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Episode 5 - Growing Up
47 Plays1 year ago
Hello, Shallow Frenz! We made you wait so long because we were busy in the kitchen cooking up this absolute gem. Talking points include: rants about social media, future national tours, and kids these days amiright? Plus you get bonus content on art from two non-artists and discussions about the mean streets of Chicago. Score!
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Transcript
Introduction and Mystery Topic
00:00:17
Speaker
Wow, there we are, once again. Our fun intro. Yeah, I gotta figure out a way to actually record that and key it up so it's just one button instead of like. You having to click all of the different. This is why we were supposed to have a producer for this. Hey, leave him alone.
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, hi, shallow friends. It's episode five. Um, it's a mystery topic because we never really got around to that last time. We forgot to is really true. Which yeah, we, well, yeah. We just forgot to narrow into. We were prepared to either. It was an hour plus in and we were kind of like, time to be done. Yeah. But anyway, we'll get into that in a minute.
00:00:59
Speaker
tell y'all what the episode topic is. But first we have to talk about our sponsor.
00:01:07
Speaker
We actually have a sponsor
Sponsor Spotlight: Paulyon Wine
00:01:08
Speaker
this week. We did last time, too. We did last time. Sort of, but we... Yeah, because I talked about... Oh, yeah. No, we did. We did. Yeah. I mean, the lawyers got done lawyering right before the last... We recorded last time. Right. So Polly on Wine has once again hooked us up with a couple of bottles of lovely vino to fuel the conversation. Yes. Wine fueled.
00:01:36
Speaker
We are really on brand. Which one did you want to start with? That one because it's easier. Thanks to Polly. Check out the amazing
00:01:54
Speaker
premiere episode of Paulie's podcast under the influence. It's Paulie's podcast, but it's also your podcast. Well, it is. You're cheating on the shallow end with Paulie. Okay, hang on. Ready?
Chicago Trip and Live Show Plans
00:02:17
Speaker
That has got to be some quality content right there.
00:02:24
Speaker
Yay. Yay. All right. No one cares, but... No, we care. This is Borsal Gurnasha. Borsal? Where's it from? It's from Spain. And you should drink this with food. Okay, cool. Well, we just had dinner, so... We had a lovely dinner. We did have a lovely dinner. By the way, this is another first for us. Yes. We are in person, but we are offsite. Off campus. Yeah. We are hiding in a bunker in a major North American city.
00:02:53
Speaker
We're not going to reveal the city. People aren't going to be able to find us if we reveal the city. It's a pretty big city. We'll be out of here by the time anybody listens to this. We're in Chicago this weekend for a fun little family trip. Negotiating with the locations for our various live shows that are going to come up soon.
00:03:13
Speaker
We've been touring some theaters. Yeah, but we haven't found any that are big enough yet. So For our egos.
Motivation for Podcasting: Art Over Accolades
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, so that's still in the works, but stay tuned So I are also now becoming a tradition a traditional shout out and now we maybe could do a toast a toast to our loyal shallow friends Thank you shallow friends. Cheers We did manage to alienate about half of them between the last two episodes. So Those of you who are still listening
00:03:42
Speaker
You are a dying breed. Ooh, that's you. That came out of no one. Sorry, guys. You didn't splash, so that's important. No. I either threw your nose or the wine. Oh, true. Okay. Cheers to the wine. We have to finish the cheers. That's red wine. Whoa. Yeah. We were drinking Turkish wine at dinner. Yeah, we went to a Turkish restaurant for dinner. Fantastic. It was so good. It was so delicious.
00:04:13
Speaker
Well, it was a wobbly table. I know, it is a wobbly table. Everything just whibbled. If you see the camera shake, it's not because there's an earthquake, it's just a bad table. It's us. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, thank you to the shallow friends. Thank you, guys. Obviously, it's okay that not many people listen because or watch because no one, like, why would you care? Why would you care? And also, the amount of effort that we are putting into this,
00:04:41
Speaker
is I would say equal to the amount of stuff we're getting out of it. Right. We do it for the art. We do it for the art and not the accolades. And that's fine. You know, every big artist was not recognized in their time. And started as a lazy hack like us. Yeah. Maybe. OK. Yeah. Well, all that said, would you like to tell the other person
00:05:10
Speaker
Um, what we're going to talk about what our topic is. Yes.
Reflecting on Growing Up: Then vs. Now
00:05:14
Speaker
Um, we're going to talk about growing up. Wait, growing up. Yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
Okay, yeah, whatever. I don't like it. They are very out of breath in this theme song. They are true children singing. I don't want to grow up. I don't want to grow up. So now that Toys R Us is dead, what is the actual topic? No, the actual topic is growing up. This was inspired by something recently. I think we were having a conversation about
00:06:01
Speaker
um, extended adolescence or something like that, where it was like a pseudo intellectual discussion. Like, as we always do, like all of our, um, yeah, it was something like that. I think maybe mom was going on a rant about it as she does. She brought the wine downstairs. She did. She brought the wine downstairs for us because she's so wonderful. Um, but we added it to our list of topics because I think it's a very interesting,
00:06:30
Speaker
a nuanced topic that I don't really have a conclusion on personally. I feel like I have conclusions on a lot of things, but this one I'm- Well, and it can go so many different directions. Yes. I want to just, let's state it for the record now so that we hopefully stick to it. What we don't necessarily want to do is just go back and forth on
00:06:55
Speaker
how Rebecca grew up and how I grew up. Maybe there will be some stories like that to share different points, but we already told you about us. This is too much, one might say. But I think it was more motivated by the idea that the concept of growing up
00:07:20
Speaker
is sort of a moving target these days? Yes, or the achievement of being a grown-up has different requirements now than it used to. So go ahead, take a stab. What's growing up? Define- What is a grown-up at all? You always have to start. Yeah, what is a grown-up? I don't know. That's my problem is I don't have a conclusion. I don't know. There are many different
00:07:47
Speaker
qualifications that if I were like, oh, how would I define this to like an alien? I would lay some things out with them in my real life. I'm not hitting them. You ain't grown up. You ain't grown up. No, I ain't. No. But that's okay. But I feel like I'm an adult though. Ooh, that's not the topic. But it's not the topic. Am I a grown up?
