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I'm Katie, I'm a HR leader, and I know why flexibility works both ways
112 Plays2 months ago
This is the story of Katie Elliot (also known as HR Katie), mum of 2 who understand what it means to be flexible. She shares what it was like to commute full-time with young children, the problem with part-time work and how she made the most of a perfect storm to set up HR Katie. to help other small businesses
Find HR Katie here: www.hrkatie.co.uk
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Transcript
Introduction to 5-Hour Club Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, I'm Amy. And I'm Emma. And this is the 5-Hour Club Podcast, where we navigate life between the school runs.
Katie Elliott's Career Challenges Post-Motherhood
00:00:20
Speaker
In this episode, we share the story of Katie Elliott, also known as HR Katie, who since becoming a mum of two faced problems with progression and redundancy after working her way up in a career in human resources.
00:00:32
Speaker
She talks about the days where working from home didn't exist and she would juggle the commute and two small children, the lack of part-time work and how boundaries are the source to her success both personally and professionally. She also gives a unique insight about why flexibility needs to work both ways.
00:00:47
Speaker
It's a story of determination, resilience and making the most out of a perfect storm and we hope that you enjoy it.
00:00:59
Speaker
Hello, hello. Hello. hi there.
Transition from Recruitment to HR
00:01:03
Speaker
So today, hi Katie, we are joined by Katie. Now you're a mum of two, you've got an eight and ten year old and you're a qualified HR expert with over ten years experience and now the founder of HR Katie.
00:01:16
Speaker
So, Before we talk about that, can you tell us what your life was like before you had children and how your career started? Yeah, sure. So um I, as you said, I've been in ah hr for kind of over 10 years, but I started in a way that is sort of traditional, sort of not, in that i e began in recruitment, actually.
00:01:38
Speaker
So um I was working in a small boutique recruitment agency in London And I was there for about four years and I had some really nice clients. And effectively, i got poached by one of my clients who said, hey, we're doing loads of recruitment. It was a sort of a scaling SME.
00:01:56
Speaker
We're doing loads of recruitment at the moment. I don't want to keep paying fees for you to find me people. Can you just come and work for me and find me people? So I said, oh, yes, please. ah Because I was kind of done with them.
00:02:09
Speaker
you know, the sales side of recruitment, to be honest, by
Balancing Motherhood and HR Responsibilities
00:02:12
Speaker
that point. and And um yeah, so I sort of got my foot in the door with this growing SME. And it was just me and the HR director. So basically, I was the kind of person on the ground.
00:02:25
Speaker
And very quickly, A, I was doing all the recruitment, so I met all the new people coming in through the door. So they would come straight to me for stuff they needed when they were on board because I was who they knew.
00:02:36
Speaker
and then also, yeah, I was the sort of boots on the ground person in London um when she was off doing you know more high-level director stuff. So had a very rapid kind of introduction to being an ah HR generalist, effectively, because when you're in a growing company like that, and and and I'm sure...
00:02:56
Speaker
a lot of your listeners are probably working in smaller companies or have worked in smaller companies before. You kind of do everything. It's a bit like running your own business sometimes, but you know um the best way to learn is basically just do everything. So although I started in recruitment, very quickly I was dealing with you know all the other hr stuff from like exiting people, um dealing with light discipline issues, working with performance management, et cetera.
00:03:27
Speaker
It was a really fantastic opportunity that I grabbed with both hands to sort of just learn everything I could. um yeah And then, i you know, they put me through my qualifications.
00:03:40
Speaker
I got married. And then, yeah, decided... wanted to have a baby had the first one so yeah life as we know it somewhat changed and how was that for you when you sort of so you yeah built up all this experience you've done your qualifications and then you had your baby it sounds like it was pretty quick after that that you had your first baby did it feel like you were sort of ready to take a step out of your career at that point or were you wanting to keep going No, absolutely not. So I will be honest and say that motherhood absolutely not knocked me sideways the first time. Like ah in a way that I suppose it does for most people, but like I just did not see it coming, like how much of a head scramble it was going to be. So um i was only on SMP and I could only afford to take nine months. I couldn't go on to completely unpaid. So, you know, by the time maternity leave,
00:04:38
Speaker
ended and I was back at work again, it was literally, I just hadn't had time to think about what do I want to do What does it want to look like? I asked to go down to four days. They said yes in a heartbeat.
00:04:51
Speaker
By that point, I was running a team in London. So i had an HR assistant working with me We kept on the person that had been my maternity leave cover. So I became her manager.
00:05:06
Speaker
So it was a big role and it was a really busy role. And it was on four days a week. So I was doing that classic thing we all talk about of like, I basically did full time job, but I only got paid for four days.
00:05:18
Speaker
And again, dear listener, please remember this is pre-pandemic. So I was commuting from Hertfordshire every single day that I was going into the office you know, doing the nursery drop off, doing the nursery pickup.
00:05:33
Speaker
I had, yeah, condensed my hours. No, I hadn't. Well, I was working shorter hours. I had to leave by 4.30 to be back for the 6pm pickup.
00:05:43
Speaker
There would be those days where I was on a WhatsApp group with all the nursery mums. There would be the sort of the call of like the trains, the trains. And everyone be like, got to go, I've got to go get the train.
00:05:55
Speaker
This now feels so foreign, but like that was our lives. That was what we had to do. We were absolutely slave to the nursery hours and the and the trains and the, yeah, being in the office four days a week.
00:06:09
Speaker
and And then, you know, as I said, as I was running a team, there were days on a Friday, I remember being, you know, on a play date with my NCT lot and I'd be getting a phone call being like, I know you're not working today, but we really need to talk to you about something.
