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Ep. 221 – Somewhere Between John Hume and Russell Brand, Things Went Awry w/ Jay Bakker
2 Plays4 seconds ago
This week we’re excited to welcome back pastor, author, and cofounder of Revolution Church, Jay Bakker! Jay joins us after a trip to Ireland where he toured historical sites connected to one of his heroes, John Hume, a legendary Irish politician and peacemaker who worked to build bridges between Catholic and Protestant factions during “The Troubles.” We discuss John’s life, the shifting landscape of politics and spirituality, and the odd phenomena of militant celebrity Christian converts. Jay is about as genuine a guy as you’ll find, and we absolutely love getting to chat with him! Follow him on Instagram and YouTube (@jaybakker), and learn more about Revolution Church at www.revolutionchurch.com. You should also check out Elton John’s “Tammy Faye,” a Broadway musical about the life of his amazing mother, Tammy Faye Bakker! Jay says it’s an incredible production, and we can’t wait to see it!
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Transcript
Christian Celebrities and Evangelicalism
00:00:00
Speaker
You know, like I was saying, this is like sometimes with these Christian celebrities, and you know, you got the two Christian Baldwin or the two liberal correct Baldwin and Kirk Cameron. We're talking about Kirk Cameron. Like they just really buy into this evangelical thing 100 percent.
00:00:12
Speaker
And I almost wish we had like an oh and um what's his name? um Russell
Reclaiming Christianity for the Left
00:00:19
Speaker
Brandt. Oh my God. Don't get me started. He's favorite Christian. Yeah, but what I mean, I was watching Russell Brand and I was like, okay, this guy seems like kind of middle the road for a while, like a couple of years ago. was like, you know, sometimes he says stuff that makes me mad. Sometimes he says stuff I like.
00:00:34
Speaker
I like to be challenged. This is cool.
Introduction to 'Growing Up Christian' Podcast
00:00:37
Speaker
And then he kind of got into the Jesus thing and all a sudden he was like, oh, Republicans and all this thing. And and it's like, to me there's this thing of like somebody's got me i'm doing a podcast next week and they're asking me like reclaiming christianity for the left or something and for me it's not even like reclaiming it's just kind of i don't even want to say that it's like it's like how do we just get better message or thing like hey you don't have to give up your career you don't have to vote republican guess what jesus wasn't a republican or a democrat you know i mean like you don't have to do any of that stuff like
00:01:26
Speaker
everybody, we are back with another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. I'm Casey. And today we are joined by ah ah very special guest, a two-timer now.
00:01:39
Speaker
Maybe you've been called a two-timer before, but it's a good thing over here. Not since high school. um
00:01:46
Speaker
ah Jay Baker. What's going on, Jay? Oh gosh, just... Living in the same world you guys are. so Yeah, yeah that new the new hellscape that we're all trying to navigate.
00:02:00
Speaker
yeah You live in the meme?
Managing Social Media Overload
00:02:02
Speaker
and Live in the meme, bro? Yeah, live in the meme. if it does feel like we all are, yeah. I was in and and Northern Ireland for 10 days, and that was really nice because I just ah put my phone on airplane mode, and I can only use it Wi-Fi and...
00:02:18
Speaker
So I wasn't doom scrolling for 10 days, mostly. That must have been a refreshing break. It was really nice. it was really nice. you know I mean, I was with Pete Rollins, so we were talking a lot about philosophy and stuff, but we didn't really talk a lot about the news. So that was nice. I imagine the news cycle on U.S. politics, we're inundated with it here. You can't go anywhere, do anything without It being like incredibly... pre like it's um it It feels like you can't turn off here, almost. like I do my best right now to just not inundate myself with the news, but even like you know Instagram ads, everything is just like... Everything It's all promoted material based on past searches, which have been pulled over. much...
00:03:08
Speaker
like conservative stuff recommended to me now on Facebook and not like just normal conservative stuff, but like really crazy stuff, you know, like really crazy memes and stuff. And I mean, I'm just like blocking all that. I don't know what to do. Like, how do you be like, this is not what I want, you know?
00:03:25
Speaker
you know try like I have my own private one where I have like family members and stuff and people who like put crazy things up. But this is even crazier. um i my normal Facebook, it's even... I mean, on my public Facebook, I'm getting even crazier stuff now. you know It's like... so I don't know. it's it's It's a bit... We're in Zuckerberg's Portnoy era.
00:03:47
Speaker
It's too much. I have a friend of mine who was working with me for a while and he... ah He put a lock, like this special lock thing on his is and as his Facebook and on his Instagram and stuff. So he has to put in like a little extra code just so he doesn't do it, you know, just get on there like we all do.
00:04:08
Speaker
It's like the modern day equivalent of Covenant Eyes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's protecting you from the people that probably brought you covenant eyes or whatever.
00:04:19
Speaker
crazy Yeah, probably crazy that now I think people's political, like the, the, uh, people's media consumption is now surpassed pornography when it comes to how much it destroys your psyche.
00:04:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. wild. I have, um, Instagram. I hate Instagram now because, uh, I got, I made a mistake guys. Um, yeah I got a promoted ad in my stories and it was some like AI, like chat bot kind of website.
00:04:48
Speaker
And it said you could, I had the option to block, like, I don't want to see this anymore, but I was curious as to what kind of way it was. I mean, it was like a woman in a dress. It was obviously meant to be sexy, but I was like, I'm curious as to what type of like, is what really is this? Is this like a creepy, like smarter child, but for,
00:05:10
Speaker
you know, older men who don't, I think this recently happened to Dan Crenshaw. Yeah. Well, anyway, I clicked on it. I go, yeah, this is exactly what I thought it was. Like you can make an account and you create your own person.
00:05:21
Speaker
It's very weird. It felt like uncanny Valley. Like, um, so, you know, yeah, X out of it. Well, now every time I go to my Instagram stories, I see it like every three stories. It's just like trying to pull me back in just, and you can't even click on anything. And like, uh, out of curiosity, without absolutely destroying your algorithm.
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah. I don't even feel like you can't even do anything anymore that way. Like, I like I was in the store the other day and I sent my girlfriend this thing. I was like, Oh, i'm gonna try this oil valet. I'm going to younger.
00:05:52
Speaker
and and, and then like, i started getting advertisements for it. And I was like, this is just, I mean, Oh my God. um was like, how is this? Like, have I just agreed to something of like, anytime I mentioned a product anywhere, make sure I hear more about it. You know?
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah. So it is getting very strange. Yeah. I thought about something for the first time in a while, like last week. I can't remember even what it was, but then i I got an ad for it like two days later. and Just reading your thoughts. Maybe you accidentally got a Neuralink.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe. Well, I got a watch band, and I get like – so my my son was like, hey, I want to watch the um oh Mr. Beast game show.
00:06:36
Speaker
And I'm like, well, I don't have Amazon anymore. but he's like, well, can you do the 30-day free trial so I can watch the game show? Yeah. I said, sure, I'll get it. And I said, you know, and I, and why we had it, I got a watch band on there.
00:06:48
Speaker
And then all of a sudden we're watching and then the advertisement comes up and it's just this no words, silent advertisement for watch bands. You know, like I'm like, AI created an advertisement commercial for me to be in between the show for watch bands. Oh God.
00:07:04
Speaker
I just, you know, it just feels like, it feels like RoboCop or whatever, you know, it just feels like that kind of apocalyptic movie. Like, you know, and then we're all a product McDonald's commercial with like a really famous person. You know I'm going like, wow, it's like it used to be this was the beginning or the end of your career when you did like McDonald's or Taco Bell commercials, you know?
00:07:22
Speaker
Maybe, maybe Elon did like two sided tape, a Neuralink chip, like to the side of a all of our MyPillows. ha he just They're all bugged.
00:07:33
Speaker
Just wiggles into your ear like ah like a worm.
Political Disillusionment and Economic Inequality
00:07:36
Speaker
My dad sent my kids a couple MyPillows. Like Bible characters on their MyPillows.
00:07:44
Speaker
Oh my god. we Very cool. My pillow. So we were at my wife's grandmother's house and she brought, she likes her. She loves her mind pillow. Cause she just likes anything conservative, ah including her pillows. And she was like, my wife was given one by someone in the family. And she was like, I hate, like she hated it. She was like, my neck felt so fucked up after using it. Like she was miserable. So Whatever. And then even like caught other people in, it's what?
00:08:15
Speaker
It's like cotton balls inside of a bag. Yeah, that's all it really is. yeah um And even other conservative people in her family that bought them to support this guy was like, no, this product is actually trash.
00:08:27
Speaker
But her grandmother is holding on strong. And we were over the other day and she was like, what's wrong with my pillows? I was like, I don't know. I just, I don't really know how they feel. I just draw the line at sleeping on pillows made by the absolute biggest dorks on television. And she was like, what?
00:08:43
Speaker
I can't believe you'd say that. He's a nice man. He deserves our support. We got to keep this man in mustache, wax, and fin fin. Oh, well, my pillow.
00:08:54
Speaker
But, uh, I do have a, I think I just came up with a really, cause see, like if you're going to grift, if you're going to sell up like a ridiculous product, like you kind of want to grift off of conservatives, right?
00:09:07
Speaker
I mean, if you could trick conservatives into buying a ridiculous product and making money off of it, like, I feel like that's, that's it. That's the American dream at this point. And like, what, you know, those anime mice, like those anime body pillows.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah. Oh yeah. Take to the coffee shop. What if we did those, but with the founding fathers on them? You could rest with your favorite founding father.
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah. And you could have like a full sized Abe Lincoln and then like a pint sized Ben Shapiro one. That's the one that goes between your thighs. Yeah. like a sciatico Throw pillows on your bed.
00:09:49
Speaker
Your dream Congress on your bed. The whole Mount Rushmore. Nice. But Jay, so you were in Northern Ireland. Anything just to get away? Or is it, what did you have going on over there? I had, I had, I was doing a talk with Pete back in, I think, 2018.
John Hume's Legacy of Peace and Equality
00:10:08
Speaker
And we were going to talk about my mom. We ended up making a film about it. It still hasn't come out, but we did it. but um But we were going to do a talk originally and COVID hit.
00:10:19
Speaker
And so I got, a my my ticket got put on hold. And then I got a message recently saying, this is going to expire in a few months, in a month or two. So I was like, oh, I better go. so I just got the ticket and went out for, I got called my ex-wife and said, could I go for 10 days? Can you watch the kids? And she took the kids to Disneyland, which was really cool. And I just went oh nice for 10 days and I wanted to go down to dairy and see, um, John Hume's grave and and do some of those things and hang out with Pete. And so that's what we did. We just hung out for 10 days and it was good. I needed it. It was nice to be away, you know, cause I've been doing a couple different jobs here lately and,
00:11:02
Speaker
Just needed a break. So that was nice. Yeah. Who is who's John Hume? Yeah. Pete's out there. Okay. Cause he was LA for a while, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he might go back to LA.
00:11:12
Speaker
he He talks about every now and then, but he's been out there ah over a year now back in. Okay. Who, who is John Hume? John Hume, uh, was a politician, um, and Northern Ireland. He was a Catholic politician.
00:11:29
Speaker
He originally helped start um start banks for people who were, what are they called? what are those You know those individual banks that you can go to that are always really nice? um Credit unions? Credit unions, yeah. He started credit unions in Northern Ireland and dairy and things like that. But then he got involved in politics and was really inspired by Martin Luther King Jr.'s nonviolence to help stop the troubles, which was the civil war that lasted for about 30 years in Northern Ireland.
00:11:57
Speaker
And John Hume had the idea of the only way we can make a decision for Ireland is if we do it together. So it has to be Protestants and Catholics have to come together and make the decision together of the future for Northern Ireland.
00:12:14
Speaker
And so he started bringing people together. um Ironically, because of that, he his house got firebombed a few times by his own people. Because, you know, it was so tense that they didn't really like him trying to bring people together.
00:12:29
Speaker
But and it took 30 years, you know, um he would say stuff like, well, you can't eat a flag and things like that because, you know, they were oppressing each other quite often. Yeah. and So he was like, you know, everybody's like patriotic. And he's like well, you can't eat a flag. We've got to figure out how to do this together. And and he would talk about how it's important to find diversity, yeah equality through diversity and really great man.
00:12:54
Speaker
And so he it was a very normal guy. Like when I went to find his grave, I went into the graveyard and it's this beautiful, big graveyard. and I got lost trying to find his grave and um finally found it. And it was like in the working class area next to the street where these little strips in between road, you know, and I thought his was going to be up in this big area. well And he was just this real, and it was him and his wife in one plot.
00:13:17
Speaker
You know, it was like, he was just this really down to earth guy. yeah um Not the most amazing speaker, not a really handsome fella, but He just was an incredible person who understood the need to bring people together.
00:13:33
Speaker
And, uh, and he did that. And so he's one of my heroes. So I, I, I wanted to go pay my respects and and then there's a big, uh, big painting of him in Derry too. It says peace on it. It's up on my Instagram. You can see it. and I went got a picture in front of that as well.
