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Metaromance
75 Plays7 days ago
This month, the Smut Report team is talking Metaromance. Not romances that take place at Facebook, but romance books that are talking about romance books.
To prepare, we all read Unromance by Erin Connor.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Smut Report Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Holly, do you want to summarize it since you inflicted it on us? I feel like you're blaming me for this. It's not like I read it in advance. ah ok No, we all knew what we were getting into. We all knew what we were getting into. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-smut report!
What is Meta-Romance?
00:00:14
Speaker
Hi there! Welcome to the Smut Report. I'm Ingrid. I'm Erin. And I'm Holly. And today we're doing a really fun thing. You might have caught us earlier when Erin explained Spoken Wheel romances, and you are in for a treat today because Holly is going to explain meta-romance.
00:00:33
Speaker
And we are so excited! excited! Are we excited? was very sarcastic about that. Ingrid sounded sincere. Well, I'm just, I like to be supportive.
00:00:44
Speaker
Yeah. So I decided that I wanted to talk about meta romance because i don't like it. But it's a thing that I thought I would like or i kept yeah i read I kept reading them for a long time because I was like, this is a thing that I should like.
00:01:06
Speaker
Right. But why did you think you should like it? Because I'm like, oh, like dense, metatextual, blah, blah. You know, that sounds like me. Yeah. ah You thought, yeah, it was going to be a not to unwind. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So like Possession by A.S. Byatt, which is not a genre romance, I would say.
00:01:28
Speaker
I don't There's a romance in it and has a happy ending, but it's definitely a meta romance. And it's probably one of my favorite books that's literary fiction. but But I, you know, I will say Possession is one of my favorite books.
00:01:42
Speaker
And especially now that meta romance is really, it's really having a moment right now. And so I wanted to dig into it with my smut friends. We are here for you. So we could figure out why I don't like it.
00:01:56
Speaker
Or maybe we could all just talk about why it's the worst. yeah I feel like, well, maybe Ingrid will have something nice to say, but I i actually, having read, have we introduced the book that you made us read this? No, I can do that, because that was my job this time, and I take it very seriously.
00:02:13
Speaker
So Holly decided to explain Meta Romance using Unromance by Erin Connor. And I had not read this book. I had read a review of it by K.J. Charles, who is a romance author.
00:02:28
Speaker
who writes romances that aren't meta, but that are very excellent. And her review made it very clear that this was a meta romance that was like very self-aware, of like very focused on the tropes and within the text calling out the tropes or some of the tropes.
00:02:46
Speaker
So I thought it would be a good way to spark the conversation. And I will say that Unromance hits so many subcategories of meta romance and I hate them all.
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, so meta romance is not romance that takes place on the Facebook campus. That is not what we're talking about. so ah yeah that i mean that We could probably have a whole other podcast about tech bro romance, but maybe that's not.
00:03:17
Speaker
No, thank you. hu Okay, so meta romance is basically romance that books about romance books in a nutshell and it comes in a couple of different flavors so here are some different flavors for things that I count as meta romance and then if you guys have other ideas I'd love for you to chime in so the first are just books about romance writers And generally, it's not just, oh, that happens to be my job. I'm a successful romance writer. It's a romance writer who is struggling with their work, who has writer's block, who is grappling with what it means to be someone who knows so much about love, but doesn't have it in their real life.
00:04:05
Speaker
Like that their job as a romance writer is kind of inherent to
Meta-Romance Tropes and Self-References
00:04:10
Speaker
the plot. Right. ah You guys want examples? Yeah, you could list a couple. Yeah. Okay. So some examples of this, um i like books about romance writers, Talk Bookish to Me by Kate Bromley, Unromance, which we read for today is about a romance writer with writer's block, The Matzo Ball by Gene Meltzer, or The True Love Experiment by Christina Lauren.
00:04:34
Speaker
So books about romance writers. Second category, books about romance readers, but especially ones who use their romance books for inspiration or to like inform their lives.
00:04:47
Speaker
I mean, and so Heart in Hand by Rebel Carter that we all read for Cowboys Week doesn't go into this as fully, but I would call it a meta romance about a romance reader because she talks a lot about her books and how the romance stories in her books aren't matching the romance in her life.
00:05:04
Speaker
Right? Right. Yeah, she does. But then like a big example for the books about romance readers is the Bromance Book Club series by Lisa K. Adams. So books that are self-referential about the tropes of romance, right?
00:05:22
Speaker
Where they say in the text of the book, oh, this is the trope that we are doing in our romance. Yeah. Okay. All right. I see what you're saying.
00:05:33
Speaker
Right. And so like in unromance, they do this a lot. They do it a lot in The True Love Experiment by Christina Lauren. And that that's also about, it's very self-referential about romance hero archetypes.
00:05:47
Speaker
in that book or uh fake flame by adele buck they fake date but they fake date as inspired by a romance book that the hero reads because it's going to help the heroine solve her problem right and the romance book is the frame of reference for the actions in the trope that they then talk about okay so i'm just let me ask a clarifying question so it sounds to me like there's two two different kind of ah groups that we're talking about one where romance novels are an integral part of the plot line so for example the author or book reviewer or whatever you know that's part of who the the character's identity or that it's used as such a substantial tool like a plot tool that it can't be like ignored or glossed over right like it couldn't be swapped out okay yeah got it yep
00:06:37
Speaker
Well, and like not just use as a plot tool, but like used in such a way where the author is drawing the reader's attention to this is the trope we are using. Right. And I'm getting this trope because it's a
Critique of 'Unromance'
00:06:50
Speaker
romance trope.
00:06:50
Speaker
Right. And therefore it is part of this romance So it's like the literary equivalent of the ah breaking the fourth wall or a third wall. Right? Yeah. Like that. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's a breaking the fourth wall like romance trope style.
00:07:04
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So another kind kind of meta romance is, and i I don't think I've seen this in ones that don't also fall into these other categories, but a romance that then is explicitly a defense of romance Where this is usually like characters give monologue about the great work that romance does in people's lives.
00:07:28
Speaker
So for example, in Unromance, she has like a whole monologue about grand gestures and like the work that they do and like why she needs to do one to repair their relationship with Yeah, that was wild.
00:07:40
Speaker
was like, nobody gets that explicit about why they're doing a grand gesture. Anyway, okay. Right, right. and um Or like in the True Love Experiment, the heroine is a romance author, but she gives a big monologue about why romance is a great genre and why it should be.
00:07:57
Speaker
supported recognized Valorite you know like way everybody should think romance is awesome which they should which they should but if I'm reading a romance book I don't want to read a defensive like There's an asterisk. There's an asterisk.
00:08:12
Speaker
Anyway, and then the last one I can think of is like a much smaller thing. And maybe this is just me being angry and nitpicky at this point. But it's when romance books use Romancelandia language, where the characters use Romancelandia language to talk about their romance.
00:08:30
Speaker
So like if a character describes something the love interest is doing as their catnip, it's just like, no, like a real life person doing something isn't catnip. Catnip is something about like media you consume, right?
