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Ep. 5 - Questions Not Answers with Chris Deaton
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This week, we talk to longtime Liberty University RD, social media debate moderator, and worship ministries major (yes, that's a real thing) Chris Deaton! Chris discusses his progression from apathetic youth, to dedicated LU staffer, to philosophical renegade over the course of 15 years. We were fascinated by his perspective, and it made for a really fun conversation!
Growing Up Christian is now available through Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Audible, and pretty much anywhere podcasts are found. Like, subscribe, and send us your thoughts on the things we discussed!
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Transcript
Introduction to Tattoos and Sincerity
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, you were you were a little more like devout and serious about it in college though, weren't you? Because like some devotional and I went with you to get the tattoo. Yeah, because tattoos are an incredible form of sincerity.
Introducing Podcast and Guest, Chris Deaton
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome to the Growing Up Christian podcast. I'm Casey. And I'm Sam. And today we're joined by a good friend from college, former roommate to me, Chris Deaton. What's going on, Chris? Hey, just living the dream.
00:00:55
Speaker
So I, both Casey and I had at one point roomed with not, well, I didn't share a room with Deaton. I don't remember if you'd say that's news to me, but we had dorm, you guys shared a room, but I had been on a dorm as well with Deaton. I spent my first year at Liberty university on the dorm with him. And Chris and I, we'd room together my first semester
Liberty University and Dorm Life
00:01:21
Speaker
there. And then I moved in with Ryan after that.
00:01:24
Speaker
But I think we were both. That's right. You left me after one semester. I did. You were too dirty. He's like, this dirty guy is not working out for me. I think you and I were both a little out of our element, a little overwhelmed by the atmosphere when we first got there. Would you say that's correct for you? Sure. And then I roomed with Dan Kelly.
00:01:54
Speaker
And that was much more my element. His name has come up a few times on this, man. I didn't know if we could reference other people on the podcast. I didn't know. I mean, those references fall on deaf ears. Yeah, for sure. But the people who know, they will enrich it.
00:02:21
Speaker
Right. Every time we bring up Dan Kelly, we need like a little soundbite that Dan Kelly backstory.
Dan Kelly's Character and Connections
00:02:28
Speaker
The long story short is Dan is like one of the most interesting and unique people. We always talk about him and his name comes up so much.
00:02:37
Speaker
We want to have him on so bad. I really think you need to. Like, you really have to. For no reason other than just have him go over some of the old stories that he used to tell us. And to be fair, most of us, when you get past the shiny candy coating, have a rotten peanut inside. Oh yeah, if there is even a peanut. It's just an empty void. Like, I'll say this, I don't know if people are in it and you chip your tooth.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, but I've I've kept up with not like kept up like actual human contact with him, but I've Facebook stalked him a lot. I don't know and like I just really others. I just really appreciate where he
Chris's Memoir and Christian Upbringing
00:03:20
Speaker
is right now. It seems. I haven't. I don't know. I haven't heard from or known. I don't have no clue what's going on with him, but I know that if it's really funny to like I really enjoy his posts.
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, his posts are great. Yeah. So give us the rundown man on your, uh, your backstory. I know we've had this discussion before, but you know, it's been a while. You don't exactly keep up with people very well, which we've already discussed off there. Well, I don't want to take away too much from my memoirs, you know, that I'm trying to prepare. Yeah, you're writing your autobiography right now. Yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
Not, but I guess in short, uh, just the scope of, I guess what this podcast is for. Like I grew up in a very, definitely a very Christian home. I would say it's pretty conservative. Um, not, uh, definitely not like super conservative, but conservative enough to earn that label. Yeah. Um, yeah. And went to small, like rural North Carolina, little town called Belmont.
00:04:28
Speaker
Um, and definitely very rural, went to a small private school since I was 18 months old. So in the nursery, I was a, I was a legacy student at a Cramerton Christian Academy. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I went there for a while and went to, you know, just like your typical North Carolina rural Baptist churches.
00:04:57
Speaker
uh grew up pretty conservative uh oh man i'm trying to just hit it at a high level without going to any tickets how many people in your high school your christian high school like your church ish oh that's a good question uh my graduating class was i was either 22 or 23 i don't know what person i'm forgetting
Public School Friends and New Ideas
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, compared to the private schools up there in Michigan. I'm sure that's pretty huge. But I had a lot of friends at public school, like all my youth group peeps. They were public school people, so they kept me a little edgy is what I like to think. I was going to say, you're a little contaminated, but you don't have to work that around. Yeah, so I knew what all the dirty jokes were because of them. Oh.
00:05:46
Speaker
and uh was um was it good your was it something um
00:05:55
Speaker
You were, were you so surrounded by Christianity that it was essentially your only bubble? Like, I know you had, like you said, you had public school friends, but were your, were pretty much your friends' groups and your parents' friends and everyone in your circle, predominantly Christian.
Cultural Christianity in the Bible Belt
00:06:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's even kind of like being part of that area of, I guess the quote unquote, like Bible belt is like, technically, if you ask everybody, they, they're a Christian, you know, even if they're like,
00:06:23
Speaker
horrible person or really don't do anything that perpetuates like the name of Jesus. They're all like by almost like hereditary, you know, a Christian. Like when so Jewish. Yeah. Like I'm Catholic. Yeah, my parents are Catholic. So I'm like that's Catholic is big up in New England and that like almost everyone I
00:06:50
Speaker
I mean, I didn't go to a Catholic church, but people outside of Protestantism, almost everyone's parents were Catholic. We're Catholic. We're a Catholic family. I think a lot of people don't really know what it means to not be a Christian. For them to not be a Christian, would it be to waive a aggressive banner of atheism? Yeah. I definitely grew up in that bubble. There's definitely various levels of sincerity and
00:07:21
Speaker
um i can't think of a better word off the top of my head but like tenacity like within like the the embodiment of their faith but yeah i would say that that was definitely the most pronounced bubble how did you internalize it as a kid like or as like a teenager in youth group um was it just like this is what we do and you didn't think a ton about it or is it something that you were
00:07:45
Speaker
Like what was your, on a scale of one to 10, your commitment level to it, based on your maybe actions on a personal level. Like how much you read the Bible and did all that kind of stuff. Like I feel like those are the types of things that kids who are serious about their faith at that age are like the things that they do. I don't know about other things to do other than maybe a trip, but usually kids go on those because the girl they liked was going on them also. I would say it was definitely very,
00:08:17
Speaker
I don't know, is that a weird word? It was definitely fair. You're going to have to sound that one out. Yeah. I don't even know if I pronounced it correctly.
Evolving Faith in Teenage Years
00:08:26
Speaker
It was definitely up and down. I would say for most of my life, it was just very experientially cultural, the outworking of my faith, and even the sincerity and introspection of my faith.