00:13:52
Speaker
And he got he's the only man to win three peace all three peace prizes, which is the Nobel Peace Prize, the Martin Luther King Peace Prize, and the Gandhi Peace Prize.
00:14:03
Speaker
And so he has all three of them and his peace prizes were in a museum there. And so I went in just to see the peace prizes and do that. So that was really cool. Wow.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah. So did, um, and then it's kind of good transition to some of the stuff I want, we wanted to
Political Discourse and Media Influence
00:14:21
Speaker
talk about, right? Because, um We, i'm still just trying to figure out what's on your microphone, but yeah, let's go ahead.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's always the avocado. It's the avocado sock. Is it to keep you from popping? Yeah, I had an actual pop filter, but I lost it. And I just, the sock apparently works just as good as something you can spend real money on. I might have an extra one I could send you around here somewhere. i was When I was doing my podcast, I really thought pop filters were made you professional.
00:14:51
Speaker
It's like, I need to order some of these. but it looks good. Well, and it's funny because I did try this without anything on it. And I was like, it did sound like ass. It was not... you it echoed it popped it was it sucked so oh good um i was like because that was right after i lost it uh and then i was like all right i guess i'll just throw a sock over and see if that works and the it sounds just as fine as a pop filter so the avocado sock is staying what i should do is switch the sock up more often yeah um i have a lot of socks i don't wear some crazy socks maybe it's kmart i get gift i get gifted
00:15:30
Speaker
Look at us all getting into Fox thing. I'm sorry. yeah Well, no, no, we'll get into John Hume. I need to point out something about, this is a constant like argument.
00:15:41
Speaker
Uh, it shouldn't say constant, but at least once a year around the time of Christmas, uh, it comes up because I'm not, I don't like giving gifts. I don't care that much about giving gifts because I also don't really like getting gifts makes me uncomfortable a lot. Um,
00:15:57
Speaker
I feel like I'm not a good gift getter because I i just have come to the realization that i I'm apparently not a thoughtful person in that regard. um I don't see things and go, oh, so-and-so would love that.
00:16:09
Speaker
Not my wife, not my kids. I'm terrible at that. It's a very conscious effort around the holidays to not be an absolute scumbag. But when it comes to getting gifts, I have been getting...
00:16:24
Speaker
I have been gifted probably four years in a row of just like crazy socks. I've never worn a pair of fucking crazy socks in my life. And every year people go, hmm, this seems like Sam. And I go, all I feel every year is that I'm just reminded of how little people know me.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't want to impart that same frustration onto others. that's why I just... don't just so it's actually kind of generous of you give them the next year just make sure you know who gave you and then you just kind of split them up into other areas and people oh you know me so well i could i got marvel one not it was like marvel comic character ones and i'm like i've never i've never expressed an interest in in marvel or socks so this is a kind of a double i mean i uh
00:17:11
Speaker
And I could, i and i've I was, I'm moving. So I'm getting, I'm packing up my house and I, I just, I had the, the donate pile going and I finally threw a pair of unopened box of those Marvel socks that have been in my closet for five years. And finally they'll go to, they'll go to somebody who could really use that. hat Yeah. Hopefully somebody just realizes you just need a mic filter and get you that for Christmas. Yeah.
00:17:38
Speaker
That'd be thoughtful. Or and my a built-in filter. Everybody get together, get him one gift. He'll be really happy. he does a podcast. but i yeah Well, and i and I tried, I don't bring that up around a certain.
00:17:51
Speaker
Oh, that's right. Yeah. Family members don't love this. So it's not exactly a yeah a topic of conversation that comes up too often. It's been my life. It's just, I know you, I applaud that because I'm in my in-laws basement doing this right now. And I still feel like i have to sneak down as an almost 40 year old man.
00:18:12
Speaker
I have, you know, it's funny. Yeah. it Like, I just can't really hide anything because my work and my life are kind of so intertwined that I, and everything I do is like, you know, so my politics are on my sleeve. My life is, you know,
00:18:29
Speaker
what I'm doing is on my sleeve. My theology is on my sleeve. know what mean? It's just like, um i i try, you know, it's hard to, keep you know, certain things I keep somewhat private, but not like my kids pretty much, but you know, that's about it. yeah You know, I just,
00:18:46
Speaker
You know, that's the that's the problem when you take transparency so far in your work that it's like, oh, oh, well, I guess that'll when you don't have a degree, you have to be a little bit more transparent with people. You know, when you're like self-taught, I feel like you have to be a little bit more transparent with folks, you know, so I'm not like, I'm going to get up there and spit out some facts. But.
00:19:07
Speaker
Right. Yeah. and You have, when you have, and once you have enough PhDs behind your belt, you can just say words and people go, i guess sure yeah, sure. I'm on board. Like I, I at least believe that, you know, what you're talking about.
00:19:20
Speaker
Unlike, like look we don't try to get into the, we don't, we will talk to smart people. I don't, I think we try our best to not feel like we're disseminating knowledge on this podcast ourselves.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah. but told All right, John Hume, ah because you and I were talking about him a little bit when um but I messaged you about joining us again, because I think now ah is a and um like it's an original thought.
00:19:47
Speaker
obviously Now is a strange time, right? What? It's obviously... yeah
00:19:53
Speaker
uh a very divided time we've been saying that for 16 years um and it's just it's not even worth talking about whether or not it can get worse because that's just the trajectory we're on we've seen no improvements remember thinking during george w's thing like was like oh it can't get any worse and this is the word and you know and the only thing i was seeing a lot of in atlanta was either people with w stickers or the w with the cross out it was like in atlanta there was like a war It was like the w or the no W stickers. Who's going to win? You know, was like, it can't get any worse than this, you know, and i I've just done saying that all together. So.
00:20:32
Speaker
yeah yeah where Then you find out the guys you like did really shitty stuff too. So it's just like, oh, you know. Do I want ignorance and bliss type of thing? Or do I want to just know the reality? like Sometimes the thing I worry about with Donald Trump is like, is this the kind of the stuff they were talking about in the back rooms and we all just didn't know? So we're like, oh, it's cool. you know And now we're just kind of like seeing somebody with zero filter and it's like,
00:20:55
Speaker
this has always been, you know, it just, yeah I'm sure that's, hopefully that's not it, but sometimes I worry that kind of, kind of feel like that's it. Yeah. I feel like the shameless, like, um, the, the, the shameless, like shakedown of other countries and stuff. It's like, this is just, we're just seeing it now instead of it happening in back rooms, you know, disguised as like pro-democracy, this and that, you know, had a friend who was asked to come talk for like the Harris campaign And then they were like, yeah, but don't mention, you know, don't mention Gaza at all.
00:21:30
Speaker
You know, don't make you can't mention this and you can't mention this. And I'm like, and then my friends of social justice, like that's his whole face of his career. And I'm like, well, why would they ask you to do something and not talk about social justice? You know, and they didn't even want to be like, don't say that we don't agree on everything. You know what I mean? it but I was just like, it was so disillusioning, you know, you're just like, yeah. In fairness.
00:21:53
Speaker
What is there left to say about Gaza? Yeah. I mean, at the time there, I felt like there was it was good to have Christians speaking out, you know, and and and and saying, hey, we don't agree with the progressive Christians saying, well, we don't necessarily agree with our Democrats either, but where we think that they might be a better choice. And and and they were just saying, nope, not going to do that.
00:22:15
Speaker
I mean, ah not to. you know, rehash some talking points from so long ago. I mean, we're already in February and it feels like, it feels like even having this conversation is like six months ago. I did a talk one is, is empathy a sin and it felt dated.
00:22:33
Speaker
yeah And that was like a month ago. Like, and that was two weeks ago that I gave the talk. Okay. So it had been two weeks since that happened. And I felt like I was talking about, you know, uh,
00:22:45
Speaker
Gosh, I don't even know what, since I'm trying to think of something dated, you know what i mean? But, you know, like Marvel Fox, whatever, you know, like I was talking about something and that was like super, you know, like, Hey kids, have you heard about CDs, you know, or whatever. And it was like, that was two weeks ago.
00:23:00
Speaker
So, know, it's nuts. I was in my in-laws kitchen, uh, just, uh, and they had the, they had, They had the Newsmax on, and I heard some cool like some cool a cool new term. They refer to all the people who have problems with what our current president is doing is Trump derangement syndrome, and that's what the libs have. and It's been going around for a while.
00:23:27
Speaker
Oh, I've never heard that one. But you know what? i've I've been talked to by friends ah friends that I have. um I've had friends for years that – you know, conservative friends for years. And some of them have said things to me like where I had an argument with somebody because I felt like they kind of overstepped their boundary with me a little bit publicly. And I was like, well, let's talk about this.
00:23:47
Speaker
And they were talking to me as though I was deranged and asking me if I was like, had, you know, medication to be able to take and things like that, because, you know, the next four years are going to be really hard on you if you're already freaking out.
00:23:59
Speaker
You know, and i just was like, it was really like, This really strange thing of like, oh, you must, you know, you must, it's like I would have hysteria or something. They're going to put me in the psych ward, you know?
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. Lobotomy. He needs a lobotomy. He's got, he's got hysteria. But in this, in this conversation, they were talking about how the, the problem with, with, um, with these people is that like, I don't know. It's hard to remember word for word. Cause it's a lot of silly things, but basically they're the, the, the gist was,
00:24:32
Speaker
The problem with the Democrats is they just don't they just didn't support weapons sales to Israel, and Trump's there for them taking care of that. And I'm just like- That's is click yeah mean that's exactly what they did. wait And it just drives me nuts because i like my family members sit there and listen to that, they're like, yeah, that's the problem. I'm like, oh that's not the problem. like No. i don't They were- $28 billion of weapons that the Democrats sent. Yeah, Biden was so good to Israel's genocide.
00:25:02
Speaker
So good for it. It's funny how they'll when they when they periodically like take the same line on a subject, like Biden temporarily held up that shipment of 2,000-pound bombs to Israel for, like I don't know, like three hours or whatever. Yeah. and like it it It was funny because it was like the left – was sort of like, look, he's he's trying to check them in a way and get them to think about their approach and stuff. And the conservatives are like, he's trying to check them and violent. It's, yeah. Neither of you are correct.
00:25:40
Speaker
It's insane that there's so many, so many things that are very similar that they do. Yeah. it' I don't know. I'm very disillusioned to be honest with you. Yeah. So in light of that, right. In light of the past, you know,
00:25:55
Speaker
Oh God, that's been going on for a while actually. But, and then like, you know, our, our, you can see the disillusionment in the majority of American people with ah their feelings towards the, united the murder of the United healthcare CEO, like,
00:26:13
Speaker
I feel like you in your Instagram and in your public work, maintain a sense of hope and optimism. And that's genuine. I don't mean that as though like i't and just on just publicly you're doing that.
00:26:26
Speaker
And I think you also do well grappling with in talking through the challenges that come with that. Yeah. yeah But ah you know, you, you know, you talk about John Hume and and the impact that his work and has had on your life in,
00:26:43
Speaker
um your, how your faith impacts your view on these things. And you and I have just kind of gone back and forth a little bit because I like many, um even probably like yourself. It's just like, you know, we, I think it,
00:26:59
Speaker
in It's like a cartoonish way. Like we watched a CEO get gunned down the streets and nobody fucking cared. Like i don't care. I don't feel anything about that.
00:27:11
Speaker
I have a moral compass that I try to align myself to. That tells me that, that I don't necessarily believe in that as a form of revolution.
00:27:24
Speaker
But also my sentiments are, let's just kill more of these people and see what happens. Like, because it's hard to feel anything about it. It's on the news. It's like watching the purge. It's not, I'm not connected to it. So i don't know. I just c said a lot of things, but I just want to hear from you on like where you're at it with all of these things going on and and like how you process it.
00:27:48
Speaker
In light of like your beliefs and your optimism and your hope process. And is it, mean is is it true that Luigi was a deacon at revolution church? whats that Is it true that Luigi was a deacon? He's too handsome to be going revolution church. No, I'm just kidding. I'm all online now. So maybe, um, you know, for me, it's, I'm not like, I'm not an optimistic person. Um,
00:28:17
Speaker
you know But hope is... I do feel like I'm kind of chained to hope a little bit. like that delineation. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of a pessimistic person. I mean... But I feel like without that hope, I really don't have much to offer.
00:28:31
Speaker
um And, you know, it's like this kind of, i really believe in nonviolence. like Like with the Luigi thing, like I understand the anger. i understand why that happened. I mean, I can barely find, um I have insurance that's, you know, the thes insurance I get through yeah you know Washington State, but I can barely see a doctor. I mean, I get my kids to to the doctors because they make sure the kids can get the appointments and stuff.
00:28:55
Speaker
But, I can't, you know, and I need to get a colonoscopy, my second colonoscopy. My mom died from colon cancer. You know what i mean? Like I got to do that stuff and it's hard to get done. I had one appointment and that was literally i had to make so far out. But by the time I got to that doctor's appointment, my insurance had changed and I had different insurance. So I couldn't go to the doctor. I tre still showed up like, hey, my insurance changed, but I made the appointment. They're like, nope.
