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Ep. 236. – “Christian Company” or “Christians in a Company?” w/ Success Coach Mitch Matthews
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This week Casey is joined by keynote speaker, success coach, best-selling author, and host of the Dream Think Do Podcast, Mitch Matthews! Mitch works with a wide variety of clients with the goal of “helping them remember who they are, what they’re capable of, and what’s possible when you build something on purpose.” We discuss his early life in church, the life-altering brush with tragedy that prompted him to reevaluate his faith, and what being a Christian in the workplace should look like. It was a fun conversation and I really appreciate Mitch’s willingness to guest on our show, a risk that many people who are still in that world aren’t willing to take. To learn more about Mitch’s work and for links to his various social media, visit www.mitchmatthews.com, and stream Dream Think Do wherever you listen to podcasts!
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Transcript
Introduction and Challenges in Business
00:00:00
Speaker
And so I ordered 50,000 of them. And what was interesting was the funding for that as a struggle, the manufacturing for that was a struggle. The sales of those were a struggle.
00:00:12
Speaker
And I still was kind of pissed at God when I look back at It's like, oh yeah, no, that was totally me. um But I will say that God still came through and and like I had to completely own that I had run with it. It was kind of my idea.
00:00:30
Speaker
God still came through in some really creative ways to be able to, you know, show off and help us to solve the situation. But I know, I know I brought problems on because I was just excited and started to run, run out ahead of what I think God was calling me to. This wasn't back in the pharma days, was it?
00:00:50
Speaker
No, this, this is, you know, if your product idea was like, hydro, hydrocodone fun dip or something. Yeah, no, I never, I never went that route.
Guest Introduction: Mitch Matthews
00:01:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Casey and Sam is, ah he's he's fiddling with his dial-up and he can't make it. So he will not be joining us, but we are joined by a by Mitch Matthews.
00:01:34
Speaker
So welcome, Mitch. Thank you. I appreciate it, Casey. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. I feel bad. Like when I hear dial-up, I always hear that, you know, in my head. So... Yeah. I hope it works out for him.
00:01:48
Speaker
Terrible. know, what's funny is like the thing that people don't talk, people always talk about like how, how slow dial up was to connect to. Nobody talks about how slow things were to print. Right.
00:01:59
Speaker
ah a dot mar A dot matrix printer and all of that. Absolutely. I'm with you. Oh, all of it. It's it's incredible what complain about now. yeah And it's it it was like a five minute process. It was like, it was 30 seconds of silence. And then one, one cross of the the little printer thing. right That's exactly right. Yeah. You'd start to, you know, print a report and you'd leave, go get a cup of coffee and come back and go do something else and come back.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. It's it We are very spoiled now. There is no doubt. Yeah. Map quest directions to Mervyn's. Circuit City. I love it. Absolutely.
Mitch Matthews' Background and Career
00:02:41
Speaker
So um we connected through through your assistant who you know was talking about kind of your your background. And I guess it sounds like you got to you got a few irons in the fire. I have a short attention span, Casey. There's no doubt. So yeah.
00:03:00
Speaker
So give us a rundown on like what what what all do you what's on your business card. Sure. Yeah. Well, my business card about, you know, seven inches long, i guess, but it's, uh, no, if you boil it down, we have a training company.
00:03:13
Speaker
So, uh, and we, I have a podcast, um, and that podcast is called dream, think, do. And, uh, My whole goal is to help people to dream bigger, think better and do more of what they were put on the planet to do And so we have a training company that also backs that up. So I do a lot of one-on-one coaching and ah speaking to organizations like NASA and United Airlines and ah leaders from Nike and Disney and ah Principal Financial and those types of things. So I love that kind of work. And then we have a whole online training component to what we do as well.
00:03:49
Speaker
Okay. Nice. Yeah, that is a few things.
Medieval Weapons and History Discussion
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's a couple things, right? Yeah, but, you know, short attention span, that works well. Okay, so we should start with an icebreaker question.
00:04:01
Speaker
um Medieval Battlefield, what is your weapon of choice? Oh, man. Well, i'm I'm a nerd, Casey. So I grew up in Iowa, but I liked history. And so I decided early on, for whatever reason, I don't even know what got in me, but I thought, you know, as we were learning about American history, I i couldn't help but think, how do they teach this stuff in England?
00:04:29
Speaker
And so after I graduated from high school, I went and lived in a year. I lived in England for a year and I took English or excuse me, I took American history in England. So their take on the revolution, totally different than ours.
00:04:43
Speaker
um And then I also took a medieval history class. fascinating, fricking fascinating. So like, I, I, I kind of understand a little bit more than maybe some people kind of the, the merits of a Lance cause it keeps your distance, but really sucks. And up close the broad sword, which is great, but it also wears you out pretty quickly.
00:05:06
Speaker
mace also awesome. Awesome at keeping people's distance, really collaborating somebody from about a, you know, four to six foot range. Um, but boy, what, if they get in tight, you're screwed. So I have to say broad sword and knife combo is probably the winner for me.
00:05:23
Speaker
How about you? I'm a, I'm a big net and a Trident guy. I'll be the first to die. I love it, man. Come on. They had a little Anchorman in there too, right? like yeah Yeah. I forgot about that.
00:05:38
Speaker
a Brick. Come on. I love that. Yeah. yeah that That's a classic, man. I love it. I love it. Yeah, there I will say that in in Abingdon, England and Sheffield, England, their medieval reenactment societies are a whole different level than what we had here in Iowa. I can tell you like they like they are generationally connected to medieval history. So I love it.
00:06:06
Speaker
Boy, i would love to see that crowd. That's got to be. It is fascinating. Like there are people with generation old chain mail. Like, you know, you got your newbies who maybe got something off of Amazon and then you've got some that are like a hundred years old. Like you're like, okay, what was your uncle doing in a medieval reenactment in the early 1900s. What does that even look like? Right. But it's it. The history is incredible. But I mean, hey, geeks abound everywhere.
00:06:38
Speaker
And, um you know, that gives me hope.
Historical Figures and Perspectives
00:06:40
Speaker
I feel like I feel like a good 70 percent of Civil War reenactors would be ruled out if they only made the uniforms in like historic sizes. That's it.
00:06:51
Speaker
That's true. There's no doubt. We used to live in Montana. And, you know, if you go to some of the well, actually, like you can go to where General George Custer died, right? Like that actual battlefield.
00:07:04
Speaker
And they have a uniform of his. And you're like, was he four foot six? Like what? Like he was tiny. So yeah, you're exactly right. Like, uh, it's amazing. i think what, what, you know, happy meals have done for us. Like, it's just, you know, if, if we compared ourselves, uh, to folks in the civil war, we would look like giants. There's no doubt.
00:07:26
Speaker
Well,
Mitch's Upbringing and Spiritual Influences
00:07:27
Speaker
Custer, he's a, he's a perfect example of the, the, the folly of overvaluing your worth. There's, there is no doubt. Colossal, colossal volumes written on. Yes, absolutely.
00:07:42
Speaker
Overestimating and and truly believing your own press. There's no doubt. Like, that yeah, it's amazing. It's very funny to watch. Like, i remember when I was a kid, I was really into Westerns for a while. Yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
And we had the Western channel as a part of our cable package. And it played every Western that no one ever paid to see. ah There was like 3000 different Westerns that should have just been shoved in the garbage. You can watch on at noon on Tuesdays. Right. Yeah. Like who is, who are these people? and what is this? Yes, absolutely. But I'm sure there was some good stuff in there.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think there was a few, but I remember, like, they had, like, a like a ah a marathon of Custer movies, like, Custer-specific movies. Oh, jeez. But, they're yeah I mean, they're not, like, mainstream. They're old, crappy B-movies, you know, from Hollywood, and i was kind of, like, astounded at how many of them really, pain like, just went to great pains to talk about, like, how cool Custer was.