00:08:43
Speaker
I was gripped with a few questions here and there. But for the most part, it was just very chill. I was just like, I don't want to think too deep about this. Or I don't want to just go super in. I don't know. I was a nice kid. Oh, man. It's just crazy. It's hard for me to even remember much of my life before I was 18. I was like, did I really exist for much? I don't know. That's why you believe in simulation theory, which we're going to do.
00:09:11
Speaker
Exactly. So it's hard for me to remember a lot unless I like really sit down in specific events. But like, I was just very chill. And like, I was like, Yeah, I'm a Christian. I knew certain things, you know, but I wasn't like, I wasn't very like dogmatic. I wasn't very, you know, it sounds like you did a good kid.
00:09:31
Speaker
I was a boring good kid. Yeah, I fell in that same category. You didn't have a lot of things contesting that worldview in your life. So they didn't, you didn't have any reason. I don't know. I want you to, I'm going to make a statement. I'm going to make it hopefully neutral, but you can respond to it. Okay. I mean, fine. Casey, I won't make that statement. Go hard. What do you want to say?
00:09:55
Speaker
Well, you were, you were a little more like devout and serious about it in college though, weren't you? Because I remember you being like some devotional and I went with you to get the tattoo.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, because tattoos are an incredible form of sincerity. I guess I was trying to get there before Sam so rudely interrupted me. I definitely became more sincere the summer before my senior year of high school is when I was like, oh, yeah, if I actually believe these things, which are pretty
Influence of College Friends on Spiritual Growth
00:10:32
Speaker
You know big statements, you know about God and Jesus like that actually demands something of me in my life. Like I can't just take those things with a.
00:10:43
Speaker
level of apathy or neutrality. Either like I'm just crazy or, you know, like some sort of genius needs to kind of flow from that. And so I would say, and there are some other people that kind of came into my life. That's when like, Laura, then, Reitzel, you know, now, Mikkelroy, was kind of one of those forums of catalyst and growth, I would say for me.
00:11:11
Speaker
But my senior year is when I was just like, yeah, I'm going to take this seriously. And that's also what led me to the decision of going to Liberty. Because before then, I was actually planning on going to NC State and studying biology and natural science.
Choosing Liberty University Over NC State
00:11:24
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah, for a whole lot of years. From fourth grade, you may not have known this, from fourth grade to junior year in high school, I wanted to be a herpetologist, which is a zoologist that studies reptiles. And Steve Irwin was my biggest hero
00:11:41
Speaker
Ever. Yeah. That's cool, man. I did not know that. Do you have moments of sadness into your 30s that you didn't pursue that route? Sometimes when I think I could have been his spiritual successor and spent my days chasing Komodo dragons and King Cobras. Like a real coyote Peterson sort of character?
00:12:11
Speaker
Well, is that the guy who gets who stings himself with everything? No, not like that. The hard way.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, I would have not done that. But yeah, I think it was like, I realized like, oh, if I'm serious about my faith, then I should go to a Christian school because that's just what I naively thought that I should do.
Conservative College Experience
00:12:34
Speaker
My high school pushed like three colleges, Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian, and one other school that nobody's ever heard of that has like 150 people in it. And so it was rebellious for me to consider liberty.
00:12:47
Speaker
Say what in push liberty. No liberty was way too liberal for them wild Yeah, like that's the high school. I went to I should have mentioned that earlier The reps from Pensacola Christian come up and like oh, yeah, we had an I wish like sometimes I do think about this if I were to write like my own
00:13:11
Speaker
Christian fan fiction or whatever is just like take what I know right now and to go back in high school, I would have stirred up so much trouble. We had a three hour long sermon one time at our school retreat slash revival. It was all about the evils, the evils mind you of contemporary Christian music.
00:13:34
Speaker
No, they just they just bypassed like secular music. Like we don't even have to talk about how evil that is. Dude, we're like we're like spiritual brothers. Yeah, exactly my story. That's why we bonded so well that one semester before you moved, moved out. Okay.
00:13:55
Speaker
This brings me to a very important question. And you have the answer off the cuff, rapid fire. Part two parts. First part, favorite Christian rock bands. Second part, favorite Christian rappers. OK. One, hands down DC talk. Yes. All right. Hands down. I still owe a certain amount of devotion to them. You're still down with the DC talk? Still down with the decent Christian talk.
00:14:25
Speaker
And Christian Rapper, DC Talk, early stuff. All right, fair answer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I've listened to some other things. I never really got too much into Christian Rapper. I listened to some of the Cray and Andy Minio here and there, but by the time I was getting out of Christian music, Christian Rapper's just like, oh, that's nice over there or whatever.
00:14:50
Speaker
man I remember my church when I was a kid there was a certain like I didn't again being homeschooled whatever like I didn't my parents didn't like a lot of music but they didn't
00:15:03
Speaker
They weren't overly invested in what we were listening to. And I got more into music after I was of the Napster generation. And I remember, or whatever, one of the ones that came out after Napster was like Morpheus or something was maybe one of them. But I downloaded some music and it was all the pop culture hits of the time, like you're some 41s and, you know, whatever. But I remember there being
00:15:33
Speaker
I passed her at my church, gave a sermon about how bad and awful some of the contemporary music was of the day. And he quoted some 41 from the pulpit. And he's like, listen to some of the lyrics from these bands that your children are listening to. And then he just reads, the doctor said my mom should have had an abortion.
00:15:59
Speaker
And then he said the A word. Uh-oh. And then every kid there all like kind of looking side to side at each other. Like the guy doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. He might as well just summon Satan straight out of that lyric.
00:16:16
Speaker
Everyone knows the song and everyone knows at the point of it was just a joke on him being it like a useless person like and he's just taking it so seriously and then he read some Eminem lyrics from the pulpit to which I Mean I'll hand it to him on some Eminem lyrics if you read some of those work You don't have to look very hard there. Yeah
00:16:40
Speaker
Deaton, during their anti-contemporary Christian music sermon, do you remember which bands they brought up as an example? Oh, man. Well, throughout my period at that school, especially in high school, we had multiple sermons about it, because I guess they knew it was an, quote unquote, like, issue.
Parents' Influence on Music and Faith Questions
00:17:00
Speaker
Basically, anybody you can think of. They didn't even go to the rock stuff. They were even like Michael W. Smith wasn't kosher for the, you know?
00:17:10
Speaker
And I remember one sermon, the guy brought in Mercy Mies, I can only imagine, and he used, like, will I dance before you Jesus, you know, or something, will I behold? He's like, we're not going to dance, we're not going to just, like, boogie in front of Jesus. I'm like, okay, well, there is, like, no contextual understanding of what's going on at all with you, is there? And I can just,
00:17:35
Speaker
That's a hard line. That is that is very hard line stance and and I just kind of throughout that whole time and they were also like obviously like super huge and the King James only and that stuff. I was just like my just a chill dude and so I was just like whatever.