00:29:20
Speaker
And so I was like, okay. So it's frustrating. um It's frustrating what these huge corporations do and what the but what what what what they they do. And so it is fresh and I understand it, but I also understand that that violence creates this kind of just cycle, you know, where we're going to see like, they're going to, you know, they're already saying they want to give Luigi a life, you know, for, oh, let's give him a death penalty. We can't give him the death penalty. We'll put him life in prison. You what mean? Like guys who shoot up schools don't get that much time.
00:29:50
Speaker
You know what mean? and but when you do violence against the government, then they just clamp down, clamp down, clamp down. And so for me, it's like, that's not a, you know That's not a
Justice System Challenges and Activism
00:30:01
Speaker
solution. I think all I to do is really make security companies really just get more money and these guys get more security and then feel more self-righteous and and become worse. like i just I don't think it's going to make anything better.
00:30:13
Speaker
I think it maybe woke people up. Unless we do it calculated all at once. Yeah. like everybody needs to be like ah nice movie. It's got to be like a hit film, like like you know some guy in a van, like...
00:30:24
Speaker
All right, five, four, three, two, you know. yeah Or like Thanos. Maybe you got to get a Thanos for for insurance agencies. Remember Fight Club when they blow up all the credit card places?
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah. You know, but that kind of world doesn't, we don't live in that world anymore, you know. It's all somewhere else. It's all in the cloud. Yeah. And there's people waiting to take those places. You know what mean? Like, it's like that.
00:30:51
Speaker
People are, you know, there's lots of people who are willing to like, you know, do that. And I understand. It's like, if you go like, well, nobody else can have health insurance, but if you do this, you'll have the best health insurance in the world and your family and your grandkids and their kids all be taken care of forever. And you're like, I'll sell everybody out.
00:31:07
Speaker
That's like watching Mark, is it Mark Rufio? Like when he's in the chair and he's just kind of like sinking, like he kind of realizes when when they were having that argument in the White House, you could just tell that he was just like, I've sold my soul, but...
00:31:18
Speaker
You know, like he was seemed to be the one guy who's like, oh, this isn't probably what I should be doing with my life. um But it's too late. um But I dont think there's a lot of people who don't feel that way.
00:31:29
Speaker
um So I guess for me, as I feel a lot of despair about it, um obviously I tweet stuff about it. And it's so funny because like you would like I hear from you and you're like, oh, how ja how do you remain hopeful? You know?
00:31:44
Speaker
But then I hear from other people like oh, why are you buying into that? Why are you putting this stuff up? Why are you so depressed? Why have you given up? Why are you? You know what i mean? I just, everybody's got I must be really depressed if I think you're depressed sounds helpful, but. Yeah, right. There you go. I was just thinking that. i was like, oh, maybe we should get him in a fair seat.
00:32:02
Speaker
Get him some socks. I think some Marvel socks would cheer him up. There we go. Is it DC? Are you more of a DC guy? um ah I'll take Spawn socks. Get me some Spawn socks.
00:32:15
Speaker
Spawn socks. Ooh, he's a little bit edgy. he likes the indie comics or formerly indie comics. I like Spawn too. Spawn's a pretty badass hero. i'm Anti-hero.
00:32:26
Speaker
you know I don't feel like I'm making much sense right now. um When you first, like when you, when we last texted with each other or Instagram or whatever it was, and I was feeling a little bit more upbeat, probably.
00:32:38
Speaker
yeah like oh yeah i was like, no, you got check this out and read this. But at the same time going to John, there is a reason I went to John Hume's grave and asked Pete to drive me like an hour and a half to dairy, like kind of,
00:32:51
Speaker
nowhere for them, you know, like, a can you take me a long drive so I can go to this, look at this grave that, you know, nobody's really at. And nobody thinks about this guy that much outside of Ireland, you know, can I go and look at this and, you know, but it's kind of just like this tangible thing of like, this is a real person,
John Hume's Human Side and Influence
00:33:10
Speaker
you know, as as a real human being and who really spent his life making sacrifices and,
00:33:18
Speaker
doing hard things. And like Martin Luther King almost seems angelic some ways. i mean, I know he was fallible and very human at the same time, but even when you go see his grave, it's like, you know, and it's him and credit together in the middle of this fountain. you know i mean? There's just kind of, we, and we have more of our hero worship in our, in our country, you know, and here's John Hume, like right next to the road. You know what i mean?
00:33:40
Speaker
Like like it literally like oh shit six feet from the road, you know, and I'm just like sitting here and just let me know when you're ready. ah Okay. We're good. I mean, i like I said, I just wanted to go to the grave and make it tangible. I wanted to you know see his final resting place. you know The sad thing was with John Hume is that he he ah got dementia at the end of his career. and so I didn't even remember what he did. you know I didn't remember like probably creating one of the greatest peace processes in in in the history of the world. Yeah.
00:34:11
Speaker
um But I just, I don't know. There was something that I you know i needed to see. the I wanted to see the awards. I wanted to see these things. I just wanted to see like this town where he lived in and you know the reality of this kind of thing that keeps encourages me to be human and allows me to be human. And I think that's one of the reasons I really like John Hume is because he would say stuff like,
00:34:30
Speaker
You know, the only way we're going to go forward is if we learn to agree. Like that is not, that's like kind of a crappy quote, you know, like, well, okay, but that's easier said than done. But like, if you take that quote and realize it goes 30 years, you know, and and all the work you put into that. So there's a big, I don't know. I like the humanity of it.
00:34:49
Speaker
So people like, people like that John Hume, just hearing a little bit about him. It's hard to imagine somebody rising to that position, like in the U S just because i don't, I don't, I mean, there's a very few characters that share like ah like a sense of legitimacy from like the two sides of the aisle.
00:35:12
Speaker
And I mean, I'm kind of struggling to even think of any right now, but I mean, I think Bernie Sanders kind of bridges that gap at times. Um, but like that's reverend is there's there, there there's Reverend Barber who who runs the poor people's campaign and he's often respected from both sides of the aisle.
00:35:32
Speaker
Um, you have people like, uh, Cornel West, who really speaks truth to both sides, he's not winning any popularity contest, but at least we know he's equally critical. critical So I think you do have a few people like that.
00:35:51
Speaker
It's just if we listen, if people take them seriously or not. And for me, i would like I think it's going to have to be a movement of the people. I don't think at this point we can trust our politicians to do that.
00:36:06
Speaker
And so I think it's going to have to be things like, and this might happen sooner than later if if if if all these cuts really hit everybody. You know, I've been seeing these, ah these what do they call them, like these townhome meetings, these,
Grassroots Movements and Historical Leaders
00:36:20
Speaker
you know, around around the country of like all these conservative representatives talking to their theyre people in these like town hall meetings and and they're really angry. They're angry, you know, even conservatives are angry for some of the things that are happening, some of the cuts that are happening with the veterans and things like that.
00:36:37
Speaker
But we're not seeing a whole lot of it. I mean, we're seeing more of it because we do have things like Facebook and Instagram. And so I try to tune in and find out where those things are. And I'm hearing, you know, people who are really concerned about what's happening, but we're not often shown that. And and especially in the legacy media and ah not even on like even on BBC is not really showing that. So you kind of have to kind of search that stuff out. But I think we're going to have to it's going to have to be a movement of the people. And still you'll realize, like, you know, like what just happened in Iowa where they got rid of transgender civil rights.
00:37:12
Speaker
You know, hundreds and hundreds of people showed up to protest that and they still passed it. um But it's going to take people. It's going to take the people speaking out and the people just saying, we're we're not going to take this anymore.
00:37:23
Speaker
And so for me, I'll find a little bit of hope in everything going so crazy right now is just for the fact that maybe people will say, you know, see the common need that we all have is that, you know, my hope is that people say, OK, we all need to have affordable health care. We all need to be able to pay our rents.
00:37:39
Speaker
We all want to have jobs that help us, that allow us to pay our rents and and and yeah maybe do a little something else with our family. um And my hope is that those are that. mean, that's what Reverend Barber really does is bring people together through that, those basic needs and says, we're not going to side with the right or left. I mean, I've seen Reverend Barber turn down things with groups that are.
00:38:00
Speaker
that are more left or more right. Cause he said, you know, no I'm really trying to stay neutral on this. But then you've got groups like the Elton John AIDS foundation. That's always been very neutral with politics too. Cause they have to be able to raise the money for AIDS. And, and often they can do a bipartisan raise, but even they're speaking out right now, a worry, worried about the, the AIDS, the aid cuts, the U S aid cuts and all these stuff, you know, of like what's going to happen.
00:38:25
Speaker
So you're starting to see some people speak out that haven't spoken out in the past, And that gives me a little hope, um you know, and i'm I'm starting to, you know, see people who who are realizing that the the Democrats don't have the answer either. And we're seeing that the Democrat Party is being, besides Bernie, being pretty silent right now. And that's pretty disturbing as someone who was a lifelong Democrat myself. And so I'm something's got to change. and And my hope is that by bringing up people like John Hume and bringing up people like Martin Luther you have to remember Martin Luther King, when he was assassinated, was extremely unpopular with the black community and the white community.
00:39:08
Speaker
He may have been actually more popular with the white community at the time than he was with the black community because he started doing the Poor People's Campaign. He actually started the Poor People's Campaign that Reverend Barber's doing And that wasn't just focused on civil rights, that was
Conversations for Political Understanding
00:39:20
Speaker
focused on everybody. Everybody thought he was kind of, you know, he speaking out against Vietnam.
00:39:24
Speaker
He was doing things that says, well, you know, this isn't really civil rights, Martin, you're kind of losing your focus here. and And a lot of people didnt still didn't really like his nonviolence ways of of doing things and didn't think that was really relevant. So he was he was really unpopular.
00:39:38
Speaker
We look at him now and we go, oh, he's a saint and he has a holiday and giant statues and you know all this stuff. And Jay's got a badge with him, you know all this stuff. But the fact is, is that that's just the reality he was in.
00:39:49
Speaker
and I think that's what we just don't know is when you say, well, there's not really those people, but you might be those people. You know, that's what I hear when like when I when I hear from Sam, ah when I heard from one of the things I often thought about our conversation and i was thinking, well, Sam, I don't want you to give up because you might be that person, you know, or one of the people that helps the person. You know, we all get or might it might not be a person this time.
00:40:12
Speaker
You know, what's the other choice is that we just give up, that we just go, oh you know, or I become like, you know, well, maybe I'll become a millionaire and I'll just move to another country. know Like we, what's the other choice? The other choice is either we just let it happen and we just go nap, throw arms up and just, it happens and everything goes horrible.
00:40:30
Speaker
Or we try, we try to, to, to do something a little bit better. We try to help people see, we try to help people understand misinformation. People are always like, Jay, why do you argue so much with some of these people on Facebook? They're crazy.
00:40:43
Speaker
I was arguing with this guy the other day and he finally was like, you know what, Jay, you're right. He's like, I just don't have the faith in this stuff anymore. And I've lost because i I believed in nonviolence before. I believed in all that stuff. And I don't think, you know, now I've lost hope and I'm i'm glad that you have hope and I'm glad you're pushing me. And I, but he started out with telling me that I was basically full of it and all this stuff. But we got to that point where we were able to find this common ground and, and realize where he was coming from. So to me, that's, you know, I can't do anything else, but try to you know, i do really take the heart of loving my neighbor as myself and loving my enemies and,
00:41:18
Speaker
And I don't necessarily like people, you know, but I do love people. I do want to see people eat well. And I do want to see people be able to live well. And I do want to see kids be able to have free. school I mean, what's crazy to me is this kind of this idea that I see a lot of people carrying lately is this kind of like rugged self reliance, you know, and I put up this thing on one ah recently about free school lunches thinking like this will be the great uniter. I'm going to say free school lunches for poor kids and, you the conservatives and the Democrats are all going to come together and be like, this is a great idea. Let's talk about this.
00:41:50
Speaker
And I was so so surprised by people were like, Nope, maybe they could have like three weeks, but after that it's over. We shouldn't have to pay for their parents' mistakes and all this stuff. And I was just, and this was coming from like conservative folks and not even conservative Christian folks. This one guy was a conservative atheist. He's like, well, your God says it. Can you tell me what my God says? Um,
00:42:11
Speaker
Oh, that's a classic atheist move. Yeah, classic atheist. There's one version of God, and it's the one that I think is relevant for my argument. Right. So it was just, to me, i was just like, listen, you know, it doesn't really have anything to do with that.
00:42:25
Speaker
You know, i mean, maybe some ways it does, but for me, it's like, you know, they these are children. These are your fellow Americans. Like, if... you know If we want to be a United States, you know we should be worried about our fellow Americans, especially the children, especially our fellow citizens who are children who have you know aren't responsible for themselves.
Economic Inequality and Responsibility
00:42:44
Speaker
And if they have parents that can't take care of them, we should be worried about them and hoping that they at least get one decent meal a day, much less three decent meals a day. um But there's this poverty cyclical. I think that's another thing that's so frustrating to try to communicate is like poverty is cyclical.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah. And if you don't deal with it, it's just it's never going away. And it's going to like just look, take the humanity out of it. Yeah. We're talking just pure numbers.
