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Found Family and Forced Family
63 Plays3 days ago
In honor of Thanksgiving, we're talking about family in romance book today: the families we leave behind, the families we reconcile with, and the families we make ourselves.
Full show notes (which this month is a long list of all the books we mentioned) at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
I love when you guys get so literal. It's so fun for me to watch because I can see it coming. I'm like, they're not going to like that question because it's too literal. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is not a yes, no question.
00:00:13
Speaker
That's my report.
Introduction to Smut Report Podcast
00:00:17
Speaker
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Smut Report podcast. We are the Smut Report. And ah today is a long form podcast, which means we are not setting a timer and we maybe have a plan for our conversation. what i know crazy fans anyway i'm holly i'm ingrid i'm aaron and because it's almost thanksgiving at the most family oriented of holidays because there are no gifts to be had we are talking about found family and forced family so let's start by talking about these terms i'm gonna like pass it over to aaron who's gonna define forced family and then we'll define found family because i think she made up the term so i yeah i have forced Yeah. Forced
Understanding 'Forced Family' in Literature
00:01:05
Speaker
family is I think I made it up. I don't think I've heard it anywhere before. But what I was thinking when I initially started noodling about this years ago and I started writing a you know ranty hot take that I never finished or posted. Yeah.
00:01:21
Speaker
but Was those family interactions represented in books in particular, because this is a book podcast, right? Where the main character involved in the issue is forced either by their partner or by a relative, like a sibling or maybe a parent, depending on where the conflict is. to reconcile or pushed into reconciling with another relative like against their wishes. And I so for example, I will use the example that I read like five years ago, and I'm still mad about it. ah
00:02:03
Speaker
I read ah Single by R.J. Scott. And in the book, it's about single dads. This dad
Exploring Forced Family Dynamics Through Examples
00:02:11
Speaker
ah was going to adopt a baby or have a baby by a surrogate, whatever.
00:02:16
Speaker
And his partner peaced out, but he still has the baby and you know falls in love with the hunky neighbor, who I think is a firefighter. Because like, yeah. And obviously, obviously. And ah his sister is the one who comes in and is like, well, now you have a child and your child deserves a grandma. So you have to reconcile with mom. And I don't remember exactly what the conflict was, but I think it had to do with like her church didn't accept queer people. And so she said he was bad and he was like, fine, I'm out, you know.
00:02:53
Speaker
um And so he has a legitimate reason for not wanting to talk to his mom or have her in his life. And his sister pushes and pushes and pushes. And eventually they do end up in the same room and end up reconciling. And I was just like so infuriated by the the fact that this is like a forced issue and that it is presented as a good thing.
00:03:12
Speaker
but So that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about forced family. Like it is your actual family of origin and you have a con or you the character has a conflict and is forced by another relative or their new partner who thinks they know better to try to reconcile ah against their wishes.
00:03:33
Speaker
And I think where the problem for you comes up is when that reconciliation is then presented as a win. Yes, we're doing it h ga forever. Or is it even that, like, say, a partner tries to push a reconciliation and it goes badly? Right. I think either way, I think I've actually read one. I can't remember this one, but it was one.
00:03:57
Speaker
There have probably been several actually where a partner has tried to push a reconciliation because, and you see this a lot in like, you know, advice columns or whatever. The partner did not grow up in the same relationship.
00:04:09
Speaker
dysfunctional or toxic environment and legitimately cannot understand why this yeah other character, why their partner would not want to to fix the problem if they were given the opportunity to do so. Or maybe the the partner has a deceased parent and wishes they could have their parent back.
00:04:28
Speaker
And there I've definitely read some books where they go and like try to have tea or something and the they leave and the partner's like, you are right. I'm sorry.
00:04:39
Speaker
You know, and I do like that. I appreciate that because I can see where the character who wants the reconciliation, who has this vision, where they're coming from and why they don't see until they are forced to see. Right. And I can see how also the partner who doesn't want to do the reconciliation.
00:04:57
Speaker
would be willing to put themselves out there for their partner one time, even though it's very uncomfortable. I think depending on what the initial problem was. So this is very interesting to me because if we're talking about a framework of a happy ending,
00:05:13
Speaker
that you find more acceptable the happy endings where the reconciliation with an estranged parent does not happen rather than the ones where the happy ending doesn't also includes I fix things with my family even though they were bad before.
00:05:31
Speaker
well I guess it it maybe be it depends on the level of badness, right? It depends. And I before you get started, or just to clarify. Yes, I find it more acceptable, but that is typically not because I don't think people should reconcile or that they should just like. I think it's because the problem does not actually get addressed on page in an appropriate way. That makes sense. One conversation where it's like, oh, now I'm so sorry that i was mad at you and didn't talk to you for 20 years because you told me that you hated me and I'm going to hell.
00:06:08
Speaker
You know, or whatever it is, you know, like, and now we're fine. or like, yes, I am comfortable having you around my child. Like, I have some, I have some concerns, you know, and that when we talk about we've talked about it many times, maybe not in this specific context. But having those concerns at the end of a book dampens the hga because you're like, okay, but what about ellipsis, you know? what are you going to say, Ingrid? Well, I was going to say, I going to say, i think that it's important too to remember that, remember how we've talked about how when we read romance novels, sometimes we find things really gripping. We love, we eat it up. Things that we would never actually want to happen in real life, right? So there there could also be a certain amount of, you know...
