Transcript
Speaker: Well, hello, shallow friends, and welcome back to another episode of your favorite podcast, and certainly mine, The Shallow End. So some of you are probably thinking, all right, there's a new voice and it's not my conscience, thank God, because that guy sucks, but it's also not Jessica or Kevin or Rebecca or Scott, so respectfully or not. Who the hell are you?
Speaker: Well, I'm producer Chase. It's good to finally meet you. And episode six marks the first episode that I've actually produced in any capacity for the shallow one. So I'm excited about it. I hope you're excited about it. You should be. I listened to it already. It's really good. Ah, producer Perks. Anyway, quick backstory before we get into this. We originally lost
Speaker: all the files for this episode. So as we do for you on the shallow end, because we love you.
Speaker: We jumped headfirst into the black hole that is the internet. Fought a bear, fought two bears, got a bottle of wine, got a couple of illegal UIs, maybe not in that order, but all that to say, we have the files and they're here and they're polished and they're ready for you. So without further ado or whatever, sit back, relax, maybe pour yourself a glass of wine and enjoy episode six of The Shallow End.
Speaker: Just take cues off of how you're talking. Here we go. No cues. Here we are. It's just begun. I don't even know what we're doing. I don't know what we're doing either. I thought that maybe I would follow you. Okay, we're gonna do this. Here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're gonna do. Ready? Yes. We're learning. We're absolute amateurs at all of this.
Speaker: Okay, so we think we're starting. I mean, restarting. We think we're starting episode six of The Shallow End. Full disclosure, we've already recorded six and a half minutes. Maybe everybody will get that. I have no idea. Maybe you guys will hear that and maybe you won't. There's some hidden lore. We won't repeat it.
Speaker: It's been actually kind of depressing. It's not a good six and a half minutes. Perhaps our dear podcast friends, Zencaster, have decided that it was not worthy of our shallow friends. They decided to save the world from it rather than let us. Which is fine. I get it. Respect. Sometimes we need correction.
Speaker: Sometimes we need somebody else to edit what we say because we're not very good at it. It would be great if we had our producer. Is that a call out for me or for Chase? I mean, yes. Well, but here we are. We're two minutes into being really awkward about how it was really awkward.
Speaker: Um, you know, it wasn't, it's not awkward until you call it out for being awkward. So. Yeah, but that's okay. I think one of our things over the course of all of history is going to be being awkward. All of history. Okay. Yeah. I mean, all of podcast history. Oh, don't want to, you know, make our heads too big. You know, we have to stay humble and grounded. Remember where we came from. We know that one of the
Speaker: one of the potential guests that will never be on the pod is your mother. She would definitely reinforce the idea of awkwardness throughout all of history. It's just unnecessary. Let's just move on. That's very true. Okay, so yeah, I have to call out
Speaker: Paulie again, again, I just did it five minutes ago. We love our bestie bestie Paulie who sponsors the podcast every time we do this, this time with a lovely wine from South Africa. I'm not going to say the inappropriate joke I said. He said something racist last time.
Speaker: I did, it wasn't racist, it was just inappropriate. If you call out like that, I might as well have said it. That's dumb. You did say it. But you said, I said something. Dad, we'll move on. Tell us more about this beautiful juice of the grape that Polly has given to you. So much for second chances. This is a lovely, oh gosh. Oh, what?
Speaker: Drinking during pregnancy can be harmful to your unborn baby. Are you pregnant? Thank you, South Africa, for letting me know that. Well, every bottle of liquor or alcohol has that. Did you know that? I'm going to go ahead and just say yes. South Africa.
Speaker: Okay. This is called Field Atlas 2018 from Noble Hill. It's delicious. It's lovely. I really appreciate Paulie for passing this along. What are you, what are you drinking there? Okay. Let me tell you my story about this wine because my father texted me today and said, don't forget to bring your Josh.
Speaker: Because last time we recorded from separate cities, I almost forgot to have wine, which is like half of our whole draw. Yeah, didn't you go to Walgreens and get a bottle? Well, I live near a Rite Aid. Rite Aid, sorry. So I went to Rite Aid and... Hang on. I got the whole Walgreens sponsorship tonight.
Speaker: Because I did that again today. I was on my way back from studying and I was like almost home and I was like, fuck. Oh, virtue signaling, aren't we? Yes, I am. Well, sorry, let me correct myself. I was on my way back from my meeting with, with the guy that runs the lab that I work in. Here we go. So, but I was almost home and I was exhausted and I was like, fuck, I forgot to get wine for tonight. So I stopped because the writing is like,
Speaker: on the street that I live on. So I went into the Rite Aid and I stood in front of the wines and I was like, okay. I'm really not asking for much here. I just want one bottle. That's not from California. Please. No, they don't have it at Rite Aid. Well, maybe Argentina. They had one bottle from Argentina. I'm so smart.
Speaker: Dave Matthews brand. A dreaming tree, yeah. Yes. It's good. It's actually not bad. It's really not bad at all. No, it's not bad. And the tree reminds me of the giving tree. Yes, it's lovely. It is lovely. Good job. So that's what I'm drinking tonight. Thank you, thank you. And also, okay, wait, there's more to the story because I went to check out. I'm already proud. You can stop now. No, no, no, this isn't, I went to check out. I know it's not about me. I know it's not about you.
Speaker: or me, I went to check out and this poor cashier was so flustered. She was clearly very stressed that the line was three people long. Like that was too many people. So I get up to the, like to cash out and I gave her my bottle of wine and she brought out this cute little paper bag to put it in because it's classy at Rite Aid and the bottle of wine. No, because you're a wino is what she meant. Yeah. And it broke through the bottom and shattered all over the ground.
Speaker: Oh, shit. So I had to go back and get another one. And she just also, I looked back as I was leaving and she just kept bringing people up with like glass and wine all around her. Yup. She's kept going. I was like, okay. Okay. She's your, she's your favorite now. That's a bad ass. I don't know. I was worried about her. No, that's, that's someone who's just like, okay. Not my problem.
Speaker: Well, she seemed very nervous and anxious. Yeah, whatever. She dropped, whatever. So I made it out of there with my Dave Matthews bottle. With your second bottle of Dave Matthews wine. Yes, the Flora Rite Aid is now lapping up the other bottle. Lovely. Well, because this isn't, it's not officially a wine podcast. No, not yet, wink.