00:43:11
Speaker
yeah It costs less to fix poverty. like And inequality also plays a part of that. It really hurts and causes poverty when we have inequality. much have we given to – I mean all the numbers. I mean how much have we given to – look, and I – we don't have to go open this can of worms. But just for just for the sake of the point, the um amount of money that we've given to – Ukraine versus like what, and then saying we don't have enough money to fix our problems here.
00:43:41
Speaker
It's like we, that doesn't, it, everybody knows that doesn't make any fucking sense, but we've all just kind of like resigned to this idea that this is just the way it is. And it's so, it's so wild, as especially in Jay, you also pointed out like, uh, if we are a United States and this is the thing that has been really salient with me to me with this administration is,
00:44:04
Speaker
how much everything is being, I mean, it's all, the the intention seems to gut, to be to gut the Fed, the federal government, and to to always default to this idea of, well, states, right, states.
00:44:19
Speaker
Like right now, North Carolina is having, is it North Carolina or South Carolina, having these like wildfires? Is that where it is? um know there's a big, there's some on Japan, I think China right now or Japan, but I'm not sure, I'm not sure about what's going on in North Carolina. I mean, honestly, I,
00:44:32
Speaker
News is changing so much. I don't know. Maybe I saw something. It doesn't matter. i'm just like We just watched in California, and the problem was we can't send money there until they vote the way we want.
00:44:43
Speaker
Yeah. But then we'll default to states' rights on things that are convenient. like There's just this mishmash of ah whether or not it's the the responsibility of the federal government or the state.
00:44:57
Speaker
states rights. Are we going to become 50 independent countries are we going to figure out how to make this work? I don't know. It's really interesting. The state rights too as they try to use you know segregation but you know that was the thing. is like you know The whole South would probably still have you'd probably have still have some segregated places in the South if it wasn't you know for federal bills being passed to you know for equality. so You've got things like you know there's been somebody I've been following, this guy named gary Gary's Economics. He's a British economic guy.
00:45:27
Speaker
And ah he's been really good at talking about like, you know, what economic people, what like big economic teachers and stuff don't talk about is like inequality and how it affects the bottom line, you know, and how, you know, equality actually, if people are more equal and, and, and then if, if rich people were taxed more that we would, we would all live a little bit better. And, um, yeah.
00:45:49
Speaker
He's really good. I really recommend him if you're on um Instagram, go to Gary's economics or just type in his name. He's got a book that just came out too. That's like number one in the UK. He's a young guy. He's like our age. He wears like hoodies and stuff. And he used to be like this, you know, he's made millions of dollars being an economist.
00:46:07
Speaker
And ah now he just wants to help folks. And it's, it's, he's, he's really like, really amazing. The UK kind of has some like drastic poverty problems as well. And they've kind of done the same thing as us where they've turned like their major cities into just like...
00:46:23
Speaker
foreign asset parking, you know, for like this class of mega rich people who don't live there and don't spend money there and use it as a tax haven and a place to stabilize and store their, their wealth, you know, at the expense of the people who live there and, you know, affordable housing and all that stuff.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah. I I have some friends who live, that live over there and it's, it's really expensive just like it is here. I mean, I live in Washington state. I live in Seattle, actually Seattle proper now.
Urban Economic Struggles
00:46:55
Speaker
And, uh, know, I have to work two or three jobs sometimes just to make when I can get it to make the ends meet, you know, it's, it's really tough. Um, but um one of the interesting things from my, my, you know, from doing painting apartments, um is is I had less time to study and less time to kind of work on my theology and read philosophy and things like that. And I would just come home exhausted.
00:47:23
Speaker
you know, exhausted and hungry and come home, cook something for myself, you know, or, you know, get get to pick up the kids from school, cook them some food, get them to bed.
00:47:35
Speaker
and if they're not here, then cook something for myself and like veg out and watch some stupid Netflix show. And you start to realize like a lot of people who are just working hard every day,
00:47:47
Speaker
are exhausted and they're not sitting around thinking about theology. They're not sitting around thinking about philosophy. They're not even necessarily sitting around thinking about economics, except rather im how I'm going to make my next bill, how I'm going to afford my stuff.
00:48:01
Speaker
And so when you think about stuff like you see Trump doing with like just blasting us with all this stuff every day and you think people exhausted, like, you know, they just, people are exhausted already.
00:48:12
Speaker
And they just don't, you know, I don't think we know what's going to you know, I think a lot of people are are not informed well. You know, there's a, and some people, like you said, we're watching the right-wing news on all the time or the left-wing news all the time.
00:48:24
Speaker
And we scapegoat each other and we're not having conversations. But, you know, I'm trying to use social media as as much as it drives me insane um to be a place of trying to connect people from different walks of life to have these tough conversations.
00:48:40
Speaker
and to try to find some hope in people coming together. um But I think we're going to have we need more people who are thinking that way. mean, they don't even necessarily have to think like me, but people who are at least thinking like, how can we bring community
Social Media and Political Division
00:48:53
Speaker
together? i mean, I went to one of these things that Reverend Barber did for the Poor People's Campaign, just ah just a video chat here.
00:49:00
Speaker
You know, there's like 65 people on the chat and I had no idea it was going on. It's the past and friend of mine told me about it. And so one of the things I recommended was like, hey, you guys need to like advertise this a little bit more that you're that there's a chapter here.
00:49:12
Speaker
I didn't even know there was a chapter here. And I had met with Reverend Barber a week early. Someone introduced to me on a phone call. Shane Claiborne introduced me to him on a phone call like a week earlier.
00:49:23
Speaker
And I still didn't realize that they had a Seattle branch. You know what i mean? So i was like, we've got to get the word out and let people know that this is here and what's going on. And I think if we can able to get the right tools in people's hands, the right knowledge in people's hands, the right, you know, helping people listen to informed speakers and educated speakers. That's why i like Dan. And that's why i share Dan, because I'm not going to be Dan.
00:49:44
Speaker
You know i'm not going to go to school and become Dan McClellan, but I'll share his stuff with my people. I'll share him stuff, you know, direct messages with people I care about who might not necessarily agree with it, but try to start a conversation about it.
00:49:54
Speaker
Yeah. Um, you know, so this is, is this, it's tough, you know, I've got some people, I just can't even talk to anything to politics with them about cause it just blows up, you know, on both sides, you know, and that's what really wild to me is I feel like I'm kind of, you know, and I've got people who have been like, oh you know, who, who were saying sly things to me every now and then they'll send me messages and be like, Oh, we should have known better. We should have gotten Kamali.
00:50:18
Speaker
You know, because they know I was really hard on the, uh, on the last president, on the last regime or whatever. And and I was really you know critiquing their what they were doing and people weren't excited with that. So people kind of like slag on me because they were like, well, see, you should have shut up.
00:50:36
Speaker
But I couldn't shut up. you know I couldn't be quiet. you know I mean, my fear of ah of of of Trump was not enough to be me to shut up about what I felt was a genocide. It's hilarious to act like that's like criticizing the past regime for their like obviously terrible policy and behavior and results and everything, you know, is is somehow responsible for like, you know, the fact that they didn't win this election. They literally proposed they didn't they didn't propose anything.
00:51:07
Speaker
throughout the entire campaign. It was their lack of responsibility with it. Like if that's what people are criticizing it for and that's the populist movement and they refuse to address it and double down and don't let people talk about it and then go, it's your fault. We lost. It's like, no, it's your fault. You lost. You had it in the fucking bag. Yeah.
00:51:27
Speaker
You know, and, and, and the fact that like, yeah, I mean, it's just, it, it, You know, but they play, i identity they keep us divided through identity politics, you know?
00:51:40
Speaker
And so like, oh yeah if I'm like, let's say like I'm a gay person and I have to choose between, you know, Democrat or Republican, of course I'm going to go with the Democrats. You know they gave me gay marriage. They gave me equality. They made me feel, you know i mean? And so they'll be like, well, are you still loyal to us? you know i mean? You better stay loyal.
00:51:57
Speaker
And they use us, they use that as a platform. So, you know, the thing is, is like identity politics in some ways can seem really positive when used in a correct way. But then we realize they turn around and they use them against us and say, well, now you have to, you know, now you have to toe the line with us because we're the only ones who care about you.
00:52:15
Speaker
you know And they manipulate us. Yeah, so it's it's really it's really um it's really sad to
Hope Beyond Capitalism
00:52:22
Speaker
see that happen. And I hope we can get away from that. I mean, I often think about that verse in um Galatians where Paul says there's neither Jew nor Gentile, man nor female, Greek, or you know slave or free.
00:52:35
Speaker
We're all one in Christ. And I've never thought of that as meaning that only Christians are one. But I thought what he was trying to say is there's no hierarchy, there's no loarchy, there's no identity except humanity. And, um, and I remember a few times speaking that a couple of years ago and people were really upset about that. Cause like, you don't understand my identity and how dare you, you know?
00:52:54
Speaker
But I'm like, no, what the point is, is that we all need these basic things, you know? And that's really what we should be asking the government to do is with our taxes is give us these basic needs. Just, Hey, we want to be able to afford groceries. Hey, we'd like highways. They're pretty cool. They get us places pretty fast. Yeah. You know, um you know, we we we like the fact that we help other countries that are very devastated by AIDS and hear that some of our help maybe helps these people survive and live a little bit longer. And, you know, we get to help those people. And then sometimes those people come back and move to our country and help us, you know, whatever. It's like we're part of a bigger community.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yeah. but it doesn't seem like we're we're there, but I'm hoping that maybe this is the point where it's kind of being all burnt down. You know, maybe this is the end of capitalism, you know, because capitalism promises to fill a void and then promises to protect us from the other and do all that things. And hopefully we realize like we have to live with the void and that the other is not really the one who's dangerous to us. It's the capitalistic system. It's these people who bought into it and now look at it I mean, we literally have the richest man in the world, you know,
00:53:58
Speaker
ah
00:54:01
Speaker
you know, cutting all these programs from, yeah you know, the world. We often have another one of the richest men as our president. You know, it's it's, you know, capitalism doesn't seem to be doing us any favors. um But unfortunately, some of our family members, like you said, this is, you know,
00:54:17
Speaker
what is it growing up Christian? You know, we grew up Christians who were like, Oh yeah, you know, rich Christians are good people, you know, and it's hard to, to wake those folks up. If when they're jerry falwell if it's Christian, it should be better.
00:54:30
Speaker
Yeah. Right. You know, and, and, And for me, it's if it's Christian, he's always been kind of par or crappy or weird or working an angle. it's Yeah, that all their parallel institutions. Their cinema has definitely not been better.
00:54:44
Speaker
yeah the ah The only thing that's been better is their fast food. And I think that's what he was talking about was Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A, yeah. I mean... That Popeye's chicken sandwich really does give it a run for their money. But yeah, Bojangles, if there was more Bojangles, we would be done. But and don't know if you guys have ever had Bojangles, but man, that place is rocking.
00:55:06
Speaker
Bojangles is pretty solid. Yeah, yeah. They're the ones that go hard on charging for extra sauce, aren't they? I don't know. Speaking of capitalism. If it's good chicken, you don't need sauce. I've had a lot of places going hard on extra sauce lately. I've noticed.
00:55:22
Speaker
It's awful. Where was I recently? I can't remember. but that's ah That's indicative of the world we live in. like i like I feel like that's one thing everyone can agree on. ah Left, right, center.
00:55:33
Speaker
We need to start talking about the up charges on sauces. And I think we could get somewhere. And shrinkflation. yeah Yeah. son is i know my son's nine years old and he's always talking about shrinkflation. He's oh, shrinkflation.
00:55:46
Speaker
I bought it. We literally we had Domino's last night and they we got the lava cakes with them. And he was like, the lava cakes are smaller, Dad. It's shrinkflation. was like, maybe so. That's so funny. I bought bacon the other day, like, that's a good deal on bacon. And then after I put it in my cart, I'm like, motherfucker, that's 12 ounces, not 16. Yeah, that's kind of how they get us.
Evangelical Celebrities and Cultural Impact
00:56:12
Speaker
Have you seen the ah the trailer for Iggy and Mr. Kirk? Mm-mm. Who is it? One of capitalism's finest outputs in the past several years, I'd argue.
00:56:26
Speaker
This is something we just learned about, but Kirk Cameron is i know he's on the he's on the fundraising tour asking for money to fund his new kids show.
00:56:39
Speaker
The first ever kids show that actively fights the woke mind virus and speaks truth to the Hollywood groomer class.
00:56:50
Speaker
you know That's another thing I don't get about these guys is that when these celebrities become Christians, they often go straight to evangelicalism and they buy in really like all they like, they just totally come right out in it. They're like Oh yeah. Okay. So I've got to be a Republican.
00:57:05
Speaker
You know, my career is pretty much done. And, you know, I've got to do really bizarre stuff. I've got to believe in really bad science. And I can't believe in, you know, any really solid biblical, you know, they like Dan will never be on their radar. You what I mean? Like, it's it's really, to me, it's really like strange. Like, so what recently what happened, i you about three months ago, i saw something with ah the Baldwin, the Christian Baldwin brother.
