how she just felt like she didn't belong in the company anymore. um um And then you've got the like difficulty in returning to work after yeah children. and you know At what point do you do that? you know What implications does that have in your long-term career? So we had lots of, ah all points of mothers' careers, they felt impacted.
00:13:16
Speaker
And can we share the most recent research that we know around... particularly around the pregnancy and maternity leave piece, which is a lot of you may know about the 54,000 women who you know lose their jobs during pregnancy or after maternity leave.
00:13:33
Speaker
um But most, we've got recent research five years later to say that there's been a 37% increase from women to now women have lost their jobs by becoming pregnantn yeah and isn't that shocking the fact that actually this problem is getting worse so this comes from pregnant and screwed and women in data and it's just really solid evidence to show the impact that this has on us yeah immediately yeah i think there's there's so much to unpick from this but i do want to to say number one like it really goes to show like
00:14:11
Speaker
when people responded that it is at all stages of the journey. It's not just returning to work. It it is, you know, from the moment that you get pregnant. Or even that thought of not even becoming pregnant, that you might go up as a in your mid-twenties.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah. And that interview, they might ask you about whether you're getting married or whether you're going to be yeah thinking about having children soon. And that could have an impact on you. So the fact you're just a woman. Yeah, yeah. Going for a new Or trying for a baby. You know, you're you're exactly right. Like even before pregnancy. So yeah, that's, it's just...
00:14:41
Speaker
The bias is just so bias yeah strong. And I think it's so inbuilt in our system that it works against us as women that, you know, because we are the ones who need to have the children, that therefore we are the ones that lose out and are, well, you know, tough luck, you're woman.
00:15:00
Speaker
And it just... it's It's just really, it was just really sad to hear so many stories and you could feel kind of the anger that was coming through as part of them because it's not just one. It's just, if I feel like everybody, every mother you speak to has some, felt some sort of discrimination by becoming a mother. So that's it. And that's why we set up Fiverglo in the first place. We were like, how on earth do people do it? Why are people dropping out of the workforce? Why are people changing the careers? Why are people accepting half of their salary just because of their mother? And now we are like, okay, so it's really, read it's not just us, it's globally.
00:15:37
Speaker
And instead, you know, I'm not going to go through ah like each of the day. It is depressing. And um that that is the truth. But let's talk about, um let's break this down a little bit and talk about job quality.
00:15:50
Speaker
Because i think this has a massive impact on the motherhood penalty. And I think that probably came through the stories because if you have to leave somewhere that you've been working full time, knowing that after you become a mother, certainly in the UK, the majority of people do not return to that full time role.
00:16:08
Speaker
You are going to have to problem solve and think on your feet and think about what you can do. And the truth of the matter is that there is this job quality. Okay, so let's have a look at some of the stuff that the King Global Institute for Women's Leadership has done some research on this.
00:16:24
Speaker
And they said there is also ah this motherhood penalty in job quality. So what is job quality, ah first of all? So it means aspect of a job beyond salary. So these include demands, autonomy, benefits, flexibility, and job security.
00:16:39
Speaker
We know the parents want flexibility. We know that mothers in particular are likely to change their careers and change their roles to get that flexibility and to get that part-time job. Now, I'm not going to talk too much about part-time work because we we're going to do a whole thing part-time work.
00:16:57
Speaker
But their research also shows that mothers, particularly those with young children, face multiple disadvantages when it comes to job quality. And they do also say that part-time jobs are likely to be poor quality.
00:17:08
Speaker
and And then there's other research that shows like if you go to part-time, it's going to impact on your career progression. It's going to impact on, so you know, so it's not just on the money.
00:17:19
Speaker
It's going to impact on progression and the quality of jobs that are available. Well, that's it. It's just such... slim pickings I mean yeah we know that it's just there's just so few opportunities for parents to return mothers to return to work after having children that are flexible yeah enough that work within a broken child care system as well and there's such a lack of affordable childcare out there that stops us from working full-time easily or you know affordably that some it's
00:17:51
Speaker
What am trying say? hey Like the truth of the matter is all this is doing, all this motherhood stuff, all of the data, it just reinforces our problems.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah. Like, it is such slim pickings. And we and we know this. And it's so frustrating that there's so much research i there. that it says it that It says that this is part of the problem. Yet, nothing is being done to create more high-quality opportunities to get these mothers back into work. It's not rocket science.