Speaker: Good story. By the way, that took a lot longer than the dying cat story that we lost. I was going to say, we've officially made it past six and a half minutes, so I'm feeling good. And I think it's probably better content as well. So let's just move on. So thanks, Paulie.
Speaker: I don't want to thank Rite Aid for wine, I just don't. Thanks Dave Matthews for not shitting on us tonight. Oh my god, are you bringing up the Chicago story? Not Chicago, but it happened in Chicago, right? It did, and we were just there.
Speaker: Anyone who's interested in really learning about wine should check out Under the Vinfluence. Oh my gosh. Wherever all of your favorite podcasts are sold, that's where Under the Vinfluence will be available. They have one episode so far. Shut up. Check it out. I'm saying check it out. I'm being supportive.
Speaker: No, you're not. You're kind of being jealous. I'm jealous, you're right, I'm jealous. You're so jealous. No, I said judgy, not jealous. Well, both. But also, I just want to, again, thank all of the shallow friends that have given us support, feedback, these amazing notes. We, considering how
Speaker: meaningless this podcast really is. We get an amazing amount of really cool feedback. We really do. We do. And it's fun. It's cool. I think before we started the first time, not the second time, I told you that I talked to one person who said, oh, I caught up on all
Speaker: five episodes and uh his biggest point of feedback was he it was really cool that you guys figured out the audio issue and i'm like uh okay cool
Speaker: Like, now you can hear us. I don't know. We haven't figured shit out. We're on the second try of this. Actually, and also, before we started the first try, we workshopped for about 30 minutes trying to get each other to hear each other without an echo. No. We were supposed to start at 9, 10, 15.
Speaker: I know, but I appreciate, I appreciate, and here I am like leaning over and there's like bright lights behind me. Yeah, I just love my bright light behind me. Is that better? No, that's so much worse. I appreciate the fact that somebody invested that much time into listening to us talk. Just because that's really what this is about. Yeah. I got feedback.
Speaker: today about our last episode from somebody that I didn't even know was listening. But when I found out that they were, I was so flattered, honored that they decided. Spill the tea. Who was it? Well, it's one of Chase's friends, Nick. OK. But we're like almost the same person. Could he be a producer? He could be a guest. Could he be a producer, too? Come on. He could be a guest. He is smart.
Speaker: I always make a joke. Like, that's a requirement? Yes, clearly. I always joke with Chase that he basically found... Okay, now I have to scratch map extra off the list. Well, okay, two out of three is good enough, I guess. I make a joke with Chase always that he basically found the female version of Nick to start dating, and that's what I am. Like, he and Nick are really good friends, and he just found the female version of it.
Speaker: So anyway. Does that mean you're gonna date Nick? No, no, you can't. That's not right. No, no, no. I'm saying Nick and I are pretty much the same person. And Chase was so... He hates it too. He hates when I say it also. Don't worry. Hey, I'm gonna... It's time to reload. I don't like any of the way that that ended. Okay, well... Sorry to have stepped over you on the Mad Baxter thing.
Speaker: I'll just cry about it later. Another thing we're trying to work on, right? Is the idea of not stepping over each other. The problem is, well, we both kind of do because when we talk, I'm half a quarter Italian and you were raised by an Italian man and Italians love to talk over each other in conversation. It's kind of part of,
Speaker: how it goes. So precisely. But when we're recording, it's not fun to listen to when we're just talking over each other and you can't really hear what either of us are saying. So we're working on it is what we're working on. We are, we are all works in progress. Oh, by the way, um, we should probably actually talk about the,
Speaker: thing that we're going to talk about now that we're... Last time it was six minutes in and we flushed that down the toilet. We're now about 14 minutes in. We should probably say something. Yeah, let's start going. Want to introduce the topic? I get to do it? Yeah, go for it. Okay, cool. Because I know you hate it when I give all of my background on the topic. You don't like that. So just do it. Do you have a background for this one?
Speaker: Did you research books? I guess not. Well, actually, we joked that I prepared. I actually finally prepared for an episode. There you go. This is the first one that I did pre -planning for. You might as well start. No? So, okay. I got a whole sheet. My bad, my bad, my bad.
Speaker: Um, yeah, today we're doing the first we hope of many shallow and book club episodes. Um, which will not actually be like a book club, but it will be a club where we talk about books. So, but only when we want to, and we don't really care what anyone else thinks. And you can all suck it also. And we're not reading together. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So you prepared a bunch of stuff. Not a bunch. Well, I want to ask you a question. Okay. Did you prepare to talk about specific books that you truly like love and are... Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I did. Did you? Because you're trying to sell books? No, because, okay, because
Speaker: I love books. I'm a big breeder. I actually just finished a book today and I'm still thinking about it. Yeah, big flex right there. I was reading it on the bus and I was so self -conscious because I didn't want people to think. Yeah, but I didn't want people to be like, fuck that girl reading a book on a bus. Who's she trying to be? But I was like genuinely did just want to read my book. Anyway, um, what was I saying?
Speaker: I don't know. You were finishing a book today. It's gone. What else? Oh, I'm a big reader. I'm a big reader and I have been my whole life. And so obviously there are certain books that I feel like had a big impact on who I am now because I read them at such critical growth points. Okay. So those are the ones that I compiled. Okay.
Speaker: And these are all probably, I hope, mostly predictable to me. Like I can probably, okay. You could name them, I bet, because yeah. But I would love to talk first up here about the types of books you like.
Speaker: the style, the things that you enjoy about literature that speak to you and are the things that stay true where you can, like the things that wind up making it so that you can read a book four, five, six times. And it's always good. And you hope they make the movie about it. And then we'll get into the specific ones that we both have.
Speaker: Yeah. So tell me about that. Like what is the type of book, the type of story that resonates with you? Okay. Well, number one, I'm a fantasy girl. I, but like I think every single one, yes. Every single one of my books that I put on my list of books that impacted me are all fantasy and they're all written by women, which isn't a requirement, but it is a,
Speaker: big signifier of something that I'll like more. I struggle a lot with the way that men write women because it just doesn't feel correct to me whenever I read a book where a man tries to write a woman. But also. Does that mean that, do you care whether the primary focus of the story is a
Speaker: Male versus female character. I don't care. Or is it more the style of the writer? Like the voice that you start with? Kind of both. I don't really care if it's a male versus a female main character. What I do care about in notice, which I don't think most men that I know notice, is when every character of significance is a man and every female character introduced is a tool to
Speaker: to help, you know, the character development of the male. Or, you know, none of the women are fleshed out humans, and I do notice that, and that bothers me. I can't read books like that. But yeah, I mean, I'm perfectly happy reading a main character that's a male. Like, one of the books that I almost put on my list that I didn't is, you know, male main character. I didn't say the name, but I just said the main character was male.
