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Ep. 226 – A BA in Treachery From Pensacola Christian College w/ Russell Stark of Upward Intuition
317 Plays12 days ago
This week we’re joined by Russell Stark of Upward Intuition, a charity organization that is working to build skateparks in areas where kids have no place to spend time and host professional demonstrations, competitions, and camps where kids not only take part in, but find a place for themselves within the culture of skating! He’s also a former student of Pensacola Christian College, which is a concentration camp for sheltered young people and Christian kids who got caught smoking or watching MTV. We had a great time talking with Russell about his upbringing, difficult break from the church, and the great work that Upward Intuition is doing! You can follow Upward Intuition on Instagram and Facebook (@upwardintuition) and Youtube (@upwardintuition686), and check www.upwardintuition.orgfor the full story and information on how to support their work!
P.S. We had a ton of technical difficulties and interruptions while recording this episode, so bear with us if you notice some rough transitions.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
you can't, you have to scan out like you're in a fenced in environment. And you have to scan out a dog.
Life at Pensacola Christian College
00:00:07
Speaker
Pretty much exactly like a prisoner. This is basically what it is, but you have to scan out to go anywhere and I'm like, I just want to run up here to the Circle K and get a newspaper.
00:00:19
Speaker
and they're like, you only scan out to go to restaurants. And I'm like well, I've already eaten at cafeteria. I don't need food. I just want a newspaper to sit in my dorm room and read the newspaper. And like, you can't do that. I'm like, so you're basically telling me you want me to lie you want me to lie to you and say I'm going to Burger King so can get a newspaper. And they just kind of like stared at me.
00:00:42
Speaker
And I scanned the card and was like, I'm going to Burger King, even though I'd already told him I've already eaten. But that was just like the initial thing of like this environment. You're going to be a liar and a sneak um to do normal everyday things that people should be able to do.
00:01:17
Speaker
Hey everybody, we are back with another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. I'm Casey. And today we are joined by Russell
Introduction of Russell Stark and Upward Intuition
00:01:27
Speaker
Stark. For the listeners, Russell, but we connected because um some of you may have listened to some of the episodes we've had with ah Andy Prince talking about um some of the work he's done with an organization called Upward Intuition ah that builds skate parks and...
00:01:46
Speaker
and ah Well, they're in the Pensacola, Florida area. um But Russell is ah the man who started it all ah that that um Andy teamed up with. So Andy connected us to get more of that story here because they're doing some really cool shit.
00:02:03
Speaker
And we're really excited to talk to you about it Russell. Yeah, definitely. A lot of exciting things going on. Do you have to correct that in that I didn't start it. joined I joined in. I don't want to take all the ah credit for that.
00:02:16
Speaker
All right. Well, I'm already got a prominent part of it. A groundbreaker. Yeah. yeah So to speak. um But also, Russell, you do share some of share some of our our history, our background um of the ah growing up Christian type. So this this works out in two ways. We get to talk to you about...
00:02:41
Speaker
what you're up to with a really awesome organization and also about some of your experiences that I'm excited to talk about because Casey, I don't remember ah if we've had anyone from ah Pensacola Christian college on,
00:02:59
Speaker
um No, you went to Pensacola. But we've talked a lot about Only for like a year half. but But we're going to let that little carrot dangle for a little bit because before we get into the PCC days and how you ended up there, i'll let's get a snapshot of ah of your younger years, the yesteryears.
Growing Up in a Strict Religious Environment
00:03:19
Speaker
All right. So I grew up, my father was an IFB pastor. I'm a little bit older than and Independent fundamental Baptist, which is more hardcore than like Southern Baptist or. yeah they don't fuck around.
00:03:35
Speaker
They don't fuck around and they don't have any like ah governing body over them. They're all individual and do whatever the hell they want to Oh, okay. So the independent, even you can, you could have like five independent fundamentalist Baptist churches and they are truly independent in fundamentalist in whatever way they see fit.
00:03:54
Speaker
Not agree, have their own. yeah they'll They'll vary in each little thing. We're the right ones. You're not the right one. you know Nice. real that's tough yeah I mean, they really boiled down the infighting, ah to even within their own denomination. you know that Usually, IFB, whatever you're picking as your acronym for your denomination, that's like to put up those guardrails ah so you know what to expect when you walk into each one, and they're not even stopping there.
00:04:22
Speaker
And that's sick. Okay.
Educational Experiences and Challenges
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, totally. My father went to Tennessee Temple University, which is not there anymore, but that'd be the equivalent of kind of PCC. And okay he was an accountant and then he decided, i got the call, you know, I need to preach.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I was like three. And so I grew up in that totally and very hardcore. No TV.
00:04:51
Speaker
Don't go to the movies. Can't listen to music. awesome Yeah, pretty extreme. All the good. That is ah that's a lot like the organization that did that, like put out the curriculum that I used growing up in in Christian school.
00:05:07
Speaker
It was very I don't know if they were IFB or not, but it was something so it was a similar sect where it was like all the rules dialed up to 11. So what curriculum was that?
00:05:19
Speaker
It was Accelerated Christian Education. So I did those for while. This organization called School of Tomorrow. Yeah. A-C-E. Yep. Yep. I did those for a while when I got homeschooled for about two years. And even before that, just small little Christian schools started again within the small church.
00:05:40
Speaker
And we followed that curriculum and hang up the flag and... can't talk in your little cubicle. And I know exactly what you're talking about. ah they chemicals are too scy dade I remember when you those paces, those little booklets. And then remember one time over Christmas, I'd finished one, came back, hadn't taken the test.
00:06:03
Speaker
Didn't even look at it again and just made a hundred because they were pretty simple and pretty easy. Yeah. I don't know what kind of education. Confidence boosters.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah, maybe so. I know mine was poor. That's for sure.
00:06:21
Speaker
I feel like it was really good at teaching you a couple, like there was a couple of things that worked out with ACE. If you were the right kind of person But like things like grammar and like English type stuff. I mean, that stuff was all great because you you just did.
00:06:39
Speaker
I mean, they didn't want you to read anything. So you just did a repetitive like grammar and word drills like for literally for 12 years. So I feel like I had a better grasp on like writing and stuff. But then it didn't really matter because I got to college and I had like never written a paper.
00:06:56
Speaker
yeah and had to learn on the fly, like how to do all that, which was, I didn't do well. I was humbled pretty hard. So I went to a tiny, um, the, when I graduated, I went to like a small school, but it was a bigger school than I'd been to before, but there were only like 13 of us graduating.
00:07:15
Speaker
know, that's how small it was. um And that was bigger. Then I went
Transition from Homeschooling to College
00:07:21
Speaker
to you University of Alabama in Huntsville, which is an engineering school. And it was a wake up indeed, because I was like salutatorian in the little tiny church school and, you know, thought I was so smart.
00:07:34
Speaker
And then I got to Western Civ and had to do like a five page paper just in Western Civ, not even English class. And it was a rude awakening for me.
00:07:45
Speaker
ah Dude, that is that is so similar to like my experience too, like going into college and just realizing like, oh, I'm not remarkable at all.
00:07:55
Speaker
In fact, i might be behind. But you thought you were remarkable before that, didn't you? it was a big fish in a very small pond. yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:08:07
Speaker
It's funny how easy it is to stand out. I was homeschooled, Russell, ah but I was homeschooled from third grade until I graduated high school, and I had the opposite ah problem. Look, I didn't walk out of there being a not not a genius by any stretch, but I had no no comparisons at all. So I, by the time I was graduating high school, where I completely fucked off my senior year, I would like,
00:08:34
Speaker
go downstairs. Like I'd get up in the morning, go down, eat breakfast and be like, all right, mom, going upstairs to get my work done. And then I would go sleep on the couch for two hours and she wouldn't come up and check on me, which is crazy.
00:08:46
Speaker
And, uh, I, I, I really didn't do much of anything. And we had this like moment at the end of the year where my mom was like, freaking out about how she was going to put my transcripts together because she's going through all my work and there's literally nothing done.
00:09:00
Speaker
And I'm like, this is kind of your fault, actually. Like you didn't. I'm 17. I'm supposed to do this. You're actually supposed to be making sure I don't do this and you drop the ball. So but I turned I was like at this moment where I'm like, oh, I'm fucked. I'm probably the I'm probably really dumb.
00:09:18
Speaker
I have to be a massive idiot. I'm going to get like ruined in college. Thankfully, I started in community college and I was like, I walked in there but within the first week. I was like, I'm doing okay. Actually, like I can get, I'll get B's through community college and that's fine. Maybe an A, maybe a C. ah But I met some of the dumbest people I had ever met in my entire life, my first year of college.
00:09:44
Speaker
And it made me feel better about myself. So I i appreciated that. Well, and to to Sam's mom's credit, we should note at least her problems with addiction. She had a serious addiction to E-bombs world.
00:09:59
Speaker
She couldn't stop going on there. and She'll appreciate that if she listens to this.