00:57:35
Speaker
Stephen. Stephen Baldwin. And he was saying something about the devil had taken over Hollywood. And he was saying, like, look at what Christmas movies they are. And he's basically saying there's no Christmas movies. And i just he just didn't look well. And I don't usually comment on that stuff. But for some reason, I just commented. I'm like, he doesn't seem well.
00:57:52
Speaker
And literally three days ago, i got this really long, nonsensical comment from Stephen Baldwin saying, I mean, it made no sense. There was an alien emoji and a weird face.
00:58:05
Speaker
Now I also met Alec at the, ah the premiere for the Tammy Faye on Broadway show. Alec Baldwin showed up and I talked he like grabbed me on to the red carpet. I introduced myself. He's like, let's get a picture.
00:58:18
Speaker
And I said, hold on, let me get my phone. He goes, no, we can just get one. hands up don't you And he pulls me onto the red carpet and gets pictures with me. And, um, So, and I told him how I saw him. I said, you know, when I went and saw Jesus Camp in New York, you were in the theater.
00:58:33
Speaker
And I said, I said, when you walked out, I said, wow, this is going to make Thanksgiving a bit crazy, huh? And I said, because I was thinking about Stephen and he laughed. He thought that was funny. But I actually, I did say that to him. I'm you're going have weird Thanksgiving, huh? Because i think it was right before Thanksgiving.
00:58:47
Speaker
But we saw Jesus Camp in the same theater. that I mean, he was like sitting two rows ahead of me. I was like, oh my God, i' like Baldwin. One of the things about the interesting, you know, like I was saying was, is like sometimes with these Christian celebrities, and you know, you got the two Christian Baldwin or the two liberal Baldwin, but it's how they really buy into the, and Kirk Cameron, we're talking about Kirk Cameron, like they just really buy into this evangelical thing a hundred percent.
00:59:10
Speaker
And I almost wish we had like, and oh, and um what's his name? um Russell Brandt. Oh my God. Don't get me started. my favorite Christian. Yeah, but what I mean, I was watching Russell Brand and I was like, okay, this guy seems like kind of middle the road for a while, like a couple of years ago. was like, you know, sometimes he says stuff that makes me mad. Sometimes he says stuff I like.
00:59:32
Speaker
I like to be challenged. This is cool. And then he kind of got into the Jesus thing and all a sudden he was like, oh, Republicans and all this thing. And and it's like, To me, there's this thing of like, somebody's got me, I'm doing a podcast next week and they're asking me like reclaiming Christianity for the left or something. And for me, it's not even like reclaiming. It's just kind of, I don't even want to say that. It's like, it's like, how do we just get better message or thing? I'm like, Hey, you don't have to give up your career.
00:59:58
Speaker
You don't have to vote Republican. Guess what? Jesus wasn't a Republican or a Democrat. You know what Like you don't have to do any of that stuff. Like, you know, when I was in, I,
01:00:08
Speaker
ah high school, my mom gave us, us being my brother and I, a book called Don't Check Your Brain at the Door. And it was conservative propaganda, conservative evangelical propaganda about college.
01:00:25
Speaker
ah about like Yeah, like you're going to be good. Yeah, good title. Don't check your brain at the door. And I read it and it was just, you know, bull it was like that typical bullshit apologetic stuff of like, you know, you straw a man the enemy, you, it's just, breh it's all just, yeah, I mean, exactly what you expect. Apologetics make me insane. Insane.
01:00:47
Speaker
You're going to go to college and there's going to be these people who tell you these things, but don't check your brain at the door because you're a Christian and you already know everything there is to know and no one can teach you anything. So tell them to eat shit and die. That's kind of the message of the book.
01:00:59
Speaker
And i um,
01:01:03
Speaker
Your life is God is not dead. Yeah. And it's so funny because it's like that. That's the messaging is like, and then you watch people like ah Casey and I have been, I've been sending some videos to Casey ah because There was this, there's this comedian and whatever we'll talk about him. I'll, I've tried to get him on the podcast. He hasn't responded.
01:01:25
Speaker
So it doesn't matter. Shane Smith. um He's a comedian. You he's recognizable because he's got a bunch of face tattoos, like the dagger down the sidebar triple X, like he's got, he's covered.
01:01:39
Speaker
He's gone full blown. Like Catholic apologist. Like, well, you know, I don't, I yeah i don't, understand the idea about not about not using contraceptive, but because I know the Catholic church is true, I'm just going to fall in line and accept that it's true, even though I don't understand it.
01:01:56
Speaker
And I'm like, that is the most infuriating logic I've ever fucking heard. Yeah. I had a buddy come become Catholic. and do the same thing, except he just stopped talking to his trans daughter, you know, all together and cut them out. And this was somebody I knew really well. And I was really surprised by the fact that this was even that that even happened.
01:02:15
Speaker
And I didn't I mean, we had talked and I didn't realize how far it had gone. But i had talked with his ex-wife and it was just I mean, to me, that's that there's nothing about what I read in the Bible that supports that.
01:02:27
Speaker
And so if you, when you basically you're just, you're, you're, you're subscribing to traditions at that point, you know what i mean? You're just subscribing to, you know, um, you know, people say, well, what about the, the, the creeds and the things like that? And I'm like, i I just don't care. You know, I, tradition such a big part of Catholicism and that, and evangelicalism, let's be real.
01:02:51
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Catholicism actually has doctrine around the idea. what is that Like Calvinism has like a lot of that as well. You know, um a lot of creeds and all the creeds and this and that. And, yeah know, and to me, I'm just like, this,
01:03:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But if the creeds are exactly the opposite from what the main dude is saying, and then the second main guy is saying, you know, and then the things that agree with that guy, you realize are forgeries that we're trying to fix up from what that guy was saying.
01:03:19
Speaker
You know, we've got an issue here and we should talk about this stuff. And I think that's where it's frustrating is that kind of check your brain at the door mentality of like, you know, I sat down and was trying to talk to my dad the last time I saw him, which was years ago.
01:03:33
Speaker
And I was like trying to talk to him about Paul Tillich and Hegel and all these things. And he just didn't know. And like when I talked to him about like um being a socialist and things, I mean, he just thought that was awful, you know, and it was frightening to him.
01:03:45
Speaker
But I could imagine if speaking to him in prison about it, he would have probably been a lot more open-minded because there was, he he kind of lived more of a reality when he was in prison. And we had some really great conversations back then. and so I really hold tightly to those moments that I had with him.
01:04:00
Speaker
But it's like he's just back in that thing of like like, no, dad, these guys, these guys don't study their whole life to like trick you. You know i mean? They don't study their whole life and go to school and read all these really, really boring books.
01:04:13
Speaker
I mean, trust me, I read some of these books. They are deadly boring to get this knowledge, you know, that. to just screw you up. You know mean? Like even like Bart Ehrman, lot of people, Oh, Bart Ehrman, Bart Ehrman says some really things that seem more Christian to me than most Christians. Sometimes I read something today and I thought I was reading like a Christian motivational thing.
01:04:34
Speaker
And then at the bottom it said Bart Ehrman. was like, Oh, wow. That's weird. I'm not used to hearing that from Bart Ehrman, but you know he he's a biblical scholar. you know and like These guys aren't trying to like you know they're not you know trying to destroy it. They're just trying to get us to understand what the knowledge is and the history is and what's going on there. and As ah someone who was raised a tradition that talked about literalism, I literally thought that that's what I was supposed to do, is look at good scholarship.
01:05:01
Speaker
you know Not look at apologetics. Not look at people who are trying to pop and flip and make it all. But look at the real history behind it and look at the real language behind it and look at the traditions behind it.
01:05:14
Speaker
And so I learned all that stuff. and And I thought that's what I was supposed to do. And then you come I come back and I'm like, well, then I did it. And they're like, no, no that's the wrong stuff.
01:05:24
Speaker
You know, you're supposed to listen to like the world's oldest youth pastor. He's got this great book on apologetics. And I'm like, dude, I think, like you said, the don't check your brain, like we we're watching all these people shift into this thing and immediately go like,
01:05:40
Speaker
Now I resign to all of the talking points that I'm told are true by this institution that I'm placing my blind faith in. Not to mention institutions that have royally fucked up consistently throughout the millennia. Like when you look... But I just wonder... I'm not saying all Christianity has it, but like... Is it some sort of pain in their life? Is it a desperate need for certainty? Is it capitalism that's promised to fill the void so it hasn't? So now they're trying to fill it with religion?
01:06:08
Speaker
but the religion has to have certainty. you know what mean? Like to me, there's gotta to be some sort of unconscious trauma or reasoning behind why this is so widely just like accepted and like, okay, this is it.
01:06:20
Speaker
You know, and I'm going to hold onto it and I'm going to take it all hook, line and sinker. Like there's nothing that I like that I take hook, line and sinker. Like I love PIL and I love the sex pistols, but sometimes things John Lydon says I think are crazy. You know what mean? i like Morrissey, but some the stuff I think Heath says is great. There's lots of people I like and lot of people I read, but I don't agree with a hundred percent of it, you know, and that's okay.
01:06:43
Speaker
Um, You know, I mean even there's times where I've listened to Reverend King speak and I was like, oh, seem a little self-righteous. You know what i mean Like, it's like, that's just, it's okay to disagree. I mean, that's part of life. I mean, my best friend and I, always we we disagree about stuff all the freaking time. You know, it's like, it's it makes things interesting. And it just seems like there's this this this need to have everything perfectly laid out, you know, and have this ultimate knowledge to be like at this security blanket.
01:07:12
Speaker
And, um, and I just, I don't understand it. I don't understand how they don't, how they can collate between like Jesus. He's like, says all this stuff in the beatitudes, but you know, everybody always wants to leave out the last part of the beatitudes about, you know, loving your enemy and praying for an enemy enemy and praying for those who persecute you. Like we all do it. Like progressives do it.
01:07:31
Speaker
the conservatives do well, like that area is a little bit fuzzy, you know, because Jesus sounds like a pretty crazy hippie for most of the Beatitudes. And he's like, now love all those people who are giving you hell.
01:07:43
Speaker
um You know, but like if we could kind of figure that out, we'd realize, oh hey, well, if we're supposed to love those people, doesn't mean we have to like what they're saying. I mean, Reverend King said, thank God Jesus said, love your enemies and not like your enemies. He's like because I can't like people who firebomb my house. I can't like people who lynch my friends, but I can love them and see validation the validation of needing them to be set free from what causes them to do that and set free from misinformation.
01:08:10
Speaker
So, you know, it's like, but you were, you know... Sam, you're talking about that community that you're are a part of. And when we were talking earlier and your friend who who who runs that church.
Faith, Doubt, and Personal Boundaries
01:08:22
Speaker
ah right yeah well that part of I think that's what kind of made me think of like the don't check your brain thing where it's like you, you fall in line with this idea and then you just buy into everything hook, line and sinker like we were talking about. And yeah,
01:08:37
Speaker
I was more than happy to just, oh did you, man, we were about to have gold. Yeah. i' getting It's gotta be my, we'll have to wrap this up after this thought. It's frustrating, but it's worth it.
01:08:49
Speaker
Um, yeah. So I think that like what I was thinking of when it, when it comes to these like, don't check your brain at the door stuff is like, I, I was part of a church community.
01:09:00
Speaker
It's still sort of exists, but it's more just like a little gathering. Um, but, When I was part of this community, my close friend of mine, who's the pastor of the church, David, he, i i believed in the mission of this thing, but I was never bought into any one thing in particular. There was no church ethos on our little staff board thing. We had very conservative, like who at this point would be MAGA Christians. Like,
01:09:32
Speaker
All the way to, you know, people who supported Planned Parenthood. And yes it got weird. we It got weird at times. This was, and let's be honest, like all the conservative people left because they felt like their mission was to change everybody's minds and to shift the church right.
01:09:51
Speaker
And when it didn't go the way they wanted to, they just got tired and they left. I never felt like I needed to shift the church out of anything. um I never felt like I believed the same way and that didn't matter because I believed in the mission.
01:10:04
Speaker
I believed our ethos was the same. I was definitely more like I definitely would have more identified as a Christian then than I do now. I struggle with that. I don't think I do.
01:10:15
Speaker
um anymore. I don't think it, I just don't think the term is super relative for me, but it didn't matter because I just was aligned with this idea of a way of believing and living.
01:10:29
Speaker
And that, that, that way is what changed people's hearts and minds to live into something bigger and more beautiful, regardless of whether or not I agreed with anybody about what God was, who God was, what the Bible meant.
01:10:45
Speaker
And I'll even like real quick, I remember a conversation. We were like doing one of our like so our meetings before church on Sunday. And one of the guys asks, um Sam, do you want to open us in prayer? And I just said, no, thanks. I'm all sat.
01:11:01
Speaker
he was like, it like oh better pray today he was like, what? I was like, no, no, I just don't pray. I just don't pray with people. Like, that's just not, I'm not doing that.
