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The Element of Surprise with Zach Smith
202 Plays16 days ago
We apologize for the delay, but we needed time to bring you a special episode. Normally, our guests are Titans of Industry, Fashion Gods, and Scions of Style. But, today, we bring you a story of how to find yourself through clothing. Even how to develop style as an outsider, on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, on a chicken farm. We welcome our proto-intern, Zach Smith to The Bunker, as we contemplate early HBO TV, Growing Up On The Internet in the 90s, The Unexpected Influence of “Concert Dress,” Hip-Hop’s Indelible Influence on Prep and Ivy Style through Andre 3000 and Kanye West (RIP). We Return to the Trenches of High School, The Inception of the Blogosphere.
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Transcript
Introduction to Apocalypse Duds
00:00:00
Conor Fowler
Hello, hello. Welcome to Apocalypse Duds. I'm Connor Fowler, and this is Apocalypse Duds, as I said.
00:00:12
Matt
And I am Matt Smith.
00:00:14
Conor Fowler
And that's Matt Smith.
00:00:14
Matt
Thanks.
Birthday Banter: Are Birthdays Arbitrary?
00:00:16
Conor Fowler
Before anything, it was Matt's birthday yesterday. And that, I think, is special because it's good.
00:00:23
Matt
Yeah.
00:00:25
Conor Fowler
It's good. It's good. It's nice. It's happy. We made it another time.
00:00:30
Matt
I went around the sun 365 days against my will.
00:00:32
VA Zach
Okay.
00:00:34
Matt
It's OK.
00:00:34
Conor Fowler
Well, like I said, it's an arbitrary measure and I think it becomes more clear every year. And so it's even more worth celebrating because what does it matter?
00:00:44
Matt
Yeah, maybe maybe you're correct.
00:00:47
Conor Fowler
I guess we'll never know.
Introducing Zack Smith: A Gen Z Voice
00:00:50
Conor Fowler
I wanted to bring a special, very important guest on the program since we, people have long highlighted the absence of the youth voice in our program, of course, Matt, pretty old, me pretty old. ah So we're thinking the Gen Z report with Zack Smith, our young buck on the bleeding edge of clothing and culture, scrolling Discord and Instagram endlessly, so you don't have to. Who do you love, ladies, gents, theys and thems? Welcome, Zack Smith, who has the same name
00:01:34
Conor Fowler
Almost, it's mad.
00:01:38
VA Zach
No relation.
00:01:39
Matt
never never yeah No relation. And if your middle name is Alan, that would be wild to me because that is also my middle name.
00:01:48
Conor Fowler
You don't have to out yourselves back.
00:01:50
VA Zach
Yeah, it is.
00:01:52
Matt
Is it really?
00:01:52
VA Zach
Well, I'm going to take this time to make a controversial yet brave statement. Yes, I am a homosexual.
Zack's Identity and Generational Perspective
00:01:59
VA Zach
ah ah And I do appreciate you ah having me on.
00:02:07
VA Zach
I will say I don't want to bury the lead or misrepresent myself. I have the voice of Gen Z. I have the temperament of Gen Z. I am firmly a millennial, so basically it it's stolen valor.
00:02:19
Matt
ah Okay, nice, nice, yeah.
00:02:24
Conor Fowler
I just thought you were, I just thought you were in touch.
00:02:30
VA Zach
Well, not in that way, but guys.
00:02:30
Conor Fowler
Right? Your pro discord, your pro discord, your pro ah video content, all this kind of stuff. And that's a, that's a, that's a young man's game.
00:02:43
VA Zach
It definitely, it's a number, it was an emerging field.
00:02:44
Conor Fowler
Young person's game.
00:02:48
VA Zach
And I think it's one that I guess through a series of fun circumstances, it's one that I've really responded well to. Not to say that you guys like aren't great because I find this podcast absolutely incredible.
00:02:56
Matt
understandable.
00:03:02
VA Zach
ah Wonderful listening.
00:03:02
Conor Fowler
Whoa there.
00:03:04
VA Zach
Wonderful way to spend a workday. The only podcast that matters, ah check trademark pending.
00:03:10
Matt
ah
00:03:11
Conor Fowler
but Right, right, right.
Navigating Contemporary Content Overload
00:03:15
VA Zach
ah But I do think in terms of actual contemporary content, I'd like have my ear on the ground, my nose to people's feet or what have you, not in a weird way.
00:03:27
Matt
Totally, yeah.
00:03:29
Conor Fowler
Sometimes you say this stuff and I have no idea what you're talking about.
00:03:29
VA Zach
but
00:03:32
Conor Fowler
And I don't mean that in a ah rude way because you are very like communicative, but I have no idea what some of this shit is and there's so much of it.
00:03:43
VA Zach
Well, it fashion is in menswear. I'll insert the subset to begin with because like women's where i don't that's above my pay grade.
00:03:56
Matt
yeah
00:03:56
VA Zach
But there's a lot of content.
00:03:57
Conor Fowler
or so Or something, it's, yeah.
00:03:57
Matt
yeah
00:04:01
Conor Fowler
It's scary, it's got a lot going on.
00:04:06
VA Zach
And I mean, even though a lot of it is BS or stuff that you probably already know or address of advertisement.
00:04:18
VA Zach
There's enough stuff of value that it's certainly worth holding your nose and doom-scrung a little bit.
00:04:22
Matt
Yeah, yeah. Totally.
00:04:24
VA Zach
um I have found maybe a happy medium between doing that and doing all sorts of other things such that I'm not just a terminally online person all the time, just most of the time.
00:04:39
Matt
but Right.
00:04:40
VA Zach
hi
00:04:41
Matt
That's that.
TV Preferences and Quality Content
00:04:41
Matt
That is the balance to be online, but not ah so online that you know every single thing, like everything. No offense to her. Everything I know about Chaperone is ah stuff that I did not sign up to learn.
00:04:58
Matt
And and there's a million celebrities and and other things like this, like all of this shit I learned against my will.
00:05:05
Conor Fowler
Chap is cool though. I mean Sheila got invited to the invite of the White House and said fuck you that You know, I do you know why she said fuck you Yeah,
00:05:06
Matt
Oh, totally.
00:05:11
Matt
and I'm not saying that, like, any of these people suck necessarily so ah because of Palestine. Yeah.
00:05:20
Conor Fowler
and I'd say that's tough shit
00:05:22
Matt
Oh, yeah, it's tough. I'm just saying that, like, like as a ah
00:05:24
Conor Fowler
but prescription
Affection for Transformers Series
00:05:27
Matt
podcaster that I love said once on an episode, the TikTok search bar is not a place for a person over the age of 40, and I stand by this statement.
00:05:38
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah, I know I don't I don't I don't have it.
00:05:39
Matt
I just, yeah.
00:05:41
Conor Fowler
I don't have it.
00:05:41
Matt
yeah
00:05:41
Conor Fowler
I don't have it. I don't like videos
00:05:42
VA Zach
I am teetering on getting a TikTok.
00:05:43
Matt
I have Yeah but the The things that I get forwarded are nine times out of ten an animal like cute related content, which is right up my alley, but like I'll see that shit posted on Instagram explore at some point so I don't I don't need to dive in and like
00:05:47
VA Zach
um I get forwarded stuff from my sister who is older than I am and who basically says like so don't do it. right
00:06:12
Matt
We'll get into this in a bit, but like I don't understand Reddit. I don't understand Discord. um And like for the menswear community, those are two big places that like now everyone is.
00:06:26
Matt
And like maybe I could could have adapted at some point, but like that's just not my shit.
00:06:27
Conor Fowler
Well, yeah, sort of.
00:06:33
Matt
so
00:06:34
VA Zach
I mean, it's it's interesting how it sort of developed because for a long time it was blog driven and based on written word.
00:06:35
Conor Fowler
You heard it here.
00:06:44
VA Zach
So blogs like this Rhetorialist, a certain other podcast that used to work at Complex magazine.
00:06:45
Matt
but
00:06:49
Conor Fowler
continuous learning.
00:06:53
VA Zach
ah Even Ethan, who you had on previously with Street X, Brezatura, it was largely textual.
00:07:03
VA Zach
And Reddit, I guess, was an extension of that because you would just write a long post and hopefully get a bunch of upvotes of karma.
00:07:09
Matt
Right.
00:07:10
VA Zach
And thanks for the gold kind stranger.
00:07:10
Matt
Right. Right. See? yeah i I don't know how this works. I don't know what an upvote or a karma, and that's like I have a vague like vague sense of what it is, but I have no idea how it operates.
00:07:18
Conor Fowler
Yeah, you do, Matt. Yeah, you do.
00:07:23
Conor Fowler
Well, it's not complicated. It's a vote. It's like a you're they're ranked by the number of votes that they get and the post of the most votes wins.
00:07:34
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:35
Conor Fowler
You minus a vote by a down vote.
00:07:35
VA Zach
There's a little bit more nuance to it, but that's basically it.
00:07:37
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:07:39
Matt
yeah Yeah, see, I come from the world of message boards where like you know there were six or seven topics that I like went into and followed all the time. So the the modern menswear digital landscape is just not a place for me.
00:07:56
Conor Fowler
and I think it used to be a lot different.
00:07:59
Matt
It's it, it's it, time we'll get into it. But yeah, Zach, thank you for coming on.
Zack's Relocation and Perspective Shift
00:08:05
Matt
um What we usually like to open with is where do you live now and where are you from?
00:08:13
VA Zach
So currently I live in Arlington, Virginia, and that is just off of the west of Washington DC.
00:08:26
VA Zach
But I originally grew up in and then just outside of Salisbury, Maryland, which is on Maryland's eastern shore.
00:08:31
Matt
Okay.
00:08:33
Conor Fowler
I always forget that. but That's so crazy.
00:08:37
VA Zach
ah And where exactly I grew up depends on the person that I'm speaking to. ah If you have no idea of geography on the East Coast, then it's, oh, do you know Ocean City, Maryland?
00:08:53
VA Zach
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like half an hour away from there. Oh, that's so cool.
00:08:55
Matt
Right. Right.
00:08:56
VA Zach
Did you go to the beach? That sort of thing.
00:08:59
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:08:59
VA Zach
If if you're from Maryland, then I'll say guess I'm from Salisbury and that's a very novel, like they'll nod, they'll say, oh, cool.
00:09:09
VA Zach
If they are from the shore, then it's like, oh, I'm off of 401 in Salisbury and Parsonsburg.
00:09:10
Conor Fowler
Great steak out there.
00:09:17
VA Zach
And people usually get the gist of
Growing Up 'Terminally Online' in Rural Maryland
00:09:20
VA Zach
that. I grew up ah in the city of Salisbury, but then my family moved out when I was fairly young, ah way out into the rural area, near Purdue's factory.
00:09:33
VA Zach
so We often got the smell of chicken manure.
00:09:37
Conor Fowler
Beautiful.
00:09:39
Matt
The fucking worst.
00:09:41
Conor Fowler
Yeah, if you've been out there, it's truly like...
00:09:45
VA Zach
It was horrible for your news. um But in fact, there also weren't a lot of kids out there at the time, so there wasn't really a lot of socializing that it did. So ah I started my trajectory of being terminally online mostly by being terminally online growing up in the 90s. And that's where I got introduced to things like message boards, like what Matt had said.
00:10:13
VA Zach
ah TV, of course, ah and, you know, ah my parents' HBO subscription. So seeing stuff like...
00:10:22
Matt
Nice. nice
00:10:24
VA Zach
Absolutely. You know, seeing The Wire Live, seeing um Oz Live, stuff of that nature.
00:10:30
Matt
Yeah.
00:10:34
VA Zach
Whether or not that's actually suitable programming for a 10-year-old, I leave up to people's personal tastes. I'm not here to attack parenting. But I think it was a form of socialization that replaced maybe what I would have gotten from interacting with kids, and I'd like to think it turned out pretty darn well, so.
