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Hoedown Showdown: Westerns from the Aughts
62 Plays4 days ago
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Transcript
Introduction and Pet Names
00:00:00
Speaker
If you don't add that the dog's name is Booby, I'm going to be really sad. i like that it's called Yellow Dog. I like that the adults just were like, that's Yellow Dog. but yeah How much less? This is like how we named our cat Small Cat. I know, right? Well, we give up. We're too tired.
00:00:16
Speaker
Because it was smaller than the other cat. And then grew to three times the size of the other cat. I know, and then it turned into a sphere. Sorry.
Podcast Introduction and Theme
00:00:31
Speaker
Hi, welcome back to the Smut Report podcast. We are here with week two of ah How the West Was Fun. No, that was a Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen movie.
00:00:44
Speaker
No, we had it. What was it, Erin? What did we say it was? what are What are we calling it? is Save the Lionel and the Ocean Creed of Romance? Yeah. Except for this is more westerns than cowboys, so I think we might still need to work it. We can do another cowboy. We'll work on it.
00:01:00
Speaker
Hi-ho, horny. We're workshopping. Hi-ho, horny. What? Sometimes I have some duds, guys, before I come up with the the one, so you have to hang in there. Yeah.
Western Romance Novels Across Decades
00:01:10
Speaker
Anyway, ah so last week we read two Westerns from the 90s, and this week we're reading two Westerns from the early 2000s to kind of get a sense over time how the genre is shifting.
00:01:22
Speaker
Next week will be up in the 2020s. So we're just going to like kind of skip the 20 teens. But there wasn't a lot of action happening in Western romance then. I don't think. I don't know. Couldn't find a lot.
00:01:33
Speaker
Anyway, I'm Holly. I'm Erin. And I'm Ingrid. So today, i feel like we have a very juicy conversation ahead of us. Oh, yes.
00:01:44
Speaker
Oh, yes. Hey, we talk about the fallen women. oh yeah, we do. Yeah. See what I'm saying? I was like, Holly did this on purpose. I didn't. I didn't. It happens every time we do bracket. It's like that these books had to have been paired up on purpose.
00:01:59
Speaker
Obviously. Obviously, I put a lot of thought into this. Okay.
Book Summaries: 'Silver Lining' and 'Night on the Texas Plains'
00:02:04
Speaker
but ah So today we read Silver Lining by Maggie Osborne, which was published in 2000 and which shall henceforth be referred to as The Spoon Book.
00:02:16
Speaker
The Spoon Book. And we also read Night on the Texas Plains by Linda Brode, which is from 2002. two thousand and two and i want to be clear that this is conige like a knight in shining armor not like a starry night sky for those of you who are looking for these books because if you look knight on the texas plains without the k there are no results which is the shocking we were looking for books it is actually it is shocking i feel like most times when i look for when i'm like searching for a romance title there's like six results i'm like oh oh how interesting
00:02:56
Speaker
Yes, great, great romance readers think alike, I think. Yeah. When it comes to titleage. Yeah. Night on the Texas Plains, without the K, they're zero. Night with the K, only one.
00:03:07
Speaker
Anyway, ah little background on these books and authors. So Maggie Osborne was active in the 80s, to the early 2000s. So Silver Lining is one of her last books.
00:03:24
Speaker
It's by far her most popular if you go by Goodreads ratings. And she did write mostly Westerns, but also wrote other various historical romance. And it looks like some like Harlequin contemporaries in the 80s, including ah historical romance called Yankee Princess, which I am happy to report is not Confederate nonsense, but rather ah takes place in Russia.
00:03:48
Speaker
So that's exciting.
In-depth Discussion on 'Silver Lining'
00:03:50
Speaker
oh
00:03:54
Speaker
What? ah Apparently it's very bodice rippery. So, and from the eighties. So maybe you should read it, Aaron. Maybe. And then Linda Brode writes only historical Westerns and is still active. It's still writing. And Night on the Texas Plains one of her first books, if not her debut.
00:04:16
Speaker
And honestly, I feel like my reaction to these books, I'm like, oh, Last book and first book. Like this kind of explains some of the, some of the things I was feeling about these books, but.
00:04:27
Speaker
Maybe that was just me. Actually, now that you say that, I'm like, huh Yeah. But we'll get into that. We'll get into that get that as we do our one-sentence summaries and then talk about the substance of the books.
00:04:39
Speaker
Yeah. So let's do our one-sentence summaries. Who wants to go first? All right. i'll I'll do it. I'll do it first. Okay. Ready? So the Spoon Book, a.k.a. Silver Lining, is about a lady prospector who basically...
00:04:55
Speaker
gets married against her will when she just wants some good sex. No, doesn't even want good sex. No, she just wants, well, she wants fruitful. It needs to result in something. She wants a baby. So and she wants some sex so she can have a baby and gets married against her will to ah guy with a huge mess in it on his hands.
00:05:14
Speaker
And they end up building a life together somehow with just insane amounts of drama. All right. I'll go next. So Silver Lining. Lowdown slash Louise ah name is the only person, definitely the only woman, who is willing to stay in a camp that has experienced a smallpox outbreak.
00:05:36
Speaker
And as a result of this hard work on her part, keeping the rest of the prospectors alive, they offer her absolutely anything she wants. And what she wants is a baby.
00:05:48
Speaker
And... oh my gosh. How many sentences are doing here? And... When the preacher says, well, we can't let her have a baby out of wedlock and live in sin. What kind of men even are you?
00:06:07
Speaker
Things rapidly spin out of control
In-depth Discussion on 'Night on the Texas Plains'
00:06:10
Speaker
and everything that could possibly be messy for these characters gets extremely messy. Because guess what?
00:06:19
Speaker
Her new husband was going to marry some other chick in a week. Are you finished? That's that's where you're ending it. I guess so. I should stop. i I mean, I could say so much more, but I feel like maybe I should just put it there.
00:06:31
Speaker
but We can tell that Erin just leaned into her true nature with that one. Okay. So you guys covered the marriage. So, you know, Lowdown and Max get married.
00:06:43
Speaker
Neither of them want this, but and now that they're married, they're stuck together. And they work together to make the best of their circumstances and in the process discover that they're meant to be together.
00:07:01
Speaker
True. I mean, that's, you know, the second half of the book. yeah This book, maybe I could also say like this book is just Western America mythology porn.
00:07:14
Speaker
I don't know what, you know what I mean? It's like plays on every single idea about like yeah Western Americans and like how they are. But I feel like we can get into that in a more in-depth discussion.
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I will say reading this book, I could not put it down. it I was so. It was so. I know. i was like, this is so uncomfortable and I terrible. was like, oh, I can't. I was trying to like read it at bedtimes and I was like, I need to sleep. And then I was like, i I, like, I've never wanted to not read the next paragraph, but, but had to so much in my life. It was, it was like driving past a car accident.
00:07:53
Speaker
It really was. Cause it was just like, how How could you end up in this position? the character it's You're not alone. The characters themselves are like, both of you were so stupid. This was so avoidable.
00:08:05
Speaker
And both of them are like, well, yeah, but she and he's like, well, yeah, but he, you know, and it's just like, oh, my God, shut up. Both of you like, really? um my gosh. He's like, well, if only I'd left the day before. Or you could be like, no, really, like, I'm getting married.
00:08:19
Speaker
It's whatever. Well, i liked when her dad was like, ah if he wanted to marry you, he would have. right um for the fiance but so this one i felt like was one damn thing after the next but so was night on the texas plains just in different way right yes it really was all right let's do let's do that let's do that one ready okay okay i i got this i got this you guys okay perfect beautiful angel lady oh yes correct on the run after murdering her abusive husband like torture porn levels of abuse abusive husband finds a knight with a trusty steed
00:09:05
Speaker
And a plot Moppet. Plot Moppet. And these damaged people go through every single tribulation you can imagine. That would happen in a Western.