00:10:08
Speaker
I see you got your sock. Dude, so how how crazy?
Cultural Observations and Clothing Trends
00:10:11
Speaker
ah i yeah so that makes ah that may That comes up in so many of our... I don't use i don't i never remember if it's during the recording or like before, but I almost every time get a comment on my avocado sock.
00:10:24
Speaker
I'm also going to address the background continuously until we get, ah ah because I don't remember if I do it ah before recording or after, but I am in a transitory state right now. So I have the worst looking background imaginable that I kind of half-assed thrown. No one listening to this is going to see that.
00:10:46
Speaker
ah They might. they might One of these days, we're going back to clips. and i don't Because of our release order of when we record, I don't know when it's going to be. So for at least the next like four weeks, I'm going to address it.
00:11:00
Speaker
So I know you don't like the Marvel socks, but I'm going to send you some skate socks, some stance or something like that. a and just bought some the other day. I want to get into long socks.
00:11:14
Speaker
I have too many of them. You've got to wear long socks, right? okay Yeah, so yeah. i really i've been I've been doing ankle socks for a long time, and I guess the kids make fun of that now, like hard.
00:11:25
Speaker
um and i like i don't know I don't know skate trends, but I do know that I – For like the last 10 years, it was like, yeah, where wear ankle socks and you and you look like ah ah regular person.
00:11:40
Speaker
um You know, the long socks were kind of for dads a little bit. You get that cool tan line halfway up your leg. ah But all I know now is that the kids rip on people who show their ankles. It's just not cool to show your ankles.
00:11:54
Speaker
And if you are under like 23, you're probably making fun of... Curity culture reversal. I was about to say, it's almost like the women that can't show their ankles. I mean, it's just come full circle.
00:12:08
Speaker
But is that the thing, right? That's long socks and no ankle showing? For sure. For sure. um I definitely grew up in that with, you know, women can't wear pants, that full hard on, tight, couldn't go to the movies. Like I said, just very, very. What did you have to wear?
00:12:32
Speaker
Like, did you have to dress up on a daily basis? i No, but I couldn't wear shorts. And, you know, we had the basketball team where you had to wear pants. You know, the stupid school where the the basketball team had to wear pants instead of wearing shorts.
00:12:48
Speaker
And, yeah, I had to wear a – They're just dunking on you so hard, too. Yeah, I did get dunked on hard once. um Sunday morning I had to wear jacket. Sunday night I had to wear a tie. Wednesday night I could just wear a collared shirt.
00:13:05
Speaker
But, yeah. alright Lacks, real lax. Was that wednesday night Wednesday night church or youth group? Church. And okay for a little bit of time, we had a separate youth service on Wednesday night, which when we had a cool youth director, which was better.
00:13:21
Speaker
But for a lot of years, it was just straight church. Cool youth pastor, huh? Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. imagine that's out of the ordinary. Yeah, definitely out of the ordinary.
00:13:33
Speaker
No, he was actually cool. He'd been a football player, big. yeah We were actually getting all these um local high school football players involved with our youth group. And for about two years, it was cool.
00:13:44
Speaker
But it was only for like two years. It wasn't cool before and it wasn't cool after. He got too cool and they gave him the ax. He left and became a pastor, but then he ended up leaving his wife and leaving the church community. and So, yeah, too cool.
00:14:03
Speaker
That's unusual. Oh, too cool even for his family. Wow. he must Apparently. paint like so So you said your parents were so you were already you were already a little kid by the time they decided to like pivot in that direction. I mean, were they in a real conservative church before that as much as you know?
00:14:27
Speaker
So they, we were in Chicago and they got involved with like Moody Bible Institute and Howells Anderson College and all that shit.
00:14:39
Speaker
And then he's like, i'm going to be a pastor and goes down to Tennessee and goes to seminary. And in fact, up on Mont Eagle Mountain, it's just right outside Chattanooga and past a little chapel. I was just up there this past weekend to see Bright Eyes and the caverns there.
00:14:54
Speaker
which was really cool. But yes, very much. It was really nice. It was a great show. um But yeah, then if
Family Dynamics and Missionary Decisions
00:15:02
Speaker
it just became small churches, hardcore.
00:15:06
Speaker
Then they left when I was like 16 to be missionaries in Africa. And I stayed behind because I wasn't going to Africa. Yeah. That's wild that they were like, you're good here? like we'll I mean, that's fine. You're good.
00:15:22
Speaker
we'll We'll just go and leave you. Who'd you stay with? And were you like, what are you guys doing? Or was it kind of expected? Like, was there any sort of like, I can't believe you guys are leaving me at 16 ah the they didn't want to go I think they didn't want that fight because they knew no way in hell did I want to go to Africa when I was 16.
00:15:42
Speaker
And think things they thought they were doing me a favor, but I stayed with the family in the church and then my senior year high school and then one year college. And then I was out. I was like 18. I'm like, I'm out of here.
00:15:56
Speaker
And then just it was on my own for years and years and years. That's wild. What was that family like? Were they pretty cool? I mean, you knew them pretty well beforehand. It is cool in that they had a son that has that married my older sister, and they were already about to get married. so Oh, yeah.
00:16:12
Speaker
It was okay. That wasn't bad. um They could have put me with someone that was not cool at all, and it could have been a very bad situation, which I probably would have just left.
00:16:23
Speaker
A total trunchbull situation. yeah, yeah. Yeah, those people always have open-door policies for other people's kids. They're like, sure, bring them over. In this house, we spank. and i Yeah, yeah. 17. It's though, you saying that, like...
00:16:40
Speaker
I remember being a kid. So like we had a family we were really close to and it was like, like, so my brothers were chronically ill. So my mom would go oh and be in the hospital with one of them for like a week or two.
00:16:54
Speaker
and bombs world. Then I would ah like the rest of us would go stay with this close family friends. And it was like, I remember a conversation about like,
00:17:06
Speaker
that like the car about if anything happened to like parents where would we go and it was like sure because and it came up because i had um a lot of my cousins and my parents family were catholic so they had like oh this is the godparent that's the godparent and i i was as a kid i'm like what is that we don't do that and uh my mom's like it's kind of a catholic thing and then we like we wentt And you usually pick a family member and this or that. So then my parents mentioned you would stay with these close family friends. And i remember, i don't know how we got on the topic, but it was just like...
00:17:42
Speaker
Like, yeah, these we we would totally be cool. Like these this family has authorization to spank you guys if you fall out of line. And I'm like, that would be so fucking weird. I knew that was weird when I was like eight.
00:17:53
Speaker
i was like, this is I don't feel like anyone other than my parents should be spanking me. I don't feel like really I don't love getting spanked anyway. ah But other people doing it is kind of like has a creepy vibe.
00:18:04
Speaker
Got the incredible paddle on the on the wall. with a little cut out. It says no good. No, we did have this giant, we had this giant paddle on the, just hanging on the wall, which wasn't really used, but I don't know if it was just a threat or, you know, I could use this.
00:18:24
Speaker
think I think I was like, huge jump yeah, like four feet long. That's pretty late for a last banking too. I lied about something and yeah. And then the reason why I get any more, cause I didn't care and they spanked me and I was like, all right, fine.
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, i can take some pain.
00:18:45
Speaker
That's not going to stop. They're not strong enough to hurt you anymore. Exactly. It's not. Yeah, dude. I don't care anymore. How cool would it be if you if you, like, your craft... Like, as a parent, you have to craft your own paddle, and that's kind of like forging your own sword, you know, before you go into battle or whatever.
00:19:03
Speaker
if If I was making one, I would put the little Whistlers from a Vortex football in mine. Just add little extra pain. More than that, Tom?
00:19:16
Speaker
more than that sounds The noise of that, you know, like the whistle, the wind of swinging is a almost scarier than the hit, you know? Yes. Yeah. The whiz bang.
00:19:29
Speaker
i I always had people tell me stories about how they're like, I would put, i put, I had like a book that I would put down my pants and I would
Religious Pressures and Hypocrisy
00:19:39
Speaker
just like, I felt like that was like, that's the evangelical Christian kid version of just like tall tales.
00:19:46
Speaker
Like we don't have, wheat there's no cool shit to like brag about. So you're like, I put a book in my pants as armor for getting spanked. Like your parents couldn't tell. Like, I feel like,
00:19:57
Speaker
if you're I don't care if you're open hand spanking or using a paddle. I think you could feel the difference between like landing on a book and landing on a... For sure. I think I think i i think i used to get a belt.
00:20:11
Speaker
um But yeah, you would hear that for sure. That one's rough. yeah The belt is a... that one's like mean It's essentially a whip. That one stings real bad.
00:20:23
Speaker
I never got a belt. I was a good kid. I just tried to avoid getting spankings. you know yeah I just tried to avoid it. i know we all And that's the problem with kids these days, right? They're not afraid of getting beat.
00:20:37
Speaker
and Right.