00:06:22
Speaker
So it was big. It was a big job. And yeah, and then, you know, lo and behold, I got pregnant again. So had to do all of that, plus commute again whilst pregnant. and And yeah, again, it's dim and distant dim and distant past. But, you know, the days I had to stay home and have scans or like go to doctor's appointments and stuff, that all had to be pre-planned.
00:06:47
Speaker
It was, you know, it was it was so inflexible in terms of like... working from home once a week or like what it was like i had to ask in advance to get permission to work from home so it it was just a totally different vibe and yeah obviously the company was a lot bigger by then i had a team it had become Yeah, quite a big role.
00:07:12
Speaker
I just try, my brain is trying to wrap my head around the logistics because you said, you racing back for that 6pm pickup. What time would you have dropped your child off at nursery?
00:07:28
Speaker
Like close to 8am, you know, it was that... you know, to get the train into London and be at your desk for sort of nine or nine-ish. Yeah, she was an eight till six baby, like three days a week. mike I was very lucky that my parents are local and they would do they did a Monday for me.
00:07:46
Speaker
So she was only in nursery those three long days, but it was three full, full days in nursery. um And what impact did that have on you?
00:08:00
Speaker
Sorry, Katie. Well, you know, it's the classic mum guilt, isn't it? And I know that this is something that's being discussed even this week as as as we're recording this. I've seen...
00:08:14
Speaker
posts about like, have you ever heard of dad guilt? But, you know, the mum guilt was so real because you feel like you're failing your child and you're failing the company that pay you because you're just constantly clock watching. You're just constantly on your phone, checking emails.
00:08:33
Speaker
There's no kind of respite. I used to try and really make a point of not checking my emails on the phone on the way home. And watch something on iPlayer or something like that so that I did have that kind of decompression zone because it's just so overwhelming the whole time I will say I did get better at that once I had kids because I do think my brain did find it easier to flip into like home Katie and work Katie um so I think I got better at it as I
00:09:06
Speaker
had the children yeah because I was I just found it much easier to compartmentalize and be like well I'm with my kids now so you can just all get lost basically it's amazing isn't it that you know sort of what barriers and boundaries we can create when we realize actually these are my priorities now right and and there's sometimes there's no other ways there apart from doing that and boundarying your time because otherwise like you say you feel like you're doing 50 on both sides of the game and and you don't feel like you're achieving anything yeah yeah Yeah, I mean, it just sounds like it was just a lot. So at what point did you step out of that big job and big role? Was it after you had your second, before?
00:09:49
Speaker
No, so this is an interesting story and a little... little I was thinking about how to tell this, but um effectively, yeah I was pregnant with my second and at that point we were going through the kind of the annual reviews, et cetera, et cetera, and my boss...
Career Barriers and Legal Issues
00:10:07
Speaker
By this time, I had a ah new boss who worked out of our office in Leeds. And I will kind of caveat this by saying that, like, you know, my senior, the senior manager, the sort of COO, I suppose, like chief of ops or whatever, he wasn't the CEO, but he was sort of the second one down.
00:10:24
Speaker
He, you know, when we had people coming into the visit into the business, he would say, this is Katie, she's head of HR in London. And, you know, that was how he used to, like, introduce me to people. Anyway, so my direct line manager put in a request for me to be promoted to senior HR manager, which got turned down.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I was told to my face, it was because I was pregnant. Wow. Really? Wow. what but Was it not illegal at that time?
00:10:58
Speaker
go yeah, years ago, years ago. was illegal. And he said it to an HR person as well. So I was like, what's just happened? So, yeah. So what did you say at that point? Well, I was like, I don't know what to do right now.
00:11:18
Speaker
Anyway, I mean, long story short, too late, but I um put put in a complaint and then the response basically came that, oh, he didn't mean it was because I was pregnant, even though that's exactly what he said.
00:11:32
Speaker
um he He said ah that the response came from kind of him slash the business that, oh, no, to be a senior manager, you would need to travel more to the European offices. You would need to do more qualifications, do like the the master's level qualifications and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:11:51
Speaker
Basically all the things that knowing I was just about to have my second child, I was like, well, obviously I'm not going to do that. um So effectively they made it very clear what they felt and thought about me. So yeah, despite having worked there for like seven plus years,
00:12:16
Speaker
I had no no kind of incentives to stay after my second maternity leave because I hadn't had to pay anything back. It was all SMP again.
00:12:28
Speaker
And I knew I was coming back to the same very big job. um But now I had two small children at home instead of just one.
00:12:41
Speaker
ah Plus the commute. etc etc so I just kind of was like right well you know you've made the decision for me so yeah all that time all that effort all that money they had spent investing in my kind of career and my development kind of got flushed away um really for no reason um other than they weren't prepared to wait for me to you know, get back to a place where I would be kind of more willing to do that sort of
Systemic Issues for Women in Career and Family Balance
00:13:10
Speaker
stuff. So, yeah, it was a real shame.
00:13:13
Speaker
um You know, my direct line manager, i have no bad words to say about she was totally like my mentor. She was like who introduced me to HR. um And, you know, great, such a great company. But just unfortunately, that just sort of was quite clear that there was just absolutely no option for me to go back um because I just knew.
00:13:36
Speaker
that they effectively didn't really want me. Short-sighted, isn't it, on their part? they Like you say, they've paid for you, you've got all this experience with their company, you're such a loyal person and you were, you know, dedicated to them for them not to see that, okay, this might be a short stint of your career with them and your time with them that maybe you can't necessarily do all of the things that they're, you know, now expecting you to be able to do for that role, which you were doing beforehand, that, you know, in the long term, they've lost a really great employee. So so short-sighted of them to do that. And i mean, I know this is such a common experience for others,
00:14:14
Speaker
But to hear, in your words, ah you know just how direct they were and their instant reaction to it, was just it just highlights, I guess, the problem that a lot of women face. So, yeah, just sorry to hear that. And that's why, to be honest, I wanted to tell it like relatively honestly because I know that's the whole point of your podcast and and you know the the business you guys are running because there's all this talent that's just being wasted because people can't see beyond everything.