00:06:53
Speaker
for For people who are actually experiencing this stuff in real life, what would they want if they could have anything? do you know what I mean? For some people, it is being able to just write just walk away and not look back and have a newfound family and just start over. And for some people, if they could do anything, they would have all the good sorry parts of their parent or their family and be able to move forward without all of the things that harmed them in the past. So I think that there's space for both resolutions because we're processing things that are really happening. This is part of the human experience, unfortunately, is that sometimes our family fails us. And so I think what you said about the resolution being the most important thing, right? So if they reconcile it needs to feel like that's the right thing you know like it needs to feel like this is the outcome that is best and feels satisfying and and i think that it sounds like there needs to be some degree of clues or evidence that that's the right thing right whereas with the other one where if they walk away there needs to be some evidence that there's the character is not the family or the parent is not capable of change and it's the brave and right decision to walk away yes
00:08:04
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So anyway, so that's forced family. And I think we are going to come back to reconciliation and how that hits or not. But I do want to pause us and we should define found family, which in some ways is ah kind of a flip side of the same coin.
Defining 'Found Family' and Its Importance
00:08:25
Speaker
So a found family is the family you make yourself. It's the family you build yourself. And i think comes out of communities of people who are estranged from their birth families or don't have birth family, you know, but I think now is also kind of embraced by people who have birth families and also found families. And we need both kinds of community.
00:08:51
Speaker
Maybe. i Like maybe it doesn't really count as a found family if you have strong ties with your birth family still and those are just friends. And like that's something that we can...
00:09:02
Speaker
Well, I think I've seen i've heard, and Erin, you tell me if you think this is accurate. I have also heard, though, that found family, you know, in this age when we move around so much, I have heard of situations. And let's say you you are West Coast or you grew up West Coast, you move East Coast, you see your family once every three years. Where do you go for Thanksgiving?
00:09:22
Speaker
What do you do if there's in a family emergency? So there's a certain degree of found family just because you can't access your family the same way. You know what I mean? Yeah. so yeah. Well, I guess, but so like I live far away from my family.
00:09:35
Speaker
Are my neighbors who are my like kids emergency pickup at school? Like, are they my found family? i don't, I don't know if I would describe them that way. Right. Even though they're like, they're who I call in certain kinds of emergencies. Right? Yeah. I don't think that's it.
00:09:53
Speaker
Well, so I think the important, this is what I think. When you say found family, right? It means that it's like a surrogate family. It means that these are the people who like, They are stepping in for the routine ceremonial moments of our lives. They are bearing witness to our lives. so that There's an expectation that they are in it for the long haul. Do you know what I mean? so like having an emergency contact, like, sure. Okay. But like, can you sit there and close your eyes and picture them coming to your child's college graduation?
00:10:20
Speaker
do you understand what I'm saying? Right. Whereas like a found family is like, there's a level of commitment there. So yeah. Obviously, this is going to be more of a spectrum than it's going to be like, yes and no. Because, for example, like military, I live in a huge military community. Well, almost every time I sit down and I talk to somebody, one of my friends who's usually it's whose spouse is career military, they a found family because it's a necessity because you move around so much and because you go through so much that i don't know I think it's just baked into the experience every single person that I know met someone in their first husband's deployment and didn't know how they were going to get through it and three moves later they're still friends with this person and they still have this family come and visit them in the summers and it's like a deep connection that has lasted forever
00:11:07
Speaker
Over a decade type of a thing. Do you know what I mean? This is not the same thing as shoot. I need an emergency contact. This friend. I really trust them. They know how I parent. If I need it, I know they'd show up, but I, in my head, if they moved away, i know realistically, we probably wouldn't be the same level of closeness.
00:11:23
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? though The commitment isn't there. Yes. Except for, yes, I agree with you a hundred percent. I'm just thinking of someone like me who is absolutely garbage. It,
00:11:36
Speaker
staying in touch with people ever we live in different states and have been for 25 years for twenty five years now Yeah. And urban and like really nice that you're willing to put up with me. Five of those 25 years. And Erin, think of it this way. I know, This is good point because Holly, like when we talk about found family, we're talking about like a group.
00:12:01
Speaker
Holly, when your parents lived abroad, where did you go for holidays? came and lived with guys. she That's true. We've had family holidays with Holly. She's family. So like your sister, Holly, hu who's she friends with?
00:12:15
Speaker
i mean we're not super tight like we once were but like we were all friends do you know what I mean right your little brother locked us onto the roof at one point for shenanigans and we had to climb over your house like we're tight our parents still hang out without us oh yeah your little brother was annoyed I still don't know what I did and I found myself locked out on your roof and I had to scale your house and climb over it to jump off the other side okay okay I mean, I can see it.
00:12:44
Speaker
can see it. And our parents still hang out without being around. So, like, Erin, think that... That's And, like, your mom threw me a bridal shower yeah when I got married. Yeah. So, and I fully... I don't know why... Yeah, you're through me.
00:13:03
Speaker
your little brother was needed something and one of y'all gave me a call i'd be like i yeah i guess i'm getting in my car and going to the city he lives in if i'm the closest do you know what i mean it doesn't matter because it's just that's what i have i in my head i my the closest I don't know. I think I am the closest. yeah But do you see the point? Like, so Aaron, I mean, like, it it is kind of weird to think about because if you haven't sat there and defined it, and I think that we haven't had the need to because all of us are close to our families.
00:13:30
Speaker
you know what i mean? So we don't have we haven't sat there and been like, oh my gosh, my family is gone. And I have, who where am I going to have Thanksgiving? Who's going to come to my kid's piano recital? We haven't had, we haven't been forced to sit there and think about it because we still have access to our foreign family, but found family is that long-term commitment ah to be, show up for life's moments. do you know what I mean? And, you know, I have a, I have a best friend who, I mean, like we talk all the time about what we're going do when we're old ladies. The assumption is there. She is auntie to my children. They, they actually think she's my sister, just like an Aaron. And I have to frequently be like, no, I didn't. I met her when I was pregnant with you. So, you know, there's, I think that that's found family is just, there's, that there's a commitment to showing up for life's moments. You know, you can assume that because that's the thing with family. You can safely assume that grandparents are going to care, you know, when your kid breaks their arm. That's what family is supposed. That's the role that they're supposed to fulfill. They're supposed to care about what you care about and get upset when you get upset. And when you lose that, it's a gaping hole. I mean, it feels really bad. So being able to have any kind of family found or born where you can assume you can count on it.