00:09:18
Speaker
oh yeah. Had to. But they are a family. Oh, yeah. Yes.
00:09:27
Speaker
That might be the best one ever. This romance bingo. Yeah. No, it's pretty much. that's Holly pretty much nailed it. If this if we were like writing this out, I would have been like, no notes. That's it. I guess mine would be pretty much, yeah. So horrifically abused woman runs away, is rescued by, what's, Duel.
00:09:43
Speaker
So Jesse's rescued by Duel. On the same night, he rescues a baby. What are those odds? Rescues, wins in a poker game. Yeah, wins a baby.
00:09:54
Speaker
Rescues a damsel and puts them in his dead wife's house with all her stuff.
00:10:03
Speaker
Insert woman, get family. And then ah they spend the rest of the novel trying to figure out if they're going to have a future, what with her probably going to get hung for the murder of her first husband. I mean that's basically, that's what I got.
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah. But, like, also there's, like, ah some wounded animals. Oh, yeah. No, they just collect And also, like, the barn burns down. And also he's, like, a farmer. yeah. also brother. But also bounty hunter?
00:10:29
Speaker
Like... why is it And they don't explain that. so Wait, explain what? That he's a bounty hunter too. Oh yeah. And just like thrown in there like he's a boring farmer. but he's also a bounty hunter.
00:10:41
Speaker
Anyway, go ahead Aaron. All right. What can I add? Not much. Jessie is a damaged woman, not only because she suffered horrific abuse at the hands of her husband, but because of his abuse, she can no longer have children, which, as we all know, is the only useful thing a woman can provide.
00:11:05
Speaker
Whereas Duel is a damaged human because his wife and child died in childbirth. Like, why is he? He's just really grief stricken he just can't get over it.
00:11:19
Speaker
So ah they go play house and like end up kind of having to get married because, you know, people would talk if they didn't. So like, OK.
00:11:30
Speaker
Well, no, no. They would tar and feather her. But continue. And was tarring and feathering something they did in the Wild West? I thought that was more of a like colonial colonial thing. Yeah, I didn't think that was like a thing they did, but whatever. i hope you like finishing You know, they're just like, what's going to happen next?
00:11:47
Speaker
And the answer is you are going to win romance bingo. That is what is going to happen next. All the way down through an on-page trial.
00:11:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, no, that's important. About her murdering her abusive husband. It is romance bingo perfection. And that is the story of Night on the Texas Plain.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, alright. I think we covered it. but works That works. Yeah, I mean, I think we've pretty much covered it. the There's some really shocking similarities that I'm still like 80% unconvinced Holly didn't set this up. That's how strong the parallels are. I actually, in preparation for picking the list, read 300 Westerns. yeah I thought so.
00:12:31
Speaker
I thought so.
American Western Mythology and Gender Roles
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. Carrying on. Carrying on. But okay, because last time we talked a lot about myth making and how these books kind of create the American West.
00:12:45
Speaker
And maybe this time we could talk a little bit about... I mean, we can talk more about that, but maybe also about gender roles and how they fit into that. And yes, let's do this because i thought it was interesting that these books, I can't remember.
00:13:02
Speaker
i can't remember when they're set. Like, did I look at that? So the Broday is 1880. Yeah. eighty and I don't think that the Spoon Book had a ah ah date stamp.
00:13:15
Speaker
but No, I don't think it did. They, quote, go to Wyoming to get a divorce. So it must still be Wyoming territory. I'm looking it up.
00:13:26
Speaker
Anyway, I thought it was interesting a little bit like, oh, I just took note of it, that we're not talking about the war right now. But we are definitely looking at a different kind of American myth making, which is hard work, salt of the earth, people who do the right thing will succeed and overcome.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yes. But yes, I did notice that neither of them mentioned the Civil War at all. Like there's no former Confederate soldiers, no former Union soldiers. I mean, if we're in the eighteen eighty s in the Texas book, then the characters kind of would have been too young.
00:14:09
Speaker
And they're they're in West Texas. And in the Spoon book, they're up in Colorado. So, you know, if they were already out there, doing their own thing in the territories maybe slavery was less of an issue there i actually have no idea like what was going on in the upper west during upper west was non-slave territories so there is a slightly different uh cultural backstory that we see from well the american northwest than the southwest And I think part of it is is that in the previous two books that we read, their circumstances were very much related to what was happening externally. But in these two books, the plot is very much an internal, I mean, minus the murder part, but like it's it's a smaller setting. We're not having them like wandering all over the place, right? It's not a traveling road trip site type situation. It's a smaller setting and
Theme of Found Family in Westerns
00:15:00
Speaker
the plot is more internal. So it makes sense that they wouldn't bring in a lot of yeah historical context.
00:15:05
Speaker
huh Yeah. Yeah. Besides the fact that Wyoming is really important. Apparently Wyoming is where you got stuff done. So yeah I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're a lady. Especially if you're lady. Because your options are limited and the dudes make all the choices. Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker
Hilariously, the first thing I thought when I was reading was like, oh, it's fallen women who aren't really fallen because they definitely have in the books the comparison.
00:15:31
Speaker
there's There's definitely like a woman whose sole purpose is to draw out how the fallen woman is. She's actually a good woman in disguise. You know what i mean? So there's I just thought that was hilarious. But ah yeah, I was focused on the woman's work and woman's role and how this narrative is being developed, a especially in the Osborne Because in the Osborne, we're not only dealing with the contrast of the good woman, the salt of the earth woman, the woman who puts her nose to the grindstone and gets the job done, but the contrasting woman that Max was going to marry, who is the spoiled city miss.
00:16:18
Speaker
okay town miss really, who does absolutely nothing and has no skills whatsoever. But I think even beyond that, you know, in the Bro there weren't any women who didn't work.
00:16:32
Speaker
They were all... I mean, there weren't a lot of women in general, but Duel's sister is on page a lot and she's working with Jessie to keep house. They have a barn raising because, as Holly mentioned, the barn burns down. So there's like community stuff, but like all of the women go and like make the food and, you know, like.
00:16:51
Speaker
Everybody is contributing because that's what you have to do in a homestead. Whereas in the Osborne, it was much more pointed. And I think that these two characters are so interesting because I think they are also...
00:17:05
Speaker
What two characters? You mean? Louise and Max's fiance, Philadelphia, are so interesting. The supporting female characters, Max's mom and sister, are more like Louise. We don't see a lot of other women.
00:17:19
Speaker
We don't see a lot of other town women, except for when they go into town the one time and are like snubbed. right But felt like even though Philadelphia is kind of supposed to be the bad guy, we're looking at two sides of a coin where we see what options women might have. right So Louise is our salt of the earth. This is how we behave. We do the right thing.
00:17:45
Speaker
We get the work done no matter how much work there is. right And this is illustrated when Philadelphia is dead. forces all of the workers to leave Max's ranch, right? And the only way that Louise and Max can maintain their ranch is to do the work themselves. So here's a woman doing all of her own work to maintain the household. And on top of that, doing all of the barn work as well.
00:18:11
Speaker
And even when Max breaks his arm, I mean, they have family help at that point, but like, he's not like, oh, I'll make dinner and breakfast this time. No, it's still she is doing everything for the ranch. And Max is like upset about it because it's his duty as the husband to like get stuff done. But but he doesn't do More stuff.
00:18:34
Speaker
Also, also. Oh, go ahead. No, this is the part where literally I almost threw the book. So also keep in mind that this entire time that Louise is basically killing herself, like long, hard labor days where she's doing the like backbreaking work. And Max is like, oh, it's so hard to watch you go through this. I'm so mad.