Speaker: We got to tease a little bit. But I think for me, when you said something that you can reread over and over, that's important because there have been other books that I've really, really enjoyed but haven't made it onto my list of books that I think if somebody said to me, choose three books that represent you the most, they wouldn't make it onto my list because I find I really resonate with books that
Speaker: aren't fully focused on the actual like plot so much as they're character driven. I really like character driven books. So those are way, like I'm way more likely to reread a book where mostly I just get to hang out with these characters again, you know, cause I love them. Interesting. Okay. And yet I would argue that a lot of the books that I know you like are pretty fricking intense books.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely very strong characters and character development, but I mean, character development means they go through some shit, right? Yeah, like the one I finished today, they fight an entire war in the course of the book. So it's not like nothing's happening, like things are happening. Right. But yeah.
Speaker: So what about you, though? By books, she means she watches Marvel movies. Oh, don't say that about me. That actually hurts my feelings. Why would you say that? I'm sorry. So so style, I think stylistically, I think if we were to match each other by about the age, I was a fantasy person in my earlier age.
Speaker: I'm more of a blended kind of, as I had children, I get more young adult kind of fiction, which is a lot of fantasy, a lot of, some of it is, I mean, John Green, Fault in My Stars, that kind of stuff. It's like, eh. I liked reading it because it was interesting to see what stuff was being thrown in the face of,
Speaker: kids who are actually reading in the moment. And I don't mind it. I think it's actually a great story. I'm not going to reread it because, well, it's just not fun.
Speaker: Because it's sad. It's sad. I don't want to read sad shit. This is just who I am. I don't want to watch sad shit on TV either. But fantasy science fiction, I grew up more of a science fiction person. My dad was a science fiction person from back in the day.
Speaker: So I have more of that influence in me in terms of the things that I like to read. And I like the idea that science fiction and fantasy gives us exposure to stories that don't have a limit of our current existence, but then also a lot of them are very aspirational.
Speaker: So when you think of the fantasy settings that stories are written in or the science fiction settings that stories are written in there, that's, that's what attracted me to them. It's like these, these are, uh, the most optimistic kind of settings. And then they put drama on top of it. Interesting. That's, that said,
Speaker: The ones, and this is why I say this, the ones that I come back to don't necessarily fit that. Don't fit into that. Okay, I think I can predict probably one of the books? Or maybe two? Of course you can. Oh, two. Okay. Maybe two. Mega credit if you can pick two. Okay, that makes me way less confident. But I'm confident in the one that I'm almost sure is on your list. Bring it. You want me to say it now?
Speaker: Yeah, let's go. Okay. I'm almost 100 % confident that Lamb is on your list. It was not on my list. It was not on your list. Okay. I'm happy to talk about it. The other one I was going to guess is Ender's Game? Of course. Yes, that one is 100 % on my list. Okay. But I will talk about both of those to whatever extent you would like to talk about them. Actually, your copy of Lamb is in my bookcase right now.
Speaker: I haven't heard it. Give it back. I'm so sorry. I just... It's basically the time that I'm supposed to be rereading Lamb right now. Yeah, it's Lent right now. It's about to be easy. It's Holy Week. Oh, boy. Well... Should we talk about Lamb? Sure. Should we never finish... I'm halfway through. I put it down and I never picked it back up. I'm so sorry. Okay. I might pick it back up. Can I talk about it?
Speaker: Yes, you can talk about it. You've heard me talk about it so many times and it's not sunk in. The 20 people that might listen to it haven't heard you say this. So Lamb is a novel. Let's be clear. It's a novel. It's a fictional story written by Christopher Moore.
Speaker: It's subtitle is the gospel of Jesus Christ as told by his childhood friend Biff. It's actually the gospel according to Biff, Christ's childhood pal. I'm sorry, I fucked that up. No, you were very close. I kind of Biffed it. And the story is, Christopher Moore is a brilliant,
Speaker: Um, uh, he's a brilliant author with a bunch of really cool. Modern fiction, fantasy slash weird, like weird stuff. That's what he writes. And this, I think is his Magnus open, whatever they call that magnum opus, whatever Magnus open, is that same thing? No, not really.
Speaker: Whatever. Same letters, different words. He's basically writing a gospel. He's writing a story of Christ in a way that is just wildly inappropriate. So horrible. But as a believer, not actually
Speaker: making me feel bad about it. He's humanizing Jesus. He's proposing a thing that could have happened. And I have said multiple times to multiple people when I recommend this book, the story at the end of the Passion, the Holy Week, when we're recording right now, or Wednesday,
Speaker: You know, like it's Holy Week. The story at the end of this book makes me cry every time I read it. And I read it, I think I've read it five times. And it doesn't matter how many times I read it. It's entertaining for a long time. And then it makes me cry because it's so human.
Speaker: And it's not because I think it's trying to convert anybody or like There's no sudden change in the tone of the book. He's just so good at saying I'm not a believer but if I was gonna write a story about this guy and
Speaker: This is how I would do it, and this is how it would end, and it just hits. It's really good. I love the book. It's his most popular book. I highly recommend it. We don't have to do it. We don't have to - I might need to read it, like finish it now. I mean, this is the perfect week to do it. Yeah. I mean, you haven't yet, so I don't know why you would suddenly do it. Well, okay. Actually, this -
Speaker: If we're going to bring the book club on the road, you're going to have to fucking read that book. I know. Well, okay. This, I've tried to read it a couple of times, but this read through is the furthest I've gotten because I'm about halfway through and I've never gotten that far. So you don't like it. I'm hopeful. No, I like it, but I do get to my limit with like the tone.