00:14:42
Speaker
You don't have to feel like you're imposing. The assumption is they're going to want to be there. Or that a conflict is going to be an end of the world situation. Yeah. Like where you've just, there is a commitment. It doesn't, no matter what happens, like you're going to slog through it because you're family. Okay. This was amazing.
00:14:59
Speaker
and love you guys. Thank you. Can we bring this back to romance novels? Well, No. Sorry. Yes, fine. Well, okay. So then, okay, so we'll get back to our, we have like an outline or something. So here's the question then that I will try to bring it back to romance novels because in our initial discussions, as we were talking about what exactly was going to come into this podcast whether we were going to read, going to do a buddy read. I don't know y'all noticed, but we didn't do a buddy read. We're just talking about stuff. Well, okay. I'll be real. It was me who said, let's not do a buddy read because was like, basically 50% of all romance novels are about found family. Yeah. Prove me wrong. Right. And it's like,
00:15:43
Speaker
the group of like it's the group of friends who are always and as Ingrid said like they're they're the ones portrayed when there's a holiday or something like that even if the characters also still have family so then comes the question of and maybe this is romance specific or not romance specific what's the difference between a found family and a close group of friends and are we conflating in romance a found family and a close group of friends or what are the hallmarks that we need to see and Does it really matter?
00:16:15
Speaker
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. Or my question is like, say a motorcycle club romance. Right. Like this is a tight group of people that is, I mean, they define themselves in terms of brotherhood, right? Right. Like, is this a found family?
00:16:34
Speaker
But or maybe that's too extreme. Like maybe we go back to like old school historicals like are the wallflowers, you know, and Lisa Clefus's wallflower series, right? Because they're all
Found Family in Romance Novels
00:16:44
Speaker
friends.
00:16:45
Speaker
They're all friends and they spend all their all their holidays together. They see each other in the next spinoff series. They're all still hanging out together. So we've got the lifetime commitments.
00:16:55
Speaker
So from a literary perspective, I think that there's two different things happening here, right? So there's on a character level, is is does this character exist in a fan found family? And then I think there's found family as a plot device.
00:17:09
Speaker
o Two separate things. Because I think that you're 100% right. Obviously, in my opinion, from a character development standpoint, a motorcycle club would be a found family. And I actually was... I made some categories myself. In romanticcy, virtually always, there's a found family.
00:17:28
Speaker
Small town romances tend to create found families. Really? Well, yeah. Well, that's another thing I was going ask about because... What does it mean if, here, I'll clari i'll i'll clarify that.
00:17:40
Speaker
I think that small town series tend to result, the end result is a found family because usually there's a couple that are, you know, born and and have lived in the small town forever and then a bunch of outsiders come in.
00:17:53
Speaker
it's an integrated found family. Or whatever. Yeah. finally And then by the end, when you get to the final epilogue, they're all yeah in their group together. to clarify. And I think that sports teams, military, those tend to result in found family because they travel a lot or they don't have access to their families. So they create their own found families. You see what I'm saying? Like, They're going to do holidays together, usually by the end of the series. Like from a literary perspective, if you're building a series.
00:18:18
Speaker
Correct. Building a found family at the same time is a way to make a series. Integrated. Cohesive. Correct. If you don't want to have a family with the a million kids.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so I think that there is a differentiation between found family as part of character or series development and found family as a plot driver. So the plot revolves around this person, the character. found family can develop by happenstance. It can develop as a BIPOC product of what characters are going through, or it can be the point. It can be that this character is trying to find something that they have lost in others. And that's the point of the plot, or they're trying to figure out how to deal with the loss of their family. And then it, you know, develops because of that. I would, I would argue that from, if we're going to pick apart the writing of it, the meat of it, the bones and mechanics of it,
00:19:15
Speaker
you have to you have to separate that out. So I think for the purposes of this discussion, what I'm understanding is we're kind of more talking about it from a plot development standpoint rather than a character series world building standpoint.
00:19:27
Speaker
right Does that sound right, Erin? That's kind of what I'm hearing you say when you were, that book that really bothered you, that's what I'm hearing, that it bothered you from a plot standpoint. do you know what i mean? Not Oh, I see what you're saying. I was going to say plot development, but I was thinking in terms of like using a found family for series development so that by the end, it's more fun to see all the characters that you've fallen in love with over four or five books, you know, yeah having Christmas together as opposed to going to their own... family is separating for you know Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever right but yes in terms of like the forced family situation that I described initially it was a plot issue yeah it was yeah it into that sounds like and it was a very character driven romance I mean it wasn't a super plot driven romance and I was wrong I just was reading the little blurb and ah the love interest was an ER r doctor so not a fireman naturally very helpful life saving have as a parent of a new infant Yes.
00:20:31
Speaker
Pediatric ER are or just like normal ER? I don't know. that I don't know that it was specified. So yeah, that was one of those. you know Also, i mean, it wasn't the same as... So one of, I think, the most exceptional found family stories that I've ever read that was like so intentional and probably because of what it is, is Handmade Holidays by Nathan Burgoyne. And that is about... It takes place over the course of... I think it's 10 chapters and it's over the course of 10 years. It's a a found family of all queer people.
00:21:05
Speaker
And, you know, they have different identities, but it starts with this guy getting kicked out of his house and he has literally nothing. And that's why it's a handmade holidays because it's like he has nothing except for this. And he has like his one friend and then they build a family from their greater community. And they're together for these holidays for 10 years and going through some life ups and downs. And that is just like a very clear picture of, I guess, also plot because it's this person who has to figure out now what am I going to do for all of these? Like Ingrid was talking about earlier. What am I going to do for all of these life moments?
