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Episode 18 - Affirmation Culture & The Brogan-verse
30 Plays6 months ago
This week we have a bit of a longer episode for our Shallow Frenz (we just had so much to say). Discussions include: the state of modern female friendships, support vs affirmation, and the effect Joe Rogan had on Austin. We hope you enjoy!
Articles:
https://www.thecut.com/article/brooding-how-affirmation-culture-affects-friendships.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/10/joe-rogan-austin-comedy-club/679568/
Recommended
Transcript
Excitement of In-Person Recording
00:00:13
Speaker
Hi, Rebecca. Hi, Dad. And hello to our shallow friends. Welcome to Episode 18. Eighteen. Eighteen of the shallow end. And we've got a banger for you today. We've got a banger because the energy in the studio is high because we're in the same location. Yes, it's ah it's ah an in-person episode. It's always exciting when we have in-person episodes. It feels easier and more natural.
00:00:43
Speaker
And there's only one audio file. as you so There's only one audio file for me to quote unquote edit. Yeah. But I did tell you I'm going to have some musical drops for you on this one. Are you actually? I thought that was a joke. I don't know if I know how to do that. I don't know. We used to have that little ah sound addition thing, but that was when we were recording on a different platform. So that's not going to work. Randomly break and delete our entire recordings out of nowhere. OK, PTSD. You got to do a trigger warning before you
New Podcast Format Discussion
00:01:16
Speaker
start. trigger warning
00:01:18
Speaker
Well, this is week two of our new format. Yeah. How are we feeling? Oh, no, week three. ah Week. Is it? Yeah. Week three. Because we did. We did two. Science. Oh, yeah, we did. Big science one that we did last week and now this week.
00:01:36
Speaker
What would you call this one? now We didn't plan this. We didn't. But mom said, it sounds like you have one article about men and one article about women. And I was like, well, yeah I mean, I guess. Sorry, non-binary friends. Yeah, you guys don't get to participate. You might just have to turn this episode off. Well, it's going to get a little.
Joe Rogan's Cultural Impact
00:02:00
Speaker
We challenge yeah, this one you chose one that particularly it's gonna be I'm finally gonna get you to talk about Rogan to We're gonna do the that yeah, we're gonna address the Rogan in the room the the Rogan in the room or the Brogan verse or you know, however you want to talk about it moment he's called the Male Oprah or the white? open hey don't or so let's we get our we're we're getting ahead of our so We are and then you I was very appreciative of the fact that you picked ah Probably the shortest yeah article ever short little baby article. Yeah, and yours is long mine is long So we even each other out I guess
00:02:43
Speaker
yeah i made you read 10 pages of broken yeah you made me read 10 pages all about joe roken i had to split it up into multiple different installments of reading this thing because even though the author is quite scathing so it's not like i'm reading like a worship letter to to broken no i would never have done that no you wouldn't have but still ah there were multiple times where I was like I can't keep thinking about this man. I just had to turn my iPad off and go do something else. I just needed like a refresher every now and then. Okay well just remember this is all for funsies. No I had so much fun.
00:03:26
Speaker
No, it's a good article. It's funny. I thought it was a good article. I was oh reading it again this morning while I was studying with my friend and I kept going.
00:03:39
Speaker
And he kept looking up and going, you have to stop doing that because every time you do it, it makes me want to ask what you're laughing at. And I really have to get this done. And I couldn't stop because it kept making me laugh. Good. So it's funny. That's sort of my experience listening to Joe Rogan.
00:03:53
Speaker
and okay but's We're not starting with that one. We're not starting with that one, even though we seem to really want to talk about it. Yeah, we're really on topic here.
Affirmation Culture and Friendship
00:04:04
Speaker
why don't you you want me to introduce mine yeah give it give it to us so mine is an article from the cut it's called is affirmation culture sabotaging our friendships and ourselves and it it's a surprise like i said it's a surprisingly short article because it just says yes period is yeah and then it's over there's a little bit of discussion i mostly chose it because i thought that
00:04:31
Speaker
It's not so much like a plethora of material to discuss, but it's more so like a, I thought it would be an interesting jumping off point. Yeah. and i like further I was absolutely thinking the same thing, but first I need you to answer one question. Okay. What is the cut? It's a magazine, I think. I've never heard of it. I have, but I think it's, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm not hip.
00:04:56
Speaker
I think that could very well be. did um I didn't say that sarcastically. i Honestly, I probably have not the target for anything called The Cut. I mean, it's... The author, this is her description, a columnist for The Cut covering modern family life. So yeah, I wouldn't expect you to be reading this kind of stuff.
00:05:17
Speaker
but because my family life is very ancient. It's an antique mo family life. ti film Wow. All right. Well now, hey, remember, it's almost my bedtime, so... we We're getting started late tonight. 8 45. Dang. Holy cow. My brain stops working at 8 48. So let's hurry up. Okay, we got four minutes. look i Can do that math and it's three minutes 845 to 840 technically 844. I just rounded up Okay, I can't keep up with you with my little young mind Okay, I would love Your opinion on This very short little article what well things jumped out at you. Yeah, um I Will just say
00:06:08
Speaker
um Even though it is short, it um it really did boil down to, um it was probably twice as long as it needed to be. I agree. Because um it seems, it starts to get kind of self-indulgent. And i don't I don't like that. I also don't like the, and I'm gonna make some assumptions here. I don't like the mentality of relatively upper-class and white moms
00:06:40
Speaker
Going into martyr syndrome. Okay, and that's what I get I get a real meat healthy dose of that in this article that it's like It's honey. You need to although Honestly, okay. I I didn't really get that so much from the author herself But no, she's trying to cut almost not really directly but calling out a symptom of that. Yeah mentality and So like the the the overall theme thesis of this article is basically we're doing a disservice to our platonic relationships by constantly affirming people regardless of their behavior. Yes. And always supporting the choices that they make, even if the choice that they're making is self-destructive, which is not love. no yeah yeah So I really enjoyed that perspective because I find myself frustrated by it.
00:07:34
Speaker
that expectation, often. And she writes, or yeah, later on in the article, she says, um we will do anything to avoid seeming mean, even going so far as to validate each other's self-sabotage. And I at least have struggled a lot with like,
00:08:02
Speaker
The way that I see being a friend is calling that stuff out when you see right behaviors near the people that you love. But the response that I've gotten from people who don't know me very well is always like, gosh, you're so harsh. Why are you being so mean? I'm like, I'm not being mean. I just don't agree with you.
00:08:24
Speaker
um There was one little line that she used that I highlighted that's kind of related to that. okay And I wanted her to to to explore more. She just says, I wonder what we lose when we stick to validation instead of risking the consequences of directness when it comes to our close friends.
00:08:44
Speaker
And I'm like, well, girlfriend, wonder a little more. Wonder out loud in this article that you're writing. Yeah, wonder out loud. Give me some of that. Give me some of that. Like, what do you lose? What do you think you lose when people just, as she says, effusively nod? Oh, yeah.
00:08:59
Speaker
so i yeah i would just like I wish it was there was more explanation of that. and like we're Where do you think it fails the relationships when you're not yeah um tackling things directly and head on? I think that you know you obviously have that attitude. Your mother certainly has that attitude. She surrounds herself with women who support her who understand that that idea of you support someone by wanting the best for them. and that includes
00:09:30
Speaker
pushing back on them sometimes not be offering to bury the body when you know that that person's a ps psychoric killer
00:09:40
Speaker
exactly yeah i also thought Like she calls out very briefly, which this was another thing where I read it and I was like, Oh, I'd love to hear you talk more a little bit about that. She says, there's a cautiousness innate in the way we seem to approach the self these days. Be careful with me. We demand. And it's like, that is true.