00:08:44
Speaker
We talk about it in terms of media. And oh gosh, I wish I had put sticky notes in Unromance because they definitely do that in here too. Like, oh, where they're like, oh, forearms, ah forearms.
00:08:56
Speaker
Like, there's a balance here. And also when characters talk about how what they're doing is banter, I'm like, is this meta romance or is this just bad writing? I don't know, but I don't like it.
00:09:10
Speaker
So yeah, that's my like short primer on meta romance and what it is. So I was gonna say as I was reading this book, because it is so very much about being meta romance, like more so than I mean, I haven't read a ton of them because I just I'm over it. I was talking to my...
00:09:32
Speaker
I was talking to my husband last night after I finished and I was like, Holly made us read this dreadful book. And here's the problem. It's like, besides the fact that I just can't deal with characters whose only problem with being together is that they're emotionally stupid.
00:09:47
Speaker
and And I just started talking about all of these and we can get into it either in a discussion of meta romance itself or as we talk about unromance, but like, because like the chapter headings in this book, like,
00:09:58
Speaker
include a trope and a description of the trope that is going to be used in that chapter. And I was just like, I don't like this.
00:10:09
Speaker
Like, it's extremely self-aware, but it's so self-aware that it never leaves the front of your mind. Mm-hmm. so So I had so many more clear thoughts about why this doesn't work for me as I was reading this book than I've ever had before. So I'm excited to talk about it.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. So I have a question for Holly. here's Here's a question. So I've read some romance. I'm thinking of one, thanks to my brain, I can't remember what the title is, but it was... ah With like ah one of those like undercover prince, Christmas, small town romance. you know They hook up.
00:10:46
Speaker
I mean, it had all the tropes too. But the references were to Hallmark movies, not to romances. Now, that's not meta romance by this definition because it's not about romance novels. But I think there has been a lot of ah overlap with people who are really into like Hallmark movies.
00:11:05
Speaker
You know, that they're kind of like a visual romance novel, essentially. And I'm curious if you think that that's ah adjacent or parallel or is there so is there an intersectionality that occurs there?
00:11:20
Speaker
Like, what do we think about that? Because they're if they're referring to the same tropes and they're using the same tools, but it's not the same source, do we think that that's... That's a good question.
00:11:32
Speaker
I don't know where... I must have gotten yeah more sleep than I thought last week. agree. So can I just yeah instigate baby Holly's brain juices? I feel like at a minimum it's adjacent.
00:11:43
Speaker
And the only reason that it wouldn't be considered meta romance in the specific context is because it's not romance novel specific. But maybe the Hallmark romance is and maybe Holly can speak to this as well, because I might not be able to articulate it.
00:11:58
Speaker
The Hallmark romance is its own category of like small town, like city girl goes to the small town meets a lumberjack, learns how to have happiness again. Or, you know, the reverse, like Prince goes to small town meets the small town doctor. Right.
00:12:17
Speaker
learns how to live in real world life thanks to like the magic of Christmas and romance I don't know so it's like a little bit of a different it's a different trope I don't know what's like does it does it make it difference maybe the the difference is what's the point of a meta romance book about books versus the point of a meta romance adjacent book about Twi Hallmark Christmas movies Well, it has to be the source, right? Like my gut instinct was maybe that it was ah that it was more of a Venn diagram because I feel like part of the draw is that if you're a reader who loves romance novels and you're reading about a character who loves romance novels, you would identify with that specific activity. Mm-hmm.
00:13:01
Speaker
And some of the tools are shared,
Mediums of Storytelling: Books vs. Movies
00:13:03
Speaker
but I did not. i I don't watch the Hallmark ones. So when I read that, I was like, OK, oh, that sounds kind of like romance. But I wasn't like, that's me. do you know what I mean?
00:13:12
Speaker
So I just I think it's kind of it was it's more of like an overlap of tools used perhaps was my gut instinct. But that's why I was curious to hear what Holly thought. Yeah, I mean, i think there there is some overlap, but here's how I think of it is I feel like any kind of... Okay, let me back up.
00:13:28
Speaker
So I feel like romance as a genre, especially contemporary romance, tends to be very referential to pop culture in general.
00:13:40
Speaker
And like there's tons of romance retellings. And I feel like pulling on the Hallmark Christmas movies feels to me more like romances that are like, okay, I'm gonna do i'm going to do Pretty in Pink, right?
00:13:57
Speaker
Like I'm going John Hughes, but like make it a little bit less gross. or So are you saying that it's a it's more of a retelling than a meta retelling? Maybe. I don't know. That's just kind of my gut feeling is that maybe not even a straight retelling, but it's like drawing on, it's drawing on something else. Like, I feel like a rom-com book and a rom-com movie While they have a lot of overlap, do have different beats in how they're told.
00:14:26
Speaker
Right. And like a Hallmark Christmas movie and a twee small town Christmas novella have a lot of overlap in the kinds of tropes we see.
00:14:38
Speaker
But they do have different beats and how they're told because the storytelling mediums are different. Right. yeah So I think there is some overlap in the kinds of stuff we might see these Hallmark books, but they don't bother me the same way.
00:14:56
Speaker
It's not like nails on a chalkboard. You know
Character Dynamics in 'Unromance'
00:14:58
Speaker
too much, Holly. What? You know too much. it's Right. I'm just like, oh, I see what you're doing. You're like playing with this other thing that's similar but not quite the same.
00:15:11
Speaker
So that's interesting because I also, I feel the same way. I don't mind the Hallmark Christmas special romances. I mean, they're not my most favorite. not like your favorite, right? But it's fine. But i was also trying to think of what has worked for me. And the only one I could think of will be my recommended read. So I'll maybe save it for later. maybe But it's like extremely humorous. Like it leans so hard into what's happening that it's, I don't know, kind of like Deadpool versus like...
00:15:41
Speaker
ah other fourth wall stuff where they just like turn and they're like what about this and you're like that was weird you know whereas Deadpool is like playing with you like yeah Deadpool is like the whole point is that that's right doing right and so I was wondering like i feel like on romance if we go back to I'm thinking of Alexandra Vosti had done this tweet or thread or something we have we have talked about it before where she was talking about how romantic comedy is defined by three categories right the overall story the themes the the scenes and the lines so there are three spaces where you can have these comedic elements woven through and by that definition a lot more would be a rom-com than what i would consider a rom-com on account of i don't think they're funny
00:16:30
Speaker
So I think in this case, Unromance is kind of meant to be a rom-com, right? Like the premise is absurd. Right. The idea of so maybe maybe let's rewind talk about the summary of this book, actually.
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so should we all do one-sentence summaries? Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Oh, God. All right. So Sawyer and Mason have a meet-cute and a one-night stand and then run into each other again. And Sawyer is a struggling romance writer with writer's block and...
00:17:07
Speaker
Mason is a hot actor who is always falling in love and they decide that they're gonna cure each other and Mason's gonna teach Sawyer how to feel romantic again and Sawyer's gonna teach Mason that actually those butterflies are just nonsense and you can do these like cute things without falling in love.