00:14:44
Speaker
this like very short season, effectively very short season that I would have been in for a couple of years before I would be ready to get back onto that again.
00:14:55
Speaker
So it, you know, it's like have a really experienced, really dedicated HR manager that knows the business back to front or start all over again. Okay. Well, you went for start all over again. That's your call, but social sighted.
00:15:11
Speaker
It's just mind boggling. And I mean, from our perspective, it's so incredibly frustrating because in you know in one sense or another, we've been in a similar situation, like with that struggle and that feeling of you were throwing away a highly experienced, highly skilled individual.
00:15:29
Speaker
But from their perspective, it's just stupid business sense because you're just gonna be losing money and spending money on recruiting others if who don't have that level of knowledge that you already knew for that organization. And it's just so incredibly short-sighted. you know It might be a few years of a chapter.
00:15:52
Speaker
um it just doesn't make any sense. And think it really stands out. Like we hear of those big, big numbers, you know, i think it's the 70 something thousand women who are being driven out, you know, the the recent i number from pregnant and screwed and it's getting worse.
00:16:07
Speaker
But hearing those individual stories are so powerful because that is the reality. That is the reality being being told to your face that you're not going to get promoted because you're pregnant.
Finding New Career Paths Post-Maternity
00:16:19
Speaker
and And honestly, it's just outrageous. And before what what you were saying about, know, You know, that it um I can't remember exactly how you worded it, but not realizing the impact that motherhood would have on you and and having that there's so much with it. And, there' you know, there's this whole new identity.
00:16:39
Speaker
And I think all of us are naive to one extent or another of of knowing the impact and how it is going to change us in every way, shape or form. We just kind of think, oh, we'll just keep up our cruise before.
00:16:51
Speaker
And on another level of that, being told, no, you can't progress in your career, like on top of that. And we're going to give you these. And you you you're not even like an, it' it's you were driven out of your your job, but you didn't have to sign like an and NDA or any of that or go to tribe, you know, like, I just could keep on running. I can't.
00:17:13
Speaker
It's just, it's so frustrating to hear
00:17:24
Speaker
So at that point, Katie, so you had decided you were going to leave. Was that during your maternity leave that you weren't going to go back? Yeah, sorry. So, yeah, I sort of pretty much knew during the maternity leave that I wasn't going to go back.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I had this very naive thought of like, oh, well, I'll just find a local HR job that works around the children.
00:17:46
Speaker
LAUGHTER
00:17:50
Speaker
I laugh at that because I had that same feeling. but Oh, I'll just find something local that's part-time. I'm so young.
00:18:00
Speaker
um so yeah i i had this view of like i'll find something locally i'll find something else um and yes lo and behold quite tricky um but i did manage to find something i'll be honest they didn't even they saw my cv and they didn't even want to meet me because they said you're way too senior turned out they were right but I blew them away in my interview and I was just like, I want this. You want me. Like I will be what, you know, I am so in it.
00:18:31
Speaker
I so am in being part time. I really want to be there for my kids more. Like this job was like 20, 25 hours a week. So it was basically, When I first started with them, I condensed it into three days.
00:18:45
Speaker
But then when my eldest left and so sorry my eldest left nursery and started school, swapped that to school hours. So I did like 9.30 2.30. Hey, what a good idea. Four days week. So they were a lovely company, smaller, much more could drive.
00:19:05
Speaker
um they were they were a lovely company much smaller much more local i could drive And don't get me wrong, there's the odd day that there's a problem and you do get stuck in the car. But that was so much less than the like the trains are up the spout, get on the train. You know, it was it was much more manageable to be driving.
00:19:23
Speaker
And um yeah, it was it was part time. However, it was. a great deal less challenging and having said and having believed that that was what I wanted after such a big job I will say that it was quite a shock to the system and I did feel that I had sort of started to slightly atrophy shall we say sort of slightly lose my skills because I wasn't really being pushed in the same way But then COVID happened.
00:19:58
Speaker
And suddenly everybody wanted HR advice.
Pandemic's Impact on Career and Passion
00:20:02
Speaker
i was gone from being like completely underused to being holy, holy moly overwhelmed.
00:20:09
Speaker
I'd have all these people ringing me about furlough and I'm like, guys, I wish I had a direct line to the government to say what they were actually trying to do. But I don't. So I'm kind of guessing along with the rest of you.
00:20:23
Speaker
But all of a sudden I was useful again because I was like translating all of this stuff that was coming from the government. I was kind of sending out um information to clients about like what they needed to know about furlough and, you know, how this was going to work and working on calculations, cetera, cetera. And I was suddenly kind of like re as much as obviously we were all going through this horrendous turmoil and I was so scared and, you know, I felt like we were living in the middle of some kind of like
00:20:53
Speaker
ah horror film but but when you think right back to the start where you know there's no cars on the road and no one left their house and it was like some kind of like zombie apocalypse or something um but you know i was like i'm finally useful again i'm finally being used and um utilized and it kind of really really reinvigorated My kind of, yeah, love for the work, love for HR, love for actually being useful for people and being able to help and support people.
00:21:23
Speaker
and like And I guess that was basically the spark of then going out to move on my own because I was kind of like, you know what?
Starting an HR Consultancy
00:21:30
Speaker
Actually, I'm supporting business's clients.
00:21:36
Speaker
Do I need to support the business's clients? Could I just do that for myself? um So that was sort of the the kind of light bulb boat moment like a lot of people had in COVID. Right.