00:10:03
Speaker
it's
00:10:06
Speaker
It's the like individualism. oh Americans combined with the like mental health quote-unquote wokeness has just created this glob of self
Pandemic's Effect on Social Interactions
00:10:20
Speaker
obsession. Right. That is so infuriating.
00:10:24
Speaker
in Every room with more than one person and it needs to be covered in pillows, so no one gets hurt. I do think that this ties in really well to your article from last week. that I think that it's really accelerated post-pandemic or during the pandemic and has stuck around post-pandemic. I think people are just so dancing like just dancing around yes the the idea of directness or yeah dancing around. I would never say anything to hurt you. or yeah you know i'm only here to support you that kind of stuff i don't know yeah i also did not enjoy the stuff that she brought up about this book yeah that felt unnecessary so she's she talks about this book called liars which um
00:11:12
Speaker
um I'm certainly never gonna read. Nope. Sounds awful. Sounds really really miserable. yeah I don't know what type of person enjoys stories about ah a woman who's in a 15 year long unhappy marriage and The book ends with her being cheated on and divorced. Yeah great right This is one of those things like real life is hard enough. Why would I put that in my brain? It's not helpful. I already know that happens. Yeah, I'm not learning anything Yeah, she spent a lot of time like rehashing yeah it's this book. i this I did like that she but she brings up the reviewers. I i like that too. Like the book it's the book edition didn't feel necessary. It did feel a little bit of like wasted space in the article, but she does have this line
00:12:06
Speaker
where she's talking about like this unspoken rule yeah of womanhood, yeah um where she says, a woman who is the aggrieved party in a relationship with a man is entitled to affirmation from other women. Women in this situation are considered categorically blameless because women are categorically blamed for so much.
00:12:26
Speaker
And i it's good because I highlighted the exact same sentence and then I bracketed the last part and I said, they are? I feel like they're we've we've turned having a uterus into like being a hero. Interesting. That's an interesting perspective. I think it... See, this is a difficult thing because I would agree that the...
00:12:57
Speaker
performative culture has swapped where it's like, yay, women. Who rules the world? Girls. I'll drop that. See, I told you I was gonna have a musical drop. But the actual like reality of living as a woman in day-to-day life,
00:13:21
Speaker
does feel a lot like everything is oh really okay so so i want to just ah but okay Let me clean up some of those remarks. Okay. You're good getting into the spin room? Yeah. No, I'm not saying that the experience of being a woman in 2024 is smooth sailing and easy. What I'm saying is I don't have a perception that all the ills of the world are blamed on women. In fact, it's the opposite. Most of the ills of the world are blamed on men.
00:13:59
Speaker
and For good reason. One might say. Who's rule the world for who's the one doing all this stuff? I guess I'm just saying that it that seemed like an unnecessary dunk and it and it doesn't ring true. You could have said something else there that probably would have proved like like grounded the point better. Okay, so I didn't read that as her Stating it as her actual opinion. I think I thought Oh she was framing this is like this is the rule that we live by I got it. Okay, the the mindset is I didn't women are blameless in this situation No matter what because they're blamed for everything else
00:14:43
Speaker
But the rule can't be universal. the That's how I read it. and She was like... Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, she's sort of just setting the premise there. Because then she goes in and she's like, she talks about her own like little group chat with moms yeah where they have a joke that if anyone would have ever admitted to murdering someone, they'd all immediately support her and go, babe.
00:15:06
Speaker
You had no choice. So it's like she's poking fun at herself. Right, right. So I read it. It's not like a genuine thought and belief ah from her, but I accept that correction. I think I was being a little, although a little sensitive. They are. Question mark, question mark, question mark as
Generational Technology Gap
00:15:22
Speaker
a note is pretty funny.
00:15:25
Speaker
it Yeah. But um she she does bring up the unspoken rule after like running over this book and the review and stuff And she has this thing that she says that I thought was really funny and I related to a lot. She says, I've often felt that by insisting that women are in the right when we're dealing with men, we're denying ourselves the privilege of being the asshole. I love this. I love that too. This is really smart. And it's it in it really is, it kind of speaks to what you were talking about, about like the experience of being a woman. Like in social settings, especially mixed social settings, women have to be perfect. Yes.
00:16:07
Speaker
there because they they feel that they are judged all the time probably by both men and women yes and so i did like that it's a really smart little commentary like sometimes just be the asshole it's and be okay with it she follows that up the line immediately after is this seems unfair almost a denial of part of our own humanity and i love that because like as a woman who interacts with femininity i think in a
00:16:36
Speaker
not a non-traditional sense, but not like a dynamic way, a multi-layered multilayered way yeah sure I have struggled
Affirmation vs. Support
00:16:45
Speaker
with like the fear of being perceived as masculine because of the way that I carry myself in social interactions, because I'm not really afraid of being perceived as the asshole.
00:16:56
Speaker
I was going to say, because you scare the shit out of people. And the idea of her calling that out as being like, when we say that women aren't allowed to be the asshole, that's denying them part of being human, part of what makes us human. We're cleaning up and polishing and beautifying the appearance of even personality of women and that's dehumanizing. and I thought that was and i thought it was a very interesting point. just a really good point um I want to just show you okay the exact same line is highlighted.
00:17:36
Speaker
We can do that because we're in person. So I just showed her Okay, this is ah another little in case we needed to remember the cult them the the generational difference here I printed out both articles and used a highlighter and a pen and ah Rebecca has her iPad and is doing all kinds of tech stuff that I i i i Don't know And I used my pen function and my highlighter function. So, same. It's the same, yeah okay but mine saves trees.
00:18:17
Speaker
um All right. I learned. I did learn that there's a thing. There's a website, I guess, called Chump Nation. I definitely don't ever want to have to look at. Yeah. um You guys listening, you can you can pull that up and actually don't know if that's. Yeah, yeah I don't know either. But it's just search Chump Nation and be prepared for the algorithmic consequences.
00:18:45
Speaker
um OK. What is Trump Nation? Explain it. It's an online community for people who have suffered from infidelity in their marriage. Yes. Oh, I just reread this again, that they see infidelity as a form of abuse. Well, that's not that far off, I don't think. I would probably agree with that.
00:19:11
Speaker
yeah and and like intentional I mean, we talk about emotional abuse. Yeah, it's definitely that it's it's an abuse against the kind like a contract you've agreed to true, right? I mean you breach of contract call it So it's an abuse of the other party I think of trust. Yes and for sure Yeah, well she
00:19:35
Speaker
She talks about Trump Nation so briefly. I don't even know why she brings it up, honestly. it was it I think it was mentioned in that reviewer, the reviewer writing about liars.
00:19:50
Speaker
i want to just I had to read this, so I want everybody else to hear this paragraph. I'm going to read a paragraph. And I'm going to read it as neutrally as I can.
00:20:03
Speaker
And then I'm going to try not to just do old man yelling at clouds. Several times over the course of Liars, the book, the protagonist Jane remarks that all the other married women she knows are just as miserable as she is. It must be marriage itself that's the problem she reasons, not her marriage.