Influence of TV Shows on Media Understanding
00:10:55
Matt
I'm feeling Oz is one of those shows like i've I've seen a little bit of it But I feel like that is one of those like Not revolutionary shows but one that like if you see it as ah at a young age, and you're just like, oh, okay cool but yeah Yeah, it's a turning point in a certain way
00:11:10
Conor Fowler
Well, there's a lot of, like, sexual explicit sexual violence in it, so it's, like, really, like...
00:11:21
VA Zach
Yeah, there's both sexual violence and violence violence and there's definitely conversations.
00:11:25
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:11:29
VA Zach
conversations I wouldn't say conversations, it's more like ah object brutal violence involving people of different races. ah Yep, ah Chris Maloney's in it, J.K.
00:11:37
Conor Fowler
Chris, Big Dick Maloney is in that show.
00:11:43
VA Zach
Simmons is in it. um
00:11:45
Conor Fowler
Fucking jk sims is in the show as a white supremacist like gang leader, right?
00:11:45
Matt
shit yeah that's for you yeah did hold on hold on did dick wolf produce this that tracks
00:11:51
VA Zach
Yes, it's got actually a pretty stellar cast. I think BD Wong, who would later be on Order.
00:11:57
Conor Fowler
Yeah as HBO did and does basically for the most part have excellent casting Yeah, I believe so And you can tell too it's like it's like so much more visceral than
00:12:07
VA Zach
mean
00:12:15
Conor Fowler
his ah his his amazing work on Moan Order. I mean, like it's a hectic show. It's a chaotic show. It's a very I was like extremely depressed when I watched it. It was really heavy, more depressed than usual.
00:12:30
VA Zach
And mind you, and there there's counterbalances like me Rita Moreno has a fairly prominent part and she's a national treasure.
00:12:36
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:12:38
VA Zach
But even with that, the show is heavy and the show should be heavy because it's about criminals.
00:12:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah, amazing.
00:12:44
VA Zach
ah
00:12:45
Conor Fowler
Well, it's about prison.
00:12:48
VA Zach
Yeah, I think the show does a very adequate job of and highlighting the fact that while there are many, many things mess up with the prison system in this country,
00:13:00
VA Zach
that these people are not necessarily good people ah
Portrayal of Prison System in 'Oz'
00:13:06
VA Zach
independent of that.
00:13:06
Conor Fowler
That's not the point of the show! That's not the point of the show!
00:13:10
VA Zach
But it's exacerbated because of how bad prison is.
00:13:10
Conor Fowler
It's that it's ah putting anyone in prison is too bad!
00:13:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah, and it's like these people these people who are these people who are ah incarcerated behave the way that they do because the system is forcing them to.
00:13:15
VA Zach
not that i would
00:13:23
VA Zach
Not that I would It's one of the fundamental questions. I think the system exacerbates, the system exacerbates and causes a lot of the behavior, especially with ah the main, with Keller and a Beecher.
00:13:39
VA Zach
ah But I think there's enough breadcrumbs, there's enough loose thread that you can start to wonder, well, how much of this was in these people to begin with?
00:13:50
Conor Fowler
nature nurture kind of deal.
00:13:50
VA Zach
um Yeah.
00:13:52
Matt
Right.
00:13:53
Conor Fowler
And that is the that is like the sort of fundamental question, I guess. To everything.
00:14:00
VA Zach
and the best part about Oz is that Oz is it such a heavy show even when it's funny because there are moments where it is like actually funny ah that assume the monologues guess some of the wordplay yes it makes the show like the wire look
00:14:12
Matt
Yeah.
00:14:12
Conor Fowler
Yeah, and like the Greek chorus, I think that opens the show. Yeah.
00:14:25
VA Zach
Pretty dark TV comparison even though a bunch of other screwed up stuff is happening on that as well.
00:14:27
Matt
ah Right, right.
00:14:30
Matt
I mean, we've talked about it before, but like, Oz, I, you know, from what I know about it and what I've seen, it, it and the Sopranos and a lot of the like, TV from the late 90s, early 2000s, like, that gave birth to what we saw from Mad Men, and we did a fucking three episode, you know, long, long thing of Mad Men.
00:14:51
VA Zach
Oh, I heard that retrospective.
00:14:53
Conor Fowler
Take it out.
00:14:54
VA Zach
I had thoughts, but...
00:14:56
Matt
Yeah, yeah, but you know like like this this was like a wild, I don't know, 15 or so years of like legacy television re like reinventing itself, essentially.
00:15:08
Conor Fowler
The Renaissance, or however you want.
00:15:10
Matt
Yeah, yeah. And you know like I'm not really a big TV person, but I feel like this is what this is what so many things have been chasing since, and it's it doesn't get close.
00:15:12
Conor Fowler
Yeah, however you want to package it.
00:15:21
Conor Fowler
Yeah, if you want to watch TV, that would be the time of TV to watch, I think.
00:15:25
Matt
ah totally
00:15:26
Conor Fowler
a
00:15:26
VA Zach
And I think Prestige TV back then, part of it is that HBO had a certain amount of cash it in the late 90s and early 2000s to be able to present stuff like this matter of factly and then people would just be like, oh, but then they'd have to sit on it and really wonder why they're reacting to that.
00:15:35
Matt
Right, right.
00:15:45
VA Zach
um It asked a lot of the viewer. And back then, I think the viewer was more willing to give that, if that makes any sense.
00:15:56
VA Zach
As opposed to something like Lost, for example, which was the mid-2000, it asked a lot of its viewers, granted it had some questionable writing, questionable plotting, ah but it didn't hit in the same way because I think it asked a lot of its viewers while also sort of trying to force feed the answer, while pretending not to.
00:15:56
Conor Fowler
You can.
00:16:21
Conor Fowler
yeah And it was bad. yeah Yeah, I mean, they can't do that. It's like you can't like have a like the hidden clues. You know, it's like if you want to do that sort of thing fine, it's not as serious. It's like it makes it a different it makes it it it makes it like cable show.
00:16:44
VA Zach
And there's nothing wrong with being a cable show. Like, I like cable shows. um But I think if you're going in with a sort of vibe and a sort of expectation of your audience, then it's worth sort of sticking to that. It's worth um holding fast to that, even if you're facing pressures from like a network or if you're facing pressures from an audience who wants a bunch of answers when you know in your heart and in your soul it's a story that you don't want to tell give away until six years from now.
Importance of Strong Narrative Structures
00:17:19
VA Zach
um I think good story speaks for itself, and a good story can and should be able to stand on its own merits.
00:17:29
Matt
yeah
00:17:30
VA Zach
An audience will find it, an audience will appreciate it, and the people that don't appreciate it, then there's a bunch of other shows.
00:17:37
Matt
Yes.
00:17:40
VA Zach
Sorry. yeah
00:17:41
Matt
Right. Right. Yeah. This is why I love Michael Bay's Transformers because it it's it's a beginning.
00:17:47
Conor Fowler
Matt, that is the most elegant fucking point the way that you made that point ever. Perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect.
00:17:54
VA Zach
We're good. Can't do anything else after this. We're set.
00:17:57
Conor Fowler
But and the real the real fans of the show will know Matt loves Transformers.
00:18:03
Matt
dude i do love transformers i grew up on transformers angie i joe and all this other shit but yeah like i'm i'm a so yeah yeah it's got but it's got like a beginning a middle and an end and a lot of like wild shit in the meantime and it like yeah it might go a little long sometimes but like i can do two and a half hour i can't i can do two hours
00:18:09
Conor Fowler
No, it's good. I think it's great. I think it's awesome.
00:18:11
VA Zach
No, it legitimately is good.
00:18:12
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:18:15
VA Zach
um
00:18:28
Conor Fowler
baby wow
00:18:29
VA Zach
Well, movies are too long. There's a pretty lengthy conversation on, I think it was MFA, but it might have been somewhere else, but this the thesis was movies are too long, but it's okay if there's some quality stuff happening in
00:18:34
Conor Fowler
Yeah, fuck that.
00:18:40
Matt
I can see that.
00:18:47
Matt
Yeah.
00:18:47
VA Zach
the additional hours that may not rate.
00:18:48
Conor Fowler
Between robots.
00:18:49
Matt
Yeah. Right.
00:18:51
VA Zach
If it's character building cool, if it's plot building cool, if it's just an hour of misdirect or an hour of flash substance, then then I don't need that.
00:19:03
VA Zach
I'm going to fall asleep.
00:19:04
Matt
Yeah.
00:19:04
Conor Fowler
So the point is you need to have stuff in your movies beginning to make it good.
00:19:04
VA Zach
or
00:19:12
VA Zach
You need something. Like, i need a I need something. You need a framework. Either actual Well, lower is not low.
00:19:17
Matt
Yeah. yeah
00:19:19
Conor Fowler
Well, you yeah we know that you need to to to to to to... What do you mean we expect less of our audiences now? People are forced to have lower expectations now and to did not demand less, I think, because they've been retrained.
00:19:40
VA Zach
So... It's fine to have basic narrative basic narrative structure. I don't think anyone's arguing against that.
00:19:49
Conor Fowler
Well, how do they make movies three hours long?
00:19:49
VA Zach
It's not...
00:19:51
Conor Fowler
They fill them with dumb shit.
00:19:55
Matt
Or in Michael Bay's case, they blow up shit, which is kind of fun.
00:19:58
VA Zach
but um Same with ah Mad Max.
00:20:00
Conor Fowler
Pyrotechnics count?
00:20:02
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:03
Conor Fowler
That was a fair movie. The first one was a fair movie. It was fine. It gave you what you were looking for. I thought, like, I didn't expect it to be, like, revelatory.
00:20:18
Matt
Oh no, not at all, which is why I enjoy it.
00:20:21
Conor Fowler
Yeah, I thought it was nice. It's like sometimes like a movie that is whatever is like is like fine.
00:20:28
Matt
yeah It's fun. It's, it's dumb. Like it's enjoyable. That's, that's kind of what I, I don't know what I enjoy with watching for the most part.
00:20:37
VA Zach
I'm okay with a dumb movie. If it's clear that it's gonna be a dumb movie, or if it's a dumb movie done well, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with two hours of dumbness.
00:20:45
Matt
Right.
00:20:47
Conor Fowler
What about white chick?
00:20:47
VA Zach
If it's...
00:20:48
Conor Fowler
What about white chicks? the Wayne's Brothers white chicks.
00:20:51
VA Zach
Um... So... Well...
00:20:56
Conor Fowler
I feel like everyone has a deep relationship with this film.
00:20:59
Matt
I do not.
00:20:59
VA Zach
I think that's... that's a statement, isn't it? Um...
00:21:02
Conor Fowler
But you know what I mean?
00:21:03
VA Zach
So...
00:21:03
Conor Fowler
I feel like people are like, they really love it or they really hate it.
00:21:04
VA Zach
I...
00:21:09
VA Zach
I appreciate the commentary that they put in that movie. I think for its time, absolutely hilarious and a great movie.
00:21:20
Conor Fowler
Yeah, it was really sharp.
00:21:22
VA Zach
um I think if it were being made now, I think they you would want to sort of retool a little bit.
00:21:29
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, minorly.
00:21:30
VA Zach
um ah da And not in a like hashtag, we got to placate the woke mob.
00:21:30
Matt
right yeah
00:21:31
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:21:36
VA Zach
But like some of it really is kind of tone deaf, and there's some definite, um some of the jokes about gender just don't really age well. ah ah Some of it really leans on some not so great stereotyping of black men and white women interactions or black men and black women interactions.
00:21:48
Conor Fowler
I definitely have not. recently.
00:21:56
VA Zach
And I think there's ways to tell the same point um without resorting to that.
00:21:56
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah.