00:08:13
Speaker
It's interesting because we didn't even decide we were doing this until yesterday. But earlier, it was last week, I was sort of having this kind of conversation with a friend. And he has children at various ages ranging about our family. And he just kept repeating that his goal as a parent was to get his kids
00:08:40
Speaker
to you 25 and alive. Once they're 25 and alive, I'm done." And I was like, wow, you got really, really low stairs. If they hit 25 and they're still alive, you're just dropping everything and you're like, I succeeded. Yeah, I think he was being a little tongue in cheek there.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yikes. And I was like, well, uh, I got a 25 year old still living at home. He just moved back in. Okay. We don't have to air out the family tea. Um, well, I thought that's why we were doing this. No, we're talking like, um, more. Not metaphorically, but like in a broader sense, not so
00:09:29
Speaker
narrowed into our lives. So we brainstormed a little bit about the things that we wanted to hit on. And there's, what did it used to mean? What does it mean now? Because they're very different, I think, because of a couple reasons that might be controversial for me to say. Well, it's fine. Well, what did it used to be? That's a question for you. Well, I mean, I can go back to, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, but
00:09:59
Speaker
even beyond that, like growing, we were just at the museum yesterday, and they were talking about coal miners starting at age 13. Well, they said, they said, age six to 12, you would be working above ground. You'd still be working. So age six, like, what is what did growing up look like
The Decline of Independence in Modern Youth
00:10:17
Speaker
to those folks? Yeah, that's a tough life. Yeah. But that's that makes sense to me, because I think cultural requirements evolve over time. And so yeah, at the time, you needed, like,
00:10:29
Speaker
Need to dig that coal When I was growing up The generic expectation was kids job was to go to school and I grew up in a very fairly affluent background and so you know nice suburban education and you go to school you get good grades you go to college and then you're out of the house and
00:10:57
Speaker
And most of the time that worked, most of the people I graduated high school with, they didn't go back and live at home. That has definitely changed now. Which I think is due to a couple, not a couple, a bajillion different reasons. It could be due to, but we're not talking about the current housing market or job market. And we're not going to dive into that.
00:11:24
Speaker
We're not? Oh, okay. We might eventually and probably knock our tiny little heads on the bottom of the table. With special guest Chase? Gosh, so Chase can come on and rant about affordable housing? Yeah, that'd be great. Oh gosh. Eventually though, we do want to have producer Chase on the podcast as special guest. Of course. Because we've teased
00:11:50
Speaker
Content from him that have not had him. Yeah, it would be great if he could fix this whole thing. What's wrong with this? Looks great. These buttons and stuff up here. Oh, you mean our intro? Okay. This button. Stupid. Live feedback. But I moved back in with my parents.
00:12:20
Speaker
Well, there was a little bit of a reason. Because there was a pandemic. Right. A pandemic hit. School was pointless. Yeah. I wasn't going to stay alone in my apartment not doing school when you guys lived so close. And you're in hard science that requires lab work. Yeah. They tried to make me do an organic chemistry online lab. And it was like a computer game. And it was like, click and drag the beaker. Like, I'm not learning shit.
00:12:51
Speaker
That sounds like it would really pay off in a professional career, that class right there. It's so stupid. Yeah, so I moved home for that. But I mean, people are moving back in with their parents way more often now. And again, we're not going to dive into housing or job markets. But I do think a lot of it is the definition of being grown up has become looser.
00:13:20
Speaker
and it's not so forbidden anymore. My take on that is that the definition of being grown up is no longer related to any sense of independence. It's decoupled from you go to school, you get a job, you take care of yourself. That's not what grown up necessarily means. Grown up means I get to do more.
00:13:48
Speaker
I can drink, I can smoke weed. I don't even need to drive because I don't do that anymore. Kids don't do that. That's not part of the- Kids don't do that? They don't get driver's licenses. Is that true? I didn't know that. Well, you were on the normal, you were like, I want some freedom. Well, I'm a little bit past that now. My youngest brother, it's going to start driver's ed soon in a couple of years. Year and a half? Year and a half.
00:14:17
Speaker
And you're saying kids in that section aren't, they don't want to anymore? There are some that are still on that same, you don't get your license at 16, but there are a ton. They're like, why would I do that when mommy drives me around? That's very interesting. Plus there are kids that, kids just don't do as much anymore. Well, they don't do as much outside of the house. Right. There's organized events, like organized sports and activities. So this will bring me to another thing that just, I'm just going to be old man shouting at clouds.
00:14:48
Speaker
Like, there isn't any independence at a younger age. Kids are either on a screen or they're at an organized activity like sports or, you know, school activity, drama. And it's always with adults hovering over them. They don't just get kicked out of the house to go, you know, throw rocks at cars and stuff. And learn limits and learn independence and learn what little, little
00:15:18
Speaker
tastes of freedom that then motivates that next step in the freedom. Yeah. And I would even say being left to go do your own things without adult, not only intervention, but presence, I think puts the responsibility on the children to navigate complicated social interactions that they might not have had the responsibility to do.
00:15:47
Speaker
if a parent were present. And so if that is being taken away now, kids don't know how to navigate social situations properly anymore. The social like contract is kind of broken. Like again, we went to a museum yesterday and it was a Friday, middle of the day.
00:16:09
Speaker
And I, being dumb, was like, oh, it's like the middle of a work day. Nobody's gonna be here. And we show up and it's just slammed with children, like school groups. And... Rebecca would really prefer that no children grow up and that they all just go into the ocean. Yes. Well, or a child is born and is an adult immediately. You don't want the individual in the face.
