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Hoedown Showdown: Westerns from the Present
60 Plays7 days ago
For the third week of the Hoedown Showdown, we're in the 2020s! What's changed in Western romance? What's stayed the same?
We read:
- Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins (Amazon | Bookshop)
- Marrying Off Morgan McBride by Amy Barry (Amazon | Bookshop)
Full shownotes at smutreport.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Cowboys Bracket
00:00:00
Speaker
Na na na na Smut Report! Hey everybody! Welcome back to the Smut Report. I'm Holly. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Erin. And we finally figured out a name for our Cowboys bracket. You probably already know this because it it's like in our show notes and everything retrospectively, but it's the Hoedown Showdown.
00:00:20
Speaker
Thanks, Ingrid! You're welcome!
Contemporary Westerns Discussion
00:00:23
Speaker
And we are out of the early 2020s, or early 2000s, rather, and into the twenty twenty s So, like, you know, we did our what did Westerns used to look like, and now we're looking at what do Westerns look like now. So for this week, we read Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins, which was published in 2021, and um And we also read Marrying Off Morgan McBride by Amy Berry, which was published in 2023. And I think both of these books are second books in series.
00:01:00
Speaker
They are second books in the series, but I don't feel like you need to have read the first ones to get what's going on in here. Well, I think with the Beverly Jenkins in particular, the narratives of all of the stories in this series are relatively disconnected.
00:01:14
Speaker
ah the Amy Berry, there's a lot of content directing you to what happened in the first book. because it does play off of basically june bugs the sisters shenanigans which she is doing again so we can link to holly's review of the first book in the show notes uh but you'd read the first one oh yes i have read the first one yeah it can stand on its own the amy berry but it's clearly much more part of a series than the beverly jenkins i'd like
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, because actually the Beverly Jenkins does refer back to another couple a lot. But that couple is, i think, not technically in the same series. Like that couple is the third book, ah right? it's a Yeah, it's it's like the third book in a different series. And then like the first book, Wild Rain is part of Women Who Dare.
00:02:07
Speaker
um And I think one of us has read the other.
Ingrid's Audiobook Experience
00:02:10
Speaker
Did you read it, Erin? The first woman I read? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not about none of these characters, right?
00:02:17
Speaker
Right. It's set in the South. It's not a Western. It's like a reconstruction story. Yeah. I would say this is a Western reconstruction story also, but i feel like we made a reconstruction tag in our ah blog page.
00:02:35
Speaker
ah tagging all the books all the time thing, like specifically because i read a Beverly Jenkins Western and was like, ah, this is a reconstruction story and we need a tag for that.
00:02:45
Speaker
So anyway, let's just jump in, shall we? Should we do one sentence in summaries and then we can kind of see where we want to go with this? All right, let's do this. All right, i just for context, i have never done an audiobook before.
00:03:00
Speaker
Never. This is my first audiobook of all time. I did Marrying Off Morgan McBride. on audiobook and it was honest to God like trying to put pudding in a colander. I think a lot of stuff stayed but I have no guarantees that everything stayed in my head so this will be interesting. So anyway.
00:03:18
Speaker
I'll go first and we'll see because I really do want to see if I got this right. Okay. Okay. Because I i also, but i tried so hard, guys. I fell asleep three times and then I had to rewind it and be like, I don't even know where I was. So anyhow, here we go.
00:03:29
Speaker
this This will be a
Plot Summaries and Character Dynamics
00:03:30
Speaker
challenge. So Wild Rain is with Spring and Garrett. Spring Rescue. i mean, I'm also sleep deprived. Okay, here we go. Sentence. Okay. Spring Town Outcast and Beloved Town Outcast.
00:03:44
Speaker
Spring Beloved Town Outcast. And Mountain Lady um rescues Garrett in a snowstorm while he's on his way to journalist in her town.
00:03:56
Speaker
Only to end up thinking he's a real hottie. And Spring and Garrett end up having to fight against a town bully. There's so much going on.