00:18:21
Speaker
It's just not rocket science. Like we need those high quality roles. And I mean, other research from the Fawcett Society said that 85% of working mothers struggle to find a job that can accommodate their childcare needs.
00:18:33
Speaker
And two fifths of working mothers have turned down a promotion due to childcare pressures. Well, that's it. Well, if it's not a shared responsibility in the home and the mother has taken on the majority of the childcare need, then how else? They can't juggle everything. Women, we can't have it all because the system is broken.
00:18:52
Speaker
The system is indeed broken. Amy, yes it is. And i like, so oh my goodness, so was reading Invisible Women and, im you know, I think I was like highlighting the whole chapter.
00:19:03
Speaker
And there are so many implications in society for the motherhood penalty. So I know that you're talking about discrimination, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, and this is from Invisible Women, so globally, 75% of unpaid work, so for example, childcare and housework, et cetera, cetera, is done by women.
00:19:25
Speaker
So, and who spend between three and six hours per day on it compared to men's average of 30 minutes to two hours. I mean, that's a stretch sometimes.
00:19:36
Speaker
But the thing is, it is a stretch. And I think ultimately the the upshot is around the world with very few exceptions, women work longer hours than men.
00:19:46
Speaker
So we, but it's just unpaid. Yeah. It's all that invisible labor, right? like And that is actually one, before we even kicked off Five Hour Club, that was one of the things we wanted highlight, wasn't it? Was the invisible labor that goes into having children. All the things you do at home to run the household, to get the kids to school, to get everything a washed, ironed, you know, PTA things picked up, whatever it is.
Unpaid Labor and Career Impacts on Mothers
00:20:10
Speaker
you're doing all this kind of stuff without being noticed but that takes up a huge chunk of time yeah which if it was shared it would give you more time to be able to work to be able to put that energy into you know your job and your career which you know yeah men can do because they don't have to do that that's that's the absolute truth of it and that's why you know like parental leave share parental leaves and things like that are so great But ultimately, the crux of it is that you've got this huge significant of invisible unpaid labor that women are doing.
00:20:41
Speaker
So therefore, and and again, this is and from Invisible Women and and the incredible research that she did. There's quite a lot of research on this, that i if you have a higher, if you have jobs that have kind of moderate amount, I'm going say they're high hours, essentially,
00:20:58
Speaker
if you increase the number of hours, let's say 50 hours, women suffer significantly more than men in terms of their mental well-being and stress um and and like very serious diseases, whereas men, um there it affects them in a positive way. They get looked after the women.
00:21:21
Speaker
So that's the truth of it. And that is the truth of it. And and again, ah you could go into more details about like when women are, are um there's much better outcomes for men than women after heart surgery, ultimately because they have care responsibilities and have to get back to quicker.
00:21:38
Speaker
so So what I'm saying is even the number of hours worked ultimately, We need part-time jobs. So to be able to make up for all the other stuff that we have to do and to manage. Exactly. And we need to normalize part-time jobs for fathers and make sure that these part-time jobs are high quality for both. We just need to change the system.
00:21:59
Speaker
That's it. but We really do. It's just so frustrating. and And you touched on it there in terms of the other things is that came through was that how, you know, this has a physical impact on women as well. It has that mental impact on women. I know myself personally like that.
00:22:13
Speaker
The lack of confidence you feel when and after you've had children, you've taken some time out of work, you tried to go back into the workforce, and then you just have this lack of confidence to be able to do that and be able to feel like you can get a job again.
00:22:26
Speaker
And you're like, well, what do I have to give now? I've had five years out. Well, I'm not um app employable anymore. Well, that's not true. In fact, you've got even more skills, but you feel like you have it. And you feel so in that regard, it's like all that the mental health stuff or the physical health stuff is also part of the penalty.
00:22:43
Speaker
A hundred percent. It is part of the penalty. and and in And in so many respects. Like it is very much mental health and physical health. And which is why so many women also then choose to or not choose, but it's that they're forced to give up work.