Speaker: You know, like those kinds of jokes, I can kind of hit it's a very masculine tone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does make me laugh, but then I've finished like two chapters and I'm like, all right, that's enough of that for today. You know, as compared to like other books where I can just rip through them and not put them down, you know? So it's not a bad book. It's just slow going. Oh,
Speaker: No, not, okay, whatever. Say something about your books now. No, please. Well, okay, so I have one, two, three, four. No, just one, just start. And then a series. I have a bunch too. Well, I'm just saying. Show me yours, I'll show you mine. Oh gosh, that's a bad thing to say. You're my daughter. To your daughter. Sorry. Sorry.
Speaker: Sorry. Okay, well, one of them on my list is the one that I finished today. And it's by the same author that wrote three of the other books on my list. So this was predictable from my side, right? Yeah, you knew. Because I have tattoos for two of the books. Two of the four books I have tattoos for. So clearly they're meaningful. I do not have a lamb tattoo. Oh, not yet.
Speaker: Not yet. You still have a lot of life to live. Um, but the book that I, oh, it's over there. I'm not going to get it, but the book that I finished today is called fire and it's by the author Christian Cashore. And it, I've, I've obviously read it a billion times before actually to not today, yesterday, I noticed the inscription, the inside inscription, cause the book was a gift.
Speaker: And it was from one of our shallow friends on my 13th birthday. My grandma and grandpa, our listeners from North Carolina, gifted it to me on my 13th birthday. And it's made my list. I've read it so many times. I genuinely don't know how many times I read this book. I love it so much. But I wrote reasons why it
Speaker: means so much to me and I realized as I was typing out my thoughts that when I first read the series of books by this author, this book was actually of the three, the least impactful to me when I first read it. But now rereading it as a 24 year old with all of this weird experience, life experience that I have, I was like crying at this book. Like I felt like it hit me so much harder.
Speaker: Yeah, which is cool. But back it up. So like, is it what? So Kristin Cashore, what's the series is what? It's called the Graceling series because the first book is called Graceling and then Fire and then and then Bitter Blue. But the thing is, it's not like a series like
Speaker: you're following the same character on a journey across the three books. Each book has a different main character. They're from the same world, but their lives are almost completely separate. They overlap a couple of times, they reference each other, but the stories themselves are different paths. So it's very interesting, because you're in the same world, you know the context of the world and the mechanisms and how it works, but you're following these different storylines
Speaker: from three very different main characters. So it's very interesting. Okay, I have to ask. Okay. Are these the stories about cats? Is this the cat thing? You got me, it's warrior cats. Yeah. Oh, it's not warrior cats? No, it's not warrior cats. Oh, cool. Yes. Now you're in, you're tapped back in. I'm back in, I'm back in.
Speaker: I was afraid it was warrior cats. I didn't even have the name warrior cats. You just knew it was cats. I was worried cat. Worried father cat. Worried paw. Okay, so no, we're not talking about that. But we can if you want. No, thank you. Okay, I won't get into it, but I have a lot of thoughts.
Speaker: that I know you do it's like like you predict people's personalities based on their warrior cat clan shit like that it's like a Harry Potter mind boggling Lee stupid and I don't want to talk about that
Speaker: Shut up. We can do that. We can do Warrior Cats and Harry Potter houses. House quiz. House quiz and we can do that and astrology in general, all in one podcast that is not happening right now. Well, I was going to say, I think it would be fun for there to be an episode where I make you take personality quizzes.
Speaker: and we talk about your answers and your results, because I know how much you love personality quizzes. Don't put me in a box! Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well... Anyway... I'm gonna talk about fire some more, because... Excuse me. Are you sure? I... Yes, I am sure, because this morning... Okay, will that be interesting now? Okay. Damn.
Speaker: It's fucking rude. But this morning I was reading this book and I was at like one of the most dramatic points and I was just sitting on my couch. It was like 8 a .m. I was sitting on my couch. I had 30 minutes before I had to start getting ready to leave and I was just sobbing to this fucking book and I was like, how am I supposed to go to like do things now? I'm so emotionally involved in this book and I had to go before I had like 20 pages left and I had to leave.
Speaker: and it was horrible. What? You had to leave 20 pages left? Yes, I had to go. You're sobbing and you had to leave 20 pages? I had to pull myself together and finish my Celsius and go. Okay, but also, how many other times have you read that book? A lot, but not so much recently. I haven't read that before. But it still gets you.
Speaker: It still gets me. And actually, like I said, all of a sudden this book, oh, a kitty? Do we have a visitor? No. Okay. This was the first time that I read this book that I cried at it. Like it's changed. Oh, it was the first? Really? Yes. So you changed and your experience of the book changed.
Speaker: I mean, apparently, because before, with the first book and the last book, the main characters are much more, like the first book, the main character's like this badass fighting warrior. She's very blunt and tough and badass. And when I was in high school, I was like, she's me. I'm a fighter. I'm blunt and I feel like I don't fit in. And I'm just like her. She's just like me.
Speaker: Which, okay, you know, whatever gets you through the day, girl. But now, the main character of Fire is like, she's struggling throughout the whole book about the way that she's perceived on the outside and this pedestal that people put her on versus how scared and sad she is on the inside. And she has this overwhelming feeling throughout the whole book about like, nobody can ever know who I really am.
Speaker: and still love me because they have this perception of who I am when they first meet me that if they knew that I'm not really like that, they're not going to love me anymore. And also like throughout the whole book, she's in a ton of physical pain, like almost always because she just keeps getting injured. I don't know. But the way that the author writes about pain, I relate to
Speaker: A lot. This is really fascinating because it's showing that people can write stories that you appreciate in one setting and then as you grow and evolve, you also appreciate it again. In completely different ways from how you did originally. Yeah, like the idea that it can be a totally different expression
Speaker: of your own experience. Yeah. That means it's probably a pretty fucking good story. It's so good. Yeah. I think everybody, at least I recommend it to almost every woman that I meet who is a reader. I'm like, you have to read these books because I feel like everybody I've recommended them to is like, they're so good. So how many books in that series? Three books in that series? I mean,
Speaker: There were three for a while. Now the author has released two more, but very recently. And I've only read one of the new two. I would say stick to the main three, the original three. Those are solid. And you have how many tattoos? Well, you mean total? Around this series.
Speaker: This series, I only have one, but the author wrote a standalone book and I have a tattoo for that one also. We're gonna give that. It's a two tattoo series, definitely worth reading. As we move forward, I think that the book club is gonna have some kind of a rating system. Oh yeah. These would be... Five pools out of five.