00:21:58
Matt
All right, yeah.
00:22:04
VA Zach
But like the jokes are hilarious.
00:22:04
Conor Fowler
but Don't involve either of the Waynes brothers.
00:22:09
VA Zach
I mean...
00:22:09
Matt
Well, one ah one of them came out like in like staunch support of like trans rights, which I thought was really cool.
00:22:15
VA Zach
It's
00:22:18
Conor Fowler
Really, which one?
00:22:18
VA Zach
very nice of him.
00:22:20
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think maybe, uh, fuck, I don't remember if it was, uh, which member of the Wayans brothers that was, but they maybe had like.
00:22:27
Conor Fowler
Damn.
00:22:28
VA Zach
And to clarify, do you mean Damon Way and Gwen Junior?
00:22:30
Conor Fowler
Major Payne comes out in support of trans rights.
00:22:35
Matt
but What was that? that
00:22:36
VA Zach
To clarify, Demi Damon-Wings, or Damon-Wings Jr., his son, who is also famous and also funny, but, uh...
00:22:44
Matt
no i think i think it was no it was marlin so it was marlin i think uh he has a like a trans kid yeah and he was basically like why are we why are we arguing about this dumb shit like yeah so hats up the way his brothers they they rule
00:22:46
Conor Fowler
I didn't know that he had offspring.
00:22:49
VA Zach
Whoa!
00:22:56
VA Zach
Oh, wow.
00:22:57
Conor Fowler
Fuck yeah, man.
00:22:58
VA Zach
Nice.
00:22:59
Conor Fowler
Hell yeah, that's awesome.
00:23:01
VA Zach
All about it!
00:23:07
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. Yeah, you you've made a fan of me again, Mr.
00:23:11
VA Zach
Hell yeah.
00:23:14
Matt
Nice.
00:23:15
Conor Fowler
Wayans. I'm no longer expecting white chicks too.
00:23:20
Matt
Yeah, please, please no, please no. ah
00:23:22
VA Zach
Now that you've said it, um it's watching it come in 2025.
00:23:25
Conor Fowler
Did they make it already?
00:23:28
Matt
Oh, God damn it. If we're correct about this.
00:23:30
Conor Fowler
Well, you heard it here first.
00:23:33
Matt
Yeah, like I.
00:23:34
VA Zach
I would like royalties, Paramount, Viacom, Warner Brothers, Zaslav,
00:23:36
Conor Fowler
This is both a pathetic.
00:23:38
Matt
Please, God, there we go.
00:23:40
VA Zach
ah
00:23:40
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, it's both a pathetic and prophetic show.
00:23:44
Matt
Yes, yes, truly. Zach, what what was your journey into the menswear world like? ah what What was the capitalist?
00:23:55
VA Zach
So I think there's two separate sort of things because on the one hand, I grew up, I played the viola throughout school.
00:24:05
Matt
Oh, hell yes!
00:24:07
VA Zach
And because of that, I often had to be in concert dress, so white shirt, dress pants, et cetera. So I was used to the notion of being in sort of formal wear and used to the notion of having to dress up a certain way and sort of making the mental connection between getting dressed up and getting dressed
Fashion Influences from High School in the 2000s
00:24:33
Conor Fowler
Huh.
00:24:34
VA Zach
formally.
00:24:35
VA Zach
um But beyond that, I was very much a product of the mid 2000s, so the resurgence of preppy style.
00:24:35
Conor Fowler
Hmm.
00:24:44
Matt
Oh yeah.
00:24:44
VA Zach
ah So my school was big on Hollister. It was big on ah American Eagle. um Salisbury at the time didn't have an Abercrombie, but people went to the flea market and somehow found old lacrosse shirts.
00:24:57
Matt
Nice.
00:24:59
Conor Fowler
Mmm, yeah.
00:25:01
VA Zach
You know, khaki shorts, berries, flip flops were a thing. um It was a weird thing to you because it technically wasn't a part of of my high school's dress code, but people just sort of took it as their quote, unquote, act of rebellion, even though it wasn't that in the slightest.
00:25:21
Conor Fowler
Mmm.
00:25:21
VA Zach
um
00:25:22
Conor Fowler
Hm.
00:25:23
VA Zach
I latched on to that.
00:25:23
Conor Fowler
Did anybody think it was edgy? Like...
00:25:27
VA Zach
Well, I think that I went to a school that although it was majority-minority, um the specific circles that I ran and the specific classes that I took, it was largely white.
00:25:36
Conor Fowler
Mm hmm.
00:25:43
VA Zach
So I think in a way, people saw it as their little cheeky way of
00:25:45
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:25:50
VA Zach
ah taking it to the man or something like that ah whether or they just sort of were like we're just gonna wear whatever we want who cares which they were right hi exactly um
00:26:02
Conor Fowler
Nothing says rebellion like Hollister, yeah.
00:26:06
Conor Fowler
that's so funny and what do you think what do you make quickly of the the rebranding of prep and sort of terminology like because I don't even really when I think about Hollister in that I think like mall brand that is like a separate thing from prep which of course it has a prep identity preppy identity but it's you know I feel like it's Earth's, it's, it's a universal way, but it's kind of not like a lot of people come on the show and talk about that. So I don't know. I was just, just I was just like wearing a band t-shirt at that time.
00:26:40
VA Zach
yeah Well, I think Prep P, the actual aesthetic, I think it did gain some legs in the mid-2000s. Part of it was um the resurgence of like that sort of pop culture becoming Envo again. Part of it certainly was people like Kanye West and Andre 3000.
00:26:59
Conor Fowler
Sure.
00:26:59
VA Zach
um And so I think people were trying to emulate that style however they could. And if you were in middle America, the best that you could do was Hollister.
00:27:12
VA Zach
The best you could do, or The Gap, or Abercrombie, if you're telling this cool enough.
00:27:12
Matt
right right
00:27:18
VA Zach
um ah Somehow...
00:27:20
Conor Fowler
So with that, cause like I, all of this is completely foreign to me, frankly. Like I was wearing like Kurt Cobain cosplay, you know, I was like, I don't, I never shopped at those stores because I was like, they have perfume on them.
00:27:35
Conor Fowler
Do you know what I mean?
00:27:36
VA Zach
the stories were terrible!
00:27:36
Matt
Right, right.
00:27:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's what I, and I don't mean that in a like, Oh my God, it's too gay.
00:27:38
VA Zach
The dark...
00:27:42
Conor Fowler
I mean, like this is, this is too much for me.
00:27:43
Matt
it smell you You mean it smelled like shit?
00:27:46
VA Zach
yeah
00:27:47
Conor Fowler
Right, exactly, it was horrible scent.
00:27:48
VA Zach
it is it is a I don't understand how people shop in this I don't understand how I went in this stores back then I don't understand how people did they smell horrible they smelled like a locker room they were usually dark
00:28:02
Matt
Yeah.
00:28:05
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's and that's what's the reverse kind of scent thing, like the Abercrombie locker room kind of scent conflation.
00:28:06
VA Zach
ah
00:28:16
VA Zach
But I guess it smelled like Axe, and i guess the I guess they did a good enough job of sort of braiding that as a sort of end of the way of how to live, which in hindsight is very, very weird because, you know, I've been in a locker room where people used Axe instead of showering.
00:28:20
Matt
yeah
00:28:21
Conor Fowler
Exactly.
00:28:40
VA Zach
It's not a pleasurable experience.
00:28:41
Matt
but not at all
00:28:42
Conor Fowler
Well, that's the old lie, right? I mean, that's the, if you use this product, people, women, whatever will fuck you.
00:28:52
VA Zach
Yeah, it's...
00:28:52
Conor Fowler
And I think that that's like the, at least in 2004, that was the messaging, right?
00:28:56
VA Zach
Right.
00:29:00
VA Zach
I think it was a very sort of simple way of saying, if you do this, you will be cool.
00:29:05
Matt
yeah
00:29:05
VA Zach
And I think it's a very...
00:29:05
Conor Fowler
Yeah, you'll fit in, you'll have friends, whatever.
00:29:05
Matt
right
00:29:07
VA Zach
Yeah, it's a simple message that people very quickly jumped onto, especially because it wasn't actually that difficult to adopt. You wear a color for a polo shirt or two. ah You wear some khaki shorts. You wear some shoes that don't have laces. You spray a bunch of axon. And you call it a day. ah I sometimes did that. I, of course, was hamstrung by the fact that growing up, my family was not well to do. My parents were great. They did the best they could. They were working class people.
00:29:44
VA Zach
um in in a small town. So we did what we could in terms of access, but it did a lot of substitutes like wearing a colorful t-shirt or ah button downs instead of foolish shirts, stuff like that. um But beyond that, I think high school for me was just a matter of trying to get through it as best I could. Again, it's mostly black in a series of white classrooms. um My favorite high school memory, i think and I've said this in other places, I will be kind and withhold the name of the offending teacher.
00:30:27
VA Zach
um we
00:30:29
Conor Fowler
We can believe it on the other end, you know.
00:30:31
VA Zach
now i value weak i i i do The person had good intent, but we read Tom Sawyer and then we started Huckleberry Finn.
00:30:32
Conor Fowler
but No, I'm kidding.
00:30:42
Conor Fowler
Oh, no.
00:30:42
VA Zach
And I was asked in front of our class if I was OK with um Mark Twain's excessive use of the n-word.
00:30:55
Matt
Oh.
00:30:55
Conor Fowler
Jesus Christ.
00:30:56
VA Zach
And this wasn't a one-on-one conversation. This is like during in class. I'm like, um
00:31:06
VA Zach
OK, I guess, because I i do. Before it's time, it was commonplace. And also Mark Twain just liked the word a lot.
00:31:17
VA Zach
so And also, ah you know, it's 2004.
00:31:18
Matt
Right.
00:31:23
VA Zach
I'm 15 or 16. I am fighting of losing tide here. So I said, like, cool, great. um I think they made a very large show of not saying the word whenever they were asking people to read it out loud.
00:31:39
VA Zach
And at the time, I always thought that was just very, very odd decision to pay lip service to the fact that the word is offensive, but also continue reading it as if there's no issue with saying it now.
00:31:54
Matt
Right.
00:31:55
VA Zach
But it's hard. i can see I can empathize with someone in the position that they're in. But also, I think it's sort of intuitive to just not do that.
00:32:09
VA Zach
um
00:32:09
Matt
Yeah yeah.
00:32:12
VA Zach
And I think there's sort of a lot of, there's a lot of that sort of othering, notness not as blatant as that example, but it came up and eventually sort of get used, I got used to it, I found wait outlets for it, I eventually found friends who were reasonable people, and then I graduated.
00:32:37
VA Zach
and that I entered college.
00:32:39
Conor Fowler
but wow dude
00:32:44
VA Zach
But um that was pretty much how I dressed for quite some time. So I graduated high school in 2007, and up until 2012, I was still firmly dressing similar to that. ah ah Eventually, I sort of I got more casual because I realized it's college, no one actually cares what you're wearing, so it was mostly t-shirts and jeans and such.
00:33:06
Conor Fowler
Wow dude.
00:33:09
VA Zach
But no real developments in style until I moved to DC in 2012.
Academic Shift to George Washington University
00:33:15
VA Zach
I didn't really have an idea of what I wanted to do after I graduated with a bachelor's, so I made the interesting choice to apply for master's programs.
00:33:28
VA Zach
and George Washington made the interesting choice of accepting me. ah So that's not nothing.
00:33:33
Conor Fowler
Hey.
00:33:36
Conor Fowler
That's not nothing, right? I mean, that's significant.
00:33:39
VA Zach
And it's very interesting.
00:33:39
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's liberty but that's like one of the best universities in the country, in the world. So congratulations.
00:33:43
VA Zach
It's one of the best, but for math. Not so great. It's a good math program. um
00:33:51
Conor Fowler
Well, it's like, but people do that all the time.
