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Ep. 224 – Cringe Is in the Eye of the Beholder w/ Guard
298 Plays26 days ago
This week we’re joined by Australian musician and meme lord, Guard! Guard reigns supreme as one of the undisputed masters of meme pages and has built many of them over the years, including tinderVSreality, mycringe, mymoistmemes, and dopegrounds. In this episode, we discuss his Christian upbringing in South Africa and Australia, the Vineyard church he was a part of, his Christian Science school, and the struggles of being a young gay kid in a church environment that’s not exactly welcoming. Guard has a new song dropping April 3 called “Consuma,” and an upcoming EP that we’re excited to hear! Follow him on Instagram and Youtube(@guard), and presave “Consuma” wherever you stream music!
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Transcript
Parental Disownment and Pressure to Change Sexuality
00:00:00
Speaker
Because, i mean, there's so many stories that go the other direction of like, you know, parents learning this about their kid and then disowning. Yeah, either the disowning or they're like, the it gets to that point where it's like, well, the only way to fix this is to keep forcing you to go to this environment because they're being told that this is the only thing that's going to like root out all the gay. so that way their kids. Absolutely. And it's like, do you want me to kill myself? Like, is that?
00:00:27
Speaker
the answer, like, because you can't change it as much as I did. Like I would pray every night that God would make me straight. I like moved city because I was like, I'm leaving all the gay stuff in Melbourne.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:42
Speaker
It's not going to, it's not going to follow me. um But then within a couple of months I had a dick in my mouth. So what am I going to do? fall the on Off the wagon again.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah. yeah
00:01:13
Speaker
everybody, and welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm
Internet Fame and Satirical Content
00:01:17
Speaker
Casey. I'm Sam. And we are joined today, very excited to be joined today, by musician, meme lord, all around just like internet culture, oracle, Gard.
00:01:29
Speaker
Hey guys. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat with you. Yeah, I kind of, i was I was thinking about it today, but ah it has to be close to a decade that I've been like following your pages.
00:01:43
Speaker
And like, cause you had, you know, the original one, it was, was Tinder versus reality. Was that like your original page? Yeah, it went through many different reincarnations, but yeah, that was the first one that sort of blew up.
00:01:58
Speaker
Um, it opened many doors, but it also taught me a lot about the culture. I think I kind of, uh, held onto it a bit too tightly for a while. It became a bit of my identity, um,
00:02:10
Speaker
But I think I've moved past that a little bit now. um But yeah, still kicking it. i love I love it. Like, I just love freaking people out online. um And just seeing the comment sections, it warms my ice cold heart.
00:02:24
Speaker
It does like, like, your, the stuff that your curations have just like, poke me in the funny bone like every time it's just a perfect mix of like bizarre and weird and disgusting and like you know just puzzling content that i'm i don't know how many times it's made me like laugh out loud but it's been a lot well that's good to know i always appreciate the re the returning characters yes we get when you get to track story arcs is when um
00:02:56
Speaker
that's I need like, yeah, of course that like 40 seconds of cringes is um it just great. But when you, when you really make it personal and pull me into their story.
00:03:09
Speaker
I love that. I've actually like met so many content creators through it. um a lot of the times, like I don't tag them because people send them death threats and like track them down. So I'm like, let me not tag you, but I've actually met a few people through there. And like,
00:03:23
Speaker
um Yeah, made some really good connections with the content creators and, you know, actively share their stuff. um I think it's good. It's all about those recurring characters, isn't it? It's a bit of ah a sitcom, hey?
00:03:34
Speaker
a yeah um Okay, so with the people that ah you do, that the content creators that will send you things or that you have a relationship with, Are, is it in, are they really, is this like authentic?
00:03:47
Speaker
Are these people authentic in what they're doing and they're just like, love that you're pumping it for them or is some of it just a bit? Hell no. It's all, it's all um satirical. Like they love, they, they want to be posted. You know, people always like commenting, like you're bullying. Oh, stop posting this. It's like, no, like every single person that's on the page is posting it.
00:04:12
Speaker
intentionally to make people feel cringe. um There might be every now and then some sprinkled in there where it's genuine and that wasn't their intention. Bob Hickman? Who?
00:04:23
Speaker
you Oh, do you know Bob Hickman? He's one of our favorites. Have I posted him? I don't think so. I wonder. wouldn't be surprised if you had at some point, but he's got a bowl cut.
00:04:36
Speaker
He does himself. For sure does it himself. He's a weird little guy and he he starts every video with the same spiel. He goes... God entered my body, like a body my same size, like me floating into you and you floating into me.
00:04:50
Speaker
ah Holy Ghost baptism. And then he's like, it's ah December the 11th and I'm starting my new job at UPS.
Ethical Concerns in Featuring Content Creators
00:05:00
Speaker
and Sometimes he's naked in his basement. Oh my God. fluctuates between UPS and FedEx.
00:05:06
Speaker
he's he fluctuates between u p s and fed I have his phone number and we've done some texting. I have not been to get on the podcast. There is a concern that people will hate us for having him on because he's clearly mentally unwell.
00:05:18
Speaker
Okay. Okay. so It is a fine line. It is a fine line. Very fine line. um So, you know, That's the the the push and pull. But he does, i he always has like his FedEx shirt on and he's got, he puts his arms up.
00:05:33
Speaker
So his shirt comes like just under, just, just above his like his butt creases, you know, so you get a little bit of that. um And he strategically angles himself. So like his, his penis is between like hidden by his thigh, but there have been a little bit of like, there's been some slippage here and there that you'll get.
00:05:54
Speaker
but I don't know why I live for that. i don't know why it matters to me. He has like a thousand videos of him just doing the same thing. And occasionally you see a little nutsack or something. He's a fascinating man. He drives this van and it's paint. He has it like group painted all over. It just says the same thing. Like God under my body, a body my same size.
00:06:14
Speaker
And it's like just covered in writing. It sounds like some religious trauma right there. hey da Yeah. Yeah. I'd say so. I really do. i like i don't want it to be like, we're exploiting. I genuinely want to talk to this man, not to make fun of him.
00:06:29
Speaker
um Not to, I don't, I don't want to like give him trauma flashbacks or anything, but I'm very curious where he's coming No. And I get that a lot. Like when people reach out to me, like, please tag me in this post.
Challenges of Online Content Moderation
00:06:44
Speaker
And I'll be like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Like tagging you now. And they, they love it. They're like, no, like, thank you for sharing. like just tag me in it i'm like oh do they think i'm like bullying them don't know maybe a little who's somebody like your favorite recurring characters there've been so many but i think the first one um well there's dancing asian man which don't know if you guys have seen that that's kind of ridiculous soft dude in the super tight shit yeah oh the it's like
00:07:18
Speaker
That's right. I was trying to think of the dance that he does. um But I think the first one that sort of caught on was um on Tinderverse reality. Do you guys remember that meme? It was about like Demi Lovato's long lost sister that had been locked in a basement. Her name was Poot Lovato.
00:07:33
Speaker
Do you remember that? I don't know that one. was this like just really... Like T-O-O-T? Yeah, this really, really unflattering photo of Demi Lovato where she just kind of looked really different. I think it had actually been like Photoshopped slightly, but it became this like meme where it's like, this is Poot Lovato. And it just, yeah, it just became, it just snowballed. And I used to make like little videos about Poot onto diverse reality and that kind of blew it up originally, just about her backstory, you know, just the usual stuff.
00:08:03
Speaker
I don't know how, like anyone who does what you do, that posts ah several times a day at times, like our Instagram, like I, ah we struggled, I struggled to do a weekly posts.
00:08:16
Speaker
Like, yeah, I, we're in, that's like, obviously an out, you know, that's an algorithm death sentence right there. Um, so it's hard to like, but like, I don't, I don't, I, I'm assuming you have like a life, you know? and Yeah, I'm you really busy. life i' I'm really busy with work and I make music and obviously the meme stuff. But yeah, like it doesn't it doesn't take up as much time of the day as you would think.
00:08:46
Speaker
um But yeah, like I curate for other people, freelance based as well. I work in corporate marketing. so I curate and, you know, create content for a lot of pages that I don't publicize that I run.
00:09:01
Speaker
um okay But yeah, I think that there is a bit of an addiction in there for me. It used to be a lot worse. Like if one of my pages got deleted or my like something got reported, i would literally have a mental breakdown.
00:09:14
Speaker
Now it's like, it doesn't faze me. Like my heart rate doesn't even go up. I'm just like, it is what it is. But yeah, there's definitely like, For me, it's like I love to see the engagement. I don't care that it's not necessarily directed towards me as a person.
00:09:29
Speaker
i just like love creating division online. how How many pages have you had have you gotten deleted? but ah Probably six or seven. Okay.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah. man like it's the standard because none The standards for why things get It's a jar and doest a joke. It's a joke. Well, you know, it used to be crazy. Like Tinderverse reality, the shit I would post on there, it was basically like porn. Like I would take like porn intros and then meme those.
00:10:04
Speaker
And that was the the guidelines at that stage. Like you could do that. This was like, yeah, probably 10, 11 years ago. Like, you know, all those like porn parodies, like there was one that was like Dickachu and it was like a Pokemon podcast.
00:10:18
Speaker
parody, you know, and like, that was my content. that Like, you know, there's this old guy going like, stop, I'm a virgin. Well, there's like ladies, like trying to like have sex with them, you know, and that was the content that I'd post.
00:10:31
Speaker
And slowly they just got more and more restrictive on what you could post. But even then it's like what it gets reported for. does not relate to the content. It's always nudity. And I'm like, there's actually no nudity in this. Like there's no nudity be sexual solicitation. And I'm like, how is a cringy TikTok soliciting sex, but you can't, you don't really have a leg to stand on. You kind of just have to guess what the algorithm picks up. And that's the thing, like,
00:11:00
Speaker
People take it so so like so personally when something gets deleted and it's like, no, this is all automated. like It's just that the algorithms picked up something in the metadata or something in the post and it's just flagged it It's not related to people reporting?
00:11:19
Speaker
Or can it be? think so. I think that's how my pages have gone down. There's been a few sort of like mass reporting movements online to kind of destroy me. Which is so dumb. I can't think of anything more pathetic. You guys are bruised.
00:11:33
Speaker
Well, I get it though. Like, I don't know. I do get it. I remember before I started blowing up on... Instagram, like I would see someone with say 10,000 followers and I'll be like, they've made it, they're famous. Like I would be jealous, you know? And now when you're on the other side of it, you kind of, you understand it's not actually that cool. Well, it is cool, but it's, it's just, it doesn't mean as much you think it does. So I do understand like, you know, there's people like begging me
00:12:07
Speaker
to post them. And if I don't, I get death threats. I've had my i really address leaked. I've had my family contacted,
Family Reactions to Online Fame
00:12:16
Speaker
um you know, a lot of nonsense.
00:12:18
Speaker
And ah kind of find it flattering in a weird way. I'm like, at least they talk, at least they talking about me. your family what are they like dude i can't even believe that we're getting contacted by these psychos because this guy can't stop posting but it's cringy they also love it like you know when we'll go on like holidays we were in canada like a few years back we were in like the montreal like underground city kind of thing and uh people were like running up to me wanting like pictures and like wanting to like give me a coffee and stuff my parents like what the hell like so they love it but
00:12:54
Speaker
My mom specifically does not like the content. She refuses to follow. My dad finds it funny. yeah ah Well, I'm sure we're ah drifting in this direction, but is it, yeah is that a religious objection?
00:13:09
Speaker
I mean, i think I was a bit of a prude growing up. um No, it's not a religious objection. It's just like, it's not her sense of humor and it's a little bit too outrageous for her. um But yeah, I mean, my parents were both missionaries. So growing up, I was completely in the church. um So I'm from South Africa.