00:21:47
Speaker
And the other thing as well was, you know, yeah I wasn't commuting half an hour, 45 minutes in the car each way to do effectively exactly the same thing, just sat in somewhere else.
00:22:00
Speaker
um So it it just was as a little bit of a storm, a little bit of a perfect storm that all kind of happened, basically, which was what sort of pushed me out the door of there in the end.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and that part of your story, there's so many layers to that because actually I think like so many others, it sounded like you yeah you had no other choice but to take such a lower job to what you are used to because there was no other opportunity out there that actually properly utilised your skills that you had from before. So, yeah, the fact that you had to go in at that sort of lower level, you essentially, it sounded like you were a bit bored and, you know, but you didn't have any other choice.
00:22:43
Speaker
So you had to do it. And I think then it sounds like You just, I guess, were making do and until the point where actually all of these things came together for then you to be able to create, which is now HRKT.
00:23:04
Speaker
It would be great to know now what well It is like, so you had this light bulb moment. It was a perfect storm. You were able to work from home. You were ah able to be with your kids. You were able to use your brain again and to utilize all of the skills that you had to create HR Katie. Tell us more about what that is and how you sort of do your day-to-day with that now.
00:23:28
Speaker
So HR Katie came about because as I decided to leave my part-time role, ah friend who at the time was running their own business, came to me and said, we've got this big HR issue I could really do with some help.
00:23:43
Speaker
And effectively, they became my first client because they k needed a lot of support and hold-handing. Hold-handing? No, hand-holding.
00:23:54
Speaker
um Through ah big employee issue.
00:24:01
Speaker
When I left... I should just say quickly, because again, I think this is an important point to make for people listening, that I did not set out to become ah business owner when I left my last job.
00:24:15
Speaker
That had not been my intention. I was looking for other part-time jobs. i had started putting my CV out. I was trying to interview we were coming right to the back end of the last lockdown. So like I did give myself a little bit of a break to just be with the kids and not be stressing about work and the juggle, which I still have PTSD about, by the way, just, you know, I think anyone with school aged children will probably feel my pain about the online lessons and all that o hideousness. Anyway. And, um,
00:24:56
Speaker
So yeah, so I was looking for work. It wasn't that I was like, right, I'm going to start my own business and I shall be a small business champion, et cetera, et cetera. It was kind of an accident. And I feel like that's something I do want to kind of say to people that it doesn't start with a grand plan. it just kind of starts with a few kind of circumstances, bit of luck, a bit of kind of everything you know falling into place basically. So yes,
00:25:25
Speaker
I started because a friend came to me and said, please, can you support my business? Which I did. And I started putting out content um mainly on Instagram.
00:25:36
Speaker
and a bit on LinkedIn. And don't get me wrong, to start with, it was screaming into the void. And you know you're just like, hello, who is anyone out there?
00:25:47
Speaker
um But you know kept up the consistency. Because I didn't have loads of client and loads of work, I had time to create all this content. um That was my job, effectively, doing my marketing, which I'd had to learn from scratch, obviously, because I was an HR person.
00:26:03
Speaker
um And then again, I had a bit of luck that someone I knew was following me and said, oh, we don't have any HR in my business at the moment. We could really do with some support. You should speak to our CEO.
00:26:16
Speaker
Well, nearly four, no, three years on, they're still my main client. So, you know, it's like it just sort of worked out so, so well. They were looking for initially it was like a day a week I did for them, like sort of five to ten hours.
00:26:32
Speaker
um And now I do more like sort of 15 to 20. They've taken on an in-house HR team, but I still work to support them. and um And then outside of that, I do my kind of more like passion project stuff, which is working with much smaller businesses, startups, scale-ups.
00:26:55
Speaker
I run an HR subscription service called the HR Hub, which is sort of like hands-on, go to advice for small business owners that usually sort of would think it's sort of much too expensive and too difficult to have an HR person on retainer.
00:27:13
Speaker
So it's that sort of um easy access HR in your back pocket approach. And that's sort of what I do on the days I'm not doing the one to one stuff. And I absolutely love it. I love um helping those smaller businesses.
00:27:28
Speaker
They're so varied, the businesses I work with there. You know, there there's like one of them's a gym. One of them's like a tech company. One of them's like a marketing company. Like it's all totally, totally different businesses.
00:27:41
Speaker
But they're all just nice people who don't want to do the wrong thing by the people that they've employed. They just say, you know, I don't want to get it wrong.
00:27:53
Speaker
Tell me what to do about someone who's about to take paternity leave. I don't want to get it wrong. We need to change this person's contract. Can you help me make sure that we've got them on the right terms and conditions? So it's so great that I can use all that like biz big business knowledge to help these much smaller businesses.
00:28:15
Speaker
Because again, their people, most of them are people that have worked in bigger businesses themselves. So only know their lane. Why would they know about HR? and And I say this to people all the time as well. I'm like, I outsource stuff.
00:28:31
Speaker
Now I can afford to. I outsource a lot of my marketing. I still do my content, but all of my scheduling and the building all the Canva images and stuff, I outsource that to a VA now because I'm not a specialist. It takes me days out of the month to do all of that stuff.
00:28:50
Speaker
So it's it's about sort of like, where can you have those wins as a business owner? Where is your time more valuably spent? Is it valuable for a business owner to spend four hours Googling how do I change someone's terms and conditions when all they need to do is just call me up or send me an email and be like, right, I need to do this. And i'm like, yeah, here you go Instruction manual with said clause.
Self-Employment Challenges and Rewards
00:29:18
Speaker
And they're like, OK, great. You know, it's it's that efficiency of just making everyone's lives better because why... become an expert in absolutely everything. It's just actually not that time efficient.