00:33:54
VA Zach
Yeah.
00:33:54
Conor Fowler
People end up in schools that are, it's not their specialty exactly, but it's like, oh, it's Princeton, right? It's like, they're not known for their whatever, but who gives a fuck?
00:34:00
VA Zach
Right.
00:34:03
VA Zach
I think.
00:34:03
Conor Fowler
It's the most expensive university in the country, right? Still?
00:34:05
VA Zach
Yes, and I think the I should have realized there was something up when I was sort of obsessively calculating how much I could write off of the student loan refund that I got.
00:34:06
Conor Fowler
Hell yeah!
00:34:19
VA Zach
Meanwhile, I'm seeing someone drive up to campus in D.C. Park on Street in a Lambo. Just like, wait, what?
00:34:28
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:34:30
VA Zach
And then they walk out and they talk about, oh, yeah, got world civs, such a bummer.
00:34:30
Conor Fowler
Sounds about right.
00:34:35
VA Zach
It's like, oh, garre you're like 19. Cool. Great.
00:34:41
Conor Fowler
That's the kind of person you want to rub shoulders with.
00:34:42
VA Zach
Oh, my God. ah
00:34:46
Conor Fowler
So you would have been going for a master's in mathematics or is it something more specific?
00:34:50
VA Zach
So what if in mathematics and it would have been applied math at that because at the time, at first, And in my admissions statement, I had mentioned wanting to go into academia because of representation, um which admirable, I was kind of talking out of my ass a little bit. And I'd say I quickly pivoted to sort of wanting to go into applied math to get a job in or related to the government sort of
00:35:25
VA Zach
due to my time while I figured out my next move. um It is a very haphazard way of planning a life, I will say, but I had a sort of relative idea, get a job in the Fed somehow, get tenured or work out the GS ranks, dot, dot, dot prosper.
00:35:46
VA Zach
um
00:35:46
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:35:49
VA Zach
And mind you, i had and I had the sort of mental image of that and also thinking, you know, If I'm going to do this, I should also start dressing better. So I took the money that I had, I went to Georgetown, started shopping.
00:35:59
Conor Fowler
six
00:36:04
VA Zach
But as I had no idea of what I'm doing, I went to places like H and&M.
00:36:09
Matt
Right.
00:36:09
VA Zach
and And the Gaff, Banana Republic, found the most garishly bright colored things. ah Basics, some blazers, Sheena, stuff like that. ah But just a shot equality and me not knowing any better, me just looking at things like Tumblr, me looking at things like the Sartorialist blog, ah seeing that sort of thing reflected, I'm thinking, OK, cool. I'm good. I'm stylish. um you know I don't necessarily have the funds that these people do, but that's OK. I don't live in New York, but I could.
00:36:48
VA Zach
um But that was fine. And then I sort of had a flaming meltdown the next year and dropped out. But in hindsight, I think we don't, we, society, we ah we don't really do enough of a service to people in explaining that you can change your mind and you can always
00:37:01
Conor Fowler
You're allowed to do that too.
00:37:19
Conor Fowler
No service whatsoever.
00:37:21
VA Zach
You can change your mind, you can decide that something is not right for you and it doesn't make you a bad person or devalue any of your accomplishments.
00:37:28
Conor Fowler
A quitter.
00:37:31
VA Zach
but
00:37:31
Matt
Totally.
00:37:32
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, fuck that. We're against that sort of thing on this program.
00:37:35
VA Zach
But... Appreciate it. um But it's definitely something, a train of thinking that still pervades society and it sort of impacts things like how we dress and how we act in social circles as well.
00:37:49
VA Zach
um
00:37:50
Conor Fowler
You look like a dropout, Mr. Sweater vest.
00:37:55
VA Zach
This, sir, is a fleece knit, just to clarify, not a sweater.
00:38:01
Conor Fowler
I love it. I love it. I love it. I think I saw it.
00:38:05
VA Zach
ah Also, it was from an estate sale. it was um I don't think the person is dead, thankfully. I would feel very bad if that were the case, but um it was cool. It was five bucks, so I put it on.
00:38:17
Matt
Last!
00:38:18
Conor Fowler
Hell yeah. Five bucks is great.
00:38:19
VA Zach
and Mind you, around this time, I looked up MFA. I went on Reddit. I saw that there were people talking about clothes. I threw my hat in the ring and some truly godawful fits.
00:38:33
VA Zach
It posted them to to ah the what are you wearing today thread and was shocked that people weren't telling me how great I was dressing, ah even though the height of my fits were wearing like a striped shirt from American Eagle and then a pair of critter pants from Ralph Lauren.
00:38:38
Conor Fowler
Hm.
00:38:51
Conor Fowler
and
00:38:52
VA Zach
ah The fits were not great. um But at that point, my concern was mostly like, how am I going to make a living given that I'm not in school and I'm drowning in debt?
00:39:05
VA Zach
Worked at Whole Foods and somehow amassed a fairly lengthy tenure there. That was a very interesting development, partly because they don't have a dress code so I could wear whatever.
00:39:18
Conor Fowler
through the whole transition, right?
00:39:20
VA Zach
What's up?
00:39:21
Conor Fowler
Through their transition or whatever, through their like corporate intercession.
00:39:23
VA Zach
Oh yes, so I worked pre and post Amazon buyout. ah Yes, there is a definite shift in the company culture, but even before then there is a shift and I will say Partly for the benefit of my friends who still work for the company and partly because, you know, I'm never closing a door fully, you get what you get out of it.
00:39:48
VA Zach
I do think um you just have to be mindful of where your money is going if you're a consumer and where your hard or work is going if you're a worker.
00:39:48
Matt
Right, right.
00:40:01
VA Zach
um
00:40:02
Conor Fowler
We wouldn't want to slander a billionaire on this program.
00:40:03
VA Zach
and if you're
00:40:06
VA Zach
Well, I mean, like, I have a laundry list of billionaires I could slander, but...
00:40:12
Conor Fowler
Bezos is on the bottom.
00:40:12
VA Zach
I mean... You know, Bezos is... hovering. He's, like, at... you know, Mount Whitney.
00:40:23
VA Zach
there's
00:40:23
Conor Fowler
We don't know the kind of stuff that he's doing ultimately is what the reality is.
00:40:25
VA Zach
There's...
00:40:27
Conor Fowler
We don't know what he's doing.
00:40:27
VA Zach
Yeah... ah He's Pike's Peak, um...
00:40:30
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:40:31
VA Zach
in Colorado. There's a guy from South Africa. He's Everest.
00:40:35
Matt
Right, right.
00:40:36
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:40:37
VA Zach
You know, South Africa guy, Everest, he's the Mariana Trench, Bud Belton, that sort of thing.
00:40:38
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:40:41
Matt
Well,
00:40:44
VA Zach
um
00:40:46
Matt
truly.
00:40:47
VA Zach
But I think as the saying goes, there are no good billionaires. So I think my dream in life ah first would have been to be a kept man, which that didn't work out.
Style Evolution Through Male Fashion Advice
00:40:59
VA Zach
But um if I'm able to live comfortably, then that would be the goal. But I digress.
00:41:04
Matt
Right.
00:41:05
VA Zach
ah
00:41:08
VA Zach
and MFA was interesting. They really sort of championed first the basic bastard where you just wear like, you know, chinos, button down, all that fun stuff. And that was easy for me.
00:41:20
VA Zach
It was cheap for me. They said go to Uniqlo. And so I bought a bunch of stuff from Uniqlo, wore that a bunch. um But I would also find weird stuff, you know, a polo shirt that has a bunch of monkeys on it, or
00:41:35
Matt
Right.
00:41:37
VA Zach
OCBD with camels on it or like red pants. Just some weird way so that I could stand out even if a little bit from this prescribed list of things that you should do. um and Honestly, life was pretty good and then a pandemic happened.
00:41:56
Matt
Right, yeah.
00:41:57
VA Zach
ah I got promoted during COVID. I went into lower management for Whole Foods during COVID. and It is many words, the basic sentiment was, we have no idea what's happening, um but good luck.
00:42:14
Matt
Sweet, yeah
00:42:16
VA Zach
and so clearlyy ship it you know it and The best part was unlike most people who have the benefit of working from home or God forbid, getting COVID and just quarantining.
00:42:32
VA Zach
I somehow, some way, was healthy enough to go to work every day during that whole time. Lost my mind, lost my marbles. um I lost a significant amount of weight during those two years.
00:42:44
Matt
yeah.
00:42:46
VA Zach
um And then eventually, the 2022 hit, we realized that the world's not ending in a and I maybe I just don't want to work for a billionaire.
00:43:02
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:43:03
VA Zach
and and so i qui um you know There are some very interesting circumstances that led to quitting that we can maybe go off like for because it gets a little interesting. But ah I realized it was not a good fit for me at the time. I quit. I had a fun couple of months of being unemployed. And in those fun couple months of being unemployed, I rediscovered Reddit.
00:43:27
VA Zach
I found Ethan's blog. I found...
00:43:31
Matt
thin
00:43:33
VA Zach
Ethan's great. I met him last month in New Work. He is basically as you would expect from any of his writing or any of his other podcast appearances.
00:43:43
Matt
yeah
00:43:45
VA Zach
um I saw Yokohama menswear. Alex is his actual name. he had a very sort of well thought out post about how he views clothes in the sort of intersection between actual aesthetics like workwear and ivy and stuff of that nature and then also qualities of clothes like worksmanship and fabrication and stuff of that nature and that sort of got the ball rolling for me to think about well what what do I want in that
00:43:59
Matt
That's awesome!
00:44:22
VA Zach
So first it led to me buying like designer clothes because of course I assume that designer things equal quality and of course the very first designer I bought was Higa Boss not realizing their very very lengthy problematic history throughout time.
00:44:41
VA Zach
ah
00:44:41
Matt
Oh yeah.
00:44:43
VA Zach
yeah ba I don't want to say
00:44:44
Conor Fowler
Hmm You did not see that coming
00:44:47
VA Zach
You know, I don't want to say they're Nazi sympathizers, but also... um Yeah, they're... Yeah. Again, I bought Volatiyaga right before that whole crisis, that whole controversy occurred with their advertising, and then I promptly had a few months sweating out if and how I was going to resell some of the stuff without looking like someone that, let's say, condoned.
00:45:12
Matt
yeah Right.
00:45:17
VA Zach
uh the abuse of children and i bought arena um well i didn't buy it from them directly i found it secondhand but i found a pair of arena sneakers and then i found yeah well for me they would have been
00:45:20
Conor Fowler
Why are you buying? I mean, what are you buying from Balenciaga anyway?
00:45:33
Conor Fowler
Okay, yeah, that's what I think. I was just wondering what the piece was. Like, was it something extravagant? Was it something elaborate? I don't know. I guess the arenas kind of are.
00:45:44
VA Zach
ah For me, it would have been extravagant. It was a giant chunky asphalt gray wedge sneaker, which forts, they're cool, um but they're very, very hard to style. And I tried my best. I wore them basically with every single thing I could possibly muster, even though a pair of solidly asphalt gray sneakers, not the most versatile thing.
00:46:11
VA Zach
um But then I realized, you know, maybe I just don't like stuff, and then made a conscious effort to try and get rid of all my clues.
00:46:20
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:46:21
VA Zach
So...
00:46:22
Conor Fowler
Yeah, so you got rid of the
00:46:24
VA Zach
I got rid of the Balenci's, I had some stuff from All Saints that I got rid of, I had some... ah somehow I found like a Givenchy blazer that I like just got rid of in a huff. um I think I found somehow a copy of Goodbye Things by Fimiya Sasaki and figured, you know, all of this stuff, the me wearing a bunch of bright clothes, the me wearing a bunch of designer things, it's all sort of chasing this sort of idea of contentment. What if instead I just
00:47:01
VA Zach
Oh, and only a few things. And then I'm happy. And then that's life. So slightly whittled down to maybe like 30 items of clothing, period. And no, that was me in like 20, that was me 2023.