00:13:29
Speaker
Both of my parents are from little inland kind of country towns in South Africa. I was born in Graham's camp. Have tried telling Elon to stop? Elon, stop. Yeah.
00:13:40
Speaker
Rain in your boy. Yeah. Oh, cause he's South African. Well, girl. You guys all know each other, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, he is on another level. Unfortunately, no connections, but, um, you guys have a lot in common. You're both living the meme.
00:13:57
Speaker
Both living the meme. Yeah. But I think he like who wants that. I think he he's like actively trying to meme himself, which I do sometimes, but hey, it's a bit he is like the epitome of cringe, but I guess he's self-aware. so but it's not The first self-aware AI. Sort of.
00:14:19
Speaker
It's terrible. ah so So where were your parents' missionaries then? um So they were part of this um organization called YWAM, which was like... Oh.
00:14:32
Speaker
a missionary, they, i don't know. It was mainly in Europe, I think. and I think they did like maybe Southeast Asia as well, but I think it was like Scotland and England and Ireland and that kind of thing.
00:14:46
Speaker
i had friends in YWAM. ah They, some of them were in Hawaii, ah one of the better places to be a missionary, but. Lucky, lucky. Yeah. um Yeah.
Religious Upbringing and Personal Struggles
00:14:56
Speaker
I don't think they, I think they, yeah, they would have been like early twenties. It was, you know, back in the days, like they got married,
00:15:01
Speaker
My mom was like 17, dad was 18, and then they were like straight off to missionary um missionary work. And then my dad served in the South African Army.
00:15:13
Speaker
um Yeah. So i was kind of brought up in the church against my will. and Were you... that the You were raised throughout your entire childhood in South Africa? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. we um We immigrated to Australia when I was seven.
00:15:33
Speaker
um But yeah, before that, it was it was completely in the church. Like our entire community was within the church. um And it was, yeah, Vineyard Christian. That was the, um what do you call it? Denomination?
00:15:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's like, i isn't it? i guess it's a denomination. Vineyard is a we have some vineyard churches around. um ah There's plenty in the US, too. um But I had friends that were ah like that were part of a vineyard church i'm just gonna that ultimately imploded because the pastor kind of went crazy. But.
00:16:06
Speaker
Well, isn't that usually the the way it goes? it It seems more common for it to happen there in that way.
00:16:16
Speaker
Like lots of churches, ah you know, I feel like with more and more prevalence, I'm seeing like sex scandal, this sex scandal, that sex to a minor, this, said you know, ah but the vineyard church is usually like,
00:16:33
Speaker
ah that has that like eccentric eat more easily drifts toward into like culty like territory oh absolutely yeah the pastors were almost cult leaders um you know lovely people i'm not going to name names not going to say anything but definitely in in hindsight um there was a a cult leader aspect to them to the point where like you know growing up i actually thought that they were like brothers of God or like they were actually like deities almost, you know, um which is kind of ridiculous.
00:17:10
Speaker
um Yeah. But then growing up, you know, and you kind of hear about the scandals and things that have sort of gone on, it humanizes in a way um that I think is more powerful than um holding onto this cults cult figure status.
00:17:27
Speaker
um But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we but when we moved to Australia, we um I think because that was my parents' form of community was the church.
00:17:40
Speaker
So we quite quickly found another Vineyard Christian church up here. Yeah. um And that, yeah, became the rest of my childhood and sort of going into teenage um teenage years, um which was interesting. i think definitely as like an effeminate child,
00:17:58
Speaker
um who was probably on the trajectory of being gay, ah there were a few issues, you know, a few kind of semi-conversion therapy-esque prayers,
00:18:10
Speaker
um you know. Like trying to cover their bases. They're like, yeah, trying to. We can see where this is going. Pray me straight. um You know, and there were just things that you witness as a child that really stay with you. You know, like there was ah a lesbian affair at the church and they got asked to leave.
00:18:28
Speaker
Um, you know, there was just things like that, that stick with you and just really make you feel like it's not right. What you, what you are. Um, yeah. And was that was after the pastor asked for the secret cam footage, just to, just to verify, verify. Yeah. you know to make shamefully Thankfully, I didn't undergo any sexual abuse within the church, but I would say religious abuse has been a big thing. um I think like when you're, when you're brought up to believe that who you are as a person is truly sinful and tainted, um, it's very damaging for a very young child, especially, you know, dealing with sexuality.
00:19:11
Speaker
Um, yeah. And I feel like I've, I've been on a journey of healing the trauma probably over the past, like six years or so. um And now I'm only partly suicidal, which is good. what What do you think was like, I mean, do you, can you remember like, um like a couple of, like where those touch points where you felt like they were specifically like trying to pray the gay away?
00:19:40
Speaker
i mean, when did that start? What's the earliest point?
00:19:45
Speaker
I mean, I think it's, it's sort of more indoctrination of just like, you know, even though you can't really pinpoint in the Bible where it says like being homosexual is inherently wrong. It's just, that is the impression that's given at church.
00:20:00
Speaker
um You know, two men cannot lay together or something. I don't know what the scripture is, but um it's just an attitude. um And then I think there were all of those moments of like homophobia. It was a, it was a, it was a different time in society, I guess, where that was a bit more,
00:20:19
Speaker
accepted to be more homophobic but i would say like when i was about 13 i had one of my first gay experiences um and i told my mom about it because you know when you're a christian boy you tell your parents absolutely everything like even to this day like they know every single thing about my life um and yeah i was dragged to church um and yeah like speaking in tongues people like putting their hands on me and You know, and I was like distraught because I genuinely felt like I'm going to hell.
00:20:53
Speaker
um Yeah, which I don't think like that really ever goes away, especially being gay. Like, you know, when it's it's literally drilled in you, like this is like demonic. This is so dirty and sinful.
00:21:09
Speaker
um But I think there's also like issues just around... like sex in general, growing up Christian, like my sister, who's, who's a straight female, she's married. We've had long discussions about it that, you know, she felt so shamed for having sexual thoughts growing up. and You know, there whole true love weights, bracelets and oh nonsense like that. And, you know, having sex before marriage, we both felt equally dirty and unclean. Yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
yeah ah yeah The only place that like male on male extended sexual contact was allowed and warranted was at promise keepers meetings.
00:21:51
Speaker
There's a lot of tearful embraces, lot of background. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. so yeah, I kept it very, um very under wraps. You know I feel like I came out quite late in life, but it it was like,
00:22:04
Speaker
you know, it actually really got worse in my teenage years, just that like complete cognitive dissonance of like, this is what I'm attracted to, but this goes against absolutely everything I've been raised.
00:22:17
Speaker
Um, you know, and it starts, um, manifesting physically. Um, you know, I was extremely depressed. I developed an eating disorder. I was suicidal. I was hospitalized, you know, just nonsense.
00:22:31
Speaker
Um, Yeah, which um I guess sort of led my parents to leave the church. um Because if you you know you're willingly going somewhere that's teaching you that what your son is, is wrong.
00:22:43
Speaker
um I don't think they could accept that. um And now they've done a full 360. Like my mum thinks she's non-binary. um My dad thinks he is bisexual.
00:22:56
Speaker
my God. It's done a full 360. for Because, i mean, there's so many stories that go the other direction of like, you know, parents learning this about their kid and then discerning.
00:23:09
Speaker
yeah the disowning or they're like the it gets to that point where it's like well the only way to fix this is to keep forcing you to go to this environment because they're being told that this is the only thing that's gonna like root out all the gay so that way they're absolutely and it's like do you want me to kill myself like is that the answer like because you can't change it as much as i did like I would pray every night that God would make me straight.
00:23:37
Speaker
I like moved city because I was like, I'm leaving all the gay stuff in Melbourne. It's not going to, it's not going to follow me. um But then within a couple months I had a dick in my mouth. So what am I going to do? for the um Off the wagon again.
00:23:54
Speaker
whoops even Yeah. funny That's the, ah that's the gay equivalent of like all the kids that when I was in like high school, it was like, the kids who would like get caught up in like, you know, drinking and partying, but they're like, they're feeling like that tension, right? They're like, this isn't Christian. This isn't right. I should, I'm going to leave. I'm going to go somewhere else and get away from it all. And within two weeks, they're like, they, because they're just, that's who they are. That they're absolutely, you're going to gravitate towards those people everywhere you fucking go You, everyone has a radar for their type of people.
00:24:26
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah I also went to a very religious school as well. Oh, yeah. Now we're talking. I'm not going to name names anything like that. um I will just say the religion was Christian science um of the school, which is another level of, yeah.
Questioning Religious Beliefs
00:24:45
Speaker
um Why? Christian science? We haven't actually brushed up against people who have been involved in Christian science. I don't think we've about Christian It was interesting.
00:24:54
Speaker
ah I think I was sort of, you know, late – teens, I was very skeptical towards all religion. um and just very, yeah, just very aware of like what is being preached to me. I don't actually have to accept into my life.
00:25:12
Speaker
Um, but yeah, that school, we had to sign a contract that we would never drink smoke or take any kind of drugs while we were enrolled. Um, otherwise, yeah, you would be face, face expulsion. Um, which is, you know, that's, that's their beliefs. Um,
00:25:28
Speaker
ah no one forced me to go to the school, but I think it did kind of create a toxic kind of thinking around substances where like, you know, as soon as we graduated, I mean, I can only speak for myself.
00:25:41
Speaker
I fell into drugs straight away. I fell into binge drinking straight away um because it was almost like anti-establishment or it was, um yeah, I was like, you know, rebelling against these rules.
00:25:56
Speaker
Whereas like, say if it's something that's more accepted and more you're more educated about instead of just like, do not even think about this until you're legal. um Maybe it wouldn't have been that way.
00:26:08
Speaker
But yeah, i did I did find it quite culty. And it was, I think, quite similar to Mormonism, a lot of their teachings. um So there was a ah big Mormon community and Christian science community at that school.
00:26:22
Speaker
We're big Mormon fans. Yeah, we do love talking about the Mormon. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. they That's my shit. I love that show. Everybody just jacked on Pepsi Zero.
00:26:37
Speaker
Oh, are your people, Casey. I know. it should have been a Mormon. Does Christian Science also like drugs, meaning like they have a weird relationship to modern medicine too, right? It's like if you get sick pray for it um like only if you're absolutely on your deathbed i think you can get medical help i don't know i'm really not the expert on christian scientists i kind of like honestly blocked a lot of it out while i was there i was just there for school yeah um but yeah i like we did have some family friends that were in the in the church and yeah there was a a big thing against medicine just any any kind of like stimulant or anything that you're ingesting don't know
00:27:20
Speaker
I'm pretty sure anti-Tylenol even. like i Yeah, absolutely. Even the deathbed thing, I'm sure there are communities that make various exceptions based on their own, um what's it called?
00:27:35
Speaker
Like circumstance? yeah um But but like ah you know within a denomination, you'll have your your local chapters that kind of do things a little bit their own way. Oh, yeah. Well, that that's sort of what kind of woke me up a little bit to religion.
00:27:50
Speaker
was just seeing, so they they have this, oh my God, I feel like I'm, I don't know, hopefully I'm not going to get in trouble or anything with the Alumni Association. But basically, like Christian Science is built off of this scripture.
00:28:05
Speaker
It's called, it's something keys to the key to the scripture by Mary Baker Eddy, who was like their figurehead. um And it's basically just, you know, picking and choosing scriptures from the Bible and making them fit to what you want.