00:29:32
Speaker
No, absolutely right. I mean, you're right. I mean, we'll hopefully get to the point when we can start to outsource. And we talk about all the jobs that we want to outsource, don't we, Emma? So it sounds like you're just really being really smart in what you are doing, not only in your business, but in what you are encouraging other businesses that you work with to do is to sort of use your brain, use your expert advice in HR, use all of the skills and experience that you have got.
00:29:57
Speaker
and you know work with them to be able to outsource that. And that makes so much sense. And it sounds like, and I ah really like your point that actually you didn't set off to start a business. And I think actually there where all the best businesses start almost, not by accident, but it is those of, like you say, a perfect storm of luck and ah yeah expertise and idea and and those things sort of coming together in the right moment for them to then be accelerated as opposed to you sit down, you think,
00:30:26
Speaker
I want to start a business and figuring out what that business is going to look like. I think the most successful ones are the ones in the way that you started. And it sounds like you've grown into, you know, create a business that really works for you and uses all of the skills and everything that you have got to share with others. And I think it's a really great thing. And,
00:30:46
Speaker
The other thing I think is important to note is that often as parents, we feel, I mean, there's so many who feel like they have no choice. They can't return to their you know career beforehand. They can't find that sort of part-time work. And then the next best thing is almost working for yourself.
00:31:05
Speaker
But that is a really hard thing to do, isn't it? And It's not an easy choice to make because not everybody has you know necessarily got a set of skills or expertise that they can just sort of wrap up into a business and share with others.
00:31:19
Speaker
So it's sort of making that note that actually sometimes that's not necessarily the best choice, but it would be nice if we did have all of these choices. We're just not forced into that that position where we have to create a company.
00:31:31
Speaker
And I'd like to add on to what Amy's saying there, you know, it is absolutely not easy to run a business. And I'd love to know what the day to day looks a little bit like for you. But I just want to go back to kind of what you were saying earlier in taking that role. And, you know, there was a point at which you were kind of feeling, OK, atrophy.
00:31:50
Speaker
is sinking in and and it sounds like you're in a great position now. Like, as you said earlier, like if you're working for a small company, you're setting up your own business. My goodness, are you learning all the time? And, you know, it keeps you on your toes.
00:32:02
Speaker
But also it really just stands out to me that your story and at that point of your career have essentially been driven out taking ah so a job that you desperately wanted and and more importantly needed, but you felt like ah you you do have skills, you know, ah above that.
00:32:20
Speaker
this is the motherhood penalty this is it in black and white and is there any doubt as to why we have a gender pay gap I'm not saying this is the full reason for the gender pay gap but we know it it is a significant um reason for it and also like you were you were saying and and we all oh how we laughed as to looking for it that local part-time role um that's the frustration and and even like timewise do a flexible um index report every year and they break it down by industries you know what are advertised as part-time and hey yourr although it's there's many females in HR it's one of the lowest it's something like six or seven percent roles are part-time and people are desperate so no wonder people are leaving to set up their own business which can be a great you know choice but it it shouldn't be the only one you know to go freelance or set up your own business
00:33:19
Speaker
Now, having said that, because I'm extremely nosy, I would like to know, you know, on a day to day basis, ah how does it look like? Do you have like clear boundaries in place? You know, how do you, I hate the word juggled or the juggle, but the ju the juggle of, you know, being a mother and running your own business. What does it look like?
00:33:41
Speaker
It's, yeah, it's so fun. Sure. All fun. All 100% fun, 100% fun.
00:33:48
Speaker
but No downsides, guys.
00:33:58
Speaker
I will just caveat this answer as well by saying I have recently separated from my husband at the end of last year. So I am now a co-parent as well as a founder myself. So that has been an interesting transition.
00:34:15
Speaker
but There are some weeks where I only do the school run two days a week, which let me tell you, it's quite special.
00:34:27
Speaker
um But yeah, so I'm 50-50 with my husband, ex-husband now. And so, yeah, that has changed life a little bit. Just a little understatement.
00:34:38
Speaker
um But yeah, so the days that I've got the girls um are usually pretty... pretty hectic in the mornings. I am one of those annoying people who gets up at six o'clock and goes to the gym.
00:34:52
Speaker
My gym is in my village though, so I don't have to travel to it. you know what mean? It's like literally two minutes away. um But yes, I um go to the gym early or I'm trying to, on my non-gym days, get up and do a workout on the um the row app, the We Are The She app.
00:35:11
Speaker
My eldest is 10, which sounds quite young, but is very much falling into that tweenager phase already. So dragging her out of bed in the mornings is seriously hard.
00:35:23
Speaker
And yeah, just I can feel myself turning into my own mother of like, why are your shoes not How many times do I have to tell you to put your shoes on?
00:35:35
Speaker
um years ago actually i think it was a couple of years ago I made a reel about like what it like what my morning routine looks like. And it's like, you know, other people very calm. But um I'm like, put your shoes on.
00:35:48
Speaker
The kids saw it and they're like, is this real? Did you actually film this? was like, no, but it could have been, couldn't it? Couldn't it have been real? I would love to have that camera in the hallway, you know, that time day. It would look the same. It's just the same. I know, know. It's just the same every day. And you're like, is it this hard to remember? Anyway, yeah, drag the kitchen like the kids out of bed.
00:36:11
Speaker
Get them to school. And then, yeah, I'm at my desk, usually in my spare room where I'm sitting and talking to you now. I'm very lucky that I have a spare room with a desk that I can actually sit in and work.
00:36:23
Speaker
I treat it pretty much like an office. So I do try and not worry about the house stuff in the day. So like when I go down and make myself lunch, I don't spend all my time like reloading the dishwasher and doing all the washing and stuff like that. I try and sort of treat it like this is my work day.