00:20:24
Speaker
Her woman friends seem more willing to commiserate with her than to propose alternatives, which as a circumstance author knows well. This allows her to feel less alone and also to stay miserable. The only person in Liars who strays from the affirmation script is Jane's neighbor who surprises her by asking, why do you stay with him? This character is a man.
00:20:48
Speaker
And I'm like, is this just a story like a a women can't get out of their own way kind of story? Why would you even look, you should have this strong female friend be the one that goes girlfriend, get out hey and you should probably have one character that has a wonderful marriage just to provide contrast. so weird Anyway, I don't know why we're, again, diving so deep into a book review when her premise is actually worthy of discussion. but I thought so too, but then I thought maybe, like, it kind of felt like she ran out of gas. Like, she was like, damn. I need 400 more words. I said all of the stuff I meant to say, yeah, and I haven't hit my word limit yet. I guess I'll talk about this book for forever. But there's that line, a line in that paragraph.
00:21:40
Speaker
That I highlighted I wonder if you highlighted it this allows her to feel less alone and also to stay miserable Yeah, well, I just highlighted the whole paragraph. I just put um, okay Okay,
00:21:53
Speaker
okay if you really think marriage is that bad then get out of it then don't do it weird but anyway this allows the person to feel less alone and also to stay miserable i think is like such a perfect like amalgamation of my frustration with the way that like i don't want to like make it whatever female friendship at least seems to be expected. Yeah, know right. That's how I'm expected to behave. If I want to make female friendships, and I'm like, but that's not friendship. No, it's not. It's very one dimensional, right? Yeah, I don't feel like I'm allowing you to be a full person. If I'm not allowing myself to acknowledge that you can have flaws, and make mistakes, and I'm allowed to say, Hey, friend, you done fucked up, right?
00:22:52
Speaker
And let's talk about it yeah but I And I want to help you walk through this and fix it. So I want um i think that there's some ah an interesting paragraph here where she the author of this article actually makes this somewhat personal again, instead of just talking about book reviews. Oh, yes. And i I really liked it because it puts some of this into like historical context. And how did we get here? like Where did it evolve from? That that all you know female friendships seem to have this expectation that doesn't necessarily serve the interests of the women involved? Not necessarily a net benefit.
00:23:35
Speaker
um So I was wondering what you thought about as she talks about her mother's experience. Yeah, so she talks about how she found this box of letters that her mother had written to her father in the 1970s. And her mother's talking about these groups that she went to, weekly groups, where women married mothers usually, gathered together and tried to... the way she says it is, they hashed out their identities and futures outside the constraints of marriage and wifehood. Which I had never heard of. I haven't either. Yeah, no, I mean I think that this is like something that would be really interesting to learn about in some kind of like feminist history class in college. But but she only gives it a paragraph, but she
00:24:21
Speaker
I thought it was an interesting bit of information to drop in there. Like you said, to see like where where did this come from, and it came from women who felt alone.
00:24:36
Speaker
coming together and trying to have a life outside of the men, right, that they were married to. And that just, like, the frustration that I have is most because I don't think it comes from like a bad place at all. It comes from a place of women being like, okay, the men don't seem to really give a shit. So we've got to support each other, right I guess. And it just, but it just kind of was taken too far.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, well sure, I think that the the reason I enjoyed this that paragraph and that personal anecdote from her was that it kind of talks about the more the more productive and the more positive way that women can support each other. And so when she's talking about these letters and the way that her mom went through life and she but you know She puts a she puts a like second wave of feminism. you know I'm not an expert in, like I said, feminist history, but the the idea that women were coming together to address this anxiety around if I get married and have children, does that just make me my mother from the 50s? And they had gone through you know hippie culture and
00:26:00
Speaker
you know Awesome we've now got a constitutional right to vote kind of not really but but we're accepted as full citizens and you know there's what's the next stage and how do we support each other in these decisions because we feel we have more agency we're not just cultural you know sort of fillers for the men yeah. oh and and i The last sentence in that paragraph when she's reflecting on this is that these women demanded a lot of each other and I suspect it's because they felt they had no choice. That's true support.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yes, that's what I was going to say. The difference is, she also talks about her mother describing the sessions as sometimes very difficult. There were many arguments and disagreements. They were working it out. That's different. They're arguing and disagreeing with each other. Babe, you had no choice. Yes. That's where i i I'm like, that, that I would love. Yes. I would love that. 100%. I think that's what So she does is if eventually get to this stage where she's showing this this alternative way that women probably like this should get. Like the same like concept, like women gathering to support each other.
00:27:19
Speaker
but without this like blind loyalty, right ignorance of fault. Well, you you just said one of the things that I you know wrote as a note at the end of this article after I was finished, completely finished. You said, women gathering to support each other. And I wrote affirmation versus support, o which is really the primary need. Yes. Just, is it,
00:27:47
Speaker
is the Is the primary need effusive nodding and saying yes, you're right all the time? Or is the primary need, I need to feel supported? Yes. And um i just i wrote I wrote this, the greatest affirmation should be the one that encouraged someone towards their best self.
00:28:06
Speaker
so that's what it sounded like that 1970s group that her mom was doing yeah was that's what they were trying to and even it sound it sounds less like um like one friend sitting another one down and being like babe you gotta fix your shit and more like My life is a mess. Your life is a mess. Let's figure it out. Let's talk about it. yeah Together in in the rebuild. Hey, let's make a podcast about it. Oh my gosh. We're just like the feminists of the 1970s. I bet there was wine involved in that.
00:28:48
Speaker
But she does finish. I giggled ah at the final line. Yeah. Well, you I highlighted it. I did. You giggled at it. I giggled at it. She revisits our main character from the book that she spent to have the article talking about. And she says, if I had been friends with the main character Jane, I'd like to think I would have invited her to imagine a new life for herself. But I can't be sure. I sure would hate for her to feel unsupported.
00:29:17
Speaker
So I highlighted that as well. And then I wrote, whoa, whoa. Like wolf is I thought you were working yourself up into having a spine and then you just went like a yeah balloon losing air.
00:29:32
Speaker
oh Yeah, so, I mean, i I think you were right in picking this that it's a great launching off point to talk about um some of these issues. And I think that it doesn't just, this sort of stuff doesn't just happen in women's social interactions. yeah It very much is a terrible disease in parenting right now. o yeah It's a terrible way to raise children to just say, oh Little Johnny, you're right. I'm so sorry you had a bad day Sometimes you need to tell your little kid shut the fuck up and get your homework done. Maybe we don't swear at the child, but Little Johnny's heard it before Yeah, it's called gentle parenting
00:30:19
Speaker
That's what they call not parenting. Yeah, I used to be like unparenting. We're just gonna let our kid run wild. It's when the the goal of parenting is to be friends with your child rather than to parent your child. And you know what? The child then becomes an adult who doesn't not handle conflict and never hears the word no. And they're always the word. So entitled, so awful.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah, she does start the article talking about motherhood. She never revisits it, though. She really does not wrap back around. No, it's on it again no. Yeah. And I just kind of breezed past it because I have no experience in that. So maybe I didn't want to talk about it. Yeah, maybe.
00:31:03
Speaker
Maybe, you know. No, I was going to say, I think you do have a little bit of experience as the oldest daughter. You were the little mother in the house. I guess, yeah. But this this house was not one of affirmation parenting. No.