00:28:20
Speaker
Oh, like everybody else. Absolutely. And I think that's kind of what woke me up to it where it's like, no, like, like, especially if there's a figurehead of a, of a religion that is to me, a cult.
00:28:33
Speaker
um But yeah. okay Yeah. um What was just going to say about Christian science? We have, i have, a it's good. I have one near me. That's got a,
00:28:47
Speaker
a reading room. The yeah building itself is very interesting. yeah And I feel like that my experience and understanding of it ah personally is that they have a particular type of architecture. Did they stand out like building wise, or is it just, did it look pretty regular?
00:29:06
Speaker
Not really in Australia. I don't feel like they stand out too much. Like sometimes it looks a bit Masonic, but um not really like they,
00:29:16
Speaker
But it's like, you know what it is, but they kind of just look like Christian libraries or like Christian buildings. I feel like Christian libraries is the perfect way to explain what I was thinking.
00:29:29
Speaker
The Methodists really have a lock on all the like good Midwestern architecture. Yeah. They got the weird tentpole, strange buildings. instead they also have the isn't it the isn't Don't they have the red sash over the cross isn't that their logo Because that a pretty logo. I have no idea. it might be Is that Episcopal?
00:29:52
Speaker
I don't know. i'm I'm out in left field now. What you call me? So many denominations, and all of them are the right one. um And all of the other ones are wrong, apart from the one that I choose and I believe in Everything else is wrong.
00:30:08
Speaker
Exactly. It's crazy how all those people found their way into the exact right thing. I do love the idea, like the anti-medicine thing, because if you think about it in like the context of like how they talk to us at youth things about like music or or pornography, you know they'd be like...
00:30:26
Speaker
Hey, look, maybe you don't listen to Limp Bizkit, all right? and Maybe you think, I don't listen to that stuff. I'm okay. I like country. Well, country is full of vile, blah, blah. You know, they just go down the list and get progressively worse. Wouldn't it be funny to just listen to a sermon like that that's like, maybe you're like, hey, I don't take SSRIs. I'm off the hook. But, you know, you took some Pepto-Bismol when you had an upset tummy. I suppose you think that's all right, huh?
00:30:50
Speaker
It's a slippery slope. Picking and choosing, yeah. I mean, when you you mentioned pornography, I mean, that was something that, I got into very early, very young, I think sort of in my trauma healing, or someone's breathing deeply in my trauma, in my trauma healing journey, I'm like saying it with a smile, but it's not a happy thing. Like it was actually revealed to me that I was abused when I was very young. So when I was probably about two or three, um I have zero recollection of it at all.
00:31:21
Speaker
Um, but you know your body remembers and your nervous system sort of remembers abuse. um And I think a symptom of that is getting into pornography very young.
00:31:33
Speaker
I remember I was probably about seven or eight when I first discovered it, which is like wow very young age to be sexualized, um but it was always gay porn. And so it was kind it was kind of like...
00:31:48
Speaker
A self-serving, ah self-flagellation session where it's like, you know, I would watch gay porn and then it's like, I would beat myself up for days and days because it's like, this is what God doesn't want me to do.
00:32:03
Speaker
but then it's like you kind of like breaking rules. sorry So just a mess. I have a very bizarre question. um Yes, I'm gay. yes I'm joking. I'm joking. We maintain good diplomatic relations with the gays. Oh, cool. That's actually... yeah yeah we Yeah, we know some. We've got a couple of them. One of our our ah reoccurring guests is from Australia.
00:32:31
Speaker
and He's a Melbourne guy, right? Hey, and hot tip. ah We have it on good authority that Brazil is the gayest place in the world. i could I could see that. I've never been, but I know that like Mardi Gras is like the biggest thing ever. Even though it's not actually a gay festival over there, is it? Mardi Gras.
00:32:48
Speaker
don't It's just like Carnival. ah something i don't know but i can imagine that okay my bizarre question watch the e-channel i guess uh when you you get into to porn at seven or eight yeah is it like so i'm i'm a school adjustment counselor um and i work with kindergartners and first graders and some of the children i work with have had um have been introduced to porn to various degrees.
00:33:16
Speaker
am And you can see the, yeah, that's what we do at work. I'm like, Hey, watch this video. um You make some smoke, the whole pack. wow And ah like, you can see that the impact that it can have on kids for sure.
00:33:36
Speaker
um Because those kids are usually the ones that's like, you know, we've, someone goes, Hey, they were looking at my privates in the bathroom or they touched my privates in the bath. Like we deal with these kinds of issues. for sure and um But what I, I guess what's the, just from this perspective, my, my question is when you're, ah when you find it at that age, are you like, is it, you, is it just like a curiosity thing? Like, is it, or is it like, were you, was there like a early sexual awakening for you because of this?
00:34:10
Speaker
I would say definitely there was an early sexual awakening, but I do actually have a bit of a funny story about how I found porn. That's weird. We like tragically funny things. It's actually kind of cute thinking back at it. like I was such an innocent child. was furries. That's what was cute about it. Furries. I loved furries.
00:34:30
Speaker
so i love stuffed animals. I love porn. Best of both worlds. Yes, absolutely. And bears are, you know, hairy. Shout out Jason. so i um i was bullied a lot as a kid you know i was just always effeminate and like you know you could just see that i was different like i was dancing i was acting i was just you know from a very very young age um it was bunch of crocodile dundees weren't having it ah and so in an effort to make myself more masculine i wanted to do some research so i was like how can i
00:35:08
Speaker
how can I like research this? i don't know. I was like seven and I went on go on the online, like dial up modem or whatever and searched boys.com because I thought that would be like a way to learn to learn more about like masculinity and and men. And I saw porn straight away. And I think I didn't, I didn't understand, like it made me feel weird. Like it made me feel like something was like,
00:35:35
Speaker
like burning inside of me like it was very strange I didn't understand like I didn't I couldn't comprehend that what was going on was for sexual gratification but I knew that it was like wrong and that it had to be like kept secret with like guarded with my life like yeah I told my parents about it like a couple of years ago and they had absolutely no idea and you know it was back in the days when like it was like a shared family computer on like a dial-up modem.
00:36:04
Speaker
And I was like full watching porn on there, downloading, like, you know, sometimes on LimeWire, you would just download a song and it would actually be like porn. Yeah, that happened. I got the porn virus from downloading song.
00:36:15
Speaker
Wouldn't be wild if your mom all those years was like, holy shit, all these years, I've thought that your dad went to boys.com. They had no idea. They absolutely had no idea. Yeah.
00:36:27
Speaker
But yeah, that was my sort of entry into it. But yeah, I think it definitely, from my ah learnings and healing from sexual abuse, I think it definitely is a symptom of being sexualized as a kid.
00:36:41
Speaker
um And it made me sexual towards other children.
Exploration of Sexuality and Shame
00:36:46
Speaker
thank Thankfully, in my memory, I do not remember any encounters with adults or abuse or anything like that.
00:36:55
Speaker
But it definitely did make me um you know, but I think there also is just like a general kind of sexual exploration as as children and as early teenagers. But even that is demonized completely by the church or my experience of it. So it was just a lot of shame. i think that's the word. and i And I know my sister felt it as well from having sex before marriage and things like that. It was just complete and utter shame. And and just like like your soul has almost been tarnished, and it's it's irreparable. Yeah, it's like, um it's interesting, because I kind of wonder if maybe I had a similar sort of experience.
00:37:39
Speaker
And so yeah, that kind of resonates. But I've thought a lot about since, you know, cause we, so we've had guests on, you know, we went to a big Christian university and in Virginia, that's where we met.
00:37:55
Speaker
And, you know, we, little did we know that like there was this whole like conversion therapy thing that was happening behind the scenes and people were going through this like horrible, just psychological manipulation and stuff like that. And I've also often thought about like the, the guilt and shame aspect of it. And like for, I think everybody who grew up in evangelicalism had like a touch of that, but it, for, for us, it was always like, it was never like a,
00:38:25
Speaker
There is no out for you. This is unending. You're never going to have what you want and you need to be happy with that. And don't screw once. Whereas for us, it was just like, hey, you need to put the brakes on and you'll have it you'll have your time in a couple of years when you meet your wife or whatever. i don't know. It's like really just dismally annoying.
00:38:49
Speaker
dark to think about it in those terms. Absolutely. and I think also when your parents are so indoctrinated into it thankfully, like we have the best relationship now and we laugh about it, but growing up, you know, their attitudes towards homosexuality, they were very, very homophobic because that's all they knew.
00:39:09
Speaker
um And some of the attitudes towards it, know, like my mom would always say to me that God has told her that there's a special woman waiting for me. um You know, and that thing that kind of sticks with you. Also told that gay sex is more addictive than heroin.
00:39:25
Speaker
Like someone's done that trial. Someone's done that trial. Can I see the results? That one was peer reviewed in the sense that people's peers watched it happen and then reviewed it.
00:39:37
Speaker
can i can I sign up for the trials? like like i yeah but and so It's been beautiful it's been beautiful like watching them kind of unlearn. The amount of straight people who have had sex and then do that for the rest of their life are going to talk about gay people being addicted to it. because it's like That's so wild. I've never met anybody like the amount of people I knew who had sex before they were married that talked endlessly about how they needed to stop, but never did.
00:40:08
Speaker
And they're going to have the audacity say that gay sex is, well it's not just sex. It's addicting as humans. It's not something that, you know, we physically and emotionally crave. It's just like, it's the gay part. That's like, it's so stupid.
00:40:21
Speaker
Yeah. Coming from the past, like the doughy pasture in the like, like the double breasted sport coat that doesn't fit who has 12 cross-eyed children.
00:40:36
Speaker
Wow. Exposed.
00:40:41
Speaker
That's not directed at any, any anybody in particular. So, okay. So I have a question about your ah schooling because So I don't know if you're aware of this, but Americans have a very weird relationship with their history at times.
00:41:02
Speaker
And like I went to a Christian school, you know, all the way through high school and stuff. And we've talked about it quite a bit, but like my history books were all written from this like really bizarre, far right nationalistic, like America is, you know, God's one and true nation sort of thing. And they really glazed over like the ugly parts of our past. And they like kind of deified certain figures from the Confederacy. Like actually, you know, slavery was bad, but yeah,
00:41:37
Speaker
you know, a lot of these men were like good men of God and they had big revivals, you know, on in the Confederate camps and stuff. What does that look like in South Africa or Australia where, you know, you guys kind of have your own, you know, brutal history to reckon with in a way?
00:41:55
Speaker
It's completely ignored. I mean, I think what, what people don't understand is that Australia is not a religious country at all. Like, you know, we're one of the only, um, countries in the world not to reference God in the national anthem.
00:42:09
Speaker
Um, so it's, it's, it's very community based. It's not, um, it's not something that's written into, uh, the schooling at all.
00:42:20
Speaker
um and most families aren't, aren't religious in my experience, especially the the white population here are not religious. Um, Yeah, I would just say like, you know, the Christian science school, like it was a religious school, but it wasn't in all of the the lessons and all of that stuff. Like there was religious education that was mandatory and there was mandatory assemblies every week where you were singing hymns, which was so boring. And then the the principal ah preaching about
00:42:58
Speaker
stuff from this magical book that Mary Baker Eddy has written. um have to look into this book. Yeah. Feel free to. That sounds interesting. We're on an odyssey through the Book of Mormon right now.
00:43:12
Speaker
Oh, really? um Yeah. It's a good show. But yeah, I mean, I can't speak too much on it. Like, I feel like all I can speak to is really like the place in culture that we were at when I was at school. Yeah.
00:43:28
Speaker
It just wasn't, it wasn't religious, but they were, there was like religious communities within the school. And it almost seemed like their families were very, very involved with the school because they um adopted the same ideology.