00:20:41
Speaker
Man. ah So you're growing up in the the church, super fundamentalist. You got to wear pants when you play basketball. like yeah i Were they pleated khakis that you were wearing during basketball? That wasn't the question I was going to go with, but I did need to stop there real quick.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah, know it old school with the sweatpants, the you know old school sweatpants. Not the kind that are fitted like thankful um yeah the old school baggy sweatpants.
00:21:09
Speaker
Yeah. Gooch gutters. Appropriate. Yeah. To just channel the sweat straight into your sneakers. Yeah. By the end of the game, everybody makes squishing noises going down the court.
00:21:22
Speaker
So here's here's a good story on as far as kind of how restricted we were. And I was talking to Andy and he's like, you definitely have to tell this one. um star wars came out and this is back when we had vhs or laser disc and blazer disc did not make it you know vh vhs did so we get star wars we go to watch it and back in the day if there was a curse word it was over we would hate it we'd watch stark movies and then it'd say damn m and we knew we all just like instantly went quiet because we knew my dad was all right all right we gotta turn this off
00:21:58
Speaker
It'd be excruciating. And we might try three different movies in a night, not watch a movie. And so we watched Star Wars. They didn't have plugged in online back then. They didn't have the old Guardian, the whole, you know, they didn't have any of that.
00:22:12
Speaker
And I think it was Obi-Wan Kenobi, good old Ben, that dropped the dam. and But my dad wanted to watch it so much. think it was eight. And we watched the entire movie with no sound.
00:22:26
Speaker
that was my first
00:22:32
Speaker
That was my first version of Star Wars. No sound. No sound, and I was obsessed with Star Wars. The silent film version? Yeah. and oh my god. That was my first watching. No subtitles then either.
00:22:44
Speaker
No subtitles. Even Silently, it's still the coolest movie you've seen, so... oh obviously I was obsessed with it after that. I mean, like over a hundred action figures and everything.
00:22:55
Speaker
But yeah. It must've been weird going to school when everyone's talking about it and they're like, my favorite part is when, and then you're like, Yeah, like, know what you you can't quote anything. All you do in like middle school or whatever old you are is like you you quote movies. Everyone just shows up to a space and just quotes lines from movies to val to like verify that they've seen it.
00:23:19
Speaker
And they're like, oh, what they would what part was what part was that that you like? What did they say? And you're like, I swear to fucking God I saw it. Shut up. Then Return of the Jedi came out and I hadn't watched it yet. and they're like, Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker, brother and sister. I'm like, no, they're not.
00:23:38
Speaker
They're not. They're lovers, you know, and because that wasn't revealed until Return of the Jedi. But I wasn't aware. And then when that came out, the whole bikini part, i they made leave the room. You know, I couldn't watch that.
00:23:54
Speaker
Nice. I love that. I remember when ah I was watching. I think it was it would have been Terminator. i think Terminator. Maybe Terminator 2. I forget which one it was.
00:24:06
Speaker
ah With my dad. ah And my my TV was in like one of those and cabinets that had the doors so you could like enclose it. That was a popular thing in the...
00:24:17
Speaker
You know, late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, we liked to put TVs away back then. Yeah. say i the set There was like that sex scene where you see Sarah Connor's boobs and my mom like ran over from the kitchen. Like probably the fastest I ever saw her run.
00:24:36
Speaker
Maybe the only time I have ever seen her run in my entire life. And it was to like... close the cabinet doors and stand in front of it. So, and then she would like occasionally peek back to like, make sure the scene was over before she like opened them and let the, let us continue watching the movie.
00:24:52
Speaker
And that made me feel very weird. She threw hot coffee in your face. just to it ah My dad used to try to like anticipate the swear words and then he would yell.
00:25:06
Speaker
but had to cover it to cover up the sound of it funny yeah but if there was like clearly a swear word coming he'd go oh
00:25:18
Speaker
that's really nice that's a nice touch i know the feeling and now i'm like it's funny because i'll like put movies on for my kids um who are seven and nine and they're like my mom was like oh yeah Oh, you watched that with them.
00:25:35
Speaker
It's like, I think it was this past Christmas, we watched um Christmas Vacation with them, which is just one of our classic Christmas movies that my wife and I watch every year. we're like, we should watch it with the kids this year.
00:25:46
Speaker
And it's just funny, like, when we mention it to, ah like, my parents, like, my mom's like, oh, Yeah. Okay. Like you could, she doesn't say that I love my mom. She's wonderful. She does not ever, she's never told me how to parent at all. And I know that's a huge problem for a lot of people.
00:26:05
Speaker
Um, so she's never gotten and involved in that, but you could just kind of tell like, Oh, there's there's some swearing in that. Right. Like there's, it's a and, uh, but my kids are funny about it. Cause they, it's like,
00:26:18
Speaker
And I remember the first time hearing my dad say, like, damn. And I was like, my brother and I looked each other like the rapture was happening. We were like, oh, this is done. We're done. Like, I don't, this is the end of days.
00:26:30
Speaker
um You know, it's hard to believe that any kids growing up with parents that aren't like, the kids aren't the ones who are like, Uh, you're not supposed to say that.
00:26:42
Speaker
Uh, so I think that's, uh, a marketed shift from my ah childhood. And I had to consciously work against that where you're like, I had this inclination to always be like, I don't think that's appropriate for the kids to watch. And my wife's like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, I don't know because I do this and I say all of that constantly.
00:27:01
Speaker
And my kids are going to find this someday and be so disappointed in me. It's just so ingrained in your head. to create latchkey at home. Yeah. Yeah. on the On the same note, me and my wife always watch that every year, Christmas Vacation. In fact, I just bought Christmas Vacation skate socks this past weekend because they were on sale.
00:27:21
Speaker
But i na with my I watched with my mom, happened to be here for Christmas. I'm like, well, we're watching it because that's what we do every year. And she watched the full version with not edited.
00:27:34
Speaker
And there was a few cringe moments where i was just like, oh, but she held on and made it through the whole movie somehow. She's at my house. Good for her. Good for Isn't it so funny? Because like, i know you got ah ah few years on us. It sucks. I hate being a full ass adult and still being like,
00:27:53
Speaker
I hope my parents don't get mad at me for saying this. Like, oh, it's so I hate it so much. I want to be like just my own person everywhere I go. And that's just doesn't feel like an option for me still at fucking 36. So here's the deal. Then maybe you'll get there.
00:28:13
Speaker
I'm 51. And when I've got a tattoo 49 right on my wrist, which means freedom to me. And I was going to therapy and finally got to the point where I was like, I can say and do whatever I want to do and freed it up and said everything to my mother that I wanted to say and laid it all out there. And no more do I restrict myself or censor myself anymore.
00:28:44
Speaker
ah what ah What freedom you found the Lord's.
00:28:51
Speaker
I was literally skating at the skate park and was like, I'm free. I'm going to get a tattoo. It was my first tattoo. My first tattoo right now. just says 49. And I hold it up to my mother and she hates it. And she knows it means freedom to me. And I'll be like, freedom.
00:29:07
Speaker
And she hates it. I wonder what I would say. Would I just be like, Would it be something benign like, I don't know if the Jews are causing the earthquakes?
00:29:20
Speaker
yeah
00:29:23
Speaker
Which would be the boldest thing you've ever said. Yeah. Might get rid of it. will I don't know. It's the way we were raised. And it is so hard to, um I can censor myself and curse or not curse in any different environment.
00:29:39
Speaker
I'm just so good at that because you learn that as you're being raised. Yeah. And um I can still do that with her, but I don't anymore. My father passed, so he's not here. But no, you're raised that way. And even, you know, 36, 51, whatever, you still feel like a child sometimes when you get around them.
00:29:58
Speaker
It's so ingrained in your head. You have to be a certain way. And it's hard to um come out of that and actually be like, this is who I am Here I am. Accept it or don't accept it.
00:30:11
Speaker
Well, it provides me a lot of comfort ah knowing that it took you till you were 49 to get there. I feel like I hope I hope to just get there at that point. So that that's a that's a helpful story for me. I'm like all right, I still get some time and I can work my way through these feelings that I have.
00:30:31
Speaker
See if you get it done by the time you're 42, you'll be an overachiever.
00:30:38
Speaker
What was ah what was like so the church experience, you know, aside from your, you know, your school and stuff like that, like I i think ah I'm always interested in like what level of like high pressure evangelism was put on kids and like how much pressure was there to to speak or to not speak or to come forward or to stand up or sit down.
Evangelism and Personal Beliefs
00:31:02
Speaker
And like, how did you handle that type of stuff?