00:08:42
Speaker
Right. Like... I don't, I don't know. Yeah. he I mean, he he definitely had a great press agent. There's no doubt about it. And like the, you know, the, the swagger and the sway that he had within the government um to be able to get the backing that he got is it's impressive, but also colossally sad, right? Like it's just incredible. So yeah.
00:09:05
Speaker
Who do who do you cast to play Custer in a movie like nowadays in today's day and age? Uh, William H Macy, I think would do, an incredible job of probably a more accurate. Cause you do think like he had to muster the troops. Like there had to be some swagger in there, but you also see, like, I'm betting good money that behind closed doors, he was a scared little kid.
00:09:32
Speaker
And I think, I think William H Macy could pull that off. that's not a bad choice. Right? Yeah. I mean, i to see it with like the goldie golden locks kind of thing happening to you. I think I'd pay to see that alone. So, yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker
So, okay. ah We usually, uh, start off by talking a little bit about background and stuff. And I'm curious, cause I was listening to an interview you did with a different podcast today.
00:09:58
Speaker
And, uh, you were talking about growing up in Iowa and working yeah at the bike shop and stuff. yeah What is your, like, church background? It's a great, great question. So I grew up in a really nice church in a small town in Iowa.
00:10:13
Speaker
um Wonderful, wonderful people, great community, um really focused on Jesus being a nice guy. and And we really tried to do a lot of good things in the community.
00:10:27
Speaker
But we didn't spend a lot of time in the Bible. And, um you know, I didn't know that was right or wrong. ah But my brother was in a Christian rock band. You'll appreciate
Spiritual Journey and Power of Prayer
00:10:38
Speaker
that, Casey. Like a Christian rock band.
00:10:40
Speaker
And that most of the members of that band went to a different church. And my church was a wonderful church, but we didn't have many kids. So like I was the only kid in my grade.
00:10:52
Speaker
I there was a gal who was, I think, one hundred and forty seven named Opal Schneider. ah She was wonderful, but literally like she had to be 100 at least. um and Now I look back, I just turned 55 this year. She was probably 55 now that I think about it.
00:11:07
Speaker
But like I grew up and it was me and Opal Schneider. Like my I was the only person in my class and Opal Schneider would get out the flannel graphs and she would walk me through some of the big stories. But that's pretty much all that we did.
00:11:18
Speaker
But this other church had a youth pastor um who was an interesting guy. He was probably in his 50s or 60s at the time. But he saw me hanging out. I was probably schlepping stuff for the band.
00:11:32
Speaker
And he's like, hey, come to my office at four o'clock on Wednesday. And I didn't know to say no. I'm like, okay, whatever this, uh, you know, this church seemed to pretty cool, all that stuff.
00:11:43
Speaker
And I get to his office at four o'clock on Wednesday. And I realized he has ah a picture, a photograph of, and I don't know if you'll know this, but, uh, Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, maybe your Western channel had some Roy Rogers and Dale Evans movies. I don't know, but he used to be a really big,
00:12:01
Speaker
TV star that was a cowboy and it was Stan Wearson. That was the name of this youth pastor and Roy Rogers and Dale Evans. And I'm like, I'm in like, you can say whatever you want. Like, uh, what do we want to talk about?
00:12:14
Speaker
And he basically was like, Hey, I want to talk to you about the Bible. I want to talk about life. Just keep coming to my office at four o'clock on Wednesdays. And was just started to do it, rode my bike up there and we would just talk about life, but then he would teach me about the Bible. And to this day, i don't entirely know why he looked out for me. And, and, you know, I went to a different church down the street. He didn't really know my family all that much.
00:12:39
Speaker
But I know that that planted seeds for my faith and where it is today. ah it helped me to be more biblically based and understand some of the mystery of the Bible and some of the mystery of our relationship with God and Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
00:12:55
Speaker
And, and so I grew up in that, went to summer camps. I had some great experiences there. And then honestly, about for about 10 years, um, I just really didn't sp spend much time in the church or in the Bible.
00:13:08
Speaker
Um, my wife and I met at college wound up moving to Montana and We both grew up in Iowa, so we wanted to live in the mountains. And we thought, hey, if we don't do it upon graduation, we'll probably never do it. You know, we'll settle down here and never get out. So we decided to move to Montana. So about five, six of those years, we're like, hey, we're going to church in the mountains. You know, like that's that's church, right? Like, yeah let's get up. The higher we can get, the better.
00:13:32
Speaker
And so that's that's what we did for almost a decade. And then ah my wife, I mean, it's an interesting story. It's a powerful story. it's It's one of the things that changed our lives.
00:13:45
Speaker
ah But my wife was diagnosed with cancer. And um I can tell you, I i wasn't real versed on prayer. um but we started to lean into prayer big time and God pulled off six miracles in one day that like, you know, you might be able to dismiss it as circumstance, but it's really hard, uh, to, to dismiss this story, you know, of six miracles in one day. And, and it, uh, healed my wife of cancer and, um, changed our lives. And so after that,
00:14:18
Speaker
Uh, that really inspired me to say, okay, I think this God is real. haven't been talking with him much lately, but, um, I think I need to, to find out more. And so that just, you know, I think God, I always want to be really clear. I don't believe that God gave my wife cancer to draw us close to him.
00:14:38
Speaker
but I do believe that he can redeem any situation and work through any situation to help us get to know him better. And I think that's exactly what he did. And so,
Church Engagement and Faith Exploration
00:14:48
Speaker
you know, after that, we just started to dig into what prayer was and what it was to walk with God. And I don't know about you, but like,
00:14:56
Speaker
I'm not big on religion, um but I want a freaking vibrant, amazing life. Like it says, you know, Jesus said, I came so that you could have life and have it abundantly. And if you dig into that word, life is Zoe, which is the highest blessedness of a creature.
00:15:15
Speaker
to say, says have life and have it to the fullest, The fullest word is parosis, which is to have it exceedingly abundantly beyond what we could hope, dream, or imagine.
00:15:26
Speaker
And when I look at a lot of people in a lot of churches, like it seems like they're not getting that experience and that sucks. And I want that for people. Like I'm not judging anybody, but it's like, man, if you could have a vibrant, amazing relationship with God, like why not?
00:15:42
Speaker
So that's me. Hmm. Interesting. How about that? Yeah. So what yeah see you see, like the, the church that you went to as a kid was like not real steeped in the Bible. What? Yeah.
00:15:56
Speaker
So what exactly is missing in that situation that you found at the other place? Like, but So what's interesting about that is, uh, I realized that Stan Wearson, that youth pastor at that other church, I think he was discipling kind of like Jesus meant to have happened. Like, I don't think meeting in churches and having, you know, weekly worship, like that's a good and healthy thing. I think,
00:16:23
Speaker
being in a community and eating and breaking bread and going and serving the community. Like those are all really good things and not, but, but, and what Stan Wearson was doing was he was discipling like Jesus discipled his disciples, right? Like to sit down and, uh, you know, Stan rarely told me stuff, Stan, like Jesus, I didn't know that's what he was doing, but like Jesus, he, he would often ask me questions.
00:16:51
Speaker
And instead of just telling me straight up, like, hey, you know, this is what you should think. He'd be like, hey, what do you think about this? Or we would read a passage in the Bible, some of the hard ones. And he'd be like, well, what do you think about that?
00:17:04
Speaker
And instead of telling me what to think, he got me to voice And begin to like, be able to talk through what I actually thought. And then you know, 13, 14, 15, 16, I didn't know, but it did help me to have a safe place to be able to talk through that. And I think that that's a big part of it. I think we often think.
00:17:23
Speaker
In a church setting that the tell model is what works and the tell model looks efficient. Like the tell model is what we often get in sermons on a Sunday morning or a Saturday night where a pastor...
