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Ep. 57: Dating red flags when your teen starts dating
308 Plays2 years ago
Is your teen dating? As a parent that's been one of my most confusing stages as a parent - how do you give your teenager privacy when they start dating, but still keep them safe? If you've ever wondered if your child's choice of partner might be unhealthy, this episode is for you.
Liz Merrill is a relationship and mediation expert who specialises in helping people who are in narcissistic and abusive relationships. Liz recently set up a campaign to highlight to young people the red flags they should be aware of if something doesn't feel quite right in their relationship, something which I think we would rather our teens learn sooner rather than later.
In this podcast episode Helen finds out from Liz what dating red flags we should be looking for as parents, and how to discuss these with our children.
You can find more from Liz on Instagram, and on her website Openspace Mediation.
More teenage parenting tips from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email teenagekickspodcast@gmail.com.
There are already stories from fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Podcast.co.
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Podcast produced by James Ede at Be Heard production.
He gives some tips on what to look for, when not to worry, and when to get some professional support for your child's sleep problems. He also talks through some sleep tips that might help, and strategies to help your teenager feel better about their sleep and mental health.
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Transcript
Introduction to Teenage Kicks Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
Balancing Privacy and Safety in Teenage Dating
00:00:37
Speaker
One of the things that can feel quite scary to parents is when their kids start dating. I don't know about you but I always find it so difficult to tread the right line between giving them privacy and making sure that they're safe. And I imagine it's even more worrying when you have an inkling that their choice of a boyfriend or girlfriend might not be the healthiest.
00:00:59
Speaker
Today I'm talking to Liz Merrill. Liz is a mediation professional who specializes in helping people in narcissistic and abusive relationships. She has a special interest in young people and teenagers, having had a few teenagers of her own. And she recently set up Love is Not, a website and campaign aimed at helping young people understand when they're in a controlling or unhealthy relationship.
Understanding Narcissistic and Abusive Relationships
00:01:27
Speaker
Her goal is to get young people talking about what makes a healthy relationship so that they know a red flag when they see one.
00:01:41
Speaker
Liz, hi, welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for joining me at an ungodly hour. Liz just told me before we started recording that it's 6.30 where she is, so she's done me a massive favor as I finish my working day. Thank you, Liz. You are so welcome. I'm so happy to be talking to you today. It's really exciting to have you here because
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah, my kids have just started. Well, one of mine has just started dating. And I'm and I know that all of her friends have lots of them are from it seems to happen younger and younger. I hear of relationships beginning in in secondary school, as we call it here in the UK. Even 12 or 13 relationships were beginning. And I'm well, I mean,
00:02:28
Speaker
They're relationships. They're different at each age and I'm learning as a parent what they look like depending on whether you're 11 and whether you're 16 and whether you're 21. It's all very different.
Teenage Narcissism and Generational Influences
00:02:43
Speaker
But they take it very seriously, of course, because it's their emotional development.
00:02:48
Speaker
So I know you're an expert in abusive relationships, narcissistic, controlling relationships, and we're going to get into that. But when you first contacted me, it was to say that you think that the signs are there even at those young ages of when somebody is not in a healthy relationship. And I'm thinking as I speak and say these words out loud,
00:03:15
Speaker
I'm imagining some listeners who are already thinking, yeah, yeah, I think I can see it. I'm really scared because I've seen some of the posts in teenage parents, but parents of teenagers, Facebook groups.
00:03:31
Speaker
And they're talking about their 16-year-old's boyfriend or girlfriend and how it feels controlling to them. And they're not sure what they want to, what they can do. So I'm interested to hear your take on this. Does it happen that someone as young as 14 or 15 can be narcissistic and controlling with their partner, with their girlfriend, boyfriend?