00:22:58
Speaker
like because Yeah. Because there are no other options. So financially it doesn't work because actually your costs don't cover childcare. Yeah. And then, and you have to work part time and then physically and mentally you also get burnt out and it's just too much to do. And then, you know, your health decreases. Yeah. So you have almost no choice but to not work.
00:23:16
Speaker
So that's basically it. Like there is, um did I think this is from Invisible Women as well. And I just got to read it out because it links nicely to to what you're saying. So call someone's segregation into low paid work a choice.
00:23:31
Speaker
But it's a funny kind of choice when there is no realistic option other than the children not being cared for and the housework not getting done. This choice that isn't a choice is making women poor. Yep.
00:23:42
Speaker
It's literally just what you're saying. There is no choice. You have no choice. I literally felt like I had no choice when I wanted to return to work. I was like, well, I need to go back, put more stress on me because it's not valuable because I'm not getting any money out of it. And then I'm just adding more stress.
00:23:59
Speaker
So I might as well just not. And we have to be very real here. Like in the UK, we do have one of the most expensive child cares in the world. So even if you were to go back full time you know in the short term you're an e so many people are just going to be paying to work now not like that in the long term well this is it there's that interesting which I'll come on to later in terms of what you can do about it but there's that thing is it's the short term if you're financially not the short term gains maybe there is in the long term terms of your career yeah so so let's talk now about what you can do then to maybe overcome some of these challenges and some of this penalty apart from just not having a baby you know unless you're yeah unless you're a man having a baby's great if you're woman maybe not um so lots of of our parents just basically they didn't really have a response to that they were like just cry
00:24:55
Speaker
One that just struggle on. yeah um Someone said, i don't, I just have to accept it. Somebody else said they changed career to, you know, maybe do something more positively about it. Somebody, you know, taking it each day as it comes, but then also having to think about this long-term stuff.
00:25:09
Speaker
And one which I thought was quite interesting was that she said, advocate for yourself without emotion see that for me that without emotion piece is really interesting you feel like you know this is a really emotional it is part of your life you are essentially going back to work you've got your children there which you know is a hugely emotional part of your world you know you know at what point do you go back you know do you go back early but then you have less time with them it's quite an emotional decision it is when you go into the workplace then you feel like you have to almost, you know, work like you don't have children and just put on that stiff upper lip and and push you for yourself because nobody else will, but do it in a way where, you know, there's no emotion brought into it.
00:25:54
Speaker
And that for me makes me feel really sad because like it is a really emotional thing having children. It is an emotional thing going back to work after children. You're making a choice and, but you feel like you can't, you can't feel those things in the workplace.
00:26:07
Speaker
It's just so, so, i know I said it million times ah before it and I'll say it again, it's so, so, so broken. And like one of my friends is looking at moving to another job because her job is not sustainable at the moment.
00:26:21
Speaker
um But her options because a child for when her child will be going to school. Her options are to take a role that's literally half her pay because she gets really good holidays at the moment. So then there's a feeling of feeling stuck in a job and a career that doesn't suit you, that, you know, that really is unsustainable. But you kind of have to stay there because that suits your current set of circumstances or take half the pay cut.
00:26:49
Speaker
It's just, stuck is the perfect word.
Career Stagnation and Systemic Issues for Mothers
00:26:52
Speaker
That feeling, I know that feeling of being stuck and that's not right. Like we should not feel stuck. What what man feels stuck know once i have a kid?
00:27:01
Speaker
They don't really. i be yeah like die We were sold such a lie. Yeah. And I honestly, oh I never realized this until I, not when I was pregnant, but when I had the baby. Yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker
ah So at what point did you feel this? At what point did you feel like, oh, actually, shit, I feel stuck here. This is, this is I don't have a choice, but I'm going to do this.
00:27:27
Speaker
I do have that particular moment of when I knew I didn't want to be teacher anymore because I knew i didn't want to do both. I didn't want to do teaching. And when I was looking at changing careers, then felt stuck.
00:27:44
Speaker
because I knew that I would have to do a proper pivot, even though i could apply for roles that took into account my skills and experience.