00:17:53
Speaker
I don't believe that, but I just won't tell you about it. And my parents were always, and the older I've gotten, the more I think I appreciate how they raised me in certain ways, because they were certainly never that dogmatic. My parents actually encouraged us to ask questions and a lot of things. And so they never turned down questions. And so to hold certain tensions felt more natural to me than I think it did for a lot of people.
00:18:22
Speaker
And so that is something that I do appreciate even like with certain things like in the Bible they'd be like yeah there's maybe some tension here and they weren't like biblical scholars or anything but they were like well this is you know what this says or this is something that everybody says but it's not really actually in the Bible or and so with certain eccentricities of like my school or just being like weird and
00:18:45
Speaker
I would say fundamental in certain issues. They were just like, yeah, just don't worry about that. And just behave nice around them. Don't stir up any controversy. Which, like I said, if I could just go back in time with my brain, I would just stir it all up. I know, especially with some of that hard line. So what's crazy is even what blows my mind about those type of hard line stance, like the anti
00:19:11
Speaker
like even having a problem with that line about dancing. It's like, look, I don't, have you read? It's like, have those people actually read any of the Bible? Like I'm pretty sure dancing comes up a few times. Well, that's what that line comes from is like David, like rejoicing over like, uh, like the law of God, you know, and like dancing. Well, that's not what actually dancing was. Like he was moving because he was so excited. Like what do you think they're talking about? I think David was twerking. That's my personal opinion.
00:19:42
Speaker
Let's do it in Mercy May songs. Just imagine bumping and grinding when he makes G notes. That's like the alcohol thing we were talking about the other day where it's like, Oh, well back then the water wasn't purified. And so they had to put alcohol into the water and it was only like 0.2%. So it's really not even alcoholic. So it doesn't even, nobody would drink alcohol if they were a Christian. Did I hit all the points? Yeah, that was good. It was basically O'Doubles. Jesus turned water into O'Doubles.
00:20:14
Speaker
Well, their tolerances must have been pretty low back then. I know, I know. It's funny too, because I'll never like, anytime anyone has that stance on drinking, it's just like, you just direct people to Jesus. Like, like the whole water into wine story is so funny, because it's like everyone was wrecked. And then Jesus is like, here's more wine, and this wine's dope. Like, this is the better, stronger stuff. And it's just like, okay.
00:20:40
Speaker
you guys you drank the good shit blew through the cheap shit and he's just like this part is not over yet guys and sick to work tomorrow so then so okay you
00:20:58
Speaker
went to Liberty and that correct. Yeah, so was that and that was kind of a jumping off point for taking your faith more seriously. Yeah, that was I would say my freshman year was so much of a building block off of what my senior year in high school was. And man, I don't even know how to give a capstone like the next 10 years in any sort of concise way.
Exposure to Diverse Perspectives at University
00:21:26
Speaker
But the, I really do think, and I don't know, this may sound like a just like an oxymoron for so many people who might listen to this, but I got so much more of a diversity of experience and relationships with people at Liberty, even though that seems like so much of a small
00:21:47
Speaker
you know scope for so many people but for me it really was very like eye-opening especially like our freshman dorm that year Casey and even subsequently like the next year sophomore year like uh there were so many people from so many different areas and experiences um different areas of the country different thoughts like I it really opened my mind up to like
00:22:13
Speaker
people don't just think how I thought in, like, Middletown, North Carolina. And that was so, I think, helpful and formative to me, that that also set in things in motion of, like, understanding, like, the way that I see things is, like, not the only way that there is to see things. And there's validity in appreciating beauty and differences. Like, I wouldn't have been able to tell you that in that way my freshman year, but that certainly started that perspective and appreciation.
00:22:42
Speaker
And I think that was incredibly helpful. Yeah, I had this dude, I had a similar like, because the outside world looks at Christianity as something that's monolithic. And yes. And you even think it is growing up in your bubble. You're like, this is what Christianity is. And I mean, it sounds like you got a slightly different perspectives, like there was more of the hardline stance of your school and then there was your work.
00:23:05
Speaker
like what you would get from your parents. Was your church as hard line as your school? No, no. My church was like super casual and my church, I very much appreciated my church. I would have different probably things to say about it now in my perspective. I would still say it's like, it's definitely most of the people there are very
00:23:27
Speaker
conservative and all that that entails but they're much more open and I don't know I mean I even thought just from the fact that I could wear jeans and sneakers to church meant we were just super like hip and cash but they I would see it as more of a genuine and healthy place even still now in some ways it's not my it's like my parents church still but
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, my parents still go to the same church that I went to. That was formative for me. But yeah, I was going to say that Christianity being monolithic to the outside world, you would think going to an evangelical Christian school, you would be just steeped in that same exact thing a little bit more. I mean, you are from the academy, but you aren't from the people. And I was like,
00:24:18
Speaker
That was where I realized how many different ways there were to be Christian. And even then there was still a small pool. The Christian sphere is even bigger than that. But it did introduce me to a lot of different ways to understand Christianity as well, which was nice. I didn't expect to get that there.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. If you wanted to do biology and then seeing your year, you had a shift because you wanted to take your faith seriously. What did you end up going to college for? Well, I think you know the answer to this, don't you? Are you just using this as an example to mock me? No, I want the people to know.
00:25:02
Speaker
forgotten, but now I know where it's going because Casey and I did just spend probably like 10 minutes really shitting on maybe the degree that you're about to say. Oh, I'm sure you, I could have probably added a substantial amount to that as well. But this is actually one of the things that people find most surprising about me. Like after I graduated undergrad and got like my master's, people just automatically associated me with my master's and
00:25:32
Speaker
didn't really, I guess just forgot that it and that I had an undergrad and I have left it so many people like guess what my undergrad was in and like two people have guessed it in the past like 15 years.
00:25:45
Speaker
And is that surprising apparently? Everyone's in suspense. I know I know I'm just you can even add some some nice little It's padded out pad the time in a little bit further But I was a worship major Worship specialized in biblical studies. I tell people now that I was a music major just cuz that's a much easier to explain I
00:26:11
Speaker
Okay. No, there are others. I would say a bunch of other schools, their music degrees are probably more geared to that.
Worship Major and Biblical Studies
00:26:30
Speaker
But in some ways, it was easier, like the notation systems and things that we used were a little bit more casual. But we definitely still had musicianship classes and music theory classes, which were still pretty challenging. But all that to say, what am I doing in that capacity nowadays? Absolutely nothing.
00:26:53
Speaker
What did you get your master's in? What did you end up doing for a master's? I got my master's of divinity in theological studies, which is kind of like an academic research slash kind of pastoral. For me, it was more academic and research oriented than pastoral oriented. You can kind of choose which direction you'd like to focus in. So that's why I got my master's in.
00:27:20
Speaker
finished, it's a 90 credit hour degree, which is a big one, but I finished with like pretty close to 120 credits. I took too many audits and extra classes that were interesting to me, because a lot of the classes that were built up in the framework of the degree were boring to me. So I was like, if I'm going to do this, I want to take some interesting classes. And those definitely padded out my time. Where did you get that through?