00:03:57
Speaker
Well, yes, absolutely. I mean, the thing about narcissism, people who have traits of narcissism, regardless of whether or not they're diagnosed with that,
00:04:10
Speaker
very often, you know, they come to this because it's generational. And because they saw that in their family of origin, and that's what was modeled to them. So excessive jealousy, they might have seen that, you know, in their parents or, you know, or a parent who's who's unusually moody, right. And and so that's something that's been modeled. And
00:04:41
Speaker
the early childhood trauma that they might have experienced having a parent who's a narcissist can shape a personality as they develop. I mean, I don't think that they diagnose young people with personality disorders, but you might see those red flags early on in younger teenagers.
Creating Safe Communication Spaces for Teens
00:05:06
Speaker
Certainly, regardless of whether or not somebody ends up becoming a narcissist or a borderline personality disorder, you can see all of these patterns of behavior. Like I said, even if they're not diagnosable or diagnosed ever, and they're not healthy.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah. So you were just saying to me that you've got four teenagers living with you at the moment. That's right. And you've also experienced a controlling or a narcissistic relationship yourself personally. So I'm guessing you must be
00:05:55
Speaker
Are you hypervigilant to it all? I don't mean that in a bad way because I mean it in a parent way because that's how I can tend to be. Are you really on sort of red alert for the signs in your children? I try to be. Well, my teenagers are a little bit older. I have two 19 year olds, a 17 year old and a 20 year old who's living with me right now because she's
00:06:24
Speaker
experiencing violence in her home. My boyfriend also has two teenage children. And that's why we don't live together right now. Right. It's too much drama. That would be a lot in one household. Yeah, there's a lot of teenagers in my house. But yes, of course, I mean, if I hear them talking, they are very close to me and they come to me, even now.
00:06:55
Speaker
with their teenage issues and sometimes issues with their relationships. And when I see things, it can be very alarming and we have conversations about what that means and do they recognize those signs and do they feel comfortable? And where I get nervous is when they don't talk to me.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I have a child who had an experience quite young and she was so afraid that she didn't tell me for a really long time. And when I finally found out,
00:07:44
Speaker
You know, I really, I don't know if I went overboard. I'm fairly protective. But you know, I learned a lot from that experience because my reaction was so extreme that it freaked her out.
Identifying Red Flags in Relationships
00:08:03
Speaker
It's really good to hear you say that because I think as parents we second guess ourselves all the time. I know I do and I'm always torn between how much
00:08:17
Speaker
how much, well, I get eye rolls and I don't want a life lesson. This is not an opportunity for a life lesson. I'm just trying to tell you something and offload how much I get involved and say, this is what I think you should do. And how much I remember myself and think they're teenagers, they don't want to hear what I think they should do.
00:08:39
Speaker
Absolutely. I'm going to go back to what you think those relationship red flags are that parents should be on the lookout for. But before I do that, how do you get your kids to open up to you with things like that?
00:09:00
Speaker
It's really a challenge, isn't it? And I mean, they go through different developmental phases, as you mentioned, and sometimes they're extremely close to me and they want to hang out with me all the time. And sometimes I'm an idiot and I don't know anything because I don't have something in the kitchen that they want. But like I said, that that one experience was very informative on so many levels.
00:09:30
Speaker
And I try, the sounds really rote, but it's true. I try really hard to create a safe space for them to talk to me. And I tell them point blank, and I signal to them that if they have something that they want to talk about,
00:09:57
Speaker
they can come to me and I will, I will listen to them and I will ask them open ended questions and I will not judge them. And, um, you know, they, because of the experience that we all had when we, um, when we left their dad there, you know, they, they saw what I was going through and
00:10:26
Speaker
We had a similar sort of experience, and so we have that bond, I guess. So they trust me to that degree, because I've always sort of been the parent that they come to. When something's gone wrong, they know that they have a safe space with me.
00:10:50
Speaker
But for me, now I have to walk the line between being a safe space for them and being a parent who is
00:11:05
Speaker
Who thinks it's okay for them to do whatever they want? Isn't that just the age-old parenting issue? I get this more and more as my kids get older. My oldest is 17 now. The people that talk to me on social media about their teenagers have got similar age children and younger
00:11:25
Speaker
finding it so hard to let them go and make their own mistakes. And I think that is the biggest challenge of parenting of all of them after years and years and years of being completely in charge of what their life looks like.