00:31:22
Speaker
Not in a negative way. but
00:31:29
Speaker
Certainly not when you were young. I think it has gotten more and more that way. I guess, yeah. yeah Maybe not intentionally. Not intentionally. I agree. Not intentionally. Yeah. Well. All right. That was our first article. I'm going to do a ah ah pause. Okay. A quick break and, you know, for our ads. For for for our ad reads.
00:31:56
Speaker
let's go to the money so
00:31:59
Speaker
good go for a ride so
00:32:06
Speaker
And we're back and we're back how do we like those ads I had to I had to okay, I'm going to Go to the confessional here. Okay and say the only reason I said we need to take a break because you know Yeah, it's because that's a semi-regular thing in Rogan podcasts Because because they're three hours long fool and he Eventually has to like take his tiny bladder and go and relieve it. Yeah, and probably take a hit No, he does that right always on the podcast We should change the format kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding Do a little Elon Do you want to introduce? you Yeah, sure. So yes yeah, so obviously we've already Revealed that this article is about Joe Rogan um Jogan to his friends the or the Brogan
00:33:01
Speaker
Or the Brogan. The article is entitled, How Joe Rogan Remade Austin. And this was written by Helen Lewis. I think this was from the Atlantic. I don't to remember. But it's brand new. It was it was published September 11th and we're recording on the 13th. 14th. September 11th, always remember. Always remember.
00:33:25
Speaker
um And this is a longer form article oh yeah yeah
Joe Rogan's Influence on Austin
00:33:31
Speaker
i'm need their glass of wine um And I'm just gonna um cut to the chase the reason I Appreciated it is that this I think that this author encapsulates The the Joe Rogan phenomena. Yeah against the backdrop of what is going on in our culture and in our political culture, in our, again, post-pandemic culture. cultures um And I think she does a really nice job of it. So you said she's scathing. I don't even think she's scathing. I think she's very fair. I think she's scathing, but universally.
00:34:12
Speaker
Okay, okay. She writes um with a similar attitude about Brogan and his buds as she does about like Typical liberals like it's okay. Yeah. Yeah vibe that she's writing with but it is all very judging Well, but I think it's fair judge. I like it. She makes me She's got a really good ah Grounded perspective on a lot of yeah, I agree. I away with anything, but she also doesn't you know steal his accomplishments from him. That's true, yes.
00:34:47
Speaker
yeah so um yeah so Let's go through this. should we start just um yeah so The article starts by describing how yeah the author is in Austin on a Tuesday night and she goes to Joe Rogan's comedy club.
00:35:08
Speaker
And she describes the silliness that's going on. Would you like to read the opening sentence actually out to our sure sure audience? Because ah it it's really a slap in the face to start this article. at least I think I'm gonna read both both the first two sentences.
00:35:24
Speaker
It's a Tuesday night in downtown Austin and Joe Rogan is pretending to jerk off right in front of my face. The strangest thing about this situation is that millions of straight American men would kill to switch places with me.
00:35:41
Speaker
It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Now, the reason she's at the she's at the comedy mothership watching Joe Rogan's comedy show. It's because he wouldn't do an interview. It's because he doesn't do interviews. And she says later on, he's like he's the last person on the planet that needs more publicity. Yeah, he famously does not.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah so he doesn't do he doesn't do interviews but she based she she she says that by the end of the you know the opening of this comedy show, ah
00:36:13
Speaker
she's she has this impression that this she's she's trying to be convinced that you're about to see some really forbidden shit and then she just says, you are not.
00:36:28
Speaker
ah paragraph break and then it's so good and the next one begins with you are not it's really funny it's so funny she goes what you will see is four comedians plus Rogan himself with routines that might shock the Amish the over 80s set college students Vox staffers or John Oliver superfans I love it it's it's so like
00:36:57
Speaker
She just sees right into so the bullshit yeah immediately. I love it. It's really funny because you're thinking about how she's equally rough on the on the liberal side. She says of the many recent failures of the American left, one of the greatest is making entry-level battle of the sexes humor seem avant-garde.
00:37:18
Speaker
It's like edgy now. Bitches be crazy. really I love it. um so Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But she, I highlighted this part where she's talking about.
00:37:34
Speaker
how his routine that he's performing, the jerking off and everything, um but also the rest of it. She says, the routine captures the essence of the Joe Rogan brand. He has body around his front fans, respectful of his wife, loyal to his friends, and indulgent with his golden retriever.
00:37:52
Speaker
And then, I mean, she's dunking on us. His Golden Retriever has 900,000 followers on Instagram. Just raking in the cash. We can't even get dynamic ad insertion. Okay, all right. Anyway. But I have found that interesting because it is... Ignore the Golden Retriever part, but the other three, body around his fans, respectful of his wife, loyal to his friends. Yeah.
00:38:23
Speaker
I feel like that's a very good explanation of the surface level version of Rogan. And also, even though it's not inherently a criticism, it is like part of the struggle that I have with Rogan. Like, he is respectful of his wife.
00:38:47
Speaker
but like not of many other women. It's just her. And he is body around his fans because they're like his in group. And he's loyal to his friends, but a lot of his friends are not great people. And when you're being loyal to your friends, when they're doing bad stuff, reference our last article. It's not the greatest. It's not the greatest. So it's like, she's like, he has these positives.
00:39:15
Speaker
So we can't say he's a bad dude, but we can say that some of his actions have resulted in bad things. So we can't say like he's wholly a good influence. Sure. Oh, yeah. No, no. And I think we'll get it more into um and it's kind of what I wanted to take out of this article is more into What is his influence and does he really wield it with responsibility? Exactly. So, but I would push back a little bit because I've never heard him be disrespectful towards any women that he's had on or anything like that. Oh, that he's had on. Yeah, I don't think so. Okay, but he does surround himself with people that
00:40:01
Speaker
um One through line is that they're they're pretty horrible about women and if all of your friends are that way Okay right well i haven't Like I said, I i haven't seen that. I'll be looking for it now. You don't interact with the the Jogan manosphere yeah outside of that's true i listening to the podcast. like you don't like I don't listen to any of the other podcasts for all the guys that he's got on yet. I do know that his you know body around his fans, ah he his comedian crew is just a bunch of dumb men.
00:40:39
Speaker
I mean, that's their shtick. Some of them, I think probably all of them are fairly smart, but they found their little, they they found their moment in comedy. And he does, like, yeah the author of this, she does get into some of the people yeah that are in his orbit, specifically around comedy, and we'll get to that. But I just, I do think that there's a constant theme with Rogan that when it's about comedy,
00:41:09
Speaker
People have to understand that stand-up comedy is about being the clown in the room who can say anything. And it doesn't mean you mean it. So when you say stupid shit or crazy shit, if you say something misogynistic, it's probably to point out something culturally that you don't agree with. Okay, so that that's his, um I'm not saying I'm gonna defend all of the things that he or his friends have ever said, I'm just saying. yeah it's i i can totally like If we zoom in that closely, then at that level, yeah, I agree with that. But then you zoom out and you're like, they're not oblivious to the influence that they have. yeah thats true And you have to accept
00:41:59
Speaker
the responsibility that comes with your great power, spiderman moment, which is that when you get on stage in front of a bunch of people and say some shit, some people are going to take it at face value and run with it.
