Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
I'm Harleen, I gained a son with Autism and lost my career
221 Plays5 months ago
This is the story of Harleen, who after becoming the default parent to a son with Autism, has struggled to maintain her career as a recruitment manager ever since.
After only part of her story was aired BBC Panorama documentary about working from home, we wanted to share her full story, including why remote work is so important for parents, what it means to sacrifice your career for your family, and the loss of identity that comes with it.
It was a hard one to listen to, but we hope reassures those who feel the same, that you’re not alone in this.
Hear more stories at @fivehourclub on Instagram.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Harleen's Story
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, I'm Amy. And I'm Emma. And this is the 5-Hour Club Podcast, where we navigate life between the school runs.
00:00:22
Speaker
This is a story of Harleen, who is an experienced recruitment manager and has been struggling to maintain her career since having her two children and finding out her son has autism. After only part of her story was aired in the BBC Panorama documentary, we decided to share her full story, including how she lost her job whilst pregnant and the difficulties she's had in finding worse as becoming the defunct parent to a neurodiverse child.
00:00:45
Speaker
This is a story of what it means to sacrifice your career for your family and the loss of identity that comes with it.
Impact of Autism Diagnosis on Career
00:00:50
Speaker
This was a hard one for us to listen to, but we hope it reassures all of those who feel the same that you're not alone in this.
00:01:03
Speaker
Hello, hello. Hello. Hi, Harleen. Hello. hi there. so you are a mum of two. You've got a boy who's five and a girl who is just one and a half, so which is quite a nice size gap. But when you first became a parent, you went back to work full time as a recruitment manager and your son was then diagnosed with autism. Can you tell us what that was like going back to work and then finding out the diagnosis and how that had an impact?
Pregnancy Discrimination and Job Loss
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, so... um When I actually initially moved from the United States, and I found it hard to jump back into my career here in the UK. And when I officially did, found out I was pregnant and unfortunately actually got fired.
00:01:49
Speaker
um And yeah, so I actually had my pregnancy. had my pregnancy without a job. Wow.
00:02:00
Speaker
And I found that the hardest. um So actually got fired. And that was purely because I had to tell my manager i was pregnant. Wow. Okay.
00:02:11
Speaker
And this was the the manager in the US? No. So i um I moved back from the US, found a job here as a ah recruiter. And it was a really small company. self He was self-employed. It was his business.
00:02:27
Speaker
And yeah, I had too much sickness and I had to come out to him and say, listen, I'm pregnant. And within a week, he basically said, oh yeah, by the way, here's HR. You're not performing. Toodaloo. um So it hit me hard. i I knew it was because of the pregnancy. I wasn't going to be there for his jobs, for what he wanted. um But at that time, my husband basically said, you know what, take this as respite, rest, enjoy your pregnancy.
00:02:53
Speaker
But that's where the worries start because you're like, oh, my God, I'm pregnant. I've got a child on the way. I've got so much to provide for.
Balancing Career and Autism Care
00:03:00
Speaker
um I actually didn't go back to work until my son was around two.
00:03:06
Speaker
And um he actually started showing signs that he was quite different from 18 months. It was literally like a light switch. um He was fine. He was meeting his milestones perfectly.
00:03:20
Speaker
He was talking, saying all his colours until 18 months. He just went mute, um started tiptoe walking, started stimming, hand flapping, wouldn't respond to his name.
00:03:33
Speaker
um It was a total different child at that moment. um And I know I remember speaking to the health visitors and they were saying, oh, well, his autism. And I was like, oh no, that's not my child.
00:03:45
Speaker
Don't know what you're talking about. No, I was like, I don't want intervention. No, let's delay it. And I actually did delay it because I was in denial um until he got to around two and I said, yeah, he's still nonverbal.
00:03:58
Speaker
So I actually had to start that process. And then I just, I was like, i need to find a job. ah think you kind of think, oh, here comes your son that may be autistic.
00:04:11
Speaker
Financially, oh my gosh, what pressures are we going to have? So I went out, um I got a job but um and it was a great job. It was for a global organization. i was their talent acquisition partner.
00:04:23
Speaker
at that time, i still wasn't in acceptance. I was able to say my child may be autistic, but here in the UK, they don't diagnose until they're four years old. ah So, but yeah, was it challenging? 100%. He didn't understand why mummy was disappearing. He didn't understand why I couldn't be there. He was not able to understand why his routines had to change. I had to get a nanny to come over to look after him when I was working. um And initially i started this job part-time, but I was like, oh, I need to go full-time. And I took that that silly leap of going full-time
00:05:02
Speaker
um And that's, I struggled the most, but you you need to go full time when you've got a child. ah These diagnoses, they're not cheap because it's tiptoe walking. i had to get a lot more stable shoes for him. So I had to pay for Timberlands.
00:05:18
Speaker
You know, kids, beat they grow so fast. In six months, they're onto the next shoe size. So I had to supply all that. And here I am full time working. Yeah, it was a challenge.
00:05:30
Speaker
um I think it wasn't until I've had my daughter um and he's received his official diagnosis where I'm like, I can't do full time. I can't keep putting him on the back burner and seeing people around me. They're not able to contain him or meet his routines or his needs just as much as I can.