00:17:31
Speaker
but then they fall in love I don't know like that's my summary like obviously all right this is like okay Ingrid do you want to go next or okay so like yeah i really it's so hard to top Holly's because it's I mean it's because let's be honest here when we're talking about it this is pretty basic guys it's all the tropes so like mm-hmm She's a romance author who is totally sucked into a vortex of writer's block.
00:17:58
Speaker
And he is a little golden retriever but puppy boy who falls in love with his co-stars too easily and then needs to not look like he is one of those people so they strike a deal and then break all the rules natch natch that's what i got for you why would it's like it just is so okay so my one sentence summary is two ding dongs with unresolved emotional issues should go to therapy but don't and therefore do stupid things for like 300 pages there it is all right i feel like we swapped worlds little bit aaron i was like let me tell you all the details we did let me just get to like
00:18:49
Speaker
The meat of how this made me feel. I was. So here's the problem that I had, ah really. i mean, aside from just everything, because like I said, I was telling my husband, I was just like, the only thing keeping these guys apart was their lack of emotional intelligence.
00:19:04
Speaker
Right. They're so it's all about them being up in their feelings such that they are. kind of like rendered incapable of making good choices because they're so busy making excuses about why they're not making good choices because of their whatever trauma that they haven't dealt with it's not even really trauma it's like a breakup and family pressure but whatever So, so that is, I struggle with that anyway, especially in contemporary romance. Like I would rather read a story, even if they, even if Connor had made this more focused on the fact that there's no future because he's going to move to LA. This is set in Chicago. They're both living in Chicago right now.
00:19:42
Speaker
But he's planning to move to l L.A. So there's a time limit. yeah Right. That is a natural problem with natural consequences that they have to figure out how to overcome. But it's not even the primary focus of what they're doing. They're just like all up in their feelings. and'm Like you need to take responsibility for your own self because because.
00:20:02
Speaker
Go off, Aaron. Go off. Sawyer's whole deal is that she's had to push back her delivery date for her manuscript so many times that she can't get any more extensions and she's going to be in breach of contract.
Realism in Romance Novels
00:20:17
Speaker
And... She just has no ability to write. She had finished her manuscript, her last manuscript, and was going through the editing process when her girlfriend dumped her.
00:20:29
Speaker
And like she's never been able to write since her girlfriend dumped her. And she's got this whole thing going on where she sacrificed everything for her career.
00:20:40
Speaker
So she can't lose that too. But she's not really taking care of herself in a way that's making that work for her. You know, just like and, and, and. and you know then we have the scene at the end where we finally talk to the girlfriend and the girlfriend is like that's what you thought the problem was like that's not what was happening at all right and then she's like i so oh dumb mass but you know and then she meets this guy and she's suddenly happy again or in a good place again and so she's able to write ah she's just like not getting it and his thing was even it's just like I fell in love too much and it's like I have to lay low I can't sabotage like these components of my career was like or you could talk to like a PR person and do an interview about how you're just like
00:21:28
Speaker
such a sucker for love or something like there's such a way to spin this it's like not a problem how you're happy for your former co-star who like is now engaged to somebody else and how you are you parted as friends and but just nothing bad birder a bad but if we do it that you guys then there's no plot there is no plot we can't Marie Kahn know this you guys are trying to Marie Kahn we like this come on now I think this is part of the problem with some meta romance, a lot of contemporary romance where it is this interpersonal emotional communication. Like this is the things that you maybe could unpack with a therapist and figure out how to manage yourself in a healthy way.
00:22:14
Speaker
But you're not going to do that because you have to go through this agonizing journey of self-discovery where you self-sabotage until finally you have to go do the grand gesture at the end. Like this is our takeaway.
00:22:26
Speaker
ah No, no. So I have to tell you guys that I, I, this book did inspire me to have a theory about planets were swirling around my head. Math was flashing before my eyes. I was like, okay, I think I might've figured out maybe, maybe I figured out one of the problems with this mess thing that Aaron is speaking of when we've had this problem, because I don't think, cause there are times when there's mess that is the exact same thing where someone's like super emotionally constipated and Aaron's like, I ate that up with a spoon. You know what I mean? So I'm like, what's the difference here?
00:22:54
Speaker
This is what I noticed with this book. And I think it's, I think that it it is exclusively because it was a meta romance. So this is why I'm interested. Oh, interesting. Right. So you know how the structure of this book, as Erin mentioned, was that there's this preface in the chapter that explains basically exactly what's going to happen in that chapter. It's like the tool is is listed explicitly the top of the chapter. um And then the chapter happens, right?
00:23:17
Speaker
So it it ah kind of like spells it out for you, but simultaneously, more subtly, Every single emotional process that's happening with the characters is spelled out.
00:23:28
Speaker
They ruminate like nobody's business. And it occurred to me because I noticed the chapter thing and i was like, man, that's a bold choice. Because usually there's like the golden rule of writing is show don't tell. Right.
00:23:40
Speaker
And she's flat out telling you flat out this is going to happen in this chapter. yeah Right. And I was like, all right, well, this bold choice. Let's see what happens with it. And then I realized that she was doing the same thing, but not explicitly. i mean, it was just happening with all of their emotional processing.
00:23:58
Speaker
And I wondered, because I thought of Erin, and I was like, I wonder if part of the problem with Erin is that it's not that she doesn't like the mess. It's that she doesn't like it when people ruminate like they're beating a dead horse with it.
00:24:11
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? I don't. the character is sitting there telling you. I can't do this because I have this hang up. I think there's an immediate response. Sometimes it's like, well, what will then do something about it? What are you going to do? yeah Do you know I mean? You know what your hang up is.
00:24:25
Speaker
if you Yeah. Then like, let's deal with it. Yeah. So interestingly, i frankly agree with that. And when you're talking about like my hang ups of show, don't tell my best example of a character who is on absolute mess Who I still love is Luke from Boyfriend Material.
00:24:46
Speaker
But the thing that he'll do is he'll be like, I am self-sabotaging right now. This is bad, but I'm going to keep doing it because I am like mess.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I just can't stop right now. Kind of a thing. And I think Alexis Hall is relatively good at that. I think the other issue, maybe Ingrid here, you can tell me what I'm thinking more. But I think the other issue is that i i like, maybe this is because of how I am personally, but I like the characters who do that, like I described with Luke, where they're sort of behaving badly.
00:25:21
Speaker
but like the self-awareness.
Role of Humor in Meta-Romance
00:25:23
Speaker
but it's not the and woe is me. Like he doesn't ever get to a woe is me. I don't like it when it's like my life is so hard and I know that this is my hang up. And then, yeah, like, okay, so do something about it.
00:25:36
Speaker
I don't feel bad for you right now. what it kind of yeah What it kind of felt like to me, and this is why I was kind like, hey, this meta romance was effective for me because I did some learn in here. But what it ended up feeling like to me was that I was like, it's that feeling you get when a friend invites you to brunch or something and you're excited because you're like, oh, we get to catch up. And then you go there and it becomes very clear almost immediately that you weren't invited to catch up because it was like going to be a mutual back and forth.