00:04:12
Speaker
There's a lot going on, but also kind of not a lot going on. yeah It's a it' slow, but tense, but slow, but tense. Was it tense? Anyway, okay, so here's mine then.
00:04:23
Speaker
ah Spring, living on her ranch in Wyoming, doesn't need a man because she has a whole community. Mm-hmm.
00:04:34
Speaker
And when she meets Garrett, who is visiting from the east, she doesn't really change her mind.
00:04:47
Speaker
Even though, I even know. Doesn't really change her mind, but wants to hang out with him a lot. And he decides to move to Wyoming. But yeah.
00:04:58
Speaker
There we go. I don't know. There was a lot of other stuff that happened, but I was just like, it just turned into a nothing burger. My analogy for your sentence is like, if you have a really nicely decorated layer cake and then you trip and drop it on the floor.
00:05:13
Speaker
It did kind of fall apart. It started out really well that I just kind of like, all right, Holly. Holly, rescue us. Okay. So, Spring likes her independent life.
00:05:27
Speaker
That's a good start. Solid. Garrett doesn't love his life, but does what he does out of obligation to his family. But when Garrett comes to Wyoming...
00:05:40
Speaker
He finds his place and his place is with Spring and Spring decides that ah Spring learns that she with Garrett that she can have a partner and still have an independent life.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, that was good. That was good. Thank you, Holly. You're welcome. But also also there's like some stuff about like property racism. Scam artists. Racism.
Themes of Racism and Historical Context
00:06:11
Speaker
And... Bullying. Bullying. And... Not bullying. Like, springs past...
00:06:19
Speaker
a guy who used to sexually assault her on the regular being back in her life right yeah like pretty bad i don't know about back in her life well i guess he did leave i guess he did leave for a little while i mean so he is okay back in town and he's a nasty piece of work for sure Yeah. and family estrangement. Yeah. and some stuff with the mill. and and her brother being patriarchal but not... Is Jared going to a newspaper man or is he going to be a carpenter? And is he going to do like black uplift for his family?
00:06:58
Speaker
and There's there's like a lot there's there's like a lot of little stuff that happens, yeah but none of which is developed into like a full-blown, this is the plot point. I think it's the pace is slow, and it's not the tension is moderate, would you say?
00:07:15
Speaker
But there is a lot plot-wise that does happen, right? It's just that the pace is slow. Which, anyway, we can get into that later. yeah Yeah. And I would say, just like the narrative art construction is not about telling this one story.
Women in Westerns: Independence and Relationships
00:07:30
Speaker
It's telling... Anyway, yeah we'll come back to this. I think, to summarize, I watched a video where Beverly Jenkins says that she likes to write stories where a woman has everything and is good with her life, and the man that comes in is like the whipped cream and the cherry on top.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good description. Yeah, I could see that. that's That makes a lot of sense. All right, so marrying off Morgan McBride, let's see how much pudding I still have. Are we ready? All right. Okay, so here we go.
00:07:57
Speaker
Share your pudding, England. Here's the pudding. Pip travels to Montana to be a mail-order bride after experiencing lots of rejection and, you know, body shaming, maybe, something.
00:08:13
Speaker
In her hometown. Only to discover that the person she thinks she's been writing to is actually kid sister. And the rest of the book is basically Pip trying desperately to avoid having to go home with her tail between her legs while she's developing the hots for a guy who has no desire to be married or have the burden of a family.
00:08:35
Speaker
Like he would like to be free of his hoisted responsibilities or whatever. And that same guy trying to pretend like he's not really interested in Pip, who has a big boobs.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yes. She does. i assume she's, like, one of those, like, super statuesque women. She's got to be, like, six foot one. yes Yes. And like built like Christina Hendricks or something. Yeah. That's kind of what I picture.