00:27:59
Speaker
um But because I was looking for something flexible, it was a massive pay cut. And it was like deleting my PhD. off my CV.
00:28:10
Speaker
Then think, honestly, it was in or around that time of looking for jobs, knowing i do actually have a hell of a lot of years and qualifications, but i I'm just going to have to lower my myself.
00:28:24
Speaker
Lower myself is not the right word. I'm going to have to just delete years of it's essentially you're ripping up your cv at that point yeah right yeah yeah you might as well just put it in the bin and start you're starting all over again lower myself is absolutely not the right words but do you know what i mean like yeah you're lowering your expectations so lowering expectations that's what i was looking for lowering myself lowering my expectations about what you can achieve and what you can you know your ambitions which you had before children they don't just vanish because you have children in fact for me, my ambitions probably got stronger since I had children because i I want to show them what it means to work. And, you know, I want to do something for myself even more despite having children. Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So did you have a particular moment? Because that was, that was, it was definitely moment where was like, wait just a minute. And did you have a particular moment where, when you realized, oh, hang on, Yeah, and i and I will say i was very naive.
00:29:20
Speaker
So I had, I was in a fortunate position where I was able to say, okay, well, like I'm going to choose to have time off the children. I was, I had this five years in my head, because, you know, i for me, I was an earlier teacher. I know yeah the importance of that. And I wanted to spend that time with them. It's something my mom couldn't give to me. And I wanted to give that back.
00:29:40
Speaker
And it was at the point when I was about five years in and I i remember I sat on my sofa and I looked at my husband and I and i said, i I don't know what to do. I want to go back to work, but how the hell am I meant to go back to work?
00:29:54
Speaker
like He has a very demanding job. we there was eat There was no way that there was any flex in what he is doing. So what was I meant to do? Okay, so I can figure this out. And I just felt like, well, there are no options because...
00:30:07
Speaker
What I would do would be very low pay. I would either be starting again or you know, what I really wanted to do was continue my career path to being a psychologist. But to be able to even retrain was almost impossible with children. You know, their full-time options and all of those things that there wasn't anything that fit my circumstances.
00:30:26
Speaker
So how the hell was I meant to go back to work and even to find that role that would help me do the stepping stone, the tiny little stepping stone to get back on that career path. And because I'd had such a long time out, i was like,
00:30:38
Speaker
shit, I've, I spent too much time out. It was like, I just didn't even think about, although I that i enjoyed being at home with them.
00:30:49
Speaker
There were points, you know, I started a little business in between because there, you know, there was agitation there, but it wasn't enough to sort of keep my brain working. And I was like, I'm But how am I going to even have a career now?
00:31:01
Speaker
and But I needed something, anything. And I was just like, I have no choice. I just, um I might as well stay at home because I have no choice. I am just stuck. And then what the Because I basically just, all my, I'm completely financially dependent on my husband.
00:31:20
Speaker
I, you know, where do I go from here? Short term, long term. I was dependent and that was a huge mistake looking back in that sense. Yeah. um And that's when I realized, I was like, that, it's when it hit me.
00:31:34
Speaker
That, yeah, yeah it it was, it wasn't the wrong decision, but it was a naive decision. No, it's not a naive decision because we are not informed.
00:31:46
Speaker
That, in a nutshell, is a motherhood penalty. Because that, ah you know, the research again that shows is like having that break, that has the biggest impact on salary and job quality. is is actually having that career break, even having more than a six-month break.
00:32:04
Speaker
But sure, I didn't know any of that. They didn't teach me that in the NCT, did they? Well, they did not. I mean, push out your baby have your baby. Make sure you breastfeed it to a year old at least. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the entire change. up But nothing about career growth.
00:32:22
Speaker
Like, it wasn't... You weren't naive. We were sold a lie. Viva. It was, you know... Nobody knows. No. We are not informed about this. And I feel like everyone kind of learns about it like the hard way. Like our system is not set up for two full-time working parents.