00:21:44
Speaker
where I always used to have my family, but I don't have my family anymore. Right. Because of my identity. And how do I forge a new path forward? Yeah. So yeah, I guess then I'm just trying to differentiate like in thinking about it as a literary tool, then like, where do we draw the line? So ah so I'm thinking, for example, about Catherine McIntyre's Dungeons and Dating series. I think you guys read some of those.
00:22:09
Speaker
also I read one of them. Yeah. I think I read one of them. Right? That it's about a bunch of queer people in San Francisco who all work or hang out at a board games bar. Oh, yeah. But it's like a classic series where it like builds out and it builds out. But I feel like the community the bigger community of the bar is really important in all the books and like the main characters' relationships not just with their love interest, but with everybody at the bar is like really central to the story. But but are they found family? Yeah. like Are they going to be doing all these things or is it just like, yes, it is found family, but is it found flame family just in order to make series cohesion or in order to like really dig into these ideas? And maybe it depends on the book also. Cause I think one of the ones I read,
00:23:01
Speaker
The character like had a girlfriend who didn't like the bar and had pulled away and then like they were going to break up, but then she like died in a car accident. And so this main character is dealing with having pulled away from this found family and wanting to go back to it, but also feeling guilt because of like the way things went down with her ex. And so that one was, but I maybe not all. I don't think all of them.
00:23:28
Speaker
dealt with it in the same way one of my examples that i found had an example of both and i was really excited about this it's adra richards it's the beaumont series okay so the first one is exit pursued by a baron right which you've talked about before which i've talked about before because i'm only i'm very new to remembering book titles so i'm just regurgitating the same ones and luckily there's They're relevant. So stick with me here. But um exit pursued by a baron. She has found family because she was cast out of society for being a mistress, like a publicly scorned mistress. So she has a family, but she hasn't spoken them. She sends them money, but she hasn't spoken to them because she like shamed them by being a mistress and an actress. So the play company is her found family. And she does have kind of a hole that her family,
00:24:15
Speaker
relationship obviously with the Baron but also it's her owner of the company but he is like her almost like her brother I mean like they're really tight and he looks after her protects her advocates for her acts in her best interest kind of against her will sometimes because there's an understanding even even when they know that she's gonna become a lady and be part of society there's always an assumption that she's gonna be connected to this stage group because they're her family She's not just going to give up acting forever or give up the whole thing because she's doing this because that's her she can't do that. That's not an option. So I think that's a good example of found family. And then there's other books in the series. One at the end where it's kind of forced family, but with a satisfying conclusion where that one's Lady Diana's Lost Lord. She's engaged from childhood to someone
00:25:05
Speaker
And then he never comes back for her. So she ends up kind of never being able to so have a family or settle down because her dad would have to give back the engagement money if she broke the engagement. I don't know what it is, but the whole point is like they couldn't break it off and she couldn't get married. So she was stuck in this engagement forever. And now she's on the shelf. Anyway, it turns out the reason is because he has a secret baby and his father threatened to like expose him and the child and like ruin their lives or whatever. If he went public with this adopted daughter that he has, and that is supposedly his affair, baby mistress, his baby. Anyway, point is, is that he has to cut off his father and all of his fortune and access to his title and everything in order to protect his daughter. And so there's a really good reason why he's estranged from his family. And she's trying to get him to reconcile so that they can,
00:25:57
Speaker
deal with this engagement basically that sounds extremely messy it is and there is reconciliation at the end spoiler oh i don't know about that i don't i don't know about that it is handled it's adra richards so it's handled very well and you cry a whole bunch Well, okay, maybe it boils down to not just the world building, but like the character building authors who really like to create like a character rich world or story. And they have like this big community versus the authors who really like to stay focused on the couple with just like maybe a few side characters. Or sometimes you'll even get books where you're like, wow, they didn't like talk to anyone else. the and Yeah. Your book ah like who lives like that. But you don't notice if it's done well, right? But there are authors and I'm thinking of Kristen Ashley is one for sure, speaking of motorcycle clubs. But like, I think I wrote about it in my review of the last book that I read by her. So it's like the third or fourth series set in her Denver world. And there is a meeting that they have to try and deal with the super evil bad guy, which I quit reading because the fourth book in the series did not even address the question of the super evil bad guy. And i think she stopped writing that series. So we will never know what happens.
00:27:16
Speaker
And every single character, like every single hero, From all of the series, the motorcycle club guys, the like private investigator guys, they are all in a meeting together.
00:27:31
Speaker
Like they all belong in this conversation. And it's just for this huge, huge like family thing. Like Stephanie Lawrence does the same thing.
00:27:42
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, like, yeah you know, Stephanie Lawrence, you know, she wrote all the Sinster books, and then she wrote the Bastion Club, which is like more of a, like, the Sinsters are related, but then like the Bastion Club are like a group of bros who are like buddies.
00:27:57
Speaker
So that's kind of a found family. But and then she wrote the Black Cobra Quartet, which is like a hot pile of mess. But there is a scene where they're like, hey, I called up my friend, Sinster and and he called up his buds from the Bastion Club and they all have a meet all the heroes have a meeting about how they're gonna stop the evil bad guy and all the heroines have tea together to like show of this new heroine that it's that she can have love and also still be herself and like you know a ride horses bareback or whatever it is that like Stephanie Warren's heroines do. And so I guess that's not, strictly speaking, found family, but it is something that authors do. But like, for example, the reason that I thought of this in the first place was because I did a huge Mary Calmay binge this year, like read all of the books, which is ridiculous.