01:11:11
Speaker
I don't like that. I don't pray out loud for other people with other people anymore. And he's like, okay, like so thrown off. Uh, and my friend David just laughed. He's like, don't, I got it. Don't worry. Like, and we just moved on. And I was, that was the first time my life where was just like, you know, I did the pageantry before I just would, Oh, father, God, thanks so much for, I was just, I got to point where I was like, I'm not doing that. No, it's good. I think that's a freaking great boundary. Yeah. I went to this church that was a Calvinist church. didn't realize it was Calvinist. I just knew they spoke a lot about grace. I didn't realize it was limited though. Yeah.
01:11:49
Speaker
fantastic until I realized it was limited, but they would have worship. And so I would always show up late and leave early. I didn't want to talk to anybody. I just wanted to hear the guy talk, but they would have words. So sometimes during worship, I would sit and I would just sit there while they're all standing up and doing their thing. And I remember this guy and I'm pastoring the church at this time. Okay.
01:12:07
Speaker
You know, and this guy grabs me by my back. Jay, are you doing okay, brother? mike Yeah. Yeah. just, this isn't my thing, you know? And it was like, really like the next week, I think the pastor was like, if you're not doing worship. You're not ready for the, you know, and I was just like, okay, this is ridiculous.
01:12:23
Speaker
Like, I don't need me to be passively aggressively told, like I need to you know you know, Simon says type of stuff. um You know, but ah two things, you made me think of two things when you're talking when you're talking about that community.
01:12:37
Speaker
And one is is one of the things that I remember as a kid is is when I first saw the Ku Klux Klan in North Carolina doing a march. And it was the first time I said fuck in front of my dad.
01:12:49
Speaker
And I those motherfuckers. And it was right after we lost PTL and my, my parents were meeting, we were doing a church in a roller skating rink. You know, we'd lost everything, you know, Jim and Tammy are now pastoring in a roller skating rink. Okay.
01:13:02
Speaker
Uh, they used to have the third biggest park in the world, like Disneyland, Disney world heritage USA. And now we're at a skating rink, but you know, whatever. And, um, And i saw these Klan people marching on the way. And I said this, my dad says, Charles, you know, he doesn't want me to say fuck. So Charles, I said, dad, I think this is horrible. i hate these people. But he's like, well, we're not supposed to hate anyone. And he's like, but that's the thing with America is that there's people have the right to do ugly things that we hate, you know?
01:13:29
Speaker
But I remember that sticking with me. And the reason I say that is, is like, I don't want to see clan marches. And honestly, if it was up to me, they wouldn't be allowed. But because I'm an authoritarian, but not, not really. But the thing is, like, for me, it's like, listen, I want to give those evangelicals who buy all in that we were talking about like, hey, if you guys want to have churches and you want to do your thing and you want to say oh, we don't think you should be gay. And we like the...
01:13:53
Speaker
Like, as long as you're not making bills, you know, passing bills to like, make it illegal for my gay brothers and sisters, as long as you're not making bills out of your convictions, I really don't have a problem with you existing, you know, go and exist. I can live in a world where we have our LGBTQ church, we have our progressive churches, we have no churches, you know,
01:14:12
Speaker
we have all different religions i would you know that's the kind of thing like okay you know you have purple churches like you said churches where you have maga people mixed with you know liberal people you know and they're all mixed and they call those purple churches and you have those and i think that's great too i think it's great if those people can come together i think that's more healthy But then again, what I'm trying to say is I think everybody has the right to to to exist in this country and do their own thing. It's when we start to take get into the politics and we try to control each other that that's where it really becomes an issue. And that really bothers me. but
01:14:44
Speaker
And I wish that would be a conversation we could have with some of these folks and saying, like listen, it's You know, we don't hate you. It's not that we don't want you to exist. i mean, and I know a lot of like, you know, deconstruction is like, I don't want to see these people destroyed. I'm like, I don't want it. I don't need you to be destroyed. I just need you to not make bills. Yeah. to pass Laws on your convictions, your religious convictions, you know, your personal conviction. That's fine.
01:15:06
Speaker
Um, But also one of the things you had said, don't know if it was during this or one of the other talks that I feel like me and Sam have had some really interesting conversations, sometimes even argued a little bit. Have we argued a little bit?
01:15:17
Speaker
A little bit. Yeah. Oh, there's been some pushback here and there. Yeah, and that's good, right? Because look at this. We're here talking about this. But the fact that you said you don't you you said to me once, you you you don't feel like, yeah, i don't know if i like being called a k Christian. i don't know what I am. I don't feel comfortable with that.
01:15:32
Speaker
Dude, me too. I pastor a church. I talk about Jesus. I follow Jesus. But, you know, Paul Tillich said... A doubt is not the opposite of faith. It's an element of faith. And I always liked that, but I don't ever think I got the depth of it until I was reading this Martin Luther King book that just recently came out. I don't think it recently came out, but it's this big biography that someone wrote about him where he talks about that quote because he was really, Dr. King was really shook by Nietzsche.
01:15:59
Speaker
Like he was really like, oh, am I wasting my life with, you know, okay you know we loving people as a weakness and all this kind of stuff. and But then he talked about this Paul Tillich quote And he really took that Paul Tillich quote really full circle of for me. Like he really was like doubt as in disbelief, not just like, oh, I don't know if it's, I don't know know but if it was an actual arc. You know what i mean? I was not talking about that. the cute version of it. I don't know if it was really water into wine, but you know.
01:16:27
Speaker
um But like literal, like, I don't know if there is a God or not. You know, I don't know if there maybe there's no God or or there is no God today. And he was saying that this is an element of faith intertwined with faith, that these are not two separate things.
01:16:41
Speaker
And that's what what kept him going so many times. And there have been so many times for me where I've just wanted to give up. And I didn't give up because I saw some Martin Luther King quote or something that he said.
01:16:52
Speaker
And then now reading this book, I realized it has a lot to do connected with that very, that quote from Tillich that he just made, hey, this is just part of it. Like not believing in it, wanting to give up, losing faith and because of all the way people act or because people can't understand. This is part of it. This is part of the ah journey.
01:17:10
Speaker
This is as much a part of faith as anything else. And that those two things allow me to to go through the day. Because when you said, well, I don't know what I am. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere either, because I'm not I'm like you. I'm like, I don't want to pray about You know, and things have to get pretty bad for me to pray about it.
01:17:28
Speaker
You know, I mean, i have to be pretty desperate to be like talking to God in my room, you know So I think that that that should be, that's part of the faith journey. and That's part of faith. That's part of, for me, christian my Christianity or whatever it's called.
01:17:44
Speaker
But, you know, I don't believe in the same ways. And I'm sure and there's some times I don't, you know, I don't talk to my kids a lot about Jesus and stuff like that. I'll ask, you know if they ask me about talk. but I'm not trying to indoctrinate them how I was indoctrinated. I actually probably overcorrected a bit in our relationship with the kids, but, um, and their mom, their mom doesn't cause their mom's an atheist.
01:18:05
Speaker
So, um, but I'm not worried about heaven and hell and anything like that. You know what I mean? For me, yeah what I'm worried about is just helping people know that they're loved, they're accepted yeah and helping them to see that within others. Right. Like, so if you call that Christian cool, if you don't, if it's something else, I don't care where you're coming from. if that's your motivation, your ethos. no like I'm not trying to convert mega Christians to become Presbyterians or anything for, or whatever. i never can, can't keep up with the denominations anymore or whatever.
01:18:36
Speaker
Free Will Baptist or something. there Oh, there's some really good ones now. um I just want them to maybe say, okay, what is it like? what ah How do you see me through your eyes? And I also want to know how ah ask them, how do you see me through your eyes? So maybe we can realize that we have some, miss we're we're misunderstanding each other. you know that's That's how we can can build a little bit from that. Like, well, why don't you want to pray? Well, let me tell you why I don't want to pray. Or let me tell you why I think you know scholarship is so important to me.
01:19:08
Speaker
in my faith, you know what i mean? is As part of my faith. Let me and let me help you understand why it may be the same way that apologetics are to you or literalism is to you and how this is, for me, this is another form of literalism because I misunderstood what you guys were saying.
01:19:23
Speaker
yeah know what I mean? And I would hope that this would allow us to to grow together, but I honestly don't feel like it's going to. I don't feel like my wife has done much. I feel like I was way more productive before I was ah supporting my LGBTQ brothers and sisters. Like, revolution was at really at its peak.
01:19:41
Speaker
And like 2005, right before I decided to say, hey, and I think gay marriage is cool and we should support it and we should do this. You know what i mean? And I always believed it. I just finally said it out loud and kind of went into craziness town. but But I still hope, like there's still this tiny little bit of hope within me.
01:19:58
Speaker
With all this discouragement, with all this like, oh God, I'm working, you know. Over Christmas, I was painting houses. The next day I was working in a Christmas tree lot. You know what mean? I was doing all this stuff.
01:20:09
Speaker
and and And then like barely being able to do revolution. I was exhausted trying to get stuff for my kids, trying to make sure my bills were paid, trying to do all this stuff, you know. and wanting to give up but there's always this tiny bit about a hope and it's hope for other people and i don't know if i get that from my mom or from my dad or from like maybe that was the part that got in you know in you know but bible camp that got stuck into my head that you know jesus loves you jesus loves everybody and that kind of stuck within me and i want to love everybody and care about everybody
01:20:42
Speaker
And, you know, you remember you ever seen that t-shirt that says, kill them all and let God sort them out. You know, you'll usually see those in Army Navy stores. um black I want to say like love them all and let God sort them out. You that's the kind of thing is, you know, but I also want to help educate people and help them understand stuff. But it's tough, you know, because as soon as I think I have it, I go spend 10 days in Belfast with my best friend, who's a philosopher. And I realize how dumb and how little I do know. Yeah. You know, so it's it's always like this kind of struggle to go through this stuff. And as we're all onslaughted every day, and it's so wild to me to like turn on freaking Facebook and see all these people who are like,
01:21:22
Speaker
well what is it? Zelensky? Is that his name? And everybody's like, you know, pictures of him saying like, I fucked around and I found out, you know, all these like conservatives putting all this kind
Rugged Individualism vs. Societal Responsibility
01:21:30
Speaker
of stuff. I'm like, I don't understand how you guys like see that in such a different way than I do.
01:21:35
Speaker
But that is, I have to practice radical acceptance in my life and realize that they do. And so for me, I want to find out, okay, well, why, why do you see it that way? And do you see it that way? Cause you think you're supposed to see it that way.
01:21:48
Speaker
And what is with this radical, like need for like this, this rugged individualism that just doesn't care about the other. One time, um, when I was in Belfast years ago, I didn't realize that people do rounds in Belfast. Everybody buys a round of drinks.
01:22:05
Speaker
just thought everybody was really great. And I only did that. That must if you go out with like eight people. Okay, yeah, so I'm like getting all, hey, Jay, you want another Diet Coke? I'm like, sure, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, this is fantastic. you know And everybody's getting, right hey, Jay, you want another Diet Coke? Yeah, sure. Because I'm used to being in America where like if you're at the bar and you're not only drinking Diet Coke, half the time the bar just says, oh, you can have the Diet Coke. We just want your friend's money.
01:22:28
Speaker
you know And them not to sue us, so you drive them home. Okay. Right. um You're doing them a huge favor. i was' I wasn't participating in the rounds. And so later, Pete was feeling kind of upset at me, and then he couldn't figure out why. And then he was like, oh, you know what? you're You're just getting free drinks. You're not buying anybody around. And he's like that's part of our custom here is that you buy around.
01:22:50
Speaker
and But before that, he and i and it was really hard for him to have that conversation with me. And he told me this story. He's like, well, there was this tribe, Jay. I couldn't figure out why he couldn't just say something to me. And he finally did. he goes Typical philosopher bullshit. Oh, instead of just telling you the thing, let me give you a 13 minute story.
01:23:07
Speaker
a did. terrible I'm going to, I'm going to shorten it down for you. i'm tried that i don't remember. And it was obviously somewhere in the jungle because they all relied on each other, fishing and hunting and gathering and doing all these things. And there was one guy who lived his life there with everybody, enjoyed the food and did all this stuff.
01:23:26
Speaker
And he was supposed to fish, but he just decided, i've there's enough fish. I don't need to fish. And So he wasn't pulling his weight, but he was just, you know, reaping the sort, living, doing all these good things. and so they had to decide. that The tribe met together. So what are we going to do about this guy? And so they made the decision and they killed him.
01:23:46
Speaker
And I was like, Pete, this is not a good story. I changed my mind. I like this now. This is fun. yeah And I said, so what they killed him? And he goes, yeah.
01:23:57
Speaker
He goes, because sometimes confronting people is uncomfortable and really tough. And it's really hard to confront people and say they've done something wrong and have to go through all that. So it's just easier to kill them or to avoid it or stop being friends, you know?
01:24:11
Speaker
And I guess the idea is is what I often see with these people who are these rugged individuals, I see them almost as like the guy who's like, well, I'll catch fish, but I'm only going to catch them for myself.
01:24:24
Speaker
And I mean, nobody wants to participate in this. And, you know, they they think, oh, well, I don't shouldn't have to get, you know, I don't i didn't have kids, so I shouldn't make my my taxes shouldn't go to kids, who you know, but it would be like that guy saying like, well, I didn't have kids, but the fish I catch should only go to the adults and the adults who have kids should catch their fish for the kids because that's not my problem, you know, and we're kind of in this area of look, so what do we do with these people?
01:24:49
Speaker
You know? And so for me, it's like, okay, we got to have the hard conversations, you know, otherwise I just write them off and say, oh, they're a bunch of magic people, a bunch of crazy people. And I scapegoat them for some reason.
01:25:02
Speaker
and I ignore their humanity. And guess what? They turn around and do the same thing to my humanity. yeah they just We all just stay freaking miserable and keep voting in people that are dividing us constantly rather than saying like, well, what's a way we can work something together that's best for... How can all of Americans make a decision for Americans? I mean, that's one thing that drives me crazy about this current situation we're in is that it's like, you know I remember hearing Donald Trump say like, I'm going to get rid of all the...
01:25:28
Speaker
you know, the, the yeah what did he say, all the um socialists and all the, you know, he started naming all these like, you know, the socialists and anarchists, you know, and I'm like, I know a bunch of socialists and anarchists and communists. And I, you know, and he said, where are those all going to be, you know, and I'm like, he just seems like he's a president for one group.
01:25:51
Speaker
And I guess the other group feels that way too. Another analyst I had, and I'll, I'll end with this, you guys, and then you can just say what you want or you can end the thing. Cause I'm probably going to go, I'm just a little bit of a tangent is I also think that some of this reactionary stuff that we're seeing too,
01:26:07
Speaker
is is a lot of, you know, woke, when I was younger, woke was something very different. Woke was usually something in the African American community that were the people who like knew what was happening.
01:26:19
Speaker
Like they knew what was going on. Like I'm woke, I got it figured out. Like, cause I grew up in a, I mean, lived in Atlanta for a while in a mostly black neighborhood, you know? And so I would always be like the wise black man that you would go to and he would kind of lay it down for you. know, that was kind of the woke thing.
01:26:32
Speaker
And then woke became this thing where it's like all of a sudden you get really angry progressives, like like angry white people who are like, ah, you know, and and yelling at each other. Classic white liberals stealing stuff from other people's cultures. Yeah, and getting easily offended, getting very easily offended and having like chips their shoulders. I'm offended for people. im tom you know and One time I said something to a friend of mine about it and they're like, well, we're just finally angry. We're just angry and we're tired of listening.
01:26:58
Speaker
But it's almost as though they mirrored the conservatives that I grew up with that said, you have to play by our rules. You can't be offensive. We don't want to hear your music. We don't want to hear this.
01:27:09
Speaker
And if you don't, you're out. And so all of a sudden you had cancel culture, which seemed to be very similar to how I grew up in the Christianity with my parents when they fell. It seemed like they got canceled by both cultures, but especially the Christian culture.
01:27:22
Speaker
And so it seemed like we turned around and we overcorrected on the left and we started saying, well, we're not going to tolerate it. So we became the intolerant ones. We became the angry ones. We came the ones that you would demand that we're all represented. We demand you do this and you have to say this and you can't say that.
01:27:35
Speaker
And so now it's like violence, how it's become. I feel like it causes a cycle. I feel like this anger. in this exclusiveness and this scapegoating and this self-righteousness creates this battle between us of like, so now they're going like, well, we're going to get rid of all woke stuff. And who do they do? They find the smallest minority transgender folks. And so now you can't be in the military.
01:27:57
Speaker
Now you're not going to have civil rights. You know, now you can't do any of these things. And now we can call anything woke. We don't like, including Bill. Exactly. But it's also the same way.
01:28:09
Speaker
But think about if we watch... if we watch a ah deconsru some of our deconstruction podcasts and friends and everything they say about conservative Christians, think about some of the things you guys say about evangelicals.
01:28:22
Speaker
You know what mean? like We just do. I know, but we return the favor. I do it too. No, we're fair. We're fair and balanced over here. I know you are fair and balanced. We hate everybody. That's why I wouldn't be here you weren't fair and balanced. Exactly. Like Casey said, we hate everyone. that we We hate everyone equally. yeah And that's...
01:28:40
Speaker
That's probably a better place to be, honestly. Because then you can love them. You just, you know, like, I hate you, but I love you overall as humans. um Me. But you see what I'm saying? Maybe not. But do you see what I'm saying is we kind of get this kind of dance happening. No, for sure. like And so what I'm saying, why I like why I will to see some Irishman's grave in the middle of dairy is because I see someone who said we got to break a cycle.
01:29:08
Speaker
And in order to break that cycle, we all have to make the decision for what's going forward. Now, we're much bigger than Ireland and we're way much bigger than Northern Ireland. So you're right. It's going to be really hard.
01:29:19
Speaker
But we do have people like Reverend Barber. We do have people like us. We do have little guys like me and little guys like that pastor friend of yours that you said who do see this change. I do have my friend Lawrence Richardson. You know, there are people out there who want to see this happen.
01:29:35
Speaker
And so that's why I hold on to that little bit of hope is that maybe we can just go like, all right, you know what? Screw the government right now. Like we know we need it, but these guys are keeping us so divided and screw the guys, the millionaires who own the Instagrams and the Facebooks and all this stuff.
01:29:51
Speaker
You know, we're not gonna let them keep us divided because we need a better world and we need a better world. And if i I can't, you know, Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere is what Dr. King said. And basically saying like, you can't be what you want to be if I'm not able to be what I want to be, or I can't be what I want to be if you aren't able to be what you want to be.
01:30:09
Speaker
And it's just kind of saying like, can we live in a world that's just a little bit better and a little bit human for all of us? I know that sounds like a mad, insane dream, but that's the only thing I really got going for me and until the grave besides raising my kids.
01:30:23
Speaker
You know, like to me, it's like my kids and and and that concept, you know, and seeing like people like Dr. King, who did it and seeing people like Paul Tillich and seeing people like John Hume, who actually saw it come to pass, you know what I mean?
01:30:39
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, kneecapping, killing each other, burning each other's houses down, blowing up. You know, I did the sermon and I talked about, I was in this last week and I was talking about how I was in this vintage store where I got this fine in, in Ireland. I got this fine,
01:30:54
Speaker
very cool Jack, a cool jacket and, um, us military and Belfast
Belfast's Peace Journey as a Modern Inspiration
01:30:59
Speaker
jacket. Um, what's going on, what's going on there guys. We're everywhere. It's a kid conspiracy, but there was this stick with a mirror on it and it looked like a bike, you know, like an old side mirror of like a bicycle. So like, it's like a little metal thing with a round mirror.
01:31:12
Speaker
And I kept looking at it and i didn't know what it was. And I was like, of course, something cool that I don't know what it is. is like, i automatically want it. and I was like, how much is this thing? What is this thing? I got I'm so interested in this weird mirror stick that stretches out.
01:31:25
Speaker
And the guy's like, oh, yeah, that's $150. Like, well, what is it? You know, I think you used to have to look under young girls skirts in the train. That's exactly what else now it was for looking for bombs during the trouble.
01:31:37
Speaker
Oh, under cars. It was looking for bombs and everybody. And I then I also all those people in Belfast every morning had to get up during the troubles and get their marriage. My friend Pete's dad. That's so fucking crazy to think about that being part of your morning routine.
01:31:53
Speaker
so he drove You pull your coffee and then you look for car bombs. Nuts. Yeah, he delivered candy. And for 30 years, he got up every morning, got the little thing out. You know, most of us don't you know scrape our windows.
01:32:05
Speaker
And you go under and you look under your car to make sure there's not a bomb under your car because he drives a sweet truck making deliveries and wants to make sure that they don't want to blow it up in a certain part of the neighborhood because he was... But then they are, people are doing on their normal cars every day for 30 years.
01:32:20
Speaker
Look at, and they lived with that. That's trauma. That embeds deep in your soul. It got so normalized that when I was talking to Pete's mom, Carol, she was talking about how,
01:32:31
Speaker
you know They would be at a grocery store and all a sudden the announcement would everybody, we've had a bomb threat for the grocery store. you know and And so she said, like okay, well, I would just scoop the kids up. She had three kids. Scoop the kids up, go out, and then go to the next gro go to another grocery store. The Catholic grocery store, not the Protestant grocery store.
01:32:49
Speaker
Yeah. You know what I mean? maybe Or maybe you were in a Protestant. knowing Well, the Protestants are getting blown up today. So let's go over to the Catholic grocery store because they're the ones good doing the bombs today. So they're not going to blow up their own store. You know what i'm saying? So it's like they live with that every day, you know? And so, you know, we live in this madness every day too. And, and,
01:33:07
Speaker
and it took living in that kind of insanity for those people to say, we're tired. Maybe we'll listen to John Hume. Who's not the most attractive man. He doesn't get the great speeches. Every quote he has is like a mixture of the same quote he's ever given.
01:33:19
Speaker
ah And, You know, but this guy seems to think that Catholics and Protestants can make the decision together. You know, he seems to think and they did. And nobody won. No part. They have like 50 parties there.
01:33:31
Speaker
You know, no other parties won. Everybody had to make a compromise. I'll take that. and I'll take that over to for Fox. Yes, when i was office i had the best time. They have the greatest artists. They have the greatest food.
01:33:43
Speaker
They have the greatest people. And they've all come out of this dark hell. Now, are there still remnants of that? Are there still people who feel hurt? but Yeah, definitely. There's still like freaking murals with guys with machine guns and things like that. And there's still kind of Catholic Protestant areas, but the walls are are down, you know.
01:33:58
Speaker
But there are these amazing, beautiful people. And I'm like, so for me, every time I go there, it shows me like this is possible. This is possible. yeah This can happen. The Good Friday Agreement can happen.
01:34:10
Speaker
um but it takes looking for bombs under your cars for 30 years it gets tired of seeing your friends blown up it gets tired of seeing you know military checks everywhere you go you know that's why i love belfast punk rock is because the punk rockers just decided to have punk rock shows and do punk rock things and and just decided to kind of ignore the troubles as much as they could i remember there's this one scene in the good vibrations which is about um The troubles, the the the the the ah British police pull the car, the British army pull the car over and go, okay, you know, are you Protestants or Catholics? And the guy goes, I don't know. Hey, are you guys Protestants or Catholics?
01:34:50
Speaker
He's like, I've never asked them, you know, because they just had to live their life so much that they even ignored it And that's what happens often. So, you know, I'm Protestant. Oh, I'm like, oh, you're a Catholic, you bastard. You know, and they're all like having funny things. But the fact is, is like, eventually we get tired of this going over and over again. and what I hope we'll get tired of is all this scapegoating, all this division.
01:35:12
Speaker
and and And just, you know we're all, I don't know. I just hope we're, I think it's possible to to do something nice and to find unity through diversity. Yeah, I think, ah I don't know. I'm kind of of the,
01:35:24
Speaker
Same opinion. Dan Carlin, there's been a couple of series where he's talked about the fact that like, you know, you dial up the pressure and the misery enough and change. That's when change happens.
Comfort and Social Change
01:35:36
Speaker
And I think that's like the biggest impediment to change here is that things just aren't bad enough yet. You know, relatively speaking, like it's people aren't doing well, but they're doing good enough to ignore things.
01:35:52
Speaker
their situation to some extent. You know what i mean? Yeah. Like, and I mean, ignore it in a way of like, nobody's losing their minds yet It's a cost benefit analysis for everyone. Like I'm struggling and I'm frustrated, but I know making anything, and doing anything drastic, like joining a revolution would ruin my family. You know, like but distraction comes. So what am I doing? now I'm still just going to show up and do the thing that I got to do to get by until that doesn't work anymore.
01:36:23
Speaker
Yeah, like I didn't go march on Washington because I've got two kids, and so I wanted to go watch March on Washington with Reverend Barber, but I was like, I got two kids. I can't afford a plane ticket, blah, blah, blah, you know.
01:36:34
Speaker
Dude, I was really hoping for liberal January 6th. I kind of – I thought that would have been hilarious. Yeah. I know. Instead, we got a bunch of people bragging about how quiet it was. I'm like, that's not the brag you think it is, dude. If you think democracy is over, you should be going ham right now.
01:36:53
Speaker
I mean, I'm seeing a lot of people protesting in small areas in their cities, and it seems like it's kind of a mixed group. I mean, it seems like it's mostly liberals, but I feel like there's conservatives scattered in – and You know, that gives me a little bit of hope.
01:37:09
Speaker
um i yeah I just I just I just I see these like politicians like leave these town hall meetings early. I've seen three of them where the politicians left and theyre you're the most rude people I've ever seen.
01:37:20
Speaker
You know, I just got up and walked out or canceled their events completely, which means they're extremely uncomfortable. And, um, which is good. They should be uncomfortable. <unk> They're making really dumb dumb they're really doing really dumb stuff. They're taking rights away from people that are settled and it's really dumb and, um, really horrific and sad.