00:11:44
Speaker
to having to hand over to being not in charge of it at all and having actually, a lot of the time, very little influence over it. It's a really nice transition as a parent. It really is. It's scary.
00:12:00
Speaker
And it's something that I struggle with still so much. The thing that I struggle with more is what's happening that I never know about. Do you know what I mean? And if I allow myself to go down that rabbit hole, I can make myself crazy. Like you said, when I start thinking about things that I did,
00:12:21
Speaker
that I never let my parents know about. Well, exactly. And I think at that point, for me, I just have to think I'm on blind faith mode right now. I can't go there. I will ruin our relationship. If I try to go there, I'm just going to have to throw it all up in the air and trust the powers that be. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:12:43
Speaker
Liz, I really want to get to what you think the relationship red flags are that as parents we need to be aware of and on the lookout for when our children start dating and that maybe if there are teenagers listening they need to be able to see and think oh that thing that felt a bit weird the other day that actually is a red flag that's not just nothing. What would you tell people?
00:13:11
Speaker
Oh, there are so many things that can be red flags and aren't necessarily, but I think if you start seeing multiple red flags, then you really need to perk up your ears a little bit. Excessive jealousy is one thing that
00:13:30
Speaker
that is a huge red flag for me. If somebody that you're dating is really jealous of your other friends, is jealous if you look at another, you know,
00:13:45
Speaker
partner that they view as threatening or another person that they view as threatening, a love interest, another guy or another girl, jealous of your family. Believe it or not, that's really common with people who have deep seated insecurities that could be rooted in a personality disorder. They have a real fear of abandonment. And so when they see
00:14:09
Speaker
you know, their boyfriend or girlfriend wanting to spend time with other people, it can excite this excessive jealousy which causes them to be controlling, to give them a hard time. Why do you need to go spend time with your friends? You know, you're always with your friends. Why don't you spend time with me? And that can also turn into
00:14:39
Speaker
someone who doesn't respect boundaries, right? If they're excessively jealous,
00:14:46
Speaker
um, and they become controlling then sort of the knock on effect is, is to, is to not be, um, good with boundaries. So those are all three red flags that are kind of wrapped together and are kind of connected. Um, having someone who's who looks at your phone, who's trying to get into your social media.
00:15:12
Speaker
This is bigger and this is an issue you see more and more is digital security or digital stalking.
Projection and Gaslighting in Relationships
00:15:21
Speaker
And I see it in the older people that I work with and I see it in the younger people that I work with. And again, it's all about control.
00:15:31
Speaker
Another, another red flag is obviously pressuring somebody sexually. That's, that's, you know, that's, that's across the board. It's not just in sort of narcissistic abuse relationships, falsely accusing you of things is
00:15:55
Speaker
It can be connected to projection, right? Tell me more about that. What does that mean? So projection is another trait that you see in people with narcissistic tendencies, and not just that, but in other disorders.
00:16:23
Speaker
But it's rooted in people who kind of view their feelings as facts, right? And if you are, that's kind of the way that I think about it. So for example, if I'm having a conversation with a partner who
00:16:47
Speaker
who says, you lie all the time and you are always looking at other men, but I don't and I don't lie, but he does. That's projection. So they're projecting what they do onto you. And a lot of times they actually seem to believe it. So there's this cognitive
00:17:05
Speaker
disconnect, which is really confusing and can cause you to question yourself because they seem so certain, right? So that's also kind of related to gaslighting, right? Which is making you question your own reality by accusing you of
00:17:29
Speaker
Like I said, an example is accusing you of looking at other people that you think are attractive, other guys or other girls, even when you don't do that, but they do. And they talk about it all the time or they say, you're so mean to me. You are so mean all the time.