00:18:53
Speaker
Philadelphia's father's putting them in this position or whatever. This whole time, Louise has the money to pay off the mortgage in a bank in Denver.
Character Dynamics and Gender Expectations
00:19:00
Speaker
and Max is like, Oh, I don't ask me to do that. It's my job to provide for you.
00:19:05
Speaker
But go ahead and you do all the work. Don't you think at that point that should kind of be her decision? Like, I'd actually rather just give you the money and then not kill myself working. You know what I mean? And it doesn't even it never like the this would only be a plot point now.
00:19:21
Speaker
Right. Like when this he can't emasculate himself. Yeah. When taking her money. No, like that would be, you know, like, oh, he couldn't possibly, you know, and just like he couldn't possibly clean up after himself or cook.
00:19:33
Speaker
But now, because we've come so far, is. He lived in a mining camp. He didn't have a lady to, he like, he knows how to cook. He knows how to cook. He fed himself all summer at the mining camp. And when he's giving her a break from the cooking, he's like, it's okay. We can just reheat breakfast.
00:19:49
Speaker
Like, yeah. Thank you so much. You can't fucking fire up a stove, Max. Like, really? But like, this is the thing. We have to remember that even in 2000, we have not come as far as we think we have come.
00:20:01
Speaker
Even in 2000, this would have been like, oh, well, you know, obviously he can't. They're married now. That's her job. Yeah. And I wonder how many people back then would have been like, okay, dude, but so you're the one, your pride is telling you that you can't let her pay the mortgage off, but your pride is perfectly fine letting her practically kill herself to keep the farm. Well, because she's volunteering to do it.
00:20:19
Speaker
She volunteered to pay. It'll save the farm. She's like, well, we got to keep the cattle alive. I mean, oh that's it's the work that goes into keeping the cattle alive. That's acceptable.
00:20:30
Speaker
Right. ah Because the whole point is that because because if if she had done that, right, the whole point is to show because Philadelphia could have done that. that She can pay money, but Philadelphia would never have worked. The whole point is that it's supposed to show what kind of a woman Louise is. Right. And if she paid it off, it wouldn't have worked. Right.
00:20:46
Speaker
So, but now in modern times, we could look at that and be like, well, that's a bullshit deal. Like Louise should have had a say in this. What if she didn't want to work that hard? I honestly thought, sorry, I'm going a little bit more that in the direction that I meant to, but like, I thought that they would resolve this by kind of resolving their relationship deal because they also make a deal. Once she's pregnant, yeah she'll leave and request a divorce in Wyoming and they can go on their merry ways, which I thought Max was going to be like, no.
00:21:14
Speaker
This is my baby too, which doesn't happen. But also that they would come to that would be part of their coming together where she would kind of almost buy into the ranch by helping, yeah like contributing directly. So that's both of theirs, you know, but he's so hung up on how his dad was, which is like a whole different issue, but whatever kids and is a whole thing in romance anyway.
00:21:34
Speaker
and is it resolved And isn't resolved. And this is why. Because Louise has to change, right? She has to, like, shed her rough ways and and become the woman she was she always had the potential to be or whatever. But he doesn't have to, like, really change. He just has to realize...
00:21:49
Speaker
realize right So she's still going to accommodate all of his hangups. Otherwise, he would have let her pay the mortgage off. That is a direct result of his own trauma. So like this is the thing. There is an iron rod of sexism down the middle of this book that I think it was way more obvious with these eyes in this time that it was just like, okay, so he doesn't have to deal with any of his bullshit.
00:22:09
Speaker
She has to just learn how to accommodate it. And, like, her way of accommodating it is X, Y, and Z or whatever. It's just... It's a lot. Right. lot. Oh, yeah. She takes everything that Philadelphia gives because she's not going to upset his family.
00:22:22
Speaker
mean, I think the good point is that, like, one of the things she's wanted as a family, because she's an orphan, and her adoptive family... She went west on an orphan... Oh, when were orphan trains? That's a timer. Oh, yeah. Orphan trains. She went west on an orphan train and was given to a family in Missouri who, you know, treated her like a servant, as was relatively typical.
00:22:40
Speaker
And... she ran off when she was 13 and has been making her own way ever since. So she really wants connection. I thought it was pretty interesting in both of these cases, how family, like there's plenty of opportunity for found family, but family still is a ah nuclear unit. Yeah. I mean, yeah I think in the Brodeo was interesting that we are like so off topic from where I wanted to talk about Philadelphia, but we'll get back.
00:23:06
Speaker
We'll go back. Okay. So talk about similarities here. We're talking about themes and similarities. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was interesting in the Brode that the adoption of children was not, it was a, it was not a point of contention for Jesse and Duel at all. Really. She had hangups about the fact that she couldn't have children anymore and was worried about how he might react to that when she finally told him after they were married. So they're stuck.
00:23:35
Speaker
But that was, she could go to Wyoming and get a divorce. Yeah. be fine But they ah they handled family building in a pretty cool way. I mean, I thought it was a little bit like, it was so like, everything works out fine.
00:23:49
Speaker
People are always good, you know, which to a certain extent, I think is something that's fun about romance. But at the same time, it's just like, okay. You know, it's just like, yes, that's how that would work out. Absolutely.
00:24:01
Speaker
um So they end up adapting a bunch of kids. And it's really sweet, right? But and they make a family and it's their nuclear family, but it's not a blood family. Fair. in i think i thought it was interesting with Louise, though, that she had so many opportunities to build connection.
00:24:16
Speaker
i mean, she was the only one who stayed and everyone was so thankful during the smallpox outbreak in the mining community. like They would have thought she was grand and looked after her probably for the rest of the time she stayed there.
00:24:29
Speaker
But that didn't count as a family going to Max's house. Yeah. And having mother and sister to talk to about baking and sewing, even though she didn't know how to do those things, you know, and like having a baby and all this stuff was what constituted a family.
00:24:46
Speaker
Right. And she, unlike Jesse, you know, Jesse's like, no, this baby that I'm taking care of, I'm I'm its mother now. Yeah. And Louise is like, no, I want my baby want a baby that I gave birth to.
00:24:59
Speaker
And her trauma is about her being raised as an orphan. So I could kind of see where she would get that because she'd never had blood ties. And Jesse like did have loving parents.
00:25:13
Speaker
but I do think it's really interesting because that's one of the things i picked up on was the two sides of the, we do have the orphaned theme in both books. And that, yeah, like I, you know, obviously adoption is a pretty complicated issue, but we've seen in books when when it's being unpacked in a literary sense that there tends to be ah in my, in my read this, like sometimes they really want to adopt because they were adopted, right?
00:25:38
Speaker
Sometimes they really crave that blood tie because they were. a du So like, Either way, I would have seen it make sense. You know, it doesn't, you know, and I just think it's interesting that it kind of explores it just, you know, people are different or whatever. But I i think it's interesting. So there I was kind of like keeping tabs in my head of like, because ah when I said fallen women, this is the fallen in women books, right?
00:25:57
Speaker
In the beginning, these but women are considered like they're undesirable because of what they've been through. And then as you go, the... it's the If you make a little mental pro and con list for like, oh, good woman, bad woman, good woman, bad woman. It feels like in both books as we go through them, that's kind of what's happening with not just the hero, but with the other people are all kind of providing contextual evidence for why this is actually ah actually a good woman.