00:05:49
Speaker
And that he actually solely relies on me. Um, so my decision of having to have to be part-time, I have to be selfish and I have to keep knocking myself on the head and saying, Oh, and you have to let go of that career.
00:06:00
Speaker
You can't be both. Um, you have to be full-time with your child and part-time with your career.
Isolation and Support in Motherhood
00:06:07
Speaker
So that was my journey with the, with his initial diagnosis.
00:06:12
Speaker
I mean, goodness. And what, what a journey and actually, you know, Even just that initial being let go because you're pregnant. I mean, you knew it. That was the reason they couldn't say that, but you knew that.
00:06:25
Speaker
So that, what impact did that have on you initially going into your pregnancy? I was, i was raging. um But at that time, everyone just kept telling me, Harleen, don't take it further. Focus on your pregnancy. It's just going to end up causing too much stress. And I did.
00:06:42
Speaker
And, you know, he got off lightly, I would say. because now if that was me, you wouldn't have gotten off with that. ah But that time, because it was my first pregnancy, and you get the fears of, you don't know what could happen with stress.
00:06:59
Speaker
Did it take a toll on me? It took a toll because now when I look back, I could have been working and being pregnant and just enjoying that because I got that chance on my second little one.
00:07:11
Speaker
And I enjoyed being pregnant and sharing that with my teammates, even though it was remote, It was the best feeling. Everyone's asking, hey, you okay? Hey, yeah, go to your appointment. How was it? Show us the ultrasound.
00:07:22
Speaker
You have that family there. But back then i was alone. So I was just stuck home, pregnant and nothing to look forward to. And you don't know what the future is going to bring. At that moment, the future's dark.
00:07:35
Speaker
ah There is no end to it. And I actually believed there wasn't an end for me until he was two. it It was a hard two years. And I feel like now with what's going on with my career and having a second one, I'm having to repeat that now.
00:07:51
Speaker
But I think I'm a bit more stronger because my son has made me strong with his diagnosis.
00:07:59
Speaker
It sounds like you've been on such a journey and I know that we all had this journey and we're all trying to navigate the juggle, but I feel like it's like twofold because you really do have to consider what are these extra financial implications, the emotional support that is needed.
00:08:16
Speaker
um you know So I ah find it really interesting that you realized, okay, I need to go full-time for the financial reasons. No, I need to go part-time. And then what really struck me is when you said that, no, you need to let go of your career.
00:08:29
Speaker
So when you when you say that, I'd love to know, like when you're, let's say, working that part-time role, do you view it as in you're going to do it for like a chapter and that you're doing a role that not necessarily is one that, you know, ideally you would be doing or that you could potentially go back in the future?
00:08:50
Speaker
um i just love to get to know your views on this because, know, as you as I'm sure that you're aware, we you know, we feel very passionate about like having the idea of not having it all, but but being able to have these part time roles, but that are you were also maintaining your careers.
00:09:07
Speaker
So I just yeah, I'd love to explore that little bit. ah I think about this actually every day. i don't think with my son, not for even the near future, can I go back full time right now?
00:09:20
Speaker
um I don't know right now he's five, And I'm already thinking about high school. Maybe when he's in high school, um things might change. But again, that's that's a long time away.
00:09:33
Speaker
So definitely not thinking about full time, I can't do it.
Challenges of Part-Time Work and Career Stagnation
00:09:37
Speaker
ah He has to have a specific routine. He knows when he comes home, what his routine is. You step out of that and that throws him really off the scale. ah Yeah, the financial needs are there, but I don't think that's as important anymore. um ah think I've come to that point in life.
00:09:56
Speaker
I can't, but when you search for these roles, what am I finding? Entry level roles. Even after I had my little girl and I got made redundant, I took on two roles that just weren't worth it. One was I had to be self-employed, wasn't getting any finances, but was sitting in front of a laptop.
00:10:14
Speaker
And I thought, no, can't do it. The other one was commission again, sitting in front of a laptop and not making that commission as promised. I can't do it anymore. I've tried it and it's not worth it. It's not worth my sanity.
00:10:26
Speaker
So will I have to give up a decent career? 100%. I think I'm always going to have to stay at the bottom of the ladder. That's what I believe. And that's what I'm being shown right now.
00:10:37
Speaker
Will I be able to go up my career ladder? Not yet. Maybe after seven, eight years. But again, at that time, people take into prospect your age.
00:10:48
Speaker
They're going to look at my age and then say, Oh, no, we don't want that when we can get a younger one. And that's that's facts. Since I've moved back from the United States, I haven't been able to climb up the career ladder in the UK again.
00:11:02
Speaker
That's taken a hard knock on me. um People just see it as two different qualifications when it isn't. Talent acquisition is the same globally, but they don't see that. um And now when you have kids, again, they knock you back down.
00:11:15
Speaker
And you're backed out. It's literally playing snakes and ladders all the time with your career and your family life. And is it is it because, like us, that resonates so much with just having those entry-level roles? It's so unbelievably frustrating that that is the crux of it, that the majority of part-time roles are entry-level apprenticeships, you know, im in in many industries that we absolutely need, but we also need those more senior positions.
00:11:44
Speaker
So are are you finding in your particular industry, which is recruitment, that it is... very difficult to progress and move up the ranks in a part-time role. And at the same time, those roles aren't there.