00:17:38
Speaker
and you know, depending on how gifted they are in teaching, they will tell you. Right. um But I think that a lot of times what, what Jesus did was he would tell a little bit, but then he would ask too.
00:17:51
Speaker
And I think that that's a really powerful thing because when you ask, you have to hold people as capable. I think some of that, it seems to me some of that stems from there. i It's not just,
00:18:05
Speaker
in the church or church people or Christians or whatever. But I know like in my church, there was a real like preoccupation with being correct. Yeah. You had to be right.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. And it was like, it was important that you have an answer for all these different things. And they would cite something out of Timothy or whatever is be ready to give a account or whatever. And, and that was taken to mean that like, you need to have your doctrinal points like down packed.
00:18:31
Speaker
And I think that was always like my relationship to Christianity as a kid was like, memorize the right way to think about all these different things.
Parallels Between Sales and Faith
00:18:40
Speaker
And later on, only, you know, as a as a young man, like figured out that that didn't really mean a whole lot to me anymore, you know.
00:18:50
Speaker
That was an act of memorization, right? Like, and hopefully some of it got stuck, but like, I don't know about you, but like, I grew up selling bikes in my small town and I went to a selling school, uh, early on, like at 14, I went to a Schwinn selling school. It was me and a bunch of bike shop owners and I loved it. Like I loved selling stuff.
00:19:10
Speaker
But then when I got older, I got into pharmaceutical sales and it was really interesting because i worked for one company where we really had the ability to be creative with how we talked about stuff. So they would teach us what we needed to know, but they let us figure out how we wanted to talk about it.
00:19:30
Speaker
Versus I went and switched to another pharmaceutical company And they taught us like robots, like we had to teach ah and and we we had to sell, I should say, from a script. Right. They were really worried about the FDA. They were really worried about able to break anybody. Anybody. Guys, this is not the way to move opiates.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, absolutely. So what what's funny is, is that, you know, with the first company, I was able to have these great, robust, awesome conversations and I built great, amazing, rich conversations, like relationships with my doctors and their offices and things.
00:20:07
Speaker
When I had to work from a script, it always felt like I was a robot. It never felt personal. It never allowed us to truly connect and i could never build relationships. And I do think, I think you're exactly right. I think sometimes, oftentimes it, it what, no matter what faith you're talking about,
00:20:26
Speaker
If someone is focused on being right, you can't help but basically be wrote like, be it you know, like, Hey, you, yeah if somebody asks you this, be ready to be ready to say this.
00:20:38
Speaker
If somebody asks you this, be ready to combat with this. And it's like, that's not relationship. So, you know, to me, it's one of those where I want to learn stuff. Um, You know, like, all right, Lord, what do you say?
00:20:50
Speaker
You know, I don't, I don't want to learn stuff to win an argument. Not at all. Like I, I honestly, I like, I think you're right. And, and, you know, first sympathy, it does say, be ready to talk about what you believe, but it's like, I don't think that word is combative.
00:21:05
Speaker
Like, it's like, Hey, have a relationship first, then have the conversation. Yeah. Agreed. Cause I don't know, like, like memorizing a script to win an argument sucks.
00:21:17
Speaker
Right. Like, I mean, I know that ah that's, that's satisfying for some people, but it's boring as hell and there's no power in it. Well, sales is the same, you know, I mean, I've done a lot of sales training with people and, and,
00:21:32
Speaker
you You could pick them out of the group, the guys who are just really trying to like memorize all the right answers for everything. Yeah. And it's like until you like you can have all the information in the world, but you're going to have to like personalize this yeah to the person that you're talking to or else it doesn't nobody.
00:21:49
Speaker
cares. I don't know you. What do you believe? What you say doesn't mean a whole lot to me. And you're a sales guy. You're not a scientist. So like what difference does it make? I used to, I went, yeah like i said, I went to school in England a couple of different times and their model was really interesting in that in, in most cases, especially as you got, you know, older or went to university, you basically, there would be a lecture,
Exploring Personal Beliefs and Theology
00:22:15
Speaker
which would be at the beginning of the week. And you might have a hundred students in the classroom.
00:22:20
Speaker
But then you would often have a tutorial, which was you, three or four other students and your professor. And in the in the tutorial, like it would be that tell method, right? Like the the the professor would tell you what this person thought or what this belief is, or, you know, this is what, you know, history says, or this is what this algorithm is, all those kinds of things.
00:22:44
Speaker
But you when you got into tutorial, the professor would say, okay, now what do you believe? Like Casey, we talked about what this author said. What do you believe?
00:22:55
Speaker
And it was exhilarating and horrifying all at the same time. Cause like you had to actually decide like either like, what do you believe? Or what do you not believe? And then to make a case for that, not as a proof that you know something.
00:23:11
Speaker
It's like, what do you believe? And I found it really satisfying. It was exhilarating and horrifying because boy they could figure they could figure it out pretty damn quick if you hadn't done your homework.
00:23:23
Speaker
You know what i mean? And so, but that's great. I would much rather have that kind of interaction than a, you know, Scantron multi- you know, multiple choice test where I'm like, I'm guessing half the time, all that stuff. Like you don't walk away satisfied from something like that, but it really is that like, what do you believe and why not to make an argument, not to win me over, but like, what do you believe?
00:23:46
Speaker
And I think, I think God loves that kind of stuff too. Like, I don't, I actually believe that God loves us and doesn't want us to be robots. I think he really wants to talk with us about what we believe and why. And I think he's okay.
00:24:00
Speaker
If we don't fully agree with or fully understand everything in the Bible. And I certainly know God's okay with me. When I pray, it seems like half the time I'm pissed off at him and he's big enough to take that, right? Like half the Psalms are David or Solomon being pissed.
00:24:16
Speaker
So it must be okay. Cause it's in the book for cried out loud. So it's like, God must be okay with us being real with him. I think that's what he wants. He doesn't want rote. He doesn't want us to just memorize stuff for memorization sake. I think he's saying, Hey kiddo, what do you believe?
00:24:31
Speaker
And why? Let's talk about that. So what point did all you say after your wife's cancer battle, yeah which I'm not a hundred percent convinced that God didn't give her cancer. I am a hundred percent convinced, but that's okay. If you don't agree on that, that is okay.
00:24:47
Speaker
Cause I, I could totally see the biblical understanding of why you, like you could actually make a case based on some of the stuff in the old Testament that God maybe did it. I truly believe that he did not.
00:24:58
Speaker
And, and I can, I can back that up too, but we don't have to get into that. So. We'll ask him one day. Yeah. Well, here's and when he confirms you can be like, or I will say Casey, I do have a category and this, this is a full falls fully under the mystery of God. Cause honestly, like you gotta have some mystery of God.
00:25:18
Speaker
And so I have, I have what I call the leather couch theology where there is some stuff in the Bible where I don't get it There are some things that God says not to do. And I'm like, I don't fully understand that.
00:25:32
Speaker
But I realize like God only gets pissed at stuff that divides us like or that keeps us away or separated from him. That's the only place where he gets mad, like when you really dive into it. Right.
00:25:46
Speaker
And so I realized that he I don't think he created sin to punish us. I truly believe that what he does is he is guiding us away from sin because sin has its inherent built in punishment and pain. Right.
00:26:01
Speaker
And so I think God is trying to keep us away from sin for that reason. Right. And so first and foremost, he wants to talk to us about stuff. And when I look and lean on the wisdom of the Bible, most of the time when I side with what the Bible says, most of the time it really does work out. So i'm like, okay, okay.
00:26:19
Speaker
God is proving himself in that way. But there are certain things in the Bible where i'm like, i don't know. i don't know about that. And so I put it in my leather couch theology, which is, and that is like, and I can kind of make a theological debate or like argument for this, but basically there are some stuff that we're just probably not going to get on this side of heaven.