Speaker: I think it would be a two tattoo out of one. Two tattoos out of two. Oh, out of one. Out of one. Like, it's that good. It's like... Oh, it's 200 % good. Yeah. Would you get a tattoo about this book? And I got two. Yes, twice. Yes, twice. Yeah. Have I ever gotten a tattoo about a book? No, but you also haven't gotten any tattoos at all.
Speaker: I know, that's what I'm saying. That's how cool those books are. That's how great those books are. Yeah, that's how cool those books are, yeah. And my biggest tattoo actually is from one of the books, so. And it's fucking badass tattoo. It's pretty. Are you gonna show off your tattoos? There you go. Look at this thing.
Speaker: Look at that! It's so awesome. It's for viewers of the podcast. Yeah, this one is my biggest, but then the other one is this key. That's the other one. The key is pretty cool. Way smaller. Yeah, the key is pretty cool. But yeah, this is my book arm, I guess. We should probably just have a completely separate episode about tattoos.
Speaker: just about tattoos and I can just talk about my tattoos for an hour. And then we'll get, no, I'm just saying that we'll get everybody, the whole family, we'll get the whole family involved and then we'll get mom on. And then that's when we'll decide on what tattoos you guys will get. Ooh, little teaser. Drop that there. Not yet. Not yet. Okay.
Speaker: Okay. So I talked, I gushed about one. And I love it. And I think it's really important. It's a, it is iconic for, um, I think, uh, you, I think that that was a very, for you as a person. And also the, your age, that was a, uh, a pretty popular series, right? Like they're, this is a pretty graceful. Yeah. I think a lot of people are reading it.
Speaker: I disagree. I've met almost nobody that has read it. Like the fan base is very, very small. Sucks. I know it does. That's why I tell everybody about it. Everybody should read it. Yeah. So your mother read it. I read it. Maggie's read it. Pretty fantastic stuff. I made Chase read the first book. It's well written. It's a really good story. Yeah. And it clips, you know,
Speaker: Yeah, no, no, it's easy. Yeah, right. It never drags. It never feels like it's dragging. They all strike a really good balance between like relationships between characters moving forward, as well as the actual plot that they're working towards also developing. So you never feel like you're, you know, lacking one or the other. It's a good tempo. It's good pace. And to your previous point, like the whole idea of women
Speaker: like women authors have a different voice and it's, um, this, this, um, opportunity to present things in an authentic way that doesn't always get amplified out there. And that, that series is one where it doesn't feel like it's
Speaker: as a male reader, it doesn't feel like it's just pounding me, it's just a freaking great story. Yeah, that's what I like. I had somebody ask me once, I don't remember who it was, it might have been one of my brothers, but I don't fully recall. But I recommended a book, I don't remember what it was, but it was by a female author and I remember recommending it to this person.
Speaker: And it was a man and he said, okay, but is it like for girls? And I was like, what the fuck does that mean? And he was like, you know, like a book for girls. Cause like, is it for girls? And I was like, no, like what are you talking about? It's a book. I don't know. It's a fantasy book. Yeah. You should probably read it cause I like it and I'm smart and fuck you. Well, I mean,
Speaker: I get, sure, it's for everybody, I don't know. It doesn't say on the cover for girls only, boys stink and are not allowed. Gosh, now I have to cross off everything on my list. I can't talk about any, well we did, you called out the other one that you knew that was gonna be on my list. Oh, Ender's Game.
Speaker: Well, I have two that I want to talk about. I want to make sure we talk about two different books. But one is the one you called out, Ender's Game. Because you definitely have read it. I have read it from the time I was a wee little boy.
Speaker: And now it's a movie, it is a movie five, six years, whatever years ago. We were so excited about the idea that it was going to be a movie for so many years. It's that kind of an iconic story. It's definitely a male voice, if you want to go from that perspective.
Speaker: I suppose so. But it's a child voice. And it's not so like, again, the way that you were saying, like, it's a female writer, but I don't feel as a man reading it that I'm like, you know, crushed by it. Let the baby in. It's Blair. Is that Blair? I can hear her little, her little meow. So cute. But in the same way that you don't feel that way with my books, like,
Speaker: ender's game I'm not reading it being like fucking men you know like it's I'm just reading it you know just in it right yeah I think because the women characters are just characters like they're not yeah they're just as badass as the male there's no difference yeah exactly and this is what I was saying is like they're just kids they're just kids yes
Speaker: Yeah. They're kids and it's a crazy setup of, you know, like how do kids rise above to become heroes? It's the same style of literature that has existed in American literature, at least for a while. It's gone dystopian before that, but like this is Orson Scott Card, who is a
Speaker: and sci -fi writer. Ender's Game is his most popular book. Lots of what he writes is worth reading. My understanding is that the actual Ender's Game book is used in like training, warfare training,
Speaker: Really? I did not know that. It's the kind of thing that helps instruct people on what it is to be built up as a warrior
Speaker: I don't know how I feel about being used. I was going to say it's not comfortable. It's not comfortable. If you watch the movie, it's not comfortable. The ending of the book is not comfortable. I was going to say you watch the movie and the movie's pretty damn intense, but if you read the book, it's way more in depth and emotionally charged. It's hard to read, honestly.
Speaker: I think people, if you haven't read it, read it. It's not a very long book. It's very approachable language. Like, it's not all high and mighty language. It's a young adult fiction book. But I feel like... It's meant for 13 -year -olds. It's meant... Oh, yikes. It is. I mean, that's how it was written. Really? It's pretty intense. Yeah, it's a YA fiction. That's what it was. That's crazy. Well, I think everybody should read it, especially in the current political and global climate.
Speaker: It'll be a little prescient. Yeah. You might relate to it a little too much, but I think it's good. And if you go to the second and the third books in the series, it gets even worse. Yeah. Even worse. But okay. Interestingly, I was talking to, that's okay. She deserves it. She's beautiful and little, and she has little ears. Oh,
Speaker: That made a terrible noise. Oh my gosh. She was just sliding along the. Okay. She loves this. She's so cute. Um, well I was talking to Maggie today, our so far only guest and my little sister, she was saying, I asked her, I was like, we're recording the podcast tonight. We're talking about books and I would like to know what books you think were like staples in the brew household.