00:11:58
Speaker
not They're not there. um And if they are there, they're telling you to, you have to come to the office or they're at a distance. What employers don't understand when you are the default parent, you're there to pick up your child from school. My daughter's currently doing part-time at nursery. I have to be there for pick up.
00:12:15
Speaker
Because why? Because my husband's now the breadwinner, right? He's got to go out and he's got to work. I can't do it because no one's giving me that chance. So I've got to stay close to home. If I get a call from nursery or school saying my kid needs to be picked up because they're unwell, well, hey, I need to make sure I can get there.
00:12:31
Speaker
Not where I'm an hour away and my child's health has deteriorated. ah They don't provide you those high level roles. I'm not finding recruitment manager or talent acquisition managers part time. Hey, work remotely.
00:12:45
Speaker
No, it's come to office, lead your team and come three times a week and two days from home. That's what you're being thrown at. There is no consideration that a female, you are naturally made that default parent.
00:12:59
Speaker
It is not a choice. You just made it. And at the same time, you want that career. But who's helping you? Who's advertising that? No one out there.
00:13:10
Speaker
No one understands it apart from the women going through it. Employees don't because they see you with the pound sign over your head. Can you give them that pound sign? Are you earning them that?
00:13:21
Speaker
They don't care about nothing else.
Remote Work and Workplace Flexibility
00:13:24
Speaker
I mean, it just highlights the importance that actually we need to give women choices, don't we? There are just, when you like you say, somebody needs to be around at home, somebody needs to be able to be flexible, and often it's the woman because maybe they've taken that time initially or the husband earns more money or whatever it is.
00:13:42
Speaker
Somebody needs to be around because there is such a lack of childcare and all of those things. Yet that means that we just have no choice for it. And then we can't carry on our career because the roles are not there for us to do that part-time.
00:13:53
Speaker
So I can really feel, i understand your frustration completely. And I can see that it's just not something that you've wanted to do, but you've you've done because you're putting your family first. You're putting your son's needs first, your daughter, and that is so important, but that's overriding what your needs are, which is a really hard thing.
00:14:15
Speaker
thing to do. So I think if nothing else, hopefully you know that you're doing the right thing by them. But if you can find a way to get you that career progression in the future, that's what we're aiming for, right? And it's kind of like, like you say, the employees don't get it. They are often men. They're at the top.
00:14:34
Speaker
they don't get They don't have this problem. So why are they going to forge a new way? They're not. So it's it's for us to do, and it's a really hard thing for us to do.
00:14:49
Speaker
did sign up to that infamous BBC panorama about why you know going back to the office is not such a good thing and so I would love to know you didn't really get to share your story as part of that which is why i we wanted to share it today and I would love to know then for you why remote working is so important what would it does it bring to your family to be able to be there for them So I initially did this documentary because i know so many that are going through it.
00:15:20
Speaker
ah Remote working is crucial. I need to be readily available, um especially for my son. No one gets him like I do. No one can provide for him. So when I do the school pickup and I bring him home, it's me that has to be present.
00:15:34
Speaker
I can't you know travel from an office, go get him, come back, do his stuff. Everything needs to be set up before I even bring him home. um So to do BBC Panorama, it was to put that voice out there that there are women like me, mothers like me, we have other needs and other little people that rely on us.
00:15:53
Speaker
um Being remote, it does work. My past two employments have been remote um and it's worked amazing. But unfortunately, both of them, I got made redundant.
00:16:04
Speaker
um And you know, when you work from home, you can still provide for your kids. I know I could take a 15 minute break, put on the load of laundry. My, my son's addicted to his muslin cloth still. So I need to constantly keep washing those.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I know he'll always have a pile there, but being at home allows me to do that. if I'm in the office, he'll run out and you know what? I'll have the meltdown that I'll have to deal with. But at the same time, when you get to work from home, you're being you as well.
00:16:31
Speaker
I'm stepping away from being a mother. I get to be Harleen. Um, It works. I just, I think that's why I wanted to be on BBC Panorama, to say it works.
00:16:42
Speaker
It's possible. But as we all know, BBC Panorama took a whole different twist. That story did not go according to support working from home and The picture, my my daughter was obviously in BBC Panorama. She wasn't meant to be. She actually was unwell that day.
00:16:59
Speaker
So she made her guest appearance. But again, that showed the reality that she was unwell on the day of filming. And unfortunately, she had to be there with me. ah And I know the film crew would be up to see it. She was so clingy.
00:17:12
Speaker
But that's what happens. But if I had that career working from home, I would still be able to work with her playing next to me. She'll be able to see I'm there. um no It's not that I'm not productive. I'm there.
00:17:26
Speaker
Well, this is it. And it we know how productive, if not more productive, if we can do it in a space where we can just get on. We're not wasting time going back and forth from the office. We're doing all the things we need. And let you say, setting up our lives in a way that means that we can be there for our kids. We can do the things that they need, as well as getting the most out of our workday and then carry on progressing in our career if we can find those roles that actually make it work. and i guess What the panorama highlighted is actually, wool it about well, what it didn't highlight was the how and why it works so well. And actually, by forcing people back into the office, you're then cunning out a huge part of the workforce again, women, parents, who...