00:36:40
Speaker
So I wouldn't, if I was at work, I would go and have my lunch and then I would go back to my desk. So I i do try and keep those boundaries that, and you know, sure, there are times that you do have to put the wash on and stuff, but Most of the time I try not to get distracted with house stuff in the day because I know that ah it will just completely derail me.
00:36:59
Speaker
um And then, yeah, on... And then, and yeah, and then I'm sorry. And then I'm working either on client work, so I'm on kind of calls or working on projects for clients or if I'm... um doing stuff for for my own business, for HRKT, it might be, um I do use AI to help me with my content prompts and then sort of, you know, helping me to write some of my content, et cetera. So ah that's what my sort of HRKT days in the business look like, where that's mainly what I'm doing is my sort of marketing, bit financial stuff.
00:37:39
Speaker
That's another side of running your own business that um no one prepares you for. um And then, yeah, and then 2.30 rolls around and everyone else in the rest of the world is coming back from their lunch and getting on with their afternoon. And you're like, no, got go.
00:37:58
Speaker
yeah, then I'm on the school run, picking up the kids. But, you know, tonight, for example, we go to the dentist at four o'clock. Couldn't have done that when I was working in London.
00:38:10
Speaker
ah You know, so there's there's all of these advantages that come with it. And again, I was having a conversation with a friend over the weekend and they said, you know, do you get the Sunday scaries? Like, don't you hate a Sunday night? And I'm like, no, not anymore.
00:38:26
Speaker
Quite like a Monday, like feel quite proactive and like ready to get going on a Monday these days. So um it's just a totally different vibe.
00:38:37
Speaker
Don't get it wrong, you know, no one has a great day every day, but I'm just so much more passionate about what I'm doing. I'm so much more involved with actually, like, making a difference for people.
00:38:53
Speaker
and I suppose it's just that thing of, like, my ambitions for myself look quite different to how I thought they would. I had this view...
00:39:05
Speaker
of, you know, oh, I should scale, i should i should stop the one-to-one stuff and I should be scaling the HR hub and I need to be doing all of that hub stuff and constantly marketing and constantly trying to grow it. And then ah did have a bit realisation talking to a ah ah a friend who is also a coach and we were having a conversation about you know, what I was enjoying. And I realised that, you know, might i go into London one day a week now, one day a week.
00:39:41
Speaker
I quite like that London day now. i go and get my lunch from Marks and Spencers or, you know, Yo Sushi or somewhere grown up.
00:39:52
Speaker
And I sit and talk to adults, I'm saying in inverted commas, but yes, you know, it's other grown ups in an office that I get to go and talk to. And, you know, I get to drink a hot cup of coffee and I get to, you know, be busy and interested and catch up with people.
Career Intentionality and Work-Life Balance
00:40:11
Speaker
And then the rest of the week, yeah, I'm doing it remotely, but I'm still very much like in touch with people. I'm still very like involved with various different projects, etc. But I'm okay with the fact that it gets to 2.30 and I'm like, okay, I'm done now. Bye.
00:40:28
Speaker
And for now... I'm okay with that. They're both still in primary school. The big one is going to secondary school next year. Again, life will probably change again a little bit when that happens.
00:40:40
Speaker
And when they're both in senior school, they'll need me even less. So probably, yes, I can look at sort of scaling a bit more and I can look at investing a bit more in the business, et etc. and And in what scaling might look like under slightly different circumstances.
00:40:54
Speaker
But for now, I feel like it's okay that I'm there for them and... I'm happy with what I'm doing. I'm like, that's lovely.
00:41:06
Speaker
I'm so lucky. And then it's like, should I feel that lucky? But I do. I feel so lucky that I actually like my work and it's given me a balance because I didn't think that was possible.
00:41:22
Speaker
I actually didn't think that was possible in that old job. but to have both. it it I mean, how are you supposed to think that that is possible when when you're going in essentially for 10 hours? And then imagine, you know, thinking of yourself when you when you wrap up at 2 to 30, that in your previous job you would have been, i mean, I know that you would have been commuting back, but that's another few hours on top of them seeing your child. And it's such a short chapter.
00:41:48
Speaker
um But I love what you were saying before about being really intentional about what you want. And before you were thinking, okay, I need to grow and I need to scale, but actually to sit back and be aware, well, hang on, we don't just have one job. Actually, we're gonna have three or four or five and a night under night shift but to take that into account. And that's gonna have an impact on our health, on our physical health and our mental health.
00:42:15
Speaker
i And also what you were saying there about that Monday feeling. I feel like if you are doubtful about the position that you are in, If you don't look forward to a Monday or you dread Monday, I remember I was in a really toxic work environment years ago. And I remember having to bake like and I'm talking like professional level, professional level. It was terrible.
00:42:40
Speaker
ah But like really the most complex cakes. And my mother telling me like, Emma, if if you're getting this much of a Sunday scary that you have to spend. five hours baking on a Sunday just to get your mind off going into work the next you know morning, then you need to get out of that job. And she was dead right.
00:42:59
Speaker
like And I think that you know that seems to be a common theme, Amy, doesn't it? Like of people who are talking to are like, oh, Mondays are actually... pretty great and I can I can be intentional about the career that I carve out it's just frustrating that our current system doesn't allow that because the part-time you know those high quality part-time roles are so little whereas ah you know It doesn't seem to be that hard of a thing to do to create those part time opportunities.
00:43:31
Speaker
No, i don't think so. What i will say that's quite interesting is that I was approached on LinkedIn maybe six months ago by someone in a local 20 minutes down the road.
00:43:43
Speaker
And they said, we're looking for a part time HR or senior HR manager. to work, you know, in the business, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, oh my God, if you'd have sent me this three years ago, would have bitten your hand off.