00:26:02
Speaker
but rather that this person has decided that they're going to hold you hostage as like an unwilling therapist. And yeah they're going to sit there and think that we're on the same page. And the whole time you're like, I'm going to need like three more mimosas to get through this brunch. So I think like, that's what it ends up feeling like when the author just sits there and is like, these are my problems. Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
they I'll list them for you. And then they're reiterated every Galdang chapter. and that's what kind of happened in this book was was that it felt like they were just explaining just over and over and over again. And then the chapter headings, it got to a point where I was just like, great, now we're going to hear about how she can't ever love again and how he falls in love too early using this tool.
00:26:45
Speaker
you know what I mean? Yeah. And I was like, great, let's see how they reiterate the exact same thing using a new tool. Right. Well, and it's funny because already the trope of he falls in love too easily and she can never love again are already tools. Yeah. That we use in romance novels.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yep. They're already there. so anyway... I have to say, I thought it was a valuable experience, Holly, because i i I was like, I think I've cracked the code on Erin because I have been sitting here. So like in my head, it's like Holly likes heroes that like keep a tight leash on their feelings and one tear.
00:27:22
Speaker
But also she likes likes it when they wear like crushed velvet and have lace dripping from their sleeves. So like I have these things where I'm like, Holly will like this. And Erin is, I always am like, she's not going to like this one.
00:27:35
Speaker
but But I couldn't figure out the difference because sometimes there's ah there's somebody and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. And Erin's like, I just love it. And you're like, Why? no. Because they're a hot mess.
00:27:47
Speaker
It's the holding hostage versus willingly be like, the i'm your I'm your unwilling hostage therapist right now versus the, oh, my God, tell me more. Well, or like, felt like that. Because like, we you if you can't identify with it, like, i think there's a huge difference between telling it at someone and being like, I feel this way. I feel like a mess.
00:28:10
Speaker
Have you ever felt that way? And then it pulls it out of you. And you're like, I know what that feels like. That's the difference. That's the importance of show, don't tell, is you have a brunch hostage or you have like, ah thank you for sharing that with me. I know how you feel. Like, very different.
00:28:25
Speaker
Yeah. So anyhow. So anyway. Well, so I don't know if I fully articulated, but I feel like this one was meant to be rom-com because the premise is just kind of absurd. Like they have this plan to fix each other by using romance,
Reader Expectations and Genre Defense
00:28:40
Speaker
right? That's silly.
00:28:41
Speaker
And then there's the situational stuff that happens. The falling down. Throughout, yeah. Ripping the tights. That is also supposed to be comedic elements.
00:28:54
Speaker
And there are some, there's some, I guess it's supposed to be banter. I don't know. It's just like those headings in the chapters just really wrecked for me. That was too much for you. you like them, Holly?
00:29:05
Speaker
Like the falling down on the ice. It could have been like, oh, okay, I see what we're doing here. But because I was already primed for it, was like, okay. Right. You know, and like, oh, they're going to fall.
00:29:16
Speaker
We know this. ah Right. So maybe I wonder if the effectiveness would have been different if if the emotional upheaval had been more of a mystery. If you have everything laid out for you, it's just not I didn't that that was my main issue with it. It wasn't a page turner for me because I was just like, why are you know what's going to happen.
00:29:35
Speaker
there's no mystery here so i think that also removed a lot of the humor like i didn't find it funny i wouldn't have called it a rom-com i suppose you know by this other definition it could have been but the one that i thought of that i was like this one totally worked for me it is just an absolutely absurd romp it's it's lovingly poking fun at yeah romance novels with the characters being in these ridiculous situations and being like for real right now you know and it's fun and it's playful and i think that it's easier to get away with the meta romance stuff if the author just goes for it in a completely unhinged way as opposed to this like yeah oh we're so cute and playful way i i don't tend to like those i'm not interested in those
00:30:23
Speaker
Which is funny, Erin, because the recommendation that I have is also like Monty Python-esque in its absurdity. You know? ah So, yeah. I find that interesting.
00:30:34
Speaker
So we've talked a little bit about this book. We've talked like about what MetaRomance is. so Can we talk about oh go ahead yeah like what what works and doesn't work about MetaRomance? Where are we going to go? for I was like...
00:30:49
Speaker
Where are we going to from here? That's the thing like, I guess part of the problem is like there are different brands of meta romance. Right. And like unromance is perhaps a standout because it does all of them.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah. Right. But I feel like most books don't. Most books are kind of. So in the context of like when you were talking about the different varieties that we could choose from. I would say when I'm talking about I don't really want to read it, I'm not going to pick it up if I read a blurb like this. It's going to be the books about romance writers, especially, especially with the driven by writer's block. Like, it just I know.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah. Even some of the romance readers, like I enjoyed the Bromance Book Club, but when you were talking about, i feel like the romance reader speak is harder to tell, like you're not going to know it's there from the blurb, but for the stuff that is like, if it's just a one drop in of like, oh, this trope or a drop of I'm reading my romance novels.
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah, that doesn't tend to distract me because I find it very like when I was reading on romance, I was extremely distracted. So I would like to talk about how it brings all this romance stuff to the forefront of the narrative. And that I feel like detracts from what the book is actually like the narrative itself. But we can get there. But like, I'm not bothered by those. I can be like, that's cute. Or whatever by those little drop ins.
00:32:15
Speaker
It's when it's like a really heavy plot thing that it gets. I feel like it gets in the way. Yeah, well, and I think there are a lot of books that do one off drop ins, right? So like the Duke who didn't by Courtney Milan has a scene where the hero and the heroine are traveling, and they end up having to spend a night in the inn.
00:32:36
Speaker
And they go and the innkeeper's like, Alright, let me get you set up two rooms. And the heroine's like, No, you only have one room of And he's like, uh, and she's like, you only have one room ah available.
00:32:55
Speaker
And he's like, okay, like, there's only one bed for you guys. Right. And I'm like, okay, that's I see what you're doing. But if it's, it's only one scene.
00:33:08
Speaker
I'm like, all right, it's funny. Like, we can do a funny thing sometimes. But like, on the other hand, like there are these one-offs. So in Ever After Always by Chloe Lees, there's a scene where this is in the Bergman Brothers series, but it's the one about the sister.
00:33:25
Speaker
But like all her brothers are like at the beach and they're reading romance novels and they're talking to the husband and saying, you know, like we we've learned a lot from these and you can learn a lot about being like a good partner and like emotional support and blah, blah, blah.
00:33:41
Speaker
And they're reading Lisa Klaipas historicals. And I'm like, I don't, I don't think you want to be taking like relationship lessons from Derek Craven. Yeah.
00:33:55
Speaker
right and this was also just a small scene but i'm like whoa that just like really pulled me out of this book yeah you know so difference it i think because it's so specific or because they're saying is it that it's so so specific or is that it's that they're explaining how helpful yeah it is to read romance so that almost goes into the They're telling you. and Defensive romance. Yeah. And telling.