00:18:10
Speaker
you know working from home really does work for them. So it was such a shame that your story didn't and your voice didn't really get shared in a way which promoted the benefits of it. Because like you say, even having your daughter there showcased that and they missed that.
00:18:26
Speaker
And they did. And for anyone who hasn't seen the BBC Panorama documentary, ultimately it was about flexible working and and the return to office mandate. And What we found particularly frustrating is that it it highlighted like some of the benefits of flexible working, for example, an opening scene of of a man in a golf of course, because that's the number one advantage of flexible working.
00:18:50
Speaker
and you And you had, you know, a couple of people like Jolie Braley from Pregnant and Screwed, who's amazing, and Harleen. But what was so frustrating is that the the some of the most crucial benefits of working remotely are exactly like you say, Harleen, who is the default parent the majority of the time?
00:19:10
Speaker
It's the mothers, it's the women. And 50% of the population are women and the majority of us become mothers.
Barriers to Flexible Work for Parents
00:19:18
Speaker
But yet we are so not represented in that documentary.
00:19:22
Speaker
And ah so it's just so incredibly frustrating because you are such a good representative for so many different reasons, being the default parent, being the mum, but also being the mum of a child who has special educational, you know, additional needs.
00:19:37
Speaker
So again, i It just really stands out to me that you you you need to be there even more so to to be there for your son to create and establish that routine.
00:19:49
Speaker
And it's just annoying you didn't get more airtime because it does not it does not reflect our society, you know. You know what? There was a lot of things said. um My friend was actually there on the day of filming, um helping me um with my little one.
00:20:05
Speaker
And she was like, well, you know what? You said this, that wasn't there. Maybe we said this and that wasn't there. It was so much stuff that was cut off. And it all that highlighted was, yes, um this is what i'm looking for.
00:20:17
Speaker
And here I am going on a stroll with my daughter. But what about the struggles of me losing my identity? That was the main thing is I've lost who I am. We did not focus on that. We also, i mean, there's a there's a whole load of SEND community moms that would understand that, hey, I need to be home because I do have a child with special additional needs.
00:20:39
Speaker
I do need to support him. I was fortunate enough in my previous employment, my manager understood when she could hear my son screaming outside the door when I was full-time and pregnant, she understood because I explained that he is autistic and I always used to get support saying, okay, don't worry about it.
00:20:56
Speaker
But these are the struggles that come when you have that child there and you're working full time. And this is the whole reason why i was trying to say, this is why I need to go part time. Let me be there for my child.
00:21:08
Speaker
um i mean, we already know what's in the news now. They're cutting back on SEND kids. They're not providing it a lot for SEND. Councils are saying, hey, we don't have the funding for them.
00:21:19
Speaker
And that's that. And that's another fight. So imagine a mother that has that child and still wants a career and needs a career to support that child's needs. My son is um addicted to his tablet.
00:21:33
Speaker
that That thing's on charge 24 seven, that battery's draining. I'm having to replace that often. How can I replace that if I don't have that finances? Well, this is it it. It shows that actually, if they're cutting funding from SEND, if they're not giving you what you need financially and the support that you need to be able to support your son with additional needs, then what else are meant to do? You need to go back to work.
00:21:56
Speaker
But if the job's not there, how are you meant to do that? So ah you are you currently looking for work now? What is your... I'm looking for work and I'm doing it daily, but You know what I've realized? And a lot of friends who are now in the process about being made redundant, they now come up to me and say, oh you know what, Harleen, you're so right.
00:22:15
Speaker
What's happening is you're applying for a job, you're not getting the response. Or you're applying for a job that does meet your criteria, you have the experience, and you know what? You're getting rejected. Why?
00:22:26
Speaker
Because you're not meeting their criteria. You cannot, I know that employers say you can request flexible working from the start, but no, you can't. Because in their mind, they've already eliminated you. Well, this is the point, and this is where we're really passionate about, because, it's you know, yes, you can request this for flexible working, but at what point do you do that? Do you do that before you put your application in? Do you do that interview?
00:22:48
Speaker
Do you do that once you've got the position? And we've heard from other parents who actually wanted to do Panorama that said, I got the position, and then I asked for flexible working, and then it got revoked.
00:22:59
Speaker
So do you ask then? Or do you ask once you're in your company, you've worked a bit, you've had to do the full-time thing, and then, you know, they say, oh, yes, you can... request flexible working, but they can still say no. So then you're in a position where you're stuck and you either make it work full time and do the juggle and do all of those things and essentially, and and eventually you might then fall out of the workplace because actually it doesn't work for you.
00:23:21
Speaker
or then you don't get that position in the first place. So at what point are you meant to ask for this flexible work? And that for us is why we like our posts to be so transparent and clear so that actually parents know what they're going up for. They know it's a flexible role. They know it can be up to these many hours. do They know the actual salary for those hours.
00:23:40
Speaker
It's a case of taking down those barriers so that parents know that the flexibilities are given they you know They don't need to be scared that they're up against full-time potential employees because let's face it, and you know this in the work that you do, if you've got two candidates, one of them's been offering full-time or one of them's offering part-time, even if that part-time person is fellow qualified, the hiring manager is probably more likely to take the full-time person, even if they're less experienced.