00:16:36
Speaker
Please add value immediately. Yeah, don't be annoying for so long. But we were, you, me and mom were observing these children interact with each other and also with like strangers in the museum. And we were watching them like, what is going on with these kids? So, so embarrassing. They just don't either don't have an awareness, but I think more likely don't give a shit about
00:17:05
Speaker
how their actions affect all of the other human beings living lives around them. No, they've never had to learn that. Yeah, they've never had to learn that. What is it? The main character syndrome? Main character syndrome, yeah. So I think that you're describing a bunch of behaviors that are like, yeah, that's... So I think we're agreeing with each other that there's a crisis of people not growing up in today's culture. Yes.
00:17:35
Speaker
which is interesting because I just, we talked about pets last week. I know, just stick with me, all right? So pets, our pets, sometimes you can get a pet and you'll be like, oh, this pet didn't have enough parenting early on and it's crazy. And you can tell. And you can tell. Well, what is, it made me think, what are the ways that animals
00:18:05
Speaker
teach proper behavior to their young. And most of the time it's through play and then rapid feedback, right? Yes. So the behavior is constrained by immediate feedback from the mother. Immediate and strict feedback. Right. But it's premised on play.
00:18:29
Speaker
kids these days don't genuinely have play. Everything is directed for them. Even if they're playing video games, there's no real inventiveness there. And I think that that's a piece of the brain development that people aren't getting. They're not getting to your point about the social part. I think that's true too.
00:18:49
Speaker
in a similar way, like the independent social exploration and peer feedback. Dude, stop it. Immediate feedback from peers for sure. And you learn if you want to hang with people, you learn. Well, this is another thing that we were talking about. We do have a lot of interesting conversations off camera and off mic. So I'm sorry. That's why we do it. That's why we try to capture it here. But we've had multiple conversations about this.
00:19:22
Speaker
increased Epidemic I don't want to call it an epidemic that feels so dramatic but of people being unable to handle negative feelings like oh I was overly familiar with this person and they looked at me like I was weird So I had to call my mom so she would let me go home from school because it hurt my feelings so bad It's like no, no, no
00:19:46
Speaker
Or what was the one? You were overly familiar with that person and they looked at you weird because this is how social interaction works. You should take that and learn from it and move on. It feels bad because he did something strange, dude. Right. That bad feeling is supposed to teach you to not do that again. It's valuable still.
Defining Adulthood: Financial Independence and Parental Role
00:20:06
Speaker
Wasn't there one, I'm not going to remember where we got the story, but it was somebody who actually had, oh, we were talking about hiring fair.
00:20:15
Speaker
Oh my gosh. That somebody actually had an interview, a prospective employer had somebody come in and they brought their parent with them. And you said not just drove them to the building. No, walked into the interview with them and sat down next to them and then started answering questions for their child. And this kid was
00:20:44
Speaker
probably a high schooler, but of sufficient age to work, you know, whether it was a host or a dishwasher or something like that in a restaurant. And that's insane. That's actually crazy. And, and I feel a little bit, I think I feel more insane about this than you do because you're almost 51. So it makes sense that you'd be like, Oh, kids these days, age appropriate. I'm 24. And I'm like,
00:21:13
Speaker
Like my 18 year old sister says stuff and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like I feel so old compared to. You're an old soul. That's younger than I am. So it's very strange for me to realize that I've hit the kids these days. Age, so young. Yeah. Well, you're going to get good at that phase. I'm going to really hone my skills.
00:21:41
Speaker
in kids these days. Yeah. So, so yeah, we're, I guess, wow, we're just ranting about no one's growing up. Now we're just getting ourselves angry. How does it, what would it look like? Like what would it look like to grow up in this wild modern world with social media? Like what are the qualifications? What are things that you could say, either look to somebody and name things about them that make them a grownup or
00:22:08
Speaker
say these are the things you need to have to be a grownup. What are some things that you would say when you were growing up? What were the things that you thought in your brain? To be a grownup, these are the things I have to have. A plan just to be, I mean, it's basically for me, it was you have to be out of the house. Okay, out of the house. You're living on your own and you're taking care of your business.
00:22:37
Speaker
And that business could be, you know, you're still in college, but you know, your mommy and daddy aren't picking your classes for you. Right. Okay. But I have a question living on your own and doing your own thing, but how do you factor in like financial help from parents still?
00:22:57
Speaker
because a lot of kids in college are in college going to classes and picking their own classes and cooking food, doing all of the grown up stuff on their own. But it's all being paid for by parents. Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. So being independent doesn't necessarily mean you don't have family support across the board. There's a difference between
00:23:25
Speaker
you know, making the decisions for yourself and then having your parents support, uh, you know, financially, emotionally, all that kind of stuff versus your parents doing that. And then also providing all that emotional, like direct. That's a very good point. So I think that it's, there's certainly room for parents to be involved in supporting. And there's, I think nuance there too, like maybe
00:23:55
Speaker
there could be a situation where there's somebody who's paying for everything themselves, but relies on their parents to heavily weigh in on all of the decisions they make versus somebody who's not financially supporting themselves as much, but is making all of those decisions. So it could be, I mean, there are different categories that, yeah, I mean, it's a little bit person dependent, but that's what I'm saying. Like it's interesting that now we're like, well, there's nuance, you know, but,
00:24:23
Speaker
There's nuance, but I think we're taking slices of a subset of the current generation where the percentage of the current generation that would be, oh, we have got to give nuance and gray area is still really small, and most of them don't give a shit.
00:24:42
Speaker
That's what we were ranting about. So now that we're saying, oh, there's nuance, well, you're still, I think, talking about maybe 25% of the generation that I would have expected to be growing up right now. It's not. Well, no, I'm saying 25% is in that nuanced kind of way. And 75% is totally fucked. OK. Well, yeah, I think my group with
00:25:12
Speaker
A lot of people, okay, not around my age, a little bit younger than I am. So still technically in my generation, but I think here's another topic we could talk about is generations are becoming much more narrow as technology advances because it's, yeah. Like the Instagram versus the Tic Tac generation? Well, for some reason people are still using Snapchat, like children are using Snapchat. And I'm like, that became a thing when I was a teenager
00:25:42
Speaker
And pretty much immediately we were all like, this is stupid, kind of chucked it out. And the next group of kids picked it up and we're like, this is amazing. We're going to use this for every form of communication, which is another thing we could talk about, social media. We are, you are talking about social media right now. I mean, for an hour and a half. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be equipped to do that. I think so. You don't have thoughts about,
00:26:10
Speaker
As long as we're going to talk for an hour and a half on social media, I would want an hour 25 to be on Facebook. That's the only one I know. You don't have anything to say about LinkedIn or anything? Oh, I guess LinkedIn. People use LinkedIn as social media. Well, they use it for a dating app. I know that. I met, this is so off topic, but I met a couple that met on Facebook dating and they live together now.