00:09:00
Speaker
ah You know what? It's like if you combine Christina Hendricks and Ilona Matthews, the woman's rugby player from the Olympics, you know I'm talking about? That woman is like, she is absolutely stunning. She's the one who, if you ever saw an interview with her, that this interviewer was like, do you ever feel imposter syndrome?
00:09:18
Speaker
And she was like, no, what's that? Yeah. Is that like where you feel like you don't deserve your success? And the interviewer's like, oh, yeah. And she's like, yeah, I don't have that problem.
00:09:28
Speaker
Good for her. Icon. Love that. Anyway, she's hilarious. So the point is, is that's kind of what I was picturing the whole time was, what's her name? Is it Ilona? Let me look it up. Ilona. Ilona. Mayer.
00:09:39
Speaker
Ilona Mayer. Okay. i have to look it up later. She is also very statuesque. Anyway, that's kind of who i pictured. Because she just, she's got swagger. Ilona Mayer has like woman swagger.
00:09:50
Speaker
Well, except for Pip doesn't have swagger. Pip is a hot mess. She is a hot mess. But I think that the point in the book is that he sees the potential for her to have it. Because in the end, when they're like getting all schmoozy, she starts trying it on for size. And he's like, oh, I like that.
00:10:04
Speaker
So, yeah. Anyway. She she finds her swagger. She's in the process of finding her swagger. All right, Aaron, let's hear sentence. I don't know, Aaron. i but This is the pudding part.
00:10:15
Speaker
I could be wrong. Right, right, right. I had a lot of feelings about this book. Like, it was a lot faster for me to read. i was like, what is what is happening? Because it was much more tightly focused on, like, the one narrative arc.
00:10:27
Speaker
So Morgan has spent his adult life taking care of his family after the death of his mother and the... abscondment of his father and he's finally gonna go off and be a cowboy again until his little sister orders him a mail order bride she's a stone cold hottie but doesn't fit into his life parentheses except she does because he doesn't actually want to be a cowboy
00:11:01
Speaker
end parentheses and parentheses thank you're i think i'll leave it at that i didn't talk a lot about pip but that's thing you guys can talk about ingrid i covered that okay so here's my sentence june bug june bug is the main character sorry guys can't argue with that um june bug is tired of cooking cooking And also knows that her beloved big brother slash father figure um wants to leave their home.
00:11:30
Speaker
So she orders him a bride. And then coaches said bride through various shenanigans in order to get her big brother Morgan to actually get married to Pip. And despite all of her shenanigans, it's really only basically she has to get out of the way for Morgan and Pip to be able to figure out that they're right together.
00:11:55
Speaker
Sorry, that was like, that was not good.
Comparing Westerns Across Eras
00:11:58
Speaker
We're just all dropping cakes today and that's okay. Yeah, that that was a drop of cake. I can't nail them all, guys. know what, though? Your start was real strong. I think that though starting with from Junebug's perspective was a solid choice.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the book starts from Junebug's perspective. Junebug is is a third narrator in the story. Yeah, that's true. yeah yeah So it's definitely a Junebug story. And Junebug is such a troublemaker.
00:12:24
Speaker
I like her a lot. hilarious. Yeah. But it seems like the same as what you had said for the first book. She's the fun thing about the book, and then the rest of the book is just like... Okay. Fine.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah. So maybe we could start by talking about things we noticed that are different in these 2020 books than in the 1990s and early 2000s books we read. Do we remember enough?
00:12:47
Speaker
So that's... I mean, there's definitely foreplay here. Yes. There was no foreplay. No, that's true. There was no foreplay earlier. But in both of these books, the heroine being helpless has fallen by the wayside.