00:24:07
Speaker
which is completely wrong, completely biased, but that's the world we're living in. So what are we meant to do? We are completely stuck. There are no options. I don't know what the answer is. i Well, I do. i hope it's what we're doing. Amy.
00:24:22
Speaker
Well, I hope it's what we're doing, but it's really hard to find the employers that get that, right, and really want to do the right thing by parents and see the benefit that they're bringing to the table. Yeah, I would still like to meet an employer like that today, but...
00:24:36
Speaker
I would say it's always best to put that clean cut when you speak to the employer, when you start an application, because you know what? The only person that will face that fire in the end is you.
00:24:47
Speaker
Because like you said, you could go full time and then put that request in and hey, you're back to square one finding a job. I personally just put it out there. If going to reject me, you're going to reject me. And I actually made that point on Panorama.
00:25:00
Speaker
With exactly what you said, if I'm go requesting part-time and someone's full-time, they're taking the full time. Even though they could do the same job role and get two part-timers and job share that role. Yeah.
00:25:11
Speaker
And they didn't air that. But that's a point. Employees should consider that. its it It's a completely valid point. Like, why not get two fresh heads who are extremely productive and, let's face it, quite frankly, grateful for that opportunity to be trusted and to be flexible.
00:25:32
Speaker
Like, I think, you know, on the flip side, it's so needed.
Advocating for Parental Support and Shared Responsibilities
00:25:37
Speaker
but ah but employers, they don't know what they're missing out on equally. You know, it's it' not just us.
00:25:46
Speaker
needing, not just wanting, but needing these career opportunities for so many different reasons, employers, you're missing a trick. Like if you're going and you're going to get like the similar sort of candidate.
00:25:58
Speaker
I'm sorry, but the you know, the recruitment is set up in a way Like that, okay, great. So from 28, from the ages of 28 to maybe 30 or 32, well past, once we become mothers and fathers, we still want to have a career.
00:26:13
Speaker
we didn't We didn't do all this training. We didn't do all these qualifications and this experience to to have babies and then to never work again or to work in a part-time and to go backwards. But for me, it's so frustrating that I only realized that when I became a mother, like that's the reality.
00:26:29
Speaker
That's my rant over. There's always one rant. It's so true. You don't think that when you become a mother that you would actually face this until you actually become a mother.
00:26:41
Speaker
And then society is a whole different game. You see all those demons come out and you're like, oh, I didn't expect that. But I'm sorry, but the movies show a whole different life. Like mothers juggling the laundry, the clothes, the dropping of the school.
00:26:56
Speaker
Hey, I need that superpower because I can't do it. But I can promise you this. Give me what I want. Give me what the role I want. Give me part-time. Give me the flexibility.
00:27:06
Speaker
Remote working. And I'm a great employee. But you have to give that employee that chance to show it. Because in the long run, I would stay with your organization. But a full-timer that has the opportunity to be gone, they're gone.
00:27:20
Speaker
So that's the key. That's the trick. There are so many business cases for this. And we're talking about... It's good business to have good people. And if you're going to help with the retention of your people, you are building up this excellent group of excellent culture and excellent talent, and you are keeping them.
00:27:41
Speaker
And that is the key because you're right. Like, and it's the same in my previous organization. was like, I'm not'm not, I'm not going to leave here ever, but you know, then five hour club. and But, but, but that, that is, that is the key. It's, it's retention.
00:27:56
Speaker
It is. i mean, everyone from my previous employment that got made redundant, the ones that don't have kids have found full-time employment. The ones that are men and their wives after the couple of kids have found full-time employment.
00:28:09
Speaker
The ones that have older kids and that are neurotypical have found employment. And hey, guess who's not found employment? Me. So I'm still the one at the back of the race because of certain exceptions.
00:28:22
Speaker
Again, it's real life. I'm one of many that are going through it. um But I'm one that's staying firm on my voice and I'm making it known because if I have that voice, I can stand up for so many.
00:28:35
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think that's what we need, right? We need our voice to be louder. We need your voice to be louder to shout about the additional needs that you have. Because if you don't, and it's like they don't exist and it's not normalized.
00:28:48
Speaker
And then, you know, we're cut out of the workforce and then everybody else goes on their happy, merry way. But what about the people struggling in the background? What about those people who are desperate to work? You are ready and wanting to work.
00:29:01
Speaker
yet she's not able to and I think that's the key thing here just such a yeah you're missing a trick employers what are you doing and I think so interesting yesterday we went we were with working families and a couple of stories that are shared there which were really key to this and one of them was from Charlie who has twin boys one of them has additional needs and she said she went two employees she's a teacher and she went to two head teachers and she was up front in terms of what she needed in terms of being a parent and a carer to her son and the response from the two her teachers was very different one of them was like well you can make your time back up later and the other one was well we'll just give you what you need you know whatever you need we're here we'll support you and obviously she went but
00:29:45
Speaker
to that employer, that head teacher, and she worked that school. And I think for her, being able to be upfront made it very clear what the was the right employer for her, right? So I think that is part of the reason, that you say, to actually ask for that flexibility and what you need from the onset, because then it shows any red flags for employers that maybe actually down the line won't be a great support system for you.