00:34:20
Speaker
Yes. And it was probably written to be a wink at the reader. Like, yeah, these guys see the readers, too. But maybe I don't like meta romance because so often feel like it's very ham handed in its executions.
00:34:35
Speaker
it's very just like pulls you out yeah that it pulls me out and it's very very telly about it yeah and and that it's almost like a crutch that the author is you like instead of that it's like i don't have to do the work to make this scene ah hit hit the emotional beats if i use this shorthand that my readers will understand That's interesting.
00:35:00
Speaker
Maybe. I don't know. I'm just spitballing. That's something i could see that literally just occurs me right now. That does make sense. for And I think that actually ties really well into how Aaron and I, both of our examples, were kind of like, if you're going to do it and it's going to be over, you need to do something totally different or like really playful with it.
00:35:18
Speaker
I mean, like I said, there's that show don't tell part of it. But then if you take a step back and look at that bigger, I think it's you, you want to be in on the joke, but not preached to, right? You want it to be like, oh, I see what you did there. Like the Courtney Milan example, it's a perfect example of, you know, like nudge, nudge, but it's just a little nudge, nudge. It's like,
00:35:36
Speaker
When you meet someone and you realize you both read romance novels and you're kind of tiptoeing around it, it's that kind of feeling. not I read romance novels. I like monster wieners. Like, there's a huge difference between the two approaches. You want it to be kind of like, hey there, rarera Courtney Milan. Like...
00:35:53
Speaker
That kind of thing. Whereas I think with this one, there it was, i think it was a clever idea, like to take the book, structure it with all the tropes, have her be an author. But if if there wasn't any big twist, so it ended up being like, well, thank you for telling. I mean, you could have just given me an outline and it would have been the exact same, you know, because there wasn't anything that was a big shift or like, ah well, that was different or, huh, well, that's an interesting take.
00:36:20
Speaker
It was too methodical for me. And so it just pulled me right out. And you can't have the twist. It's not like you could have the black moment be the twist either because it's supposed to be the twist.
Writing about Writers in Romance
00:36:30
Speaker
yeah You know what I mean? And also by the time I got, you know, I don't care anymore because I need to be invested. And I i was talked to the whole time instead of brought into it. And so anyway, I think when I'm looking at successful meta romance, it's either you got to do something with it that is so obviously overt, we're all in on the joke.
00:36:49
Speaker
And that's like the caricature-ish ones or it's a nudge nudge. But if you just sit there and spell it out, it's an outline and I don't care about that. you know what i mean? Yeah. So I was also, tell me what you think of this that I thought while reading on romance.
00:37:03
Speaker
Because we're dealing with a romance writer writing a book about a romance writer who's like going through all the things. Mm-hmm.
00:37:14
Speaker
So while Sawyer is like, you just don't understand. This is how my job is. Or there's a moment where they're talking about how well constructed the narrative is in, I don't remember if it was one of the like the shows that What's His Face was doing or something that she had written, but like,
00:37:37
Speaker
It got to the point where it felt like a little bit self-aggrandizing in terms of like, oh I'm a romance author. Look at how hard this is.
00:37:49
Speaker
I'm a romance author. Look at how my creative flow is and I just can't control it. Or it was that was distracting also.
00:38:01
Speaker
Kind of like when you read a rock and roll romance and they're like, the song was so good it made me cry. But then they put the lyrics in and you're like, but it's not that good. You know, kind of like that. But it never should. Right. Or, and I didn't talk about this earlier, but like my biggest pet peeve is when they include passages of the romance that the romance author is writing. And it's always historical And like the author doesn't write historical, like the author of the larger book, the meta book does not write historicals or probably read them because they're like, they're like, this is my historical romance. It's like so cutting edge and breaking boundaries. I'm like, this is some asinine bullshit.
00:38:39
Speaker
Well, because it's like mini chapters smattered throughout. Yeah. and This is so not to call it out, but like this is what the Bromance Book Club does. It's like little mini chapters peppered throughout the rest of the story that's supposed to mirror the rest of the story.
00:38:56
Speaker
But it's not actually ah fully realized book. Right. It's never actually. No, it's just and it's just like, here's the highlight scenes.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and she does exactly she does call that out in the book where, you know, she's talking about how, oh, yeah, it's like the the equivalent of the training montage from like a sports movie, but it's the writing version of it. She does call that out. So she is poking fun at it. And I will say this.
00:39:23
Speaker
I will say this. I actually thought the description of writer's block. And like clinging to this is just how I have to do it. i thought that was really realistic, actually.
00:39:34
Speaker
So I that was my major was creative writing. So I went to college with a bunch of writers and like every single professor is is like, don't think that you have to drink or do drugs to write.
00:39:46
Speaker
That's a bad idea. or they'll be like, don't think you have to do it this specific way. If you you know that's a bad idea. but do you know what all those young writers were doing?
00:39:58
Speaker
i i have to write at 11 o'clock at night or I can't write all of them. And all of them would play it off like, that i don't I don't need to do anything to write. Everybody, every single one had a thing that they did
Relationship Dynamics in Meta-Romance
00:40:08
Speaker
and they insisted that they had to cling to it. It's just this person is in their mid-20s and they're trying to figure how to write and they're terrified they're going to lose it.
00:40:16
Speaker
and And the writer's block thing, like, I completely get it. Like I said, i but i mean i went to school for it, and I used to write. i i have had probably 10 years of writer's block now, and um i have actually talked about it in therapy and have literally the exact same conversation with my therapist. Like, well, maybe I just can't write anymore. Maybe it's just gone.
00:40:35
Speaker
Maybe it was only meant to write for a short period of time. So like when you're talking talking about that, it kind of makes me laugh because I'm just like, yeah, I i do get it. But it's kind of like, are you listening to yourself right now? Because I'm pretty sure my therapist was saying the same thing when I was talking.
00:40:47
Speaker
I was listening to myself. I know I sounded ridiculous, but it's kind of a thing. Right. Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. But when you're talking about this is one of those spaces where.
00:41:00
Speaker
maybe one of the only spaces where you can write about your own job right right like there are some like romantic suspense authors um like what was her name like juna rushed in Yes, Juno Russian, thank you, Holly, who, like, she used to work in espionage of some kind.
00:41:19
Speaker
And, you know, then writes romantic suspense. Or Tal Bauer also, I think, he like, he has ah background in at least law enforcement. And, you know, so his his suspenses are, okay, fine. But, like, it's not the same as, like, the forensic anthropologist who ended up writing what became Bones.
00:41:42
Speaker
Right. Like there's enough disconnect between the job and the writing. Right. does There's not like a straight line. Right. And so this is like a straight line. I'm not like, is there another job that would do the same thing? Like ah maybe a screenwriter a movie or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:00
Speaker
Okay. But here's the thing about like books about writing books. They happen. They're also very common in lit fic. right? And although usually in lit fic, it's like the young white man yeah wrote his masterpiece and now can't write a follow up.
