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Tumblereads: AI and Cold Buckets of Water
69 Plays3 days ago
We're Tumblereading again, and this time we started talking about those things that just pull us out of books when we read—and also about AI (and reader responses to it).
Some links to things we talked about at smutreport.com/podcast.
Have a question or a discussion point for us? Leave us a comment!
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 40
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Smart Report podcast. I'm Erin. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Holly. And ah yeah this is episode two of TumbleReads.
00:00:14
Speaker
but i Guess what? It's episode 40 of our podcast. Oh my gosh, that's so many. Officially a grown podcasters. but Just like us. yeah day Yeah. Oh, Ollie.
00:00:26
Speaker
Why? now, I've got some time before that happens. ah no you No, it's coming for you. ah My neighbors say you're right, but my heart says you're wrong.
00:00:38
Speaker
Yeah, right.
Introduction to TumbleReads
00:00:39
Speaker
So to remind our listeners, that our tumble reads is a new thing that we're doing. That's 30 minute, like, what are we going to talk about? i don't know. We're just going to talk because this is how we like to engage with books together.
00:00:53
Speaker
um So this I'm Erin, I'm in seeing this week, and I'm going to set our timer, maybe. Ooh, All right, here we go. So I said on the chat when we were trying to decide if Ingrid or I should MC this week that I have a couple things to talk about.
00:01:11
Speaker
Maybe. i don't know. So ah I volunteered as tribute. And so I was thinking about what I would just do is leave it up to you. Like, okay, what should we talk about?
00:01:21
Speaker
So Thing one was i brought She punted. No, no,
Erin's Experience with Executive Office Series
00:01:26
Speaker
no, no. i have a plan-ish. But thing one that I was thinking about was, and I had texted you guys about it, but we didn't really get into a conversation about it. I was re-listening this week to some comfort reads.
00:01:38
Speaker
um It was the Executive Office series by Tal Bauer. And that hits different now. But yeah, ah yeah, I was like, because it's like political machinations all over the world.
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah. And like, like, government takeovers. The president and a spy. The president and a secret service head, like, yeah, go off on adventures. And like, there's a general trying to like overthrow the entire world government organization.
00:02:07
Speaker
It's a whole thing. It's a very big adventure. that's really It's fun, but it's like completely over the top as well. But what happened when I was listening to it, I think it's like book two of the series.
00:02:20
Speaker
ah The author is like, and they went to Silver Springs, Maryland. And I was like, hu oh it is not silver springs it's just silver spring and the same with uh another they're actually oh this snow airland the snow in dc yeah there was i was like oh my god it does not snow christmas no we do not have white christmases holly was like we did one time when i was seven was like no one time in like 40 years is no um it hasn't been like that bad but yeah we don't we don't really do white christmas is here so just like all those little things that come up in books where you're like and now i'm out of it like this is just rage making right now it's so irrational like who cares about the name of this one town suburb of washington dc but it was like so irritating every time the narrator said it in the audiobook
00:03:12
Speaker
So that was one thing. And we could just like have a little venti-venti session about like what, ah
AI's Impact on Romance Literature
00:03:18
Speaker
what happened. Maybe it's not even vending, but like what happens when that occurs while we're reading a book and takes you out of the story? Because I know Holly's talked before in a review about like,
00:03:27
Speaker
being enraged about highways in Texas and so on and so forth it happens a lot it's true so that's one thing the other thing was I sent you guys was it yesterday a that link about the reviewer being like this book is obviously except for was like all very typical ah like she had little just the trait sayings from romance that if you've read romance it's like always been there So I was also thinking that we could discuss further like the impact of AI in the conversation about romance because every time I go on socials, which is not as much, but every now and again, especially I'll like get sucked in to threads via Instagram because those insidious little like pictures that are like half of a statement and I'm like, what's the rest of it makes me click into threads.
00:04:19
Speaker
Um, yeah. But it comes up a lot where there's like, oh, this is so AI. This cover is AI. And well, they're kind of connected if you think about it. Sorry to interject.
00:04:31
Speaker
oh good Well, I know I'm going to tie it together here. Maybe it's a leap. But I think in both cases, it's something that that pulls you out of the story, you know, because you're not I mean, you're not. so Ideally, you're supposed to kind of get sucked into something and kind of float along the river of whatever the plot is that the author has done for you.
00:04:49
Speaker
And sometimes when you're reading, whether it be a sentence that just is so like like so contract so cheaply constructed that but it it pulls you out, or if it's a factoid that you just happened to know wasn't well researched, it's kind of like you're relaxing on a nice warm river, like lazy river of happiness, and then someone just dumps a bottle like a bucket of ice water on you. You know what I mean?
00:05:12
Speaker
So I
Challenges for Indie Authors
00:05:13
Speaker
think it's similar. maybe maybe that's Maybe that's a reach, but I think maybe you've come up with something that's kind of connected. Yeah. so I love how you can always find the connections in whatever we're talking about, Ingrid.
00:05:24
Speaker
um' umm I'm somebody who likes connection. but I think with respect to reading the question of AI and then like research issues, that's totally relevant.
00:05:35
Speaker
um A lot of people are also just like discounting books altogether because of their covers. ah Right. And digital illustration has been around for a really long time. Like computer illustrate, like they'll take pictures. I don't know if anybody who is listening and I'm assuming you guys have seen it, but like the way that cover models work is oftentimes a designer of a cover will take a photo of a person in a pose, for example, and then add a bunch of stuff to it. Like you can, I have seen time-lapse videos of illustrators, like,
00:06:10
Speaker
adding longer flowing hair in a different like turning the hair a different color and making it longer and more like blowing in the wind and like maybe the model had on sheath dress kind of thing and then it becomes like a Georgian ball gown you know like it's not and that is still an artist doing the work but like things have been changed and modified so Right. I mean, I feel like, you know, 15 years ago, it would just be like, oh, these indie are these indie authors and their bad Photoshop covers.
00:06:41
Speaker
Right? um Like, it's the same. I mean, like, the like using bad Photoshop and using Gen.ai to make a cover are, like, ah morally maybe two different things. But setting aside that, the reader response, I feel like, is very similar.
00:06:58
Speaker
Like, oh, like, the implication is, oh, that's a sloppy, cheap cover. that you didn't pay a real artist to do. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, it's been a long time, so I don't know if you guys remember, but ah think the illustrator's name is Ink and Laurel.
00:07:15
Speaker
um Some beautiful illustrated colors by this artist. Beautiful, beautiful. And very stylistically unique as well. um But I went on to look at this person's website and the pricing was like $700.
00:07:32
Speaker
seven hundred dollars And should an artist get paid for their work? Absolutely. We support art. We all support art. but but ah In ah many forms. But... that is very out of reach for most indie authors.
00:07:48
Speaker
So, you know, I have a friend who's an author who's published well more books than me and, uh, she hires out her covers,
Trends in Romance Novels and AI Assumptions
00:07:57
Speaker
but you know, her budget is, her budget is a hundred dollars for covers, uh, as like the last time I talked to her.
00:08:04
Speaker
And that's still a big outlay for something that you haven't earned any money from yet, you know? uh, so ah Well, it may not. you may not earn You may not earn what you, especially if you're self-published, I mean, you might not earn what you put into it. So it's, yeah some of this is really a labor of love. um But yeah, it's, i I do, the post that you sent specifically if we is was ah more about like turns of phrases, I think. Yes, that's true.
00:08:30
Speaker
Which is really hard. Yeah. there yeah and that's interesting with like, you but this other question of what pulls you out is like, for this particular reader, she's like, oh, these turns of phrases, which in her very limited youthful teenage experience did not match her reality or her reading. And think the problem, the disconnect there is instead of being like, whoa, these turns of phrases are weird to me.
00:09:00
Speaker
and I'm going to write a post about how this is a disgusting sentence, like I did about the delve of his tongue into the dark recesses of her mouth. Yeah.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. yeah um like that's what she was like oh obviously a computer most have written it which i it's and i mean and this is a whole thing because then it like the author is suing her because don't know, defamation or defamation, because the author is like, no, I never use AI in my books. And you saying I use AI in my books is harming my reputation.
00:09:36
Speaker
um But I feel like that's like the whole, whether or not AI is a valid thing to use in a book or whatever, versus the question of what pulls you out of the book and how you deal with it are kind of two separate things even though things like yeah things like a chat gpt prompt in the middle of your book would definitely pull you out of the story sure i okay so you're reading it well i don't i don't think anybody is at a point of feeling like ai in this kind of art is appropriate right like that's
00:10:12
Speaker
Uh, there are definitely authors who are like, well, they're using it.
AI and Speed of Publishing
00:10:16
Speaker
I use it. and And what is the reasoning behind that? Right? Like, this is, is it that, oh, my language isn't like good enough and I need help clearing it up or like, I'm not good at grammar, so I'm going to use it for that. Or is or because I feel like it helps me come up with ideas. It um means that I can write more books faster. i mean, like publishing. I mean, that is the reading, what writing more books faster, I think is a very,
00:10:41
Speaker
relevant things so think about how often you'll see posts and again like this is where we look at posts consume posts about this stuff because this is what we do full-time but um how often you see posts about people complaining about oh man like it's gonna take a whole year for this author to put her next book out like in romance in this sphere we're used to more rapid fire publication faster stuff you know and to and to compete with that to to be able to to keep up with that, I could easily see authors, because before it would be ghostwriting, you know, well, ghostwriting costs a lot of money, you know, you have to pay someone for their services.
00:11:19
Speaker
So, you know, putting that off onto an AI platform to see if you can, even if it's just like a chapter or like get me from where I am right now, like help me launch through to the next part that I want a write or whatever, I could see that being a use. I don't necessarily agree with that use, but I think we've, I mean, we're the, a culture of now, now, now, like our attention span is dwindling. And so I think that that's what I fear is that that is one thing that's happening in the publishing world is that readers want it faster and they don't want to lose attention.
00:11:49
Speaker
So they're going to start turning more towards automated stuff to try to fill in these like filler, you know, filler content in their own books. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the end result is probably not good.
00:12:00
Speaker
I don't know that I can say that I've read a book that obviously had AI content in it. Yeah, I was thinking about that myself. Zoe York was saying on probably threads that she didn't name names or anything. She's like, I can tell just by the cadence of the storytelling, but I don't think I've read enough that I have at that point personally to be able to be like, oh yeah, like read enough AI books to have that tracking.
00:12:28
Speaker
I mean, I feel like also the books, I i feel like the authors that are most likely to be using AI and this is a broad generalization and sorry if I'm defaming subgenres but are in niche indie subgenres where um there it's like a smaller tight-knit community I okay let me start over I feel like it's like Dark Romance, Motorcycle Club, like these in, but not the big ones, the like, the indie ones that are really all about volume. Because I feel like I'm not reading a lot of authors where their whole business model is volume, is is a book is two books a month, right? Yeah. Like those are, ah those are never authors that I was reading.
00:13:17
Speaker
right Right. Yeah. ah but I agree with that. You know, like I don't, I don't have a KU subscription. So like it could be ah more, I need to just put a lot of stuff on KU.
00:13:29
Speaker
model I don't know. And i would I would be more suspicious of books, yeah, I think that's a good point, that are on KU authors that have like huge lists that are newer. So like let's say they just started publishing in 2024 and they have 30 books on their roster. I mean, that would be somewhat suspicious to me. Now, The flip side of it, and I agree that I usually I can pick up trends and connections.
00:13:52
Speaker
um That's my, well, yeah, that's my, that's, I like to do that, but I don't even feel like I'm as well versed. I am a little, I'm a little bit suspicious of people who say like, oh, I can totally tell that this is AI generated because I, this is so new that I think we're all kind of picking up on stuff.
00:14:07
Speaker
I think a really good example of that is like Aaron was talking about these things. turns that turns of phrases that pull people out. Well, one of the one of the things that I'm picking up on in books that are coming out right now, I don't know if you guys have seen this phrase, is yep, popping the P. Have you guys seen that? With like multiple P's at the end?
00:14:24
Speaker
No, it's it it'll say she popped the P is what I'm seeing. Yeah, I've seen that. said popping her pee, like for emphasis, it's a very like new thing that's coming out. It's been in, I'm not kidding you, because you know, I went on this like recent binge and I sweared it was in at least like eight books across mean authors. I mean, like it's everywhere right now. Everyone's popping peas.
00:14:44
Speaker
And i think that... um With romance, these are, they can be somewhat shorter. You know, theyre ill there's a lot more books coming out more rapidly. And I think um I have seen this, and I think you guys probably have too, way before AI existed was that there were trends with certain phrases, right? Yeah.
00:15:03
Speaker
Sardonic brows. Sardonic brows. um The growling thing was so big for a while Oh, yeah all the growling. There's still some growling because of the face stuff. um And the padded across the floor.
00:15:14
Speaker
That is not just a shifter thing. That's been in, you know. yeah Oh, that's for ages. Yeah. He's going to pad across the floor to her. Sock footed.
00:15:25
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Sock footed. yeah Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I think, and and I also think this, so I think there's some stuff that's just kind of across genres in periods of time. Like if you take a slice of books published, a lot of people will, you know, we read, we're readers and we're writers. So like, you'll take a slice out and there's going to be phrases that are like commonly shared.
00:15:44
Speaker
And then also, you know, there's, think about the ah the Sarah J Maas, ACOTAR thing about the stomach. There are some authors who reuse the same phrases.
00:15:55
Speaker
It's just an author thing. and Oh, my gosh. About Sarah J. Moss and her... Was it a sour stomach? Her stomach was sloshy. What was it, Holly? you know I have no idea. I don't remember. She DNFed halfway through the first book. I only read the first book. so yeah There's this phrase that Sarah J. Moss uses in ACOTAR, and this poor... Farrah or whatever, her poor stomach. She needs to see a specialist because her stomach is going through something. Like...
00:16:20
Speaker
I don't know. It's like violin or something. I don't know what it is, but there's some phrase that she uses. It's like in every, it's like if you did ah game where you, I mean, obviously if you're a slow reader, it wouldn't be very fun for you. But if you did a shots game with that thing, you would at least be taking a shot multiple times a book. I'm not kidding. so um That poor girl had a stomach problem. But so there but there are certain turns of phrases that authors really like, you know, not maybe in a series, maybe in all their series.
00:16:44
Speaker
But um so I think the idea that you can just tell um I don't I don't get that.
AI's Influence on Creativity
00:16:49
Speaker
Because I also think this I think that um I personally. Some authors have very specific rhythms that they like, and it doesn't matter if it's a tense scene or if it's a slow scene. Some of them just really like a rhythm, and that's the rhythm that they stick with. Do you know what I mean?
00:17:02
Speaker
So I think, um you know, i i have I have suspicions that people can just tell it's yet. I think we'll be able to tell from reading it eventually once we get better at picking this stuff out. But as far as I know, too, it's, again, with the lawsuit thing, how are we confirming this is happening? We, you know, we can have our suspicions, but...
00:17:21
Speaker
It'll be easier to tell, I think, once we start actually having proven cases where it's like, ah, yes, this book was written with the help of AI. And then it's like, OK, well, then we can investigate and start seeing patterns. and Well, as time goes on, theoretically, AI should get smarter.
00:17:35
Speaker
And this could theoretically become less noticeable, right? Like, that's the point of the function of this software. But also, there's the aspect of people make a lot... Like, it's the it's the it's a thing to really grumble about. And people are definitely publishing. I went through, i was, like, thinking, oh, I should find some books that, like don't have any reviews...
00:18:01
Speaker
or don't have very many reviews and try those out and i got down to the kindle books with like fewer than 50 reviews in one category and was like this author has like 40 books up it's like all these books in this whole series they're like you know 15 books in the series were published once a month or even like once a week and it wasn't like reap repackaging and republishing a series it was like brand new it's like yeah Okay, so it's, it is 100% happening.
00:18:32
Speaker
And even not in that context, that is like super obvious. um But I think there are definitely going to be authors caught up like in this particular scenario where the reviewer just didn't understand historical context of language and called out an author and like had nothing to back it up.
00:18:51
Speaker
Yeah. And that, that can be really harmful. Um, like I, I can't imagine how many authors are like, oh, like just being worried about all the possible things.
00:19:04
Speaker
Like what is the consequence? What is my personal liability for book banning? What is my personal liability for being accused of AI? Like there's always conversation about authors being in reader spaces, like stay out of reviews. This is not for you. And readers don't have to like your book.
00:19:19
Speaker
Um, And that is true. And I don't think that authors should get too bent out of shape about a negative review. Right. But if you're looking at a trend, that's going to be like creativity quashing.
00:19:33
Speaker
Right. people who are afraid of being accused, but ah but aren't actually using it. you know Because i we're also becoming more anxious as a society. so Well, and I also want to point out that the way that people used to get feedback about their writing was in writers groups.
00:19:51
Speaker
Like people sat down and read each other's work and they did it collaboratively and you got feedback and you'd make changes and stuff like that. i predict that our anxiety about putting ourselves out there um you know as creative people could very easily, I could totally see someone being like, oh, this section doesn't seem like it's working very well. I'm just going to run it through ai to see if there's any advice on how I could fix it.
00:20:14
Speaker
Stuff like that. um And I think my one of my worries about that is that AI, computer may be able to pull together a lot of stuff from what already exists. But one of the best parts about being in a writer's group, one of the best parts about having somebody else read your work is that um they can sit there and look at the way that you are creative and they can help you become better at your own version of creativity. AI is going to look at how to make something more creative In the bigger grand scheme of writing on the internet.
