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Episode 060 Part 07 - Hamnet
0 Playsin 32 minutes
I'm joined by Ed from the Scruffies where we discuss some of this years Oscar Best Picture films. Instead of a single episode, the discussions have been broken up into individual episodes to make them easier to consume without spoiling movies you want to watch.
We look forward to hearing what you think about these movies so make sure to send your feedback to feedback@justshillin.com
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Transcript
Introduction to the Film and its Shakespeare Connection
00:00:00
Speaker
What is your quick, high-level, spoiler-free, high-level thoughts? Well, first of all, let me I'd say this. The director was Chloe Zhao.
00:00:11
Speaker
ah She made The Eternals and Nomadland, um starring Jesse Buckley, Paul Mezcal, and Zach Wizhardt. So good.
00:00:24
Speaker
um All right. What's your high-level? You said, so good. ah Yeah, the acting. i So I i need the disclaimer.
00:00:35
Speaker
i am not a Shakespeare nut. I don't know shit about Shakespeare because it has always bored me. And I know...
00:00:47
Speaker
It's deeper. It's a deep thing. like You got to think deep on it, and then you then you start liking it. But I never... What? I just read fucking Star Wars books. Like, come on.
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah. No. i'm ah I'm a young adult at reading level. that's That's my vibe. Not Shakespeare's... So, I went into this, and I had to... i I had to kind of look up Hamlet, like just to be sure, like, you know, like a little synopsis. So I knew kind of the storyline of Hamlet.
00:01:21
Speaker
So I wouldn't get thrown off in in this movie because I knew it had something to do with Hamlet. Because Hamnet is synonymous with Hamlet kind of as a name. that's like That's like the opening credit. That's what that's how it is. That's not like a spoiler. but yeah yeah It's like literally. yeah yeah So that being said, i had a ah little base of knowledge about Hamlet.
Discussion of the Film's Historical Context and Emotional Impact
00:01:45
Speaker
This is about William Shakespeare. Real life, though, not in a story.
00:01:53
Speaker
right so As far as I know. That's what I believe. Slightly fictionalized. but yeah um Very well acted. It felt real for the time period. um I'm also today years old knowing Anne Hathaway was named after William Shakespeare's wife.
00:02:23
Speaker
Oh, I didn't. I still. yeah i hope so So in the movie, her name's Agni, but pronounced and ena and and yeah, and yeah, and yeah, and yeah.
00:02:38
Speaker
And her last name is Hathaway. Hmm. So there you go. Today. Today learned. Yeah. yeah For me, I am the same. I was forced to read Shakespeare in school. and Oh, really? it would I was not. like like Like lightly, like very light like extremely lightly. like Not like read, read, and be like, what did you think of that? it's like, no, do you kind of go into the basics of like the American education system kind of
00:03:12
Speaker
Like, you know what it is and to be not to be recite a couple of memorize a couple of lines and that's about it. That's I've never been moved by Shakespeare. um
00:03:25
Speaker
This was the first time like that. I was like, I don't fully understand what they're saying at the because it's not a shake. The the movie's not like written in Shakespearean like a sonnet or anything like that or like the.
00:03:39
Speaker
iambic pentameter wow that's a cut that's a pull um there you go but like at the end there's some kind of like shakespeare stuff going on and i'm like we said like my quick thing is emotional raw deeply personal and way better than i expected like this was the one i was talking about at the beginning of the movie ah or beginning the podcast i'm like i kind of had a rough idea of what it was about and i'm like i have zero interest in watching this movie And then, like, at the end of it, it's just like, I couldn't... Like, I think this movie made me feel more than most of the others. I'm like, I'm... This isn't... This is... The acting in this is so real. Jessie Buckley, I need to see if she's nominated for Best Actress. Because if she's not... oh she's top of this She's top of the Best Actress. Like, the whole movie, flawless. Best acting I've ever seen in any movie. Like, she is...
00:04:37
Speaker
She's like Shakespeare's wife. Yes. Or and fasting is the mother of his of the of their children.