Speaker: And the first thing she said was Ender's Game because she said it was like a rite of passage as a brew child to get the approval from the parents to read it and then join the club of everybody that read it and is obsessed with it. Like now, has Patrick read it? I don't know. Well, he's old enough, so he could. For sure. I think that once the movie came out,
Speaker: The movie became like this emotional purging of that whole experience of the book.
Speaker: What do you mean emotional purging? It was another, this is another completely different topic. It's not a book club topic, right? But it's when they take one of your iconic stories and they put it on a screen, does it make you happy or does it make you sad?
Speaker: Or angry. Or angry, right. And for me, and I think for your mother, we watched that movie and we were like, they did it right. It wasn't the full book, but that movie, they did it right. They actually captured the
Speaker: what that whole experience was, which is, it's like a little. I think the soul of it. Yeah. The soul of the book is. It's dystopian, but then it's aspirational. And then in the end, the kids are the future, but then the kids are abused. Like it's so good. And it, in the end, you know, everyone's broken. Like everyone's broken. Yeah. We suck.
Speaker: does a good job of striking this balance. It's beautiful. I haven't encountered a lot of media that can both be extremely realistic and honest about the state of whatever story they're telling as well as being hopeful. I feel like things either go one way or the other where like, yeah, you're being hopeful about it, but
Speaker: I'm not able to be hopeful because I can see that this isn't a realistic situation that you've set up. This would never happen in real life, but it does work. Which is okay if you're just consuming media, like if you're reading a book for escapism. You don't want to always feel like shit all the time. Exactly. Cool. Like I want to read Jimmy Buffett's stories too, but -
Speaker: Love you, Jimmy. All right. So I had one other one that I wanted to talk about. You have another one that you want to talk about? I mean, I have me first. Okay. Well, I'm 52 minutes in. So I think we have, okay. You, you talk about your other one because I want to talk about book or movie adaptations because I have one that I really want to talk about.
Speaker: Oh shit. Would you, because you want to talk about a book and then the movie adaptation? Okay. Yeah. So I'll just, so I'll just give you, I don't know that you read this one. Okay. What is it? Um, did you ever read the Sparrow? No. Is this the one about aliens? Is it? I don't know. Okay. Probably.
Speaker: Oh, this is the one that the Reese's love, right? Probably more about us than it is about aliens. Oh, wow. It's such a beautifully written story. And it's about it's a like sci -fi. I would classify it as a first contact style story.
Speaker: But it's one of these things where it's very practically written around the idea that when first contact happens, the only entity that is able to act quickly and efficiently is not governments, they're all in a tizzy.
Speaker: It's the Jesuits. It's a religious order. They have the resources. They're like,
Speaker: we're all about learning about shit so let's go and they send a mission off and it's such a beautiful story uh it's not fun at all right okay but it's it's one of i think it
Speaker: It's one of these stories that I didn't even know when it was written, but I think it's one of these stories that's going to stand the test of time around our human ability to accept others and because what it turns into is
Speaker: how fucked up we are and how we, when we even have the best of intentions, we still fuck everything up. So it's, it's a, it's a fantastic story. There's two books in the, like that I've read. Maybe there are more, I don't know, but the, the,
Speaker: main one is The Sparrow. I think this was written in the 80s. 1996 was the original publication. OK, 1990s. Yeah, 1990s. So this is by Mary Doria Russell. Yeah, she's... It's so beautifully written too. It won four different awards.
Speaker: It's so sensitively written. It feels real when you're reading this. We look at the idea of aliens coming down and saying, hey, here we are. We're going to fuck around with you. This is much more of a realistic way that
Speaker: If we learn that there's other intelligence in the universe, that's the way it's going to happen. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Damn. You're selling me on it. I feel like I need to read it now. Do it. Read it. It's incredible. Carolyn sold me on it and I read it and I'm like, I've read it three times now because it's that good. All right. So now yours.
Speaker: Well, I'm making a comment on the books that you've mentioned as ones that are important to you, because it's interesting. The theme that they all have is like, well, at least Ender's Game and the Sparrow seem very similar, but then also it's like in a Venn diagram, Ender's Game and the Sparrow would have one, and then the Sparrow and Lamb would have one. I don't really see a connection between these two, but you know, like,
Speaker: contact with something other than ourselves, the philosophical and moral implications of the way that we behave to other intelligent species that aren't humans, and then also the responsibility that we have to humanity. I feel like all three of those
Speaker: have similar energies. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think you're right. But can I sum it up? Yeah, go ahead. Don't be a dick. And what does that mean? Yeah. What does dickishness mean? What does don't be a dick really mean? In certain circumstances? Yeah. Like, look at Ender's game. What
Speaker: And not to spoil the plot, but the whole moral quandary around that whole system of the whole plot line is how are you the best person? How are you the right person? How are you the good in that moment? Yeah. And also with that book, it's the struggle between doing
Speaker: what you need to do, like following through on the responsibility that you've been given, maybe you need to go against what you wish you could be doing as the morally good person. Like sometimes, not to get all, you know, Nietzsche on you, but sometimes the ends do justify the means. And I stand by that. And that's, which is very much a theme in Ender's Game. Yeah. Right?
Speaker: So what does Don't Be a Dick really look like? Yeah, it changes based on the situation you find yourself in, I think. My stories, my books, that I am passionate about are really dealing with that kind of issue. Lamb, Ender's Game,
Speaker: Like the spare, these are big existential kind of discussions around what are we supposed to be as human beings and what does it mean to be a dick to somebody versus being right and being kind and that's what all of these books are about. And redemption in the end, there's this element of redemption in each one of them
Speaker: Um, that it also feeds me like, ah, fuck yeah, I need redemption. Like I want, I want to, I want to figure it all out. And in the end, get like, I want the Hollywood ending. Like I want, I want to walk out with a bucket of popcorn and go, that was a really good film. But you want to do the breakfast. Wait.
Speaker: Yeah. No, actually that's not a good ending. It's kind of like we're all shitty. Yay. It's a good ending. It's a terrible ending. No, it's a human moment ending. It's a human moment ending. It's a dark ending. Everybody's still shitty at the end of the day. They didn't solve any huge problems because they're high schoolers, but they saw the human in each person that before they had this experience,
Speaker: They didn't see. And it was alert. It's not trying. Okay. This is not what this episode is about. Now we're doing the film episode. We're not going to rant about The Breakfast Club, but. We could though. Let me talk my shit about this movie. You were about to talk about, yeah, I was going to say the film to movie thing.