00:26:24
Speaker
like oh she's actually a really good woman whether it's to the to the husband so like in the spoon book they're trying to like for a while they're all kind of trying to be like hey dude max like she's a good she's actually a really great woman right because they all know max was all hung up on philadelphia and in the other one it's more that they're all trying to convince brother or whatever not to arrest her right because she's a really good woman and it's hilarious because the examples were very parallel so i want to see if you guys can riff off of this with me just for fun because some of them were really funny one of them that I noticed was how fast they can clean this house that hasn't had a woman's touch in years right hilarious if that were the measure guys I would be a bad woman yeah
00:27:08
Speaker
They both are really good at making pie. Specifically pie. Specifically pie. Yep. Yep. Because that is a thing that Western women would make. make pie.
00:27:18
Speaker
Cake is for the city women. Yeah. But okay, but why? Well, you know, I guess pie needs more flour. and pie, I don't know. Pie is more, pie is in. Homey.
00:27:29
Speaker
Okay. Pie doesn't need a leavening agent? Yes. Baking cake takes more chemistry. Pie is you throw together the crust and you put something inside it. It's an easy thing to put in a temperamental oven.
00:27:44
Speaker
Yeah. Cake is fussy. Pie is down home. I guess cake is also something that at this time professional bakers made, not city-wide. It takes a lot more sugar. Or like city servants to make. You need more sugar. You need more eggs.
00:27:59
Speaker
There's a lot more. Yeah. There's just more chemistry that goes in. So this is part of like the Western mythology. you You make do, right? You have flour and sugar and butter because that's what's... I mean, you might buy sugar at the mark in the mercantile, but...
00:28:12
Speaker
You've got your... You probably buy flour. bag go say well Well, yeah, but like you've got your huge bag of flour for literally everything, right? Then you've got your butter from your cattle and that's your crust. Everything can go in a crust. So whether it's, you know, a chicken stew with gravy and vegetables and chicken in it, or whether it's, you know, you're getting whatever fruit you're harvesting right now, it gets thrown in there and Bob's your uncle, you have something to eat.
00:28:38
Speaker
And when they serve it to the men folk, it's always so considerate because they've worked so hard and it's easy for them to eat and it's filling and they feel so it's so tasty. You know what i mean? So there's that part too.
00:28:49
Speaker
It's hearty and humble. Yes. Another one that I thought was a real, I i might need some help dialing this one in, but it's the used dresses. So both of them.
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah. There was a lot of focus on like a lot of stuff with their clothes. Because, oh, it doesn't fit quite right. Or, oh, they make, they make the best of what they have used clothes. And in both cases, Inn in One, rest her soul, is a dead example.
00:29:13
Speaker
But it's both men originally were supposed to be or were married to wealthier women who were catered to by their fathers, right? And had beautiful clothes. And that's juxtaposed against the women they end up with who are wearing hand-me-downs and they make the best of what they have. So like sew it up, clean it up, try to make it look better, whatever, you know, might not be the first stare fashion, but it looks so good on them because she's a good woman. you So that was another one that I thought of.
00:29:41
Speaker
I think they both had these like just natural empathy and consideration. Like in the Spoon Book, like I said, Louise just like takes it on the chin to be the bigger person for Max's family when Philadelphia is just unbelievably rude to her creating this contrast of like, well, she's willing to play nice and Philadelphia is not.
00:30:05
Speaker
But then also... Stuff like Jessie's willingness in the Brode, Jessie's willingness to, like, she welcomes in the baby's mother, right? The dual one.
00:30:17
Speaker
And the mother ends up being like, no, I can't take care of the baby. So you keep her. I know she's going to be in a loving home, which is like, wow, that was a lot. ah but but yeah But, you know, Duel is like freaked out because he's like, I'm going to lose my daughter, who he's been trying not to get attached to. Right.
00:30:33
Speaker
But of course he has. And he's going to his heart's going to break because she's going to take away the baby. And Jesse is like, come in, come out of the rain. Let me make you a cup of coffee. Right. But also for Jesse up to and including inviting Duel's brother in even though she knows that he is going to arrest her.
00:30:51
Speaker
And it's the so it's basically like it's that self-emptying love. So it's the one where like, I know my job is just to be the most selfless woman at my own expense. So that's definitely yes, in both books. Absolutely.
00:31:03
Speaker
I feel like I'm having a hard time putting on exactly the moment in the night on the Texas plains. But I think a big moment was the children and clothes or children in mess. So like in the spoon book, he knows that he could never have married Philadelphia the second that his niece reaches for her skirts and and Philadelphia like brushes her off oh yeah that was a really pivotal moment for him and for in Night on the Texas Plains it's like the way that she just mothers the baby right off the bat so it's kind of like the the reverse the way that she just mothers that baby right off the bat is why he's like all right well I better marry her so that they don't tar and feather her and run her out of town for being a loose woman
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, also in the Spoon book, there's the big contrast between Philadelphia and Louise in that scene. You know, like, yeah the niece runs up to philadelphians Philadelphia and Philadelphia's like, oh like, don't wrinkle my dress. And then Louise immediately comes in and like, gives the niece a hug and then, like, brings her into the kitchen to go make cookies or yeah whatever. You know, it's Christmas, I think.
00:32:02
Speaker
And she's also, he, I think in that there's more surprise. He's like, oh, like, she was so rough and, manly but actually she is really kind to children like huh huh right but it's the same kind of mothering dynamic just i think duel is not surprised by jesse's mother oh oh and the last one that i that i had flagged in my head was oh
Women's Roles and Independence in Westerns
00:32:29
Speaker
are you wooing me within both of them so that has been both of them the husband's like oh well i really want to sleep with her so i guess i better woo her and And they like do the whole flowers and both of them, it's like a little handful of wildflowers and women are like, oh, this is the nicest thing anyone's ever given me.
00:32:45
Speaker
You know what mean? I'm like, oh, you she's so easy to please. I barely have to do anything. What a good woman. I can put in the minimum effort here. oh woo What a hilarious. Yeah.
00:32:57
Speaker
I will say, I do think a point of contrast though, is that it is much more obvious to the secondary characters right away that jesse is a good woman right everybody in town is just like oh jesse she's so wonderful there's that like weird thing with that guy oh yeah who is trying to get all up on her sleep with her and then tries to assault her and doesn't succeed luckily oh but he's fine though because he brings that's true that's true i'll forgive he's like let's let bygones be guy bygones we're a community sorry i tried to ah assault your wife
00:33:34
Speaker
With a history of assault. No big deal, right? now We're good. triggers Right. But like everybody in town accepts her immediately. And a lot of her struggle is accepting herself as a good woman.
00:33:44
Speaker
And Louise has some of that also in accepting herself as a good woman. Like Louise knows that she's a good person. She does. She just doesn't accept herself as a ah person who is valued by others. yeah Which is a little different. Like, I think Louise has a strong sense.
00:34:02
Speaker
Well, maybe not. I was going to say she has a strong sense of her own self-worth, but she doesn't, actually. Well, this is tapping into the good woman thing. She just thinks she's doing the right thing and anybody would do it. it is very clear that not anybody would do it. and that she is She needs to be told that.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Right. so she But also, like it takes all the secondary characters a little bit of time to warm up to Louise. Everybody loves Jessie immediately because she's like a beautiful angel lady.
00:34:30
Speaker
But everybody is very hesitant about Louise when they first... meet her. Her in-laws and the townsfolk and i mean her husband. Yeah.
00:34:43
Speaker
I thought that was such an interesting premise for this story that she all she wants is a baby and she says like if you ask for nothing you'll get nothing so I might as well go for it right? What's the worst that could happen?
00:34:57
Speaker
But then everybody's like oh my gosh it was just like so offensive. Nobody everybody was like uh the self-appointed mayor dude is like do we have any volunteers who are willing to give her a baby and like everybody kind of takes the stuff backwards i was like this is so uncomfortable so this is so mean the spoon book was like i mean the whole first third maybe of the book was like oh my god Deeply uncomfortable. Because it's not just that. So first it's that she's like, I want a baby.