00:43:56
Speaker
I would have just like absolutely bitten your hand off for it. But I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. Really, really in a great place with the businesses as it is at the moment.
00:44:11
Speaker
And I may not run it forever. And I'm kind of okay with that. But i I am at peace with what I'm doing at the moment. And I think that's something that is something we don't really talk about. that Why is ambition always to go bigger, to go harder, to go up this imaginary ladder when actually the ambition that I've got is to be happy in my job and my life?
00:44:41
Speaker
pretty bloody nice right yes and yeah you're telling your children you have to be miserable ah yes we I all I often have that same feeling and I think what am I doing this for sometimes when it's really hard and it feels like you know and maybe the hours are longer than I want all of these things and I think what am I doing this for and we have that too and we don't really about you know growing the business and doing this and doing it faster and quicker and bigger But actually for us right now, we are doing this so that we can enjoy our family outside of our work. And we are we are so grateful, like you said, to be able to work these five-hour work days and we've created them for ourselves.
00:45:21
Speaker
But, you know, we want other people to feel that that too, that actually in this very short season of our long careers, that we want to be able to enjoy work and enjoy our family. Because what's the point of having a family if you can't see them at the end of each day and And enjoy them.
00:45:38
Speaker
So what really love hearing your say today, Katie, is that it sounds like you've created a a life for yourself where you've essentially you've created and taken control over it. So, you know, you've realized the things that you need. You need to go to the gym in the morning.
00:45:52
Speaker
And actually, in your working day, you you need to ignore the house because although you're working in it, actually, it's there. but you need to work you need to focus on what you need to do in those sort of five hours without the kids you can do the washing with the kids right they can be there and you put some washing on but and actually that was a big change for me is that I thought I could never work from home in the sense where god I can't rest when the house is a mess but let's face it the house is a mess all the time when you have kids all the So you kind of have to ignore it to be able to get on with life and work.
00:46:23
Speaker
So, yeah, I really like that. I like that you sort really do boundary it. You boundary the things and put time around the things that are important to you. And it sounds you've created such a lovely life and career for yourself. And I'm really, yeah, you can hear that. You can hear that sort of contentment, which is a really refreshing thing to hear, I think.
00:46:41
Speaker
I mean, it's not to say it's not without trial and error, And it's not without kind of very steep learning curves. um Because, you know, when we when we were at home all the time initially in the pandemic, like, it was just mind boggling.
00:46:58
Speaker
And we were so not used to it. um So it's it's learning. It has been partly learning these things of like, you're not there to do the dishwasher when you work in your working day.
Adapting to Change and Finding Joy
00:47:10
Speaker
and and And yeah, and the the the early gym thing, like,
00:47:15
Speaker
I used to be, I used to do it when I got back from the school run at like nine or whatever. But then that meant that I wasn't really starting my working day till like gone 10. And I'm like, that's just not sensible, like very productive. And now the kids are a bit bigger. You know, what I am again, sort of talking about these seasons, but like, yes, I have to drag them out of bed, but it's not like they need me to dress them.
00:47:39
Speaker
anymore or like feed them anymore they you know they are much more self-sufficient in that way so I don't have the same thing where it used to be well I get up early so I get myself ready and then I've got that time to get them ready like we can both just get ready together at the same time it's not without its push and pull guys can't lie like you know they're very wonderful annoying and small humans that I have raised.
00:48:09
Speaker
Aren't they all? Oh God, I love them so much. The little wonders. But you know, yeah, and then obviously I've had some like personal stuff going on as well. So that's just not been without its challenges, but the days I do have them and the weekends I do have them.
00:48:31
Speaker
I love that I can really lean into it and be there and be switched on with them. And ah don't have to worry about but stuff particularly, you know, outside of that, because that's, that is what has worked so well. So yeah. um Like said, jacket all in guys work for yourselves. It's absolute paradise. All the time.
00:48:54
Speaker
or I know. I guess that point is, isn't it? now I think when you're you're in a business, you're working for somebody else, you kind of, because of the way the working world is, there is very few, so there is such a lack of flexibility. So you can't sort do this trial and everything. You can't figure out what works because by the time you have figured out what works, they're on to, you know, the kids are on to a next phase of their lives and you're on to a next routine or whatever. So you kind of need that flexibility, don't you, to be able to figure out what works for you, to be able to,
00:49:24
Speaker
juggle it all and you know balance it and all of those things so you need that time and space be able to do that and in your own business of course you can and when you're working somebody else it's a lot harder but it's okay so okay so how can we get businesses to let us have the autonomy and trust us so that we are working in a way that works for us whilst you know doing the job for them feel like that's a whole other podcast, guys, but, you know, I'm more than willing to delve into that.
Flexibility in Employment
00:49:53
Speaker
Do you know what? I i think we we literally could and should delve into that, you know, in in it in another podcast. Because I was thinking, like, in my previous role, which was really positive, um I'm in it in a funny place right now in the middle of a sabbatical, but, like, where I have a really amazing manager who does promote autonomy because she does trust me.
00:50:20
Speaker
So I do have those little experiments and I also had to learn the hard way. And and ultimately we do learn learn the hard way. That's how we learn we're human. And I realize everything in life is an experiment and like whether that's parental styles or the way that we work.
00:50:36
Speaker
So I think it can be equivalent to not, I know certainly working for yourself is going to give you that that level of flexibility. But if you have the right manager,
00:50:46
Speaker
in the in the right organization that and and have that level of autonomy etc etc you will certainly also be able to experiment what works best for you throughout your working day um and and you know on on the on the same level but and um so what we just need to show is just find more of those employers and managers and flexible you know organizations um And but I think the point to be made as well, though, Emma, is that it it isn't just about the employers being flexible.