00:27:51
Speaker
I got that through Liberty. I, because it was free. I, at one point I was going to change and go to another school. Uh, but I got a job there and I guess, you know, I don't know, you probably don't know how, how thick my ties with Liberty, um, have gone. They were actually just severed this past, uh, April. That's when I actually cut ties with Liberty. So surprise, surprise. I wasn't going to be a beast for a while.
00:28:21
Speaker
want to get into this. You didn't get to live through the fall. Well, I saw it coming, and I was there as it started to. But I'm still close enough to rejoice in parts of it. But yeah, I was a resident director there for eight years, which was just super humbling.
Eight Years as Resident Director
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, I was an RD. Did you know that was an RD?
00:28:48
Speaker
I feel like I remember you doing becoming an RD like when it first happened. You just assumed that I had stopped a lot sooner than I did. Yeah, I didn't know you were still doing it. I didn't know you'd done it that way. I mean, RD is a good gig. If you have it, you need to just do that. It's such a good gig.
00:29:04
Speaker
It really was and it allowed me freedom to transition out of it in a good way too. I had actually planned only do a few years. I mean, it is a good gig, so I stayed a little longer. But about year five, I was like, okay, I'm ready to move on. I actually was looking into doctoral programs. I was planning on getting my PhD
00:29:30
Speaker
in ancient Near Eastern studies. And which is something I was just incredibly fascinated still. So I was looking at places like University of Chicago, Wheaton. There were a couple out of the country schools that I was looking at. But because I really wanted to do that. And then I kind of determined like,
00:29:50
Speaker
I love learning, but I really don't want the next five, six years to be completely devoted to reading and writing as my whole life. I love learning, but I hated writing papers. And I was like, hmm, that's probably something that I should take note of.
00:30:10
Speaker
so did you know jerry jr personally no uh no but you knew becky personally no no no definitely not even less personally uh i actually tried to stay out of like out of i try to keep a like a low profile because for the last like i was becoming like the edgy rd
00:30:35
Speaker
In some ways, uh, I was trying to keep a low profile because I knew if the more I was out there I was I was like I can only bound not to like expose myself for so long, you know Yeah, that's that's cool. Where if you uh, if you start having shifting ideologies So it's you don't want them to know about it if you're doing any sort of staff work for sure For watered down christians like sam. Yeah Yeah Did you uh, I
00:31:05
Speaker
No, obviously I knew you through our undergrad. Obviously more so maybe like probably the best sophomore year into junior year. But I feel like at Liberty, this was a place where people like us kept these things to themselves if they had them.
Recurring Crises of Faith
00:31:26
Speaker
Did you have any sort of like undergrad crisis of faith? Hmm.
00:31:36
Speaker
I would not see it as any sort of punctilier or like. I'm trying to think that's a stupid word, but any sort of like moment of of crisis of faith, I would see it as more of like various times of reoccurring. Little crises of faith.
00:32:03
Speaker
you know, like they kept like kind of like resurging. And I don't know, like I struggle to like say like the word crisis of faith. But at the same time, I feel like that's a pretty accurate description. I've like,
00:32:16
Speaker
I would say that there was certainly confusion, doubts, questions, just it was it was basically like a revolving like a door, you know, like one of those little like doors that goes around and around and I was just trapped inside of it like between confidence, doubt, confusion, utter disarray, you know, like, and all sorts of like emotions and thoughts kind of mixed in there. I would say a lot of my
00:32:43
Speaker
really intent questioning probably came my senior year intentional directed question because I was my junior year well even my freshman and sophomore year like I said things started like people I think were in my life that were challenged me in a lot of different areas and I was just man I was a sponge I would take up anything and I think like I've always been a person who's
00:33:09
Speaker
fairly willing to talk just about anything, you know, and to listen to hear it out and to like evaluate my own self. But like, I think there were so many different people who I was like, absorbing from that it kind of like came to boil. And I was like, Okay, I actually got to just deal with some of this. And I think having, I don't know how much you remember, like, Ray Fuentes as my roommate, my senior year, like, man,
00:33:35
Speaker
For the longest time, I thought that dude was like the smartest guy I'd ever met in my life. And he was just like a crazy genius, you know? And I still think that he is like that. But he was like, he would always like, we'd always have these like stimulating, challenging conversations. And I would just like soak it up. And I would like always, I always love to play devil's advocate too. And I think that's why, I don't know, there's a period in my life, this might surprise you, because I don't think it was the period that we were in.
00:34:03
Speaker
together, but people thought that I was smart. I'm agreeing and now I'm realizing what you're saying and I'm not agreeing. I never was like, this guy's not smart. But I think it's because I kept my own opinions to myself for so long. I would start to have borderline somewhat controversial thoughts on things.
00:34:31
Speaker
It started with like, you know, like, uh, just even like Calvinism, Arminian debate, which is such an undergrad Christian school thing, you know, but you're on the bus on the way to class at Liberty. And you're just like, Oh my God, no, not again. But I would just like question, like ask guided and prodding questions and other people. And they're like, man, this guy is smart, but I would never reveal my own opinions. And it was such a guarded thing for me. Opinions were such a,
00:35:00
Speaker
private, um, an intimate thing for me that I wouldn't share them. And that, that was actually something I struggled with revealing to people my true thoughts on things for, for a long time, but that's, I still have that problem. Uh, I'm still, yeah, especially with family, like not family all the way, but like parents in laws, like I'm just like, it's not worth it. It's just way too much going on. And I don't feel like it's just too much work to,
00:35:30
Speaker
Because it's exhausting explaining your thoughts. Because it also comes with, at least for me, the past. To get you to where I'm at now, I have to take you to the past 10, 15 years of my learning. I know. Because like I said,
00:35:44
Speaker
my crisis of faith was continually learning and continually evaluating and reevaluating and examining and letting things go and holding other things and being willing to let those things. There was never a point where I was like, oh my gosh, do I just drop it all? There were multiple little times when I was like, do I drop this? Do I drop that? And there have been a few points where I've been like, certainly been like,
00:36:11
Speaker
all of this, like, you know, do I even want to be a part of any of this, you know, and there were some sort of little existential crises here and there. But I think, I don't know, and like, I think anytime you learn
00:36:28
Speaker
a lot of information, even if it's, I don't know, whatever filter you're pursuing that information through in such a short time, it's going to lead to like one of a few things. It's going to lead to like arrogance or just you're just going to crash.
00:36:42
Speaker
And I think for me, it was kind of both, but mainly there was this period where I think I was very arrogant and douchey about the information that I was learning. Yeah. I remember that period in my life too. I still, for some of the conversations I had to them were just like, how did they even stay friends with you? If I know somebody now, like the only reasonable response would be to look me in the eyes and say, go fuck yourself, man.