00:31:05
Speaker
So there was lots of that, you know, you do youth group stuff and, and then you go on to camp and then they want come back and give your testimony of what happened. And I never really bought in you know, i just was never really bought in and not fake shit and say stuff. And just to try to, cause my dad was the pastor. So,
00:31:27
Speaker
There was a lot of pressure on me to be a certain way. And when I was in 10th, 11th, 12th, I went to a school that was not at our church. it was at a different church. And then he would come speak in chapel and they, you know, they bow your head and raise your hand if you want to do this or this or this. And I'd be sitting next to my peers and,
00:31:49
Speaker
And I've talked to them about that recently in the last couple of years to a number of them, um how I felt like such a fucking hypocrite that my dad's looking at me and I'm raising my hand, even though i have no belief on that or any intention to do any action.
00:32:08
Speaker
And it was a horrible, horrible situation for me. And it made me feel really bad. Yeah, I feel like I kind of had similar sorts of things. I think I really wanted to.
00:32:19
Speaker
I really wanted to be bought in. and I think it was one of those things where it was because ah for for us, it was, you know, the Bible was inerrant. And it was more like memorizing facts and dogma than it was actually like, you know, trying to interact with it and think through it and, you know, think about how it applies to your life and stuff like that. It was just kind of like, well, these are the rules and, you know, ah memorize the all these facts about who Christ was and what happened in old in the Old Testament. Memorize things.
00:32:52
Speaker
you know, list of answers that you could someday give if you ever found yourself in a situation where you're talking to someone who believes in evolution or something like that.
00:33:03
Speaker
But like, and I went through all those hurdles and I felt really like, um, I felt like I, I wanted to believe and I wanted to buy in and stuff, but I just don't think I ever had like any sort of emotional connection to it.
00:33:21
Speaker
It was just sort of like, it was guilt and peer pressure and, you know, a lot of which is self-inflicted. It's not anybody else's fault, really. It's just, I just never really felt like I was getting the same experience out of it that the people around me were.
00:33:37
Speaker
i kind of feel the same way. I even tried again when I was like 22 and, you know, tried to buy because I felt like I should. And ah just never felt like I made connections, like I belonged. Like it just never seemed right to me. And I would try and but it wasn't genuine.
00:33:58
Speaker
i mean, I was trying to be genuine, but it never seemed right. And and then it never lasted, you know, so I can understand that. trying to, because that's what they tell you. I mean, this is what's right. This is how it should be. This is what you're supposed to do. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to try to do this, but it just never felt right.
00:34:20
Speaker
It's kind of like, uh, there's like, there's, actions and then there's results and they kind of tell you like, Hey, if you don't have the results, just worry about going, doing the action, you know, like go through the motion, do the right things, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And, and like that feeling of, of sincerity and comfort and stuff will naturally come, but it just doesn't.
00:34:48
Speaker
Really? It never came me. And what's frustrating about that messaging is that it, but exactly. If it didn't cover, it what's frustrating about that messaging is that if based on that belief, if you dip, it's always because you didn't stay in it long enough. Like you didn't like, Oh, but you probably bounced right before you were on the other side of that. Like that messaging. So infuriating because they, they'll never be able, they'll,
00:35:19
Speaker
They never have to concede that they were wrong when it didn't work for you. It's always because you didn't stay long enough, try hard enough. Like they can always rationalize it that way.
00:35:30
Speaker
And that's so, it's just so dismissive and frustrating. And it's a mindset that then you always feel guilty. feel like you're not good enough. You feel like, why does it work for everybody else? Why is this not working for me? What's wrong with me? Why can't I get this?
00:35:48
Speaker
um I want to be accepted. I want to be part of it all, but it just didn't click with me and didn't make sense. And you can't make yourself believe something that you don't believe. o A hundred percent.
00:36:00
Speaker
ah One of the things that's like that current, like, Theobrogin online community thing going on where it's like, and and Casey, I can even think back to, I probably don't have to get into much detail before the same people come to your mind of like people we were in college with that. When you thought about like their life and the way that they operate, you're like,
00:36:25
Speaker
You don't live like you care about any of this, but you're dogmatically committed to it. And you just are like, that's another lane that really baffles me, ah where it almost feels like more an academic endeavor, ah despite its lack of academic criticism. I think that it's just like...
00:36:45
Speaker
the amount of people that I've interacted with in church circles with males who are not emotionally connected to it for several reasons related to why men probably don't emotionally connect to a lot of things, uh, given our, the culture of church and things like that.
00:37:04
Speaker
Um, in masculinity in this country over the past couple hundred years. But you just go, ah you, nothing about your life. This is just an argument for you. This is just like a way for you to be right about something and dismiss people in staying. a late Like I don't, there were, the so they're the people that always worked for emotionally and they felt it. But I feel like I also knew plenty of people who were like, just conceded to the idea that it was correct. Yeah.
00:37:33
Speaker
despite any emotional connection to it and any, ah and it was always just like an argument for the sake of like winning something. I do feel like there's a lot of that. I'm right. You're wrong.
00:37:46
Speaker
That's all there is to it. lot of that. Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
I'm kind of envious of the people who have that like it's like a drive by like country song version of Christianity where it's like ah have you ever heard that song Red Dirt Road?
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah. I forget who sings it, but he's singing about this red dirt road that, ah you know, was that he grew up on and stuff and all these like pivotal life moments happen. And he's like, he's like, where I wrecked my first car.
00:38:17
Speaker
where I found Jesus, where I blah, blah, blah. And it's like, just like this little sub note. It's like their Christianity exists in this, like, it's like this lowercase subtext in the rest of their life and worldview.
00:38:31
Speaker
And like, that seems to be enough. Like they don't really feel any need to go any further with it. And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's, that seems like kind of the way to go. I don't know, man. That's a,
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah, I um so much of what you're saying kind of like that. It's very similar to how I felt like growing up. Dude, going back to church as an older person, you know, you leave, you know, you get out of that college range because there's a there's youth group and there's all this stuff geared towards the kids.
00:39:05
Speaker
And then there's college group and stuff, which is kind of a scaled down version of it. And then like you leave that college group age range and there's nothing at a lot of places. It's just, well, you know, we have a singles group. Oh, but you're married. So um you're going to Sunday school with the 60 year old guy now.
00:39:26
Speaker
And like it's so depressing because it's like you still feel that need to like connect with it. and to and you feel like the impulse to to try hard to find that.
00:39:39
Speaker
But like nobody's rolling out the red carpet for you anymore. Like you're you're a an adult now. It's on you figure out how to make this work.
00:39:50
Speaker
I've got a friend of mine right now and we've had lots of conversations about what he believes, what I believe. And we're both on the same page as far as we don't really believe the Bible is true.
00:40:02
Speaker
And um he's going to church. And I was like, he was at my house last week. And I was like, dude, what, what, what, I don't understand. And basically came down. It's just a social thing for him.
00:40:15
Speaker
He's going there because there's some companionship and, But he doesn't believe anything they're saying. It's just a social thing. Which is okay. I feel like a rat him problem. yeah I didn't say his name. I feel like ah is when you can't be honest about that. Cause I honestly wouldn't, I'd have less of a problem with church communities and the way that they operate. If you didn't feel like you didn't belong, if you admitted that, right? Like if you could just be like, look, I i like you guys. I think we're morally aligned. I agree with a lot
00:40:56
Speaker
of you on a lot of things. We just believe a little bit different, but this works and I appreciate it. Like, cool. I would have like so little problem in that, but so there it's rare that you could find a church where that would be like, if you got out, it is not believing They wouldn't then ah they wouldn't make it their mission to try to get you to admit that they're correct versus like over all that time that they've known you, they've aligned in principle and ideals and um had a connection outside of when that wasn't ah when that wasn't a factor.
00:41:32
Speaker
And um I think that's so. That's what's interesting. Like, would that person find that it kind of accepts, and maybe they would, um but would that person find that, are they open about that in their community or do they feel like they have to keep it under wraps a little bit?
00:41:48
Speaker
um I think he probably keeps it under wraps and pretends um for sure. Yeah. because Which could only work for so long, right? For some people, I guess, not for me, but yeah, it can only last that long. You got to be yourself or- Granted, I spent years and years and years not being my true self and lying. And I even told my mom, like, when went to PCC, I'm like, basically, they just turn taught me how to lie.
00:42:15
Speaker
um Or I went bowling a lot when I was in high school, quote unquote, bowling when I was at the movies when I wasn't supposed to be. You know, but you're just already like lying, lying, lying. lying ah Which is not a good mindset. And it becomes second nature. Yeah. Like it's conditioning you to be that way. And they, you know, they want to put the onus on you because you broke one of the 10 commandments. But really it's like you created a pressure cooker scenario where there is no good outcome here.
00:42:45
Speaker
And I did have that conversation with my mom in the last six months. And I was like, I told her that. And she's like, no, you're just breaking the rules in line. And I'm like, well, it just kind of made me do it, you know.
00:42:57
Speaker
ah So Russell, the the choice to go to PCC, I think was, ah is really interesting. um Cause you had talked about ah kind of trying to get back into Christianity um for the sake of others.
00:43:13
Speaker
um What, what was the decision around going to
Experiences at Pensacola Christian College
00:43:18
Speaker
PCC like? And and yeah, how'd you end up there? So I was just, i was bartending. i wasn't doing a lot. Yeah.