00:30:07
Speaker
And then the other person we spoke to highlighted the importance of job shares. And actually in her organization, they were finding job shares. You know, they were making it work. In fact, she reduced her hours so she could do a job share that she could then work at a higher, more senior level within the company.
00:30:22
Speaker
Because it then it then worked for them on both sides. So it's about thinking outside the box and redesigning it in a way that works for us. But ultimately, we're the ones still doing it right. We're the ones still shouting. We're the ones who are having to redesign it. We're the ones who are still having to ask and beg.
00:30:37
Speaker
And what would be really nice if employers could also think about these things. and offer them to us because then they're gonna get the best people, right? So hopefully one day, maybe. I think that's the thing with society.
Societal Judgment and Embracing Autism
00:30:52
Speaker
I think women get a lot of the backlash.
00:30:54
Speaker
um You know, you're always hearing, I mean, I got it after the panorama. I've had a few men in my LinkedIn inbox saying, well, you chose to be a mom. um Yeah, ah you chose to be a mom, so that was your choice. And then I've had it when my son was nonverbal. i've had ah people within ah my family friend circle say, well, it's your fault. You're the mom.
00:31:15
Speaker
You're the reason why he's not talking. And I think as women, we're always getting that finger pointed at us. No, I mean, ah my response is always going to this. You point a finger at me, there's three pointing back at you. That's one life lesson my dad's always taught me. And that's one I will always hold on to.
00:31:32
Speaker
Yes, um I chose to be a mum, didn't choose to give up my career. Yes, my son's non-verbal. I spoke to him as much as I could, but I'm sorry, but he's autistic, not by choice, because if I wanted to, I wanted a neurotypical child.
00:31:45
Speaker
um Apart from now, now I actually say it's a blessing because it's a superpower. that These autistic kids are special. They're so smart. I yeah think he can fix my phone in a second. I think I had technical difficulties logging in this morning.
00:32:01
Speaker
I guarantee he would have got it up and running within a minute. And here's me fronting over the laptop for 10 minutes. So, yeah, so now it's all a blessing. So if I ever saw that person again, I'd be like, you know what?
00:32:12
Speaker
Thank you. I actually think my child's very special and we'll see in about 15 years where he is. Yes. Well, this is it. And I think that is such a... Brilliant way to look at it. And I do believe that too. I think you get the children and the child that you deserve and you can be a great parent for. And it sounds like you are just seeing your son for the incredible things that what he is and what he can bring to the table, which is different to others, but it doesn't make it wrong or worse.
00:32:40
Speaker
It just means that he thinks differently. And what a brilliant thing to do, right? Be able to think differently. So think it's a great thing to be able to call it a superpower and see that actually he is bringing a lot to the table to you and to your family and to whatever he does going forward. So I think, yeah, you being his supporter there is incredible.
00:32:58
Speaker
yeah it really It really is. um I just have to go back to the to the comment of you chose to be a mum. Like you chose to be a mum, but you didn't choose to have the motherhood penalty. I know I keep on going on about this.
00:33:15
Speaker
i just It's outrageous. And I just wonder, do you think it's because of our culture? Do you think it's because of a lack of education and the lack of them feeling the pain point?
00:33:27
Speaker
that they feel like they need to make a comment like that. I think those type of men are ignorant. Why? yeah Because they have their partners that are default parents and don't let them take on half the job role.
00:33:42
Speaker
um I'll always say to someone, here's my pair of shoes, take a walk or fit in it for a day and let me know how you cope. And that's the response I give back to all those men. Here's my shoes, walk a day in my life and then you let me know what I chose and what I didn't choose.
00:33:57
Speaker
And that is it. It's just ignorance. Society is very ignorant. um And I think it's like when I said it earlier on, women are just naturally, apparently the default parents.
00:34:09
Speaker
That's what they expect and that's what they've... They've just made it go that way. That's the direction. And I think the trouble is, I think the reason that that is the case is because once upon a time, that was a setup, that was a dynamic. The men would go to work, the women stayed at home.
00:34:23
Speaker
That is not life anymore. Women need to want to have careers, want to work, and we have every right to do so. So in that way, then you have to share the responsibility and things like extended parental leave and things where men can be more involved.
00:34:38
Speaker
and be know to share the responsibility will hopefully mean that going forward for our children if not now but you know they will see that it's an equal thing that we have to do it's not one person's responsibility and i i did the same i had five years out and actually it enabled my husband to work which was brilliant but then it meant that our dynamics were very set you know I looked after the kids, I was a default parent, and it and he went off and progressed in his career, but it left me behind and in a space where actually then I felt like I had no choice.
00:35:12
Speaker
How was I then ah able to look after the kids and go back to my career? And then for him to be able to sort of take on more of the shared responsibility has been a really hard thing. He's doing it and he's doing a really great job, but but it hasn't been easy to make that change. and think if we were doing that more from the beginning, if that was a cultural and social norm that you share the responsibility, then...
00:35:32
Speaker
it will make it easier for everybody. And you'll enjoy life, relationships, your family, parenting, and be able to do your career, right?
00:35:45
Speaker
I would love to know then, just before we move into the last questions, you said, you you know, walk in my shoes
Daily Routine and Identity Struggles
00:35:51
Speaker
for a day. What does it look like for you day to day, hour by hour? Your son's at school, your daughter's at nursery. Tell us a day in the life of you.