00:35:30
Speaker
And everyone's like, oh, hell no. Right? That's uncomfortable. And then Max, he just makes one bad decision after next. Like, take yourself out of the running for the damn marble. so that's what I was going to say.
00:35:41
Speaker
Yeah. Everybody is blaming her for this thing because she said she wanted a baby. She got the ball rolling. but She never intended to get married. She just wanted to get pregnant.
00:35:53
Speaker
But Max, he does say, i'm going to get I'm supposed to get married. But at no point after the Reverend comes in, because Max gets pressured to stay in the running because he's technically still single. And this is while they're still talking about it in terms of just getting her pregnant, the the concept of marriage has not yet been introduced. So they're like, no, Max, you have to go stand with the single men, not the married men, right?
00:36:17
Speaker
Spine less. Spine less, Max. At no point after the marriage conversation comes into play does he say, this would be the dishonorable act because I'm already pledged to someone else.
00:36:30
Speaker
And then we find out that he had sex with her before he left. And he doesn't think, oh, hey, maybe there could have been consequences from that. Now, as it turns out...
00:36:42
Speaker
Well, don't say it. Don't say it. I don't want to. But like, as it turns out, this is all a very good thing. yeah But like, they're just like, Max is the one who is making terrible decisions.
00:36:53
Speaker
And he's like, well, I have to be honorable. I'm like, bro, this is not honorable, but okay. Even at this time, he had to know that he compromised a wealthy woman.
00:37:05
Speaker
Like, Take Louise totally out of the picture here. Like, he can't sit there and and act like he had absolutely no choice. He should have been like, I was i was married. To be fair, I will give you this, his mother does call him out on it multiple times and in multiple ways and is like, you were a dumbass. Like, that was, I don't know what the hell you were thinking, basically.
00:37:24
Speaker
And even the dad was like, you compromised her. Why the hell did you go up in the mountains in the first place? And he even knows that. But it's also gentle with Max. ah Like, oh, well, but you did the right thing. Oh, well, we can see you had no choice.
00:37:36
Speaker
So they say, like, you were dumb, but it's okay because you're a good guy. You know what I mean? And with Louise, it's just like, oh, poor thing. So Louise gets all this blame for being a homewrecker kind of a person and...
00:37:47
Speaker
And that, I mean, that's very understandable. I feel like if my brother came home with a new spouse when he was supposed to be marrying someone else, I would have some feelings about like all of that that happened. Like neither of you is probably making good choices at that point. Right.
00:38:06
Speaker
So that's all very understandable. Why welcoming right all the other secondary characters would have reservations about Louise because they already like Max, you know, like it's easier to blame somebody that you don't know. But I want to circle back now that we're kind of there. I want to circle back what I was originally trying to get at about Philadelphia being the other side of a female character coin.
00:38:24
Speaker
Because she is set up to be the villainess, basically, of the Spoon Book. But okay, so about Philadelphia. I really felt for her, though.
00:38:35
Speaker
I was just like, oh my god, she's in such a bad position and so because of Max's actions. So, well, okay. That's interesting that you feel that way. Because I would like to... focus on a couple parts of her character.
00:38:46
Speaker
Okay, what I want to say is the other side of the coin. We've got the salt of the earth woman, the good woman, the hardworking woman, the woman who puts in the effort to like live up to this womanly ideal, right? But if you're not a working woman in society in this moment, then you are ah housewife. And we see this in other historical romances as well, right? Like Regency romances where the ladies of the house, they go to tea and they go visiting and they go to the dress shops and they do the things and they're like decorative and ornamental.
00:39:14
Speaker
And that's basically what Philadelphia is. She is the daughter, the granddaughter of the town's founder. Her father is a banker, not a farmer. She did not grow up in an environment where she needed to learn how to cook for herself, clean for herself, take care of herself.
00:39:31
Speaker
And what options did she have and how did she learn how to use them? She learned manipulation. And that is why she tried to get Max to stay by sleeping with him before he left. She wanted what she wanted and she wasn't willing to consider his viewpoint. i mean, this is one other thing, right, that Louise understands Max and understands why he had to go into the mountains and Philadelphia doesn't, right? Just another point.
00:39:57
Speaker
But Philadelphia, there are so many times when she's in Max's mom's house, she marries his brother because she's like, but Max, I'm pregnant, right? That's what we're all alluding to When she she she ends up in a bad spot herself, Max comes home and is confessing what he's done. And she's like, but Max, I'm pregnant.
00:40:16
Speaker
And so she ends up marrying Max's brother. Max's brother has been still living with their mom. And so she moves into that house and she doesn't know how to do the work. Louise doesn't know how to do the work, but Louise tries and makes friends.
00:40:31
Speaker
Philadelphia is mad. i mean, I think understandably so.
00:40:36
Speaker
And refuses to learn how to do the work. She's like, no, I'm a, I'm a lady and I'm going to teach these people decorum. And like, we sit in the parlor. We don't sit in the kitchen. Yeah. And like, how dare they think I do servant tasks? I just thought it was so interesting that Wally was willing to listen to her complain about being expected to do the tasks of servants, which were exactly the same jobs that his mother and sister did.
00:41:00
Speaker
But at the same time, it's like, okay, like Louise was in a place where she was like, what have I got to lose? I'm going to go. She's she's on her own at 13. I'm going to go do stuff.
00:41:11
Speaker
so that I can survive. I'm going to work in a laundry. I'm going to go here and try this. I'm going to go prospect and try this. She's taking care of herself and doing what she can to stay alive. And so the result is she doesn't care what people think. I mean, she does a little bit care what people think, but there's very little that somebody could do to her that she would really feel bad about.
00:41:31
Speaker
On the other hand, you've got Philadelphia and her entire self-worth is her social standing because that's literally all she has ever had. And if she loses that, then what else does she have?
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah. And that's kind of it. Like those are the options. You've got your I'm a hardworking woman. I'm in the servant class or whatever kind of women characters. Or you've got your I'm in the ornamental class and I get taken care of by a man characters.
00:41:56
Speaker
But without options, there's not much else, right? Without options for them to work alongside... Yeah. Well, I mean, but it's interesting because Max's mother and sister are in the middle because they are proper ladies who also work.
00:42:13
Speaker
They don't work in a laundry like Louise did. They don't go prospecting, but they labor all day on the ranch. And Max's mom ran the ranch, but she still is seen in town as like, she's not servant class, I guess is my point.
00:42:30
Speaker
Right. Right. But you've had like she's she is the ranch owner and you know, like emasculated his father. Right. But there aren't going to be any women ranch hands. No, no, no. Okay. She's the ranch owner.
00:42:42
Speaker
So she's a woman. yeah But she's still the work. She's a working woman and she's taking care of her business. She's not ornamental. This is what saying. There aren't what options does Philadelphia have? She doesn't have a lot of options.
00:42:54
Speaker
And the only reason she has any options is at all really is because her father is so willing to spend his money on her and appease her because if he didn't want to do that, her life would have been significantly different.
00:43:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, I thought it was really interesting that Louise is painted as very, like, she's singular. She's not like other women. They say, like, any other woman in her circumstances would have ended up a prostitute, and she didn't. She chose to do men's work.
00:43:21
Speaker
And I feel like historically that's correct like 0% true. I'm sure there were many women like Louise in the American West who did all kinds of work in all kinds of different places, including men's work, including prospecting, including working in laundries or hotels or all of these other places to do the servant labor.