00:42:16
Speaker
But they're insufferable to read. so They are insufferable. You're right. so insufferable to read. And i work as an editor in nonfiction, but in like self-help and memoir.
00:42:28
Speaker
And a shocking number of authors who are trying to write a self-help book or a memoir Like to do the same thing where they talk about their process of writing the book in the book.
00:42:40
Speaker
And it's insufferable every time. As an example. And it's insufferable there too. And like the executive editor the company I work for is just like, I'm glad you're processing this, authors, but it is boring to read about and it does not serve the reader It's interesting to you. but And that's why I brought up the rock and roll thing, because I feel like it's just one of those things where I i feel like it's better. If there isn't an automatic, what do they call it when you go to like a concert and there's like a mosh pit, but then there's like the barrier. to know i'm talking about?
00:43:09
Speaker
Is there a name for it? I don't know. I don't i don't go to mosh. Well, I don't know. I'm not that cool. I don't go to concerts. And if I did go to a concert, it would be the kind where you sit down quietly and hold a bulletin. It would not be the kind where you're jumping around with a mosh pit. The point is, is that the illustration I'm trying to make is that if there isn't an automatic barrier, and I don't mean just a little wall, I mean like a whole section of
Challenges of Meta-Romance Narratives
00:43:32
Speaker
mystery. There has to be some whole river or wall of mystery between the activity that's being described and the reader reading it. Because the problem is, is when you remove that, you put the reader in a position where they actually, they don't, they can't just judge the interaction or what's happening with the character. They have to judge the product of that as well.
00:43:53
Speaker
And it takes you out of the book. So the rock star who has the song, I don't want to have to judge whether or not I actually think that song is good. That's not the point. The point is if the characters and the people who like in the book think the song is good.
00:44:06
Speaker
So don't put me in a position where I have to judge that. And unfortunately, i think when we're talking about books about writers, right, characters that are writing, it's very difficult because they're writing about writing. It's hard.
00:44:17
Speaker
Where do you put that barrier or mystery? Yeah. It might be easier like, know, this is dual POV, but would it be different if it were single POV and the character who was the writer was not the one speaking?
00:44:28
Speaker
I think that would create enough of a barrier where it would be believable. Right. Like, would this book work, even keeping in all the tropes, all of it if it were only Mason's point of view?
00:44:38
Speaker
Yes. I mean, I think it would be completely different. Yes. Because it would be describing, it would create enough of a barrier between the activity. The reader would not be in a position to judge. It would be the reader doing Mason's response to Sawyer's experience. Yes.
00:44:54
Speaker
And that would make a difference. That would make a difference. Because that is, Ingrid, I think you're spot on. that I have my moments. Because you know that the writer in the book is being written by ah a writer who's it in the same position.
00:45:08
Speaker
Maybe this writer's never had writer's block. Maybe this writer is just like punching this out and just having a great time and going through edits, no problem, and not having the emotional turmoil or making ridiculous decisions about romance by living through tropes.
00:45:23
Speaker
feel like you don't write a book like this about a a writer going through writer's block unless you're like having some feelings about listen I really hope i was kind of I was like I hope that they have had writer's block and I hope that that writer's block was for longer than two months but you know that's just my personal feeling that's something that I'll have to discuss with my therapist later well this character's writer's block was for two years so but okay so I do want to ask though how you guys feel about the I'm gonna pause the story to monologue about how great romance novels are
00:45:57
Speaker
And if you have feelings about that, it it doesn't really happen in this book. I it's again, it comes down to the show. Don't tell for me. Okay. You can do the exact same thing without monologuing on it. If you want to do that, then that's a complete, like write an article.
00:46:10
Speaker
I feel like I read one at one point where she's a fan of romance novels and he ends up reading one, but it's kind of very much just like, it's in the same vein as like, Oh, he remembered my favorite kind of coffee. You know what I mean? Or like he did, it was more of like a gesture and,
00:46:26
Speaker
The way it was depicted served several purposes. One, it was showing that he was, but like, if she cared about it, he cared about it. i think it was I think it was actually a shifter one, too, which might have made it more impactful because the second thing that it did was it was, like, illustrating that he cared more about...
00:46:44
Speaker
being a whole person than how his masculinity was being put out into the world. Does that make sense? Because it was so easy for him to just be like, oh, you like that book?
00:46:57
Speaker
What do you like about it? Oh, I like this. well it's a romance. And then he just reads it. There's no barrier there. He's just like, okay, if you like it, sounds good. Like he trusted her judgment. He he thought He was interested in her hobby. So it became kind of like a very quick and dirty tool that just kind of shared it. So I feel like that illustrates enough about romance. And then subsequently, you know, he he took notes on it, right? So he was like, oh, yeah, well, I got it from that romance.
00:47:22
Speaker
So it's one example where there was no need for her to be like, well, I was very interested in how this romance novel improved our communication skills. And you know what I mean? There was no and there was no editorializing.
00:47:34
Speaker
It was shown and it was clear and I was in on it and I didn't feel like I needed to be explained to. I'm not sure that it's, and I'm sure there are examples where it is effective. I don't think it's the most effective tool.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I guess I feel like there's also like two different things that happen with the I'm going to defend romance novels. Because the example you talked about is this romance novel improved our communication skills, right? Like romance novels is manuals that help me in my everyday life do better at relationships.
00:48:03
Speaker
And then there's also the no romance is a genre that has value in and of itself. Not because it helps me do better relationships, but because love is a fundamental part of being human.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yes. Right? It's a huge part of the human experience, yeah. It's a huge part of the human experience. And like, well, I kind of have problems with the first one because I'm like, what book are you reading? That this is a good idea? Right? But I also do acknowledge that there are a lot of romances out there that are all about, like, let's model how to be a good relationship. like, all right, well, if you only read those, then like, maybe they can't be relationship-made. manuals but that sounds like pretty boring way to live your life we want ones where she accidentally shoots them in a duel and then they fall in love that's what we're looking for that's what we're looking for but not in real life yeah right but the ones where it's like romance books are valuable because they're about a central part of the human experience i'm like i'm like who who are you trying to convince here right i'm already reading a romance right your romance yeah yeah and
00:49:06
Speaker
and maybe the problem is that like we're not the audience yeah we might be a little too too too wrinkled in this genre right well that sort of that's fair right i feel like that's exactly it and we're just not the audience we read to we're too immersed in the genre and there are people who are just coming to the genre who might like that like yeah get kind of a moment but how big is that audience really like i think that's a question of like what actually is the market here and does that like yes there are people who are going to be the audience for that but most romance readers are not that most of us have been reading for a long time
00:49:49
Speaker
well yeah of our pool anyway here's the question though it's like yes most romance readers are not that but those Berkeley trade paperbacks that make it into other parts of the bookstore they get picked up by other people like the Jasmine Guillory books right that get picked up by Oprah how many non-romance readers read those books I don't read romance you just did right right Yeah, no, that's a good point. That's a good point.
00:50:16
Speaker
So I don't know. And I think like most of those books that are marketed for outside of the genre crossover appeal, I'm like i like, this is not that interesting.
00:50:27
Speaker
That's fair. I guess I just, are those readers who are going to be surprise crossover readers going to appreciate that level of overtness themselves? Yeah, I don't know. It seems a very niche group of people who are going to be like,
00:50:43
Speaker
Yes, this is, I, yes. Because I feel like the people who are like, I don't read romance, aren't going to suddenly be like, oh, I see value in romance after, listen like, reading the spiel in the bromance book club about how valuable romance is, you know?
00:51:01
Speaker
Well, you know, on the flip side, though, I'm thinking about this more broadly here. And I will say this. So here, I guess here's here's a distinction. I've read parts where a character defends their career, interest, hobby, and explains why it matters, right?
00:51:18
Speaker
And i actually find that really enriching. So I find it tells says a lot about the character. it makes me think about things differently. And I can find a lot of value in that. Now, I think there's a big difference between the character expressing it because that tells me about the character. It's that distance again. Remember what I'm talking about?
00:51:35
Speaker
Versus the author just putting it in there. That's an execution difference. if the character is a romance author right who is the stand-in for the author, then...
00:51:46
Speaker
Like your barrier question is it. The barrier is too small. Whereas would it be different, for example, if the hero was defending her career to someone else? Is that enough of a barrier?
00:51:57
Speaker
Because again, for me, the distinction here is you never want to put the reader in a position where they have to judge something separately from the book because it's going to pull them out of it so like if you're having them judge your the author's position on the validity of romance well that's not part of the book you pulled you just pulled your reader out you just lost them but if you can integrate it into the narrative in a way where it kind of like fleshes out that character's backstory or their complications their fears their dreams like
00:52:28
Speaker
Then all of a sudden it becomes something that adds dynamic oomph, like something you can really bite into into the plot and the character. And that's different. It's not the same. So I guess that's that's some nuance that I that am thinking of right now.
00:52:42
Speaker
So useful to have you around to explain. I just love this stuff. I think it's so much fun to pick apart. choices. I just, it just, look the choices authors make because
Recommended Meta-Romance Reads
00:52:52
Speaker
it's hard. You know what I mean? It is hard. And I have so much respect for authors and that's, you know, it's easy to just say you don't like something, but I like how we do it where we try it. I mean, this is just shameless shout out. Hey, look, I'm breaking the fourth wall.
00:53:04
Speaker
I like how while we do it where we sit there and really think about the choices, you know? So it's more than just like, well, I didn't like that book. Okay. That's really helpful. Thank you. Maybe we start there. You're like, defend your stance.
00:53:19
Speaker
on guard yeah so i went i do want to hear your rex okay ingrid you're so excited i never can remember this stuff okay but i remembered one and then i was like surely i'm remembering this incorrectly surely it's not this applicable and i was correct a little bit because the one that i read was not about writing but i looked and the prequel is so it's by cassandra gannon And the first book, it's a two book series. The first one is called Not Another Vampire Book.
00:53:49
Speaker
And ah let me just read the first two sentences and you'll understand what I'm talking about. What's worse than editing the stupidest romance novel ever written? Getting stuck inside it. Right. And then the second one, the one that I read was kind of it was adjacent a little bit. Anyway, the way that she writes, she's very meta.
00:54:09
Speaker
And the way that she does it is how we talked about before, where it is Monty Python. It is it is so ridiculous that even though you're like, oh, it's that trope or it's that device or it's that tool.
00:54:21
Speaker
It's like. exaggerated to the point of absolute absurdity and it's really funny. I think you probably have to be in the right mood for it because it is so ridiculous but I just I mean you know how I can't remember anything and this opening scene where this vampire is like complaining about life to this woman who she well she's about to get fired but she's trying to be an actress and nothing's working out and she's shelving things in a grocery store and this guy won't leave her alone and her manager's like you need to get rid of your friend and she's like I don't even fucking know this guy and he's sitting there like excellent advice Jane Squire that's her name like it's so funny and then he rescues her from the drudgery of her life and he's the bad guy in the first book so it's even funnier but they I mean they take every trope
00:55:06
Speaker
and maximize the absurdity and it's pretty funny I laughed out loud multiple times I have and one of those books, I think. When you read it, was like, oh, this actually looks kind of familiar. think I've got one of them on my actually.
00:55:23
Speaker
But mine is very similar. It's Bro and the Beast by Elsie Davis. And it's this guy who's like a frat bro, because for some reason I just really enjoy reading about ridiculous frat bros.
00:55:40
Speaker
It's... is like having a fight with his yeah i know right he's having a fight with his nerdy brother who likes to read romance novels and so he takes his brother's romance novel after his brother storms off to try and get on the same page because he does love it they're twins you know like College is different because he bulked up and joined a frat and it's like a total bro and his brother is like the scrawny gay nerd.
00:56:08
Speaker
But like they're still brothers. So he starts reading this book and he gets really sucked into it. So he's late for his frat meeting or whatever. And he ends up getting in a car accident and transported to like 1980s Omegaverse, Texas.
00:56:22
Speaker
And in the book, the Omega is a woman, right? And there's like the evil other shifter group, like they're both wolves. So he's like, why did I have to be the girl in the book?
00:56:35
Speaker
And then he's like... I'm a wolf and I can't even shift like this is bullshit. It's just like so ridiculous.
00:56:46
Speaker
So it's a little bit of adventure like I have to get back home and a lot of just like if I had to be in a book why this one you know. And it's very playful and fun.
00:56:57
Speaker
And it's written, it's like, but he wrote it as like a serialized five book story and then added on the three others for the brother after. And the first five featuring this guy and like the original alpha wolf guy.
00:57:11
Speaker
it's it's just so funny it's so funny sorry there's a moment where he's like it's in the alpha's like pov and the frat bro is like being snotty and then burps because he was drinking so much beer at the pub or whatever and the alpha's like have you ever seen such a beautiful creature like what you know because it's like fated mates to the max it's like being gross it's just like he's so beautiful i've never seen anyone more beautiful it's so funny so yeah it's the first time in serialized it's very very much capers and silliness it's fun nice
00:57:58
Speaker
All right, Holly, bring us home. Have you got something that's not okay absurd humor? Okay, so i have i have I do have one absurd one. i think it's less absurd than either of yours. So it's called The Love of My Afterlife by Christy Greenwood.
00:58:12
Speaker
And in this one, the heroine, she's like a sad, lonely misanthrope. And she dies. She like, you know, like chokes on a sandwich eating alone in her apartment. She has basically like the saddest, loneliest death.
00:58:27
Speaker
So she goes to the afterlife. And her her afterlife caseworker is real bored and also really likes romance novels. And so her afterlife caseworker is like, you know what? I'm going to send you back to being alive.
00:58:45
Speaker
And you have 10 days to find your soulmate. And here's your soulmate. And I love romance books. And this is going to be a romance for the ages series. Go.
00:58:56
Speaker
And so it is a meta romance, but there's a bit of a remove because the person who is like into romance novels and talking about the tropes and using it is a secondary character. See it?