00:43:24
Speaker
I dropped out of a you the local university and um my parents had came back from Africa and they said, your little sister's going to school in Florida. why don't you go?
00:43:36
Speaker
and I was like, eh, I'm not really doing anything. Might as well. Didn't know all the ramifications of it. And... get down there, you don't you don't get the rule book until you get down there, the full rule book. like You have the little bit of rules, but then you get it all.
00:43:51
Speaker
And I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. And literally the very first Sunday, i like to read the Sunday newspaper and you can't, you have to scan out, like you're in a fenced in environment and you have to scan out. Like dog. Pretty much exactly. Like a prisoner.
00:44:11
Speaker
This is basically what it is, but you have to scan out to go anywhere. and I'm like, I just want to run up here to the Circle K and get a newspaper. and they're like, you only scan out to go to restaurants.
00:44:22
Speaker
And I'm like well, I've already eaten at the cafeteria. I don't need food. I just want a newspaper to sit in my dorm room and read the newspaper. And like, you can't do that. I'm like, so you're basically telling me you want me to lie you want me to lie to you and say I'm going to Burger King so can get a newspaper. And they just kind of like stared at me.
00:44:43
Speaker
And I scanned the card and was like, i'm going to Burger King, even though I'd already told him I've already eaten. But that was just like the initial thing of like this environment. You're going to be a liar and a sneak um to do normal everyday things that people should be able to do.
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like ah I heard some stories about that, which it's so funny when you think about the fact that like these aren't. it's It's not 16-year-olds anymore. like You're a 22-year-old guy. You're ah an adult man.
00:45:16
Speaker
you could You could be drafted into military service and they're like, well, you're not permitted to leave campus to purchase a newspaper. you know it's It's so insane the kind of restrictions they try to impose. mean, what their...
00:45:32
Speaker
i mean what was there Do you remember what the pitch was on why the rules were so strict? I mean, well i'm I'm sure it's pretty standard stuff, but like what was the what was the reasoning that they gave for insane rules like that?
00:45:46
Speaker
I mean, I think the pitch is that they say you all these parents are entrusting us with their young children, not young children, but young adults, I guess, ah to still keep that safe environment around them.
00:46:03
Speaker
um That would be the pitch. that That's what they would say. That's crazy because there's like I bet politically they lean towards like freedom and making your own choices and not bending to the will of others. But in school, ah how dare they?
00:46:22
Speaker
Yeah, is it was so odd. It was ah shocking to me. And pretty much every semester I'd skip three classes, which couldn't skip a class.
00:46:33
Speaker
It's 25 demerits. You get 75 demerits, then you're campused, which means you cannot leave campus. And I left campus so many times laying in the back of a pickup truck with a cover over it.
00:46:45
Speaker
so I could sneak out to go watch a movie or whatever. And did that repeatedly just to sneak in through the guard gate.
00:46:55
Speaker
it's so nuts they literally make being a person impossible and i it's funny because we got so like bent out of shape like liberty like you couldn't see r-rated movies you couldn't like have any pdas or any physical contact with the opposite sex um like it was like kind of typical christian college stuff that like is wild to the rest of the world but then like even we were like good i think it was bob jones that ah the everyone talked about the colored walkways. i don't know if that was really true.
00:47:25
Speaker
It is true. It's a cola that people would talk about that with. It is true. That was Pensacola. No, it's true. Um, and Bob Jones, cause I went up there for, um, uh, uh, competition, like, you know, you win Bible quizzing competition or whatever. And, and Bob Jones did have the, uh, colored sidewalks.
00:47:47
Speaker
That's so wild. That's nuts. Yeah. It's just such a wild level of fundamental. i mean, I know like it's in the name of the world you grew up in, ah and ah independent fundamentalist Baptist, but it's ah it's, it's such a weird badge of honor to be proud of. Like, what are you doing with different color sidewalks, you know?
00:48:07
Speaker
And you couldn't even be like outside after dusk with someone of the ah opposite sex. So my little sister was going to school there and her and I'd be out there chatting. And then some,
00:48:18
Speaker
some over excited dorm leader, whatever you want to call it, would come up and try to challenge me. And and just be like, fuck off.
00:48:32
Speaker
Dude, I remember ah my my level of like where I learned about Pensacola was like, there was a couple of things where it like touched my realm up there, but like our, so our little school for a while, i probably, when I was in like six, seventh and eighth grade, something like that, um, Pensacola sent like, uh, enrollment reps out to like our school and they did,
00:49:03
Speaker
Basically like a big pitch meeting to all of us on coming to Pensacola. And like, I remember the guy, I don't remember what the analogy was that he used, but I remember like he had this whole kind of like routine worked out where he like set up a tent and,
00:49:21
Speaker
And had like all these like camping supplies and stuff and something, it was something to do with like, uh, you know, being equipped to be a Christian in the real world. And I don't know if in this example, like pence PCC was like shields or something where you buy your tent or what whatever. It was something like that. But I remember like this guy in a, in like an Oxford shirt and and a tie and like, you know,
00:49:48
Speaker
pants pulled way up is like crawling around in and out of this tent like an overexcited like he's okay so i got my tent i got my fire supplies man what's next i got bla it and then they're like you know what pcc we it's it's not all about academics you know we like to we like to cut up a little bit here and there we we we actually we have a two-lane bowling alley And, you know, it's open two nights a week as long as there's no women around.
00:50:17
Speaker
yeah yeah we We got in trouble one day. They had the bowling alley. They did have the bowling alley and they had a lot of nice facilities, skating, ice skating rink and stuff like that. But it was so much that ah they would do the Christmas lights ah unveiling, like the big night and everyone would be out there singing Christmas carols and stuff.
00:50:39
Speaker
We were just trying to find ways to amuse ourselves and singing really, really, really loud. And we had people follow us trying to give us demerits for singing loud.
00:50:51
Speaker
ah being but but You had to find things to amuse yourself. and We would literally just go to the library. love that level. We would go to the library and fill up the elevator and then just never get out of it.
00:51:06
Speaker
And so we'd ride up and down and people push the button and it would always be full.
00:51:12
Speaker
or we We would go to the commons and then they'd have someone that's supposed to be the monitor or whatever. And we'd have a group of about 15 and we would just stay opposite of the room of them.
00:51:25
Speaker
So as they moved, our whole group would move. So they were always opposite the room. and we knew we were just fucking with them so bad. They wanted to know what was going on with these people.
00:51:37
Speaker
But you had to find stupid stuff to beat yourself. love that.
00:51:42
Speaker
That's Christian hijinks. Yeah. That's what you have to do in those scenarios. You're like, you just like you just find the weirdest ways. Like, i mean, honestly, and it it, it does translate often into like really like,
00:51:58
Speaker
funny things like the idea of filling an elevator and no one getting off of it is is really funny and that's not something you would come up with under a lot of like in a lot of other contexts um or just staying away from the dorm leader the ra the whatever the person was where you're like it is eight It does, because even at Liberty, I remember like the like the rules creating forms of comedy that were like they were absurd in a way, but fell within the rules. And it was like, yeah i don't know. it does It does create content that I don't think might come out of like other types of institutions.
00:52:42
Speaker
what but What happens is... it also like... ahead. Oh, sorry. It's a yeah, it's it also creates like ah that the type of like ah concentration camp guard RAs that yell at you for singing too loud, which is hilarious to think about like those two guys just like parked in their dorm room. One of them's like Milton.
00:53:06
Speaker
you ah Do you hear that? Like, I think I do, Reginald. It sounds like mirth. Let's go put a stop to it. Pretty much, for sure. Gung-ho. Get a little power.
00:53:19
Speaker
Look at my badge.
00:53:23
Speaker
So you didn't last too long, it sounds. I only lasted a year and a half. And um what happened was my parents were gone still in Africa. So I didn't really have a home landing spot.
00:53:34
Speaker
And so one summer, me and two friends were like, let's get an apartment in in Pensacola and just stay here for the summer. And we told everyone, they're like, what are you guys doing for the summer? i' like, we're ah counselors at Camp Sunshine.
00:53:48
Speaker
And they're like, what? We don't know about that camp. And I'm like, yeah, we're we're we're counselors at Camp Sunshine for the summer. And we just got an apartment. And then it became time to go back. And I just paced around and paced around and paced around. And my roommate was like, if you're so unhappy, why would you go back? And was like, you're right. And I went straight up there and unenrolled. that's how I got to Pensacola.
00:54:13
Speaker
you You had the sudden realization that you're an adult and no one can make you I know. Isn't that sad? because in it But then I was like 23. Yeah. yeah But you it's so ingrained in you that it's hard to push back sometimes. Yeah.
00:54:29
Speaker
It really is. You just kind of fall in line. and And look, let's be clear, like outside of Christianity, that's what people do. Like you have parents who are doctors, generations of doctors, and you're like, I got to be a doctor. And then you realize that like 24, that you can do whatever you want. That happens with like a lot of people in a lot of context. So it's not, it's not just a Christian thing. It puts us in weirder situations, certainly than like the rest of Humanity who's trying to follow that. In that situation, you're on a collision course with success.
00:55:03
Speaker
Right, right, right. Instead of spending four years Pensacola College and realizing that you don't even have a degree. yeah That's right. I forgot PCC was unaccredited. Unaccredited. my God. That's hilarious.
00:55:19
Speaker
It's like only recognized by Focus on the Family and MyPillow. Those are the two companies you can work for. Yeah.
00:55:32
Speaker
So after that, you, uh, you kind of just realized that this isn't, you know, do when do you accept that like this, this isn't for you despite your best efforts? So a year and a half there. And i was like, I'm not going back. And, um,
00:55:47
Speaker
So I was like 30, you know, i was not involved with church, anything like that, had no desire. And then when I turned 30, I was like, let me give this one more shot again. And that one really gave it the old college strike.
00:56:04
Speaker
I tried, you know, it part of it's like, you know, being, I'm the black sheep of the family. I've always been, I went, I went like two years without speaking to my parents when, before I went to PCC, like I was shunned. And, um, you know, so part of it is you want to be accepted by your family. You want your dad's approval. You want your mother's approval. And, um, and you'll do things out of the ordinary to try to get that.
00:56:30
Speaker
Um, so yeah. Yeah, so I gave it one more try, and then that was it. But I didn't really totally... At that point, is like any of your... Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
00:56:43
Speaker
um I still tried. Like, over years, I went to different... Went to all different denominations, Anglican, like even just weird churches and ringing bells and, you know, trying to find that connection...
00:57:00
Speaker
if it's real and I just never could find it. And then about, well, about 2016 with the elections, ah everyone that had my parents and other people ah do right to the stars fall. The end doesn't justify the means.
00:57:19
Speaker
um All these things that I've been ingrained in my head and then they went opposite of that. And then I was like, well, okay, maybe none of this is true at all, you know?
00:57:32
Speaker
So that's when I really, that's when I really started. That was such a catalyst. That was such a catalyst for so many people were like, even if you were just, it was benign to you. um it That was a turn where you started looking at it.
00:57:48
Speaker
If, if you were in it, you were like, I don't know. Or if you were like, out of it but not too bitter or angry you're like are these people objectively like opposed to me like is this not to say not to be hyper like too hyperbolic but like it went from being neutral to actively almost being an enemy um not in a personal sense but ideologically it's opposed completely yeah for sure um I always, throughout the years, you know, I was like, all right, these people are genuine. i don't agree with them, but their heart's in the right place. It's all good. And then when all that started happening, um it just made me really start to dig in and look at what is this all about?
00:58:36
Speaker
Yeah. So what, um what we could do a little bit. Pivot, I mean, fill in the gaps where you want um on the way here. But you're ah you've been a skater for, I'm guessing, quite some time at this point.
00:58:54
Speaker
A countercultural boy. um you know So how much of that like that world that you were in there and then you know kind of like let's bridge some gaps to – upward intuition, um how you ended up drifting in that direction um in between like saying, i'm I'm kind of done with this as a whole with the 2016 election versus where you're at now.
00:59:23
Speaker
what's What's some things that have been like, they brought you to where you are now? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I started skating when I was, I don't know,
Tragedy and Loss of a Son
00:59:32
Speaker
10, 12. And, uh, my, my big moment, my album was licensed deal. Beastie boys came out when I was 12 and that turned me in a different direction. But, um,
00:59:42
Speaker
Yes. So me my, I have a, a, a one child, Avery that, uh, we skated together. He had a skateboard since he was born. And, um, uh, basically my life centered around, i was his roadie and, he liked to play music. He liked to skate, whatever he wanted to do I was his, his roadie where I facilitated it. We had shows at the house and he was skating like 25 hours a week. And, um, then,
01:00:11
Speaker
In about a week and a half, it'll be two years. He was came home. I'm four blocks from the skate park, four blocks from the skate shop. And, uh, he really wasn't supposed to be down there, but he was on a skateboard and got hit by a car. And, uh, two days later he was gone.
01:00:29
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, gut punch right there for sure. Um, it's my only child and, uh, Yeah, it was devastating.
01:00:40
Speaker
I'd started going to therapy about six months before. I wanted be a better father. I wanted to be a better husband. And ah so I was in the best state of my mind I really had ever been in with the freedom and being able to work through some of the, you know, shit of how I'd been, how I'd grown up and the guilt and all that. And so I was in a good place.
01:01:01
Speaker
And um otherwise, i don't know. I might've burned down my house. I might've, who knows. And, uh, so yeah I mean, I, I can't imagine what that was like.
01:01:16
Speaker
So then where do you go from there? And, um, I just started
Volunteering and Community Impact
01:01:21
Speaker
volunteering. It's things that, um, he and I had in common. So it's, it's, uh, uh, comforting for me to me.
01:01:28
Speaker
um It taxes me. I'm not going to lie. We'll have an event and I'm so amped. And then when it's over, i kind of crash. um I'm getting better at it. But it's just really made me. um I know Andy talked about it a little bit, but um every day I try to do something positive to impact somebody else's life.
01:01:51
Speaker
Um, it's made me much more about not myself. I've learned that everybody has a tragedy story and, um, it's just out there and then you can make your decision. what are you going to do? Are you going to shut down? Are you going to try to do positive things? And so that's just my mindset.
01:02:09
Speaker
I'm trying to do as much as I can for, um, others other people that have kids and the kids that are still here and so we're building uh safe skate spots uh across the different parks and um doing different like skate clinics and um after hours for kids with tutoring and skating and uh just really trying to um put myself into bettering the community and
01:02:42
Speaker
not making it a wasted thing. Man, I, I, I mean, I, I don't even know how explain ah how much I admire you in the the direction that you directed your pain there because I don't, I mean, I mean, I mean, it's even hard for me to talk about because, you know, and I'm sure you experience this when you, when you share your story, it's like,
01:03:11
Speaker
you know, I immediately want to go and be like, Oh, I can't as a father X, Y, and Z. And then you go, Oh, I don't want to, I don't want to go there. Cause that feels challenging. Like I, I, I imagine that that creates moments where do you, do you find that it can be hard for people to be themselves? Like what in talking about like their journeys,
01:03:33
Speaker
um, in those situations or or is that hard for you even, is it hard for you to ah when, when people talk about, you know, those things, their, their parenthood journeys or something like that?
01:03:46
Speaker
So the funny thing is, um I think a lot of people think that I don't want to be around children like because it'll make me sad or whatever. And it's it's actually the opposite, but I find myself a lot of times meeting,
01:04:00
Speaker
say someone like you that has children and, um, then they hear the story and it's almost me comforting them versus them comforting me. I mean, cause I've dealt with it.
01:04:13
Speaker
I mean, I'm, you'd never fully deal with it. I mean, it's a daily thing, but I'll meet someone and their eyes are tearing up and almost like, Oh, it's okay.
01:04:25
Speaker
Um, I must be more comforting them than, than the other way around. But, uh, It's just, I want his name to continue and life's short. and And just with being on here, and I don't need religion to make me a moral person. I don't need religion to make me want to be a good to people.
01:04:51
Speaker
um And I feel like I'm on that journey of trying to possibly improve pack the community and especially with youth. That's the main, the main goal.
01:05:04
Speaker
When we were texting a couple of days ago, one of the things that came up with some of the difficulties with like responses to um to this, yeah, ah to you after you lost your son from like the Christian world um and some of those like platitudes that really fall short that most of our are accustomed to. um What like just, I guess, speak to that to whatever direct, whatever capacity you want, because I know that that is, that is something that a lot of people who have suffered loss, um,
01:05:43
Speaker
deal with from if they have a connection to Christian communities and how difficult that can make some of the healing process. Um, so I just kind of want to hear you say your piece on that.
01:05:55
Speaker
So it was pretty interesting at the hospital. Um, we were there for what happened on a Friday and then Saturday, Sunday, two days he was gone, but, um, the Baptists came and prayed with me.
01:06:12
Speaker
And cause that was my father's friends. And then, the Catholic priest and the Anglican priest came in together wearing their black and white. They met in the hallway and they came in and prayed.
01:06:25
Speaker
And then, you know, my friends, uh, prayer team came in like six of them with music and they prayed. And then, Finally, the chaplain came in later and i was like, i've I've had enough, man. i just don't really need any more prayer.
01:06:41
Speaker
I didn't pray once at the hospital. You know, I don't know. it just, I don't believe. So I wasn't praying. You know, they talk about foxholes and desperation. i mean, i don't know how more desperate you can get than it's your only child, is he going live or die And ah I just...
01:07:00
Speaker
don't believe. And so i didn't go in that area. i didn't, I didn't do a Hail Mary. I didn't ah do any of that. And, but with my father, he's, he knows people all over the place and all these people from different countries were saying they were praying and all these people that devote their life to God. And that's all they're about. And they're like, please God, won't you help this kid?
01:07:26
Speaker
And what I got out of that was one either, God's a little bit of an asshole if he won't respond to all these people that dedicate their lives to him or he doesn't exist.
01:07:40
Speaker
And so that's kind of how I walked out of there. Yeah, it's really hard to.
01:07:48
Speaker
It's it's tough in those situations because it's like you do feel like a you feel like an obligation to humor people with their coping mechanism, you know, and sometimes their coping mechanism is to you know, kind of assert themselves into some sort of like healing and deliverance role with the person who's actually kind of the victim in the situation.
01:08:19
Speaker
And, know, I don't know. It's tough to know. Like there is a point there where it's like, all right, I, I, I can't go through the motions with you on this anymore.
01:08:30
Speaker
my grandma passed away, back probably four months ago. And I went over, you know, the night that she passed away, I went over to my grandpa's house and just sat with him and, you know, we chatting and whatnot. And, um,
01:08:47
Speaker
the guy who is like our company, our company has a chaplain and uh, he, he showed up, you know, kind of out of nowhere, you know, pretty late at night.
01:08:59
Speaker
And he wanted to, you know, he sat with us and then, uh, you know, he prayed with my grandpa and my grandpa is not like a religious guy, really. i would say he has some sort of Christian faith, but it's always like been a quiet version of it, you know?
01:09:15
Speaker
And, you know, in that situation, it's like, this really isn't about me. This is about comforting my, grief you know, we're all here to comfort my grandpa. And like, I'm more than happy to go through the motions of this, you know, if it makes him feel better, if it's comforting to him and stuff. But it's got to be such a weird situation when like you're the person at the center of everything And you just don't want to do that. But people seem like insistent on it, like it's medicine you need to take.
01:09:47
Speaker
You know, it's not ah it's not necessarily with bad intention or anything. It's just I don't i don't know it It seems like in those moments, that's it's kind of your time to decide what you want and what you need and and how far you're willing to go with all that stuff, you know?
01:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense in that, um you know, there was so much from all over the world. had people from skate shops in Germany and and all my parents, friends. My dad was a missionary Africa. He'd been all over the world. There was all these people sending me these things from we're praying for you. There's thoughts, prayers, and i didn't even open any of the ones that were – just religious because it's just going to be the same message over and over prayer and thoughts for you, which really does nothing for you.
01:10:36
Speaker
um You always see that after a school shooting and they're like, oh, it's so bad, but prayer and thoughts. And half the people didn't even pray or give a thought probably.
01:10:47
Speaker
But yeah I said I'd pray for a lot of people at one point in my life and I always forgot. Oops. Yeah, for sure. um And I don't know if I got in on the last recording. if I don't know what you guys added or not. But um it just I walked out of there with the whole thought process of all these people that are dedicated their life to God.
01:11:11
Speaker
They serve Him. They worship Him. They think He's the greatest thing in the world. And they're all begging to help out this 11-year-old kid. And if God's all powerful and he could do whatever he wants and he chooses not to throw a bone to all these people that are begging him, then i found God to be a little bit of an asshole or that he doesn't exist.
01:11:33
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. That's what gets, it does. It gets so challenging because there's, and it's funny because even within Christianity, there's different ways that people look at prayer. Like, like there's, um,
01:11:50
Speaker
Not that you couldn't find that version of it in the Bible where you just beg God for shit and sometimes God shows up. ah Sometimes God doesn't. Or sometimes God tells you one thing and then does the other. There's some instances that in the Bible too. But um I think it's what's... i Even in my most Christian moments, I think I really struggled with with the prayer concept um of like...
01:12:16
Speaker
I would pray a lot and I would pray for a lot of things and I would, you know, you never really knew what, what God's hand was in all that. And, yeah,
01:12:30
Speaker
There was always something that felt so weird for me telling people I'd pray for things that they were going through um as a sort of platitude.
01:12:42
Speaker
And then you would come across people who would look at prayer as like more of a contemplative thing that was for their own centering and in peace of mind. And I don't know, it is it's tough. Like when you when you think of this idea of petitioning God for things, when you look at, you know, just all the tragedies that,
01:12:59
Speaker
go on around the world. It's like, it's just, it really is hard to believe that a, a that the God that we were told existed in answered prayers, um, had any sort of relevancy left.
01:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And ah you you always get the – here's what they always say. um Well, he's either saying no or yes or wait or it's always – well, it's according to God's plan. It doesn't matter what it is. It's according to God's plan. All the options. How did all of this impact your – relationship to your wife um and and you guys.
01:13:50
Speaker
I mean, certainly that's tough. I mean, if you look at the stats, when you have a child die, Most marriages don't survive it. Most don't. And I totally i totally get why.
01:14:04
Speaker
And we approached it completely different. um I dove into it. Like I'll talk about Avery all day long, every day. And my wife for, you know, a year and a half or so, she didn't want to talk about him or, you know, look at pictures or read any of the notes or anything like that. So we handled it totally different, but we,
01:14:26
Speaker
respected each other's way of grieving, I guess. Yeah. And, um, so it's worked and, and, and now she's come around and stuff. I mean, where he got hit is three blocks from my house. So I go there all the time.
01:14:41
Speaker
Um, she's been there like twice, but, uh, she's come out of it and, and, uh, been much better. Um,
01:14:53
Speaker
Lately, but do it definitely was a struggle for sure. i can't imagine. Was there ever um any, like I don't, this is probably a a terrible or ridiculous word to use, but a common one, a sense of a quote unquote, like that closure of like,
01:15:15
Speaker
oh what happened? Who did it? Did it, what did that matter to you? Um, I know people can get like stuck in these feedback loops of like wanting to, uh,
01:15:27
Speaker
oh, who did it? Let's follow this to the fullest extent of the law. Stuff like that. like Was it a hit and run? um what What was the scenario there? And and and how did that impact you in the way that you processed and and grieved?
Reflections on Son's Accident
01:15:40
Speaker
So, um for sure. I mean, that that was... I'm not an attorney you know doing research um because you do just want to know. And then he left the skate shop, which was one block from where he got hit. And I have all the...
01:15:56
Speaker
video of him leaving that and skating away and then, you know, 10 minutes later getting hit. But, um, ended up being a teacher from a school. Um, she didn't do anything wrong.
01:16:09
Speaker
So I have nobody to be angry at if it had been like a, um, drunk driver or something like that. i might be stalking him at his house, you know, but, uh,
01:16:21
Speaker
There's no one to blame. And it devastated her life. She had young children. She quit going to church. She didn't finish out the school year. We've had one conversation via text. I just want to know the details, but I know a lot of the details. It'd be easier to...
01:16:42
Speaker
I don't know if it's easier or not, if I would had someone to be angry at, but I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm not mad. It's a horrible accident. Obviously I wish did not happen, but. um Yeah. I mean, dude, I think that, I mean, the anger is something that you can see consume people constantly.
01:17:01
Speaker
ah Like, I mean, I think I hear what you're saying with like this idea of like a direction to point that anger and the injustice and the unfairness of it all.
01:17:12
Speaker
But then you look at the way that, you know, anger can really consume and ruin you. ah To hear you talk about not feeling that way, I think is beautiful. And I think it speaks to what you've already said of like the direction that you've pointed your life in the way that you want to.
01:17:32
Speaker
be there for others and youth and and and and invest in the world to make it a more beautiful place despite its unforgiving nature in a lot of ways i think um so maybe even if there was someone to be angry at that just wouldn't be where you you found yourself but either way i think you know i think Hearing the way you talk about it is really beautiful and life-giving and has, it has clearly brought life and, and, and comfort and purpose to a lot of, to a lot of people based on what I know about what upward intuition is doing.
01:18:10
Speaker
So I, I, I mean, I had just can't even tell you how much I, I appreciate and just respect and and respect you as a, as a human and as a ah person who's doing what they can to, to make the world a better place, despite the fact that it's been unfair to you.
01:18:32
Speaker
So kind of interesting on that, ah that, uh,
01:18:37
Speaker
that tangent. Um, when I finally told my mom that I actually don't believe anymore, I'd already been that way for number of years, but never told her. And her first thing was like, you're bitter and you're hurt.
01:18:51
Speaker
And I'm like, well, I might be hurt, but i was like, I'm not bitter. You can ask all the people around me. Um, if I'm a bitter person, no, I wish it didn't happen. But, um, I'm not bitter at the world and, and, uh, life goes on and, and how can I use this to better things?
01:19:13
Speaker
So if I would have had a very hard time handling that in a graceful way, and with the, with the, uh, the mother saying that it's like, you're just bitter. It's like,
01:19:26
Speaker
Yeah. it was a heart It was a hard moment. I'm not going to lie. Especially when you know that you had really kind of, you you you're like, I'm telling you now, but I had stopped a long time ago. Like this is not, but that's something people tell themselves to to feel, to to deal with that. Like I think of like my and my parents, you know, and they're still very committed evangelicals.
Parental Realizations and Expectations
01:19:54
Speaker
And you just go like, yeah, you know, like yeah you'll hear things at times where you go, that's your way of, that's your way of dealing with it being hurtful that the way you raised your, your children didn't work out the way you wanted. Like a lesser version of that is like,
01:20:13
Speaker
uh is uh yeah it's oh i didn't realize i didn't realize the way we brought you guys up was so terrible ah like that's the lesser version you go oh okay we're doing we're playing that okay let's uh i don't have time to get into it yeah that's a whole nother uh story and maybe off air i'll give you a story about that but um When I fully unloaded on her, yeah, anyway.
01:20:45
Speaker
so leaves it We'll leave that for off the air. How did... How
Involvement with Upward Intuition
01:20:50
Speaker
did... how ah how did ah this get you connected with so tell me a little upward intuition I think I just made the mistake um of conflating two different things through my conversation with Andy as you corrected the beginning of the episode here where I was thinking you were the one who started and listening having the again that's my mistake conflating maybe other individuals involved with the starting of it what was your connection to upward intuition how you got involved with it and um and like kind of like where things are at with it right now let's talk about that before we close out because it is a fucking awesome organization and uh i want people to know about it yeah so john chill uh
01:21:38
Speaker
friend of his died a number of years ago and he wrote a blog post called forgotten youth.
Building Skateparks and Community Engagement
01:21:45
Speaker
And it was all about youth that, um, skate or whatever that are not, uh, mainstream sports kids. And then, you know, they're off and then they get kind of branded as being, um, criminals. Or if if you're a skater,
01:22:02
Speaker
you skate in parking lots and stuff like that and you get ran out and everyone's security wants you to leave and they're calling the cops and get this whole stigma. And then it gets in your head that you're, uh, that you are a bad. And, um, so he wrote this blog and then he's like, I'm going to build a skate park. And it took him eight years and it was finally finished. Um, it's about two weeks before Avery passed, but, um,
01:22:29
Speaker
It took him eight years and he started Upward Intuition. And like I said, he had met Avery at the park, him and Andy, a couple of weeks before he passed. And then they got up with me and then I just wanted to be involved and um just kept showing up and showing up and showing up.
01:22:47
Speaker
And so eventually you need to be part of this organization. And so going forward, we're going to build more small skate spots. We have enough to build one that will be named after Avery.
01:22:59
Speaker
Already at one of our local one our local parks. We got all the private funding to pay for it. that We don't need anything from the city, um but we want to continue to do that. And also we're doing like skate clinics and trying to do after school programming um underprivileged kids where maybe we tutored for an hour, not we,
01:23:24
Speaker
None of us are capable of tutoring. about the The tutors do that. And then we take them to the skate park for like an hour after that, you know, twice a week or something like that. And we're just really trying to motivate youth um through skate art music, because that's all of our passions. Those three things and um teach them that you can accomplish things in your local community um,
01:23:52
Speaker
include the kids in making this happen, like not just us go out and make it happen. Let's get these kids. Let's teach them how this works. Let's get them to go to city council. Let's teach them that you can be involved in your community and you can make things happen.
01:24:08
Speaker
ah God, I love that, man. That is so sick. i Giving kids like that purpose. It's something to fight for, too. like Because it is. like you know there's like There's a countercultural aspect of within, you know obviously, alternative scenes in general.
01:24:25
Speaker
And you you talked about how people who skate were often on a part of the fringe because it's like, yeah, people call the cops. And then that, that creates this idea that you're against something that your existence is actively against the status quo in some way, shape or form. And that, that informs the way that you make decisions going forward.
01:24:46
Speaker
And that's not even something that I would have thought about prior to you just making that connection for me. um And why? Cause you know, as someone who is just, a suburban kid is like skating was cool. Like, I don't know why it was all like, yeah yeah, I wouldn't make that connection. So that that's huge, but giving them a place in a way to direct that, um, that energy, cause you can, you can direct, you can be,
01:25:12
Speaker
even in that countercultural mindset and direct that de ah direct your energy towards something really awesome. Because at this point in in the world that we live in, you need that.
01:25:25
Speaker
You need people who have that mindset to direct their rage and their frustration and their energy towards something that is actually better for everybody, despite what, you know, the other people want to tell us.
Skate Community and Inclusivity
01:25:38
Speaker
Um, so really cool shit. Um, I lost my train of thought because I, my, I got a text from my wife who is sleeping, uh, who you would be sleeping. I assumed it was about my children.
01:25:54
Speaker
ah so I looked at it while I was talking and I lost my train of thought. I'm very sorry. My wife just walked by and was like, oh, you're still doing that? Yeah. that's our That's our fault. We had a couple of technical difficulties.
01:26:08
Speaker
um But, um, all right. So building a skate park. uh, do you have the, the, the plans for building a skate park and naming, naming it after Avery?
01:26:22
Speaker
Um, yeah what's it look like to try to find the right spot? And then you said you have the funds allocated. I imagine skate parks are a lot of concrete and that shit's not cheap these days.
01:26:33
Speaker
Uh, yeah. So the, uh, big skate spot, skate park is About $2.5 million. and But we're going to these little ones. There's 93 parks in Pensacola. They have the basketball goals. They have the playground equipment. they Playground equipment costs like $400,000, and it rests out in 10 years. We can build skate spots that will last 30 years.
01:26:57
Speaker
But making it more like Plaza-ish where you can still have a market and doesn't – not bowls and – it looked natural. They do a lot of this in Europe.
01:27:08
Speaker
And, um, and so we've raised enough, uh, about, we can do one for about 250,000 and, fifty thousand and ah do we have the money for that? And we plan on continuing to do these across Pensacola. And we already have people reaching out to us from other communities. Like, how do you do this? And, know, we're a nonprofit and, uh,
01:27:31
Speaker
who knows where it'll go. Maybe we're facilitating, helping people from other communities and, um, teaching them how we got these things done and, and, uh, who knows where it'll go.
01:27:42
Speaker
i think it's pretty cool. um It's nice to have stuff for, for kids in that age range. And I didn't think about the fact that, yeah, I mean, all these towns put in these giant playgrounds and stuff and then, you know, they look like crap after a decade, you know, and,
01:28:00
Speaker
You also, some of them, I mean, I know my little town, they've got a couple of little areas, you know, where kids can play and stuff like that. And I don't, I don't know. You don't see that many kids on these like big jungle gyms and stuff all the time, you know?
01:28:16
Speaker
So it seems like you'd probably get more usage and a longer lifespan out of something like a skate park. And it's a little more, it's, it's useful to a broader range of kids than just like a big giant, you know, playground structure.
01:28:30
Speaker
Well, if I can share this, um I think it's the number one used park right now in Pensacola. And it's so inclusive. Here's the skate community. If I can put this in a nutshell, it's all inclusive.
01:28:44
Speaker
It's, you know, black, white, gay, straight, old, young, everything. no one's judged. Old people help young kids learn. It's, uh,
01:28:58
Speaker
You don't have to wear a certain kind of clothes. It's all individual. You can be an individual, wear whatever you want. There's no judgment. And it's just an amazing community. And most people don't know that. and But when they get introduced to it, they're just like, oh, my God, this is so amazing.
01:29:18
Speaker
I can't believe this community exists. And so um that's just where we're
Closing Remarks and Future Aspirations
01:29:24
Speaker
at. And we're trying to spread it. Man, I love that. That's awesome. Russell, thanks so much for having this conversation with us. I know, obviously, we touched on some hard things.
01:29:36
Speaker
I know we had some technical difficulties that hopefully won't come through for any the listeners after Casey works his ass off displacees to splice us together. Get it, Casey. yeah I, uh, when we were texting, I was telling you about how I'm, I wish skating was one of the things I wished I did as a kid. And I spent a lot of time in my basement doing it.
01:29:58
Speaker
Uh, I got an Ollie down, but I never got comfortable enough on a board to take it outside or be too serious with it. But, um, I, uh, if I ever find my way out to the Pensacola area, maybe you can, maybe you can teach me a thing or two.
01:30:15
Speaker
um I'll build one and send it to you. I've got about 60 skateboards in my house. yeah Nice. That'd be great. I can't, my daughter has really been interested in it.
01:30:27
Speaker
Uh, so maybe I can, uh, maybe she'll, maybe that's something we can start trying to do together. Learn to skateboard, uh, meet her at nine and me at 36. thirty six Heck yeah. Yeah.
01:30:41
Speaker
But man, Russell, thanks so much, man. I, this is so great to talk to you. Uh, huge shout out to Andy for connecting us. Um, yeah, I guess just thank you again. Appreciate you, man.
01:30:53
Speaker
Right on. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for listening and we will see you next time.