00:28:54
Speaker
So I've read all these books. I get to finally, there's a like a little trilogy of novellas about this bodyguard guy. And it ends with George's big day, which is was his wedding day, right? So it's his wedding day, right? It's his wedding. And all of these characters...
00:29:12
Speaker
From all the other books end up at his wedding. And I'm like, how do you even know each other? Like, she's got the world in one place, but she's like brought in characters and they're like all best friends enough to be going to this guy's wedding.
00:29:28
Speaker
from like four different series or five different series hilaria because she has a very interconnected world going on I'm just like this is so extra but I mean it's the one of those things where you're like yeah these are the people that you're gonna invite to share your big life moments with it's like all of them ah yeah I mean so there are some yeah so I think I feel like that's kind of a different kind of author choice yeah that's that's world that's kind of world building but I think that with the Beaumonts, not every book involves, well, they kind of, in this that series, I would say that there's an undercurrent of found family that's really present in all the books. And it's overt in the found forest family type dynamic is overt in two of the four books. But when it's part of a plot device, like, you know, because there's a hole to be filled. There's a space that's outside of the love interest that needs love.
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:26
Speaker
and i think it's different and it's clear so kate c wells for example and that's why i brought up a small town and it's like sometimes you know by the end of the series it's a found family but for a while it's just somebody joining an already existing family which isn't the same thing i think do we agree Right. So Kate C. Wells has a lot of that more of that dynamic where it it'll be like kind of a lost sheep that's taken into the fold. Yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker
However, in some of her shifter romances, it is more found family where it's a lot of people who are alone and they're looking because it's a pack type thing, you know, so there's a lot of lost who need a pack because it's a common thing in ah shifter romances that you have to be part of a pack or you go what's the word for it feral well that's that's the gist but yeah it's that's opening a whole other can of worms it's not just you see the problem see romance or besties in historical romance whatever it's the shifter everywhere yeah it's it's like humans want connection or yeah it's like it's a huge part yeah that's so weird why would books that are about romantic connection actually be about all kinds of human connection
00:31:38
Speaker
WTF. Who would have thought? Okay, so I'm wondering now, we we had initially said, or Holly, you had initially said, ok these these concepts of found family versus forced family are kind of two sides of one coin. Yes.
Comparing Forced and Found Family Dynamics in Romance
00:31:54
Speaker
But in terms of romance books... I mean, i don't conceptually for humans, they are. But is that still the case when we're looking at books? Because we're talking about a lot of group scenarios in which a found family might come into play in romance.
00:32:11
Speaker
and We haven't talked a lot about the forced family question. But i mean, yeah in Handmade Holidays, this guy never reconciles with his family. So in that case, I guess, sure.
00:32:23
Speaker
But in the cases of these... in support of a series we have a found family the forced family question might not ever even come into play so yeah you know you're right i think in real life they are very closely linked whereas if you build a found family in a book then just like how many characters do you have space for right yeah Well, that's true.
00:32:45
Speaker
That's true. I also feel like when we're talking about how broad this is, I also think it's important to note that there has been a ah shift over time. So I'm thinking of the bodice rippers, right?
00:32:59
Speaker
I feel. And you tell me if you think I'm onto something or if you think I'm i'm incorrect. But the vibe was very much, i don't need anyone but you. Mm hmm.
00:33:18
Speaker
that are being published now i'm seeing more and more that the love interest can't be it there needs to be a full life outside and i've talked before about how that includes a career But I'm noticing, too, that it tends to include a found family and it tends to involve, like Aaron said, there are a lot more plots of people really evaluating the health and the harm of their family of origin.
00:33:43
Speaker
And that fixing or rejecting that family of origin is part of being able to be in a relationship. as a plot well i'm just thinking about like okay in historical romance every lord has daddy issues like 100 of them 100 of them one hundred percent of them As a policy. Whether it's that they can't live up to their father who's amazing or their father was horrible and abusive. It's one or the other. yeah There's no in between. But we don't have to do reconciliation because a huge part of their daddy issue is that their daddy is dead now. Right. And now...
00:34:24
Speaker
they are facing stepping into his shoes and like literally with the title and the name. So reconciliation, it becomes a lot more like symbolic. Like how do I feel about my position in society? Like how am I relating to my title and my duties rather than how am I... Right.
00:34:50
Speaker
You know, so like to give ah an example that like so many people know about like Bridgerton. Yeah. The Duke and i Where he has daddy issues because his dad was terrible. Such issues. And the way it's reconciled is him coming to terms with being a father himself.
00:35:07
Speaker
And like, i don't even want to open the can of worms of how this happens. But like his dad is dead. He's not going to have a relationship with his dad. Or like sometimes it might be secondary where he where there's like some repair with the relationship with the mother. But it's not the same kind of thing as we're seeing. Right. Right.
00:35:24
Speaker
and The vibe is very different. Yeah. the vibe it's you Like I said, I feel like you know it when you see it. It's it's not secondary. It's not passive. It's like a clear found family, forced family issue. yeah Yeah. No, it's like it's coming to terms with their own feelings, which is something that has to happen. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
I think for characters, regardless if they're processing things well, but when we get into contemporary, what we see is action and results, whatever the action, like if it's going no contact or reconciling, it's like an external reckoning. They're not doing an internal reckoning like we would see in the historical romance where the person is literally not available. Right.
00:36:08
Speaker
to To have a conversation them. So yeah, and the Duke and I, Simon, is really coming to terms with his own feelings about his childhood in general. Yeah. so Right. Okay, so way back, Holly said in the beginning, okay, pause, forced family.