00:43:49
Speaker
So like being outside of that, it was almost like, I don't feel like my achievements were necessarily celebrated as much as the ones that were kind of on the inner circle. I'm talking so much shit about the school.
00:44:03
Speaker
You had said that no one forced you to go there. ah sorry. i yeah here go I snorted and then I hit my mic.
Transition from Public to Christian Science School
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You said no one forced you to go there.
00:44:16
Speaker
um so was it... did you was that your choice was it did you just were your parents like let's go here and you were like yeah fine I guess I was uh I was a very like so I originally went to a government school like a public school don't know if you guys call it the same thing just like a public school yeah so I originally went to that and I was very very naughty and you know bullied very heavily and you know would kind of just try and do anything to fit in. And it was kind of, it was almost like a pop, a popularity contest of like who could be the most disruptive in class.
00:44:52
Speaker
And my parents could see the kind of path that I was going down. um And South Africans stick together. So, um, one of our good family friends was actually the vice principal at the school at the time.
00:45:06
Speaker
Um, and I had to like go through like rounds of interviews and all of this fun stuff, um, to get into the school. Um, because I guess my parents felt like it was the best, the best thing for me. And, you know, it's not that it straightened me out. It's more just that I think I became a bit indoctrinated,
00:45:27
Speaker
um you know, while still being skeptical, I think it kind of brainwashed me a little bit. I just became, I became absolutely obsessed with like perfection, with just like being perfect in all areas of my studies.
00:45:43
Speaker
um But, you know, you can't escape the, your gayness, you know, there was the bullying continued there as well. But then I think it's things like realizing that you've got a crush on a guy and then, you know, being outed to the whole school while other lesbians are kicked out of the school.
00:46:00
Speaker
Oh, I don't know if I can say this shit. But yeah, I like, don't talk about this stuff, you know? So almost already caught and other people are getting caught doing gay shit and getting kicked out. Well, don't know if it was specifically because of that.
00:46:16
Speaker
I think it was mainly like drugs and alcohol and smoking that would get people kicked out. Um, But yeah, I didn't, I definitely felt like a black sheep there, um, at the school, um, because it was quite obvious that I was gay.
00:46:35
Speaker
Um, and I don't think that that was very accepted by the religion. for sure. What culturally, um, what, like in, uh, where you did your, you said you were in Australia for your teenage years.
00:46:50
Speaker
um you said it's fairly irreligious, uh, culturally, but, uh, but still homophobic culturally. Oh, absolutely. okay Absolutely. Yeah. It was very, very homophobic and very xenophobic.
00:47:06
Speaker
Um, I think a lot of Australians pretend that it's not a racist country, but it's extremely racist, um, which is horrible, you know, and there's, there's, reparations in place and you know i would say the majority i mean melbourne's a very like liberal city like it's very um i guess so you guys would call it woke is that is that uh trump's term but yeah it's like you know it's it's as it's probably like
Australia's Irreligious Nature
00:47:34
Speaker
as respectful as it gets within australia like the more sort of um isolated the more kind of right wing it kind of gets um
00:47:45
Speaker
But yeah, religion isn't a big thing, but that's where like you know there's this this this new guy who is running for prime minister or something like that, and he's kind of adopted Donald Trump's teachings, and you know it's it's all about... Yeah, that's going around right now.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, and it's kind of like, I don't understand how you can pick and choose when you care about it, because like if you're basing your campaign around religion proving that, say, like ho like homosexuality is wrong, or you know, fear tactics about immigrants and stuff like that. It's like, we're not a religious country. So anyone that's like feeding into that, shut the fuck up. And it's not like, it's literally in our, I don't know what we call it constitution or our equivalent of that, that like religion does not have a place in politics in Australia.
00:48:34
Speaker
So for them to kind of be using that as the foundation of a campaign, um I feel kind of ridiculous. um Turns out constitutions only matter in so far as they matter.
00:48:49
Speaker
Yeah. That doesn't sound like a smart thing to say, but it's like, I don't know. We're just watching ours be completely worthless right now. So it's a living document. yeah Yeah. um ah You said Australia has a form of reparations in place. You can't even say that word without getting publicly attacked. In America? Reparations. That is one the most polarizing. It has to be one of the most polarizing topics.
00:49:16
Speaker
ah Probably over universal health care. probably oh I can't think of a topic... that would be more polarizing for the left and the right. Um, for sure.
00:49:26
Speaker
Other than trans, you know, trans, but we, I don't know. Trans affirming care might be second to reparations. Um, gender affirming care, my bad. Um, but you have reparations.
00:49:43
Speaker
Um, definitely. Yeah. But it's, ah There was this big vote like a couple of years ago to include like an an Indigenous um like overview committee or something of the of the parliament.
00:50:01
Speaker
um And unfortunately, Australia voted no to that. I don't know why But um yeah, there's definitely a lot of things in place. There's a lot of government subsidies and a lot of support um for Indigenous communities.
00:50:12
Speaker
um But yeah, there has there has been quite a like racist sentiment to towards Indigenous communities since I've lived here, um which is kind of crazy because like it's their country. you know we're We're living in their country.
00:50:29
Speaker
um But definitely like places like Melbourne and Sydney are very um supportive now. you know a lot of A lot of people don't refer to Melbourne as Melbourne. They call it NARM.
00:50:40
Speaker
which is the indigenous um word for Melbourne. oh So there's been a lot of change. um I don't know. Did they get casinos?
00:50:51
Speaker
No, they didn't get casinos. Unfortunately not. Sorry. You win some, you lose some. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not the right person to be talking on on these topics. Alright, we'll shift topics. I know, these are tough ones.
00:51:07
Speaker
Alright, well you you have this moment, like I know you said you were always had a skepticism um and despite what happened right in that world, you do internalize the information and it deeply impacts your psyche, regardless of the skepticism. um It's, ah you know, a give and take there, but throughout your teenage years, um your level of by, like when were you, when did that skepticism culminate to just like, this is this is kind of fucking like nonsense to me.
00:51:48
Speaker
Hmm. I mean, my sister and I would always complain about going to church. Oh, am I still connected? Yes. We would always complain about going to church because it's so boring.
00:52:00
Speaker
um You know, it's just it's just hell for like two hours. It's so, so fucking boring. And my parents just got really sick of us complaining each time. then we started going to kind of like alternative churches.
00:52:12
Speaker
I think for me, like... the thing that kind of woke me up was like, I became really obsessed with like the Illuminati conspiracy theories. Hell yeah. And like, I was beyond obsessed with Lady Gaga growing up. Like I was so obsessed.
00:52:30
Speaker
And then this article popped up about it being like the Illuminati symbolism is, she's, it's devil worship and stuff like that. And, you know, and it just kind of like woke me up to like, just nonsense. Like,
00:52:44
Speaker
it's all kind of about control and it's all kind of about like from what you consider to be like good forms of control or bad forms. It's all just about like indoctrination and getting people to um adopt your ideals for whatever game, whether it be, you know, monetary or community.
00:53:05
Speaker
um I think I just gradually got sick of it. Like, I don't, I don't know if there was necessarily like a moment. I just,
00:53:16
Speaker
I think I just didn't feel like I had a place because I was gay. Yeah. I just, I just didn't feel accepted and I didn't feel like I ever would be. Um, but you know, in saying that, like I, I am grateful for my upbringing and I am grateful for, I guess the, the spiritual ah spirituality that my parents instilled in me through our religious journeys.
00:53:41
Speaker
um you know i do feel like i am still quite a spiritual person and there have been a lot of moments where you know I've genuinely felt like God is looking out for me or God has a purpose or is in control but my understanding of what God is has shifted so much like no it's not some man in the sky like I feel like it's it's everything all around it's so like expanded really I mean ah the view of God we were handed was very
00:54:12
Speaker
very limited, very enclosed. Exactly. Well, I i think that's that's where I sort of woke up was because I think I was so consumed with these conspiracy theories and stuff that I sort of started expanding my understanding of spirituality. And I'm like, why would you the government want to brainwash us through the media or something? well And it's like, maybe our souls are under attack. you know It's just like nonsense. But I'm like, I feel like I got to the point where I was expanding my knowledge of religion and spirituality past what I was learning at church. And I just kind of felt like, is there a reason why we're being limited? It's like, you know, you can only look at things in this certain way. You can only get this far in your journey um because then you're going to become the pastor or something like you're not, it's not, it's not teaching you to question. It's, it's questioning to a point, you know, you can only question about these sorts of things, but like, you know, if I'm like, well, why, this,
00:55:08
Speaker
pretty much all ancient religion kind of explaining sun worship or like astrology or astronomy. Like, why is it basically the same story? That's too far, you know? And it's kind of like, no, I feel like maybe there is merit in other, in other religions. Maybe there's different deities, maybe, you know, where we're born geographically has a, has an impact on who we are and our beliefs. Like, you know, but it's, it's just like,
00:55:38
Speaker
That is sacrilegious. you know that is That is against what we're being taught. There's a real obsession with like correctness and and evangelicalism.
00:55:50
Speaker
For sure. We grew up around apologetics as a really like lauded... you know, um hobby, I don't know, pursuit, where it was like, you know, you you need to have an answer ready for any any question that anyone might ask you. and Absolutely. These answers really aren't compelling. Like your arguments. are not so and You're just regurgitating what's been told to you. And you're looking at things in the same way that the pastor preached it to you. It's like, no, that's not actually comprehension. That's regurgitation.
00:56:26
Speaker
Like you're not actually thinking about it critically. um I should be opposed. I basically am with my meme pages. you based I'm a cult leader. You reach way more people than most pastors. that's Dude, yourre yourre youre your Jesus manifests as pregnant Sonic.
00:56:44
Speaker
That's niche. No, that's niche. but yeah ah But yeah. So you guys, like were you guys brought up Christian or Christian? Oh, yeah yeah. Yeah. So we met at Liberty University. Yeah, I'm sure you you're a you're plugged in guy. Jerry Falwell. There's a good Hulu documentary about ah his son who took over the university called God Forbid on Hulu.
00:57:13
Speaker
I'm not sure. how familiar are I'll check it out. We don't have Hulu yet, but I'm I'll be able to find it. Oh, what? Yeah. ah Just assume all streaming services are everywhere. This is probably the most fascinating thing I've heard tonight. i'm Not to be dismissive of your story.
00:57:27
Speaker
but Thank you. Thank you for dismissing my entire trauma. That's all right. he yeah But yeah, I was like, I was homeschooled.
00:57:39
Speaker
um Just... you know church all the time, youth group. I loved it though. I mean, I bought into it so hard. You're straight white man. So it helps. I tell you what, man, it really helps.
00:57:54
Speaker
ah You got some Christian posts. Like what what else? Yeah. yeah My, ah my three foot Woody Woodpecker plushie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Wait, where was the nose going in? ah Sorry, back to your story. Whose nose?
00:58:14
Speaker
The woodpeckers. Okay. but did you Did you sit on it? Okay, let's go back to your story. I'm just grinding on my woody woodpecker.
00:58:26
Speaker
No. Alright. Oh yeah, I went and got a bible degree. Um... biblical studies from a very conservative evangelical university.
00:58:40
Speaker
what's else's the ah What's the ultimate goal of studying something like that? Like to become a missionary or a pastor? or Yeah, great question. That's a question that I was asked the entire time and I never had an answer to.
00:58:53
Speaker
ah It's like the funniest thing to ask. i I know. it I actually, it is and I love it. i i I like how you ask that question. Because it's really like, oh, I know. No, I think the best part about that question is there was not no so vision.