00:43:48
Speaker
Well, that is, I just read, ah to i saw recently a discussion on one of the socials, I think, about how women have always worked.
00:43:59
Speaker
And really, the conversation about women being homemakers is about the privileged class of women being the homemakers or, you know, just having lunches and teas. That's always been...
00:44:15
Speaker
a small section of society. Well, yes. But I think my focus. So that's fair. I think you're kind of making an argument, Holly, that there are work opportunities available.
00:44:26
Speaker
Well, no, I guess also it's just that this is set up in kind like in contrast to Philadelphia where, you know, if she's not ornamental, what's she going to do? yeah So that's what that what I picked up on. And I think it's kind of like a combination of what you guys are saying is that I think that the point of juxtaposing Philadelphia and Louise is that Louise shows a willingness to do what needs to be done. She shows a willingness to adjust and to roll with the punches and to do work.
00:44:54
Speaker
And Philadelphia refuses because she's too good for it. Because we're not looking for like a beautiful woman. we We're looking for a good woman, you know, like a good one. Someone who's like willing to do what needs to be done and that Philadelphia is not it.
00:45:10
Speaker
so yeah so So that was like ah going back to Holly saying at the beginning of this that she felt so bad for Philadelphia. I honestly very rarely felt bad for Philadelphia because it's made very clear even before we meet her on page that Right.
00:45:24
Speaker
Max is thinking about the fact that they did have that night together before he left. And the whole point of that night, and he knows it, was that she was trying to convince him to stay.
00:45:35
Speaker
So from the jump, we know that she's extremely manipulative. yeah And so I wasn't terribly think sympathetic to her, but I did think it was interesting from the context of this is what she learned, because what else did she potentially have in order to get anything for herself if she wasn't allowed to do anything else? I'm sorry, Holly was going to...
00:45:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, I agree. Like, I feel like the narrative is not kind to Philadelphia. And I agree that she's set up as the evil other woman from the jump. But i I guess I felt bad because she is in this, she is in a bad situation. What options does she have when she's pregnant, right? Right. She's pregnant and her fiance jilted her ah a week before her wedding.
00:46:20
Speaker
And what is like... Well, and she's young. She's very young. And she's she's only 20. Yeah, that's true. She's young and she's stupid. And and the other thing is is that I think the key here is what I noticed was look at what her suggested a happy ending is.
00:46:35
Speaker
They know that she's not going to go get that divorce in Wyoming. Max even says he knows she's going to run back to his brother. And the suggestion is, is that the brother's going to get her into shape. That basically like, he's going to turn her into a good woman.
00:46:47
Speaker
They're going to go down. That is not how I read it. did. read it as he was like, I don't know why I love you, but I do. And Max is like, well, they're going to fight a lot, but it seems like they like you. They like it. Like, well, no, because remember like when, when Wally's talking to her, right. He's like, you've been spoiled.
00:47:03
Speaker
Basically. He's like, I'm going to take you away from your dad who've solved all your problems. And I'm to take you away from everything you've known. Wally's, Basically, this the implication, because all throughout the book, as Wally's character grows, it's that he starts to stand up to Philadelphia and he's not able to be manipulated the way that she wants him to be manipulated.
00:47:19
Speaker
So the implication that I read based on what he said and based on his change as time goes on and the decisions that the dad and Wally make, it almost seems like Wally and the dad have agreed that Philadelphia needs to be dealt with. And Wally is the man to do the job and he's going to take care of it.
00:47:34
Speaker
away from her place yes but i did not get the sense that he was going to make her become a working wife i got the sense that she is going to continue to be a society ornamental wife in a new location and she's not going to be able to pull her nonsense right but that for her is her happy ending is the point i'm trying to make yeah her happy her suggested happy ending is Someone's going to take her. No, she's never going to be a Louise because that's never going to happen.
00:48:05
Speaker
But they're just going to take her and smooth the rough edges and try to make her into at least like a decent human being who is also spoiled. She's never going to not be spoiled. But the idea is Wally is going to help make her into at least. She's going to keep trying to manipulate Wally. But Wally now has enough of a backbone to call her on her. but Exactly.
00:48:21
Speaker
They're happily ever after is that Wally is the counterbalance to her nonsense, basically. So, yeah. And that Wally, he seems pretty, he's like, well, I think we could have a really happy marriage, but you're going to have to like pull your head out of your butt. And she's like, ah so when I was seeing that, happen like when that happy ending came to fruition too. And I was like, well, actually, honestly, I think she probably would be happy in her own house in Denver.
00:48:43
Speaker
You know? No. and Yeah. Santa Fe. No, they're going to way down. That's what Wally wanted. But the dad gave her two choices. You can either go with Wally. Oh, and you thought that she might be more happy by herself. Exactly. Exactly.
00:48:54
Speaker
Because then she could call her own shots. But I think the point is that Wally was giving her an opportunity to rejoin society. So that was her shot is you can rejoin society with me and you can, and you can regain some of your footing and start over and try to, you know, be a less crappy person.
00:49:07
Speaker
Or you can dig your heels in the sand and be by yourself and no one's going to come visit you in Denver and you'll be on your own, but you'll have complete control over everything you want to do. So she basically has to choose. Autonomy and being alone and miserable because you're a woman and society will shun you or being with me and I'm i'm in charge now, but you can have all the trappings of the status that you had before.
00:49:26
Speaker
which made me and that That's when i was I did feel kind of sad for her because I was like, that would be a terrible decision for her. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and Louise had years of autonomy and it made her sad and miserable.
00:49:40
Speaker
ah which I mean, she was she was poor autonomy. So like, that's a little different than wealthy autonomy. A lot different, but yeah. Listeners, just so you know, the reason we call this the spoon book.
00:49:52
Speaker
is because There's a spoon on the cover, first of all but there's Well, yes, there's a spoon on the cover. But when, after Louise and Max get married, the prospectors, all the prospectors in camp leave gifts for Louise outside of her tent.
00:50:05
Speaker
And one of them is a silver spoon. And it's... the most beautiful thing she's ever owned. And there's this like gut-wrenching scene very early in the book where she and Max are like by the campfire and she's like, hey, do you want to see something beautiful?
00:50:21
Speaker
And it might make you feel better. And she shows him the spoon and he's like, what? It's just a spoon. And she's crushed. Yeah. baby But she like displays it on her, on their mantelpiece because it's the most beautiful thing that she And more than that, when she walks in, the house is furnished, but she knows that there's clear places where things are supposed to be.
00:50:41
Speaker
And she figures out on her own that the reason there are gaps in the decoration is because it was meant for Philadelphia and that the stuff that's missing was stuff that Max knew Philadelphia had in her home. And so on the mantelpiece, it's blank because it was supposed to have something that was really special for Philadelphia to display.
00:50:57
Speaker
And all Louise has is this beautiful silver spoon. So that's what she puts up there. Poor little thing. And I don't, it's probably not even that beautiful. I think it's just a silver spoon. i think it's just so But anyhow, there was something else I was going to point out about that. And then I forgot what, oh, because we're going to just go full English thesis today, I guess.
00:51:14
Speaker
What I noticed too is, so in the Louise book, in the spoon book, it's the presence of the cherished items. That is like a symbol for their relationship. The spoon becomes like a symbol, you know, for their relationship.
00:51:25
Speaker
In b nightbook the Book, Night on the the absence of the beautiful item. So the beautiful item in the Night Book is the blue dress that belonged to his ex-wife. And she puts it on and then he's crushed and doesn't talk to her for three days.
00:51:39
Speaker
And he sells the blue dress so that she can have something like a gift from him while he's courting her. And so him giving up the beautiful thing, the most beautiful thing in the house, basically, is the symbol for like them starting new.