00:20:47
Speaker
Okay, so my husband um is currently reading the AI Con. And I'm so proud of him because he's he's not in a creative field. And in fact, he's in a field where lots of people use AI as a useful tool to help them in their work.
00:21:04
Speaker
And ah encourage their students to use AI as a useful tool to help them in their work. um And he is like going on rants every day at lunch with his colleagues about how AI does not have a brain and it's not actually thinking and it's not getting smarter.
AI in Business Book Edits
00:21:21
Speaker
um but like it can't tell you how to be more creative it's it's a statistical machine it's like just running statistics it can just yeah it can just like put words together and the way words have been put together before um yeah and so so in my day job but um I edit self-help books and but usually not self-help books I usually edit like how to do business books um And there was one I worked on recently where we went i with this author. i went through so many rounds of edits and his book, ah ah heat the biggest draw of it was like how strong his voice was and how different it was from other business books.
00:22:01
Speaker
And we go through all these edits and he's like, okay, and now I ran it through Gemini and here's what Gemini said. And I'm like, I'm like, Gemini is giving you advice to make your book exactly the same as all the other basic business books out there.
00:22:14
Speaker
So if your whole point is that your brand is different from everybody else's, why are you trying to make your book the same as everybody else's? Like, like what are we doing? What are we doing? Sorry, that's that's my rant about how AI doesn't have a brain.
00:22:28
Speaker
I think what are we doing? We'll make you the same as as what's already out there. Yeah, I mean, that's true. That is what it's doing. So it is an interesting... Well, and I think this is why like i i think...
00:22:39
Speaker
predicting things with how this is going to go and like this whole thing about, oh, we can totally tell it's AI and then predicting what's going to happen with this in a creative space like this. I think it's premature because I think that, sorry, I know the time, Aaron just said the timer went off, that, that um you know,
00:22:54
Speaker
creative people be creating i i don't think that we're like this is an existence they're big i don't think that i think that there's going to be a period where it's going to be heavily utilized and then people are going to be like this is not for me i think it's gonna i don't think that in certain spaces it's going to work there's always going to be people who turn to it as a crutch but i don't think going to start drilling down to I mean, I got it used at the dentist yesterday for like
Future of AI in Creative Fields
00:23:19
Speaker
how much bone damage my teeth have on an individual basis. Oh, that's fun.
00:23:24
Speaker
And I also think this, AI is coming up. There's always a response, right? So there's like an equal and opposite reaction. So the better AI gets, the better AI detection is going to get. you know what I mean? We have to wait and see what's going to happen. More things will develop. So anyway, that's my...
00:23:39
Speaker
i think it's it Okay. Yes. So my timer went off. That's 25 minutes. So we have 30 minutes is our goal. We're wrapping up. It's fine, guys. It's fine. We don't have to get anxious about this.
00:23:50
Speaker
We're rule followers, Erin. We are rule followers. I know. Oh, my gosh. Well, that was a good conversation. i mean, i feel like not a surprising conversation. really like We're like, here we are.
00:24:02
Speaker
yeah i i would be I will be curious to see how this continues to develop, but it's such a big issue that ah ah talking about it is nice. Just musing. Yes.
Episode Conclusion and Future Discussions
00:24:13
Speaker
So many. There are further things to muse about. Maybe we will come back to it later. All right. Well, as we're wrapping up. Oh, I did want to say I thought about this at the beginning before we started recording and then I got sidetracked because my brain is delightful like that.
00:24:27
Speaker
But from last week, the interiority of the love interest question. those lot of those 80s like candlelight ecstasy romances that are single pov we're not looking at a lot of interiority so maybe we could also delve further into that but not today but it might be worth might be worth further consideration yes so if we remember in the meantime we'll have to ingrid will be ingrid will be emceeing next week so maybe she'll bring we'll see what she says Excuse me. I'm going to do what I want.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yes. im I'm looking forward to it. I think this is fun. So catch us next week or, you know, whenever we record another one of these. And in the meantime, you can catch our show notes at smartreport.com slash podcast.
00:25:16
Speaker
You can find us on various socials. I think Holly's the most diligent and goes on Blue Sky Smart Report. And until then, keep it smutty, folks.
00:25:27
Speaker
Keep it smutty, folks. Not a question. Just do it. Just do it.
00:25:32
Speaker
Keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. Smut report!