00:47:13
Conor Fowler
That's you right now or that's you in the past, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
00:47:18
VA Zach
um So my joy lived like that for a year. So I had a couple of t-shirts, a couple button downs, vintage,
00:47:30
VA Zach
a couple vintage jackets that I just thought were cool. And you know I would be like washing my clothes twice a week. I'd be doing things like excessively counting ah how many wears I could get on a shirt without smelling bad or stuff of that nature.
00:47:47
VA Zach
It was, in hindsight, a very sort of...
00:47:49
Conor Fowler
It's like approximately three. It depends on the day.
00:47:52
VA Zach
It depends on the day, it depends on the person. um this is back when dc was still very warm
00:47:57
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's as true as it is.
00:48:00
VA Zach
so
00:48:01
Conor Fowler
Summertime, DC. It is a fucking lovely, amazing place, truly. ah just in just like And I wonder like if you compare it to like a Vietnamese jungle, what's the huge difference?
00:48:16
Conor Fowler
Is it a huge difference? I don't know. What's the difference between 100 degrees and 120 degrees? I guess we'll find out.
00:48:22
VA Zach
This was back when DC was still very warm, so... Vietnamese jungle. But, you know, I mean, if the Department of Government Efficiency has its way, perhaps I tangibly may not have a job.
00:48:27
Conor Fowler
I think that's unlikely for us in this day.
00:48:38
Matt
but
00:48:45
Matt
Oh my god.
00:48:46
VA Zach
um
00:48:46
Conor Fowler
That's what everybody is saying. How are they just going to fire everyone? They're going to cut everyone's jobs off and say, go fuck yourself.
00:48:50
VA Zach
but so
00:48:55
Conor Fowler
Starve. I mean, i just it doesn't it doesn't like, how is that even possible?
00:49:03
VA Zach
I mean, in life, i've now I've taken the tack of saying, you know, if I have to wonder how are things possible, someone's gonna find a way.
00:49:03
Conor Fowler
I guess it's me.
00:49:13
VA Zach
So, usually I mean that in a positive way, like, oh, what can we do?
00:49:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah, true.
00:49:18
VA Zach
What can we do to resolve this problem? But it also works in the opposite way, like how horrible can human beings get? and
00:49:28
Conor Fowler
Ooh, ha ha ha! Go on, i'm i'm well I welcome
00:49:34
VA Zach
And mind you, ah how horrible can human beings get? I think it's colored a lot of how I view the world. Not necessarily that I'm cynical about human beings, but more so that I, see i for the longest time, assumed either ill intent or I assumed ulterior motives of people. And so I'd usually respond in ways that sort of counter that.
00:50:03
VA Zach
I think that extends to the sensesza how I dress as well. I worked in Whole Foods and Service. I dealt with customer returns. I dealt with customer complaints. I got screamed at, cussed at, all sorts of stuff for eight years.
00:50:17
Conor Fowler
This was in DC.
00:50:17
VA Zach
ah
00:50:19
Conor Fowler
This is in Salisbury.
00:50:20
VA Zach
DC northern and Northern Virginia, yes.
00:50:22
Conor Fowler
Jesus Christ, I'm sure that was horrible.
00:50:22
VA Zach
um DC stores are interesting. I'll say that.
00:50:27
Conor Fowler
Well, this is a bathroom, right? I mean, it's a bathroom.
00:50:30
VA Zach
Yeah.
00:50:31
Conor Fowler
It's a bathroom, so people are in there.
00:50:34
VA Zach
And mind you, the last Whole Feeds I worked at was the one at, um, what used to be Georgetown, what is currently Glover Park, the one that piloted the, um, hands-free payment from Amazon for Whole Feeds.
00:50:49
Conor Fowler
a all That they found out was that they found out was actually people right Spencer this I'm not anyway they really got upon it a ah get crazy That's crazy yes
00:50:51
VA Zach
Yeah, I saw it work there for the...
00:50:57
VA Zach
like Yeah! Um... Yeah! um And well, I technically can't...
00:51:03
Matt
Hands-free payment.
00:51:05
VA Zach
And so, I can't technically get too much into it because we signed and NDAs and I don't know how long that lasts and I have no money for Amazon to sue. What's up?
00:51:16
VA Zach
And, you know, I don't have money for Amazon to take from me more than they already do, but...
00:51:22
Conor Fowler
If they want to sue this program, bring it on. We need the publicity.
00:51:29
VA Zach
I mean, you don't want Amazon publicity, but...
00:51:29
Conor Fowler
But not Matt.
00:51:33
Conor Fowler
yeah they're They're actually taking us on to their podcasting network. No.
00:51:38
VA Zach
I mean, though now on Instagram, I'm seeing Amazon's ads are shifting towards, like, shop the runway, and it's Amazon selling, like, a jacket from capital, or stuff from Bodhi.
00:51:50
Matt
Sick. Fucking sick.
00:51:52
Conor Fowler
you know
00:51:53
VA Zach
Like, stuff that I wouldn't buy, but it's like, oh, I can go and buy these designer goods for from Amazon rather than the manufacturer who is in many cases almost as bad but still better than Amazon. Okay, cool, great, thanks.
00:52:12
Conor Fowler
It's like, what what what country do you want the child to be sitting in when they're sewing the buttons onto the du dress?
00:52:21
VA Zach
But I think having to deal with all of that, I think I learned to present myself in a way that maybe disarmed people a little bit.
00:52:32
VA Zach
um You know, I'm obviously a black person, I'm obviously a black man, and I'm in an environment that is largely populated by white women or women of color.
00:52:44
VA Zach
So the instinct people have whenever they would encounter me at Whole Foods or in other places where it worked, it's of suspicion um or of
00:52:55
Conor Fowler
People, yeah, Jesus.
00:52:57
VA Zach
fear that I might be just some angry assertive but or anger aggressive black man who's trying to put whatever on them and who might rape them or something.
00:53:05
Conor Fowler
Wearing all foods, yeahs yeah, amazing.
00:53:07
VA Zach
And then it would immediately sort of shift the opposite way. It'd be different. It'd be polite. It'd be genial. I would make jokes. um I would empathize with their situation as best I could.
00:53:21
VA Zach
Sometimes it actually was a situation that sucked. And sometimes people are being unreasonable.
00:53:28
Conor Fowler
Haha.
00:53:28
VA Zach
But that sort of carried over to how he dressed. you know I would wear button downs. I would wear chinos. I'd wear ah you know flat shoes. Because at the time we weren't wearing loafers.
00:53:39
VA Zach
um needed something s slipp We needed something that was slip resistant for fear of cracking our heads open and suing Amazon. ah i I think that sort of mentality, it sort of stuck with me. So when I started up my new job, where I currently work as a contractor for the EIA, which is a subgrouping of the Department of Energy,
00:54:10
VA Zach
ah and And it's funny it's funny because I mentioned I worked for Whole Foods, I worked technically for Amazon.
Role at Department of Energy
00:54:19
VA Zach
um My big break because I stopped working at a soulless corporation that was owned by Amazon was to work for the government in service of Big Oil.
00:54:34
VA Zach
ah
00:54:34
Matt
yeah it right yeah
00:54:36
VA Zach
um but But all of. I enjoy what I do. um What I do makes a difference. i truck I help track survey data of petroleum imports, and that does have an impact on the markets, both of as a commodity and as of people who just want to import crude oil or other stuff for whatever purpose.
00:54:36
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:54:59
VA Zach
um
00:54:59
Matt
Right, right, yeah
00:55:01
VA Zach
It's a nice job. It's not necessarily my forever job. But the benefit of it is it gave me a lot of freedom to do other stuff like think about clues.
00:55:12
VA Zach
Or...
00:55:12
Matt
Hell yeah.
00:55:12
Conor Fowler
no but
00:55:13
Matt
Yeah. As any corporate job should.
00:55:14
VA Zach
god ah It's...
00:55:17
Conor Fowler
Dude, it's so fucking annoying. It's good. It's lucky. That's like a good job.
00:55:24
VA Zach
It's good. You know, if they want to paint me twice as much, it'd be better. But I...
00:55:30
Conor Fowler
But like, what are the odds of a child sneezing in your face? For example, I'm just saying you're slightly protected.
00:55:36
VA Zach
Oh. I mean, the odds are zero since we're fully remote, but...
00:55:39
Conor Fowler
You're insulated. Yeah, right, and you're remote. So yeah, you never get, yeah that that's great.
00:55:44
VA Zach
Great!
00:55:45
Conor Fowler
That's a great job. It's a remote job. It's a job that they are not fucking with you that much. Great.
00:55:51
VA Zach
it
00:55:51
Conor Fowler
Congratulations. You should be proud of that. That's like something to be proud of.
00:55:55
VA Zach
it's It's... Wonderful. I appreciate the freedom that it gives, um especially since my wonderful partner, my wonderful husband, ah he had a share of health issues and it was very easy for me to be portable and say, oh, hey, I got to do a thing.
00:56:13
VA Zach
um I'll be working from the hospital today while we wait for him to have out pieces surgery on his broken leg.
00:56:21
Matt
Right.
00:56:22
VA Zach
And my boss is like, oh, okay, great, cool.
00:56:22
Matt
but
00:56:26
VA Zach
Keep me posted. Hopefully it gets better.
00:56:29
Matt
Nice.
00:56:29
VA Zach
But it's a dream.
00:56:30
Matt
Nice. That's the tree.
00:56:34
VA Zach
um But one interesting aspect of it is the work is nice. The job environment, my apartment, nice. But it's very it's it's very routine work.
00:56:43
Conor Fowler
but but Wow.
00:56:48
VA Zach
And after a few weeks, I sort of started losing my marbles a little bit just because of how monotonous or routine it got. And that led to me thinking about, oh, how can I make my day more interesting?
00:57:03
VA Zach
I could dress up. I could actually not.
00:57:05
Conor Fowler
but
00:57:06
VA Zach
I could wear things other than a t-shirt and baggy shorts. And I think that's what led to the impetus of me actually putting forth some effort into leveling up my style.
Fashion Expression Through Experimentation
00:57:20
VA Zach
um At first, go ahead.
00:57:20
Matt
yeah, hell yeah
00:57:21
Conor Fowler
I said zero to hero, zero to hero. Right?
00:57:26
VA Zach
so i mean i could send them to you but yeah it's so it's funny i took some time over the summer and then a few weeks ago to look back at
00:57:26
Conor Fowler
Like, yeah, because where are the old fits? That's what we want. We want the old fits with the gray shoes.
00:57:34
Conor Fowler
Not right now. Not right now. I'm saying, you know, into the into the duds vault.
00:57:47
VA Zach
the sort of old fits I could find you know on Instagram, on Facebook. um There was something there. like Even if it was, like oh i oh, I'd wear all gray or all black or intentionally oversized stuff.
00:58:04
VA Zach
ah There is the gem of something resembling coherent thought about clues.
00:58:10
Matt
Totally.
00:58:12
VA Zach
It was always hamstrung by a lack of vision and a lack of budget. um
00:58:17
Conor Fowler
yeah
00:58:18
VA Zach
Then I came to find out the budget thing was a non-issue. I just needed to suck it up and go on eBay more or go out to Goodwill more often. And the detailing was just a matter of trial and error, just thinking like, okay, I could wear a tie.
00:58:28
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:58:33
VA Zach
Let's see what that does. I could wear a baseball cap. Let's see what that does.
00:58:41
VA Zach
the And I think
00:58:41
Conor Fowler
Yeah, dude, you're figuring it out.
00:58:45
Conor Fowler
What do you think about the baseball cap?