00:17:52
Speaker
Even if you're not, even if you are starting to placate them, even if you are walking on eggshells so that you can't be accused of being mean, if someone's constantly telling you you're mean, you're going to start questioning yourself. Am I mean? Well, I better be really careful with what I do and say because I don't want to upset them.
00:18:12
Speaker
And now we're starting to get down this road where there's this dynamic that blooms into a controlling partner and a partner who is
00:18:31
Speaker
You hear this term all the time, who's in a trauma bond. That's a term they throw around here a lot. And that really sort of indicates a codependent personality. And of course, young people can be vulnerable to that because often if you see somebody who's narcissistic, the other piece of what they're presenting is really successful, really confident, really awesome, really fun.
00:19:01
Speaker
And that can be very attractive. And you can really like want to attach yourself to that. And once you've done that, then if this person does have narcissistic tendencies, then you start seeing these red flags, they start popping up.
00:19:18
Speaker
and you might ignore them because it's so fun to be with them, or because they're really popular, they're really cute, or they seem super smart. I can see that, and that's a classic story, isn't it? I'm just wondering, as a parent, if your child is in a relationship that looks like that and the alarm bells are starting to ring,
00:19:41
Speaker
How would you tackle that? Because at that point, it's very difficult to wade in and say, that person isn't good for you. Are you not seeing the things that they're doing? When your child is in love, in romantic love, and yeah, smitten with them. Yeah, it's hard. It's so, so hard. And one of the things that I have found is
00:20:10
Speaker
Like I said earlier, asking open-ended questions, right? Using empathy, as Chris Voss calls it, tactical empathy, to get them to talk in a way that's where they don't feel defensive, right? Because if you put them in a place of defense, that's going to push them even farther away. So asking open-ended questions,
00:20:40
Speaker
showing empathy and attention, getting them to talk to you, getting them to reveal inconsistencies in what that person is saying, getting them to open up, and then probing there, not by throwing why questions like, why do you put up with that?
00:21:01
Speaker
Why are you, why are, why do you feel like, you know, why, why, why puts people on the defense? But if you're asking them like, well, how does that, you know, how does that make you feel? How does that, right? How, how does that look? If he, if he, if he tells you, he doesn't want you hanging out with your friends,
00:21:23
Speaker
What happens then? Yeah. How do you feel? I think it's a great one because they may not even tell you, they may not want to share their feelings with you, but it's just planting the seed that this is about their feelings and their feelings are important. And maybe they notice it the next time it happens.
Empathy and Strategic Questions to Help Teens
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think I think you're right. I mean, I think you can sort of guide a conversation. And it's very hard when you yourself are triggered when everything inside you wants to wait.
00:21:56
Speaker
I know, definitely, but it's so impossible. I think you're right, it is about just getting them to notice how it makes them feel and then giving it time and being there when inevitably things
00:22:12
Speaker
get tough for them. I wanted to just pick up on, you kind of, you nearly got there with the thing that's in my mind. Is it called love bombing? When people really shower a person with attention and compliments and affection and make them feel super, super special and then further down the line start to isolate them from their friends and family. And that I've read a few times has been the beginning of
00:22:42
Speaker
very abusive, very dangerous, physically dangerous relationships for people. Is there any way to help somebody escape that when you can see it for what it is and they can't? Well, I mean, when you're talking about younger people, I mean, obviously,
00:23:05
Speaker
a lot of times as a parent, you are in a position where you can say, no, you just can't go out. Sorry, you can't go out and see that person. It's harder with social media, of course. Yeah, I'm not sure whether that's ever going to work for me. Yeah, it's a classic teenager thing, you tell them they can't do it, they'll find a way. Exactly, exactly. Yes, that's that is one extreme. And the other thing, like I've said is,
00:23:31
Speaker
not shaming them, not criticizing them and believing them. Because a lot of times, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's in a relationship with a narcissist,
00:23:48
Speaker
or someone who, you know, is has has one personality for the public and one personality for private people, friends won't won't believe it, they'll be like, he's not he's so nice, or she's so, you know, she's, she's so great. She has so many friends, like, it's hard to believe that, you know, if you are, if you're not believing, that is going to cause cause someone to like,
00:24:17
Speaker
further internalize what's going on, questionnaire reality, or making excuses for them saying, Oh, they probably just had a bad day. Or, you know, they probably just don't have a love at home that you have. And that might be true. I guess I'm always interested in what turns somebody into
00:24:39
Speaker
an unhealthy individual or the way they behave is unhealthy. And as you alluded to earlier on when you said,
00:24:48
Speaker
and maybe because they've grown up with a fear of abandonment because of how things have been in their home. And I'm going to be completely honest about myself. The first serious relationship I had, I can look back and see some behaviors in myself in that relationship that I'm not entirely proud of. And looking back, knowing what I know now, having been through lots of counseling, I know that I didn't feel
00:25:16
Speaker
as valued and important growing up as I probably needed to be. Without getting into all the deepest, darkest secrets of all that work, I can see that when I found somebody who was putting me first and was my person,
00:25:34
Speaker
I didn't want any risk of that being taken away from me, so I can see where it comes from. It doesn't necessarily come from a bad place. That person is quite likely very damaged themselves, but that isn't for our young people to take on.