00:32:42
Speaker
But yet, ah financially, a lot, you know, in in many cases, really, you need those two full-time wages. But one person really has to be flexible. Yeah, because of the care responsibilities and everything else that goes with having children. Yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
So then what, so we need to get that system that then works for that other person who needs to have that flexibility. And also, I... i you know, just in my current set of circumstances, I don't want to work full time because I do want, like, the time is going by so quickly. It's actually insane. Like, I remember my sister saying to me, like, once they go into school, time is going to bite so quickly. And it is.
00:33:19
Speaker
And, like, I do want to be there, you know, sometimes after school. And I do love, you know, doing the drop off. And that's it. And you want to be available to go to their nativity or their sports day and all those things. Like, we become parents because we want to have children.
00:33:32
Speaker
It's not like we become kids and we just, you know, have a tip box. Oh, done. We give them to a nanny to look or whatever to look after and we don't want to see them. No, actually, most women have children because they want to spend time and nurture.
00:33:44
Speaker
Particularly in this day and age, right? There is so much pressure. For us to parent in a certain way and be certain types of mothers and, you know, have all of these things and social media does not help with that. No, it doesn't. You painting this perfect picture of all these things you can and should be doing with your children. But how are you going to do that? You're meant to also work and you're meant to also have a perfect house. There is no time. It's like you can't win either way.
00:34:10
Speaker
and I think all we can do and all we can take from this is that it ah we absolutely there's a reason why we are feeling stressed out and overwhelmed and burnt out you know and and it and do remember that even if it's unpaid it is still work you were working long hours even if you are part-time you are still working you still have all these responsibilities so you are tired and you know there's a reason why you're going to end up doom scrolling at 11 o'clock at night because that's your only bit of me time yeah like
00:34:45
Speaker
it's you know So what can we do going forward to carve out a little bit of problem solving for the situation going forward? Yeah. so I mean, we were a bit of a loss with this, weren't we?
00:34:57
Speaker
So we we've got the basically our new Bible, which is Jodie Braley's The Motherhood Penalty Book. And she's got a great chapter in there all around this. And she provides some sort of tangible ways that you can kind of proactively do something about this penalty for your sewing situation and so one of the ways that she suggests you do is that before you decide to to you know take time out of work and before you know when you're pregnant and about to have the children you're going to sit down with your partner no matter how hard it is and actually talk about the finances what does that mean financially for both of you and particularly for you you
00:35:35
Speaker
At that point, you you know, asking your partner to split their pension contributions but and with you and sharing their income with you. It's not, a you know, you're a team situation at this point. The finances should be shared.
Financial Planning and Career Strategies for Mothers
00:35:49
Speaker
But it's that longer term piece, which is something I didn't think about, which... I'm my husband did do a good job of that but it's not something that I went him and said I'll make sure that we're topping up my pension contributions so that is something that such good advice because how many of us and I know I was certainly one of those when you when you are think about going back to work and you're thinking oh well that only cover is two days of child care it's not just your work it's also your partner's work
00:36:21
Speaker
Think about it as ah as a family pot as opposed to just your salary yeah and going back to work. It's a combined income. So the childcare is not coming out. If you go back to work, it's not coming out of your pot. It's not money in, money out of your account.
00:36:35
Speaker
It's shared. It should be shared. yeah And if you can, you know, create more of a shared responsibility from the beginning, which is something I did not do. and you know, if there is an opportunity for shared parental leave, take it. Oh, yeah. Because then that there's lots of benefits to that, right? And I've said this in hindsight, that if I had gone back to work and had almost forced the situation to be shared and the responsibilities to be shared, it would be a lot easier now. We're going for a really tricky dynamic shift now where actually I need some more help with the childcare. need some more help around the house. But we've got such into ah a dynamic where he does that bit, brings in the money, and I do this the house bit and the kids.
00:37:15
Speaker
and it's there's no flex between and it doesn't that's all you've ever known since you've had kids that's it but we should have from the beginning if we had had shared parental leave and he had taken some responsibility and had recognized what was there in a very natural way would you know the change would have been easier that's for sure and the cost and all of those things would have been more split um and then with that jody recommends that really although in the short term if you return to work the financial gains might not be there in terms of, you know, you might not really be earning much beyond, know, spilling out for childcare.