00:59:10
Speaker
who who sets the whole thing in motion, but isn't there in the day. and I think that's different. i think we've cracked the I think we've cracked the code here. Yeah, it's really fun. It's
Elements Enhancing Meta-Romance
00:59:20
Speaker
really absurd. And the heroine is, it's very much, a you know, one of these like single POV heroine's journeys because she has to learn how to like not be a sad my and misanthrope and like live her life and have friends and all of these other things.
00:59:34
Speaker
But the romance is pretty good also. And of course she doesn't fall for the guy who's meant to be her soulmate. She falls for the like, her grumpy neighbor. Oh, intriguing. You know, who's helping her.
00:59:45
Speaker
Of course, yeah of course. Of course. But then, so another one where the meta romance is a little smaller is called The Indomitable Mr. Temple by Linda Forbes.
00:59:55
Speaker
And in this one, the heroine owns a romance bookstore, right? And so she's also like really active in the romance space and reads a lot. But I think I liked it because the heroine engages with romance the way I engage with romance.
01:00:10
Speaker
Like she knows the tropes and she loves the books, but she's not pulling them into her life. Right. But she's still talking about them. And there's this one scene where she and the hero and go to this like art installation.
01:00:25
Speaker
And it's an erotic experience. I think it's kind of sexy art. And she's like starting to feel some feelings. And she's just like, wow, this is really uncomfortable for me. Because...
01:00:35
Speaker
I can talk about this stuff in romance books. And like, if somebody comes to me, and is like, please tell me about gargoyles with two penises, I can do that. Right. And I can talk about how in
Cultural Relevance and Reader Demographics
01:00:50
Speaker
this book, the pegging scene, really just like brings these characters together and shows the reader that their happily ever after is cemented.
01:01:01
Speaker
But having those feelings for myself is really hard and scary. And so it was kind of like a different way than we normally see it, that characters are using romance books to process what's going on with them. See, that self-awareness.
01:01:13
Speaker
It's self-awareness. Yeah. I love that. You can be... I mean, also in that the heroine's older. She's like 50. Maybe she's in her forty s Right? She's older. And so there's also not this like... The angst.
01:01:25
Speaker
Irritating like 26 year old Can I just say one more thing About Unromance How does this 26 year old Know every beat to every romcom that we watched in high school that's what i was oh that came out when we were in high school hollywood that was a that was a good catch no she seemed so young and there were so many things where it's like okay i guess this is possible like she's written three books and she's living on her advances and royalties and like contracts and she's a new york times bestseller but they're in new york times bestselling romance authors who don't do that as their only job
01:02:05
Speaker
Because it doesn't actually pay very much. Okay, but Taylor Swift and call and student loans guys, so there was that little bit of believability, right? So there was that. You know, you just got to suspend the disbelief.
01:02:19
Speaker
Both of them are like doing deep cuts of how to lose a guy in 10 days. Oh, yeah. That's so far into our generation. Yeah. I'm like, I know what this is because this movie came out when I was 16 and so I saw it more than once. yeah and And 10 Things I Hate About You is both of their favorite rom-com.
01:02:38
Speaker
That's even older. Well, I mean, 10 Things I Hate About You is like legitimately a great movie. But like I'm like, why aren't you using like um to All the Boys I Love Before as your point of reference?
01:02:51
Speaker
I can't even list ones that would have been better because I feel like that's just a That's a black hole in my timeline. Yeah, I was having children at that point. So i don't. Sorry. Yeah, I know. I mean, that's the only one I know about. Well, yeah, I mean, but it was big and it like, you know, I feel like if Ingrid, if we asked our cousin who was 13 years younger than me, mean, we've done this a few times where where we've asked her like, well, what about this? And she's like, I don't I don't know what you're talking about.
01:03:22
Speaker
you know and same family but she's just 13 years younger but the same thing just yeah not the same yeah good times anyway ourselves a little bit more anyway this author came herself because these characters are too young for their cultural references i that was amazing that was a big thing about this book too and that's one thing that i think i'm having a harder and harder time with as we get older is when You know, I feel like they're going through some natural young growth things.
01:03:51
Speaker
Yeah. You know, 20 year olds are kind of they're just going to do this weird fumbling thing where they don't know what they're doing. And you're like, there's a very easy way to process this in a better way. They're just not going to listen.
01:04:04
Speaker
So I have to let go of that a little bit. i'm I guess I'm not there and anymore. Well, you know, and we'll have to see. i i One of my predictions is that we're going to see more and more books with mature characters as the readership kind of flexes and shifts and grows. Because I think that there does come a point where you're maybe not so interested in and reading, you know, exclusively books where it's young 20-something people getting themselves into very avoidable situations. But... um but But we'll see. it's They're fun. and mean, don't get me wrong. Sometimes they're really fun. Because like I said, people tell you when you get older that they still feel like they're in their 20s, when they're in their 70s and stuff. And so it's not hard to read a book about your because the 20-year-old you is still in there.
01:04:47
Speaker
But you know there's also older ones in there that are like, ooh. File your taxes, guys. but Anyway.
01:04:56
Speaker
oh man.
Wrap-up and Farewell
01:04:58
Speaker
um On that note, file your taxes, friends. Oh, can I give a shout out to another Meta Romance that's actually really fun? yeah It is a movie.
01:05:08
Speaker
It is the Lost City with Sandra Bullock. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I feel like it was kind of a love letter to the genre and it was very fun to watch. All right. I'll have to check that one Even if you don't want to read one, you could probably have a good time watching.
01:05:23
Speaker
ah fair Yes. Lost city was really fun. And feel like if we're going movies like the original Meta Romance movie, like Romancing the Stone, also...
01:05:34
Speaker
Also, it's fun. It's fun. But this is what i'm what I was saying earlier about like crossing mediums, like writing a movie about a writer struggling. Guys, that's another way of creating distance. We've cracked the freaking code here.
01:05:50
Speaker
Just all authors partake of our podcast. I know. i know. I'm sure. I'm sure that I'm sure that people. authors who do this professionally would listen to this and be like you need to shut your trap right now you have no idea how hard this is and I would have to say that yes you're correct yeah that's fair that's fair I'm sorry we we can sit here and talk about it like very confidently because we don't do it but anyway well Aaron does but that's all right well I mean yeah and I don't. Erin has.
01:06:16
Speaker
I also have writer's block for the past and two years. and More than, i think. Whatever. Have you tried coercing some kind of romance into your life? Perhaps see if your husband wants to.
01:06:28
Speaker
Maybe that's what I'm missing. Maybe you need to convince. Maybe you need to get your husband to fake the news. There you go. Yeah. It'll be a ton deal. I think he'd really go for Yeah, that seems like something that he would be really into. Really enjoy.
01:06:42
Speaker
All right. Anyway. Oh, man. On that note, thanks for listening. Show notes, as always, at smutreport.com slash podcast. If you like our content, rate, review, follow us on the podcatcher of your choice.
01:06:56
Speaker
And until then, keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!