00:59:12
Speaker
you've been asking it Genuinely. It's like, like you it's just you're speechless it's yes i am it's exposing how pointless what you did was you know because someone's like i'm genuinely curious because they can't fathom uh outside of being a pastor or missionary they can't fathom what you would do with it so when your answer isn't pastor or missionary you just sit there thinking i should have just fucking killed myself that one night i had that crisis of faith yeah
00:59:47
Speaker
I ask myself about it every day. I mean, you could become like a religious teacher at a I had the idea My wife and I did want to do be missionaries at one point.
00:59:58
Speaker
Um, we We talked about that a lot. That was the thing we told people we were going to do. At times, I think I told people that because for someone in complete and total limbo, it gave me some clout. you know you're Absolutely.
01:00:12
Speaker
oh if I just like project far enough out. Because missionaries, so if you're like, I want to be a pastor. They're like, so why aren't you working towards that right now? like That's an attainable goal that you can actively work towards in your local community.
01:00:25
Speaker
Missionaries like, I'll get to it. Yeah. So I think I just told people that there was, I i believed in the idea of it. So I was like,
01:00:38
Speaker
I think I convinced myself, like, yeah, we're going to do this. But there was always a part of me that knew, like, this is never going to fucking happen. I've never traveled. I don't want, I don't even like travel. like i I don't like going to new cities if I don't have someone to bring me to a place to go. Like, I will never go anywhere new and explore it on my own.
01:00:57
Speaker
And I'm over here I'm going to move to fucking Cambodia and do something special. I mean, the stuff that they would get my parents to in YWAM, like, they'll show us pictures it's like, I don't know why. There was someone like, I think it was in England and they were like dressed up as clowns and they were like dancing in the street.
01:01:15
Speaker
And that was like part of the part of their missionary work. And I'm like, what? You know, like, oh, I'm going be like, oh, those clowns over there. I'm going to do what they're doing. you know Dude, the missionary thing was so funny because like my church was really big on missionary support because, you know, that's the sort of thing that you can write a check to once a month.
01:01:38
Speaker
And then like you're done. Your obligations are over. Like you if you have to invest in your local community, like that takes work and investment and time. and That's the government's job. Like, ah, we're really into foreign missions. But like, so we always had this, like, there was a board on the, in the hallway that was like all of these little pins in it around the world of missionaries that we supported.
01:02:01
Speaker
And they would occasionally come through because the missionaries would have to, they'd have to go around and like campaign and lobby support for their next like four year stint in, don't know, East Timor or wherever.
01:02:13
Speaker
And, uh, It was a hilarious cast of characters that would come through because some of them had been grifting off of this deal for their entire lives.
01:02:25
Speaker
And like the ones that always cracked me because we we did have like a couple of families that we supported that like went to Papua New Guinea and like carved out an airstrip and like committed like ah an indigenous language to paper like and then translated the Bible, which.
01:02:42
Speaker
ah It's pretty impressive. You know, they they always had cool stories and pictures and they'd bring like, you know, bow and arrows and spears and everybody liked when they came. And then there would be weapons of murder.
01:02:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah then Then you'd have the weird family that are missionaries in Amsterdam show up. And it's like, it's clear. It's clear that this is how this nutty. We've assimilated.
01:03:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's like that's it's clearly that's how this like nutty white dude completely isolated his family from like the rest of humanity was like, I'm going to move somewhere where they're the where we don't speak the language. Yeah, I'm not going to try to speak the language at all.
01:03:26
Speaker
And then I'm going to force my family through a series of humi humiliation rituals where you hand out tracks and do like goofy music ministry stuff or clown service. That's almost an indoctrination in itself. you know like It's indoctrinating your family to like see the world through your eyes and also see you as...
01:03:47
Speaker
Like a pasta almost. like Yeah. you Especially that isolat when an isolation aspect comes into it. It's like you're basically describing a cult. A cult of family. Isolation is a dangerous... ah It's very dangerous.
01:04:04
Speaker
They were culty. They were like really unsuccessful cults. I do feel like, though, I got to make your own congregants. I really feel like just this brief conversation has really redefined my retirement plan.
01:04:24
Speaker
And I feel like it might be helpful. Like, it might be helpful to. Have like a new found conversion, right?
01:04:35
Speaker
Dive back into the church and then just pick a dope fucking place to become a missionary to and just solicit funding. I feel like I'll work on like i when I was because I knew of missionaries and like there were there are people who were missionaries whose, you know, Instagrams I follow, whatever they would.
01:04:56
Speaker
They. Knew what they were doing was bullshit. They were never really committed to it. And they eventually got out of it because they're like, they just felt the guilt of like, they were still Christian, but they're like, I don't really know what we're doing. There's no real like, there's no real like concept or plan or anything.
01:05:17
Speaker
It's like you just move there. Yeah. Or result. Like you just move there to say you're going to talk to these people about this thing or try to start a church or I don't even know. So they there was a lot of like guilt and frustration of like, I don't have a real job. I'm not doing anything.
01:05:33
Speaker
And I go, the the people who felt that guilt, it's because. they still were good people and cared. And I think that by the time I'm 55, 60, I might just not anymore. I think I might just be so beaten out of me that I'm like, yeah, I'll take your money and I will go to a cool place and I will report back every few months about like, about like the, the, the crawl spaces I shot back after rain storm.
01:06:04
Speaker
That sounds pretty ideal. Yeah. But I mean, what were you saying? Like, I, I do feel like, you know, everyone that I did encounter ah like, in my childhood going to the church, like, I do feel like they were all good people, you know, I don't, I don't feel like, you know, anyone was evil or, you know, but it's kind of like people look for connection or people look for a meaning, ah meaning in life, you know, and some people get that from religion. Some people get that from porn, you know, but like,
01:06:35
Speaker
I'm sorry. I don't get meaning anymore. Nobody gets it from their local bowling alley anymore.
Exploring Alternative Spiritual Practices
01:06:42
Speaker
You guys didn't laugh. But um yeah, i then I think also like, you know, you can define churches like anything, you know, like I think when and my parents started taking us to like alternative kind of churches when I was a teenager as as a teenager because- What is alternative kind of church? don't know, just like more kind of like- like community groups almost like it was ah like younger pastors, you know, and like, just like, yeah, yeah. They were like, and they were like, hippies men had a bass player, not really full, but full band, but, um, I think it's like, you know, my parents started saying like, you know, they had like a bit of a wine club with some of their friends and they would meet like once a week and they'll have wine. And, you know, we were discussing, it's kind of like that is church to us, you know, connecting,
01:07:31
Speaker
with people that you have having having deep conversations without someone preaching at you. um let's ah That's oftentimes like what we talked about is like, like the best part of church in, in you know, from the outside looking in, cause I'm not involved anymore. What's the tea break where you got the cookies and like the hot hot chocolate up the back.
01:07:54
Speaker
Communion Sunday. We don't even talk about tea publicly. It's coffee here, baby. Body shots of grape juice. Yeah. Communion was the best. When you got a little bit of grape juice and like those wafer biscuits, oh, made it worth it.
01:08:09
Speaker
Yeah. I just suck on them until they turn like to mush. Did you ever get wine for communion? Did they ever do wine? Yeah, we did. We definitely did. Yeah. Yeah. Evangelical church hates that here.
01:08:22
Speaker
Sorry. I cut you off, um Casey. You were saying the best part of church. Oh, I just think it's like, um, like, looking at it from the outside for the most part, like where it's successful and where it seems like it adds the most to people's lives. And you could look at it and be like, I genuinely see a benefit here. And I think this is a good thing is like the community aspect of it.
01:08:45
Speaker
And that's really what, like, I think like my church growing up was really missing that, you know, I went, it was okay for me because I went to school with all the same people I went to church with and we were all pretty close friends and stuff like that. But I look back at like,
01:09:01
Speaker
You know, my parents eventually left that church because like they went there for, you know, 10 years and didn't really have any friends there.
01:09:12
Speaker
Really? You know, because there's just everybody was very like, ah you show up on Sunday, you say all the nice things, you shake everybody's hand, and then you leave. And there's nothing else, you know. And they started going to some more like modern-y churches with praise bands and stuff like that. And got into groups with other people their age and and like enjoyed that a lot more.
01:09:33
Speaker
i did. yeah I really hated their new church. Oh, for sure. And I despised going there. my god, the craziest thing was like... ah Do you guys have Crossways? Do you know what that is Crossways Church?
01:09:46
Speaker
I don't think It's kind of like Hillsong. I was going add, Hillsong literally was my fault next question. really Oh, it's such... like You're going to watch a rock concert. like you're not I don't know. But yeah, there was this massive church like just up the road from my parents' house. they They still sort of live in that area.
01:10:06
Speaker
um We went there a couple of times, and it was like... insane like the biggest stage you've ever seen there were like three jumbotrons and like smoke machines the um uh the baptismal pool was like on the stage and like it'd lift a flap and like smoke would come out and there was like lasers and so it's heated it's just crazy you didn't freeze your nuts off and you got baptized like the rest of us fuck you i got baptized as an adult i i felt like you i'm such don't know i'm i'm definitely like a bit of a cooked cunt can you guys say that last year
01:10:44
Speaker
and i think Actually, the word cunt definitely has a different connotation in the cooked vagina. In other cultures. But I do use it.
01:10:57
Speaker
It's very, very bad. in Australia, it's like every second word that we say. I love that. I think I was about 24. Oh, for sure. and Because you're white and you're straight, like for sure. um I think i I... And I'm right about everything, so.
01:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, and everyone here is right about everything. Right. I've struggled with mental health a lot like for like most, like I would say my entire life. um And I like i feel like God has been on my the journey with me.
01:11:31
Speaker
And like when I was like 24, so like quite ah like seven years ago or something, like I was like, I feel like God is telling me to get baptized. So I got baptized and that was it.
01:11:44
Speaker
And then I was like, now what? um
01:11:49
Speaker
What's the next thing? But um yeah, it was a bit a bit random. Now you get circumcised.
01:11:57
Speaker
Hell no, this is Australia, we don't we don't do that it Is that uncommon in Australia? That's a cooler way to be You want you really asked me about the ratio of circumcision i think Because I had thatmer shake i have to you have to have this conversation um Yeah, i I would say most people are uncircumcised here Nice, as the good lord intended Yeah It tastes better. No, I'm joking. I can't. You got to have a little lip hanging out your shorts at Bondi beach or whatever. Right.
01:12:31
Speaker
For sure. For sure. um But yeah, it's just not a very religious country. Like, I don't know. And then also in saying that it's like you are circumcised and you convert to Judaism, you have to like get a little slice on your dick ah as like a ceremonial. so As an adult. adult Yeah. If you like, you have to.
01:12:52
Speaker
Yeah. If you're going to convert to Judaism, this is what I've heard. i hope Well, there goes my holiday holiday plans. If you're if you're converting to Judaism, like legit and not just like showing up and pretending ah like if you're really going through the motions and you're obviously if you're not circumcised, you have to get circumcised.
01:13:13
Speaker
Does the moral sterilize it the same way if you're an adult? i don't know i don't know if i don't know if they do it. Adult circumcisions might be a little bit bloodier than and baby circumcisions.
01:13:27
Speaker
um I have the weirdest one right now. don't know if I'm saying anything correct. I don't know if anything I'm saying is accurate. Yeah, you're doing a lot of talking. and don't know. and I do know you've got to get circumcised. i don't know how the I don't know the logistics, but I have just heard that if you are already circumcised, you have to get the little ceremonial slice on your dick.
01:13:49
Speaker
And now maybe, look, maybe if you aren't, like they can, so even if you're uncircumcised, they can just give you that little slice and then you can just like, you know, rain check the circumcision. You're like, well I'll get to it.