00:58:48
VA Zach
ah team baseball.
00:58:48
Conor Fowler
Because you're shaved headed now, right?
00:58:49
VA Zach
What's up?
00:58:51
Conor Fowler
You're shaved headed now?
00:58:53
VA Zach
Okay, so gri ah I was growing my hair out basically from 2023 to late September.
00:58:57
Conor Fowler
Oh.
00:59:03
VA Zach
ah Partly because of cause, partly because he just wanted to see how big it could grow before he got tired of cutting it. And got to maybe a couple inches worth of actual growth. ah At that point, I was wearing preschool hats pretty regularly so you couldn't tell how wet my hair was.
00:59:20
VA Zach
But I would, you know, trim it for maintenance sake. And then one day, I'm pretty sure it was the day of the debate, maybe the VP debate.
00:59:32
VA Zach
And after the VP debate, I really wasn't feeling it.
00:59:34
Conor Fowler
That fateful day.
00:59:36
VA Zach
I was stressing out. I don't want to say Tim Wall's caused me to shave my head in a panic.
00:59:43
VA Zach
um But I tried to trim my hair. The guard on the razor accidentally slipped off, took out a chunk of my hair, and I was like, well, fuck.
00:59:55
Conor Fowler
Damn.
00:59:57
VA Zach
I've got a finished job, I guess.
00:59:57
Conor Fowler
And then the universe told you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:59:59
VA Zach
ah Went fully buzzed. And so now I just have a short haircut and just been sort of living that life. ah
01:00:07
Conor Fowler
Looks good. I thought you had it. Uh, what do they say?
01:00:12
VA Zach
it was ah It was basically next to skin on top for a while.
01:00:13
Conor Fowler
Polish on top.
01:00:19
Conor Fowler
Yeah, and that this, I think, rocks. I think this is good.
01:00:22
VA Zach
Thank you.
01:00:23
Conor Fowler
This is like a fitting, a fitting look for you. So e you know, I live to fucking validate if if nothing else, that's what the show is about.
01:00:28
VA Zach
I appreciate the validation. um I've only gone ah get it because at the end of the world, what you need is validation.
01:00:30
Matt
Yeah.
01:00:35
Conor Fowler
Validation.
01:00:41
Conor Fowler
That's fucking right.
01:00:41
VA Zach
ah But I think it was but it was very it's weird to say that there is a significant change of cutting off an inch or two of hair, but it was.
01:00:53
VA Zach
And it's not something that you really are conditioned to talk about as a man, or as a black man, because haircutting is just a normal thing.
01:00:54
Conor Fowler
In terms of the way that people. Yeah.
01:01:04
VA Zach
But I cut my hair, took a few days to sort of figure out how to wear clothes and realize that the world's not ending. just because they have no hair. ah But I made do.
01:01:16
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:01:18
VA Zach
I went through and I kept it moving.
01:01:22
VA Zach
I think the last year or so, people have said called it a logarithmic growth and I'm inclined to agree.
01:01:29
Conor Fowler
Can you explain that?
01:01:30
VA Zach
um
01:01:31
Conor Fowler
Can you explain that for us and non eggheads?
01:01:34
VA Zach
Well, I mean, the benefit of having a math degree is being able to say logarithmic groups unironically. it's um
01:01:43
Conor Fowler
Hmm.
01:01:45
VA Zach
So I generally say I took fashion seriously in January 2024, so only 10 months ago. ah I could find that it like the 26th I think was when I joined the discord for
01:01:55
Conor Fowler
You have a day?
01:02:01
Conor Fowler
OK. I'm putting that in my calendar.
01:02:05
VA Zach
ah For male fad, the Discord formerly known as male fashion advice currently mfad at one point affiliated with our male fashion advice on Reddit. I joined at like the end of January, posted a fit. it In hindsight, it was not a great fit, but it was very, very good. A, for its time, and B, because I had so i was someone who just sort of dropped in from outer space.
01:02:36
VA Zach
ah but but made you and my dear It was to set the table, I think it does encapsulate a lot of the things that I typically would wear.
01:02:38
Conor Fowler
yeah yeah got dude and that's true
01:02:46
VA Zach
It was a brown oversized Pendleton wool shirt. a pair of ah I found a pair of Laura Piano chinos, but the inseam was too short.
01:03:00
VA Zach
It was a I have a 32 in team. They're 3028s.
01:03:05
Conor Fowler
okay that's like yeah that's like my size come on and that's the way the pants ought to be you know matt and i are in agreement about this you're a complete couple because why do you get boots if you don't want to show the whole boot off
01:03:07
VA Zach
They're like high waters. um
01:03:15
Matt
Yes, 100%.
01:03:16
VA Zach
you know i
01:03:19
VA Zach
oh My relationship
01:03:20
Matt
If my pants touch my shoes,
01:03:31
VA Zach
I mean, I've had instances where I do own, I was boot averse until over the summer.
01:03:39
Conor Fowler
What does that even mean?
01:03:40
VA Zach
Boot averse meaning, boot averse meaning I didn't like wearing boots.
01:03:40
Conor Fowler
How can you be Buddhaverse?
01:03:45
VA Zach
ah
01:03:46
Conor Fowler
But they're good, they're all, I mean, they're like almost inarguable.
01:03:51
VA Zach
Almost inarguable. And congratulations, I'm the person that likes to argue.
01:03:57
Conor Fowler
That's why we get along so well.
01:04:00
VA Zach
But as fate would have it, this mind you, the boot thing, this is after MFED, this is after fit battle, this is after like some of the more formative fits, I would say. um But I was walking towards a flea market in DC. I found a pair of derby shoes, of old GH Bash shoes from Goodwill. I took it upon myself to dye them.
01:04:30
VA Zach
So they were black and I dyed them a cordovan sort of reddish purple. um That was a fun process.
01:04:37
Conor Fowler
I did the same shit.
01:04:38
VA Zach
um
01:04:39
Conor Fowler
Not the same shit, but it's I think it's great. Yeah, I think. Because we talked about Derby Saddles on this show, whatever. um Of course, I support them. They're clown.
01:04:50
Conor Fowler
They're close to clown shoes. And I like that. Honk Honk.
01:04:54
VA Zach
Oh, God.
01:04:56
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, right. um
01:05:01
VA Zach
But Team Derby...
01:05:01
Conor Fowler
I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Carry on. but Blue dying.
01:05:04
VA Zach
Anyways, I'd be honest with you, Derby's two were a shoe that took me as...
01:05:06
Conor Fowler
Derby dying.
01:05:09
VA Zach
Derby's I was comfortable with because I wore Doc Martens for the longest time. And I wore Doc Martens initially on MFA, basically every fit. It's, oh, I'm this cast Doc Martens.
01:05:21
VA Zach
Oh, I'm trying to be like punk Doc Martens. Oh, I'm trying to be doing my best to be Doc Martens.
01:05:25
Conor Fowler
Well, let's do that. It's appropriate.
01:05:27
VA Zach
What's up?
01:05:29
Conor Fowler
and so Well, that's appropriate. there That's a punk rock shoe.
01:05:30
VA Zach
Um, when I say punk, it was sort of a half-assed punk, where it was like, I wore a t-shirt and some 501s, and then Doc Martens.
01:05:33
Conor Fowler
A boot.
01:05:41
VA Zach
And I was like, I'm being punk!
01:05:42
Conor Fowler
Well, that's it. Focus a wide net. A large net. ah Something.
01:05:52
VA Zach
It's so...
01:05:52
Conor Fowler
A big tent, as they say in the Democratic Party.
01:05:54
VA Zach
punk? Oh, lord. So...
01:05:57
Conor Fowler
ah
01:05:58
VA Zach
Punk is a big tent community. I want to be careful because Adidas identifies Punk.
01:06:08
Conor Fowler
Well, this is a safe space to say that. Matt, don't you say anything, okay?
01:06:12
Matt
i what
01:06:14
VA Zach
Thank you so much.
01:06:14
Conor Fowler
Right, Matt. Matt, a famous gatekeeper of the punk community.
01:06:17
Matt
not Not even close, not
01:06:19
Conor Fowler
No, not at all, actually. Like, very much the opposite, so...
01:06:24
VA Zach
ah Well, I think there's a certain image that punk conveys, even though it's big tent, I think people's minds go to the lowest hanging fruit with punk, you know, flannels, torn jeans, errata.
01:06:38
Conor Fowler
pistols.
01:06:40
VA Zach
And I first off had a tendency to want to half-ass these sorts of things, so it I would wear Doc Martens and jeans and t-shirt and say, oh, I'm being punk, sort of, um at first.
01:06:56
VA Zach
But That was when I had only two pairs of shoes. I learned that it would be useful to buy more shoes. So that's when I bought a bunch of loafers, when I bought a bunch of olives.
01:07:07
VA Zach
It's when I bought the derbies that I owned and died because I got bored and figured it would be cool to dye these black shoes purple and see what happens. The dyeing process worked.
01:07:18
Conor Fowler
But that's the punk rock part, dude, dyeing the fucking shoes.
DIY Approach to Fashion
01:07:24
VA Zach
And they worked. And honestly, I didn't
01:07:26
Conor Fowler
And that's. That's what I'm saying. ah yeah
01:07:29
VA Zach
They work. I still wear them. They're in questionable shape because in order to actually dye them, I had to strip a lot of the protective skin off of the leather.
01:07:37
Conor Fowler
And that's even better.
01:07:42
VA Zach
And that does a number to the integrity of the shoe. And these were old shoes. These were glued shoes rather than, you know, you know, so good or well or anything like that.
01:07:51
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:07:55
Conor Fowler
Nice, yeah.
01:07:56
VA Zach
And if they were like entry level Alan Edmonds. So we're not talking like me dying a pair of red wings, which would be truly punk or something like that. um
01:08:07
Conor Fowler
ah um it's It's the spirit.
01:08:11
VA Zach
It is a spirit, but life was good with those shoes. And then one day I'm walking in Georgetown and the soul separates from one of them.
01:08:22
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:08:22
VA Zach
So I do step, step, and then I just feel bare feet against Cobblestone like, oh, That's my foot, that's the sole two steps back. At that point, I see there's a CVS a couple blocks away where I could buy superglue, fix the shoe and go about my merry life, or there's a flea market and I could roll the dice and see if there's maybe a pair of shoes that could fit me that I would just buy and then work it out.
01:08:33
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:08:56
VA Zach
ah Go to the flea market and with a friend Immediately we go in and one of the organizers at said flea market is saying Oh, hey, we love your fits.
01:09:08
VA Zach
Is it possible for us to like fill the guys for Instagram story? I'm holding the soul of the shoe in my hand as they are saying this It's It's punk
01:09:17
Conor Fowler
That's, I'm sorry, you know what I'm gonna say. Yeah.
01:09:23
Matt
It is fun.
01:09:23
VA Zach
And I'm like, you know, oh sure, I just need to set down this. I'm holding the shoe sole with my hand so that they can all see there. Just set it down. They fill me. I'm trying to stand with similar gait, despite the fact that my shoes, my feet are now on two different levels.
01:09:40
VA Zach
um But it gets filmed. It's a good fit. I walk around. Somehow, some way, like Cinderella, I find a pair of harness boots that fit. They're vintage Levi's caramel brown harness boots. They fit me. They gave me a break in pricing. I walked out. it And the fate is the best part is, the clothes that I was wearing at the time,
01:10:12
VA Zach
um It was just a t-shirt, a pair of giant chinos that I got from John Wijons.
01:10:20
VA Zach
You may know him as. um And then a bunch of like gold jewelry.
01:10:20
Conor Fowler
Yeah, sure.
01:10:22
Conor Fowler
Sure.
01:10:25
VA Zach
So I switched the shoes and it was still a serviceable fit.
01:10:26
Matt
Nice.