00:37:10
Speaker
The way that I treated people like yeah Ben told that so many times in my life No, I think you're right. I think that goes For me as well. And I think oh man wasn't gonna say I thought it was I think the thing that is like I mentioned earlier like my parents kind of started but I think has been progressively helpful to me is the ability to hold tension and so for me I
00:37:35
Speaker
is to keep me from just like exploding my brain and just to be this like fetal position all the time of existential crisis is ability for me to hold tension and wrestling with these deep confusing things for a decade you know and to be able to like when I get a question be like
00:37:56
Speaker
I know that I'm not going to be able to solve this now. So I have to be willing to wrestle with this question for a few years to come with a satisfactory place or a satisfactory answer, or just to be fine with not being able to find an answer to that. And I think my wife kind of was a little different, because when we first met, she would ask me questions, and I was the
00:38:19
Speaker
the seminarian, so she had a lot of questions and a lot of things that she had held for all of her life. I was like, well, actually, that's not really the best way to view this or that. There's a lot more nuance and freedom to that than you think. Then she was like, well, I've got to question everything at the same time.
00:38:39
Speaker
It really was like a crisis of faith for her. And we're definitely still working through some of those issues. Not as though, I don't want to be careful with how I say that. It's not like I'm working to guide her, to like show her, like I can't just put her where I am. Because even me, like I'm still in a place of confusion and I would say agnosticism on certain topics, you know? But it's just because I'm fine with having the tension there and the mystery. But I am definitely, go ahead. I'm randomly.
00:39:09
Speaker
that's a big deal and something that you know Sam we've talked about that quite a few bit or quite a bit on the past episodes you know Sam talks about like an addiction to certainty that a lot of people oh man yeah that's a good book title yeah that is that is a great book title essentially a book title that Pete ends has the book the sin of certainty oh you're right I Pete ends I read some of the stuff
00:39:39
Speaker
it. But I think that's really difficult for a lot of people. And I feel like it's, it varies per person by issue to like there's certain things in your life where you're like,
00:39:52
Speaker
I need to make a decision on this. I can't hold this and just wonder about it and keep thinking about it. It's going to drive me insane.
Religion: Answers or Questions?
00:40:01
Speaker
What if somebody asks me? I've got to have an answer. I think people generally turn to religion for the answers, not the questions. My personal opinion on that is just a bunch of answers has religion gone wrong. Absolutely.
00:40:18
Speaker
that we're in a weird spot now because almost all of religion or the christian religion is like is the i have questions i need answers because they don't
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah. The friendly, uh, generous side of me will say it's because people have too much else going on in their life and they just want, they don't want to deal with the existential questions. They just want to focus on putting food on the table or paying the bills. Yeah. I don't have time for that. Some people aren't like, I don't think that kindly of many people, uh, as a whole, but I don't know.
00:40:55
Speaker
Uh, but even if, I don't know, that's probably like, at least to some level, the underlying reason for it is, um, maybe even for men too. I think, you know what? I think men and more in particular, and I don't know, I'm probably stepping on some dangerous territory, uh, trying to parse out the differences between men and women on certain things. But, um, my understanding of studies shown is that women are more like.
00:41:22
Speaker
They're more likely to believe in God, but less likely to have any sense of dogmatism. But then when they do believe in God, they're often more dogmatic. They just need... I don't know, that probably goes back to patriarchal bullshit and having control is my guess. That's like white.
00:41:45
Speaker
Dayton was saying that he's telling his wife how it is. Well, that's what I was trying to say that I mean, I mean, that's basically right. Yeah. Very conservative of you. You haven't let go of everything. No, no, I'm trying to not do that. I'm trying to, I don't know, guide her in learning how to ask questions and find answers for herself. And because I can't just
00:42:15
Speaker
like anybody just be like here's because I think the problem that we have is just be like well tell me the answer I want to hear right now like no like that's that's the why we're in the problems that we're in right now because we're just getting these cheap automatic answers but we don't actually know how to flesh out it's the progress to getting those answers that helps us like I don't know like I don't know if this sounds too cheesy or trite but like I think it's true like we we do go to the Bible for answers and not questions but I think it's
00:42:44
Speaker
I don't know, like, I'm probably gonna hate I said this later. But like, I think it is more appropriate to find out what are the right and appropriate questions. Like, that's where I think it is more helpful. And I think, like, and this is something like anytime I've taught a class or like a session or something, like, I, I don't know, like, I
00:43:06
Speaker
I appreciate the things that I've learned and I've spent a lot of time learning and reading and some things I'm more solid on, but a lot of things I'm more, like I said, acknowledging the tension there and I appreciate that. But one thing I tell so many people and I think it's so true is when you go to the Bible with
00:43:28
Speaker
asking certain questions and the Bible has no intention of answering those, you're just going to end up being confused and frustrated or just wildly mistaken about what the Bible is actually trying to convey.
00:43:43
Speaker
It answers what it wants to answer. So you have to go in with the appropriate questions. Like, what is it trying to communicate? What is it, you know, and a lot of times that does not fit into what we're asking, like, as culture, like, as a church. And that's what is so frustrating to me is to see other people so frustrated about, like, like, basically, I don't know, like, I don't want to get in too much of a rant, but, like, what we view as, like, the modern evangelical movement is just so
00:44:13
Speaker
they're so misguided on the appropriate questions, you know, and I don't know, like when you go to the Bible for, and even just quick answers, like you're going to be frustrated, like nah, you can read, and this is something I tell people too, like if you go to the Bible, just yeah, if you want to understand like, about God and love and like sending his son and with that, like,
00:44:38
Speaker
requires of you and what that looks like. That's there. That's quick. That's easy. But these things that you're wanting to know about this deep, nuanced understanding of good and evil and relationships and how that fleshes out in your context and culture, you're going to have to wrestle with things for a while because those are not quick and easy answers that come from the Bible, even from itself.
00:45:05
Speaker
And if you go to those with just quick, easy things, you're just going to wind up damaging yourself and somebody else. Yeah. So actually, that makes me think of a couple of questions.
00:45:19
Speaker
As you said, you didn't have any real big crisis of faith. It was just kind of like these mini things, not mini to diminish them, but it was just like certain things here or there along the road, which I resonate with. I think I've stated before that part of the reason I was able to stay
00:45:38
Speaker
within a version of Christianity is that I didn't have a moment of like, ah, this is not for me anymore. Like, it was just little things. Like, I don't know about that. And then I'd go and learn more about it and be like, Oh, yeah, I'll be in this direction, though. Yeah. And there were times that I wanted to leave sometimes, like, just from like, what I see other people being
00:45:59
Speaker
I'm like, I'm not that. I don't want to be that. It sounds like there wasn't any real like catalyst, like there's no major catalyst for change. Like the catalyst seems to be for you that you just like to learn and that you don't typically feel the need to shut conversations down if something's pushing against any sort of belief that you already hold.