00:35:59
Speaker
So my son somehow has an alarm clock in his stomach and decides waking up at 4am is acceptable. So that's the day that we start off with my daughter. She's a great sleeper. She understands sleep equals beauty. e So she'll wake up a bit later.
00:36:13
Speaker
um So that gives me that one on one time with my son, which he really appreciates because the minute I bring the little one down, he's gone. He's left the room. He can't deal with her talking and her yapping.
00:36:25
Speaker
um Then it's just getting them both ready for school. um I drop my older one in first, then my younger one goes to nursery. After that, it's Harleen the housewife. I start my household chores. I mean, I'm starting to paint the house just to kill time. I'm like, let me do some house DIY.
00:36:43
Speaker
um So it's all of that. It's constantly just cleaning. I've got my own boot routine going, laundry. like painting and then I'll go pick up my daughter at 12 o'clock from nursery, give her lunch, put her down for a nap. And then that's when my body gives up. And it's like, you know, Harleen, take your hour lunch break and take that before you go pick up your son.
00:37:01
Speaker
And then, ah yeah, I'll go pick up my son. Oh, I actually leave early to go pick up my son just so I can have some me time, sit in the car and just ah be like, all right, get ready for the evening because we're going from zero to 100 once they're all home.
00:37:18
Speaker
ah Once he comes in, it's constant routine. That's where it's just go, go, go until bedtime. I don't last in bed. Like literally, I'm like, you know what? It's nine o'clock.
00:37:29
Speaker
I want to watch Netflix. And within 30 minutes, I'm falling asleep with my phone. A lot of my friends even know, like I could be midway texting. If I stop texting, I'm sorry. I'm gone. I'm literally in la la land. I'm done. um so yeah, my days are...
00:37:47
Speaker
Boring, I would say. It's not productive. I would say it's not productive. I've started saying to my husband, you know, keep bringing out the paint tards. I need to start painting because you want that productivity.
00:37:58
Speaker
And I'm not doing it right now. I mean, I'm tired of cleaning the house. How much can I clean? Well, this is the point, right? It sounds like I know that feeling well, but you're like, I have this amazing time, this productive time that i could be really productive without my kids there.
00:38:12
Speaker
And when you're not able to work, you can't find that role where you can use your brain and do something, you know, in that way. What else can I do? I'm going to organize these cupboards and do this and do that. But actually, would you choose to do that?
00:38:24
Speaker
Probably not. It's not something, you know, being, like you say, a housewife is not what you signed up for. What you would really like to do is carry on with your career. It's not possible. So you're finding other ways to, you know, energize yourself, find a bit of you again.
00:38:37
Speaker
But yeah, to say that your days are boring, I get it, that mundane feeling is, and you feel like you're not really getting anywhere, you're not doing anything, you're sort of there for them. But that is such an important thing, that you say, you're exhausted by the end of it, because they do take a lot of your energy. And they do, you know,
00:38:55
Speaker
spend it spend all your time it's emotional it's physical work and it's boring it's hard and I think unless you do it day to day you don't really get it No, because i think even doing the house job, it's not like my husband would walk home and be like, oh, look at that, Harleen, you cleaned the kitchen. You've done something new there.
00:39:15
Speaker
No, because Harleen, you're doing this every day. There's nothing changed. So I don't get that appreciation when if I was working, you know, you get that appreciation when you're like, I'm going to take annual your leave. I deserve this. Or, hey, here's extra money. Let's go on a holiday. And you get to splurge, you get to go shopping and you appreciate that. and he'll appreciate that. But Right now, it's just, eh, Harleen's there. It's Groundhog every day. day You know where you can find Harleen, and that's where Harleen will be.
00:39:42
Speaker
It's not like I'm doing anything interesting. and Being a parent is great. I love it. Would I change it? Never. I get homework I get to do with my son in the evenings. But again, you want to be, you know, you during the day ah mummy in the evenings. Do you know what mean?
00:39:57
Speaker
I think you get a different energy. Everyone thinks you're at home and you're living the best life, but don't you're really not. You're really not. No, you really, and I, I mean, I had a day in London yesterday, which is a rarity for me. And I came back, my husband did the kids, he did the pickups and the after school clubs.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I came back so energized to see them. I couldn't wait to talk to them about my day. i didn't mind doing bedtime. All of these things that normally are boring and a bit of a drain and hard work. But actually, i felt like I found a bit of myself again. And it was such a dream to then come back and be a parent.
00:40:34
Speaker
And like you say, if you don't get that opportunity to to find yourself again, to be you, to do the things that energize you, then you're not going to necessarily be the best parent and show up in a way that you really need to and you want to.
00:40:48
Speaker
And I think it's unfortunate because I think I've lost my identity. I think a lot of women lose their identity. I used to, you know, like dressing up, doing my hair because you're at home. You're like, eh, what's point? Chuck on the joggers, chuck on this, you know, leave the hair messy. And that's become me. And now it's become a habit.
00:41:04
Speaker
So even when I go out with my friend ah for lunch or coffee, I don't wear makeup because now I've made that a habit. I'm like, oh, it's such an extra chore. whennight That was never me.