00:26:39
Speaker
They have a child. How long ago did they meet on Facebook? Like five years ago. Okay. Okay. Back when it was sort of relevant. No, I can't say that. I was exposed to tea. I can't say that. It's okay. They're not going to ever see this. No, they're not. But I feel like I have to be loyal. Okay. That's very kind. I forget what we were talking about. While you were on a tangent about social media. I mean, before that. Yeah, I don't know. Okay. We lost it.
00:27:10
Speaker
Oh, qualifications to be grown up. So I took some notes, not notes, but I jotted down some thoughts. You didn't do the history of growing up like I did about pets? Damn, you should have told me I had to do that. I still think that's a good idea and I might do it. Shallow dive? I might do a shallow dive into certain topics. I was not prepared to do it for this one. I think for certain topics it works. Shallow dive into astrophysics.
00:27:40
Speaker
Oh, boy, are we diving into astrophysics? Hey, let's not leave it. If that star goes supernova and then we're going to go talk about it, right? I mean, might as well. Betelgeuse or something like... Betelgeuse? Betelgeuse. Betelgeuse. I don't know how to pronounce it. It's spelled weirdly, but it's pronounced the same. Betelgeuse? Yeah, because the people that made the movie named the guy after the star and just spelled it differently.
00:28:10
Speaker
Well, I'm just saying, if that goes supernova, we're going to have to talk about it. And maybe we'll do a shallow dive into. Like maybe current events. Yeah. That's on our list. But then that would mean we would have to start completely just. Oh my gosh. We could get my old astrophysics professor as our guest. Oh, right. From the Harvard. From the community college stint I did over COVID.
00:28:40
Speaker
I had this professor at community college for a physics credit that I just wanted to get out of the way. And she is an astrophysics PhD. She got her PhD in astrophysics from Harvard. And it's also a successful game designer. She's such a badass. And she has a bearded dragon that she would have on her shoulder when she taught us sometimes. She's such a legend.
00:29:09
Speaker
I love this. I genuinely, if we didn't ask for physics episode, I would email her and be like, Hey girl. Apingologies at that point. Yeah. Sorry, Allie. I mean, I think Allie will be fine. Oh, we could get her on as the expert on podcasts. Oh yeah. We'll do an episode just on podcasting. Yeah. We can have her on. We can do an episode on comedy and get the McElroy brothers on. They're not funny anymore.
00:29:42
Speaker
They're not, I'm sorry. They're so sick of each other. I think they're sick of the format and they just need to mix it up. Well, they've been podcasting for over a decade. I think they need to grow up, Rebecca. Look at that, just putting it back together. Full circle. Yeah, back to our topic again.
Stories of Feeling Grown Up
00:30:01
Speaker
Sorry, folks. This is how our normal conversations go. Yeah, it is. It's very authentic. I don't even know why would we want to have extra discipline put on it just because we're talking.
00:30:11
Speaker
Let's just, well, cause if we just keep talking with no goal, people aren't going to get bored and be like, naturally brought it back. This is so boring. They just won't shut up about nothing. I'm going to go listen to something more interesting. Like my brother, my brother. Like, like half the people already did. What do I do? We have to like introduce bits to keep people interested. No.
00:30:39
Speaker
No shallow dive is your bit. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that'll be a bit Okay qualifications for growing up Like I would say one Age is a pretty basic one. Oh Okay, that classically. It's a movie target to grow being a grown-up
00:31:01
Speaker
Right. It is a moving target. Yes, I agree. It's a culturally... So maybe I'm just pissed off because culturally the age to grow up is appropriately getting later. You think appropriately? I don't, but I'm just putting it out there. You're saying maybe it's an appropriate shift that I'm just being old and angry about. Maybe it was 13 back in the
00:31:27
Speaker
Oh, coal mining days or the, you know, 1200s or whatever, like get out of the house. We don't want to spread our play. And now it's evolved to, you know, it was 18 now that it was 20, 20s. And now, and now we're like, we got 25 year olds that don't know how to tie their own shoes. All right. I know. But it's, yeah, I think it's interesting the age because I've always felt older.
00:31:57
Speaker
than I am emotionally. I wouldn't say like mentally because I definitely like when I was a teenager, I was aware of when I was around adults. Like my brain is not like their brain. I can tell, but I've always- But you were making that evaluation, which is really weird. And I've always preferred like spending time with adults more than
00:32:24
Speaker
at least when I was a teenager, spending time with teenagers, which I think is pretty logical. Because teenagers, they suck so bad. But also, I like hanging out with your friends who are a bunch of 50-year-old people. They're not all 50. They're not all 50s. Some of them are 30, which is weird for you, less weird for me. I'm not dating them, they're just friends. Yeah, that's true.
00:32:54
Speaker
But they're grown up, by the way, mostly. Why? Why do you say that? Because, well, OK, that one that you're talking about is probably not so grown up. He's a special one. He did move out of mommy's house, so that's good. Yay.
00:33:19
Speaker
This is a person that will be on the podcast and it will be fun. And we'll speak the same way we're talking about him now to his face. For sure. But I've always felt older than I am, but I also still at age 24 don't feel like a grown up. Like when I'm out in public, I see other adults and I'm like, that's a grown up.