00:46:21
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, sure. I think it does. Okay. So that's okay. So that touches on, uh, something I was curious to ask you because, you know, you and I haven't been Facebook friends for the second time for very long, but I see you on there. I see you swinging some, swinging some, some knowledge, some opinions, asking some questions. Um,
00:46:49
Speaker
It doesn't feel like the conservative Christian culture right now, at least the one that's being the loudest right now, is very appreciative of things that go against the narrative that they've established and decided on.
00:47:07
Speaker
What do you find most frustrating about, or where do you see your experience, your faith, and what it means to you as differing from what's being labeled broadly as Christianity today? Yeah. I think I've thought about this a fair amount, but I think one of the things that I've always has been a huge pet peeve of mine, which I think a lot of people were aggravated by things that we find easy,
00:47:36
Speaker
but other people struggle with is for me, the idea of that holding tension and to be able to have that self-reflection and to, I mean, I'm sure there's some people that might hear this and be like, oh, I've never got that opinion of Deaton that he, I've always thought he was stubborn and hard-headed in some ways I am. But like the idea that to be able to examine your own thoughts and opinions honestly,
00:48:00
Speaker
And like I said, I don't do that all the time perfectly, but that's something I value in myself and I try to be intentional about and it just confounds me and frustrates me when I see us or people doing that collectively and in broad ways to just to not have any notion of that you might be wrong about something and to examine those things and
00:48:28
Speaker
and in
Engaging in Online Discussions
00:48:29
Speaker
a humble and accurate way. Generally, if I post something on Facebook, I try to be very reserved. But if I got to that point, it's because I was probably very livid about something. And I generally try to mute that in the way I share. I try not to be very emotional. I try to just be very reserved. And even the post, but it probably represents something I'm deeply angry about.
00:49:00
Speaker
yelling at the horse, you try to lead it to water, because that kind of thing. I try, I don't know, like, I don't know how to do this well. But I try, at least in a social media context, I think relationally, I can do it better. But like, I try to just ask questions in a way that makes people feel comfortable to ask questions. Like, I don't just want to go up to somebody and be like, hey, you're wrong about this, or I think you're wrong about this, or even, or even like accused, like, just like, hey, you've thought about this, like, or be like,
00:49:18
Speaker
You know, and one thing.
00:49:29
Speaker
There's a broad spectrum of ideas about this, and there's some validity here. I don't know. I think the way in which I have examined myself and not afraid to ask questions has been encouraging to other people who see that. I don't know if that sounds weird or not. I don't know. I would like to have that be some influence on social media,
00:49:58
Speaker
But like, it is frustrating when you're like, you just get like, and sometimes some people do that. Well, like, I'll engage and like, I don't know, literally anything. And it's exhausting, but I don't, so I don't do it all the time. But like, I'll talk to like, anybody. But I just want to show people the way of being open minded about something. And, you know, if somebody comes to my post, and it's just kind of shitting on it, and it's just incredibly closed minded and just sarcastic, and
00:50:26
Speaker
I will return that. If you troll me, I will troll you. I will be sarcastic and inviting. I tried not to do that, but there was this one dude who did it, and I just went in. I specifically know what you're talking about, and I remember reading that and thinking, I like this. This is nice. I really do try not to. I want everybody to understand your opinion
00:50:54
Speaker
I want to say respected, but I also don't want to say respected. I respect the fact that you have a different opinion than I respect the opinion, I suppose. Exactly. I want to give you the freedom and the space to know that your opinion is welcome here, but it's not free from criticism. I would like that.
00:51:18
Speaker
When we get to a point where you have to verbalize, well, I have a right to my own opinion. That's a thing that dumb people say when they say something wrong. Yeah. It's like, yeah. There's no arguments left to make other than, well, I'm entitled to my own opinion. Well, sure you are. You're also entitled to run your car off a bridge. But I don't think that's a good idea, although that's technically illegal, so you're not really entitled to that. But I don't know.
00:51:47
Speaker
I'm not good with analogies off the fly. I know with a question Casey asked and I feel like, I don't know if there's the assumption that we know where you're coming from, but I want to push you to be a little bit less ambiguous. Okay, which is something I've been practicing for the past 15 years is how to be ambiguous.
00:52:12
Speaker
No, I don't mean that as a pejorative by any means because I frequently straddle that line. Because it's clear that there is a difference. I don't even think we need to get into the specifics of the differences because it's not entirely not obvious when you are looking at your typical conservative evangelical Christianity and its current form and position in the American zeitgeist.
Broad Interpretations of Christianity
00:52:38
Speaker
And then
00:52:40
Speaker
where you're coming from, which is obviously a challenge to that. And I think it's without having to get into semantics and the specifics, most people know what that looks like. But what always interests me, and it's something I still think about for myself, which is probably why it's interesting to me, is
00:53:03
Speaker
So if Christianity is so broad and everyone can hold that banner and believe radically different things on every topic, like you mentioned how hard it is to explain where you are now because you have to go through the past 10 years of your life.
00:53:20
Speaker
I'm in a similar boat, but it's like not only do I have to go through how I got there, I have to explain that on a very fundamental level, my understanding of God, the Bible, and my purpose in this world, and what happens after you die, if anything happens after you die, is exceptionally different than anything an evangelical might hold and believe.
00:53:45
Speaker
For them, that's radically in what I would believe is radically outside the realm of Christianity, and I would not be considered one. And I'm okay with that in the same way that I almost have a hard time considering that to be anything other than a co-opted version of the concept of faith and turn it into just an American
00:54:07
Speaker
I don't know, capital. It's just kind of just like falls in line with like the American capitalistic mindset of your place in this world. So I have a lot of problems with it. So when you get into this point of your life where that's so radically different and doesn't seem to reflect or represent any Christian concepts or ideas or anything that you understand,
00:54:34
Speaker
that Jesus would have been about what's the point of it, point of staying Christian for you. And then kind of like, I guess a jumping off question for that is if two people holding the same banner can really just have radically different beliefs, does your belief really mean anything? And what do you do with what you believe? And if it's different, is it because we,
00:55:04
Speaker
can't i guess what i'm trying to say is like can you do your i guess do your beliefs matter or is it just about how you live and function this world that's really yeah
00:55:19
Speaker
Oh man, I wish that I had been taking notes during that question. That was like, um, that's what I would give as an answer to probably somebody. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And asking the question.
00:55:47
Speaker
You know, I can tell where there's some things happening here. If you guys want to take a moment and pray with me and accept it to your heart, we can do that right now. Let's do it. And I probably remember my freshman year of angelism class, my little script that I'd come up with. Casey, do you mind leading us in that prayer? I understand that you have a very robust prayer life and remember how to do it really well.