01:37:40
Speaker
Um, and so hopefully there'll be some change there. Hopefully we can be less divided and we can stop scapegoating each other and stop treating, like stop being so freaking loyal to these parties and find a way to be like, let's be loyal to just us, to humanity.
01:37:53
Speaker
you know? Well, let's, let's ah to close out, let's do a quick transition to what it means to be loyal to
Tammy Faye on Broadway: A Personal Journey
01:38:00
Speaker
humanity. And real quick, I would love to hear you did. You worked on this Broadway play. I believe you were part of working on the Broadway play, right? With well, they had me come see it. And then they had me talk to the, to the, to the cast a little bit. And I think they took couple of my, my suggestions. They, I don't think they could say they did.
01:38:21
Speaker
But I think there were a few there when I saw the finished, the second project, because I saw it the first time in London and then the second time I saw it in New York. Okay. Yeah. So what was that like? I mean, that must have been so cool. I know. I mean, you got to meet Elton John. and You got to...
01:38:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so I first saw it in London and Elton John wasn't there, but I got to talk to him on the phone for a second, like a video call. And it was like talking to your dad because he held it up here. doesn cur race It all day you know it was still Elton John, you know, so I'm like talking to Elton John's toupee, but it was still pretty awesome.
01:38:55
Speaker
um And then Jake Shears from the Scissor Sisters was like my host while I was in London. And that guy's just total like down to earth, totally cool guy.
01:39:06
Speaker
So then I went out, then they had me come out for the rehearsal and to do some press during the rehearsal. So I didn't realize that I was going to sit through a whole rehearsal. I thought they were goingnna do like one song from the play. And then it's called Tammy Faye on Broadway. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:19
Speaker
And so I was like, okay, well, yeah. I'll just sit through this rehearsal, you know? And then it was the whole play. And it's very hard to see your whole life done in a musical form. Yeah.
01:39:30
Speaker
You know, to like see somebody like the weirdest moments of your life and then people break out into song, you know? I mean, it's like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. This is like some sort of radical therapy.
01:39:41
Speaker
And not very many of us get it. I really highly recommend it. If you can spend like $5 million dollars to get a a Broadway play made of your life. Oh, healing, healing stuff. It's like that one sitcom episode that so many did where they like, it's like the episode of Scrubs where they did a musical. and You're like, wow, that was really different.
01:39:58
Speaker
So this is interesting. You know, you see this and and it's, you know, and it's top notch because it's Elton John's producing this thing. You've got all these top notch people. It's really great. And I got to talk to this the crew after that and to the whole, yeah everybody. I mean, I cried and talked to them. I did some media for them. And then they had me come back for the premiere. Now the premiere was a trip because, um,
01:40:22
Speaker
that's all the stars came out for that. You know, like, um you know, I met Michael Stipes from REM. Like I saw him walk the blue, the red carpet.
01:40:32
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh, that's Michael Stipes. So when I went into the theater, I don't really ever seek anybody out. Like i always like let people be, but Michael Stipes and REM had such a huge impact on my life, especially like in 1991 when my dad was in prison and I was skipping school and I was listening to that out of time album, like over and over again.
01:40:51
Speaker
all the time. And then he told me a story. I went up and found him and I introduced myself and he told me a story. He said, you know, we recorded the first two, just move your heads every now and then so I know you're not frozen. Guys, um thanks.
01:41:04
Speaker
So there was, but he recorded the first two albums. The first two albums were recorded in the same recording studio that my mom recorded her music on. And he said him and my mom preferred this particular microphone. And he's like, so always tell people recorded our first two albums on the Tammy Faye microphone.
01:41:19
Speaker
And that was just like gold for me. That's so cool. I was like, wow. And I was like, dude, I used to skip school and listen to your album. And it just but got me through a lot of stuff. And then when Everybody Hurt came out, I was going through this and blah, blah, blah. And I said, I just want to say thank you. And I got a picture with him. It's on my Instagram. It's pinned on the top of my Instagram because it was so cool.
01:41:37
Speaker
um Elton John. met Elton John the last time for a few minutes. And he's he's having a hard time with his vision. So he had to like grab like grab me by my arms and pull me close. And he's like, how did it was? that What did you think?
01:41:50
Speaker
You know, did we do your mom right? you know, all this stuff And then so the second time we we were on the red carpet and he was like, kiss him on the cheek. He kissed me. And, you know, his husband, but David, was there and they're doing great work with the Elton John's AIDS Foundation.
01:42:03
Speaker
Really cool stuff. But, you know, like they were just it was surreal, man. It was surreal to see that. That's awesome. But the weird thing was, is that the New York press could not really handle something being positive done about my family.
01:42:16
Speaker
So the reviews and stuff, they just didn't like the fact that it gave my parents a fair shake. And I think if my dad and my mom deserve a fair shake, it's definitely that time in their life. You know, it was very...
01:42:26
Speaker
There are a lot of nuances there. My dad wasn't ah as political as he he wasn't conservative political guy back then. You know, I mean, he had been on Air Force One with with Democrats and Republicans. You know, he he was you know, they just that wasn't what they really their thing back then.
01:42:43
Speaker
and um And so it was really cool, but it was really wild to see like even probably these people who are in the press weren't even alive when it happened, but they still had to kind of toe this line that the story that they've told over the years compared to the toret story that Elton John and them were telling. And Elton John them, they don't have any reason to not say the truth. you know what Right, of course.
01:43:01
Speaker
You know, I mean, there's stuff about Jessica Hahn in there. There's stuff about that. There's stuff about like the finances and all all that stuff's also in the play, but it was also shows you a different part of who my parents were. And it was quite amazing.
01:43:14
Speaker
um My dad called me on my birthday this year. I hadn't talked to him in a while. He called me on my birthday. And, you know, he's had a few strokes. And, but we talked a little bit. And he was like, you know, I'm just afraid the story's never going to get out there. And I said, Dad, you know i went and saw the Elton John play, you know and he's like, yeah. And he's like, but they'll never get the thing right. And I'm like, well, they told the story about like how Jerry Falwell tricked you to write that list out. And,
01:43:35
Speaker
how they did all this stuff. And he's like, really? He's like, I never thought, because I thought everybody forgot that or would never talk about that again. Like, well, no, you know, they, they saw who you guys were. They, you know, when you guys, you know, had Steve on the, on the show, Steve, who had had AIDS, I mean that really changed things for a lot of people that really opened up the doors for a lot of people and in their lives and gave a lot of people hope. And, and um he was, he was really surprised by that. And I was really happy that he was surprised about that. Yeah.
01:44:04
Speaker
And I got, you know, I'm still friends with some of the cast members. And Michael, who played Jerry Falwell, we've become really good friends. And, you know, DM each other all the time. And and he's a really great guy. and The whole cast was, the play got ended earlier than they wanted to.
01:44:25
Speaker
But the whole cast would kind of really, was heartbroken about It was really cool to see, though, because they had felt like, wow, we really needed this play during this time.
01:44:36
Speaker
And it's unfortunate that we weren't able to have this play during, you know, during this new administration coming in because it kind of battles against that and kind of shows something, a different opinion, and a different option, and a different way of doing things.
01:44:48
Speaker
And, were some conservative people, um, who from our my past who had seen it and they're like, Oh, it's too bad. They weren't able to tell the truth. And I was like, they told the truth. I'm like, you guys abandoned us back then. I mean, one guy I was really hard on. i was like, man, and you guys disappeared. i mean, I never heard from any of you ever again. This is the my first time I'm hearing from you just because you saw Broadway play.
01:45:09
Speaker
um now it's been Oh, you went to Broadway. pray That's the gayest thing you could have done. mr yeah conservative man and But, you know, so it was, it was, it was, it was surreal. There was an after party and i mean it was, I mean, the whole thing was really surreal. and that's awesome great I was grateful for that moment. It felt very healing, you know? And again, here you see like redemption coming from,
01:45:33
Speaker
You know artists you see redemption coming from you know LGBTQ people, you know and and artists and and and the last place you would think it and and once again, it's like oh They're doing the restoration the church they're doing the restoration the church can't do They're doing they're doing um unconditional restoration in a way and Unconditional truth-telling and they're the ones who like we're gonna set the record straight which is so wild because they have nothing to gain from it and it makes it that more beautiful. you know and
01:46:05
Speaker
you know With my dad's thing, is like sometimes i people go, oh, your dad did this and he says this and I can't believe he does this. you know and and I asked one time, this guy was really going in hard on my dad and I understand why. My dad says some crazy stuff, um but he's sick and not really doing TV anymore.
01:46:23
Speaker
But i said um I said, yeah, but who was there when my dad had nothing? I said, Franklin Graham gave my dad a house to live in. you know yeah The Lutheran church could have done that.
01:46:34
Speaker
you know The you know Unitarian Universalist church could have done that. and But none of those people came around. i'm like, no one was there. You know, so the conservative evangelicals came in and picked him up and helped him nurse his wounds and made him feel like he belonged again. You know, so you wonder why he went down that. It's like, we're not doing our job of restoring. We only restore our own.
01:46:53
Speaker
You know, we yeah we have this this small vision of like, well, I can't do this. All of you pastors can go visit anybody in prison almost any time of the day, anytime you want. You can go on. You don't even have to be on the list.
01:47:05
Speaker
You know, I've done a lot of prison visits in my life. Those people didn't show up. You know, they were just like, oh well, those people are trash. We'll just throw them away. And that's what happens when we throw people away.
01:47:16
Speaker
You know, that's what, yeah. they yeah They'll, they'll sink into whichever group accepts them and then it only exacerbates the problems. I mean, it's like, it's like the kids who I saw, like the kids who I saw that were like Nazi skinheads in high school, they were loners. They freaked out. They felt alone. And this weird group of Nazis go, Oh, come in.
01:47:35
Speaker
We love you. And used to sit down with those guys and say like, why do you, how do you hate people based on the color of their skin or based on like this or that, you know, and I, I, I was always been one for weird, tough conversations. Even back in high school, I was just always like curious about why people thought the way they did.
01:47:50
Speaker
um You know, but yeah, a lot of times I would realize like these are people who just never felt like they fit in anywhere. And finally someone accepted them and made them feel like they belong. And people will say, well, you know, that's, you know, they should have known better. And I'm like, it's really easy to say that when you don't feel like. ah Yeah, that is easy to radicalize.
01:48:09
Speaker
That's really at the core of like all of that stuff is that I think it's, I think it's easy because of like the conversations that people are having and the things that they say and they post and stuff like that.
01:48:21
Speaker
It's, it's easy to think that they belong to these groups or these like, you know, um, parties, whatever, because of conviction. But it's most of the time, it's a lot more to do with identity than it is like conviction about like the, the, you know, here's the 10 principles of, you know, being an info wars, you know, pre millennialist or whatever.
01:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, just it's like, oh, well, here's this is my my community and my people. you know And if we could say like, well, you know hey, this is why when you do this to transgender people and do that, you're killing a whole community. I mean, how would you feel? Well, maybe your community's next. You just don't see it. you know And that's that's how I try to think and and and communicate with these folks as well, too. It's like, you know you know, it's tough.
01:49:07
Speaker
and And it's funny because I remember not liking Franklin Graham almost right away. as a kid, and I wasn't even really that deep into religion. I still thought God hated me, but there was just some red flags I had about him. And I would try to say to my dad, and my dad would be like, yeah, but son, the car that you drove, you know, to go do this or the things they they, they're, letting us use. You got to go see your friends in Charlotte because you know, Frank and Graham gave ah's a car to use, you know, we have a house to stay in. I'm out of prison. I have a house to go into after my halfway house, you know, you know, we have food on the tables that these people are getting, are helping us that, you know, and, and so, mean, always watch people kind of help my dad, but they always did it with kid gloves. Cause I, you could tell they were afraid to get dirty, but me but they were doing it, you know?
01:49:51
Speaker
And, um, So for me, it's it's it's so complicated and it's there's so many nuances to it. I think that's like what's important about a lot of what we talked about today is just like the amount of nuance there is when all sides have kind of shifted into this black and white thing.
01:50:09
Speaker
I mean, we've just, it's like neo-fundamentalism that we're experiencing on all sides. That is, ah it's not getting us anywhere. It's getting us further from the goal that we probably all have. And it sucks. It fucking sucks. but It really does.
01:50:25
Speaker
and We got to wrap up. Jay, thanks so much for joining us, man. This was a ton of fun. Always appreciate the, uh, the back and forths that we have online. I appreciate you just jumping on here, uh, from, uh, just a quick little message, you know?
01:50:43
Speaker
Yeah. I'm glad we got to do it I like, i like this way more than our last conversation. I think our last conversation was just kind of about just little things that were differences, but this is about big stuff that we need to be thinking about, you really yeah thinking about.
01:50:56
Speaker
And, uh, I don't have a corner on it, but at least we're thinking about it and talking about it. And hopefully folks who are listening will think about it and talk about it and like check out maybe that guy like Gary economics or fricking look up John Hume or, you know, that kind of stuff too.
01:51:09
Speaker
And maybe find a little bit of the hope that I found in, in a few different odd places, you know? Absolutely, man. Thanks guys. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for listening.
01:51:19
Speaker
We will see next