00:26:40
Speaker
And I kind of think that when we get to heaven, we're going to get, i don't know why it's a leather couch. That's probably completely whatever, but like we could sit on a leather couch with God, maybe Jesus, Holy Spirit, maybe.
00:26:51
Speaker
Right. And go, what the hell? Like, remember that January 8th? Like what the hell? Or what's this thing? Like you said this thing and that doesn't make any sense to me. What's the deal?
00:27:03
Speaker
And I truly believe There are certain things in our world we're just not going to understand this side of heaven. And I like some of those things are really frustrating. Some of those things are scary. Some of those things are big.
00:27:15
Speaker
But if I say, all right, God, I trust you. um Help me where I don't. I know you're good with, you know, whether it's a mustard seed of faith or 100% faith, you're good with me. You love me.
00:27:27
Speaker
So help me. Help me to understand what I need to know today. Help me to know what I need to do today and help me to be okay with that. I feel like it probably is a leather couch.
00:27:38
Speaker
I think if, I think God's choice of flooring in his office could really have an effect on my confidence him. What do you think? Like, are you thinking of black and white, like squares, like tile floor? Are you thinking like- just feeling like if if I got there and there was Berber carpet, I might leave.
00:27:55
Speaker
Right. Well, I'm like, I'm like, are we talking shag? Like, like, or like you were, you want to take your shoes off and like rub your toes in it, like die hard.
00:28:06
Speaker
Or are you like, ew, you know, like you don't want to go barefoot on that stuff. Right. Like I could see, I could see that like the kind of my parents put in the basement when I was a kid that would like tear holes in your socks.
00:28:16
Speaker
That would be a real upset for me. Oh, and the rug burn on your elbows when you're playing dodgeball with your friends. Like, come on. No way. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe God would land anti-Berber. Like, I don't know, but like, Hey, we'll see.
00:28:31
Speaker
and somebody asked me the other day, like, wait, what color leather are we talking? Like natural, rich Brown. Are we talking like red leather, black leather? I'm like, I don't know. That part doesn't matter to me as much, light but I will say good quality leather, good, thick, like old school leather.
Faith in Business Practices
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah. That's Ashley furniture crap. ah sort Like Indiana Jones leather jacket leather. We're talking like that, you know, half inch thick leather, what we're talking about there.
00:29:02
Speaker
Special breed of cow. exactly So how does, okay. One of the things that, that Sam and I have talked a little bit about that I think is kind of, uh, it's a it's a interest to me. It's kind of stuck in my mind is like, yeah Um, you know, I grew up around,
00:29:23
Speaker
evangelicalism. and And I think there was ah there was this notion of like there's there's Christian companies like Chick-fil-A is a Christian company. I think some people would describe the company that I work. Some of my my sales reps would describe my company as like a Christian company.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. And like what what is your opinion? I mean, do you think that a can a can there be such a thing as a Christian company? And like what does that mean? Well, that's the thing I'm with you like, um, early on. So, you know, like I said, we have a training company and I do, ah coaching is part of what we offer executive, uh, coaching and leadership coaching or work with a lot of CEOs and founders, that kind of stuff.
00:30:08
Speaker
And when I first started this thing, I prayed about it and Lord, I'm going to be a Christian coach. And I feel like he said, please don't. Right. Be a coach. That's a Christian. Don't, don't try to be, don't, don't do the label thing. And, and Hey, if if somebody feels compelled back in the band days, Christians in a band and not a Christian. Hello. That's exactly right. It was so funny how they felt so limited, um especially in the mid eighties.
00:30:34
Speaker
But like, to me, it's one of those where like, is it a Christian organization are they Christians in an organization? Right. And I feel like I know for me, i you know, I don't have any problem with somebody saying that they're, you know, that they have a Christian organization or they're leading a Christian organization.
00:30:53
Speaker
um I just choose to not do it that way. i always say like we try to build our company on biblical principles wherever and and however we can.
00:31:05
Speaker
But like, here's the thing, like some of our employees are not Christians. they're They're not Jesus people. Like a few of them have a little bit of church hurt, to be perfectly honest, you know, all that stuff.
00:31:16
Speaker
So like I want them to come in and go, this freaking place is awesome. Like we deliver excellence. We serve our people well.
00:31:27
Speaker
um I openly talk about that sometimes some of the strategy I get is from prayer. And some of the strategy I get is because I hire really expensive coaches and they help me, you know, that kind of stuff. But I'm pretty open about my faith.
00:31:41
Speaker
I'm also really open that they don't have to believe what I believe, but they can also like they have front row seats to see me. Like I'm a recovering warrior, Casey. Like I used to be a black belt level warrior, like zero to 60 as fast as a te Tesla warrior.
00:31:59
Speaker
And I don't have that as much. anymore. And a big part of that is my faith and prayer and just walking in kind of more joy and more in the moment, stuff like that. So like, honestly, I wouldn't want to call call ourselves a Christian company because some of the people that work for us that are freaking amazing, I think we would have scared them away.
00:32:20
Speaker
And that sucks, right? Like I want them to come in. ah want them to see what we do. I want them to see us walk with excellence. I want them to be a part of that.
Building Genuine Connections in Faith
00:32:30
Speaker
And then if, you know, they also get exposed to the gospel in a different way or a relationship with God in a really like tangible way, that's freaking great. Right.
00:32:41
Speaker
But I'm not trying to win them to Christ. I'm just, i mean I mean, I think that Jesus really wanted us to walk with him and be a curiosity. Very rarely did he want to win an argument or a debate. Right.
00:32:54
Speaker
Right. Like, I think, you know, he would poke fights with the Pharisees and the Sadducees just because he wanted to wake them up, like offend the heart to reveal the soul. Right. Like to be able to and and like get in there and say, hey, you guys are missing it. Come over here.
00:33:09
Speaker
Let's like let's talk about this stuff. So I, I I'm with you. Like I, I'm not anti, i mean, I ate a Chick-fil-A on Saturday and enjoyed my chicken sandwich immensely.
00:33:22
Speaker
Right now. Is it because they're a Christian company or not? Like, did they say, you know, uh, my pleasure because they're Christians. I don't know. Like, And could the founder call him a Christian organization? That's fine.
00:33:35
Speaker
But i I don't run it that way just because i want people to feel really safe and get to experience it, um you know, and then say, hey, I choose that. um that And not to say that's, you know, if you say you're a Christian organization, you can't do that. But I just find that it's a little bit better to just be a curiosity.
00:33:54
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, I like that because I it always makes me think of, um you know, like the the church in the school that I went to, you know, especially a school like used this like very fundamentalist curriculum that yeah the the people were nuts.
00:34:14
Speaker
Like it was it was way out there, you know, like ah I won't even go into it, but. I remember there was like this idea of, you know, like how you witness to people and like where that, you know, how that happened, how you should handle that in the workplace. And it's like, well, don't take part in conversations that aren't about godly things. And, you know, take your Bible to work and on your lunch break, sit at the table and read your Bible. And you maybe somebody will ask you about it. It's like,
00:34:45
Speaker
how detached are you guys? And nobody's going to ask you about it. Yeah. It's as wild. Like what's, what's crazy about it. I'm, I'm with you. It's, it's one of those where I think people figure out pretty quick. If you think of them as a project.
00:35:01
Speaker
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. You know what i mean? That is a terrible feeling, right? It is absolutely a terrible feeling. And it's a little bit of like, i don't know about you, but we have a really nice mall. I live in West Des Moines. We have a really nice mall in West Des Moines.
00:35:16
Speaker
And what's, what's weird or sad is in the middle of the mall, like they've, you know, all the spaces are rented out. So now they've started to put these like kiosks. I think they call them kiosks in the middle of the mall. And you walked out and people like come at you.
00:35:31
Speaker
Like, Hey, do you want some lotion? Hey, come and talk to me about a massage. Hey, do you want a timeshare? Do you want like, and it feels a little bit like you're walking in a developing country. It's so weird. I'm like, I hope you guys get paid. Well, that's brutal.