00:25:52
Speaker
No, no, it's true. And it's it is very sad. And I think that's one of the things that causes people who get ensnared in these kinds of relationships, see and feel bad about and I've experienced that like, oh, your, your life, your childhood was so hard.
00:26:14
Speaker
You know, you had these bad things happen to you. I am going to save you with my love. I am going to fill that void. I am going to make you feel loved unconditionally. I'm going to make you feel safe and protected at all times.
00:26:34
Speaker
That is not possible. Do you know what I mean? You can never feel that early childhood trauma void. You just can't. Having someone demand unconditional love is a scary place to be because, of course, you can always love someone, but you don't
00:27:03
Speaker
You don't want to be with somebody unconditionally. And that kind of becomes blurry.
00:27:10
Speaker
right? That kind of gets blurry. Yeah. It's messy, isn't it? But I think it's really good to just reiterate that point. You can't fix someone. They have to see their own issue for what it is and go fix themselves. And you can't solve somebody else's childhood trauma, somebody else's toxic learning patterns. You
00:27:36
Speaker
They may have a really good reason for it. If you're an empath, it's going to be really difficult not to fall into that trap of thinking you can rescue them. I think it's just really important to underline that. You just said you can't fix them.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's right. And you, you know, you'd mentioned love bombing. And this is, this is one of the this is a tactic, right? That can be used. So if if you are in a relationship with someone who's abusive, and they treat you poorly, and you're like, this is I don't want this anymore, I'm out. And then they they're like, Oh, this person is getting ready to leave me, this person's pulling back, I've got to get them back. Controlling didn't work. I'm going to get them back by
00:28:20
Speaker
Like, going overboard, giving them things, complimenting them, putting them on a pedestal, making them feel like the best person in the world. That's very seductive, right? And you're like, oh, wait, wait a minute. We're soulmates? I'm soulmates with this person who's so charming and
Disengaging from Control with 'Gray Rock' Method
00:28:40
Speaker
attractive. I'm the only person for him. I'm the only person who will save her life.