00:51:51
Speaker
The spoon is one symbol and this is another symbol, but it's the beautiful thing, right? It's the beautiful thing and the roughness of this setting. Alas, we could pick these books apart for hours, I think. This was good English. I think the Brode less, I mean, less so. I had so many highlights in the spoon book. I was like, oh, this is something. This is something.
00:52:10
Speaker
ah oh We should talk about this. but And I think we have talked about a lot of it. But i this the interesting thing about the Brode to me was how, like ah like we said at the beginning, it's like romance bingo. everything Everything was hard, but everything got resolved in the best way.
00:52:27
Speaker
yeah immediately almost do yeah or even like not i mean not the murder the murderer takes the whole book to get resolved but all the other little things but even the trial like okay the jury is a bunch of white men there's nothing illegal about domestic be abuse which is and she murdered her husband to run away in front of witnesses kind of do it to run away and she pleads guilty and yet everyone listens to her story and is like oh I was like, this is like, feeling very unreal.
00:52:59
Speaker
and Like, i I don't like to say unrealistic about romance novels because it's such a loaded way to talk about them. But it's just like, what? Like, looking at the time and who had the power, like, who is going to give up their power for this woman who has admitted to committing the crime because they feel bad for her. So it was just one of those things where i was like,
00:53:22
Speaker
aw, everything's going to turn out fine kind of romance novels. And then they have more children that they can adopt and they have a big family just like they always wanted.
00:53:33
Speaker
Well, and i I do want to point this out because I feel like you know how I feel about trigger warnings. I think most trigger warnings are probably a little bit overused and i you guys can come at me for that one if you want to, but i have there's scientific studies that do back this up. But in this case,
00:53:49
Speaker
If any of the things that poor Jesse went through, if those are trigger warnings for anyone, I don't see any scenario where you ever get over those specific trigger warnings. Like, let us not understate the sheer hell. Like Holly said, this is like torture, literal torture that this woman goes through.
00:54:06
Speaker
And one, i think that the actual descriptions of the torture are bad enough. But I also think that on some level, I mean, and again, this is me perhaps overempathizing, but the way that it's just resolved because she falls in love with it a good guy, that would be in and of itself a bit triggering to me.
00:54:24
Speaker
um I don't know. It's just horrific. So like, yeah, if, ah yeah, if you have a problem with like severe abuse and majorly permanent damage type sexual assault, probably not this, you probably need to skip this one.
00:54:36
Speaker
Don't do it. Just don't do it. Yeah. I also was like, wow, that was. It was graphic. Yeah. Well, more to the point of like how quickly she got over it.
00:54:48
Speaker
I found very jarring. i I will say I did highlight this book a lot, but mostly i highlighted things where I was like, oh my God, are Are you kidding me like And I said at the beginning that I'm like, oh very early book. I can see that, that she's just like, oh, these are all the romance tropes that I read.
00:55:10
Speaker
Let me put them in. yeah i Yeah, it was a lot. it was ah They really threw it all in. The key thing about the Broday is that it was so easy. Everything was so easy. Like there were hard things, but they were resolved easily. And I think there's room for that in romance. I know a lot of readers now all see just maybe by the virtue of everybody being so online talking about stuff. And so it's a ah small amount of loud voices.
00:55:34
Speaker
But there seems to be a lot of like, it's silly. It's unrealistic. There's no depth. But I think there's room for if you're just reading for escapism or you want the happy ending.
00:55:45
Speaker
There is a dopamine hit there. And I think Ingrid and Holly also make an excellent point that like, if you do have triggers based on this kind of assault, like this is definitely not going to be a book that works. But for people for people who don't have that hanging in their brains... You know, like it is something that's like, okay, this is what's happening and we can move forward. So it's definitely not for everyone. But would I say that it was like an awesome book? No.
00:56:17
Speaker
When I finished it, I was like, aww. And that didn't make me unable to register all of the ridiculous things or like the fact that it was super like, like I said, the trial. I was just like, oh, my God. But that was so that was something else.
00:56:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, for me, it was the scene where like he like comes out of the burning barn. Yeah. with the goat no but she gets the goat no carrying the dog horse and then he's like kind of passed out and she's like leaning over him and she left the toddler alone in the house and like the baby is crying and the barn is burning and the animals are just there i don't even know and she and she's just like nothing else matters but the two of us and i'm like like maybe the I know you didn't childproof that house. You know what I mean? Which then becomes quite obvious. well Which we find we find out. I was like, oh yeah. And then of course she's like, oh, I'm a terrible wife.
00:57:14
Speaker
I didn't clean the floor well enough. And it's like, oh, for Pete's sake. Anyhow. Everything turns out fine, including the potentially extremely messy relationship between the brothers because the one arrests the other's wife and takes her to trial where she has a very strong possibility of being killed.
00:57:33
Speaker
aed Which is funny to me because honestly, in most books like this, I feel like it would be like, oh, they handle it some other secret way so that the good woman can have her life. And in this one, there's an actual trial. like To be fair, the whole time I was like, them having a lynch mob and stringing her up before she could have a trial, that's probably closer to what would have actually happened.
00:57:52
Speaker
Yeah. Crazy. yeah Anyway. Yeah, no, I was actually, I was fully expecting the brother Texas Ranger to just be like, I found her trail, she drowned in the river.
00:58:05
Speaker
Right? So I thought that was interesting. I'm glad you guys brought that up because I totally would have spaced on it. And I was thinking about this as I was reading that, so some overlapping beats, not a ton, honestly.
00:58:16
Speaker
with um Okay, so in Nighthawk by Beverly Jenkins, He is he's actually a U.S. Marshal, not a Texas Ranger, but he gets sent to arrest a woman for murder.
00:58:28
Speaker
And his whole thing is like, just like Luke, the brother with Jesse, he's like, well, I got to protect my person. Like we need to get justice and actually have a trial, not mob lynching kind of a situation. hmm.
00:58:44
Speaker
And so there's like that aspect of it. But he gets to the point where he's like, and of course, the Beverly Jenkins characters are both black characters. So that adds a layer. But like the U.S. Marshall the Beverly Jenkins books get to the point where he's like, yeah, there is there is no way that she gets a fair trial.
00:59:02
Speaker
And I'm just gonna work this out. don't know. He might yeah end up going and talking to a judge. But like, yes, and that's what I thought was going to happen, too. He was going to be like, look, justice is actually not going to be served by me doing these actions.
00:59:16
Speaker
So I will unilaterally serve justice by saying she drowned in the river or whatever. Yeah, I mean, and narratively, i kind of understand why they had to do to the trial, because, you know, if a big theme of this is like family repair.
00:59:29
Speaker
Then the trial gives Duel a chance to repair his relationship with his former father-in-law. And it gives Jesse a chance to repair her relationship with her mother because she is now fully exonerated for this. And it also means that she can – she doesn't have this hanging over her anymore.
00:59:49
Speaker
I don't know. I haven't read Nighthawk. But in this book, she feels guilt for doing this. She feels like she is a bad person because she killed this guy even though didn't.
01:00:00
Speaker
definitely had it coming so i think narratively she needed to have the trial for other people to tell her no it was okay that you took this action yeah that's true that's a good point yeah because she feels like a terrible person for killing her husband even though i mean when she gets to talking about all of the times she tried to run away and all of the things that happened to her before and after each of those times it was like This was a long time coming. And the reason that that finally comes to a head is because he has already ins ensured that she can no longer have children. So then he's like, well, now you're useless. So I'm going to give you to my friends.
01:00:42
Speaker
So it becomes not just he is violating her, but also potentially these other people. And she knows that like it's that's it's going to be all over. Right. So it's it's just so built up that.
01:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's like yeah no wonder. Pretty horrific. pretty but it is some of these older books like they don't i mean some of these older books they really they got a little wild it was uh the trauma factor was not shied away from back in the day i would i am kind of interested to read one of brode's more recent books just to like see what how it develops right now just to see just how it's changed and how much of the stuff that's going on the book in this book is her versus how much is kind of the
Microtropes in Western Romance
01:01:28
Speaker
zeitgeist of the early 2000s okay so last one one more thing before we wrap up last time we talked about microtropes yeah western microtropes so we had we like dusty clothes i feel like dusty clothes were less of a thing in this book but still a thing yeah they stomped off their boots in the mudroom or wherever they had to clean up all the mess before they came in the house yeah but Was there sour breath?
01:01:52
Speaker
Any villains with sour breath? ah What about the eyepatch dude? I mean, eyepatch dude probably had sour breath. There really any in the spoon book there. I i mean, they had some at the camp where it was like they were just kind of disgusting because they were living out of tents.
01:02:07
Speaker
I wonder if I do a quick search. I bet there was someone with sour breath in that. Yeah, but he wouldn't be a villain. No, you're right. I think I'd like to add pies. I think pies should be a microtrope. I really do.
01:02:20
Speaker
Probably. i mean, I think what's interesting to me is these books, well, not the Lorraine Heath, but the Linda Howard. Also, there's so much time spent on the work that they do. Yeah, chores, I was going to say.
01:02:35
Speaker
Chores. Definitely. Chores is like a big thing. And I'm very curious to see if we see we continue to see lots of chores the Westerns. And I think glamorizing the chores, to be honest, too.
01:02:46
Speaker
It's very much a... Oh, the pride, you know, it's definitely amorous. But I think that's like a very like Westerns thing, right? Hard work. Hard work.
01:02:57
Speaker
Little House on the Prairie 100% chores. Yes. Yeah, pretty much. Just chores. Calloused hands. Oh, yeah. Louise's hands were notably different than Philadelphia's.
01:03:09
Speaker
Work roughened. it Wait, so did Jessie have callouses? I don't think because she's dainty. But he had callouses, I believe. oh yeah is it dirt or is it tan
01:03:21
Speaker
that's another one ew again not jesse jesse jesse was a prairie princess but but yeah is it dirt or is it tan anyhow i think yes i well so that is kind of micro trope getting clean oh yeah getting clean i finally get to soak in my you know copper tub Yeah.
01:03:40
Speaker
I mean, and that was a lot in the other books, too. There's a lot of this, like... Well, and The Ill-Fitting Clothes was also in both of in both of these books. Yeah. Well, i and I feel like the dusty clothes and the getting clean kind of all fit together. There's like a lot of this contrast of like, we're rough in it, but we desire cleanliness because that shows that we're civilized and we're like mastering our environment.
01:04:02
Speaker
All goes into American myth-making, right? It's just these little it's just these little moments. Yeah. It's pretty fun. It's hilarious. I have one on on the tip of my tongue. I can't quite verbalize about the coffee.
01:04:12
Speaker
Like making a good cup of coffee in a percolator. They all make a good cup of coffee, don't they? Everybody is like, oh I got to brew the coffee. Or even in the Howard, it was like, oh, we still have some coffee. Mm-hmm.
01:04:25
Speaker
something about the coffee okay now i'm interested history of coffee in america so nerdy bunch of nerds guys bunch of nerds huh okay so yeah it's the american revolution basically the boston tea party everybody switched to coffee and then we never looked back that's we never looked back of course it's so ah good coffee is how you show you're a good american interesting interesting So baking bread, like having the flour and just like having to have a moment where you're like kneading a loaf while you talk to the neighbor lady.
01:05:02
Speaker
guess maybe not in what was the one with like the longest road trip in the universe. that was She didn't have to make bread. They had to cook. Yeah, the Lorraine Heath book. Texas Destiny. Thank you. Anyway, i feel like that is like, like okay, we've got her we've got our flour. We're going to make some bread. But, you know, it's interesting because Lowdown lowdown made biscuits.
01:05:21
Speaker
Biscuits are fast and easy. And Jessie, who is a real good homemaker, made sourdough. You know, it's like Vicky brings her a sourdough starter and she's like, oh, yeah, now I can make bread and just has it out all the time. Like, you know how long it takes to make a sourdough loaf with no yeast in it?
01:05:39
Speaker
So long. ah All right what else are we talking about here? Which book did you like better? i mean, know I'll be honest, Silver Lining made me so uncomfortable, but I think it's probably going stick in my brain a lot more. Night on the Texas Plains, I feel like, was kind of more classic cookie-cutter romance, like, you know, like you said, just...
01:05:59
Speaker
It feels feel good. Everything gets tied up in a neat little bow. But Silver Lining had some real nice mess in it. So the resolution was pretty satisfying. Yeah, I agree. Like Silver Lining was so messy. And I was just like, I bad decision book clubbed that book so hard.
01:06:15
Speaker
Whereas Night on the Texas Plains, every night I'd like read a chapter and fall asleep. Yeah.
01:06:22
Speaker
So I think that's an indicator about which book I enjoyed more. i mean, neither of them made me cry as much as Texas Destiny did. But, you know, Lorraine Heath can just like- The mail-order drives will be Holly's downfall. Oh my God.
01:06:36
Speaker
No, it's just, you know, Lorraine Heath knows how to write the emotion. I those feelings. So that's where I am. Erin? think overall, I would agree with the Maggie Osborne- the linda brode was more of like a i felt good at the end i didn't i haven't had any like swoops in any of these like no like oh my god this declaration is everything yet that hasn't happened yet but the silver linings was just so earned It was. although i will And there were so many opportunities for things to be like, this is not going to go well and I'm not going to like it. And then it kind of worked out. Silver lining, I will say, out of nowhere, the part that almost made it where I was like, I don't even know if I can enjoy this romance anymore was the part where I talked about how I realized that he could save her from that backbriking labor if he just let her pay the mortgage and like pay her back. Like whatever. You know what I'm talking about? like
01:07:30
Speaker
Well, they still wouldn't have had the herd if they hadn't taken care of the cattle. I mean, true. That's a good point. I guess I hadn't thought about that. They would have died. So they wouldn't have a herd anymore. You just saved the spoon book for me.
01:07:42
Speaker
And then the one on the Texas Plains, the plot Moppet part was, it came on a bit thick for me at
Critique of the 'Plot Moppet' Trope
01:07:46
Speaker
times. ah The plot Moppet was so egregious. It was the the way that she just rope everybody in by being like, you're mine.
01:07:52
Speaker
my god, and she's like, the lawyer his father-in-law at the end, and she just like touches his cheek, and suddenly he is not angry anymore. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's my grandpa.
01:08:04
Speaker
And therefore, he's okay with it. I was like, I feel so bad for all these other kids because what happens? Like either Plot Moppet loses her place in the pecking order because there are all these babies all over the place, right? all the other kids are never as important as Plot Moppet. And then, you know, anyway, yeah, Plot Moppet knocked a couple pegs off for me for that one. But yeah.
01:08:25
Speaker
I get it. Okay. So next time time to continue on the feelings train, we're jumping into the 2020s. We're going to read Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins and Marrying Off Morgan McBride by Amy Berry.
01:08:40
Speaker
and it's going to be a fun time had by all. And we're going to see what what's romance doing now or what are Westerns doing now? I think it'll be great.
01:08:51
Speaker
It'll be great. Full show notes are at smutreport.com slash podcast. And you can come hang out with us and Blue Sky. i think that's the only social media where we really are these days.
01:09:03
Speaker
Or on ye olde blog, smutreport.com. Until then. Keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!