00:35:45
Speaker
Right. But I do think a lot of people treat their faith that way. Kind of like that. Jump out and graduate grab you or manufacture a conversation. um And like, I think people do, people start to feel like a project and I'd much rather have interesting conversations and then let that, let your belief system not come up as an argument or the right way to think, like, let it come up to like, be about how you think or how you come to a decision.
00:36:16
Speaker
not, not like it's the right way to make a decision. Right. I don't know about you, but like when I went to, you know, go study American history in England and my American history teacher wound up being an anti-American socialist, get that anti-American socialist. She knew all about America, but she was an anti-American socialist.
00:36:38
Speaker
So immediately We disagreed on everything. And what was crazy was, was like everything she said was absolute truth to her.
00:36:49
Speaker
And everything she said was absolutely false to me. And we were both right. Now I'm not talking about like a universalism. It was like a perspective, right? Like absolutely perspective.
00:37:02
Speaker
Now what's interesting about this Casey is ah the last month I was there, i was there for a year the first time. And I wound up like literally my dad worked for the state. And at one point she said, every government employee in the United States is corrupt and they're being bribed.
00:37:17
Speaker
Like one of my friends said, you know that you have a vein that pops out of your forehead when you get really mad? I'm like, no. He's like, when you were debating with the teacher, like your vein was popping out. I was like, ah, but the last month I'm there.
00:37:32
Speaker
I wind up walking down the hallway where all the professors and teachers have offices. And I noticed this teacher sitting in her office and I went in, I was like 19 and I went in I was like, Hey, um, I'm sorry that we had that. and It was like a big drop, drop down, drag out fight.
00:37:50
Speaker
was like, Hey, I'm sorry. I, uh, ah kind of took some tactics that I'm not proud of. And I apologize for that. And she's like, sit down. And so I sat down and she's like, do you know why I hate the United States?
00:38:03
Speaker
I was like, I do not. And she's like, well, when I grew up, I loved the United States. I studied the United States. I knew everything about the United States. And when I graduated, I went and lived in New England and went to a private boys school.
00:38:18
Speaker
And I was treated horribly for three years as a 21, 22, 23 year old. And I began to hate the United States. And I came home and I held onto that hate.
00:38:31
Speaker
I'm like, ugh, that sucks. I'm sorry, right? And we wound up having this great conversation. And then for a month, here's what's amazing, Casey, for a month, we both started learning because we actually were able to see. Like I said, I am so sorry that happened to you. That sucks. Like that sucks.
00:38:54
Speaker
Especially it like you were basically my age and this was happening to you. You were on your own, all this kind of stuff. So for that last month, we were we were able to learn from each other because we saw each other as humans.
00:39:05
Speaker
Right. And in some ways we were learning from each other because we weren't trying to prove we were each other was right or wrong. We're trying to learn from each other. And and i we walked out of there. She came to my going away party at a bar, at a pub, at a, like, i mean, it was crazy what happened in one month. We had been,
00:39:25
Speaker
like bitter enemies for 11 months. And then for one month, we actually became friends by the end of that month because we finally saw each other as humans, not as projects. And I think that's, I think that's what I try to do now all the time. I try not to see people as projects or, you know, as a ministry. Yeah.
00:39:44
Speaker
Right. And, and I don't mean anything bad by a ministry word, but it's that like, Hey, they're not projects. they're people love them, meet them, talk with them. And, and, you know, if they're curious, they might be curious about what you believe, but are you curious about what they believe?
00:39:59
Speaker
Get curious. Yeah, there's there's there's also like an element of, you know, you do you go through these training classes and stuff, you know, for sales company, whatever, whatever you know, and there's there's stuff where you're like, okay, this is a legitimate like developmental exercise, right? And then there's stuff that's box checking.
00:40:22
Speaker
Sure. it's A lot of the like traditional... evangelism practices seem more like box checking than anything else. Like it's efficient, right? Like it's efficient.
00:40:33
Speaker
Like, did you get people into heaven? It's efficient. Did you get them to say this? actually has an impact on anybody. I feel like at Liberty, like when, cause Sam and I went to Liberty university in Virginia. yeah Yeah. And it was crazy. Like there was a bunch of times where you'd go to dinner at like Buffalo wild wings and you'd come and you're in Lynchburg, Virginia. Like,
00:40:55
Speaker
you're You're two minutes from the Liberty campus. Everybody there is a Christian. For all right intents and purposes. and You'd come out of Buffalo Wild Wings or wherever, and there would be like every car in the parking lot had like a gospel track under the...
00:41:09
Speaker
under the wiper and you're like, what are we doing here? Yeah. You know, right. And it's like, OK, I guess, you know, you feel good about this exercise that you did, but I don't think this really has an effect on anybody, you know.
00:41:25
Speaker
Right. i mean, time well spent elsewhere. I feel that way, too, about like, ah I mean, I'm sure I was the same way. I mean, Kansas is covered in like those like the the Christian billboards.
00:41:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah. That have like one sentence on them. Yeah. and they're like, it's ah it's like a picture of a baby and it says there is proof for God. Yeah. And you're like, what is this for? How much money are you spending to have this sentence like in plain view? Like this is so this is such a waste of time and resources, you know, to to get no one's. to So schizophrenics can call your helpline.
00:42:03
Speaker
i just i don't get it. You know, it is. it's It is. It's a really interesting thing in that. Yeah. And, you know, you see the billboards that have the fear tactics to like, you know, it's got flames and it's like, you think it's hot in here, you know, like, you know, where are you going to spend eternity? All those kinds of things. And it's interesting. It's like, you know, a shotgun wedding never creates a loving relationship.
00:42:32
Speaker
and And I truly believe, you know, when Jesus says, I came so that you'd have life and life to the fullest. He wasn't saying, i want to scare you into a relationship with me. He's like, Hey, if you knew how much I love you, if you knew how, how much I really want to guide you, not as a robot, but in a relationship to help you know that I am with you.
00:42:55
Speaker
Right. Like, um, yeah, it's a lot more powerful and a lot more long lasting and authentic when it's real relationship versus fear, but fear feels fast.
Faith's Influence on Business Decisions
00:43:06
Speaker
So I get it. Like I, I'm a to-do list guy I'm an efficiency guy. So there's a part of me that's like, well, I, I'm sure there's an argument that, well, you know, if we get, you know, one 10th of every car on the interstate to think about hell, right. Maybe they'll think about God a little more, whatever. Like I I'm with you. I'm not a huge fan of that tactic.
00:43:31
Speaker
Um, but I see why people do it, but yeah, it's, it's kind of sad. And again, I don't think shotgun weddings have ever created a ah loving relationship. Yeah, maybe not.
00:43:42
Speaker
So, okay. So you're... So you have this experience and you you you know are reinvigorated like with your personal faith. ah it's like yeah how does How does that take shape from ah from a business perspective? like How did you take that into the workplace for yourself? yeah like Not necessarily like so talking to other people or whatever, but right like can you can you think of examples where like your faith...
00:44:08
Speaker
your beliefs in God and stuff. I guess your principles either pushed you to do something that didn't necessarily make business sense or kept you from doing things that did make business sense. 100%.
00:44:22
Speaker
Absolutely. And here's the thing, full transparency, man. I love the story of the Israelites because they'd be like, Hey, God saved us. Oh my gosh. God is amazing. And then three days later they will have forgotten about it and been complaining and then start worship. Current season is not my favorite.
00:44:36
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Right. But it's that thing of like that. But that thing of like, it is so easy to forget how God moves, but it's also easy. I know for me, like it was easier for me to understand or believe that God could move in a hospital and save my wife.
00:44:56
Speaker
Right. But for some reason, and then it didn't, you know, when I look back on it, it's almost laughable, but for some reason I thought, well, he can move in a church, he can move in a hospital, but I don't think he moves in the marketplace. Like, I don't think he moves in the business world. Like almost like, you know, you drive to work and he waves at at you as you leave the driveway, like, okay, see you tonight. Like now he wants to be with us everywhere. Like if you look at a lot of Jesus miracles and we could get into a whole thing here, but like a lot of Jesus miracles were marketplace miracles, like the fish, like, you know, the Peter's big hall.
00:45:35
Speaker
That was a marketplace miracle. The turning water into wine. know you've talked about this a little bit on other shows, but like turning water into wine, that was a marketplace miracle. miracle Like if you do the math on the wine that was produced there, that was anywhere from 80 to $150,000 worth of wine.
00:45:53
Speaker
Like that's a marketplace miracle. You what Like he did that in a wedding, but it was in the marketplace. So anyway, so like I, he absolutely has moved. So I'll give you one of my favorite examples of this. Like I have it happen a lot in prayer. So like with my coaching clients, not all my coaching clients are, are Jesus people.
00:46:14
Speaker
but a lot of them are. And I always tell them, Hey, I pray before every coaching call. If that's your brand of vodka, I'll wait and pray with you. If that's not your thing, I'll do it before. And a lot of will say, I'll pray.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah, well I'll pray with you. And so, you know, one of my executives, I was praying for her recently, And i always pray a blessing if they're married, a blessing over their marriage, over their family, over their work, over their home.
00:46:39
Speaker
And in that instance, I got, I said ah blessing over her home and I got a nudge ah just in my heart, say homes, not home.
00:46:50
Speaker
And I was like, I know she only has one home, or at least I believe she only had one home, but I stopped and I said, um ah no, Lord bless her homes. And we were on a zoom call and her eyes open up.
00:47:00
Speaker
And ah so we come to the end of the prayer and she's like, how did you know? said, how did I know what? And she's my husband and I, I bought a second home last night, but nobody knows about it except for our attorney and our real estate agent.
00:47:13
Speaker
How do you know this? Like we didn't live close to each other. There's no way I would have known. i was like, well, God just nudged me to say homes, not home. And she started to cry. She's like, i was wondering what God felt like. i It seems a little extravagant, but like I was wondering what God might think about this, you know, dream, ah you know, home, the second home. And it was really cool. So that like little things like that, which was actually a big thing for her, but little things like that.
00:47:37
Speaker
But i'll I'll give you a ah more elaborate story. um I was, ah we were doing, I was doing a lot of speaking a few years ago and it was about 80% of our business.
00:47:48
Speaker
And I, towards the end of the year was honestly getting a little burnout. I was on the road all the time, all that. And a friend of mine prayed for me in the summer and was like, Hey, you're going to get a word from the Lord in the mountains.
00:48:00
Speaker
And I don't know about you, but sometimes like goofy prayer language makes me feel a little uncomfortable. I'm like, come on, like, give me the specifics. What does that mean? But they were like, I don't know. I just get this nudge that you're going to hear from God in the mountains.
00:48:11
Speaker
I'm like, okay. And I didn't really have anything planned to be in the mountains, but then we sold a speaking gig in Oregon And so I just decided I love the mountains, um all that stuff. So I decided to go do the speaking gig and then stick around for a couple of days. Nobody knew that I was sticking around.
00:48:27
Speaker
I went did the speaking gig on a Tuesday night. Everybody thought I went to the airport. I went back to the Airbnb and stayed for a couple of days. And the next day I got up and I went to basically a state park.
00:48:40
Speaker
Now there's a whole... kind of other story to how I found this particular trail, all this kind of stuff, but I won't go there. Um, but as I'm on this trail, uh, and ah I wound up getting guided to a ah park that was, uh, not busy at all on a trail where there was hardly any other humans.
00:49:00
Speaker
I really add kind of a Psalm 23, you know, he guided me to green pastures and I, I literally took a nap behind the, or like by this stream, it was, it was gorgeous. And it felt like I was walking out,
00:49:11
Speaker
Psalm 23. And I hiked to this trail and um got to the end of this trail. at at least I felt like it was the end. And there was this big rock overlooking this mountain lake.
00:49:23
Speaker
And I felt like God was inviting me to sit down on this rock. And I sat down on this rock and we'd been talking back and forth throughout the day, just been feeling guided by, you know, his prayer and all that stuff and, and some different things.
00:49:34
Speaker
And I sat down on this rock and I got God saying, stop selling speaking. encourage my encouragers. And, ah like god has guided us at different times in our business and told us to do some kind of crazy stuff. And it's always been a thing, but, uh, I was like, Oh wait, well, and I had an employee that all she did was help sell my speaking and guide all that. Like that was her job.
00:49:59
Speaker
And so my first question was, well, what about Lindsay? And I got this nudge. Hey, Lindsay wants to talk to you about something. So, uh, stop selling speaking, encourage my encouragers, talk to Lindsay about it too.
00:50:10
Speaker
Thank you. So I came down off the mountain. I called my wife, said, Hey, this is what I'm getting. She's a big prayer person too. So she's like, okay, if that's what you're getting, we'll do it. And I mean, again, 80% of our revenue, man, that was a big deal.
00:50:22
Speaker
um And then I called Lindsay, my employee that all she did was sell my speaking. And I said, she's like, did you get something? And she wasn't a Christian, but she saw me pray enough. She knew that I got stuff and she's like, did you get something? And I said, well, i did, but I also got that. I was supposed to ask you something first.
00:50:41
Speaker
And she's like, okay, all right. Well, that's big. And I said, okay, well, what are you, she's like, well, I realized that I want to do what I do for you for other speakers.
00:50:51
Speaker
So I was wanting to talk with you about going to halftime or less than halftime so that could start my own business. was like, well, that's amazing. Cause here's what I got. I got that. I was supposed to stop selling speaking.
00:51:03
Speaker
And she's like, oh my gosh, that's incredible. So that night we built a website for her She launched her business and we stopped selling speaking. Now that was a September of 2019.
00:51:15
Speaker
And we had sold, we had a ah book of businesses about six months. ah So when we stopped selling speaking, there was still six months of speaking or so. The last speaking gig that I had, I drove home from that. It was up in Nebraska.
00:51:29
Speaker
I drove home from that. And she, the event planner that hired me called me on my way home. she's like, well, it's crazy. She's like, if our event had been tonight, I would add to cancel it. because this COVID thing, I don't know if this COVID thing is going to be anything, but we have to shut down the whole campus. So if we'd had your event tonight, we wouldn't have been able to have it. But since we had it last night, we could have it.
00:51:50
Speaker
And what's wild is in that six months, um we were able to basically shift our business to all online training and it wound up being that like COVID obviously horrible, never wanted to happen again, terrible for the world in many ways, but it wound up like we were in good shape because we had six months to redirect our business. I did not know that that's why we were redirecting our business. And I certainly don't believe that God put COVID on the world to, you know, allowed us to have a great year that year.
00:52:25
Speaker
But I do know that he said, stop selling speaking and encourage my encouragers and And that's what we did. And it helped us navigate a worldwide pandemic.
00:52:36
Speaker
And I know like some people hear that and go, wow, that's amazing. And some people hear that and get pissed because they're like, well, God didn't tell me about the freaking pandemic, you know, and it's fair. Like, but I also wonder how many different things.
00:52:50
Speaker
how many different bandsaws have I walked into because I didn't stop and just listen to God once in a while. Right. So like, I get it that that might be frustrating for some folks, but I just, I offer it as a story to say, I think God wants to talk to us all the time.
00:53:06
Speaker
And sometimes he's really clear. And sometimes he talks a little bit in riddles and mysteries. So we have to talk with them more about it, but I truly believe that he wants to guide us and, and not as robots, not as puppets, but but as kids, you know? And um so, yeah, so that's, that's one of our, one of our stories.
Learning from Past Mistakes
00:53:26
Speaker
Did he mention anything about myocarditis? He did not. I don't know what that is.
00:53:33
Speaker
theyre no mom
00:53:36
Speaker
whos yeah We're sponsored by Ivermectin. Oh, there you go. i I'll do the ad rate after you're gone. I love it. Yeah, exactly. Make sure you have the disclaimers. Yeah, I love it.
00:53:47
Speaker
So, yeah, i mean, it's it's wild. Like he's guided us through um different things like legal battles, ah partnerships, um tough clients, great clients.
00:53:59
Speaker
um big corporate sponsors, all this kind of stuff. Like he's given us different strategy that I really like, I'm not that smart, Casey. So like, there are times where he's downloaded strategy that didn't make any sense, but wound up paying off.
00:54:14
Speaker
Now I will say there are times where, um I didn't feel like I was hearing from God and that sucked. But i I think he is also a God that trusts us. And sometimes it's one of those things where he might tell us something and then let us have some time to walk it out.
00:54:32
Speaker
I think sometimes not because he's a mean dad, but I know for me, like I am the parent of, I'm a dad of two boys. And I know sometimes I absolutely want to rush in and save them.
00:54:45
Speaker
And I know as a good dad, uh, sometimes the very best thing is to let my boys struggle a little bit to help them learn. They're stronger than they think they're more resourceful than they think. And I think God, you know, kind of takes that same approach only, you know, a hundred times better, uh, than me that sometimes he saves us. And sometimes he walks with us through it.
00:55:09
Speaker
Hmm. Has that impulse ever like gone wrong? Oh yeah. I mean, have you ever, you've ever felt like you were being led to do something only to have it not work out?
00:55:22
Speaker
Yeah. Which, is which is wild. So absolutely. There's been times where I will tell you, like I felt guidance. um Here's, here's where it often happens. So I, we had a situation where I got a product idea And God gave a strategy and resources for funding for that product idea.
00:55:41
Speaker
And um it was actually kind of miraculous, but we don't have enough time for it. But like God showed off and we were able to get funding for this product idea. And it was pretty great.
00:55:53
Speaker
And so I, and here's the thing is like, where you have to be careful, where I have to be careful is I get excited. And sometimes I, uh, faster than, than God calls me to, or I start picking stuff up.
00:56:10
Speaker
So like our initial order of this product was 10,000. and things were going well and funding came for the 10,000 in a miraculous way. And all these relationships really clicked.
00:56:24
Speaker
And so for me, I prayed into it, but I think honestly, i i kind of like, all right, God, if 10,000 was good, 50,000 has got to be better, right? It's more, it's bigger, will be a bigger curiosity.
00:56:40
Speaker
And so I ordered 50,000 of them. And what was interesting was the funding for that as a struggle, the manufacturing for that was a struggle. The sales of those were a struggle.
00:56:52
Speaker
And I still was kind of pissed at God when I look back at It's like, oh yeah, no, that was totally me. um but I will say that God still came through and,
00:57:03
Speaker
and ah like I had to completely own that I had run with it. It was kind of my idea. God still came through in some really creative ways to be able to, you know, show off and help us to solve the situation.
00:57:19
Speaker
But I know, I know I brought problems on because I was just excited and started to run, run out ahead of what I think God was calling me to. This wasn't back in the pharma days, was it?
00:57:30
Speaker
No, this, I didn't know if your product idea was like hydrocodone fun dip or something. Yeah. No, I never, I never went that route. I will say working in the pharma days, one of the funniest stories of that was our our older son was in kindergarten and I, I had gone up through the ranks in pharmaceuticals pharmaceuticals.
00:57:53
Speaker
Wound up being a manager of a $2 billion dollars pharmaceutical companies, training department, all this kind of stuff. But then I went back out in the field. And ah and so I was I was schlepping samples. And our son's kindergarten teacher called us one day and they and she said, hey, you need to talk with Ben about how he describes what you do.
00:58:14
Speaker
And I was like, well, why is that? And she said, well, I went around today and asked, Hey, what's everybody's moms do? What's everybody's dads do? And Ben said that my dad sells drugs out of the trunk of his car.
00:58:27
Speaker
So she's like, yeah, you're going to want to talk to him about that. I was like, well, he's not inaccurate. It's just, ah yeah, you probably should describe it a little bit different. Who was that? Like the 90s?
00:58:39
Speaker
Like late 90s or something like that? Yeah, that was the 90s. 100%. Yes. Actually, that would have been the early two thousand Wasn't that kind of like the heyday, crazy times, wild stories, pharmaceutical sales? When I first was in pharmaceutical sales, ah was in the mid to late 90s.
00:58:58
Speaker
And I ah had a territory in Montana. And i basically, i said that I have the northern half the Louisiana Purchase. I had Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming.
00:59:09
Speaker
And so it was the wild, wild west. But in those pharma days, it was really interesting because, yeah, there was some really bad things happening in the pharma world, especially on the sales side. But what's funny is is almost all my doctors were either cowboys or fly fishermen, like the most grounded people. None of them wanted to do fancy golf trips, but they would definitely go do some fly fishing or rock face climbing or whatever, you know, so it was a very different place to be a pharmaceutical rep.
00:59:37
Speaker
Um, but yeah, there were some really bad decisions being made in the industry as a whole. at that time, but it was a great time for me because I really did get to build great relationships and I really couldn't go too wrong. Cause there wasn't, there weren't expensive restaurants to go to, you know, all these kinds of things, whining and dining just meant, yeah, let's go fly fishing.
00:59:59
Speaker
So, Oh, I think you muted. Oops, there we go. There we go. Yeah, i feel like the Sackler family may have misinterpreted God's movement.
01:00:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's ah ah definitely ah some some ah bad things that happened in that and that season and since. I mean, it's, yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot, ah high risk, high reward. And um yeah, with that, a lot a lot of really good things and some pretty bad things too.
01:00:29
Speaker
what I feel like if you're in sales, like there's certain segments of sales that always kind of have a reputation for like, oh, that's that's wild. Like I remember remember having friends that did pharmaceutical sales for a while.
01:00:46
Speaker
And it was kind of like 2010, 2011. Yeah, I lived in Michigan the time. yeah i lived in michigan at the time Nothing good happening in Michigan at that point. Like it was a very bad, depressing happening. Yes. In Michigan, the whole state on taking the black pill at the time.
01:01:03
Speaker
And but I remember like my friend got hired on as a as a pharmaceutical rep. And he was shocking the money that they threw around like $150 a day per diem just for meals and stuff. Like they're going to like training events and just going to Roos Chris or Capitol grill every night. was just crazy. I will say the first company that I started with, it was a great company, but it was very entrepreneurial, small, but it wound up having two very successful drugs back to back.
01:01:34
Speaker
And I, it was my first pharmaceutical experience. And I'll never forget because I did business to business sales for two years for a company called Pitney Bowes. And we sold mailing and shipping systems.
01:01:46
Speaker
So let's just say copiers were glamorous compared to me. I was selling shipping systems to people who ran loading docs. Right. So like the copier was a very sexy thing compared to what I was selling.
01:02:00
Speaker
But then I got to move into pharmaceuticals and I'll never forget, like i had to pay my own expenses. I drove a you know, old Toyota Corolla around my territory, all that stuff.
01:02:11
Speaker
And my first day on, on the job in the pharmaceutical world, they sent me to ah Walt Disney world for the national meeting. And I remember, I don't know if you remember John Grisham's book, the firm,
01:02:25
Speaker
Um, that book had just come out. I had just read that book where a guy named Mitch, the main character of that book had been, you know, hired by this corrupt law firm that just wind and dined him.
01:02:37
Speaker
And i remember the night I show up, you know, to Disney world, you know, a limousine picked me up. I had my own room at Disney world. I called my wife and I'm like, I am 99% sure I just got hired by the firm.