00:33:49
Speaker
and they look at me and they think I'm a child. I wish I understood that. But it's not true. Right, right. I wish I understood that because I still think. About yourself or about me? About myself. You don't think you're a grown up? No, no, no, no, no. Okay, so it stays that way. Yeah, but then like trying to teach myself that like, no, no, no, I'm the grown up in the room right now. You look at a situation, you're like, where's the grown up? And then you're like,
00:34:20
Speaker
I'm the grown up. Well, I've had moments like that before too. Well, since you were 10, you're like, oh crap, all these, my brothers are older than me, but I'm the grown up. Everybody here is a mess. Somebody needs to take control. But more recently than that, I've been, and I'm not gonna use names because I don't wanna expose people's personal shit. Sorry, I keep shaking the tail. Another earthquake. This is on me. But there was a situation
00:34:51
Speaker
when I was like 19 and one of my friends was struggling mentally and I was panic called by one of my other friends that was like, our friend is not doing well. We need to go to their house right now because they're like having suicidal thoughts and things are bad. We all need like all of our, like our friend group needs to come to their house and support them right now. And I was like, I'm on my way. But I lived like 45 minutes away at that time.
00:35:20
Speaker
So I drove in as quickly as I could. And when I got there, it was our friend group and this person's mom had had shown up because I assume one of our other friends had called her and was like, your child is not doing well. You need to come right now. So the mother was there. And I walked into this very tense situation where my friend was trying to express to their mother, like, I'm really struggling. I, I,
00:35:48
Speaker
like, I'm gonna do something bad if I don't have help right now. And they weren't like, like saying, you have to do this, this and this, or I'm gonna kill myself. Like it wasn't that, it was just this person was like, I'm not doing well and I need help, please help me. And their mother was literally standing there across the counter from them, telling them that they were wrong and they didn't feel that way and they were just being lazy. And I like walked into this conversation
00:36:16
Speaker
where the grownup in the room was saying these things to their child. And I looked around like, okay, like, I guess I'll be the grownup here. Well, perhaps you walked in. Nobody else here is gonna fix this. Perhaps you walked into the scene and went, symptom, somebody's struggling, cause. Cause is in the room. Toxic, awful parent.
00:36:43
Speaker
Proving why this person is struggling right now in front of us. So even then I was like, how does this fall to me to be the one kicking the mother out of the apartment and driving my friend to a mental hospital and checking them in? How is this my responsibility? I'm a child, but I was 19, so I wasn't really a child, but I didn't feel like an adult. Yep.
00:37:12
Speaker
I mean, I've had a somewhat similar experience as an adult, but that experience, obviously a little bit different based on the dynamics you're describing, but I do recall very clearly thinking, why does this fall to me? Why is this my responsibility? And I think that in that case, I think the
00:37:36
Speaker
there were good intentions from the friend group, right? Like, okay, we need to rally around and provide whatever support this person needs in that moment. Which is great. I think that's... The point of friends. Yeah, exactly. And the self-awareness to call for help, to ask for help is probably a pretty good indicator that you're growing up. It's better than just pitching a fit and throwing your toys.
00:38:06
Speaker
And it's better than just going to alcohol and drugs. And it's better than the friend group getting a call that our friend had died because they weren't able to ask for help when they needed it. Right. So that's an interesting example because I agree. You wouldn't think, oh, I'm going to go out and have this
00:38:31
Speaker
group of friends to support each other. And then it's going to get to that point or whatever escalate to the point where you have to tell the mother you need to get the fuck out because you are just making it worse. Yeah. Um, and also I didn't even say you need to leave. I said the shit that you're saying to this person right now is why they feel this way. And she was like, well, fine, I guess I'm not wanted here. And she left on her own. And I was like, okay, but to the point of our topic, like,
00:39:02
Speaker
quote unquote qualifications to be grown up. She had all of them. She was older. She had all of her, like she moved out of her parents' house, the mom I'm talking about, moved out of her parents' house forever ago, got married, had children, had a child that was at college. She had all of these qualifications where she should have been the grown up in the room and she wasn't. And I had almost zero of the qualifications and I was. So the,
00:39:33
Speaker
The category of grownup is like a shifting, maybe case by case. Maybe you had one of the most important qualifications of being a grownup though.
Art and Aging: Societal Perceptions
00:39:45
Speaker
Another friend, this is going to be the specific phrase that he uses, but it's applicable as a sort of generic phrase. A grownup wakes up in the morning,
00:40:02
Speaker
feeling like Pete Diddy. Shaves their face and goes to work. Not I. I understand. But his point was you don't sit around moaning about what is wrong with you. What is wrong with this person? You don't go to a job interview and tell them. Bring your mom. Bring your mom. You don't, you, you understand
00:40:26
Speaker
The job today is I'm going to wake up, I'm going to make myself presentable, and I'm going to show up for work. And I'm going to do the thing that I told other people I was going to do. Grownups show up. You showed up for your friend that day. It was you were the grownup in the room. I completed the agreement between me and my friend. Right. And the mother of the child did not complete that agreement.
00:40:54
Speaker
actively trying to destroy. She's a fucking piece of work. Yeah, I remember those days and it was because it wasn't just the one. No, she was consistently horrible. She was. She was a problem. And I hope she hears this. I'm talking to you. I hope she's so much better and very much apologetic for what she put her daughter through. I mean that is what I mean. Let's hope for the best. Plan for the worst. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Cheers to that.
00:41:22
Speaker
Let's go murder a bitch. That's what we do. Wait, what? Okay. Oh, okay. Here's another thing that actually, interestingly enough, oh, I forgot to take a sip. It's bad luck. It is bad luck. We went to an art museum today and there was one particular painting. Hey, it was good.
00:41:47
Speaker
We left and went. That was good. It was good. We went to the Art Institute of Chicago. Chicago, yeah. Beautiful. If you can't like that place, then you're dead inside. It's insane. It's insane. Okay. There was this particular painting that I can't stop thinking about. Mom and I both saw it at the same time and we both stood there like silent, staring at it. And then she goes, I hate this.