00:28:44
Speaker
I better, you know, I better go fill that role because it makes you feel powerful and it makes you feel great. Yeah. And then, you know, the cycle continues, then you can know that that person will start to, you know, return to, you know, emotionally abusive behavior patterns. And it goes on and on and on. And, and
00:29:13
Speaker
It shapes the way that you think about yourself and it shapes how you think about relationships and it can really kind of carve narrow pathways in your brain, right? That dynamic. And that's one of the reasons why it's difficult to pull yourself out of that, especially if you've had any kind of experience like that at home.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yes, if you're just repeating patterns that you've learned from your parents. You've had your own experiences of a relationship like that and you've had lots of experiences of helping other people to cope with and extricate themselves, presumably from that kind of relationship. What would you say is the most important thing to
00:30:13
Speaker
to focus on or remember when you realize that you're in that situation and you need it to be better. Yeah. One thing that I find is very important is to be able to disengage because, you know, we haven't talked so much about this, but a lot of times when you're in this type of relationship and someone is
00:30:43
Speaker
trying to control you. One of the ways that they can do that is by forcing you to interact with them, right? By forcing you into an argument by forcing, forcing you into a position where you're defending yourself. And they are accusing you. And are there
00:31:06
Speaker
they're not respecting your boundaries and so they're constantly kind of entwined emotionally in you. They might be texting you 50 times a day. They might be overwhelming you with emails or demands on your emotional energy. If you can disengage from that, that is the beginning of
00:31:33
Speaker
creating some separation, right? So that's why I don't know if you've heard this term, gray rock. Have you heard that? No, what's that? Okay, so, so gray rock is a term that is used to describe
00:31:50
Speaker
how it's, it describes a communication style. And it's called gray rock, because the idea is that you make yourself as boring as a gray rock, right? So if someone's like coming at you, instead of saying, Oh, no, that's not what I meant. Oh, no, I'm sorry about that. Or, you know, no, I didn't look at him. I promise you, you just say, Okay. Okay.
00:32:15
Speaker
you know, give a thumbs up emoji or just say something very short. So you're not engaging in that. You're not, um, you're not defending yourself. You're not explaining yourself. You're not trying to make them feel better. You're just like, sure, or whatever, or, um, you know, just something very terse, very, there's nothing there for somebody to disagree with.
00:32:41
Speaker
Right. Yes. Yes. It doesn't fuel the conversation. Right. Yeah. Cause if you say, I wasn't looking at that person, of course, yes, you were, you know, now you're off to the races. But if you're like, okay, or whatever, you know, you're, our kids shut us down all the time with that word, right?
Arguing with Emotional Manipulators
00:32:59
Speaker
Whatever. Where do you go after they say that? And you can use this, um, this style of communication, um,
00:33:09
Speaker
to shut down these conflict cycles, right? That it takes practice. Yes, because it's very easy to get triggered and feel defensive, isn't it? And then you're off and the thing never ends. Yeah, yeah. So, so gray rock is a great way to do that. And it's a way of disengaging from that because you are, yeah, you're not you're not giving them anything to push back on. Yeah. You know,
00:33:39
Speaker
sometimes that has the desired effect, sometimes it makes people more angry. Yes, I can see that too. Yeah, because they need some fuel, right? Yeah. Because even if you're fighting, that means that you're still connected to them, right? Yeah, I've also been told,
00:34:01
Speaker
In fact, I was talking about it this morning with somebody, the parent-adult-child way of communicating that if somebody is being childlike, childish, childlike in their communication, which these people are because they're demanding and accusing,
00:34:22
Speaker
then it's really easy to knee-jerk into critical parent mode and say, no, I didn't do that and you're behaving poorly. And that fuels it too. And actually, if everybody can communicate in adult mode where you're talking about facts and how you feel and restrict it to that, then you get much further. And also, if you're the only one in adult mode,
00:34:51
Speaker
It's a similar thing. The other person begins by really fighting against that, getting really angry. I'm not getting the response I'm used to getting here. I'm going to keep on pushing. I'm really going to raise the bar here. And if the person that they're dealing with stays calm and tries to stay adult, they eventually are left with nowhere to go and they just fizzle out.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Something that I see over and over again is people who have disordered personalities, traits of personality disorders, often think that their feelings are facts. Do you know what I mean? They believe that they're facts. And you see this in not just relationships in your personal life, but you see this in politicians and you see this
00:35:43
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and in the workspace. Absolutely. And if you are arguing with somebody who doesn't recognize facts,
00:35:54
Speaker
you're not going to get anywhere, right? Because if your fact is I've been at home all day watching TV and their fact is they feel like you've been on social media all day flirting with people. You know what I mean? They are feeling angry and resentful and jealous.