01:02:51
Speaker
Like, let me tell you where I'm at just in case I don't come home. Like, oh no. um But yeah, I mean, it was just, it was just a totally different experience. What, the okay, so you being in a sales guy in the territory, like what is your worst cold calling story?
01:03:14
Speaker
So I will put it in the naive salesperson category, not that worldly, but when I was in that business to business sales ah role, ah again, mailing and shifting systems.
01:03:27
Speaker
So think, you know, lowest tier copier salesman. So I had some accounts, but mostly like at least 50% of my business was cold calling. Just walking down the street, walking into offices.
01:03:43
Speaker
And, uh, you know, just cold calling. Right. So I walk into this business. I hadn't even, I, I got so numb Casey. Like I didn't even look at the doors anymore. I didn't look at the signs. I'm just like, Hey, you know, I had my questions of how much, how much mailing are you doing? How much shipping are you doing? How are you doing today?
01:04:05
Speaker
All of this. And I'm walking in there. And I'm trying to, like, I've learned, you know, they give you the art of small talk. Get them talking about something, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so I'm talking with this receptionist and I say to her, hey, I smell plaster. Are you guys remodeling?
01:04:24
Speaker
And that's when she points to the sign that's above her shoulder. And it is a prosthetics company.
01:04:33
Speaker
They were... Making prosthetics like behind this wall. I'm like, I think our conversation's over. She's like, yeah, you're done.
Final Reflections and Podcast Information
01:04:44
Speaker
So I at least looked at the signage from then on. Right. Yeah. so Terrible. ah Couldn't recover from that one. I'm pretty fast thinker, but I couldn't recover from that one.
01:04:59
Speaker
Man. Hmm. Well, man, I, uh, I really appreciate you having this conversation and I, you know, I feel like, uh, our show is not always, doesn't always appeal to, uh, to people who still have a foot in the church scene and stuff or people who are, who are still, uh, you know, practicing Christians and whatnot. So I, I appreciate you coming on and I really appreciate your perspective on things. Yeah. I feel, uh,
01:05:28
Speaker
Well, that's why I love your podcast, man. I think you're having real raw conversations that need to be had, you know? And i like ah to to create safe spaces, to have real conversations where you're like honoring and and truly curious about people's perspectives. that That's one of the things I mean, we're like, you know what? i'd I'd love to be on that show. i'd be honored to be on that show because I truly believe you guys are curious and like just want to have real raw conversations. And I'm i'm all for that.
01:05:59
Speaker
Well, okay. Last, uh, last pearly gates, leather couch question to ask the Lord. Uh, do you think Epstein killed himself?
01:06:10
Speaker
Oh boy. You know, I, it's interesting. I, I started to do some deep dives on that because there's a little part of me that's conspiracy theorist. There's a little part of me that's tinfoil hat, but I try to stay on the healthy side of that. And I don't want to, I don't want to seem to whatever, i don't know, but I will say like obviously there's a lot of, a lot of questions, right? Like my dad was a warden in a prison, right? There are certain things that you do when, uh, you know, somebody's high risk or somebody's on suicide watch, uh, those kinds of things. And I probably have a slightly different perspective just because my dad was a warden in a prison. Like we knew, like, what is the protocol? All those kinds of things.
01:06:56
Speaker
But, and this might sound a little too, I don't know, but when I think about it, I think, man, I don't know what that dude's story really is or was, you know, but there's a part of me that's like, man, where did he get hurt?
01:07:12
Speaker
Like, where did he start believing the lies? Cause I mean, he's really, i don't know that much about his business and boy, when you start to dig into that, there's really big question marks on, and you know, his profit margin, his revenue, his, uh, you know, uh,
01:07:31
Speaker
the wealth that he had based on you know, yeah really kind of how small his business seemed to be, all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of question marks. But when I look at somebody like that, like, i don't know about you, man, but I used to have a really judgy heart.
01:07:48
Speaker
Like it'd be just so easy for me to just throw daggers that dude and just, you know, all that. And I still have issue with judgment. ah Probably everybody does, but it's still in there.
01:08:00
Speaker
But lately there's a part of my heart that breaks for a dude like that and goes, I don't know what the story is. I don't know if he was, uh, you know, just somebody who took the fall for somebody else.
01:08:11
Speaker
But like, you know, you think about somebody like that it's like, damn, That dude was alone or I don't know, maybe he wasn't, maybe somebody killed him. I don't know. But it's like, I guarantee damn t you he was scared and freaking alone. You're like, that sucks, man. That just sucks.
01:08:28
Speaker
And, uh, like, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I don't know. It's like, but to me, it's one of those where it's like, I don't know. I've, I've, I've made decisions, bad decisions in my life. you know, I've made some mistakes and stuff like that. And I know I just interviewed Paul Young who wrote the shack and he's been spending time with um ah death row inmates lately.
01:08:50
Speaker
um And, and somebody kind of encouraged him to do a challenge and and do it And he said, it's changed his life. And ah he's, he's befriended. Like he has literally friends who, with 12 guys that are on death row.
01:09:03
Speaker
And ah one guy's been on death row for 35 years and is just waiting his death sentence. And, you know, he said he's just had a different perspective on, on those guys. Like a lot of those guys, it's like, you know, they're saying, well, I'm, I'm being judged for probably my worst day on my worst decision on my worst day.
01:09:22
Speaker
And, uh, you know, Paul just said, it really is given in perspective to not judge himself and not judge others as much, just to be able to go, ah So, you know, I, I have a feeling he did terrible, you know, Epstein probably did or was a part of terrible, terrible things, but you also go, all right, where did that start for him?
01:09:42
Speaker
Like somebody abused him? Like, you know, hurt people, hurt people, abuse people, abuse people. Like, where did that start for him? You know? So you just have to wonder. But that is a very charitable answer.
01:09:53
Speaker
yeah Right. i know. It's one of those that I used to be super judgy and I would lose sleep over stuff like that. I get so pissed at people and I would just like i would get mad. I would like, you know, condemn those suckers to hell, you know, all that stuff.
01:10:11
Speaker
And recently I've just tried to go, you know what? I don't necessarily have to have an opinion on that. Um, and, and just try to have a little bit more grace for people. I know that it doesn't make me all that great at, at, uh, talking about some topics cause it's not always satisfying, but it's a lot more peaceful for me. Yeah.
01:10:28
Speaker
Yeah. Just me, uh, uh, just fuming at my, at my phone. Yeah. Right. Well, it's that thing. Like I just realized I was losing. Like and when I say I was a recovering worrier, like I would worry myself sick and like be sick for weeks at a time where I confounded doctors, all that stuff.
01:10:48
Speaker
So I had to fix that shit like that, like that, my heart and my head were broken. So I just had to start holding onto to those things a little bit more loosely. And, um, it seems to work at least seems to help.
01:11:03
Speaker
Well, where can people find your, your show and your website and learn little more about what you do? Best place to start is to go to Mitch Matthews.com. There's two T's in Matthews. So Mitch Matthews, we do have some Matthews that are one tiers relatives.
01:11:18
Speaker
But um we're we're a two tier. So MitchMatthews.com or they can look up the show Dream, Think, Do. um And I do. I interview a lot of different people, ah you know, a lot of different faith backgrounds, ah you know, neuroscientists and entrepreneurs and Olympic athletes and Academy Award winners.
01:11:37
Speaker
um A lot of people with a lot of different backgrounds. But basically our umbrella is to help people. dream bigger, think better and do more what, where, what they were put on the planet to do. And I figure the best way to do that is to get people telling their stories of how they've done it.
01:11:51
Speaker
Um, so it's, it's a fun podcast. I really enjoyed it. It's kind of become a healthy addiction for me. Um, and so, yeah, uh, come over and, and, uh, check it out. All right, everybody. Well, thank you for listening.
01:12:03
Speaker
We will talk to you next time.