01:10:28
VA Zach
So I'm like, ew, this is what I wore today. Hey.
01:10:31
Matt
That sounds like a great fit. And as someone that sells vintage and nothing is more fun than watching someone walk out with the thing they buy like on their body.
01:10:44
Conor Fowler
The slipper, right? The glass slipper, like that's the.
01:10:46
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, it's great. It's great.
01:10:49
Conor Fowler
aa
01:10:50
Matt
It's it's always a really fun, high experience.
01:10:55
VA Zach
The funny part was I went home and I was like spiraling just because I still had a broken shoe to contend with and also these random boots that were not in my wardrobe plan.
01:11:07
VA Zach
um I had an idea of what I wanted my wardrobe to look like, boots were not on it, but I figured
01:11:13
Matt
But now you're seeing poop.
01:11:15
Conor Fowler
Now, exactly.
01:11:16
VA Zach
Now I'm team boot.
01:11:16
Conor Fowler
ProBoot. the food yeah oh yeah you use using like rit are you using like feeblings fiblings or using okay
01:11:20
VA Zach
And I was going to them, in fact. I was going to try and dye them black. just ah
01:11:32
VA Zach
Well, I would have used shoe polish.
01:11:35
Matt
yeah yeah
01:11:35
VA Zach
You use enough shoe polish and it just looks black and then you put a sealant on top of it and it holds the color for a little bit until you apply more. Black dye, and then that's how you maintain the black color.
01:11:46
VA Zach
ah It's a dirty, it's, as you would say, punk.
01:11:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah, interesting, yeah.
01:11:53
VA Zach
ah
01:11:54
Conor Fowler
you get You can get like leather dye, I mean.
01:11:59
VA Zach
Yeah, ah leather dye is how I dyed the derby shoes to cordovan red slash purple. So leather dye works, it's just people are cheap.
01:12:07
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:12:12
VA Zach
And like a more efficient solution and the efficient solution is just slathering on layers and layers of shoe polish and then just saying, what about it?
01:12:12
Conor Fowler
Minor little swatchy, yeah.
01:12:19
Matt
Yeah.
01:12:22
Conor Fowler
and then yeah well it's like then can you like not touch your pants with your shoes at all like you can't cross your you can't cross your legs at all because you're like smearing shoe polish all over your pants I don't know
01:12:31
VA Zach
ah Well, that can't cross.
01:12:39
VA Zach
So that's the worry. And there was a little bit of that with the one pair of shoes that I dyed. So sometimes I looked at my jeans like, oh, why is there like a purple streak on the L more than what the pair of shoes.
01:12:51
Conor Fowler
You see my suede boots, right? the I dyed these like bone suede boots purple.
01:12:54
VA Zach
What's up?
01:12:59
VA Zach
what Why? Why?
01:13:00
Conor Fowler
And they had, because they were filthy, they look like shit. ah I dyed them purple and then I guess I saw these yellow like rock gut laces and I was like, I have to do that.
01:13:12
Conor Fowler
So I'm going to wear them probably tomorrow for the fifth game for LDP.
01:13:16
VA Zach
Yes!
01:13:21
VA Zach
When you say the yellow laser, are you talking like, Danner style?
01:13:25
Conor Fowler
No, they're like, they're leather, they're leather.
01:13:26
VA Zach
Doc style? Oh wow.
01:13:29
Conor Fowler
They're yellow leather, they're rock, I believe. Yeah, they're tight.
01:13:34
VA Zach
That is insane and I fully support you.
01:13:35
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah. And I haven't seen, it people in the people in the new scene haven't seen them. People who are actually looking at my clothing have not seen them because I haven't wore them in a while.
01:13:46
Conor Fowler
So it's gonna be, it's gonna be amazing. I don't know what I'm gonna wear.
01:13:50
VA Zach
I always like i like that element of surprise when it comes to clothing. um I think part of the sort of crazy trajectory of growth was being able to not only surprise other people, it surprised myself in what I was able to wear.
01:14:08
VA Zach
um Part of it comes from just doing dumb stuff.
01:14:10
Conor Fowler
Sure. Nailedation.
01:14:12
VA Zach
like I had a pair of striped pants and I figured, well, What if I just wore it as a scarf or something and I put it on and it turned out to be just this funny fit? um Or, you know, what if I wore shorts with a suit and it turned out to be a crazy good fit or baggies with a placer?
01:14:34
VA Zach
um
01:14:35
Conor Fowler
it's It's real, though. I mean, all of that shit is real. And it's amazing because Darren finds pictures of people doing it like in the 60s. And it's like, yeah, time is a flat circle.
01:14:46
Conor Fowler
Whatever. However you want to say it.
01:14:47
VA Zach
so It's the funniest thing. um A lot of the things that people consider to be sort of edgy or on the margins or unexpected, it's stuff that has been done, but it's stuff that, ah for whatever reason, ah people just sort of don't feel like doing.
01:15:07
VA Zach
And I think it's largely because whatever expectations people have of clothes, of themselves, of society,
01:15:07
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah.
01:15:16
VA Zach
it sort of limits what they're able what they're willing to put on. um I know there's a reckoning about wide-fit pants still that i I, for one, don't understand.
01:15:29
VA Zach
um I lived through the 2010s.
01:15:31
Conor Fowler
What?
01:15:31
VA Zach
I lived through ah the joy of slimfit. I lived through trying to fit in the Levi's 510s and 511s.
01:15:39
Matt
oh The worst.
01:15:41
VA Zach
The worst!
01:15:42
Matt
The worst.
01:15:42
Conor Fowler
I just it i was always too fat for that. Like it was not in the, yeah, it was not in the thing and like the girl jeans thing, I could never do this.
01:15:45
VA Zach
I was also too fat, same.
01:15:49
Matt
i mean
01:15:52
Conor Fowler
I just don't get it. And now I'm too fat for all my clothes anyway. So it's C again, circular. It is what it is.
01:15:59
VA Zach
Well, the gene the gene thing was weird because during the mid-2010s, the golden age of MFA, if you will, I was significantly overweight.
01:16:09
Conor Fowler
ah
01:16:10
VA Zach
I was maybe 250. So things like skinny jeans were really not within my wheelhouse. And things like slim-fitter tapered chinos or such, they kind of look ridiculous if you are significantly overweight like that.
01:16:28
VA Zach
um Fast forward to now, significantly smaller, I could fit in that stuff, but then it's like, well, you know, it sucked to wear that.
01:16:39
VA Zach
It sucked, my calves sucked, my nuts were bunching.
01:16:39
Matt
Yeah.
01:16:43
VA Zach
um There's a whole host of like anatomical reasons why this is actually not great. And to boot, it doesn't really look that cool either, so why would I subject myself to that still?
01:16:57
Matt
Yeah, the mainstream is keeping this is keeping the skinny shit on deck.
01:16:59
Conor Fowler
Roger that.
01:17:04
Matt
That's the Macy's and like normal look now.
01:17:08
Conor Fowler
What I think it's funny.
01:17:08
Matt
And it didn't really look good in the first place.
01:17:09
Conor Fowler
vi Well, it's a shorthand way for people to distinguish like generations.
01:17:18
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:17:18
Conor Fowler
Right. Like, I don't know.
01:17:20
Matt
I mean, I mean, well, like, you know, the people like Derek Guy, like, this is the reason why he came to Providence on Twitter is like, you know,
01:17:20
Conor Fowler
I just it's an interesting signifier. Like, I had never worn skinny jeans. I don't want to wear them. I don't wanna wear new jeans though, cause I'm short.
01:17:37
Matt
like throwing shit at people like Matt Gaetz that wear the skinniest of pants.
01:17:39
VA Zach
Thank you.
01:17:42
Matt
And it's like, it's so mainstream at this point.
01:17:43
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:17:46
VA Zach
And I think it's interesting because...
01:17:46
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Doing like cowboy, fake cowboy shit with with skinny jeans on.
01:17:51
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:17:51
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:17:53
VA Zach
And it's interesting because I always wondered, well, what's the look of the... there is a distinct There's a distinct look of the decade for the 70s. There's a distinct look of the decade for the 80s, for the 90s, for the 2000s even, for the 2010s.
01:18:10
VA Zach
it's a little more nebulous because some people wore skinny jeans and some people wore a shitload of Supreme.
01:18:17
Matt
Yeah, right.
01:18:17
VA Zach
ah
01:18:20
VA Zach
And then you fast forward to now there not there really isn't a distinguishing look. And I think that affects men's wear discourse, speak that affects discourse because no one really has an idea of how to dress. There's this sort of weird old money situation going on lately, though I think it's on its last legs, thankfully.
01:18:45
VA Zach
um It's a silly trend.
01:18:47
Conor Fowler
so Yeah, like the succession thing.
01:18:49
VA Zach
It's problematic.
01:18:50
Conor Fowler
Yeah, fucking stupid.
01:18:53
VA Zach
but its Ultimately, it's inauthentic. um Not to dunk on Reddit or and MFA or or other discords that I frequent, ah but the topic of How do I dress like the old money style or how can i or what brands do I wear
Old Money Style Trend: Appeal and Limitations
01:19:10
VA Zach
to fit in old money?
01:19:11
Conor Fowler
Yeah, if you have to ask, then you are not. Yeah, get out of here.
01:19:17
VA Zach
it's yeah it's What about the lifestyle is appealing?
01:19:22
Matt
but Right.
01:19:22
VA Zach
because if you're
01:19:23
Conor Fowler
I wanna wear a $5,000 baseball hat, but a fake version of that so that I, my mom, right. It's like, what is even the point of any of it?
01:19:34
VA Zach
and i And I get it. I think in a lot of ways, the aesthetic is really a shorthand for um I want to look as if I'm in some sort of position of power or some sort of position of privilege.
01:19:46
Matt
Right.
01:19:49
VA Zach
But I can't do that through the way that I currently dress. So maybe if I dress this other way, that i then I could maybe get that. And you know like to an extent, it's not wrong.
01:20:03
VA Zach
but But it's limiting because it's really dressing for others and it's dressing for others based on false pretense.
01:20:03
Conor Fowler
It works.
01:20:07
Conor Fowler
Truly.
01:20:12
VA Zach
Once people sort of befriend you or acknowledge your existence, you're sort of stuck in a corner where you kind of have to keep dressing like this. And if it's a style that you don't actually like or that doesn't suit you, then you're going to be miserable dressing like this all the time.
01:20:30
VA Zach
and probably spend a bunch of money in the process.
01:20:35
Matt
hundred 100%. 100%. Well, dude, Zach, it's been a ah pleasure to have you on and to chat with you. And yeah, I feel like all of our episodes recently, like there's so much more to cover with our guests.
01:20:44
Conor Fowler
for sure.
01:20:50
Matt
So we'll have you back on at some point.
01:20:53
VA Zach
Of course, I think...
01:20:54
Matt
Yeah, it's been hella fun.
01:20:56
VA Zach
You know, I... didn't really expect a lot. Again, I've listened to the podcast. and I mean, I'm a fan.
01:21:05
Matt
but We're big fans of not expecting a lot.
01:21:06
VA Zach
But this is great.
01:21:09
Matt
Yeah, man. like yeah But you know it is fun to just like get a few people together that are into the same or similar stuff and just chat.
01:21:09
Conor Fowler
Yeah, low expectations are the way of the world.
01:21:23
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:21:23
Matt
That's what we're all about.
01:21:26
VA Zach
and Sometimes you just need that sort of affirmation that maybe you're not completely off base with your thinking.
Validation in Fashion and Identity Discussions
01:21:34
Matt
100%.
01:21:34
VA Zach
um And I think especially very recently, given certain recent real life events, um that's sort of true in a lot of sentences where you just sort of need a validation that you're not alone, that your thoughts are valid, and that someone somewhere appreciates them.