00:37:51
Speaker
But actually in the long term, by returning to work, say after a year, then you're back on that career ladder. You're back in that progression. And that is crap because that is playing the game, right? That is playing the man game.
00:38:03
Speaker
That is saying, well, i've I've got to go back to work because otherwise my i will just stop in my progression. Yeah. Yeah. And that is where, again, I think about in hindsight, like if I'd gone back to work, i would a kid even if it was part time, I would have kept my foot in the door and kept my career moving forward.
00:38:21
Speaker
Instead, I just stopped it. And that is has had a massive impact for me now, but also in my long term progression. Yeah, and we can already see, this is what i love to showcase some stories of like kind of dream role of like head of analytics at IKEA.
00:38:38
Speaker
and and And she talked about working part time for 10 years. So she kept her foot in the door and now she's, you know, in that amazing position And there are like lots of great stories out there. That's it. And that's what the ones we need to highlight. right and The women who have been able to go back to a part-time work to keep their career moving. And that's what we say about the five-hour workday. It's kind of an opportunity to keep your toe, dip your toe back in for a short season of your career, your life.
00:39:02
Speaker
So then when you can go back, when the kids don't need you so much more, you can ramp it up again. yeah But currently going back part-time, it's kind of pointless because yeah there's nothing, you know, you're not really...
00:39:13
Speaker
continuing their career it's just keeping a bit of money coming in maybe yeah yeah um the other thing that jodie of care men said if you know if you know in your company and we're looking at some of these big corps here who are you know that they've got huge gender pay gaps you know find out what the gender pay gap is in your company you know if you've got a deri report find out what it is and if there is a huge gap you know start a network, start women's group, parent group, but focusing on mothers and build up that community around you and the voice within the company to find ways to start to reduce that. so
00:39:49
Speaker
even if nothing else, to have peers who who get it and feel the same way as you do. That's great. And to be advocates, all together banging on the boss's door to be like, actually, yeah pay us what we deserve. yeah so I think those are really great, tangible things you can do.
00:40:05
Speaker
Sadly, you know, you're kind of having to play the game a little bit there, yeah you know, and thinking... before you have kids, what this actually means for you.
00:40:15
Speaker
yeah But you don't realise it until it's too late. It's being intentional. Do we need to set up just like another alternative NCT style course except five-hour club for fat women? We don't have enough to do, Amy.
00:40:30
Speaker
Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's just, and actually it is funny when my sister was yeah about to have children and before I even knew she was pregnant, I was banging on to her about, right, make sure you do this in your workplace. Make sure you get this role. Make sure you do this. Yeah.
00:40:46
Speaker
Make sure you've got all this under your belt and do da da da. And then she was like, I'm pregnant. I'm like, oh shit.
00:40:53
Speaker
Too late. Too late. Too late. You're pregnant and screwed. She's screwed. I mean, we laugh about it, but it's like, what else can you do? It's so, It's so so, unbelievably, shockingly dire and, you know, something that impacts us globally and it's so widespread and so bad.
00:41:15
Speaker
um But it's nice to know that there are things that we can do in the right direction. This is one of the reasons why we feel so passionately about Five Hour Club. We know that by creating these high quality roles, you can genuinely make a tangible impact.
00:41:32
Speaker
on the motherhood penalty that's why that's the hope that's the dream Emma the big dream is that but yeah we yeah if nothing else just to freaking highlight how bad the problem is yeah to highlight and sometimes yeah it's like anything in life when you sometimes just identify and recognize yeah that is hard then you kind of feel a bit better about yourself Do you know what I mean?
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah, I would recommend to anybody to read Jodie Brady's book. Do you know what? It's so good. And i'm I'm listening to it. And it's it's actually, i was really surprised as to how a book can talk about something so serious, but make me laugh at the same time.
00:42:16
Speaker
because she's so funny. like is it It's very good read. I mean, it might make you angry. It's a huge moment. Yeah, it'll make you laugh. know it'll make you. you want to cry cry in a corner yeah but least were all in it together if nothing else the silver lining is that you know we're all fucked so um so on that note should we end it there um i think so i don't think there's any more we can laugh and cry about that's it for today right