Reconciliation in Forced Family Dynamics
00:36:25
Speaker
We're going to still define terms. But we had started talking about the characters that were going no contact with and what they did And whether or not the reconciliation is going to work. And i sometimes we see, i think Ingrid had kind of indicated, the problem character is like full-blown villain. Yeah. And so we end up feeling really good about the fact that, yes, they don't deserve a second chance or whatever. yeah But more often, and I think this is also what Ingrid was getting at, In contemporary romance in particular, we're seeing more shades of gray that we'll see, okay, adult children of adult parents suddenly start recognizing that their parents are like flawed people.
00:37:11
Speaker
and They're processing what, you know, maybe they're processing their trauma as we do. And then what? Because it's much more shades of gray. Right. And so where does that get us? I mean, I had said it really ends up being the big picture. Like, was the work put in to make whichever direction this character ends up going, be it reconciliation or no contact, feel like the correct choice for the character, I think, Ingrid articulated that really well earlier.
00:37:40
Speaker
But yeah, where does that leave us on this forced family question and the specific act of reconciliation here? Because if they can reconcile with their forced family situation, then they don't have to worry about the found family anymore. Everything is coming up roses, right?
00:37:57
Speaker
Well, I mean, like this is a like book by book thing. So I'm thinking about Delilah Green Doesn't Care by i don't remember the author's name.
00:38:08
Speaker
And the situation in this is it's stepsisters, Delilah Green and her stepsister Astrid, think. And Delilah's dad died.
00:38:19
Speaker
And so she is an orphan. And the only family she has left is her stepmother and stepsister from whom she is estranged. And in the book, what happens is her stepsister is getting married and she is invited to come back home to their small town to go to the wedding.
00:38:40
Speaker
And it's it's really a mixed bag because she is able to reconcile with her sister and through that process finds a found family in this new town. But they both of them, both sisters now are setting boundaries and having a more estranged relationship with the mother character.
00:38:59
Speaker
And so I don't remember I don't remember what your question was. Oh, you don't need the found family if you have reconciliation. And I think, well, that's not true. It depends on what the reconciliation looks like and how it plays out in any given book. And like, you know, if we're talking about queer romances, because I feel like this is a lot of where this tension comes in, right, where we have this found family, this community. of queer people and my parent who kicked me out and if I reconcile with them do I need this new family anymore and like it's messy it's messy and it's shades of gray and I feel like we can't just say yes there is one answer to this
00:39:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, and I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. Yeah, no, I don't know. But yeah, okay, sorry. I like went off on this whole thing. But I think that it's a good point because I i think that what Erin, the point of that was that it speaks to the bigger question of just the satisfaction of reconciliation in general.
What Makes Forced Family Reconciliation Satisfying?
00:39:55
Speaker
Because the problem is, is that whenever this happens in romance, right, whenever these dynamics come up, no matter what the dynamic is, just about anything Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. sold right you know you have to convince the reader that this is the best outcome for them or that if it's not completely resolved that they're gonna they have everything they need to solve it offp page so here's a crazy example which i know it's it's fantasy so it's they Fantasy is like the Wild West plot-wise, I think. They just kind of do whatever they want, and if it doesn't work, they add magic. So um anyway, but Jasmine Moss, she has almost exclusively the lone wolf rejected by society and who is actively rejecting everyone else is kind of enveloped into usually poly situation, but it it also kind of becomes a found family thing, you know? And in her previous series, and in ah her Bonds of Hercules one or whatever series right now, Parents are reintroduced on some level. So in the Psycho God series, it's a it turns out someone she thought was like an enemy is a father figure.
00:41:02
Speaker
So like Luke Skywalker. Like Luke Skywalker. Okay. Yeah. And then in another one, the parents thought that she was dead and now she's being reintroduced to them, but it's very much like a building a relationship from scratch and she had to have a found family in order to survive. And now she's trying to, trying to integrate two things, you know,
00:41:19
Speaker
um and the point that i'm trying to make is that i think that um in both cases the messiness of it the found family is helping the main character navigate how much to let this you know birth family in helping her figure out what she needs to see to feel safe with those relationships and stuff and so it's definitely like a slow development over the course of the series so although Many things in those series I find a little challenging on other levels. That part actually makes it it works because the whole point of a lot of this stuff is that there are a lot of these books that are revolving around forced and found family is not knowing who to trust.
00:42:01
Speaker
motivations the when you when the you're supposed to be able to trust your family more than anything well when that's ripped away from you for whatever reason then that vulnerability means that you have to develop trust with either found family or when you're rebuilding it with your birth family that it exposes a great deal of vulnerability that then can be used to build a better relationship with the hero or heroes in the books So when we're talking about the satisfaction of the reconciliation, I think it is so interesting to watch how authors do that, you know? And one thing I've noticed, and i i was I'm curious if you think that this is true in, ah Erin, especially about the book that you mentioned the beginning, I've noticed that in order it for for it to be a an easily believable suspend your disbelief type reconciliation, usually the parent or parents who wronged the hero or heroine, right?
00:42:53
Speaker
They're alone. they've They've suffered consequences, right? they're They've already sat and had all this time to think about the the wrongs that they did.
00:43:04
Speaker
We're not entering into it when they're still processing. They've processed. They know they messed up. yeah They've done the work. When I'm looking at the list that I have here across the board, 100% them have that dynamic.
00:43:16
Speaker
Actually. Huh. That's interesting. Actually, since it's been so long since I read single, I cannot say with 100% certainty, but I do believe that part of the reconciliation meeting was that this found out that his mom started going to a different church. you know So like there was some evidence, I believe, that she had recognized that what had gone on before was maybe not actually what she wanted or believed was right in the end. I think my big hang up with that one was that the sister was being manipulative about it. Mm hmm.
00:44:00
Speaker
And then it was sewn up so nicely in a bow like oh this one not very satisfying conversation and the indication that she had switched churches is enough was sufficient and I didn't think that was sufficient and that's what I was going to say Ingrid as you were talking it's like yet They've done the work. I agree that seeing that when we're looking at a reconciliation situation is definitely going to be part of what would make a satisfying one.