00:36:19
Speaker
And that's, yeah, the story they create around that is true for them. Yeah. So, so when you start noticing that you're having arguments about feelings as facts, that's a really good time to take a step back and look at what's going on. Because when you aren't, when you aren't both able to agree on what facts are, you're gonna have a really messy time.
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I really like that. That's so...
00:36:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's really common. It's actually also quite difficult to recognize until you work on it yourself. And I think that takes a big amount of maturity. And I wonder if that's half the problem for some of our young people is that brains are, you know, we did no disrespect to them at all. Their brains are not fully developed until they're not capable of some of that emotional maturity that they one day will be as yet. And they're learning.
00:37:21
Speaker
these tactics and strategies and relationship patterns in quite a messy situation already. Is that something that they can change as they go on? Is the narcissistic 16-year-old who's super jealous and a bit controlling
00:37:40
Speaker
Are they going to come out of that naturally, or are they destined, as they mature, or are they destined to always struggle with that, do you think? Oh, that's such a big question, isn't it? Because if you talk to one expert, they'll say one thing and another another. But I think by and large, the consensus is that if somebody develops narcissistic tendencies,
00:38:08
Speaker
they develop, you know, they have the seed of that early on, right? And then it grows. And by the time someone is a full fledged adult, and is a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies, there is very little hope that they will overcome that. And it's, it's sort of a catch 22, they have that as a sort of shield or a mask to prevent them from having to acknowledge things that are very painful.
00:38:38
Speaker
And so that shield prevents them from self-reflection and the only way you can really unroot that is by self-reflection, right? But it's a protector part of them and they can't
Challenges in Leaving Abusive Relationships
00:38:59
Speaker
It's, I don't, I mean, I think most people would say it's really not possible. And that's really sad. And the thought that it is possible is one of the things that keeps people in these relationships for so long. Like this time it's going to be different. This time she's going to change. This time he's going to see the light and go to therapy.
00:39:24
Speaker
and do what he needs to do to improve himself so that we can have this happy, healthy relationship that we both want. It's so sad. It's very, very sad. It's a vicious cycle, definitely. It is. One thing I've learned in 50 odd years is you're never going to change another person. They are who they are. You can tell them that they need to change and they can choose to listen or not, but they have to do that for themselves, by themselves.
00:39:53
Speaker
That's right. So one of the things that, you know, like I've told you, I work in this space with adults who have been in these types of relationships since they were teenagers.
00:40:06
Speaker
And it's because of all the things that we've been talking about, right? You get enmeshed in this other person, and it's really hard to get out. Sometimes when you try to get out, they pull you back in with love bombing. Sometimes when you try to get out, they pull you back with emotional or physical violence or verbal violence. And it's scary. And the longer you're in it, the harder it is to imagine being able to extricate yourself from that.
00:40:32
Speaker
And a lot of people just shut down entirely. They go into this fight, flight, freeze, or fawn mode, right? That makes it so challenging for them to leave. When I see these patterns in young people, it alarms me, right? Because I don't want them to be in this relationship for 20 years. And obviously, as a parent,
00:41:02
Speaker
If I'm trying to tell my child, now you can't date this person, as we said, they're gonna say, yes, I can, excuse me, right? And you can do everything that you can by asking open-ended questions, believing them, sharing your feelings, sharing your concerns, being honest with them. And sometimes that helps and sometimes that doesn't.
00:41:31
Speaker
It's one of the things that I that I think is also really important is being there for your peers, understanding understanding this, even if you're not in this really this kind of relationship, you see a friend, you can help them by identifying these things and pointing these things out and being a sounding board.
00:41:54
Speaker
A lot of times young people don't know how to support each other in relationships because they're young and they haven't been in them. Do you know what I mean? And they might scratch their head and go, why do I never see my mate anymore? They're always with their partner or their boyfriend or girlfriend. That doesn't feel right. But oh, well, if you see that as a red flag, then talk to them about it, right? Help them see what you're seeing.