00:56:13
Speaker
I definitely have the birds memorized Family Thanksgiving or something your parents ever asked me to say great me Do your parents pray before meals and stuff when you're over? Yeah, but you know if I kind of rush and start eating then you
00:56:41
Speaker
Usually if I throw a bite in my mouth before they sit down, then they kind of look at each other awkwardly and then just go start eating. My move. Casey's the first one to dig in. We would go to my grandmother's for like Thanksgiving, not this year because we were responsible during the pandemic. But we normally, like no one in my mom's, it's just my mom's side of family. Nobody's like really religious at all. Like maybe one person
00:57:10
Speaker
when they want to be, when their life isn't going great and they need something. But my dad, he just does like the prayer, like the Thanksgiving blessing every year. And it's so awkward. It wasn't when I was a kid and when I was younger, I remember being like, this is a powerful witnessing tool. And now I'm older, I'm sitting around the table with a bunch of adults between the ages of 30 and 70 with their eyes open, just like, it's just gonna be over.
00:57:38
Speaker
Lord bless this Stouffer's stovetop stuffing on sale at Walmart right now for $2.99. I think I undermined your question, Sam, but to summarize, I think what you're saying is
00:57:58
Speaker
You got such radically different sex under this very broad banner. Yes. Is there purpose in continuing to live under that banner? Is the banner even worthwhile at this point given how much variation there is and how dramatically different they are?
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, that's pretty much it. And if so, why? Like, so for the mission is saving souls. Well, they say it's their mission. I don't really see much doing anything, but you know, what's the mission, I guess, for you? What's the drive? No, that's that's a good question. And I think
00:58:39
Speaker
If I were to say, what's the heart of
Centrality of Jesus in Faith
00:58:41
Speaker
that question? What is the root of what I would call my faith and how much I would put that as a... And also, I think, what are the minimums of faith? Because I think in questions of... When I ramble, I can go on for a while, so I'm going to try not to do that. But...
00:59:03
Speaker
Like a lot of this stuff is still very much stuff that I am sorting through and like nailing down. And I also don't want to nail down to a degree. Like I want to have some ambiguity. Like there are certain things that I think are central and vital. Like if you're going to have some sort of like Christian faith, obviously the Christ has got to be some sort of centrality.
00:59:27
Speaker
There are a lot of things that I am agnostic about and hold very loosely that I think a lot of people hold very tightly. And I think even just from my experience in education, I don't want to say like, oh, I've learned this. I'm smarter than other people. So this is the right way. I think I've definitely learned to grow and see where there is nuance and tension where people, it's just easier to say that there's not.
00:59:58
Speaker
But for me, it is very much a centralizing thing, like the person and the work of Jesus to bring about like a kingdom devoted to himself, you know, and to Yahweh. And I don't know, like I struggle using even Christian terms, not just because of like the context of like this podcast, but even just like they annoy me. You talk the way you want to talk and you're asking what you want to hear about you.
01:00:26
Speaker
They just personally annoy me, but it's hard because I also don't know better ways to phrase things than just what I've grown up using. But I don't think that there's a lot of room and validity for
01:00:49
Speaker
aggressive dogma and I forgot what you said but there was a thing that you said that I'm like that doesn't sound as much like faith as it does dogma and while there is room for like dogma as it like teaching and centralizing around teaching and and sharing that and
01:01:06
Speaker
exercising that in our own selves. But being, I guess, the more cultural connotation of dogma being something we hold over somebody else, I don't think that there's room for that. Because we don't leave the rooms for that. I do think there is room for ambiguity. There is room for different perspectives under a broader
01:01:35
Speaker
uh umbrella of like Christianity and faith and I think that that is important and I think we're in a lot of troubles because we've just kind of closed up that umbrella and I think I don't know like I am so frustrated that we get caught in these little just uh stupid little
01:01:55
Speaker
quibbles and arguments that I'm trying not to go into a bunch of different soap boxes right now and just vent all of my frustration. Even the way that I term myself, I mentioned it a little bit ago, but
01:02:14
Speaker
there has been times where I'm like, I am not an evangelical. And I've been like, bold, like, I am not an evangelical, because this is what evangelicals are now. And I am not that. I am not them. So I'm something profoundly different. But then there's been other times where I've kind of bounced back and be like, well, I don't think they're even they're not evangelical, they're fundamental, they just co opted the term. I'm like, No, I gotta take it back. Damn it, you know. And it's been like this,
01:02:44
Speaker
quest for, I don't know, vengeance that I wanted to take. But now I'm just like, well, that's what the term is. Then like, whatever. Like how we're going to get over vocabulary words. Yeah. Like in some ways I consider myself evangelical. But if you view that as what we commonly say as evangelical, like you'll be confused with me, I think.
01:03:05
Speaker
I very much hold a preeminence and importance of Jesus and his re-establishment of our relationship with God. Jesus is a real thing in my faith. There have been times where that has been questioned and coming. I hold a lot of empathy and sympathy for people who
01:03:33
Speaker
struggle with that and people who question it like I think knowing where my own questions and struggles have been like I definitely hold
01:03:40
Speaker
that. Like I said, I would disagree with somebody about certain things, but I understand the struggle and desire to even reject certain things. Even the idea of evangelicalism, one thing that led me in my own thoughts about that is I don't want my acceptance of something to be on what other people are displaying. There was a time when I was like, if I'm honest with myself, I thought about potentially
01:04:09
Speaker
like just dropping I guess organized and pronounced like faith but like I don't want my faith to be dependent on these other you know schmucks you know and so I was just like now like they cannot define my faith they cannot define
01:04:27
Speaker
Like, they are not Jesus. They cannot define my faith. They should not be the object of my faith. And even then, like, even in my, I guess, just focus, my singular, I guess, pillar being Jesus, I also do stroll with, be like, well, they're not Christian. I think they can be poor Christians. But I don't know, like, I've just become so, like, I
01:04:54
Speaker
I'm deeply begging the question, what does it mean to be a Christian? Is it a set of beliefs you hold? Is it a knowledge to assent to? Is it a way that you live your life? What is it? Yeah, I think it's like all of you above. That is somewhat rhetorical. I'm not looking for you to just... Is that an actual question? That's a little rhetorical. I mean, you can riff off of it, but I'm not expecting you to laugh. And I feel like that's...
01:05:21
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like that's kind of where your initial question essay was kind of going. But is it worth having these dividing characteristics? Well, not if they're just going to be different ideological camps, I think, can be harmful. I think they can be beneficial in understanding where people are.
01:05:47
Speaker
My brain just... The language only goes so far. The language can be... If I'm trying to communicate an idea or a belief that I have, I'll cater it differently to maybe my parents. I know their language. I grew up in it. I was steeped in it for so long that to some degree, for better or worse, it's always going to be a part of me. It's ingrained in my psyche in some ways.