00:42:14
Speaker
and yeah i don't think The only way you can be funny is to say a bunch of controversial stuff. You're not really that funny and honestly, you're probably doing a lot of harm that you don't even see happening. Yes. and well So um' I'm torn on that just because I do agree that a lot of there's a lot of bad comedy that just leans on awful content. what How shocking can I be right now? yeah But at the same time,
00:42:44
Speaker
i I agree with Rogan on his general philosophy of comedy, which is if you start censoring because something isn't politically correct, if you start censoring because you're gonna get canceled, then you've lost the entire point of stand-up comedy. And he believes that stand-up comedy is one of the last cultural institutions that is kind of holding the line and saying, we can say crazy shit and work this stuff out.
00:43:12
Speaker
in front of like in front of an audience, if you are upset about what I said, great. That means you're thinking about it and we're talking about it. So I that's i think that that, like I have respect for that ah of that position. I suppose, yeah, I suppose. I do find it a little bit like we shouldn't be looking to the stand-up comedians to be pushing our culture forward and instigating discussion.
00:43:41
Speaker
I think it's pretty self-indulgent to say, the comedians are on the front line of culture. It's not really what he's saying. We have to stop the government from centering us and we are You know, it's like, okay, you're a stand-up comedian. like Right. But he's talking about it in the context of the role of a court jester, the role there's a specific thing that he talks about in um Native American communities where
00:44:17
Speaker
there's there was a specific it's actually interesting because it's a person and generally this person in the in certain I don't remember what tribe it was but certain Native American communities their role was like the jokester that's they were kind typically like a non-binary person And that like if you were born that way then then they knew that's what you were gonna be oh this and gods have given you the gift of comedy essentially it it that it it was but the it's the gift of You can say It's the gift of you can say the craziest shit about the leader and If that person doesn't laugh then they're full of shit. Okay, that's so interesting because I am reading a book
00:45:06
Speaker
It's Brandon Sanderson, the Stormlight ah books, and they have a like jester character yeah who is like very different from regular jesters in that like he is given a name, I forget what it is, but the name is given to every person that fills this role.
00:45:29
Speaker
but like they come and go but like every time there's a new one you just talk to them like they're the same person basically and their role is to poke shit at all of the people in power and if you you're allowed legally to kill him but if you do
00:45:49
Speaker
Everybody knows that they said something to you that got under your skin so much yeah that you killed them So it's like more shameful, right? Then to just take the shit that he's throwing and it's awesome. I bet that I bet that's There's a thread here from the same the same kind of concept that again. I'm sorry. We're yeah this is the shallow end after all we i I know not of what I speak, but it sounds interesting I'm just and I say that only to just sort of give um some context to where Rogan is coming from when he's saying crazy shit like We're stand-up comedians. We shouldn't be self censoring. I guess that's so anyway um I You know, it's it's interesting because I i find that his comedy is
00:46:38
Speaker
mid to mid mid to upper level kind of comedy. I don't think it's great. um But then ah yeah like the author starts to talk about his politics, which is, I think, one of the most difficult things to pin down yes about Joe Rogan. And she says that. Yeah. So I loved that this is how she just sort of summarized it. He hates democratic finger wagging, but supports gay marriage and abortion rights.
00:47:08
Speaker
So he like he's not he talks about this all the time, too. He's not tribal in the sense of he's got his like he's in the Republican Club or the MAGA Club or he's in the Liberal Club. He's actually intentionally rejecting being in in a tribe. in a tribe on yeah yeah On the political front, for sure. He certainly has his comedy tribe. and he certainly has his conspiracy tribe and he certainly has his alien tribe. Yeah we'll get there. But then she she kind of just like again we're kind of still in the introduction of this article but she says he is perhaps the single most influential person in the United States. I highlighted that too because I call bullshit
00:47:51
Speaker
You think he's the single most influential person. He has been the most listened to podcast for five years. Yes. but Taylor Swift lives here. Okay. So Taylor Swift just endorsed Kamala. Yes. And, um, linked the like voter registration site in, in the post and like they got 130,000 people in like an hour or two or something like that. It was really cool. Anyway, so my,
00:48:21
Speaker
I would say I would be hard pressed to think that Taylor Swift is going to move the needle in the polls for Kamala Harris just based on an endorsement because all of the tip a vast majority of Taylor Swift fans were already going to vote for Kamala Harris and then a bunch of them aren't old enough to vote.
00:48:40
Speaker
so And a bunch of them are now throwing tantrums on the internet because she endorsed Kamala. Oh, really? so maybe Okay. Well, but Joe Rogan is is very hard to pin down on any of this stuff. He had ah RFK Jr. on his podcast, but he doesn't he refuses to have Trump on his podcast. he refuses to have kamala on his pocket He doesn't want to turn it into a political podcast. I think that's totally He's had politicians on, right? But he doesn't want to be the main character in an election, which is great. Thank you. I think I'd prefer you not be. Well done. You realize your place here and you know that that isn't it. Yeah.
00:49:22
Speaker
um
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah, but I am constantly, as someone who has read the 10-page article and listens to him fairly regularly. I don't listen to every podcast. but Well, it'd be a lot of hours to listen. That's a full-time job.
00:49:37
Speaker
um I have a hard time pinning him down. I I do think he's a bit of a chameleon So that's part of the problem. He just kind of like he'll talk himself into anything when he's sitting there Talking for three hours with somebody like I struggle to find respect for him. Yeah, yeah that's because he's like Rebecca. He's just asking questions Okay, all right so back to the the The actual topic of the article is how Joe Rogan remade Austin. It's very focused on the city of Austin. I didn't know this much about Austin. I didn't either. Whatever. I think that I'm going to do another one of these read a paragraph things. yeah because i highlighted this I bracketed this whole paragraph about Austin.
00:50:26
Speaker
okay
00:50:29
Speaker
The city attracts people with a distinct set of political positions that don't exactly line up with either main party. They might be religious, but are equally likely to be spiritual. quote spiritual quote yeah They shoot guns, but worry about seed oils. They're relaxed about gay people, but often traditional about gender. They dabble with psychedelic drugs, but worry about drinking caffeine first thing in the morning.
00:50:52
Speaker
Their numbers might be relatively small in electoral terms, but they transmit their values to the rest of America through podcasts, YouTube, and other platforms, largely outside the view of mainstream media. yeah So this is a really great encapsulation of both Austin as it's been as has it evolved, specifically post pandemic, and the whole man-o-verse podcast community Rogan yeah solar system it It's probably what I mean it keeps going by the way, but yeah, she's she really yeah it's interesting the way that she I never realized that this was like a phenomena and that that phenomenon non Channel your inner Muppet phenomenon Good
00:51:49
Speaker
that Rogan moved to Austin and then it kind of transformed. I didn't realize that that happened. Yeah. Rogan moved to Austin because, because they were open during the pandemic. Yeah. As did many other people. He doesn't claim to be the first. Okay. Hang on. There is a quote from a woman or not a quote, but Oh my gosh, she really bounces around in this place. Yeah, she does.
00:52:21
Speaker
She talks about some white woman that moved to Austin because she was a liberal, but she started looking around at- Oh yeah, the schools one? Yeah. And i I bracketed it in my note. Oh, here it is. I wrote sad trombone, won't won't.
00:52:45
Speaker
Oh, wow, really? When is my reaction? Would you like to hear the paragraph that made me go? Oh, shut up. I know. I know the paragraph because I I love the term left you G. Oh, yeah. So this is about a quote left you G. That that the author wrote or met.