Speaker: I need to talk about it. This is, I'm sure I believe that the movie is better than the book in other cases as well. I just haven't put much thought into it, but this movie, Little Women by Greta Gerwig, directed by Greta Gerwig. Don't do that. Why would you do that to me? I thought you loved me. Okay. You're being sexist.
Speaker: I gotta do manly things now. You're talking about little women? Good lord. Oh shit, I just broke something. Sorry. That was Instagrammerma. No, go ahead. Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm just being goofy. I read Little Women when I was young, very young. It was like one of the first chapter books that I read. And I reread that book so many damn times.
Speaker: that it was the copy that we had was just like the cover was gone. Trunks of the inside of the pages were just falling out. I loved this book. What attracted you to this book? I want to start there. I don't want you to skip forward. I want you to bring me into this. Let me bring you in. I want to understand it.
Speaker: I so want to understand this. Good Lord. Why are you so judgy? I was not judgy about your choices. No, no, no. It's just because I don't understand. I want to understand. Dad, you could not understand something without judging. I don't want to judge. I don't want to judge. We can work on that. I loved this book so much because it's a story. Oh, fuck off.
Speaker: for our listeners, for our audio -only audience. He just flipped me off. Did I? Is that what you experienced? Bitch. Now he's gaslighting me. Help. Okay, help. It was a book. No, I do actually. It was a book. For all of our listeners, I do actually want to understand how
Speaker: I have never enjoyed Little Women. So I would love to understand because it's clearly important to you. Give me all the ways that this has been impactful for you. When you say never, you read the book but you haven't seen the movie or you've seen the movie? I have not seen the movie. I read the book when I had to. I understand that you wouldn't feel passionate about it from the book then. That's my point. I think the movie is way better than the book. But I reread the book so many times because
Speaker: It's just a book about four sisters living their lives. But the human moments, the way that they're written, I'm a girl with a lot of siblings. And the way that they write the sibling interactions,
Speaker: I was just like, yep, this is so accurate. This is exactly what it's like. Because it's like, I want to kill my sister right now. But I still love her. But I want to rip her hair out. But I love her.
Speaker: growth of the characters also. And I could see different parts of myself in each of the four sisters, which was interesting because I feel like usually I find one character that I'm like, she's me. And I just, that's me. But it was interesting for me to see, and even the mother in Little Women, I was like, I kind of related to. So it was like a character study of all of the characters in the book. Yeah, cool. That at different points I could see myself in.
Speaker: as like a young, weird, homeschooled girl. I love that. That's a great way of describing it. And now I'm in. I'm like, that's cool. And the movie, I think, does a really good job of, I mean, I think Greta Gerwig, everything that she touches becomes gold. She is Midas to me, personally. So this is Barbie lady, right? Yes. Didn't she do Barbie? She did do Barbie.
Speaker: Okay, what else has she done? Oh my gosh, my cat just sneezed. What was that? That was a full human sound. Did you hear that? Yeah, I did. I heard that. I've never heard him make that sound before. That was so weird. That was a human sneeze of some kind. Oh my gosh. Anyway, she didn't... So if you go from little women to Barbie, like, let's not...
Speaker: typecast her, what else has Greta done? Well, that's kind of her typecast though, is like women movies, which I think though she does it very well. Not my job to typecast her. But she does kind of, but she does the, I think so well, like she, she does a good job of doing the, the Yay Woman movies without, um, like,
Speaker: What am I trying to say, deifying women? Yeah, without being cloying and stupid. Yes, you have a vagina and it's beautiful. You know, that John Mulaney, that's it. Yeah. You have a vagina and it's beautiful. You know, like that, I can't stand. Who's that? It's John Mulaney. Oh, I'm also thinking a little bit of Mae Martin. Oh, two really good comedians. Look them up, look them up.
Speaker: But with little women, I think the way that she does it is she takes the timeline and she fucks with it. So you get flashbacks and flash forwards. So you get like, here's what's happening in present day. And then they flash back to like their childhoods and like the way that the lighting is different, the same actresses, by the way, for the sisters for both timelines, but the way that they act
Speaker: when they're in the present day versus when they're supposed to be like 12. They're so good. Florence Pugh is in it. Emma Watson, who played Hermione in Harry Potter, is in it. They're stars. Timothy Chalamet is in it. Well, he's kind of in. No, he's a star. He won't good. I know he won't good, and that's kind of like a won't go. No, he won't. Won't go.
Speaker: He's doomed twice now. Yeah. And no one wants to see that second one. No, people will. Zenday is in it also. Well, she's great. She's so pretty. Okay. We're not talking about movies right now. I want to talk about one last thing. I want to talk about one last thing. I love how you represented little women and brought that
Speaker: I mean, it's a classic story. And you shared how it's represented in the actual book. And then in the movie with Greta, that's cool. I now want to watch that movie. Yeah, you should. But watch it with me, though. Yeah, I got a couple that I got to watch with you. They're Greta movies, apparently. Oh, yeah. I forgot. You still haven't seen Barbie. Yeah, we got to do that.
Speaker: I want to bring up one more thing. It's very much a man story, a man book. It's the King Killer Chronicles. It's Patrick Rothfuss who has written this incredible story that I, again, to the point of like, what books do you read over and over and over again?
Speaker: I will read The Name of the Wind every two or three years because I think it's a beautiful, beautiful book. And there are two books in the series, officially in the series right now, of a trilogy. And this... This is ongoing.
Speaker: This motherfucker started writing these books in 2010. I thought I'm going to look it up. I'm going to look it up right now. And he still, he hasn't put out the third one yet. Patrick. Patrick. What the fuck are you doing? Name of the way. Get writing, bitch. 2007.
Speaker: Okay, so now, so 2007, the second book, The Wise Man's Fear was 2011. Okay, so he was going to clip in. Yeah, that was fine. Third book is still not out. Dude, the third book is still not out. No soup for you, bitches. Nothing. He's like the guy that's writing the Game of Thrones books. What's that guy's name?
Speaker: He kind of is. And I'm going to show you a picture of him. And yeah, he is. Oh my fucking God. Yeah. Everybody looked this guy up right now. He looks hilarious. Patrick. Why is he not publishing the third one? He's published little side stories about side characters, little tiny stories.