00:42:18
Speaker
And I was like, oh, okay. Which my mother is not an art appreciator in the first place. Art is stupid. Yeah, she believes that. What are you looking at? Was it this one? No, but it was by the same artist. Was it? Yes, it was. I'm going to show this just to the people. For the podcast viewers. Yeah. So this is going to be a new technology here, guys.
00:42:48
Speaker
Um, this is a piece called the picture of Dorian gray and it really see very well, but it's really gross and it's huge. It's like life size of a person. Um, and it's by Ivan Albright. Yeah. Um, anyway, let me look up this other one then. So it was the same artist, same artist. So she hated it. What was it? Ivan Albright. Um,
00:43:17
Speaker
who I've never heard of, but that doesn't mean anything. Me neither. But it was a painting about womanhood. I'm going to get on my soapbox now, about womanhood, but specifically womanhood and growing up. And it was this painting called- By Ivan? Is he allowed to have an opinion on that? It was this painting called Into the World, There Came a Soul Called Ida. Look it up. Ooh.
00:43:47
Speaker
painting of this woman, and when mom and I saw it, mom goes, oh, I almost missed the lumpy woman. Because it's this painting of a very old woman sitting in like, here, I'll show the viewers in the room. You can kind of see it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you get a sense of these things. They're not. A very old woman sitting in a chair, like how I imagine like,
00:44:15
Speaker
before a vanity, like powdering her face kind of. But she's sitting, she's old. You can tell she's old. Like her legs are lumpy and she's kind of like, you know, sagging in places. And she's wearing these clothes that you would expect a young, beautiful woman to wear. And like in the painting, you can tell she's wearing shoes that are too small for her now because you can tell that her feet are swelling out of them.
00:44:43
Speaker
It looks painful, and she's holding this mirror, but doesn't look like she wants to look in the mirror. It's tough to look at, honestly. When you look at it, you're like, I don't want to keep looking at this person. Tell me what I'm supposed to think when that painting is. The painting is about how women are constantly chasing the youth.
00:45:11
Speaker
and the value that is placed on youth specifically for women, so much so that it gets to a grotesque point. When you can tell that somebody's trying to make themselves something that they're not anymore, and it would be easier if they were comfortable in the skin that they had now versus trying to be still what they used to be. In the description on the wall, it was saying,
00:45:40
Speaker
the artist was intentionally painting her so that she was holding this mirror, but it looked like it was too heavy for her to hold up. And she just looked like she didn't want to look in the mirror. It was too hard for her to see what she looked like now. And it's a painting about how older women should place value in their age as much as they placed value in their youth.
00:46:09
Speaker
And I think that's a very interesting. I think it is. Like the stereotypical old man is allowed to be wise. Yes. And look like shit. Yeah. And the old woman, I mean, I think in certain cultures it's fine, but yeah, in the superficial culture of like. At least Western culture, I would say it's way more, like it makes me even a little bit sad to see like a very old lady
00:46:39
Speaker
with like bright red lipstick on and it's like not really on her mouth anymore because she doesn't really have skin on her lips. It's just kind of like around her mouth. It makes me sad. I'm like, you know, but okay. Like what are you trying to be? My love. Be what you are now. Stop living in the past. Be a grownup.
00:47:02
Speaker
I don't think she has trouble with being. No, I know. It's just yeah. It's like it just made me it was like I saw this painting. And I thought how interesting that I see this today when what we're talking about this evening is the idea of growing up and like I and I'm sure this is common. I know this is common. When I was younger always thought I can't wait
00:47:31
Speaker
to grow up because people will finally take me seriously. Like what I say will matter. But now I'm 24 and I see people my age, women my age getting Botox because they're starting to have frown lines or laugh lines. I'm like, you're 24 and if you have laugh lines or frown lines.
00:47:55
Speaker
Good for you, you lived, you had emotions, you experienced things. I don't understand why we're trying to pretend that like when we were all younger, we were all desperate to grow up and now that we're grown up, we're desperate not to be. It's just interesting. I think that this was part of a podcast that I was listening to. They're talking about the emotions and this ties in like the idea that as you are growing,
00:48:25
Speaker
You can't wait to grow up.
Personal Growth Through Negative Emotions
00:48:27
Speaker
Makes sense. It's a motivator to try new things and go out there and like put yourself out there. So it makes sense. But the emotions and the bad experiences are intended to teach you. And now we're teaching kids
00:48:47
Speaker
bad feelings should not be felt. Shouldn't be part of life. You should kind of tamp down any kind of negativity. Anxiety, oh, that's terrible for you. You should get rid of anxiety. Not even that. It's like nervousness, oh, you have anxiety. That's what it is. It's too extreme, right? Because there's no question. There's plenty of things that actually, people have crippling depression and crippling anxiety. Yeah, we need to help them.
00:49:16
Speaker
But there's apparently, definitely coming from the shallow end here, apparently there's really very little clinical evidence that drugs are a more effective tool for mild and moderate depression and anxiety versus just talk therapy.
00:49:41
Speaker
And, uh, that makes sense to my brain. Yeah. Obviously in really intense experiences, you need those. And sometimes maybe you just need them for a little bit of time to kind of get your, get your, get centered and then, um, and then move forward. But the idea that we want to eliminate.
00:50:02
Speaker
all bad emotions or experiences. It means that you don't develop. It means you don't develop with two boundaries or two bumpers on either side. You know
00:50:16
Speaker
The good side sometimes, but you're mellowing those too. What I was about to say is, I don't know enough to be able to cite this, but I know that this is a thing that people say. That's as much citing as I have. If everything was good all the time, it wouldn't be good anymore. It would just be our normal. It's important to have variety in experiences so that
00:50:45
Speaker
you're able to appreciate the good things when they do come because you know how lucky you are to be experiencing that. That's how I feel at least. I'm able to appreciate the good in my life way more because I know what the bad looks like. At least it makes sense. It's the valleys that make the peaks feel good. You wouldn't have peaks if it were all peaks. It'd just be flat. And then you'd just pass out from lack of oxygen.