00:53:08
Speaker
who is, this woman that she meets is a rabbi's wife, lifelong Democrat who used to live in New York city and then San Francisco and moved to Austin because it was open during the pandemic. Right. So this is the paragraph.
00:53:24
Speaker
When Ayn, that's the woman, questioned the policy, suggesting instead, oh, I forgot to read the policy. Yeah, you gotta read the policy. Sorry, the policy is the school started converting its bathrooms to gender neutral ones, right? And this woman questions this decision and suggests instead that some gender neutral bathrooms should be provided alongside the existing girls and boys bathrooms. She was ostracized, she said.
00:53:54
Speaker
One father told her that her, quote, wanting a space I feel more comfortable in, that's a female space, reminded him of segregationists. The dispute reminded her of other ways she'd felt alienated from the left. While helping her husband tend to his congregation, she had seen marital strife, substance abuse, suicide attempts, and other harms that she attributed to prolonged lockdowns.
00:54:17
Speaker
Okay, I think you missed one of the most important elements of that story of this lady raging against the school, the private school private school that her children were going to.
00:54:30
Speaker
They were talking, the they were talking about gender neutral bathrooms for kindergartners who are non-binary and kindergartners who are trans. Okay. There, there was, when I read that, there was a heavy eye roll on my. don't look Okay. Good. There was a heavy eye roll, but I also am like, okay. It's hard to phrase, but like,
00:54:58
Speaker
Welcome to our anti-Karen podcast. I don't believe that a kindergartner knows enough about the world and society to be able to label themselves as trans. Right. I don't think that a kindergartner can't to beat a trans person.
00:55:28
Speaker
But I do think that that's a baby, that's a child, that's a tiny, tiny human. And all we need to care about is that it's a tiny human and it needs to go to school and be happy. It needs to be affirmed, Rebecca. It needs to be affirmed and supported and needs to have a place to void its excrement. And if it's a bathroom. And be reminded to wash their hands. That anybody can go into and out of Whatever. i Okay. So I agree with you. A hundred percent. gives a These are not the issues that lead you to uproot your family and move 1200 miles to she goes to Austin, Texas. She was ostracized. Oh no.
00:56:19
Speaker
You poor white woman, you were ostracized? That must have been so hard for you. You should talk to the trans community about that and let them know that you understand their plight and their struggle. Yeah, so I have very little sympathy for this woman. Well, I think that the best part of that little vignette is um that this lady
00:56:43
Speaker
moved to Texas and this is she now runs an off-the-record discussion group called moon tower versus which meets in person to discuss culture war topics and all I put there was gross right like oh okay and so it is revealed that this woman actually really sucks Yeah. And probably isn't the liberal she claims to be. Exactly. think Exactly. That's why I'm like sad trombone wall. Yeah. Yeah. No, I got you. you know um I think we agree there. Yeah. But anyway, that's further to the end. I was going to say you jumped. I did jump, but that's just because like the discussion of like the the pilgrimage to Austin for, you know,
00:57:29
Speaker
Like, I just, I rolled so many times at this, like, gosh, you're just such self victimization, that it's like sickening to me. And I'm i'm just gonna say, i again, this is one of the things that I appreciate about uh every like generally when I listen to Rogan is that he is allergic to the victim culture kind of yeah attitude and but this like reading this did help me understand that there is an element of that in his the way that he operates yes because he's the the author of this article actually points out like
00:58:11
Speaker
The only place she's found people continuing to try to re-litigate COVID vaccines, shutdowns and everything in 2024 is Joe Rogan because he was so canceled during that time.
Rogan's COVID Discussions and Media Treatment
00:58:28
Speaker
And ah it's like, i okay, at a certain level, I think he he has the right to do that because he was asking some questions at the time that were proven correct.
00:58:41
Speaker
But he also, I mean, he asks so many questions all the time that he's bound to be correct. broken right But I also think that he was very, uh, unreasonably taken down by mainstream culture with his own experience. Like, yeah, I got COVID and I took this drug and then they, like he was a news item because people were saying he's taking horse dewormer and His story is basically, no, I tested positive for COVID. I went to my doctor and my doctor prescribed all these things and I did it and I felt better. And I don't understand why I'm in trouble for following my doctor's orders. like And a lot of people misrepresent what that was to try to prove a point that he was a disinformation person. Yes, I think that is true, but I also think that
00:59:37
Speaker
We can't just look at this stuff in like an isolation chamber of like individual things that he's done because it builds. Right, absolutely. You know, yeah yeah that's people for sure took that and ran with it because he had hosted people who were spouting absolute crap and like fake science And so when, like, people are more ready to jump down his throat about this stuff because he has a track record of, you know. Oh, of course. And I agree with that 100%. I think that one of the things that he finds really fun is talking about crazy shit. Yes, that's true. And it does, like, to your point, it like that lends an air of credibility
01:00:32
Speaker
You know you have tens of millions of people. You know what your listenership is. You're trying to tear down mainstream media because they're so twisted and then at the same time you're actively engaging with a Bigfoot researcher. like What? What are we doing? So this is one of the lines that I highlighted from on that note. The author says, it's ah what fans love about Rogan is the same thing as critics hate, an untameable curiosity that makes him open to plainly marginal ideas. I highlighted that one too. Which is just, again, such a great synthesis of the Joe Rogan
01:01:18
Speaker
cultural phenomenon. Yeah. Okay. I highlighted that too. And then I also highlighted something a couple lines down and started. He approaches all of them, tenured professors, same highlight, countless crackpots, peddlers of pseudoscience with the same stoner wonderment. And that really is like, like the problem I have. It's like you You know how many people listen to you. You know like the fan base that you have who are going to believe anything you say.
01:01:50
Speaker
And you're bringing people on just ask good questions and and treating them like the credibility is equal. Right. Now that's true. what It's very much not. Well, and one of his, the his style is very much open-ended. He, he, he leans into long form interview or discussions and he will, he refuses.
01:02:15
Speaker
to take somebody down. He will not, he he will let someone spew, and sometimes in future podcasts, he'll refer back to it and be like, yeah, that was crazy. that And there's there's a reference to one of them in here. It's the the the actor who was in Iron Man. You told me about this dude. Yeah, I don't remember jamon did James I don't know. No, that's the actor from Psych. No.
01:02:46
Speaker
um I don't remember he plays he's Iron Man sidekick. He's the other guy that flies in the suit roadie roadie. Yeah, but but That guy, you know, Rogan thinks he's brilliant he's brilliant but but it's it's he he and this's this is the sentence he did say this in this podcast if this podcast was pure comedy unintentional comedy and for three hours. He says, one guest tells him that the periodic table needs to be updated because carbon has a bisexual tone. It's so funny. Carbon has a bisexual tone is something I'm going to put on my applications to grad school. I'm sure you'll get in to psychedelic you. Yeah. Anyway, so there's, there's a, yeah, I get it's, yeah.
01:03:44
Speaker
I just have this frustration with people who intentionally ignore how many people are listening to them as as in like as an excuse to say whatever the hell they want. Or not even to say, but, because with Rogan, he's not usually the one saying this stuff. but To just put crazy shit into the universe. And you treat it like it's all the same.