00:44:26
Speaker
But what I think needs to happen just in general with this stuff is that the author needs to kind of have a pretty good handle on, I guess, the psychology of what is going on here. Right. The acknowledgement, the atonement, the healthy and appropriate ways to begin and have a dialogue about it Because like I have one example that I can remember for sure where the characters went no contact and I also found this one.
00:44:53
Speaker
A little bit frustrating because it's Fall Into You by Georgina Kirsten. And it's a little hollet, like it's a fall, you know, vibes novella. So it's not like a full blown novel length with all the bells and whistles. So in this book, I can acknowledge that this woman's mom is super toxic, manipulative, hypercritical, all the things. Mm hmm.
00:45:16
Speaker
And this is one of those books where part of the journey that this character goes through is growing into her own power. So it's not just the relationship that she meets this other woman and they have this cute romance. It's also that she is like growing into what she wants her manifesting. She's making her life that way she wants it to be kind of a thing.
00:45:36
Speaker
And part of that is going no contact with her mom. But there's nothing in the story itself that she had previously discussed with her mom that she didn't like her mother's behavior. And she ends up just blocking her without any sort of conversation. So I can see how that would be really satisfying if you're like, I just want to cut off the toxicity in my life and I don't need that in my life. But for me, I mean, there are some exceptions to this. Depending on very specific interpersonal problems where you just get out. Right.
00:46:09
Speaker
But for me, the steps of having conversations to introduce your boundaries, request changes of behavior, all of that is part of what gets you to the point of no contact. So I also didn't really appreciate this no contact situation, even though I could totally see this character getting there one way or the other. hmm.
00:46:32
Speaker
Because she didn't end up really addressing it. She continued to avoid it. First, she avoided it by not addressing it with her mother and just taking these toxic phone calls. And then she avoided it by just blocking her mother and ignoring it you know So I think that when authors are really checked in to this is the healthy process for dealing with complicated relationships, that is where we see really good work happening. And it it is the stuff like the people who were responsible for being manipulative, being toxic, making bad choices in the past, whatever, have recognized and taken responsibility for their past actions. And given a sincere apology, right? Like all of these steps. that like okay I feel like I'm parenting right now. Okay, but here's the thing, Erin.
00:47:24
Speaker
Do we actually like books where people make well thought out and good and healthy decisions? now No. No. Well, hold on Hold on.
00:47:36
Speaker
In the case of the main characters, true. But this is not a main character relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Do I want to read a book about characters? You're right. No, I don't. know i Get as messy as possible. And honestly, some of the books that I've been reading lately, they're all messy as anything. But nobody's trying to be like...
00:47:53
Speaker
So nobody's trying to be like, oh, I'm fixing this relationship with magic sparkles, you know? like Well, okay. So you say that I'm fixing this relationship with the magic sparkles in this whole year. You've been talking about these books and I'm thinking about Jackie Lau's ultimate pie day party. Have you guys read this one? No. I haven't read Ultimate Pie Day. I read that Love Lies and Cherry Pie. Is that pie the same? No. No. Different series. it's a different, yeah. I think Ultimate Pie Day Party is, it's part of it trilogy but it's it's based on space but anyway the whole thing the main care the male main character is estranged from his dad when he was in high school he got his girlfriend pregnant i don't i don't remember what happened with the baby but like the baby is not in the picture She either had a miscarriage or an abortion, but that's not important. And his dad was like, you have shamed me.
00:48:46
Speaker
You have shamed the family. i am so disappointed in you and cuts him off and like doesn't kick him out of the house, but stop speaking to him. So he is like has continued to like go home for family meals, do all this stuff. And his dad gives him the silent treatment and has been for 15 years, say. Yeah.
00:49:05
Speaker
say And so what the ultimate pie day party is, is he knows that his dad was a math teacher and would do a pie day celebration every year. And so he is trying to show his dad that he's changed and throws a pie day party for his dad to say. And also to show like, I am a like serious, successful Chinese Canadian engineer. I don't remember what his job is, but it's something like that.
00:49:30
Speaker
yeah And he and he falls in love with the baker who he hires to make all these pies. But in this case, this is a reconciliation that the harmed party actively seeking. And i have to say, I don't remember how it ends. I think the bleak moment between the two main characters is because the dad comes to this party and sees him kissing the caterer and is like, I can't, I can't believe this. You haven't changed. You thought you were serious. And you're like doing hanky panky with the hired help, just like I thought you would.
00:50:04
Speaker
And so there isn't that apology scene, but I think there is reconciliation at the end. But the whole plot is about this guy as the harmed party, like jumping through all these hoops. But this was the first Jackie Lau I read and I didn't write her off as an author. So I feel like she must've put it off. I just can't remember how she does it. i Well, yeah, there's I think authors can tell you a story that you don't get ragey about for several years. They have they have magic sparkles. But i think you raise a good separate question or issue because, you know, we've talked a lot about questions.
00:50:42
Speaker
queer people and why we frequently will see found family stuff in their stories because of issues in our western white american culture But other cultures have very different relationships about family and familial expectations. right And Jackie Lau's Chinese Canadian characters definitely have an approach to family that is culturally different than what we as white Americans have. Right. Yeah. I mean, and you you mentioned that when we were doing this before and I was like, but wait a minute. Like she does have a couple of books where there is family estrangement and in addition to all the ones where there's like the busybody mom who just like really needs some boundaries. But she has a lot of but that's not going to happen. Kind of overbearing parents is a recurring theme for a lot of her. Yes. Characters. Yes.
00:51:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that is interesting that then you pulled up the ultimate pie day party. But I think that we can see there manifestation of like this person. And I'm not saying that anybody from any other place wouldn't also have continued to go to like family dinners, even though.