00:51:16
Speaker
I don't know exactly who would want to do that and that's our point don't hike Mount Everest this was a secret topic for sure don't because you're gonna get up there you're gonna get lost the wind is blowing it's really cold then you're gonna take all your clothes off and you're freezing that yeah that's what they do when they start to get
00:51:40
Speaker
Why do they take all their clothes off? It's the weird thing that happens when you're freezing to death. You suddenly, your brain is in like, I'm going to make you feel hot because we're about to die. You feel like you're overheating. Well, they're going to freeze to death anyway. I've heard that if you're in a very cold like situation, like if you're stranded and it's snowy, if you feel cold, you're
00:52:07
Speaker
You should find help, but you're still okay. But the second you don't feel cold anymore. You're really, really in need. Or if you feel sleepy. It's like, nope, you're dying. You need to get immediate help. Yeah. Wow. We're a survival podcast team. We went on another freaking tangent. God damn it. Whatever. So we've solved a lot of problems already. We've done some art criticism.
00:52:37
Speaker
some kids these days. Kids these days, old man shots at clouds. We've only consumed not even half a bottle of wine. I just finished my one glass that I started with. I was talking too much to be able to drink. Yeah. Oh, ASMR. Oh, man. Beautiful. Polyon wine, polyon wine, polyon wine. Polyon wine, hashtag sponsor. Sorry, we have to, it's like 12 times per episode or something like that.
00:53:06
Speaker
Thank you, Paulie. Love you. Paulie will be a guest sometime too. What would that be really fun? What would we talk about? It can't be wine because you have your own podcast about that. I could talk about wine. We could do a joint podcast. Oh no, talk about joints? Wait, no. Don't do drugs, kids. Or do, if you want to. I want to see what other... I feel like we missed one of your big points.
00:53:34
Speaker
I kind of hit value placed on youth versus wisdom. Yeah. Oh, you're grown up decision point. My grown up decision point. Yeah, you came up with that one. Well, okay, but I think I kind of already hit on it. From your story, like grown up show up, it's kind of grown up decisions are the things that the times like, well, also, there's the
00:53:58
Speaker
I think that's a little bit different because in that situation I wasn't like sitting there like, damn, let me really work through what I want to do here. Like I was like, okay, here we go. Game face, you know, we have to do something because that's my point. But, but when I think about grown up decision, like I think I'm personally working through a couple of those in my head right now and have been for quite a few months. So like to meet grown up decision,
00:54:29
Speaker
at least personally, by default is something that takes a while to work out. Like it's something that has true, genuine thought behind it. Like it's not a snap decision. Okay. Personally. I understand, but I do think that I think, I guess my, yes, but the, the point of the story that you told about getting the call from your friend,
00:54:57
Speaker
that snap decision was a grownup decision. It was the grownup decision to say friends show up for each other. Okay. I guess I'm thinking when I think grownup decision, I'm thinking personally for my own life. I know. I know. That's where you were saying it's kind of, we're talking about different things there.
Consequences and Decisions: Keys to Adulthood
00:55:11
Speaker
So, you know, do I buy a house? Do I, do I go to grad school right away? Those are grownup decisions. Sure. Um, I think that those are the consequences of actually being grownup though.
00:55:27
Speaker
they're not requirements for? No, no. As a matter of fact, I don't want you making them unless you're actually grown up enough to make them. Okay, agreed. But wouldn't you say, like, I think this is a chicken egg situation. Wouldn't you say you can't truly be a grown up until you've made one of those decisions, like, and felt the weight behind it and felt the responsibility because you're feeling the fallout from your decision? Yeah, because I think
00:55:53
Speaker
Back to kids these days, a lot of the problem is kids make decisions and don't have to deal with the consequences. I think... Oh, there you go. I think that's an excellent point. Because consequences, at least for me, are where I've learned most of my most valuable lessons. A grown-up understands the consequences of their behavior and their decisions. Okay.
00:56:14
Speaker
Well, thank you for coming to the bottom. No, I think that's a really good point. I think you just brought us to that point. I think that's a really great way of crystallizing it. And it doesn't mean that grownups always make the right decision, right? Yeah. Heck no. I mean, I've watched Chicago drivers and most of them are grownups and they make some poor, poor decisions. Seriously, almost watched like five people die.
00:56:43
Speaker
in this weekend. Both driving and walking. We watched a guy driving very busy intersection cars driving at full speed
00:56:56
Speaker
We have 30 to 40 miles an hour. 30 to 40 miles an hour. Both directions. And this guy just doesn't look, doesn't slow down, just waltzes into the intersection. And obviously you braked because you didn't want to murder a man today. Not today. Not today. Maybe tomorrow. Today is not that day.
00:57:14
Speaker
But we all turned around in the car to watch what happened as he went into the next lane. And he nearly got hit. And then when the car screeched to a halt in front of him, he went like he was in the right. We all lost our minds. He was raised by a culture that did not turn him into a functioning grown-up. True. Or maybe his opinion that
00:57:44
Speaker
Everything he does, he deserves, and he's right about. Maybe he's doing great. Well, because sometimes that helps. Till a CTA bus clips his head. Yeah, right. Till he just is pancaked. Because I can tell you, the bus drivers aren't going to give a single damn about his right to the cross. There was crossing. I'm a pedestrian. He's going to be like, oh, timetable says I got to be right up there in one minute.
00:58:14
Speaker
Sorry, I didn't see you. Oops. Okay, so yeah. Grown-up decisions. Grown-up decisions. Well, you were saying something about grown-ups making bad decisions or something. I don't know. I've never experienced- Grown-ups can make a shut up. I'm kidding. I have. It seems like you want to get something off your chest there. Are we going to fight on the podcast today? About my bad decisions? Oh, no. Not yours. I was just talking about how I haven't made any.
00:58:43
Speaker
All I've made are good decisions ever. Oh, I thought you hadn't made grownup decisions yet. That can also be true. No, I think you have. I think I have too. And I think your point about grownup decisions not being SNAP decisions, they're more considered. You're thinking about multiple perspectives, analyzing things like what are the pros, what are the cons?