01:04:13
Speaker
but Come on. You gotta know it's not he called carbon bisexual, please. Yeah Yeah, no, I get it I I Think you yeah, you have to develop a certain level of ah ah filter yes instinct instinctive filter to to to listen to Rogan and like I said I don't listen to all of them because some of them I listen I read the description I'm like I'm not listening to that asshole for me yeah um but yeah that's the thing it's like knowing that you listen to Rogan I'm like okay I
01:04:59
Speaker
I'm not going to, but I don't think that my dad is going to be red-pilled into, you know? Like, I know that you have the ability to, like, think on your own. I don't have the same trust in the American public. Well, I, um, thank you, I guess. Yeah, you're welcome. Compliment to you roast on the rest of the America. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:25
Speaker
you know
01:05:28
Speaker
Well, you know, where else are we going to talk about non-binary kindergartners? Oh my gosh.
01:05:37
Speaker
So all right, let's skip back ahead to where we were before. keep moving After the the rabbi's wife was outed as not really leftist. Then the the article brings up this thing called the University of Austin.
01:05:57
Speaker
Which is ah yes really, an ah it's it's like Hillsdale of the South. It's an unapologetically right wing, classical education kind of place. But they claim to not be that. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:13
Speaker
um
01:06:16
Speaker
I did like this. So there are, she she gives them credit that there are serious academics starting the school and they've raised a bunch of money and they're just getting started. ah But this is another one of these beautiful little nuggets of synthesis that this author puts
Exploration of Controversial Ideas
01:06:35
Speaker
together.
01:06:35
Speaker
I bet I highlighted this exact same sentence. The UATX, the University of Austin, Texas, has leaned into the Roganite philosophy that people must tolerate wacko ideas in order to hear intriguingly heretical ones. ye simson um and i and And they have a summer school ah court program called Forbidden Courses.
01:06:58
Speaker
I mean, these are really just marketing tools in my brain. My brain's calling bullshit on all this. It's like you just, it's, and I think she even says it's like kind of Trump university style, but with more real content. Like there are some people that work there that are like real, yeah like real academics, but yeah see I bracketed this part.
01:07:24
Speaker
And just my note is all all the people that that have been canceled and been canceled because she goes through it. She says the speaker's included ah u hx cofounder and she she she goes through each person and and says what they were canceled by. And I love the end though. I love the end too. And my fellow Atlantic writer, Thomas Chatterton Williams inexplicably not canceled. But I also like how it's like canceled by haters on Slack and Twitter. Okay. That's the correct meaning of the word canceled. Yeah.
01:07:56
Speaker
Cancelled by Portland State University. Okay, fired, maybe. Cancelled by a literal fatwa. That's a law. It's a legal ruling. yeah You weren't canceled. well There was a ruling made. The imam ruled that you needed to be shut up. It's just funny. like Because, yeah, they would be like, oh, cancel culture. It's like, no, you got fired. That's different. You were fired. Yeah, I agree. I just thought it was funny. I like that. I like that paragraph.
01:08:35
Speaker
Oh, here's another thing that I highlighted. um She talks about how she had this discussion with the, how do you say that word? prot Provost? Where he says he wants to get politics out of the classroom and that faculty members will have succeeded if the students can't guess how they vote from what they say in class. And I highlighted that because I was like, yeah, I agree with that. You know, but ideally that's how it would go.
01:09:03
Speaker
But if somebody is going to this university, they're probably going already decided on which way they're gonna vote, you know? Yeah, and i I don't know that I want university classes to be so afraid of certain types of speech that you can't tell what how someone's gonna vote. I'd prefer a professor in certain topics, right? Yeah, it depends on the topic, I think.
01:09:31
Speaker
This is what I think this is the actual Academic content and you're free to think whatever you want And I'm gonna grade you based on the quality of your thinking not your position your opinion on it. Yeah, and I just think the I feel like it's an overreaction like we want you to not even know what good luck humans are tribal beings we're gonna we're gonna talk about these things um but you know they're they they they feel I think they feel like they're on a cultural crusade so yeah whatever I mean also she she talks about how
01:10:10
Speaker
An attendee from last year's Forbidden Courses Summer School sent her a slide showing survey results about the students' political leanings. Out of 29 respondents, 19 identified as conservative. So... Which is actually fewer than I would have expected for that place. I guess, but the probably the other ones all identified as like... Ultra-conservative. Christian nationalists. Christian nationalists. No, as like... um
01:10:40
Speaker
Hello, I'm blanking. Libertarians. Yes. but Probably the rest of them are libertarian. With some conservative viewpoints. I don't know. Yeah, I think you're probably right. I'm making assumptions, but.
01:10:56
Speaker
um
01:10:59
Speaker
Right. Do you want to know another thing that I bracketed and I just wrote agreed? Oh, gosh. What? Anti-woke-ness once encompassed everyone who could agree that Drew Barrymore's talk show was annoying, that some left-wing activists on TikTok were out of control, and that corporations were largely banging on about diversity to sell more products rather than out of a genuine commitment to human flourishing. And I was like, I guess I'm anti-woke. Because- Yep, that all makes sense. Yep, yep, yep. I agree with all three of those things. Yeah, and and and I had bracketed just ah just prior to that.
01:11:39
Speaker
The Joe Rogan Coalition may represent a real strand in American intellectual and political life, a normie suspicion of both MAGA hats and eternal masking mixed with tolerance for kooky ideas.
01:11:54
Speaker
um And that is definitely Joe Rogan. Yes. And yeah, anti-woke is one of his big, you know, he bangs that drum all the time. And I do think anti-woke comes from a legitimate backlash to people going too far. But now anti-woke is going too far. Yes. Gosh, people just can't chill. I'm getting whiplash. Yeah.
01:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, but see see you start with gay marriage and now you've got drag queens in this kindergarten class and yeah, well hold on a second second ah love that Yeah, like that's because she does say it's fracturing yeah, but she says because it's it is become What originally was opposing mm-hmm and It's becoming the Thought Police. The Thought Police, um you know, echo chamber. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like cult kind of vibe.
01:12:58
Speaker
Do we want to talk about Alex Jones? I think we should. Okay. I think it's great because I think that it's fair to bring up. Yeah. And I think she's freaking wrong on some of her conclusions. so Okay. Interesting. Cause I don't know a ton about this enough to know if she's wrong about these conclusions. Well, so, I mean, you know, Alex Jones. I do know Alex Jones. So ah one of the authors, uh, you know, many many theses in here. is here's here's Here's a line. Rogan's sympathetic treatment of his friend Alex Jones demonstrates why power is better mediated through institutions than wielded by individuals.
01:13:36
Speaker
And I'm like, but every fiber in my being revolts against that statement. You can judge Joe Rogan for how he's handled Alex Jones and his relationship, but concluding that we should just allow power to be mediated through institutions instead of through individuals based based on it. It's like so fucked up. I don't even know where to begin. It's like you are so and in with you know the the legacy massive institutions that run your life that you don't think you can do it better. that's
01:14:11
Speaker
It's just such a jump. I feel like it's so anti-American, too. It's Stop it. We're individualists here. Yeah, come on. Come on, Ellen. Get it together. No, I also thought that was such like, like I said, just like, I felt like such a jump, like, OK, I'm with you that Alex Jones sucks. And the way that this friendship and like the way that and Rogan still platforms this guy, like sucks. But the jump to that huge claim about power yeah was like, I was also like, whoa, like reeled a little bit. Well, she repeats it a few paragraphs later and adds to it a little bit. I think it's a bad edit, but um she follows it with
01:15:02
Speaker
it She says it is okay Yeah, it's too easy to be sympathetic to a man sitting in front of you whom you know is a complete person Rather than to his distant unseen victims Also, it's good to be open-minded, but not so much that your brain falls out i highlighted that I mean it's that's that's an easy thing to say. I actually think it's better That you provide your experience with your friend as a complete human being to help to fill out, where did this go wrong? I suppose. He actually uses, Rogan actually uses Alex Jones in his comedy show. Yes, he does. As an example, like he says, hey, this is my friend and he's been right on a lot of things. And then he was wrong on one thing. It's kind of a big thing. And it is funny. It's genuinely funny.
01:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, i guess I guess so. I struggle a little bit with like, like the... the yeah When one person has such an effect that
01:16:17
Speaker
ah an insane number of people are negatively affected by the choice that that one person makes. right When I look at that situation, my concern is not, oh, but that's a whole person with layers and dimension, and we need to understand that he probably has a lot going on and maybe something happened in his, it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
01:16:41
Speaker
i don't I don't have sympathy for that. Yeah, no, no, I'm not looking for. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I'm not looking for sympathy from it. What I'm saying is it's, it's okay to have that information come to the forefront to me almost as like, how can we fix this in the future? Yeah. like Like a social scientist is like, what, what can we learn from where this guy came from? Because he's clearly like,
01:17:08
Speaker
it It took multiple court cases and a billion and a half dollar judgment for Alex Jones to suddenly figure out that he had absolutely harmed people and taken a bunch of people whose lives were awful. form And it made it worse in material ways. Yes. So I do think it's okay to have that be a topic of conversation where it's like, Oh, you're his friend. Tell me how he's so screwed up. But that's not really, I mean,
01:17:44
Speaker
I think that's maybe giving, um, like the credit of your interpretation of that to him. And I wrote in and I don't think that that's what's going through his mind. Um, maybe it is, but I don't believe that it is. So I don't know.
01:18:06
Speaker
Also,
01:18:08
Speaker
I don't know. Whatever. we wound up getting to get into this we yeah i know we We wound up in this article. I think it's really interesting. What I'm finding now that we've done this a few times yeah is that a lot of a lot of people have clickbait headlines and they don't really want to talk about what they say. the head They want to dance around it and give us a bunch of context and like history. and This woman really wanted to write About Joe Rogan and she decided to for some reason say that it's all about how he remade Austin She barely she doesn't really talk about she talks a little bit, but it's really about it's not the majority of them. Yeah, I Would like to tell you The final sentence that I highlighted. I'm curious if you highlighted it. too I don't know. I don't think you did I did This is in the final paragraph of the article
01:19:01
Speaker
He, meaning Rogan, he speaks to people who feel silenced, both elite and normie, even as he's turned the very idea that opinions like his are being, quote, silenced into a joke in itself. And I thought that was interesting because he speaks to people who feel silenced, but not the classic communities like the LGBT community or the, you know, women or the, no, it's like primarily like men who are like. Yeah. Political fringe. Who are on the political fringe and are like cancel cultures out of control. I'm being silenced. This is our leader who's not afraid of the left, the libs.
01:19:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I think that it's interesting. My own experience with, uh, listening to Joe Rogan is that.
Listener Engagement Strategy
01:20:02
Speaker
He's kind of riding this line between I'm super humble and I'm just here to learn and ask questions. Sometimes he's got really fascinating people on and they're talking hard science and it's really cool. And sometimes he's got kooks on.
01:20:22
Speaker
And he's treating them the same way. Yes. And um to your point, he knows the influence he has who tries to play it off as I'm so humble. And I've heard him say a couple times that.
01:20:41
Speaker
You know in terms of just the way that the whole thing started like well I just wanted to talk to my friends and have some fun And that's how the how it started ten whatever however long ago it was but 2009 yeah, it's been going on and the last episode. I listened to was the episode 2020 that's so Yeah, especially when you think most of them are like two hours or three hours long But when people people come to him these very fawning like thanks for having me on I I really appreciate the opportunity What you do is so valuable. You're so important to our modern discourse study that it I may just sit there and you know, brown nose yeah, and he
01:21:31
Speaker
He likes to kind of lean into this every man. Well, I'm not sure I did anything I just you know I I think the universe wanted this to happen and I just I just happened to be the person Oh, that is so much. It's so weird. It's then if you just were like, well, I mean I made a podcast and you know the algorithm gods decided to bless me I guess or or I'm just really humbled by the support and I'm happy that people are listening I'm just decided I i guess I was the one to do this you this What are you talking about? Very important job. The universe needed this to happen and I was just the outlet for it to happen. That's so annoying. He sounds like such a hippie sometimes. but Also, and this is based off of no actual reasoning, logic, evidence whatsoever. I just don't like him. He's just annoying to me. He gets on my nerves. He gets under my skin. I don't like the way he talks.
01:22:28
Speaker
Well, because you've never really heard him talk other than in clips on TikTok. So... No. You sent me a Joe Rogan episode and I listened to about 30 minutes. And then I said, I can't anymore. I listened to this man. So I tried. Okay. It's okay. Well, I got you like i got you to talk about Joe Rogan for an hour. Oh, gosh. I feel so... Liberal card revoked.
01:22:56
Speaker
No, I just, I just feel like very successful tonight. Yeah. Accomplished and humbled. I'm very humbled. The universe wanted this to happen. So yeah. Hey, I had ah a thought where clearly we're wrapping up. I had a thought though. I wonder if we should plan articles a week ahead and post next week's articles in the notes for episodes so that people can read. Yes, I think that's a good idea ahead of time. Yeah. Well, because right now we're you're posting them, but then they're just listening. They're probably just listening to the podcast and not reading the articles. But if we give them the articles, but I don't want it. I don't know. I feel that
01:23:48
Speaker
That means we would have to pick articles like tomorrow. Number one, that would mean that I would have to do this a week ahead instead of two days ahead or a day off, which for me sounds bad. But also I think that it's wishful thinking.
01:24:08
Speaker
Yeah. That people are reading the articles. People are reading them. I mean, okay. My hope is that we're entertaining enough on our own record that reading of the article is not an essential part of listening. Okay. All right. We can focus on that. And it's just like, um, like read the article because it's good, but it's not a necessary qualification. I did get in the wild feedback again last week. In the wild feedback. Do me please. Um, somebody I work with.
01:24:39
Speaker
said, Hey, I, uh, I was listening on the way to work and I really liked the new format. You guys were, that was really good one. Which one was it? I don't know which one he was too. I hope it was the most recent one. Cause I thought was pretty good, but yeah. Um, so there you go. Okay. I also like our new format a lot. I'm really enjoying it. ah Yeah. I feel like I'm learning.
01:25:08
Speaker
ah We're talking about interesting things. Without having to come up with all of it on your own. Right. Exactly. Because that's exhausting, guys. This is a hard job. And podcasting is all about leveraging other people's content. So true to us. To look fancy and smart. Anyway. This was fun. This was fun. Even though we talked about Jogen and the Manosphere.
01:25:34
Speaker
Yes. Finally, I got to express myself. Finally, do you feel better? such a weight off my shoulders maybe maybe um joey will listen to this episode and reach out to you personally yeah maybe i can maybe i can be a guest maybe you can be a guest on the joe rogan exhibit it can be a little podcast promotion circle jerk podcast within podcast again all right something like that well thanks for joining us for this episode of yeah we love you guys and we'll see you next week