00:04:47
Speaker
And just so incredible. The acting was was nuts. It was less foo. My other nose, like it's less foo foo than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be um very like artsy, very ah high minded literature, Shakespearean, just this like.
Exploration of Character Dynamics and Themes
00:05:09
Speaker
shakespearean ego stroking but it's more of a period piece ah more yeah yeah it's more emotional family very few characters uh the the personal relationships and just kind of ah the the whole like lady of the forest kind of thing that his wife i'd never knew anything about any of that and it's just like it's so interesting just the whole movie was just like in the whole time i'm just kind of like this is this isn't my kind of movie but then when it kind of gets to the climax and kind of the the the heavier parts of of things that take place and then kind of the follow through is just kind of like whoa like that that was that was crazy like a personal look at grief and what it's like to carry it and
00:06:01
Speaker
and the Understanding between two people. Go ahead. And that's a credit to the acting. Oh, yeah. cause it's Because the the way they show their emotions without talking.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:18
Speaker
I mean, the talking makes it better, obviously, in those scenes, but this They're so good, they don't need it. And it's amazing. um the The grief they show, the emotions they show feel genuine. um Yeah, i i I went into it thinking, you know, I'll watch it. yeah It's Shakespeare. Mark off the list.
00:06:51
Speaker
But I walked away from it. Yeah, go ahead. but I mean, the best part is that they don't tell you, like, if you read the synopsis, it it's Shakespeare. But if you watch the movie blind, they don't say his last name. They don't even say his name. They don't. Until. Right, they just.
00:07:08
Speaker
Until, like, near the end. Like, they just call him the husband or the father or, like, the tutor. Yep. um Yep. Like, they don't. It's not about Shakespeare. Like, it's not a bio, like, a biopic or anything like that.
00:07:21
Speaker
It's. I do wonder why how I would have felt not knowing. Because I went in knowing. Did you go in knowing? i I knew. matt Madison did not know.
00:07:33
Speaker
she She didn't know until they said his name. How did she about it? said something about... what like like oh you know I like how they just said, call him the husband. and I was like, oh, Doug, do you...
00:07:48
Speaker
Like, do you... She's like, oh, is he like a real person? And I'm like... I was like, oh, you literally... like i Do you even know the name of the movie? Like, did you... You didn't see anything, like, before we pressed play. like Like, shit. Like, you really are going into this 100% blind. Because I think even the description's like, after da-da-da-da-da-da, Enya and William Shakespeare, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It's like, oh, shit, you didn't... You were...
00:08:16
Speaker
You're like, yeah, opening credits, like fade from black. That's cool. I think I think it was it She seemed to enjoy it. Like, it didn't seem distracting. Like I. It was distracting for me at times. I'm like, when are they going to like it was?
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, me too. Same. I wish i wish I didn't know. go ahead. like ah You wish you didn't know like the the the the peak of the movie, like what the whole thing is about.
00:08:44
Speaker
But like it's literally in every description. like it's like It's the story of this. It's like, well, just waiting for it to happen. like i I wish I didn't know he was William Shakespeare going into it.
00:08:58
Speaker
Then I would have... I don't know. Maybe I would have get ah gotten a more raw experience. You know what I'm saying? Instead, it's now a story that revolves around famous people or a person.
00:09:12
Speaker
So maybe if that variable was taken out of it, what It would have been better or worse. It's interesting because, because they, I think they, did I don't know anything about his life or like when he became famous or like, i don't know anything about any that.
00:09:31
Speaker
Um, but it seems like if he was famous, like during the timeframe of the movie, which it seems like they're at the end. Cause like, Oh, he has like the nicest house in all of London. Like, yeah, he was doing well. They did a, they, they did a good job at like never approaching that or like having that be a part of the movie.
00:09:49
Speaker
Like, besides when ah the not mom came back, it was like everybody in town is talking about it. They're like, getting we don't we don't like you. Go away.
00:10:02
Speaker
um like It was that somehow that all managed to kind of like stay away. Like it was really kind of an... at ah i I was saying it perfectly yesterday. Is it Anya? Agna? Agna? Anya? Anya?
00:10:16
Speaker
Whatever. The the on the mom.