00:59:13
Speaker
What are the outcomes from the possible choices I have and how happy am I with these outcomes? And I also think, not to toot my own horn, but when I was a teenager, I think I was aware that I did not have the information and the experience to be making. Yeah.
00:59:41
Speaker
decisions like that. And I think I was, not in all cases, but in some cases, I think I was pretty good at seeking out opinions from people that I did think had the correct information and experience. I know some of what you're probably thinking about, and I would argue that you
01:00:08
Speaker
still did in pretty much every circumstance seek out the support of folks around you that you thought might be able to add value, even if in the end you kind of charted your own path and dealt with consequences. Yeah, dealt with consequences for sure. Should we talk about
01:00:34
Speaker
future podcast topics around that? No, we should. No, definitely no, is the answer to that one. Okay. I think we can continue skirting around it and referring to it very cryptically like we have today. I like it. Look forward to more of you guys. We have been podcasting though for almost exactly an hour.
01:01:00
Speaker
Which means that it's time to talk about what we're going to talk about next. Oh, gosh. Have we solved it? No, we wrapped it up. We solved it. Have we solved it? Because remember, we concluded. Growing up? Being a grown up means making decisions with full knowledge that consequences will happen. And they're on you. They're on you. The blowout, the fallout, the fallout is on you. The blowout is when you have adult
01:01:30
Speaker
You make adult decisions, and then that turns into a little baby. Ew. And then it. Hey. Oh, and it poops too much in its diaper. To me, a blowout is when you get a bad tattoo and the ink spreads. You know what? Under your skin. In a grand scheme of things. That one's not as bad. I'd prefer that. Listen, hey, we could talk about some of the blowout, your blowouts. Have I? I think I was probably a perfect baby and never did that and cleaned my own diapers, I think.
01:02:01
Speaker
We can move on. Let's look at our list. I keep shaking the table. I'm so sorry. I think this topic was a pretty good middle ground in terms of intensity. I feel like it got more intense than I expected it to. I started with the fucking Toys R Us theme song. Yeah, but you always start with bullshit. Oh, thanks. That's your bit. Starting with bullshit? Yeah.
Responsibilities and Changing Perceptions of Adulthood
01:02:29
Speaker
Let's talk about pets, baby. Okay. But it is kind of, it does kind of flow so far in the sense that it's just chaos, like our topics too. Oh yes. Like, okay. Yeah. You got to know who we are, why we're talking to each other. But we went from that. We immediately went to religion.
01:02:54
Speaker
Yeah. Which I don't, I feel like you could do like, yeah, whatever. We could do like three more podcast episodes about religion, I think. Yeah. But. Well, I think that's very authentic to us because we don't, when we actually have like these conversations in the wild, we don't go into them being like, we have to stick to our category.
01:03:17
Speaker
I have. Well, that's true. And I have an idea. I just had an idea. Just now? This is the spark of inspiration just struck. Oh, exciting. Wait. No, it was a spark of inspiration. I thought it might have been gas. You have to go like this. Eureka. No, you have to do it. What if one of these times we did the hot button lightning round?
01:03:44
Speaker
where we just literally time ourselves where we come up with like the crazy, awful topics and we do. Like five minutes per topic. And if you don't explain yourself perfectly by the end of five minutes, what you said is just done. And then we just, you have your list of topics and then I have my list of topics. We're presenting them to each other.
01:04:12
Speaker
but we're still discussing them back and forth. It's like a Socratic kind of thing. I don't think that's the right way. Socratic is the question and answer, right? Well, in school when they said we're doing a Socratic seminar, that means that everybody has to participate. Okay, so it would be more like you have your list of topics and you'd say, this is what I think. Five minutes go and we both go back and forth real quick. And then when the timer goes, it's like, well, you're done. What you've said is done.
01:04:43
Speaker
Maybe we'll just call that our solve that. Solve that special. Because at that timer and we go solve that and then move on to the next thing. Okay, I'll add it to my list. That's really good. That would be fun, right? Yeah. And we wouldn't, it wouldn't be a... We wouldn't, you know, go too crazy. No, it would be authentic to the shallow end.
01:05:05
Speaker
Yes, quite shallow. And also, again, authentic to the actual conversations that we have. Because we sure say some stuff and then move on very quickly. So for next episode, though, do you want to do that or do you want to do something else? I think we need to have a little more time to think through that. Yeah, I'll definitely need time to come up with a list.
01:05:35
Speaker
What do we think, what do we think about, oh, we could do the shallow and book club. That would be fun. You wanna do book club? It'd be just like books. That's a little bit of a back and forth again. We could do books that are influential to ourselves personally. Books that are influential to, I think, the family that, because I grew up in a very book heavy household.
01:06:04
Speaker
And then maybe books currently that we're either reading or can't stop thinking about or are heavy on our minds currently. That'd be interesting. And then wrap it up with a lightning round of book versus movie, which was better.
01:06:18
Speaker
That would be fun because I actually have some controversial thoughts on this. Oh, because sometimes the movie is better, damn it. Okay. Yes. My favorite movie right now, I think the reason I love it so much is because the book was precious. Well, I'm not going to say it. The book was precious to me as a child, like beat up. I reread it so many times and I think the movie is better than the book. Oh, that's a good teaser to leave on. So next episode,
01:06:45
Speaker
We'll do the shallow and talk about the shallow and we're going to institute the shallow and book club, which is the way to make shit tons of money. Just stick a sticker, create a book club. We're going to be the shallow and book club is going to now propel books to the top of the bestseller list and then we're going to secretly sign
01:07:10
Speaker
development deals for the movie version of the books. Oh, I see. Before we even put a sticker on. Reese Witherspooner. It's Reese Witherspooner. Yeah, I think it's her. That's her whole business model these days. I love it. Good for her. Queen. And on that note. Thank you so much for joining us again for those that came back. We love you guys for being so loyal and also tolerant. Thank you for being so tolerant. We'll see you next time.
01:07:40
Speaker
on the shallow end. Love you. Bye. Bye bye.