01:21:56
VA Zach
So I appreciate it.
01:21:57
Matt
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
01:21:58
Conor Fowler
Wow, Zach, did you write that down?
01:22:00
Matt
Yeah, that's that's a good ah good little nugget from this ah this episode.
01:22:06
VA Zach
Clip that and nothing else.
01:22:06
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Exactly.
Unintentional Timing and Substack Restart
01:22:09
Conor Fowler
That's what we're using. We're going to have a successful reel. I can feel it. And Zach, you neglected to mention something of import, I think. I'm not asking you to say what anything, but obviously I'm asking you to talk about your other thing.
01:22:24
Conor Fowler
to
01:22:26
VA Zach
ah um So the thing that happened five months ago or the thing that happened five hours ago? right
01:22:33
Conor Fowler
I guess it happened five hours ago.
01:22:35
VA Zach
Oh!
01:22:35
Conor Fowler
I'm not keeping track.
01:22:35
VA Zach
So, i I swear, hand to God, I did not time this with this ah recording in mind.
01:22:45
Conor Fowler
You did.
01:22:45
VA Zach
I just...
01:22:46
Conor Fowler
I know you did.
01:22:47
VA Zach
No! No, I do not have... I do not have Illintet, I do not have a press manager.
01:22:52
Conor Fowler
What did I say at the beginning? What did I say at the beginning? ah Does Gen Z report? I can't believe it.
01:22:57
VA Zach
The Gen Z Report.
01:22:58
Conor Fowler
You could call it the Gen Z report.
01:23:01
VA Zach
But I do...
Writing on DIY, Thrifting, and Vintage Finds
01:23:02
VA Zach
I have a sub-stack that I recently restarted. So the very first thing that I put on it was several months ago, I wrote a long form article or long form series of essays about participating in the MFA Discord fit battle over the spring.
01:23:02
Conor Fowler
so
01:23:23
VA Zach
um Nerds spoilers for how I did, but it's a pretty long series if that if it means anything to you.
01:23:25
Conor Fowler
Which is amazing, by the way, is so good. Yeah.
01:23:32
Conor Fowler
It's a fucking gargantuan amount of work, like love-based work. So like, check it out. Great writer. Questionable person.
01:23:42
Conor Fowler
Good. ah Right?
01:23:44
VA Zach
You know, I'll take it!
01:23:45
Conor Fowler
We don't know. We don't know.
01:23:46
VA Zach
right
01:23:46
Conor Fowler
We don't know. We don't know. You seem to be very close with Mr. Bezos.
01:23:51
VA Zach
You know, I would like to be close to Mr.
01:23:53
Conor Fowler
Haha.
01:23:55
VA Zach
Bezos' car when I get hit by it, and so I can see his millions.
01:23:57
Conor Fowler
Yeah, dude. You can't tell, you can't tell them about the plan, you can't tell them about the plan because then they don't know about it.
01:24:07
VA Zach
I mean, is it pre-meditated if I get hit by a car?
01:24:07
Conor Fowler
but that it
01:24:13
Matt
Right.
01:24:13
Conor Fowler
I think it's premeditated if you mention it in a video recording of you saying it.
01:24:19
Matt
Or audio, as the case may be.
01:24:20
VA Zach
i i i' not I would like to go on record as saying I'm not chasing Jeff Bezos or anyone associated with him or any vehicles associated with him in any way, shape, or form.
01:24:20
Conor Fowler
Or audio, right.
01:24:30
Matt
There we go. That's their out right there.
01:24:32
VA Zach
um
01:24:34
Conor Fowler
And we don't acknowledge the Bezos guy either.
01:24:39
Matt
Anyway.
01:24:39
Conor Fowler
Good night.
01:24:39
VA Zach
i i But do write about sort of some of the things that I get into on Instagram and on Discord that are maybe better suited for a longer form format.
01:24:40
Matt
ah
01:24:52
VA Zach
um A lot of my efforts in DIY, some of my finds and observations when thrifting things or research on vintage pieces that I find and own, um and some commentary on just the state of clothing in general.
01:25:09
VA Zach
um I think for now, it's going to be a lot of me backfilling old content that I wrote elsewhere. ah But with time, I'll just sort of have a fairly regular, hopefully a regular stream of nice long form content to just sit and read.
01:25:26
Matt
Let's...
01:25:26
VA Zach
ah You know, if you're between sets at the gym or if you're between Pomodoro,
01:25:30
Conor Fowler
Or if you're a whiner like me who wishes people would fucking write and really the person who should be writing is me!
01:25:38
VA Zach
Will you have a wonderful platform as it is, a wonderful podcast, a wonderful Instagram feed?
01:25:38
Conor Fowler
Right?
01:25:40
Conor Fowler
yeah
01:25:45
Conor Fowler
Oh, thank you so much!
01:25:45
VA Zach
I think you're quite welcome.
01:25:47
Conor Fowler
Thank you so much!
01:25:49
VA Zach
I think with content creation, first off, I think on a philosophical sense, ah man generally sort of wants to create, I think is the common saying, and whether that's
01:26:02
Conor Fowler
nice Nice. That's a nice innuendo.
01:26:06
VA Zach
Hey.
01:26:07
Conor Fowler
so
01:26:08
VA Zach
um We live in the country where that might be more of an and more of an an edict, but we'll see.
01:26:14
Conor Fowler
Wait, wait, wait! We don't talk about dick on this program. Not like that anyway.
01:26:19
VA Zach
An e-vagina.
01:26:20
Conor Fowler
You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? That's a good one.
01:26:24
VA Zach
An e-Richard. Yes.
01:26:27
Conor Fowler
You're right. right
01:26:28
VA Zach
um
01:26:29
Conor Fowler
ah
01:26:31
VA Zach
But creation, I think creation is important, and the most important the best creative vessel that someone can create is something that's meaningful to them.
01:26:36
Conor Fowler
and Oops!
01:26:41
VA Zach
And this podcast is clearly meaningful to you.
Creating Meaningful Content: Picasso vs. Kanye
01:26:44
VA Zach
It's something that you're clearly good at. If you choose to write, I think you would be great at it.
01:26:46
Conor Fowler
My vessel!
01:26:50
VA Zach
um you know I don't want you to like pull up Picasso, do too many things, and then lose your mind.
01:26:57
Conor Fowler
oh
01:26:58
VA Zach
Or Kanye West. and
01:26:59
Conor Fowler
oh
01:27:01
VA Zach
or Kanye West and do too many things and you know um lose your marvels that way.
01:27:07
Conor Fowler
Start it's right start prophesizing about whatever he talks about all the time.
01:27:13
VA Zach
Exactly.
01:27:15
Conor Fowler
I Think ah Yeah, all right That would be that would be very funny I think yeah, dude you're coming back
01:27:17
VA Zach
That man.
01:27:21
Matt
they We have another entire episode about Kanye.
01:27:21
VA Zach
That man. I think there's a whole separate conversation about Kanye West.
Future Talk on Kanye West
01:27:32
Conor Fowler
and
01:27:33
Matt
we We'll come back and have an all Kanye part two. ah We can.
01:27:37
Conor Fowler
And then we get to the roast of Kanye.
01:27:41
VA Zach
The verse of Kanye, oh my god.
01:27:43
Conor Fowler
Right.
01:27:44
Matt
All right, Zach.
01:27:45
Conor Fowler
All right. Good night, everyone.
01:27:47
Matt
Nope.
01:27:48
Conor Fowler
Oh, sorry. Sorry.
01:27:49
Matt
but
01:27:49
Conor Fowler
No, it's your show. It's your part of the show. Yeah. Yeah.
Social Media Handle 'Ziometer' Explained
01:27:51
Matt
Before we go, please shout out ah both your substack and your Instagram we account, just so people can follow you, because I think they're going to love this.
01:27:51
Conor Fowler
Sorry.
01:28:00
VA Zach
Well, thank you. i and I forgot about the possibility of self-permission. So, my Instagram and my substack handle is ziometer, that's Z for zebra, E for eagle, O for owl, and then meter, like the unit of measure.
01:28:25
VA Zach
um That's on Instagram, that's on substack, that's on Discord.
01:28:26
Matt
The,
01:28:32
VA Zach
Any social media It's going to be that. If you cannot find me on that name there, then I do not exist, or I do not want you to find me there.
01:28:35
Matt
nice.
01:28:42
Matt
they
01:28:42
Conor Fowler
I've been saying, Zeometer.
01:28:45
VA Zach
ah It's very interesting because I never really figured out.
01:28:49
Conor Fowler
Is this a Zeometer an instrument?
01:28:52
VA Zach
So, geometer is based on the learning software geometer sketchpad. ah
01:28:59
Conor Fowler
Oh god, right.
01:29:00
VA Zach
you affili No affiliation to McGraw-Hill, but it's a math learning tool that I used throughout school.
01:29:00
Conor Fowler
mentioneds
01:29:03
Conor Fowler
a
01:29:06
VA Zach
It kind of imprinted on me. And when I was figuring out, oh, what kind of cool handle could I use that wasn't already taken by 8 million other people, that was the first one that came up and I just sort of stuck with it.
01:29:18
Matt
Solid.
01:29:18
VA Zach
no
01:29:20
Conor Fowler
true yeah i mean with this smith thing like yeah but but yeah it is truly a blessing and a curse
01:29:23
VA Zach
Oh.
01:29:24
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
01:29:25
VA Zach
My ah SEO is abysmal, for better or for worse. um So you know if I ran for office and people were trying not...
01:29:36
Matt
Yes, yes,
Maintaining Professional Social Media Presence
01:29:36
Matt
it is.
01:29:37
VA Zach
like and i The reason I have a Facebook still, which that is not the username, by the way, for that, please do not look for me on Facebook. um The reason I have a Facebook is so that I have an easily searchable social media presence to show that I am alive because In my experience, both as someone who hired people and also who looked for a job, it's always weird when there's nothing ah about a person.
01:30:02
Matt
Right.
01:30:04
VA Zach
And as much as I enjoy posting the content that I post on Instagram or on Discord, um it's it can lead to an insertion conversation when I'm talking about things like SQL, and they're like, hey, so what do you have?
01:30:21
VA Zach
And you talk a lot about this What's an OCBD? but
01:30:26
Conor Fowler
ah That's gotta, that's gotta be the title we of the episode.
01:30:27
VA Zach
but
01:30:29
VA Zach
ah
01:30:30
Conor Fowler
Jesus Christ.
01:30:30
VA Zach
yeah oh Who's JPress? What's that about? Is he a rapper? and of like ah but That's a good question.
01:30:39
Conor Fowler
Right. yeah
01:30:43
VA Zach
Anyway, it ah but it's just a lot easier to separate at least that component of myself for professional reasons, but everything else, Zeometer, and the only reason I know it's pronounced like that is because I got referenced in one of the Style and Direction podcasts, and it was pronounced Zeometer, and I was like, oh, but that's not right.
01:31:11
Matt
Right.
01:31:12
Conor Fowler
I will.
01:31:13
VA Zach
And so I was like, oh, it's actually, it's pronounced the opposite of how you did it, but thanks for the shot at Ethan, you're great.
01:31:19
Matt
Yeah. Yeah.
01:31:19
VA Zach
um
01:31:21
Matt
It all works out.
01:31:21
VA Zach
fight But yes, you can find me on Instagram and on Substack at ziometer, Z-E-O-M-E-T-E-R.
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:31:31
Matt
Hell yes. Well, I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
01:31:38
Conor Fowler
And I'm Connor Flower at Connor Flower.
01:31:42
Matt
And if you would like to, send us questions, comments, concerns, apocalypsestuds at gmail.com or at apocalypsestuds on Instagram. And we will see you next week.
01:31:56
Conor Fowler
Sure. Goodbye.
01:32:13
VA Zach
Thank you.