Speaker: He's so afraid of finishing the story. Yeah, he doesn't know how to be done with it. It drives me nuts. But the story itself is so epic and beautiful. Just bring us home, bro. So can I read you? I want to read you. This is the thing that I love. What sold you on it? This is the beginning. I've got to like,
Speaker: Figured out like look at the beginning like the very beginning of the first part of the first story. Okay, cool You get there, okay, I'll fill the silence I'll fill the silence So ready
Speaker: You know, what's up with airplane food? Okay. Yeah, you go. They don't serve it anymore. That's what's up with it. All right. So this is the prologue of the name of the wind from Patrick Rothfuss and fucking finish the story, dude. Anyway, a silence of three parts. It was night again.
Speaker: The way stone in lay in silence and it was a silence of three parts. The most obvious part was a hollow echoing quiet made by things that were lacking. If there had been a wind, it would have sighed through the trees, set the inside creaking on its hooks and brushed the silence down the road like trailing autumn leaves. If there had been a crowd,
Speaker: Even a handful of men inside the end. They would have filled the silence with conversation and laughter. The clatter and clamor one expects from a drinking house during the dark hours of night. If there had been music, but no, of course there was no music. In fact, there were none of these things. And so the silence remained. Inside the waystone, a pair of men huddled at one corner of the bar.
Speaker: They drank with quiet determination, avoiding serious discussions of troubling news. In doing this, they added a small sullen silence to the larger hollow one. It made an alloy of sorts of counterpart. The third silence was not an easy thing to notice. If you listened for an hour,
Speaker: You might begin to feel it in the wooden floor underfoot and in this rough splintering barrels behind the bar. It was in the weight of the black stone hearth that held the heat of a long dead fire. It was in the slow back and forth of a white linen cloth rubbing along the grain of the bar. And it was in the hands of the man who stood there polishing a stretch of mahogany that already gleamed in the lamplight.
Speaker: The man had true red hair, red as flame, his eyes were dark and distant. And he moved with the subtle certainty that comes from knowing many things. The waystone was his just as the third silence was his. This was appropriate as it was the greatest silence of the three, wrapping the others inside itself. It was the deep and wide as autumn's ending
Speaker: It was heavy as a great river smooth stone. It was the patient cut flower sound of a man who was waiting to die. Holy shit. That's the opening of the fucking story. I might need to read this one too. Shit dude. He just like set this whole thing up and was like,
Speaker: putting the whole thing in your head, like, oh, yeah, it's just like, and then wham. Oh, shit. Waiting. So it was happening. But now I'm like desperate to read the next piece. Uh -huh. Go read it. Holy shit. Okay. I might need to. So that's the name of the wind. That's beautiful. Patrick Roth has that. I think that's one of the most gorgeous openings of a novel I've ever read.
Speaker: And I didn't do it justice, obviously. I think he did. Everybody read that and then tweet Patrick Rothfuss and tell him to get his ass in the typing chair. They've been doing that since 2013 and he's just been like, bitch, I'm making money. I don't care. Finish your damn series.
Speaker: Yeah. Anyway. He even has a name for the last... He knows the name, but he doesn't know how it's gonna end. Wow. Okay, King. Anyway. Anyway. We are... Far over art. Long in the tooth. Long in the tooth. Maybe just you. Gotcha, bitch. Yeah, no, I'm old. Boom roast. Thanks. At least we didn't... We only lost six minutes.
Speaker: I was shocked. There were a couple of points where you're... I know it got shaky, didn't it? Your audio froze and your video froze and I got very nervous. Same. Basil wants to podcast. Hey, boy! Everybody say hi to Basil and tell him happy second birthday. Hi, Basil. Happy birthday. Happy second birthday. Look how shiny he is. He's gorgeous. He's like a river otter cat.
Speaker: He is, good boy. Hi, Basil. He's just all up in the video. We're gonna wrap it up. This is gonna be the end of episode six of The Shallow End. Do you have anything that you'd like to give to our loyal, like the 12 or 15 loyal listeners we have? What, you mean just for next?
Speaker: What would I like to say? Like, yeah, what would you like to say? How do you want to wrap it up? Well, we have to decide what we're going to talk about next time. Oh, shit. See? Go ahead. Go. Let me pull up my list. Hang on. Oh, one second. You talk while I look. I did figure out with my conversation with our good friend Matt Baxter.
Speaker: Oh, our bestie? When he comes on, there will be no topic. Oh, he just wants to bullshit? We're just going to shoot the shit. I don't know how I feel about that. It might be a three hour episode. I don't think anybody's going to want to listen to that. I don't care. It'll be fun as hell. Okay. Maybe we'll do that eventually. Um, okay. Ooh.
Speaker: Well, do you do I was looking at our solved that special which made me excited but also Yeah, I changed my mind pretty quickly We got some feedback on our list of topics over St. Patrick's Day weekend and there were a couple of them that are person giving us feedback who shall not be named due to
Speaker: Confidentiality like I mean all the contracts everything. Yeah He starred a couple of things. So I'll read to you the things that he starred and you choose from those. Okay? Okay conspiracy theories musicals Zombie apocalypse we're definitely doing conspiracy theories next Yeah, no, it's already that this
Speaker: It's definitely that. It's definitely conspiracy theories. Okay, we'll do conspiracy theories. This is going to be so fun. Are we doing general discussion of them or the specific ones that we ourselves believe in? It's not about what we believe in. No one believes in conspiracy theories. It's just whatever you're lit about right now. There's an ongoing conspiracy theory that Kate Middleton is dead.
Speaker: And there you go. There you go. We can dive into that. You get to bring that. I get to bring who really took down the bridge in Baltimore. We're going to have fun. It's going to be a good time. Let's do conspiracy theories. Tune in next time. I won't say next week because who knows if it'll be in a week. Who knows? But tune in next time for conspiracy theories when we will talk more bullshit. Yeah.
Speaker: based on no information or knowledge. Because that's what the shallow end is. That's what the shallow end is. Oh. Holy shit. That was so loud. Stop. That hurt. Yeah. I feel complete. Do you feel complete? Do I? No, I'm wet. What? Stop it. Somebody take these buttons away from me. This is horrible. All right. Thank you, shallow friends, for joining us. I feel like we've done enough. Yes.
Speaker: We've done more than enough. We'll be back when we're back. When we're back. Keep an eye out. Also, we love you. Peace out. Okay, bye. Bye.