00:51:16
Speaker
It's the employees as well. So, like, that's the one thing that sometimes is missed. and maybe this is me getting on my HR high horse as well a little bit, but like the whole port the whole point of flexibility is that it goes both ways. So like, yes, the employer is more than happy that you're there for pickup or you're there for the sports day or whatever.
00:51:36
Speaker
But they also know that if you haven't finished your project, that you will then, make sure that you log back on at our later point to make sure it all gets done.
00:51:47
Speaker
That's the give and take that I think some people have slightly forgotten about because like they want it all their own way. and I think that's probably what puts employers off being flexible because they only see the flexibility coming to the employee and they don't feel like it's actually reciprocated. That's unfortunately some of the issues I'm dealing with with some of the clients I'm working with at the moment.
00:52:10
Speaker
It's not that they're not willing to be flexible and they have been very flexible, but there are sometimes these real push pull things of like, well, hang on, when does this stop? Because when does it start swinging back the other way that people say, well, yes, you know, like I will leave the office at 4.30. So I'm back for pickup, but I appreciate that I will need to log on and just make sure that I haven't missed anything before the end of the day. It's like, no, it's 4.30.
00:52:35
Speaker
all thirty I'm gone. It's my time now. It's like, okay but so there's there is this real push pull going on as I said whole new podcast but then there is so there this is why you know we end up um this is why we end up in these situations because because it it is a difficult balancing act basically Yeah, it really is. And I think from an employee's perspective, there's kind of two things on that. And I would say I'm definitely the sort of person, I don't know if Amy would agree with me, I think I've gotten much, much better, but i previously was a workaholic and I would work and work and work and work and not know my own boundaries.
00:53:15
Speaker
So I would find it struggle to stop. And I completely agree. It does need to be a two-way system. um And I was a really good ah example of that. So when I had global calls, I would be setting them up at eight zero in the morning. I would do that because I know that was the only time that we could do that in Singapore or whatever.
00:53:34
Speaker
Then I would go, but then I'd know i could be, you know, you it's give and take. That's what it is. But if you can have that clearly boundaried level of autonomy, then you're going to get top talent.
00:53:46
Speaker
And one of the reasons why we could keep on talking about it, it is such a challenge. and and And really, we've got this whole new work landscape created in a sense from the pandemic, where we've got that mixture of hybrid and remote and flexible time that we're still trying to figure it out. So
Reflecting on Career Lessons
00:54:05
Speaker
I can only imagine from a HR perspective and an employer perspective,
00:54:09
Speaker
what a mind feels it is. um So I think those are some really, really valid points about flexible working. and and And I think it's really valid to say from employer's perspective, the challenges that they face also.
00:54:29
Speaker
So that note, let's move on to the the final questions we ask everybody, which is, so if you were to look back, Katie, on your life and career, is there anything you would change or do differently with everything that you know now?
00:54:42
Speaker
That is a difficult question, isn't it? Because obviously one thing has always kind of led to another. So i suppose the only thing i I probably would say is that I probably should have left my last job a bit sooner because Um, and I probably would have left that job sooner if it wasn't for COVID, to be honest, because I had started looking for other jobs by the time COVID hit.
00:55:06
Speaker
Um, so I think, yeah, I probably did stay too long there, but like a lot of people, everything just sort of went on very strange for a good year plus. So, um, but as I said, you know, it's, it's always hard to kind of,
00:55:24
Speaker
regret certain things because I don't know if it would have then presented me with the same opportunities to start my own business that it that it ended up with. So, yeah, I think that's probably the only one where I have a little bit of like a not sure. But um I mean, yeah, I feel like I don't know if I'm a great example, but yeah, I feel like there's been so many just like good opportunities that came my way that I just sort of took hold of.
00:55:53
Speaker
can't say there was this like mega grand plan at any point but sometimes you've just got to kind of lean into it and go with it I think I think you're a great example actually the opposite because you did you just saw of these opportunities and you took them with both hands and you you know you did qualification then you saw you know you took the opportunity in COVID and things that you could do there so I think actually you're a really great example of And don't think, unless, you know, you have a plan from when you're 17 and know exactly what career you're going to do for the rest of your life, which I think nowadays is not, you know, what people do, is it? You know, people change their careers often. So I don't think anyone has a grand plan.
00:56:31
Speaker
And I think actually for us, you know, reflecting back is more to, you know, To think actually we did alright. And where I am now is pretty damn good. So yeah enjoy that. Because you deserve it.
00:56:42
Speaker
um So finally then. so there's one thing you could do. ah Say to yourself tomorrow. What would it be?
00:56:51
Speaker
o Be gentle. Be kind. To yourself. Everyone loves a tryer.
00:57:04
Speaker
I do try very hard. um
00:57:09
Speaker
ah do try and, you know, keep everyone entertained where possible. no um Yeah, go gently, I suppose, is is the answer that, you know, it it doesn't always have to be the 10K months, the big,
00:57:31
Speaker
career the next step on the ladder like it's okay to enjoy what you're doing and live in your season and experience it as it happens and then yeah like we said about those opportunities when they come around when the time is right then grab it with both hands but don't stress too much about not getting there immediately because like those people that you hear about that do that those are the unicorns like that's not the norm and I think that is the sort of downside of social media etc etc that you feel like that that's all you hear about is these success stories
00:58:19
Speaker
But actually there's there are the people like us that are just doing the do getting on with it, living their lives and and like doing all
Conclusion and Farewell
00:58:28
Speaker
right. So, you know, that's okay.
00:58:32
Speaker
and it really is. Absolutely. You are definitely doing all right, Katie. So thank you so much for sharing all of your story with us. We really appreciate it. and We absolutely loved it.
00:58:44
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It was so a lovely to chat, Katie. Thank you so much for chatting to us. Thanks. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye.