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Episode 060 Part 08 - Sinners
0 Playsin 34 minutes
I'm joined by Ed from the Scruffies where we discuss some of this years Oscar Best Picture films. Instead of a single episode, the discussions have been broken up into individual episodes to make them easier to consume without spoiling movies you want to watch.
We look forward to hearing what you think about these movies so make sure to send your feedback to feedback@justshillin.com
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Sinners' by Ryan Coogler
00:00:01
Speaker
All right. so we're we're We're on the home stretch. We're rounding the final turn. We're on the F1 race. where'rere We're leaving the pits. We're we're in first place. First P or whatever it's called.
00:00:16
Speaker
And all we got left is Sinners.
00:00:20
Speaker
Sinners was a Ryan Coogler film. And he's done Black Panther and Creed. This movie is starring our buddy Hawes' favorite, Michael B. Jordan.
00:00:34
Speaker
it's also got It's also got Jack O'Connell and the wonderful Haley Steinfeld in it as well, among many others. like That's just a short list. There's a um a lot of amazing actors in this, and that's a a concatenated list there. so um what was your What was your quick...
00:00:55
Speaker
your're your're high Your high level. What's your high level on this one?
Expectations vs Reality: Themes of Jazz, Blues, & Vampires
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm very crazy. My high level. ah um
00:01:07
Speaker
It wasn't as deep as I thought it would be. I also went into it not fully knowing what was about, but I knew it was about like jazz, blues kind of stuff.
00:01:18
Speaker
and I was hoping it would be more about that, but it slightly wasn't. Less about some of the other stuff in it? It was more about vampires.
00:01:30
Speaker
Spoiler alert. Anyway, sorry. um That's what... I think that's the root of my... If I were to give it a criticism.
00:01:42
Speaker
You wanted more music, less vampires. I wanted more, like, deeper stuff. Because, you know, he's a good actor. Michael Jordan and stuff like that. Like, it's...
00:01:54
Speaker
and And blues and... I want a little more deepness, but it seemed more... They wanted to go more the supernatural vampire than I thought. You wanted more musical history and connection and less... Less like... Because they had some... and There was some like deepness of the music. so But not... We kind of have to like dig.
00:02:19
Speaker
Be like... We'll get we'll get into that. shortly, but that's fair. i Obviously, the African-American struggles in the South, like I wanted to like more more of that.
00:02:35
Speaker
um I thought I'd get more of that, but... don't know. It just ended up being like a... What's that movie? don Donald Dusk? don Dawn of the Dead? or they're in the...
00:02:49
Speaker
but know where there in that where there's the building and they're just getting swarmed by like vampires or some shit. I don't know. Oh, 28 days a night or whatever it is. Oh, God. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Is it Donald?
00:03:10
Speaker
No. They're up in the de polar o ice cap. ae Snowy. I feel like it's a fucking restaurant they're in and they just need to survive till daylight.
00:03:23
Speaker
Assault on Precinct 13.
00:03:31
Speaker
I mean, Shaun of the Dead is a little like that. but i was From Dusk Till Dawn? Is
Comparing 'Sinners' to Other Vampire Films
00:03:35
Speaker
that what it is? from dusk to I'm thinking of 30 days a night, but du from Dusk to Dawn. Let me look. Dusk to Dawn movie.
00:03:44
Speaker
No. not that from Dusted on two criminals and their hostages unknowingly seek temporary refuge in a truck stop truck stop populated by vampires with chaotic results. Dude, I think you nailed it. That's what it is. That is it. Damn. All right.
00:03:58
Speaker
People listening are like, duh, but I don't fucking know. i haven't seen it. I remember this movie. I haven't seen it so long. It's a George Clooney. Quentin Tarantino's in it from Robert Rodriguez. Yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
From Quentin Tarantino. Wow, that's it. ah That's kind of the vibe I got-ish. I was like, okay, it's going to be like kind of like that. I mean, it... don't know. It wasn't a movie that like shows off acting to me.
00:04:28
Speaker
don't know if that makes sense to you, but... I guess, yeah. The acting wasn't bad. bad
00:04:39
Speaker
little Okay, i'll i'll I'll read you my note. ah yeah i'll give you one maybe i'll give it i'll give you i'll get I'll give you my quick overview first. Incredibly unique, immersive, and captivating. that's That's how I started it. All right, now go now let's go into your let's go into your notes.
00:04:55
Speaker
I want to hear it. It gets more silly the more the movie goes on. But in a good way. Because you realize what the movie is.
00:05:06
Speaker
Because I was thinking it would go a different direction. It doesn't get too absurd. So there's an element of so absurdity. It doesn't go full begonia or anything. Yeah.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
I wanted more like blues devilry association. Like if they laid into that lore more, you wanted like a live action princess and the frog.
00:05:33
Speaker
You wanted like the hoodoo hoodoo man. It just felt like it ended up being a classic vampire thing in the end. And I was like, Oh, okay.
00:05:47
Speaker
And then, and then it ends later. Like, post credits with a question of wanting immortality or not.
00:05:57
Speaker
So anyway, that's a spoiler alert. Sorry. Spoiler alert. I thought, and I think those are all fair criticisms. I think those are all fair. I think for me, I think this was like the perfect, perfect place in time set and setting for me of like, Oh, this hit, this hits so many notes of what,
00:06:17
Speaker
like i knew I knew that there was vampires in it. See, i didn't. I went in not knowing anything. i knew Madison didn't know there was vampires
Vampires as Metaphors for Cultural Identity
00:06:27
Speaker
in and She was completely blindsided. i knew there was something vampire-related. I did not know the extent like to what degree. and like the I thought the movie was very different. I expected it to be very along the lines of more of like a almost like a southern boardwalk empire or like...
00:06:46
Speaker
um
00:06:49
Speaker
mob, clan. I would have been fine with that. I expected more of that. I was very pleasantly surprised by what I got. i was I did not know what the fuck was going on. And I like that. That's what I like in instant movies like this where I'm like, I don't know what's next. And I think this...
00:07:11
Speaker
I know this movie doesn't work for a lot of people, but for me, it did. It hit on a lot of punches. I really liked the cinematography for me was ridiculous. Like the switching, like it would do the switch between like an IMAX 70 millimeter and like a Panavision 70 millimeter would go like almost square to like super widescreen, like during certain shots. I thought that was crazy. I thought like the, the way the music and the storytelling kind of,
00:07:41
Speaker
and like Not too deeply, but like it wove itself together kind of nicely, especially when it came to um the lead vampire um and kind of his Irish folk songs and kind of um the concept of kind of assimilating versus staying true to to who you are and kind of that dichotomy of vampires versus real humans. Um, and just once again, back to the cinematography, which is like, the colors just seemed brighter on this for then. Like I was expecting, um, so like I thought there was, okay you mentioned like the vampire lore going back to Ireland, ireland Irish songs, all that shit.
00:08:34
Speaker
It's great. It's fine. Like, I actually like that. But the movie, to me, started out over here. And then suddenly, it's like going way over here into the this setting of vampires and lore. I'm like, I like that, but I'm not sure this was the like the way to do it. i don't You know what I mean? like i don't yeah kind of I think is going this way, and then I'm suddenly pulled... oh it's it's about...
00:09:06
Speaker
this whole setting with vampires and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, to me, to me, the movie was about the main, the main character, the, the son of a preacher in his, his fork in the road between like following the, the religious life of the pastor and putting the devilish blues guitar down or, or leaning or leaning for, right? Maybe it's all been leaning in. And I think like the goofy rug pole vampire,
00:09:36
Speaker
like Like mechanism is just like the mechanism in which to test it in a in the most ridiculous way. If you look at vampires and in in really what he was saying, it's like.
00:09:49
Speaker
The the the plight of the Irish immigrants was was not was was different, like like. To be clear, different than the African-American experience.
00:10:01
Speaker
But also they weren't seen as white and they had tribulations and stuff as well. But he is the epitome. There's a vampire. He is the epitome of assimilation and letting go of your culture, who you are and becoming one with everything else. um And being the face of that, like he's like I think the the goofy vampire trope is just kind of like the ridiculous action piece.
00:10:24
Speaker
that is the means in which to test the main character of like, you know, we can show you rock and roll. We can show you blues. We can show you the drugs and the alcohol and the devilish ways. But what if we threw like a literal evil incarnate at you and, and through all these ridiculous scenarios of like the, the twins and kind of their, their mix too, which first of all, I love the fact that they always were matching colors. Like, I think that was, that hey that made it so easy. throughout the whole movie to show which one was which. Um, cause Michael B. Jordan is both.
00:10:59
Speaker
And like one of them is kind of, they're kind of both sides of that paradigm of like one of them wants to become assimilated and just become the, the epitome of like success, greed, vampirism, assuming whatever culture is there. And the other one is like staying true to the roots with kind of the, uh,
00:11:20
Speaker
um like his his wife, partner, or girlfriend, whatever. can't remember what she was. Anna, I think her name. The hoodoo mysticism of like like... They're both sides of that that thing. So it's like the the the vampire thing... All have say, the vampire thing is goofy. like it is It is a goofy mechanism of like, oh, I thought this was going to be a period piece about like starting this starting this this dance hall and doing connecting spiritually and, and sonically with like your heritage and your past and which side note, I thought it was really cool that they in, uh, introduced the kind of the Asian culture to kind of intermingle. Like when they did that big one, where they're playing the song and they kind of connected the different eras, and then they also kind of had the Asian culture in there too with the other two, and just all of that. It's like, oh, dude, this, yeah like, this movie is, like, I couldn't, you could have me write a million scripts and I would have never come up with this. This is insane.
00:12:20
Speaker
i I think if it could be, like, like a metaphor for, like, um for, like, the struggle of blues.
00:12:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. and african-americans just trying to be if you will um and i think that post-credits scene is the same thing it's just keeping blues alive because because you get people that are saying it's the work of the devil right it's the work of the devil so that that's where i thought they were laying in on it but then then They did. It was about that.
00:13:05
Speaker
But they just put this skin of vampires vampires and shit over it. Which helps push it but it's it makes it. It makes it palatable for, I think, a lot of... maybe i think that's what Kugler does really well.
00:13:21
Speaker
like I think he takes complex subjects and makes them... Not palatable. Palatable is the wrong word. Makes them more... um Maybe it's pal, maybe it's like puts an entertaining slant on it. So, cause like it could be like, you know, the color purple or like 12 years of slave and things like that. And, or any, anything based in the Jim Crow era South. But this is like, no, it's a fun, it's a, it's a music movie with crazy music, crazy visuals. And it's got fucking vampires and Haley Steinfeld's in it. And it's like, oh, I'd go see that. That's cool. And then you get in there, you're like, well, wait a minute.
00:13:58
Speaker
There's depth to it. Like there's, yeah. And you're like, Oh, this is deep. It's like, it's what, it's one of those movies that I, it's one of those movies that I'm like, the first time I watched, I'm like, that was neat. I was entertained. And then it's like,
Coogler's Storytelling & Technical Achievements
00:14:10
Speaker
feel like I should watch somebody else smarter than me. Talk about this movie. And and maybe it would make me appreciate it even more. And then you hear somebody talking about It's like, Oh, it's actually, that's actually pretty, you could, you could go really smart one of two directions. Yeah. You could go one of two directions thinking it's smart.
00:14:29
Speaker
that they did that um or not ridiculous. And you're like, why did you put absurd, absurd vampires over this great story of struggle of, you know, music and culture?
00:14:50
Speaker
i don't know. It's, it's,
00:14:55
Speaker
I mean, the acting was good. i don't know. The writing was good. i It has a scene where like one dude takes down like 30 clan members. I mean, that's that's at least something.
00:15:08
Speaker
So don't get me wrong. i am a fan. Like, I love John Wick. I love like Sisu or whatever that movie's called. That's ridiculous. That movie it was ridiculous.
00:15:21
Speaker
i watched that a while back. like i Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of like that kind of shit. The violence. like Fun action scenes. Ridiculousness.
00:15:31
Speaker
But...
00:15:35
Speaker
i don't know. This kind of like blends it in with like something deeper that I care about. and but I'm not sure I like it. I kind of like it. I don't know. I'm not i'm still on the fence with it.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah. and that's fair and that's And that's what's fun about these movies. It's like... like doing this. Cause it's like, it's 10 totally different movies. Oh, consumed in a, in tight succession.
00:16:02
Speaker
And it's like, they're all extremely different. So it's like, how do you even compare them? And like, and I've said this a million times. It's like the way that I, and you enjoy and consume content, movies, art.
00:16:15
Speaker
I think a lot of times we discount, or diminish our, our own mindset and set and setting at the time. It's like, I think for this movie, like it hit, it hit me at the right time in the right feeling, in the right mood where another day or another month, if we would have done this two months from now, it's like, it probably would have been,
00:16:40
Speaker
what Frankenstein or something. I've been like, no, it's just like, and that's how do you quantify? That's hard to quantify too. So it's, it's like, Oh, for me, this was like hundred percent smoke show.
00:16:53
Speaker
Love it. But for other people, they're like, it's not for me, man. The movie was ridiculous and dumb. And it's a struggle for me because I really want to be like that because that's how I usually am.
00:17:08
Speaker
But I think because it involves like music, and you our culture, and I'm just like, it pulls me in another way and I'm torn. So there you go.
00:17:21
Speaker
What do they say? Happiness is... like I love vampires and all that shit. Anyway, go ahead. what' Happiness is like ah expectation or reality minus expectation or something. The difference between reality and expectation. It's like, if you had a different expectation and you wanted more of the musical kind of side of things, more of that that history, than then yeah that makes sense.