00:52:05
Speaker
Their dad
Cultural Influences on Family Dynamics
00:52:06
Speaker
hadn't spoken to them for 15 years. You know, people are products of their settings or their upbringing. Right. Like, so if you grow up in a very toxic environment, it's very hard to recognize that that isn't normal for most people. Right.
00:52:23
Speaker
ah You know, so I don't think we would say that that wasn't an inappropriate response on the part of this guy's father. Just like I don't think we would read. um I'm thinking of the, what it, like the cider bar series where a lot of them have. moms Moms, I think, in particular, who are just like hypercritical. and It's mostly the the heroines who are the friends. And so they're finding a decent man, right? And there's an expectation about what constitutes like a good husband and doctor, lawyer, engineer or something.
00:52:58
Speaker
And, you know, if you don't bring that guy around, then it's not good enough. Which we also i was going to was trying to articulate that that also we would not consider particularly healthy.
00:53:10
Speaker
But you know it's also in the Jewish. model But I mean, the jewish yeah I mean, there are so many this is ah there are so many cultures. where the family expectations play a different role. And I think what was what what is interesting about those is that those characters frequently, I think in the case of the Ultimate Pi Day Party, it's it's what you've described as kind of sad.
00:53:32
Speaker
That one's still on my TBR, but he's trying to get his father's approval. And that is a frequent thread for a lot of heroes. ah Maybe not to like that yeah kind of heartbreaking extent.
00:53:45
Speaker
ah But in terms of these other characters, it's like I'm thinking of the Cider Bar Sisters, I think is what the series is called. Like I said, they are Chinese Canadian.
00:53:55
Speaker
So they all grew up in Canada with, you know, Canadian kids. but in a, you know, maybe first generation or second generation immigrant household or whatever. And so it's almost like they accept by the end of the book, they're accepting their family for who they are and who they're not. Their family is not going to change, but they don't really want to cut them out of their life. They can just say, hey, this is my mom or my grandma whatever, my dad.
00:54:24
Speaker
They're coming from a different place than me. And I can accept that. And we can kind of be a family together. And let that part go. And kind of like they figure out how to maintain a little balance. And maybe the parent also kind of figures out how to be a little bit more accepting. But like they're not totally going to change their spots. And I think there's something to that as well because families can be messy. Mm-hmm.
00:54:47
Speaker
accepting people as they are and as they are not is part of being able to overcome conflicts and see other views and all sorts of things. Well, and I think it's also, mean, I like we've talked about this, we've alluded to this a couple times, but I mean, this is something, the reason this is coming up in books is because it's coming up in real life. So, you know, there have been so many news stories about, obviously this impacts families where there are children who aren't straight or don't adhere to societal or religious expectations. Right. But also there's just family dynamics where back in the day you just put up with it and all of a sudden there was this understanding that don't have to do that. Yeah. And then, you know, cue the society trying to wrangle with parents who have no idea why their kids don't talk to them anymore. Yeah. kids who just are done and are processing that choice. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that we're finding this reflected in books. And it doesn't surprise me at all that we're finding varying levels of satisfaction and how it's being handled, because I don't know that we as a society have quite figured out how to deal with this and what the boundaries are and what the guidelines are right now. You know, it's something that's still evolving. And I do think it's interesting that we talked about the cultural aspect of it because
00:56:00
Speaker
There are so many different flavors of this family dynamic and thus it's going to be the same thing in books.
Literature's Reflection of Changing Family Norms
00:56:07
Speaker
So many flavors. And what's satisfying to one person, there may be there may be examples that some people would be fine and just skate right by and it would really bother some to other people.
00:56:17
Speaker
No. Yeah. Isn't fiction great? I just love it. i I feel like we should end with the most epic Thanksgiving bomb drop romance for all family fun, which I didn't even read. it was Holly who read it. ah Say more.
00:56:43
Speaker
and it's it's her naughty holiday, right? by Is it Tiffany Reese? Mm-hmm. Where they're all at Thanksgiving and all of a sudden it just goes.
00:56:55
Speaker
ah I don't know, Holly, if you want to talk about it more. But I loved reading that. Was it a TBR challenge book that you posted it in or whatever? I was like, oh, yeah. I need to go look up my review because I don't remember what happens. But i I'm sure, I'm pretty sure that it's like ah her boy her new boyfriend comes to family Thanksgiving with her and her family's terrible and they're and he's just like, y'all are terrible.
00:57:24
Speaker
Peace out. But I could be misremembering and apologies to all the fans of the MinuteWorks series because I know you are legion and that you religiously reread this trilogy every fall. And I'm sorry I'm not one of you yet, but maybe this is my reminder that I should.
00:57:46
Speaker
So happy Thanksgiving. Everybody go read the name of the book again, please, Erin. her naughty holiday thank you i mean there's a i just remember holly was like this was so sad it was so sad uh yes and uh there's like a christmas one that i remember being pretty good and a halloween one that i actually haven't read yet so shame on me that's on my tbr too and i still read well maybe man i guess i this is the year maybe this is the year i have fun hanging out with my family go go ah it's real sexy too oh yeah it's harlequin blaze it is harlequin blaze and la la on that note and i guess if listeners have recommendations for something that's really great either really great in that it was like so satisfying or really great and that it made you so angry oh yeah we want to hear those sometimes that's kind of satisfying too
00:58:43
Speaker
Let us know. um And you can let us know either in the comments on the show notes, which will be at smutreport.com slash podcast or on the socials at Smut Report. And basically, we're only on Blue Sky, but we have accounts other places, but we might not respond to you.
00:58:58
Speaker
Sorry. We'll do our best. No promises. We love you all. Happy Thanksgiving, however you may choose to celebrate it. and Keep it smutty, folks.
00:59:10
Speaker
Na na na na