00:42:22
Speaker
if you have a niece or a child in the neighborhood who is close to you, you might have a different kind of leverage than mom does. Do you know what I mean? I often
00:42:38
Speaker
A really good point about friendships as well, though it's really difficult sometimes at that age to know if you're saying the right thing, but somewhere deep down it's going to make them think, and if that gives them the extra impetus to make that change, then it's worth doing. It's a really good point. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I really try to.
00:43:06
Speaker
push education and that's why I started this social media campaign because... Yeah, so tell me about that because that's really interesting. How do people find that and what are you doing? Yeah, well, it's still in the early stages and I did it because of what we've been talking about because I want
00:43:33
Speaker
young people to recognize these signs, either in their own relationships or in the relationships of their friends. So they can see what's going on and have open eyes and be able to talk about it and recognize
Peer Support in Recognizing Unhealthy Relationships
00:43:50
Speaker
it. So I started a social media campaign called Love is Not.
00:43:56
Speaker
And really the idea that I have is to get it to kind of catch on as an idea, as a hashtag. And I want it to be really driven by kids, right? So I have a partnership with a large nonprofit in Denver called Project Pave. And together we're creating
00:44:23
Speaker
The young people there and I are creating social media posts, videos about what is a healthy relationship, what's not a healthy relationship, how to recognize signs of unhealthy relationships, how to manage them, how to deal with them, how to talk about them, how to ask for help, where to ask for help, who you can talk to.
00:44:49
Speaker
what are the resources where you live? Because I know no country has this problem like the United States and England certainly don't, but here there's such easy access to guns and interpersonal violence and murder
00:45:10
Speaker
accounts for something like 18% of homicides in this country is. Domestic violence is a big thing. It's not the same because we don't have the gun laws that you have. I don't know what the statistics are, but it's one of the highest risks as a woman particularly is from your partner.
00:45:42
Speaker
It is, but I haven't created a lot yet, because like I said, this is still always the agency. If there is anybody out there who is interested, I would love it if they reached out to me as a collaborator, because it takes a village, as they say. I have a website, and you can go to it by typing in loveisnot.co.co.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, so it's not. Is that how you go? It's
00:46:10
Speaker
And it's got information there. I'll put your links, I'll put your Instagram link as well and your website in the show notes for anybody that's listening that wants to have a look. You can scroll down and click through directly from the show notes.
00:46:27
Speaker
But yeah, that sounds like, so we have one in the UK. It's a very different thing. It's called Everyone's Invited, and it's for reporting sexual abuse in teenagers in schools and on universities and educational institutions. And it arose a couple of years ago out of a particularly awful incident that happened here in the UK. And it sounds like in a similar vein, something that I imagine
00:46:56
Speaker
a lot of people would feel they could join with, unfortunately. But as a result, you create the hype around... It's such a great slogan because love is not these things. And I can imagine you getting quite a big following behind it. Well, that's the goal. And the goal really is to get it to the point where it's a conversation between young people, not
00:47:25
Speaker
Coming you know coming down from you know, a middle-aged woman like me to young people like you know what I mean? I want it to be peer-to-peer
00:47:34
Speaker
You know, because I think that's, you know, young people really are in that stage where their peers are the most important thing to them, right? And they will listen to a peer where they might not listen to their mum. Definitely. Absolutely. I've just gone to your website and it's perfect. It's exactly what people need to hear. Love is not manipulative.
00:48:00
Speaker
I wish I'd been able to hear people say that because I knew that in my own young relationships, but I still probably didn't have the social acceptance to do anything about it.
00:48:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's perfect. Thank you. I've been working hard on it and it's definitely a labor of love. Is there anywhere else that you think would be good to share where people can find you or anything else they can get involved in before we finish off? Yeah, I'll just make sure that you have
00:48:36
Speaker
contact information from me and these links. And then if someone wants to reach out to me, they can find me there. Thank you so much for talking about it today. It was really great to listen to and hear your thoughts. Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:49:00
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode.
00:49:29
Speaker
If you have a story or suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes difference to me on this journey. See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.