00:17:48
Speaker
and And I went into it not knowing anything. So, but but it does lean heavily on the like music. Like, oh we're about to get a big at the beginning. Right. yeah Yeah. Like that's that leans heavily on that. And that's that's I think why. that's why Yeah. Dude, that's fair. That's totally fair.
00:18:07
Speaker
I did. I do hate it though. It's like. The part of me when like they were playing like the. The Irish folk song, like when they were kind of talking to Haley Steinfeld outside.
00:18:18
Speaker
I'm like. You know, that kind of this just shit kind of slaps. I kind of like the song. It's like, I shouldn't like it. I was liking that. Yeah, that's like, I don't I shouldn't like this, but like. I kind of I kind of do like that. Is that me is that was that wrong? Am I not supposed to like it?
00:18:35
Speaker
All the quote live music in that movie was really good. I loved it all. So it does help if you know a little bit about vampire lore, too, because I know Madison didn't.
00:18:46
Speaker
And when the big guy was standing at the door of their friend and he was like, why you just invite me back in? Invite me in. we do yeah I'm like i like, oh, he's a fucking vampire. Like, he's... Don't invite him in.
00:18:57
Speaker
I'm like, Madison was no she madisons like what do you what do you mean? I'm like, because he can't cross it. Like, vampires can't cross thresholds. Like, he's not a not a haint. Like, he's... You have to invite them in. Like... That's why I thought it funny when the the one lady was like, come and get me, motherfucker! Like... They're like, no. You motherfucker, why'd say that?
00:19:20
Speaker
I was like, God, that's that's the kind of plot and story that I'm looking for where it's like, you know, this is going a little slow. Like, let's just unleash it and just let's do this. Let's stop dragging it out. i'm Like, let's go.
00:19:32
Speaker
And then all hell breaks loose. Hey, I'm with you. I like, generally like that kind of movie. No, i but I get, I get, I'm not trying to convince you to like it. I get where you're, where it's falling short for you. um this one I do think a big a heavy part of this is just the visuals and the cinematography. like I can't help but like half of the time we're watching Best Picture movies, I'm like... I base 90% of my scores on cinematography. And just like the visual storytelling of it. um
00:20:07
Speaker
And I think that's why I was disappointed with Frankenstein. Because I was so i was looking for so much more. And there was just like... it looked like a cool coat of paint, but there was some stuff that was missing for me. But like, this was just like, I was just shocked. Like, I was not expecting this, this, this, this. this that this And it's like, well I feel like sinners had some, I could be wrong. Cause I saw it first out of all these movies.
00:20:30
Speaker
But anyway, I feel like there was some cool, like anime angle shots. Like we're like at the feet of somebody or, you know what i mean? Like, yeah, I did like that about it.
00:20:46
Speaker
Like the angles. Like when music music starts happening. Camera angles. Shit. You know what i'm saying? the The roof is on fire. And then we're... That one-er is... I think about that all the time. Where he starts playing and the roof catches on fire and they're turning around. All of a sudden there's like the Bootsy Collins-esque guitar player and the DJ and the dancers. And it's just kind of like this crazy melding of...
00:21:10
Speaker
Because I believe that was actually a one shot, a one shot and not like something where they like spliced it together. I believe it was actually a whole. Oh, really? And just I think like just a technically the technicality of that.
00:21:22
Speaker
I just get stuck. I just get stuck in like. They're like, how'd they do that? How'd they do that? Technically, like you got to get so many people to be coordinated. yeah And just like in in the music's like, because people are moving to the music. And then when they're beating the piss out of that guy for cheating, like and they're kicking him to the beat of the music, and it's like, I'm a simple i'm a simple man, and I like simple things. Especially when it's a one-er, and they're beating the shit out of somebody in the background to the beat of the music. That's cinema to me. Yeah, it is. And it's its there's methods behind all of it.
00:21:59
Speaker
Procedures they do, they make it possible, but it all requires a lot of work and coordination and teamwork and all that shit. and that's That's making a movie. And it can take multiple takes. like Imagine taking multiple takes for that entire sequence. We gotta start over. think like ah that soundsing make that something that's That sounds I would love to.
00:22:27
Speaker
i think it's one of the things where at I think I'd love to be a part of it and then I'm a part of it and it's like, well, wait a minute. This is work. Yeah. Wait a minute. Yeah. I'm here for, I'm here for, ah I'm here to like lightly talk about film with people who are at the same level as me. Y'all are like a little too serious about this.
00:22:50
Speaker
Let's take five. oh like Where's the the the food? This doctor again, he's going to do like 30 more takes. Fuck. Oh, yeah. And like, they'll be like, I need let like a little more, a little more feeling. It's like, what, what, it what does that mean?
00:23:08
Speaker
Like, what is faster and more intense mean? Like faster, more intense.