01:14:03
Speaker
um'm good But like it's a month going to get to it. It's on the This is the American healthcare system. You can't just go in and ask for it and then move on. like i have to I had to schedule that shit. i i I've gone through the most- die in the meantime, you go to Jewish purgatory, though.
01:14:23
Speaker
If you die in the endless open mic acts until you finally like ah posthumously ah slice your dong. yeah Wow. Anyway. like i he's like i don don um' I don't know much about this, but I am willing to speculate on it endlessly.
01:14:40
Speaker
Yes. i That's kind of the m MO here. ah That's why I'm very adamant that nobody ever quotes me on anything. like this is Same. We're just having fun. this is like This isn't Joe Rogan. This is just people having fun. I've defamed my school. I've de defineed defamed my churches.
01:14:58
Speaker
I've I don't know. Who knows? Who knows? Now, as ah as a musician, were you ever in a praise band? Hell no. But I would, like, as a child, i remember I would be, like, like I would love the the worship, like, the worship during church.
01:15:17
Speaker
And I'd be like, sometimes like if the lyrics really spoke to me, I would like cry and I would be like, stay I'd be like, the Holy Spirit. I'll be like talking tongues. Was always those ambiguously gay lyrics that spoke to you?
01:15:29
Speaker
Like, come on me, Jesus. Like, like not on my face, Jesus. There's always so much almost gay shit in Christian music. No, but I think because like my, like, that's so funny.
01:15:43
Speaker
But like my like my lens through the world was always like what I am fundamentally is wrong and I'm doing something evil. So like anything that was like, you know God can heal you and God can change you and all of that stuff, I would be like, it's speaking to me.
01:16:00
Speaker
I'd be like, there's hope. Confusing hope with like the reason for your suicidal thoughts is hilarious too.
01:16:12
Speaker
well yeah Yeah, it gets confusing. yeah Life's not so black and white. Yeah, exactly. was sir Was there anybody that you remember like... um Was anybody like the opposite that like they maybe like... Encouraged?
01:16:33
Speaker
Yeah, or like just were supportive in some like vague way or something? Well, my pastor taught me about fisting, which was really helpful. um Honestly, no, there was no one. it felt, it felt like the biggest secret ever, um you know, that I would only, I would take to my deathbed. Like I was like, no one is ever, ever going to know.
01:17:00
Speaker
um I would say no there was no one. But I was also like, I think, you know, because I was, I was abused so young, like I developed like a lot of sort of codependencies and like dysfunctionalities, I guess, in like the way I would interact with people. So I was put into therapy at four years old.
01:17:21
Speaker
So I've been like getting therapy for a very, very long time because like wow there was something wrong with me or like I was too feminine or flamboyant, you know um which is kind of, you know I see it as, ah and it was always religious counselors.
Therapy and Religious Counseling
01:17:36
Speaker
So I do see that as like a little form of like kind of conversion therapy. Also known as not counselors. Yeah, absolutely. like wes Show me your qualification. You just volunteered at the church five years ago. Now you're...
01:17:50
Speaker
But um yeah, so I honestly, no, I don't think so. it's on It's felt like a completely solo journey for me. um And then my parents kind of changed their views and came on board um maybe like 12 years ago or so. And it's been fine since then. But that trauma kind of like sticks there. And like, um no, I don't think there was anyone that was supportive.
01:18:14
Speaker
Is that a conversation with, um, that, that it's easy to have, or that has been had with your family? Do you guys talk about that? Like the impact it had on you versus them? Definitely. oh And they absolutely. And they very, very shameful about it. Like they feel very shameful. Um, and they apologize all the time because like, I'll joke about it and they'll apologize. And I'm like, I'm not looking for an apology. And i don't,
01:18:39
Speaker
i don't have yeah I don't have any ill feelings towards them.
Evolving Relationship with Parents and Religion
01:18:43
Speaker
And, you know, I feel like they genuinely were doing what they thought was right. You know, if your church that you have sacrificed your entire life for is telling you that your son will go to hell because he's feminine, who the hell am I like to tell, that like hold it against them?
01:19:01
Speaker
um And I know that it weighs on their conscience and they say a lot of stuff, but I'm like, I have no judgment. And like, just because I'm gay doesn't mean that I'm a like perfect person, you know, that's a bit of, i don't know. I've heard different from other gays. So, you know, but it's been good. Like, I feel like it's strengthened our relationship. And then, you know, my journey with my solo journey with spirituality has kind of opened them up as well. Like, I think like sort of what I was saying about like astrology, it's astrology or astronomy. One of those, not, not,
01:19:36
Speaker
Star signs. I think astronomy. Astronomy is star signs. ah so That's astrology. Well, I remember astrology. Well, I was like reading through like, you know, just like how I feel like, I don't know. My kind of feelings is sometimes like ancient cultures saw the sun as God and like based their kind of the theologies around like this massive shining orb appears in the sky once a day and then kind of base their religions around that. And when I started drawing those like parallels to my parents and being like, well, um you know, this religion has basically the exact same story of like a death and a reser resurrection and
01:20:21
Speaker
you know, but I do think that maybe it's, it's mirroring kind of the sun or like star signs, they seeing stories and star signs, it kind of like shifted them a little bit. And they started like, digging deeper, not to say that, like, I had any kind of like, historic, esoteric, like knowledge when I was like, 18.
01:20:41
Speaker
eighteen um But I think me questioning, like, they've said to me that it was like me sort of constantly questioning them their beliefs really like push them to to change that's why you might be the only child who ever ah changed their parents mind about this shit ever i'm very persistent i wasn't i mean i be my force uh three siblings and i are like uh
01:21:13
Speaker
We're like at a, there's a little bit of a boiling point here and there based on some of the siblings' actions based on, yeah, religion. So like, ah my parents are still like deeply invested.
01:21:27
Speaker
um i i have a good relationship my parents. I fucking love my parents. Yeah. I have a, especially like, you know, I have a, I feel like i have a very open relationship with my mom where it's easy to talk about a lot of things.
01:21:41
Speaker
I don't feel like she always hears me. So mom, if you're listening, now's your chance to hear me. um You're not. I think you, I think she dipped after like episode 10. She was just over checking this shit out. That was me. My mom with my memes. But it's, um I, you know, I feel like I'm saying things and she's,
01:22:02
Speaker
has this idea about what she wants for her kids or who they are. And I was, ah i was the last to hold on to Christianity. Religion. Yeah. And, ah I mean, when we started this podcast, oh like four and a half years ago, um and at that time I still identify as a Christian.
01:22:22
Speaker
Um, wow. more like, I think i would been more apt to use words like post-Christian. Like I had very little ah dogma. But it it sticks with you. Like i I would always say like, you know, when people ask me like, are you religious? And I'll be like, no, but I do feel like the one religion that I,
01:22:39
Speaker
closely identify with is Christianity. You know, it's like, that's all I know. I don't even think there's anything wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. And for people who still use it, like the struggle for me is like, it's not, it's hard to identify with something that literally means nothing in this country because you can be, you can be a complete leftist, socialist,
01:23:03
Speaker
whatever. And then you can be a total fascist right-wing psychopath and you can all just be like, we're Christian. So like, yeah, that's just, it's just fucking worthless terminology to me. the Absolutely.
01:23:14
Speaker
But like, absolutely. I held on to it. I held onto the terminology long enough where like, and, um, would still go to like a church. It was like a church community that disintegrated over COVID where like my skepticism and my refusal to, to,
01:23:34
Speaker
want to engage in certain conversations or pray or whatever, like it was welcome. Like I just felt it was a, I loved the people and I, and there was no confrontation or challenge, uh, with just existing the way that I am, uh, doing this, whatever.
01:23:53
Speaker
So cool. Like, But I think what's so wild is like, you know, despite that relationship, the ah to bring this back to, you know, the whole parent thing is like, um um my mom is likely to do this thing where like, she still talks to me and she still talks to all of us. Like, like we ah almost like we're in high school and we're still Christian.
01:24:16
Speaker
And I know she knows we're, we're all, we're not, I, I, And I just don't, I think that's what's so frustrating is like you, you having those open conversations with your parents and and seeing them shift their worldview ah versus ah continuing to just act like everything is the way that it was.
01:24:39
Speaker
And, and now my mom has recently said things about how she's, was unaware. I don't know. I can tell this is really hard for her, a hard time for her right now not because she's mentioned things to me about like, well, I didn't, you know, I didn't know this was so awful for you guys. um Or I didn't know this was so harmful. I'm like, and what it really, what, like, this isn't about you. ah Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:05
Speaker
I'm a parent. I have kids. And I know that like, if, if at any point in my life, my kids go, X, Y, and Z was really shitty under your watch. I don't feel responsible for that. So I understand this is no slight or shade of my mom. Like I hear where she's coming from. I understand it.
01:25:27
Speaker
um And it's just, but it is really hard to have that conversation. And despite all the things I've said on this podcast or all the conversations we've had ah that are the things that I've kind of dropped, it's like,
01:25:43
Speaker
You had this still like this. I don't where where I feel like we're just talking past each other sometimes. And anyway, that's super long winded. I'm done either the courtesy of letting her keep up the illusion.
01:25:57
Speaker
that That's a labor of love. it Honestly, that's part of it. But yeah i love hearing your story, man. To me, like ah the only reason I talked for seven and a half minutes without you guys cutting me off is because like this is something that matters a lot to me. And I i want for myself um and for our family, like my siblings, my parents ah to have to be able to have that conversation.
01:26:22
Speaker
But I think that comes and it comes it comes from the individual. And I think it's like, you know, you have to take responsibility for your own issues. Like, who the hell would I be 30 years old still blaming my parents for, like, my issues in my life?
01:26:36
Speaker
You have to get to the point where it's like, you know, yeah, some things have happened. Well, yeah, some things have happened. And yeah, some things that, like, they did, did potentially impact me negatively. But, like, we've chosen to work on our relationship and get to a point where you know, we're, yeah, we all genuinely love each other. We have open, deep conversations, but we don't feel like we need to go to church every Sunday to be a good person.
01:27:03
Speaker
um you know, and I'm really grateful because, you know, there's some horror stories about people who have been completely disowned after coming out. um So yes, like there were some things that happened, but I don't hold onto it now. And I think I can't speak to anyone else because I, you know,
01:27:22
Speaker
everyone's trauma is subjective for sure. Yeah. And maybe some things are i irreconcilable, but you know, to still hold onto things like that, it's kind of like take some responsibility.
Critique of Religious Texts and Societal Views
01:27:34
Speaker
Great. And that's a good little point to make is there are things that can happen that can yeah create a rift and a divide that makes it unsalvageable unless someone is willing to do a lot of work to, to repair that.
01:27:50
Speaker
get a circumcision or something like that. Like yeah yeah spiritual circumcision, circumcision of the heart. Did you ever hear that? Did anyone ever talk about the circumcision of the heart? Casey, you would have to know that.
01:28:01
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe I'm interested there. It's co-opting Judaism, which is what Christianity loves to do. yeah They're like, Oh, we, Judaism. ah It's like,
01:28:17
Speaker
christianity is just better judaism like unless we're talking about israel then we will sell them trillions of dollars worth of bombs to blow up their enemies uh christians are weird children i know those dangerous children in palestine are yeah i just i just a rocket i just struggle with the self-righteousness of christians oh now i'm getting really into it but yeah just like you know You're a horrible person, but you go to church on Sunday, so you're going to go to heaven. or like, you can do whatever the fuck you want and then repent on your deathbed and you go to heaven. him
01:28:49
Speaker
No, I'm sorry, but I do kind of believe in karma. Yeah. I mean, that's fair. Don't ruin this for me, man. I'm going to become a missionary to retire and then apologize on my last breath.
01:29:03
Speaker
And if you're going to take that away from me right now, this is going to be but it's really difficult. It's so nonsensical where it's like, you know, like literally what the Bible is saying is like, there's nothing that you have to do to win God's unconditional love.
01:29:17
Speaker
And then it's like, oh, but you have to go to church. You have to tithe. You have to get baptized. You have to do all of this. you know and And then it's also like you know God – You have to not be a Canaanite. Fruit of the Spirit, you know? And like the Bible is saying like you know God does not judge anyone. But then it's like we as Christians are going to take that and then judge select select groups of people based on the word i'm just like what the bible does talk about uh god judges so harshly and inconsistently throughout it but the god doesn't judge anyone is such like a goofy trope of like i you really you can just read a couple chapters and be like oh god judges everyone in wildly inconsistently our low quality our lower court judges
01:30:06
Speaker
that determine whether or not children should stay with their families are better at being consistent than the God of the Bible. it as it's For sure. And it's like, why, why are like, why do we give so much like credence to like a text that was written such a long time ago? Like,
01:30:24
Speaker
Why were only specific people prophets? Like, don't know. It's just a lot of nonsense. And I also feel like the story of Adam and Eve really, like, sets the tone for, like, sex is wrong like, premarital sex. You're going to be, like, kicked out of the Garden of Eden. As far as I know, Adam and Eve never got married.
01:30:45
Speaker
Exactly. They just shelved a couple of apples and, you know, had a good time. Had a few inbred children that murdered each other day one. I don't know. But it's just, yeah, I feel like there's a lot, like, don't know. It was really strange, actually. Like, I don't know if finishing in a sec, but one last random story. I went to South Africa few years back. I hadn't been back for, like, 11, 12 years or something like that.
01:31:11
Speaker
um And I met a guy there, he he was in his 40s and he was also gay and Christian. And it was so bizarre. Like we actually had like the exact same worldview, the exact same traumas, just the the same experiences growing up specifically gay in the church and maybe South African falls into it as well. But it's just crazy that like, you know, there's,
01:31:39
Speaker
there's such a like unique trauma that comes from growing up religious um that like a lot of people don't understand and and don't relate to.
01:31:50
Speaker
And that's why everyone should be sympathetic towards me all the time. my My trauma is worse than everyone else's. I'm talking shit. It's not, it's not.
01:32:01
Speaker
um But yeah, that, that was, I think that was mine. You win in this room right now.
01:32:09
Speaker
Oh, well. But I also traumatize people online, so... yeah Ah, all right. You know what? Posting a guy in feathered armor screaming from the top of a picnic table.
01:32:21
Speaker
Oh, what's his name? That's not so bad. Social repose or something? that And tonight will be the night that I... Oh, my God. Yeah. wow love that Why a picnic table?
01:32:34
Speaker
I don't know, but I do find it funny like when people... like ah when they they They also get self-righteous about like, this is not cringe. Like, you know, like stop fucking fool arguments, like sending me like paragraphs, like why this specifically is not cringe. And I'm like, this isn't a dissertation, idiot.
01:32:54
Speaker
I've always said cringes in the eye of the beholder. Like I've always said that. And I'm like, I'm like, what I'm trying to show is that everyone is cringe. Like,
01:33:06
Speaker
oh, you might see something as cringe. don't know. And then it's like, it became so woke. Like, you know, I can only post like straight white men being cringe. Cause like some, if I post a female, it's like, why are you all, are you misogynistic? And I'm like, oh yeah no. And then I post gay people being cringe. they're like, oh so you're homophobic. And I'm like,
01:33:23
Speaker
can I not laugh at my own culture? Like, what the fuck? You know? It's so funny. And the, ah i I don't know if the jest was noticed, but, and I won't bombard you, i but I did send you Me?
01:33:41
Speaker
me ah Yeah, sent read. I don't know who that was. and don't know who that is. bur I don't know who that is. She was DJ Tanner on Full House. Did you not know Full House? Yeah.
Social Media Influencers and Online Identity
01:33:52
Speaker
um I wasn't born in the 1960s. I have been on te and i know i know what Full House is, but I never really watched it. So she was a main character on it. her but so her brother is... um is, um, Kirk Cameron.
01:34:10
Speaker
And he is an insufferable nightmare of a human, but he was also on a nineties sitcom. Um, and he converted to Christianity and became, he's just, he's just the worst.
01:34:22
Speaker
He's the worst. How do you convert to Christianity? Like what we, that's a reoccurring conversation here, like later conversions, but Candace Cameron Burr is, uh, she's also a Christian.
01:34:36
Speaker
And because of her brother and she, she's, she participates. it She's part of a, um, what is it called? The, the American family network. I i forget what American family, American family. It's, um, it's like, a It's like a Hallmark Channel. hall eleven It's like Hallmark, but Christian. oh god Not specifically Christian, but it seeps in a little too much.
01:35:09
Speaker
um So yeah, she is ah just, I think she's one of the highest cringiest person's person per i'll check her out i found it funny but i didn't know who that was i thought it was really like it was really she had one that i i posted a good bit last ah last halloween where it was like her in a i don't even know what the song was do you remember this one casey i think christian nightmares posted it was like oh yeah Have you talked to them?
01:35:39
Speaker
Have you talked to Christian nightmares? We have had Christian nightmares on the podcast. Oh, cool. Yeah. He's awesome. He's a great guy. He actually, um, is and driving a reasonable, his, he grew up in a, in a reasonable driving distance from where I live, which I think is fun.
01:35:58
Speaker
Oh, cool. But yeah, anyway, Candace Cameron Burt, very cringe. I'll check it out. It's a really good addendum to the story. What are you trying to say about Candace Cameron Burt?
01:36:10
Speaker
I don't know. i guess I lost my train of thought. Are you saying camembert like the cheese? Cameron, Candace Cameron Burr, right? camerara Yeah. Yeah.
01:36:21
Speaker
Okay. She's just a very cringe person. That's all. Uh, but I, so so I sent you the video and I was like, Oh God, is it, is it cringe to be Candace Cameron Burr? But that's the, like the most common one, like top comment.
01:36:34
Speaker
Is it cringe to X, Y, and Z? yes oh yeah oh he's gonna think i'm like being really serious right now and then i felt oh no no oh don't feel self-conscious the shit people send me is insane but then people get really offended if i don't post their like stupid video of their like auntie like sneezing
01:36:54
Speaker
at the table you know and they're like why didn't you post it and i'm like because it's not funny it's like so subjective but Your one was funny. Is that what want me to say?
01:37:06
Speaker
I don't. That's what he wants you to say. I actually love that you just shit on me like that. Send me shit. I find it funny. I had no expectation that you would reshare it.
01:37:17
Speaker
I genuinely watched a cringe video shortly after talking to you and was like, I guess I'll just send this to him. You can send me some. You can send me some. It's fine.
01:37:28
Speaker
yeah we I love it. We had this... ah We had this couple on at one point and we got a lot of crap for it because they were like brought this up earlier. They very right wing aligned and stuff. But like they they had this like ministry going called two for Christ.
01:37:46
Speaker
Oh my God. They they would do like musical acts together where like they had this Christian version of i of the Tiger. That sounds horrible. oh my God. It's so bad. And like would love it if you shared It it was so.
01:38:00
Speaker
Yeah. So so we have been offended. Oh, no, they would. That's what that's what kind of that would make it difficult for to do what you do, because like these people, we had them on We kind of joked on the whole time. They looked ridiculous, like on the show, but they're fine. They're nice enough. They're just, you know, they're cringe.
01:38:20
Speaker
Yeah. so then like after we had him on, he puts out this rap video about lifting for Christ and like getting muscly for Christ. And it, it's, it sucks. It just Christian rappers shit.
01:38:36
Speaker
I mean, we grew up like, yeah, we would listen to like exclusively Christian music. Oh, yeah, there we go. Veggie, veggie tales and like all that nonsense.
01:38:47
Speaker
And then I fell in love with Britney Spears and that was controversial. And, Yeah, she was ah she was she was a controversial figure at the time. Still is, sort of. pastor said a lot of real weird things about her.
01:39:02
Speaker
Really? oh like yeah. Like, in sermons? Dude, it's crazy to go back and just watch, like, interviews with, like, talk shows and stuff from back then, and the kind of, like, intrusive, awful questions they would ask for. For Insane.
01:39:18
Speaker
They did kind of similar things to Taylor Swift, I feel like. They would just ask her like these really rude questions about like, so who are you sleeping with these days? I know it's probably a lot of people and you're like, i sure 17 psycho yeah justin bieber was like 12 and he was getting like ridiculously horrific comments it from people even like so sexual like sexual in nature oh for sure but if you were a little older ha ha that's why i feel like a lot of society is kind of like built off of like pedophilia like especially like media culture and that's like one thing that like i definitely draw the line on with humor
01:39:57
Speaker
and like with my pages specifically, is like like all we can do is like try and safeguard children. you know like if there's one thing that we can fucking do, it's just try and protect children. and like you know Especially with what happened to me, but just in general. like it's so disgusting, you know?
01:40:18
Speaker
And then like, you know, like I feel like TikTok is sometimes basically pedophilia. Like it's very like barely legal looking girls wearing like absolutely nothing, like promoting their only fans and stuff. And it's like, you know, people are attracted to this because they attracted to this like youth, youthful looking unattainable female. And it's like, I feel like Justin Bieber, like,
01:40:40
Speaker
That was like kind of pedophilia. like For sure. They're like these compilation videos of all these weird times that he... was being interviewed and it was like, it really was things like, oh my God, if you were a couple of years older and like, yeah, like kind of like awkwardly putting their hands on his shoulder or like so yeah sexually intrusive questions.
01:41:02
Speaker
Did he, for instance? Yeah, it was Casey. Finish your, uh, two for Christ's sake. Cause I know where you're going. oh yeah Yeah. So he puts out this awful rap song and then like messages us and is like,
01:41:14
Speaker
hey I know you guys know Christian nightmares. Can you like send it to him and tell him to post it? And I'm like, yeah did he post it No.
01:41:26
Speaker
Okay. When you start asking for it, it's, it's pretty lame. It's, it's, did you even send it to him? No, I don't think so. Yeah. I didn't think you you did.
01:41:38
Speaker
But let's that's like that's the Christian equivalent of like, he, it's cause it's like, he knows that Christian nightmares would post things like he's doing based on the quality of it, but has no shame in it. It's like kind of, it it was kind of like an inception moment where you're just like, no, we're, well this is done. This isn't cute anymore. It's just annoying that you would do that.
01:42:05
Speaker
For sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I post a lot, like, quite a few Christian things like yeah in ah in a cringy way. And yeah, I do get it quite a bit of backlash. it's It's always Americans.
01:42:17
Speaker
yeah It's always Americans and they're wearing hats that are a little bit more red than the one that you're wearing. little bit red with a little bit of white writing on the front.
01:42:28
Speaker
Yeah. um So I do like, I like, and that's the thing is like, fuck they want, like whenever there's like something political going on or something like people, are like, why did you not speak about this? And I'm like, I'm a fucking meme page. like why Like, where do we draw the line? And like that's what I hated like during like COVID and all this stuff. It's like, why are we giving so much, like I don't know, so much weight to the words of people that have zero like political like knowledge? I don't know. And it's like, why I'm a meme page. I'm like, why do you care that I didn't,
01:43:06
Speaker
comment on this and like would you even want me to and then like i post stuff and they're like oh you're woke you're obviously liberal and i'm like i'm not even from america i don't care about your politics i mean i guess you don't even fit into those binary it's like you have a different binary but i guess like the american politics like especially in like another western country like australia like your politics do kind of affect us in a sense.