00:41:15
Speaker
So I've lost who I am. And I know a lot of moms do that as well. And it's like what you said, when you do go, you come back energized. I know I do. I'm like, oh, where are my kids? Come here. I'll do bedtime. I'll do bath time. Hey, I'll do dinner.
00:41:28
Speaker
You're just a Duracell battery at that point. It's so, so true. It is that, that like, I do remember it well, that groundhog feeling. And I remember, because it's not a million years ago for me, when I went to having that time off, quote unquote.
00:41:45
Speaker
And I remember... When I started work, my my husband and I were much better at doing the morning juggle where where Chris would do like the morning routine. And then that meant I was able to do something for myself in the morning.
00:41:58
Speaker
And I just took that pressure off. I was like, wait, why didn't I do this when I was full time? you know, parent for the time that they were one in three. And actually at a time that I really, really, really needed it to fill up that cup just a little bit would have massively helped my identity.
Self-Care and Reclaiming Identity
00:42:18
Speaker
But I felt like I didn't deserve it or need it at the time because I wasn't bringing in money. But you were doing something more valuable than bringing in the money.
00:42:29
Speaker
So I'd like to say what I'm saying to my past self, to you, Harleen, is... do you deserve to fill your cup also thank you yeah that actually hit me quite hard i to tear hear that but yeah it's true if it is true you do deserve it it's a really hard thing especially when you've got yeah additional stuff so honestly like you were giving them everything you were giving your whole self so give yourself a give yourself a bit back you know put on the makeup go and yeah even it's going to the shop or whatever
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah, you deserve that. I'm trying to tell myself that every day. I'll let you know when that changes. Yes. yes yeah Yeah, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to my hair, I'm going put makeup in. It hasn't happened yet, but I will let you know when it happens. You do, send us a picture. We'll love it. We'll be like, yes, that's Halloween.
00:43:20
Speaker
So on that, we'll ask you the last two questions and let you go. um So looking back on your life and career, is there anything you would do differently and tell your younger self?
00:43:33
Speaker
No, wouldn't change anything about my life or my career. I'm thankful for my kids and I'm thankful for them choosing to me to be their mum. Would I tell my younger self something? Yeah, don't give up.
00:43:47
Speaker
um It is a hard life. Don't give up. And I think it's taken me right now to be confident. I was not confident when I was young. If I had this confidence, I think there was a lot of people, including that employee that fired me where I could have just said, you know what, do one because you won't be me.
00:44:06
Speaker
You won't be me. And I got really far in my career. um ah definitely would want to say thank you to my past employer for understanding me and giving me that chance and understanding my my kids but now i'm not changing nothing because you know what i'm on this journey and i'm on this journey now to support other moms and other families that have sent kids so thank you for putting me in this journey not changing it no I love that.
00:44:33
Speaker
Like you say, everything, I believe that too. Everything you do, everything you get given, every experience shapes you for who you are now, right? And even if you've, it means that now you've got more fire in your belly to shout louder, then that is why that happened.
00:44:47
Speaker
And that is why you had those experiences. And now you're going need a voice for so many who need it. So thank you. So final question then, I think we might know, but if you then could do one thing, do or say one thing for yourself tomorrow, what would it be?
Future Aspirations and Workplace Fairness
00:45:04
Speaker
Oh, I think I need to start taking time for myself. I think we've identified I've clearly got an issue where I'm too relaxed with my legs. um But like I said, I don't think it'll be an overnight change.
00:45:16
Speaker
I hear it a lot from my own mum, my friends. I hardly, you know, make a bit of effort, but it's not an overnight change. I think... I'm not there yet. When I get there, I'll be bringing Harleen back.
00:45:28
Speaker
ah So currently right now i am in the process of applying for a parent governor position at my son's school. And if I get that, think that could be bringing Harleen back.
00:45:40
Speaker
Yes, I love that for you. I really hope you get that because like you say, you just need to be bring a little bit back and then there'll be more, just a bit. and Just a little bit he did and then Harleen's back. Yeah.
00:45:53
Speaker
like 30% there. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. But you need more. You need more of you. I need more. I need more. And I will say if there's any employers listening out, you need to give everyone a fair chance.
00:46:05
Speaker
Listen to our stories, understand what great things we could bring to your organisation, to your team, and just support us. wait Your organisation would be in a better place. So yeah, definitely.
00:46:17
Speaker
That would be my one message to any employer listening to this podcast. Well, thank you for saying that. I agree. You need to hire more mums. They say mums. They know it, but they're doing it. so step up, show us that you can give us what we need because we will give it back to you in spades, right? 100%.
00:46:36
Speaker
i jeffer say Oh, it's been so, so lovely talking to you, Harleen. Honestly, I really have loved hearing your story. As heartbreaking as it has been, i just hope that it gives you everything you need to go forward and to shout the loudest because you really deserve to do that for you and your community. So thank you for being here.
00:46:57
Speaker
Go and have a rest. Go and do something for you right now. go and have a coffee, whatever it is. Go and sleep for whatever it is. hope you do. Go fill your cup. Truly.
00:47:07
Speaker
and metaphorically so you're a cat i'm so lovely harleen take care thank you take care bye