01:06:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think belief will always require, or I don't know, like faith will always require a belief in acting on that belief. And I think we commit are the greatest injustices of faith, like when we just focus on one or the other of those. And I think that's what I see in like,
01:06:34
Speaker
I don't know, either camp's going one way or another. Does that make sense? Yeah, but I think what gets tough with that is when you have, I don't know, if you have shitty beliefs that make you do shitty things. Yeah, well, you know, no argument here. I think that's where it comes like, like the belief system comes like reevaluating and
01:06:54
Speaker
I would say that you can hold a wide range of, and this goes back to like the tension thing that I think I've been talking about the whole time. You can hold a wide range of different beliefs, but the central things are, I think, for me, it really does boil down to like the centrality and genuineness of the Jesus person, Jesus, like God. And like people who disagree on it, like I said, I will like
01:07:22
Speaker
have discussions on that all day. And even where people land on those and different expressions or whatever. I have a lot of empathy for, and I think a lot of, I'm at ease with even some of the tensions. I don't know. I definitely think there's a dividing line or a boundary line at some point. I don't know what that is. And I'm not going to work too hard on focusing on what that is.
01:07:51
Speaker
I know you were saying that you wanted to be a biologist and now Casey's not a biologist, but he knows a lot about whale stomachs and he might have a lot of teaching about whales because we keep coming back to whale stomachs and that's where his faith fell apart. Is it like the evolutionary progress of whales? It's just whether or not a dude can live in one.
01:08:20
Speaker
Okay, well that brings me to other things. We don't have to hash it out. It's come up a few times. Well, if you ever want to talk about just like Old Testament, like mythologies and stuff, like that is literally what I wanted to get my doctorate in.
01:08:40
Speaker
Yeah. I think that would be interesting, because I've just never heard a realistic person's view on some of those things. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't want to get into it too much right now. I hold a lot of looseness in that as well. Yeah. One more question if I can. So obviously, like,
01:09:09
Speaker
crazy times right now. I think the general historical data and just all around, you know,
01:09:19
Speaker
idea that people push forward is that like Hard times are kind of good for religion, right when people are pushed and they're in their hurting and they're having You know their lives are tough They tend to turn back towards their faith Do you think that the times that we're in are going to be?
Hard Times and Genuine Faith
01:09:40
Speaker
good overall for the for the you know, the ranks of christianity or do you think they've positioned themselves at a point in a way that
01:09:48
Speaker
is gonna make them very difficult for them to reach out to people. Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. And this is something me and Hannah have talked about quite a bit. Hannah's my wife, by the way. I feel like tough times really just show what you genuinely value and what you're generally passionate about. And for some people, I think that expresses like real faith. Some people, I think that's comfort.
01:10:18
Speaker
And I think for us, and where we see things kind of delineating now, I think you see people very much siding with comfort. And I do think that there is kind of, maybe this is also just hopeful thinking, like a schism kind of growing.
Critique of Christian Nationalism
01:10:38
Speaker
Maybe it's definitely not a 50-50 split, but I do think that you're seeing
01:10:43
Speaker
even some Christians who are like, okay, this is really getting out of hand, and doing some introspection and evaluation, or be like, well, I didn't really notice that this was here this much, but like, I do, like, if you wanted some ambiguity, or not ambiguity, like, I do think like this form of like Christian nationalism that we've got in a lot of ways is just
01:11:11
Speaker
one of the most evil things that I've witnessed in my life and so frustrating and I would say like demonic and like antichrist and I want to use those things that people in evangelical circles say with weight against them because I very much think that it is you know um
01:11:32
Speaker
like I just as just as an evil that I think needs to be purged but it doesn't look like it's going to be and people are more satiated and satisfied in it than I think they've they've ever been and I think flamboyant about it and that's what's like kind of scary it's like no you're not even like are you thinking we just have one night of the year we just get to kill as many of them as we want like in the
01:11:57
Speaker
And I'm going to quote you about that. And that's going to actually open the episode with like a quote or something. Oh, OK. So it's going to be that. And we're going to power edit this pretty hard. OK. Well, then do what you will. But no, I don't. I just need you to say we need one night of the year where we have a purge and kill as many of the quote unquote Christians. What if we just lock all of them on little cages on the Mexican border?
01:12:26
Speaker
perfect give him exactly you know what that's actually uh more christ like i think because it's right do you have them to yourself so clearly that's what they're looking for and that so that's that's a good idea i like the way you brought that back i would have taken a little step further he was like take out your own eyeball if it causes you to stumble or he would have been like now you're going to Mexico
01:12:49
Speaker
I'm mortified right now. You guys are extremists. Radical revolutionaries. I prefer the term radical revolution. Yeah. Well, I think to your point, I think right now we're getting to see a lot of people who profess strong beliefs in two things, a political ideology and a religion. We're seeing very clearly which one offers them the most comfort. Yeah.
Political Ideologies and Caring for Others
01:13:19
Speaker
We're seeing the side that cares about people and the side that cares about power. And you could be a conservative and care about people. I do think that I have left conservatism. I feel fairly confident and comfortable saying that. I think my family at this point knows that. But I don't know. Just so many people, just this god and country
01:13:47
Speaker
juxtaposition this forceful reinterpretation of everything and of history like i don't know i don't want to be too dramatic in the way yeah i mean but they see themselves as like they see this as like a prophetic thing where like we are like where they are i don't know somehow some of them go so far as to call themselves like a new israel and that they have god's bless like
01:14:15
Speaker
like and there was just thousands of people doing that same thing and then to me it's like that is what is just fucked up about the way in which we've just combined and distorted well we've the way in which we've combined politics and faith like i'm not going to say those should never be intertwined in some incredibly nuanced way but we've broken both of those you know the way in which
01:14:42
Speaker
I see fundamentalist Christian, and I intentionally want to use fundamentalist, like fundamentalist, like Christians have broken both politics and faith in the way they've
01:14:54
Speaker
distorted them into each other. Yeah, I mean, that mindset that brought them to the point that they are at is now like, it's a prime, it's just prime for their prime for radicalization. And I'm not trying to be over dramatic either. But at a point where it's like, mindset, it's just like, they hear, they'll hear from someone on their media outlet that something's being taken from them. And they're going to be pushed to the sidelines. And then enough is enough. And they just keep like, it's just a pressure cooker.
01:15:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, if there's one thing that's comforting about all of this, it's that I think that both of you are headed my direction. And I want to just look down and you follow my footsteps in the sand. When you look back and there's only one set, that's where you went off and did your own dumb thing. I thought you were going to be carrying me the whole way, Casey.
01:15:53
Speaker
Hmm. I don't know. I don't do anything for anyone else. I thought there was one set in the sand. It's because we were holding hands and you were walking on the sand and I was just walking with my feet in the water. That's what I thought. That's nice. I like that one. That is beautiful. Dude, Chris, it's been a ton of fun catching up with you, man. That's a decade in between contact now. Let's try not to. Yeah.
01:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, next time you have a major transformations of faith and you want to get on here and let the whole world know. Alright, that'll probably be Tuesday. Yeah, no, this was a true pleasure. Thank you for stalking me on Facebook and poaching me.
01:16:52
Speaker
All right, well thanks for listening everyone and we'll talk to you next time.