Anya's Nature Connection and Spiritual Themes
00:10:19
Speaker
Anya. the The mom. It was really kind of from her perspective and mostly in her um and her perspective most of the movie.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I think that was a good – cool – like the way they kind of threaded that needle was cool. So just just so you know, like I googled it says William Shakespeare's wife was Anne Hathaway, though she is sometimes referred to as Anya, A-G-N-E-S, in historical documents. so Because i was back when like letters didn't really mean anything and it was just kind of spelled differently. and You could do whatever you want. how However you felt writing it. Yeah. yeah
00:11:04
Speaker
Add a G. I think if I knew... sure I think if I knew more about that historical time period, like that, I'd probably make more sense. But it's like, that's when I was like fuzzy gray areas. It's like, oh yeah, the what? 1700s, whenever that was, I don't even know when this was.
00:11:21
Speaker
No, so I couldn't tell you. Sean, there's twins in this. And yeah that kind of hit me because I have twins. Twin daughters. I was wanting to ask you about that. how that would Yeah, that that hit me differently. Because I do see a bond between my twin girls. They have a thing.
00:11:43
Speaker
It's not supernatural or anything, but I do see it. And...
00:11:50
Speaker
It might lean more towards one than the other, but they can't go without each other. you know they They feel comfort having each other around.
00:12:03
Speaker
so yeah I relate when I saw that. I don't want to get spoilery yet, or can we? I don't know. We got spoilers. Spoiler warning? Because
00:12:15
Speaker
spoiler spoiler warning yeah when when the plague hits and um hamnet's like i can't live without or i can't be exist without you what's her name jude judith judith yes his sister twin sister um who Who had trouble being when she was at birth. she was She was the one who had all the ailments being born and throughout life had like asthma and allergies and things like that. and He was kind of the the healthier one.
00:12:55
Speaker
He was first and was fine. She was second and thought dead but then suddenly breathed and was fine. Yeah. Right?
00:13:06
Speaker
and um Yeah. So she got sick Which is slightly not a surprise because she was prone to that kind of thing. and then But it got worse and worse and worse.
00:13:20
Speaker
She wasn't doing well. And then he, as a twin, was like, hey, we look very similar. well We'll fool death and i'll i'll ah I'll cross the bridge instead of you. They actually used that terminology.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, he crawled into the covers with her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they hugged each other and or he hugged her and then he kind of just took it from her.
00:13:51
Speaker
But it it kind of it kind of leaned into the the fact that. Anne Hathaway, the the mom, she's very nature oriented.
00:14:02
Speaker
Her family, her the women in her family all come from the woods and kind of have this spiritual kind of. I don't want to call it a witch because i think it's the wrong connotation, but like a, whatever that is, like, and it kind of leaned into that kind of that, uh, metaphysical. And so like, they were all very like, Oh, plant medicine, the yada, yada, yada. And so that kind of lends itself to it when he's like, I can see death.
00:14:27
Speaker
He's looking, he's looking at me. I can, I think I can trick him. Like I, I'm going to be brave. And like, I'll go like you, like, I'll do it. I can't live without you, but like you go be. And like, dude, it was brutal. I little kid acted his ass off.
00:14:45
Speaker
It was really good. Yes. Yeah. and And even later when you see him at the end of the play at the end, oh man, really good. um No. Yeah. The Anya.
00:15:00
Speaker
ana I kind of related, this is me going back to D&D, Dungeons and Dragons stuff, but I kind of related her relation to the woods and stuff. Like, she's like a druid. Had...
00:15:14
Speaker
um had had a little magical prowess with nature. um you You could see it in the movie when they were looking at the bees. Was it bees?
00:15:27
Speaker
And like wondering why they were acting weird because of ah yeah plague was happening or something. i don't know. But it seemed to be hereditary. Her mom had it.
00:15:40
Speaker
um Was handing it down. They had visions and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. And there's that cave in the woods that she liked hanging around, I guess. i don't Was she actually scared of it? I don't even know.
00:15:54
Speaker
i I don't know. That felt very like Empire Strikes Back. like don't Don't go in there. You'll be tested. and but She liked being around it for some reason. Giving birth next to it and stuff. So...
00:16:08
Speaker
um
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, so I felt like they were more like like like Druidic. And that is why his family stayed out where they were, and he was in London doing his work. Because this is notoriously like around the time when London was pretty gross. They were worried about the air quality and just the...
00:16:37
Speaker
how tight be because they couldn't afford it they didn't have the money it stayed out there and the separation and yeah yeah so Hamnet dies and that throws the movie in that direction and that's when it starts getting really emotional I mean it was already emotional with them meeting and falling in love and shit but this like really took a turn
Grief and Personal Responses in the Narrative
00:17:06
Speaker
And when when she finds, Anya, finds out he's, like, passed and crossed or not with the living, her cry...
00:17:22
Speaker
dude dude i It felt so real. like Like, was almost like, because I have children, and I would be like, if one of mine, i feel like I would I could do the same thing.
00:17:38
Speaker
know what I mean? Like, yeah really well acted.
00:17:43
Speaker
I felt like I was right there with her, losing my own son or whatever. it felt It felt so real. Like, I'm like, that had to be brutal to film, and I hope it was only one one take, because that was just... Like, the mother-in-law was there, and like they didn't have a good relationship, and you can see...
00:18:05
Speaker
How much it affected her. In the moment too. Just the loss. And especially when it's still not the one that you were expecting. The sickly one. It's like a curveball. Oh shit. He was doing well. Suddenly now he's dead.
00:18:22
Speaker
Fuck. It's very sad. and yeah The mother-in-law had experienced it too You find out later. She had a daughter that had died. Or something.
00:18:35
Speaker
She actually lost a couple at childbirth and lost one ah when it was old like when she was older. Yeah. And she kind of She was trying to give her advice about it. Like, oh, it happens. You know? It's like, dude, it's still not great. Well, it's like, ah's not wreck I'm glad... I'm glad they had that conversation with, what, Susanna, the oldest... The eldest daughter, like, Will and... Anya's... Anya's, like, older daughter was like, oh, have you ever had this happen? And she's like, yeah, I did. But, like, and you can kind of see how...
00:19:07
Speaker
out Like not out of touch, but like a different time and a different perspective she had on it and just how she carried it. She carried her grief differently and just maybe more of a religious punishment stance on it. And Anya was, is very not about like the typical church. She even says in the movie at one point, she's like, I, I go to your church, but I've, I've always said I'd go to your church, but I'd never utter a word. Like she's about the forest and nature and the kind of the Druidic lifestyle.
00:19:36
Speaker
And so I thought that was an interesting perspective and just this kind of and then kind of the grief and the way it transforms throughout the rest of the movie with Will living in London because he has to work for the theater and things like that. And, and her out on this property and then just kind of the, her not really understanding what he does. Cause that's kind of where it turns to of like, like, Oh, you're out there just being,
00:20:01
Speaker
Like you're not here with a family grieving and doing what needs to be done. yeah lost And then just that, that whole scene, like where they find out about like his new play Hamlet.
00:20:13
Speaker
And so they go to see it secretly, her and her brother, um Bartholomew, who's like a surprisingly like down to earth, like chill character, like because usually you like the brother-in-laws are never cool.
00:20:26
Speaker
Like usually they're like, I hate the husband. It's like, no, like he's like super supportive of his sister. And like this is I was like, this is refreshing. So they go and watch like the premiere of Hamlet and just like.
00:20:39
Speaker
Just watching her process why this play has her son's name. And like her, the fact that changes yeah throughout it.
00:20:51
Speaker
Oh yeah. She starts out, she starts out being like, why are you, why is my son's name being used? Like this is in a profane manner. And it's like, this is absurd. And then she starts out as an angry heckler and like a calm.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah. And then it becomes like, like, that's what I'm talking about. Like kind of go through this Shakespearean thing And I'm like, dude, I've never been moved by Shakespeare, but like whatever that all just was, That whole performance of like people in a movie acting as actors performing Shakespeare, like that's like metaphysical there and like layers deep. And it's like, dang, that's some different levels of acting that the whole thing just consumed you.
Symbolism and the Power of Theater in Shakespeare's Grief
00:21:36
Speaker
I think... i think My opinion on this, I think it's a realization that everybody processes death differently. Like, they grief differently.
00:21:52
Speaker
So, she was griefing her son in her way, which felt kind of normal to the audience. You know? Super sad, whatever.
00:22:03
Speaker
And he's like, I gotta go back to work. right at the time or whatever or like or he didn't even show up on time so that made her annoyed and then he's like okay I'm leaving now and she's like what the fuck and she's grieving and hes it to her i think from an audience standpoint we're from her and and and we're thinking he doesn't give a shit Yeah.
00:22:33
Speaker
And then it slowly progresses to finding out that like he's memorialized the relationship and swapped places with his son in like the greatest, one of the greatest plays ever created.
00:22:45
Speaker
Like in like witnessing it for the first time and everybody in in the theater being so moved and kind of like honoring and feeling that emotion and that grief, not realizing it's for her son, but for the character like in the in the play who's,
00:23:03
Speaker
the stand in and everybody being so emotionally moved by that and just how that just kind of changes her. And just the, the acting is unreal. Like, yeah, it's so, it's so crazy. It's just like, going to need a minute. Like don't, I watched it twice.
00:23:24
Speaker
I rewound it and watched it again. Cause I was like, this is amazing. ah when when Hamlet, the actor, is like, I'm dying.
00:23:36
Speaker
And she's just like, he puts his hand out. And as an audience member, you're like, okay. This is not interactive. She was so moved that she took his hand. because She was right there. She took his hand just like she took William Shakespeare's hand towards the beginning of the movie yeah when they first met.
00:24:02
Speaker
And it was just moving. And she realizes...
00:24:11
Speaker
She realized that how moving it was. Did you notice her turn around and look at the audience? And how they were all putting their hands out.
00:24:22
Speaker
and Yeah, they all started reaching out too. And then they were all putting their hands on each other's shoulders. And it's like, because they were all moved. And like then there she's looking around. She would look back at the at the wealthy people kind of in the the back seats and the upper things. And they were all moved. Yeah.
00:24:39
Speaker
As well. I mean, they weren't obviously touching people like in the people on the, on the, on the, the general audience floor, floor seats, but it's, it's She looks at William right after that and realizes, I think realizes how moving it.
00:24:56
Speaker
She then realizes at that point, like, How moving it was to him that his son had died. like that How intentional. yeah How intentional. that yeah yeah How he is channeled. because she's because She spoke earlier throughout the movie. like When he was wasted upstairs and trying to write. and He was frustrated and felt trapped in loss and He needs an outlet. He's not.
00:25:25
Speaker
it'll consume him if he doesn't, if he doesn't produce in certain ways and seeing this realizing, Oh, he, he has been grieving. It did affect him and he's put it all into this.
00:25:38
Speaker
And I feel it in everybody else. He's, he's grieving in a way that he's sharing it with others and other people feel and share that grief with him. And just the power of that is,
00:25:49
Speaker
is is is so real and in the moment. It's just like, i remember one point in time Madison was like, she was laying on the couch. She peeked up, she's looking at me. I'm like, fuck you, man. I'm not crying. You're crying. Get out my face.
00:26:01
Speaker
don't look at Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Don't sit over and look over the top of the pillow trying to catch me in the act, man. I see what you're doing. Don't do that. Pay attention to the movie. you don't even know You don't even know who that is. That's Shakespeare.
00:26:14
Speaker
but
00:26:18
Speaker
ah Yeah, it it was very... much and So like she looks at him, realizes it, turns back to the stage, and then sees her son.
00:26:30
Speaker
ham Hamnet, the kid. Like a vision of, the i know, a ghost, whatever you want to say. it's like he's crossing It's like his crossing the bridge is like on stage, and he's like walking through the doorway into the darkness in the back, but going backstage.
00:26:47
Speaker
and it's just And I don't know how long it's been since he passed. Do you know? It's been a while. I think. but um She looks at him and he smiles.
00:27:04
Speaker
Because I think he realizes like she's but she smiles sorry she smiles when she sees him.
00:27:16
Speaker
And he realizes, ah she's at peace with me crossing now. Yeah. You know what I Yeah. so then then she's he's happy enough to cross.
00:27:33
Speaker
like acceptance and love. think I think i think like her being angry at William about not caring because you know not showing grief the way she was showing grief was keeping Hamnet from crossing. That's my opinion.
00:27:52
Speaker
And then this was him like resting in peace knowing yeah ah she now knows everyone can get along now. I can cross and rest in peace.
00:28:04
Speaker
everybody's got Everybody's got to got let go. like not let i go and forget, but like let go of the spirit so it can move forward. um and then that I think that was the moment when both of them, I think when he when Hamlet, the play, played through, that was Williams letting letting him go and expressing, allowing that grief to be fulfilled.
00:28:28
Speaker
and I think for her, too, she let go of that anger. ah and And the and the heart like this the c clenching of it. and just her and In that moment, her acting.
00:28:40
Speaker
no There's no words in this scene. She's just looking at her son in her eyes. Because she laughs, smiles.
00:28:52
Speaker
She smiles back and walks off. But then she kind of shows like a final like sigh of relief. But sigh of like... Oh, fuck. He's gone.
00:29:03
Speaker
But I'm still relieved. Yeah. It's like a weight on her shoulders. Yeah. She's like a satisfaction. And it's not phoned in. Like it's easy. It's easy to like picture this in your mind and being like, oh, it's going to be like a, an Apollo 13 phoned in emotion. Like you're supposed to feel it right now. It's like, yeah, this is scary. This is emotional. It's like, no,
00:29:29
Speaker
this This movie lives and breathes on its acting. Jessie Buckley, like about a million percent. Like, this movie, i if it wasn't for her acting, I'd probably be like, yeah, this movie is okay. Like, I get it. was I would probably say it's just some, like, literary circle jerk just trying to make William Shakespeare out to be, like, some big brain, super sentimental person. But, like, the acting alone, her acting is just, like, this film was phenomenal.
00:30:00
Speaker
like yep Maybe I should read some Shakespeare. I won't, but maybe I should. Maybe. there's a maybe maybe If they made more movies like this, I would probably get more into Shakespeare. but I don't know, man. It was... yeah ah that That one scene was a culmination of her ability.
00:30:21
Speaker
like No words. like Three to four different emotions in one in like five seconds. and like the mic all moves me yeah yeah it all moved me and it was it didn't feel contrived or anything it was just it's good it's perfect so i take it you're recommended yeah for sure i take it your recommendation is uh yes people should watch it or is there somewhere something else yeah um
00:30:56
Speaker
and Unless you're in a mood for like action and shit. You know what i mean? Yeah. You gotta know it's more of an emotional kind of drama kind of thing. And if you love Shakespeare, though obviously watch it.
00:31:11
Speaker
but if if But if you love Shakespeare and you watch it and there's like inaccuracies, don't tell us. because yeah Yeah, no. i want to live in my bubble of liking it. yeah I like my naivete and my...
00:31:24
Speaker
you know ignorance of like, I thought he had like silly curls, but he didn't look like that.
00:31:35
Speaker
He was taller. isn't now Yeah. that He did a good job. i did Yeah, he did. i got it. it got It gets a yes recommendation for me. I think of i thought it was really good. um I scored it a 9.5.
00:31:51
Speaker
I'm scoring it the same as, as a train dreams. Nine. Nice. Yeah. I think it's Jesse. I mean, Jesse Buckley's acting takes it from like a six to a 9.5, but hands down for me, it's, it is a masterclass and just like, yeah, assuming and it's Shakespeare ish adjacent.
00:32:20
Speaker
No, no, Which that that's my as much that's minus one point. Actors i know but like actors like that shit. so what I don't know. It's like when they started acting out Hamlet I'm like, I just wanted to look at Madison and do the what's his name? Tim Robinson and be like, what is he talking about? i don't fucking understand. The sentences are backwards.
00:32:46
Speaker
What are you saying?
00:32:50
Speaker
Go back to the normal speak.