01:43:33
Speaker
Um, that I just, I don't care about politics and I don't want to like associate one way or another online. Yeah. It's just annoying to have to feel like your humor has to be political. Like, well, they make it political everything, you know, every single thing I post, it's like, Oh, you can draw politics in it. and Like,
01:43:58
Speaker
had some things absolutely blowing up on my other my other page my moist memes and it's just the most random the most random shit and it starts becoming political and i'm like what so a lot of the time i just delete the post like when it starts becoming a political debate in the comments i just delete it i'm like i'm not dealing with this nonsense it does draw out the worst people alive shut up. Keyboard warriors. I've talked to enough of them in real life.
01:44:25
Speaker
Yeah. I used to be really affected by what people were saying. And like, especially like, cause I'm like, I guess I'm like, I have been open about my sexuality on my pages and things like that. and i used to get really, really offended. And then I just got to the point was like, you know what? If I actually don't care about it, it doesn't upset me.
01:44:47
Speaker
So now I just or i don't open messages often. i was surprised. like i was ah Because I guess I knew that about you.
01:44:58
Speaker
But like like I just but kind of prepared for tonight. I was like, ah let's see what's out there. I went and looked for like... You doosh. sorry. I'm sorry.
01:45:11
Speaker
my search history yeah okay but i just went looking at there's like there is very little about you personally online like very few interviews or anything like that you're mysterious you're kind of like the steven paddock of indie pop oh i try i try i mean get it like i don't know i think i just i really for a long time was getting my whole like identity from running meme pages and like it became almost addicting, addictive, in the sense that, like, I was so obsessed with, like, controlling people's perception of me.
01:45:48
Speaker
um And then it got kind of, like, messy a few years back, where, like, people that I didn't know were just spreading, like, the most nasty shit. And, like, it started affecting me in my real life. And I was kind of just like, oh, my God, like,
01:46:02
Speaker
I can't be bothered with this
Music and Artistic Expression
01:46:04
Speaker
anymore. So I kind of just pulled back a lot. Like, I feel like I used to be very, very vocal, like, especially on my stories and like, I'll talk about all my traumas and stuff. And I was like, oh, I feel like having a, having a profile online, like a big profile, it's so easy to become like a perpetual victim where like, you're just complaining and like, because everyone follows you because they like you, it's like, they kind of just,
01:46:30
Speaker
ah validate those, um validate your feelings without really questioning your thought patterns or anything like that. So I just felt like for for my own mental wellbeing, I needed to pull back and just stop being as open as I wanted, as I been.
01:46:47
Speaker
That's such an insightful point, man. Yeah. I mean, I think there were times where like, you know, i'd call out people and stuff and I'm like, fuck, like when are the defamation suits coming? But don't know.
01:47:01
Speaker
but yeah I know. But yeah, I've been making music for a really long time and like that's sort of been my battle has been people follow me because of memes. and then like but i and and Sometimes people think that I'm like making music to like capitalize on this non-existent meme fame and I'm like, bitch, I don't care. I've been doing music before then. and this I do think that my like religious upbringing has has informed a lot of my music. like I write a lot about like psychology and relationship dynamics and family dynamics and stuff like that but it's cunty it's in a good way it's not it's it's not um it's like some vegetales vegetal stuff great music videos thank you i bomb music videos pretty awesome yeah that one so that one like fuck it should have done so well but then like youtube like limited it because it had like
01:47:55
Speaker
pills or something in it i was like oh that sucks i love when youtube pretends to be moral social media social media in general it's like fuck god um but yeah um but yeah when i when i saw you guys like popped up in my following and i was like growing up christian and then i like saw you guys were following i think it was my cringe or something like that i'm like okay they get it like because i feel i feel like my shit's like pretty niche And it's like it's a pretty like specific sense of humor.
01:48:26
Speaker
So like when people when I see like celebrities follow it or something like that, I'll be like, okay, they they're a little bit cooked. Dude, that must be fun seeing which celebrities follow.
01:48:37
Speaker
Yeah, who's been some interesting ones that you've seen come through? Well, when I heard Tinder Vest Reality, it was like every single person famous, like everyone ever. But like My Cringe, so like the original My Cringe got deleted as well and then I built it up again, but it's shadow banned, so it's kind of plateaued.
01:48:54
Speaker
But like Channing Tatum follows that. Channing Tatum, he gets around with his phone. Yeah, he was just mentioned the other day. in an interview we have coming up. I haven't spoken to him, but um so Sophie Turner.
01:49:08
Speaker
um I've spoken to Paris Jackson quite a bit. Yeah. Do you guys know that is? I don't actually know who that Michael Jackson's daughter. Oh, okay. Oh, wow.
01:49:20
Speaker
Yeah. But then I've, i've like like, I've had a lot of doors open for me because of it. Like, when I was living in l LA, like, I was doing sessions in Diplo's house because he followed Tinderverse reality. And, like...
01:49:31
Speaker
that's why I would go to a bar and people would just recognize me and it was like VIP everything. And it's like, because I post memes, like it's really crazy. Other people aren't posting of the consistency and like regularity that you are like, it's it's not nothing. That's it really, it's an eye. It's like,
01:49:50
Speaker
It requires work. That's what I think. It does. That's think as well. But it's not it's not my main... Because if it was as easy as you like feel like it maybe should understood as, we would be doing better social media-wise. It's not easy, yeah. like I've had a lot of friends try and start pages, and they ask for like shout-outs and stuff, and then they stop posting after like a week. And i'm like, no, you have to do it like constantly.
01:50:14
Speaker
But um yeah it's not my... main source of income anymore it's just sort of like part of my freelance business um so i i work like i work a lot and memes is like a tiny bit of it at this stage but it's what most people see i guess but i still love it i'm always like i should quit but nah i still i still love it sometimes you know it's like you you I feel like at least here, maybe everywhere, like you're kind of brought up on this idea. Like I just, how many times growing up you heard the statements like, well, if you, if you do something you love, then you never work a day in your life.
01:50:59
Speaker
And it's like the worst advice in the world, really. Cause it's like, absolutely. There is definitely something to be said about keeping some separation between like your livelihood and a thing that you enjoy so that you can just have it and not worry about monetizing it every 30 seconds and stuff, you know, and like, yeah you know, if it, if it goes that direction, then great. But like, i think, uh, for sure.
01:51:24
Speaker
It's just a common thing for anybody that's doing online stuff. I also like what I do. I dare i say love what I do. i would also love to never have to do it again. Like I would love to never work. I would like to go to the co-workers.
01:51:39
Speaker
i Wow. I do love the way Casey explains my job because it's new every time. so dismissive. I love it. I really try to think of a good way to take
01:51:57
Speaker
it. You work with Diddy? but Yes. yeah Okay. He's an adjustment counselor, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You said before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:52:08
Speaker
So you've still got that Christian superiority about you. like That was...
01:52:14
Speaker
I can see into your life. You've nailed Sam to the wall several times tonight. Nothing makes me happier. Nothing. I truly mean this. Nothing makes me happier than we get to the end of an interview and like our guest just is just shitting on me, on Kate, like whatever it is. yeah I feel like it started from the beginning. It's perfect.
01:52:35
Speaker
it This is exactly what I want from all of our interviews is to get to a point where... who we're talking to has absolutely no qualms with just poking at the fiber of my being it's been poked consider yourself poked bitch thank you so you've got you've got new music coming out right absolutely yeah i actually like fucked up the release and it randomly came out
01:53:06
Speaker
yesterday, but it's meant it's meant to be out in two weeks. So yeah, I've got a new song coming out on the 3rd of April. It's called Consumer. and It's pretty cool. I've got a video, self-directed, self-edited, everything artistic is completely done by me, all of the writing, everything. um So yeah, I've got an EP coming out a little bit later at this year called Crisis Acting.
Conclusion and Reflections
01:53:32
Speaker
<unk> I like that. Yeah, but it's it's obviously like a play on the conspiracy, but it's also kind of just like a rumination on like being kinder to myself, like realizing that, you know, moments of crisis or moments in the past where I've had like breakdowns and things like that are because of where what I was doing at that time and like the trauma that I had at that time and hadn't resolved.
01:53:58
Speaker
So it's just like, yeah, reflecting on life and relationships and but it's cunty. like Man, it was it you that posted it? i was I saw a post like two days ago.
01:54:13
Speaker
It might have been one of your pages that posted it, but it was like... I posted lot. It was like a ah chick with the shaved Skrillex hair, and she's like... don't you just feel great the day after a crash out?
01:54:27
Speaker
feel like that was me. I think it might have been. was great. It matches up exactly with what you're saying. it's like That's just you venting your divine rage.
01:54:39
Speaker
Oh my god. i think that was me, yeah. I think that was on my cringe. I'm pretty sure, but I don't know. but yeah i've like I've promoted my music a little bit on my main pages and people get really fucking mad about that. That's so wild. I hate how people do that.
01:54:56
Speaker
Death threats. like You're a person. I hate that that the internet can't recognize that there are people behind these accounts that have stuff that they want to do. If I had the 300,000 plus followers that you do, I would be starting shit and promoting. For sure. There's nothing wrong with it. You run the page. It's your thing. Why not just allow a shred of your own personal life and humanity to exist in that space yeah i mean it was a conscious thing for me like to include myself more because people are saying that i'm a bully and like i can i can dish it out but i can't take it i'm like fine fucking roast me here i am fucking roast me and then they mad about me putting myself out there i'm like i you really can't win that's why i'm just know you can't i don't give a fuck like engagement is engagement
01:55:44
Speaker
ah Here's my personal details. Kill me if you want. Dox my family. It's already been done. Break into your house just to get at your like amazing shirt collection.
01:55:58
Speaker
How am I using my shirt? um No, no. But like Melbourne is so conservative. like When I dress like God, I mean, yeah, I stand out a lot.
01:56:12
Speaker
but yeah i love it this is as conservative as i can go that's that's like my era for sure that like the button downs with the flames and dragons and stuff like that yeah good that was from living in l la that was my um yeah a la really like helped me sort of discover who i was but it's such a like godless place it's really weird that like i think vineyard vineyard the vineyard church i think started in la i think but it's like you go then it's just like it felt really godless like i just felt like it was like a spiritual attack while i was there it's like this is not a like safe place spiritually we've had some friends talk about
01:57:03
Speaker
that like we've had a couple of comedian friends that did a short stint there and just describe it as like the darkest time in their life you know and then you know we've talked to other people love it i literally had a full emotional breakdown but i like moved back but yeah i was in a really bad really bad place when i was there but in saying that like i'm so grateful for it because it ah I feel like I hit rock bottom and then it forced me to work on it and build myself back up. So I'm i'm grateful for it.
01:57:36
Speaker
It was a 26 hour acid trip that did it for me. Ooh, that the emotional dragonite behind you. Oh, the dragonite. Yeah.
01:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. I'm a child. ah bill I collect WWE w figures. So in my other room, there's like a ton of shit. Nice. Nice. Well, then dude, I'm so glad we got to talk to you. I was like, when Sam messaged, because he does most of the social media, when he messaged he was like, hey, Guard reached out. I was like, you gotta me. As if you know who i am That's so crazy.
01:58:13
Speaker
Yeah, dude, like I said, I've been following your pages for forever. So it was really cool to get to meet you and ah really appreciate you coming on. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate your time and I love what you're doing.
01:58:26
Speaker
I'm fan. right, everybody. Well, thank you for listening, and we will see you next time.