00:12:59
Speaker
Even with Pip, yes, shes she don't know she's beautiful. trope situation going on here however she is trying every step of the way she wants to be the captain of her own ship regardless of the fact that she knows she's having to you know beg someone to marry her basically she is trying to direct her own future which i think is different perhaps and the coming to her rescue situation in both of them is ah i'm not seeing the heroine in peril i mean not that spring doesn't have a lot going on there's the suggestion of peril but
00:13:31
Speaker
Well, even when she is in peril, I mean, it's a bad situation, but she's not like, oh, I need somebody to rescue me. Garrett isn't the one who rescues her. It's her grandfather who's kind of right place, right time. So it's much more like community oriented.
00:13:43
Speaker
help right than damsel in distress honestly garrett's more the damsel in distress oh yeah oh for sure that i mean you know he's the east coast society man right who's just like you know doesn't carry a gun has ill-fitting boots and his boots don't fit and he falls off his horse i love that he's not judged for it it's just facts are facts he doesn't really know what he's doing That he knows how to operate in a different kind of space. Like he he's from D.C. He's from the city.
00:14:15
Speaker
So he doesn't he doesn't know about Wyoming spring blizzards. Yeah, I felt like Wild Rain felt like 100%. This is a woman who is fiercely independent and owning her own destiny and doesn't need a man because she's already set and respected in her community. Like she goes to this party hosted by the wife of the banker in town.
Character Analysis in 'Wild Rain'
00:14:40
Speaker
Right. So these are like the elite people in town. And there are some people at the party who don't acknowledge her, but the banker's wife does. Other high powered people in town absolutely have a relationship with her.
00:14:54
Speaker
And it's almost more like the reason that she doesn't, that she's not being acknowledged. It's not because she's black. It's not because she isn't a virgin. It's because she's doing all this stuff without a man.
00:15:07
Speaker
And so she's like, whatever. I would like to talk about the difference between the lack of social ostracism or the concern about social ostracism in Wild Rain compared to like Silver Lining, especially because that that was very different. Yeah, like the Beverly Jenkins very much felt like a modern feminist don't want to say it's not just a feminist book but just like a much more like embracing this woman's independence kind of narrative but and especially when you have the compare and contrast of like she's this very competent outdoors woman and he is like the city boy who yeah like holly said doesn't carry a gun belt all this stuff So the contrast there is more pronounced as opposed to, I feel like other places where it's, well, even in marrying off Morgan McBride, she's more the town woman.
00:15:59
Speaker
She goes there and she's like, well, these people are wearing, like, what is this girl wearing? She's dressed inappropriately. And her dress, she feels like it's very plain, but they're like, wow, are you going to work in that fancy dress? You know, like this dress that she made for herself.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah. ah to meet her prospective husband. So yeah, I felt like marrying off Morgan McBride had a lot more elements that maybe is early tens sort of romance where she is so deeply mired in her insecurities. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:35
Speaker
Because of her upbringing. It was so much of this like, well, I'm obviously not pretty. Yeah. Because this is the feedback that I've been getting for my entire life. Okay. I feel like if an entire town of men rejects you as a prospective spouse, that would be ah challenging.
00:16:51
Speaker
Well, and let's be honest, how it happens? Yeah. Brutal. Yeah. But she just really, there is no point. A lot of the misunderstandings that occur, I guess I should say, a lot of the misunderstandings that occur are because she is interpreting actions as she's not good enough and not because, you know, whatever, Morgan has something else he wants to do in his life.
00:17:17
Speaker
Like, it's a rejection of her specifically. It's not that he had plans to go to a cattle drive right except he doesn't he doesn't actually oh my gosh any of this book also like okay this is this is i can't wait for not modern waiting for this moment they were not on the page together at all they had three fights they do everything else separately and then they get to the end and he's like i want to marry you actually My head exploded.
00:17:44
Speaker
I was like, what is this? Well, no, he he want he wants to bone her and he knows that. Oh my gosh. That that's the only way. That was school vibes. I mean, so when you were talking about spring and wild rain and her independence, it really brought into a perspective how much Pip's whole personality is all she wants is to be a spouse.
00:18:08
Speaker
ah Right? Right? She can't imagine a dream where she sends her brother back so she can, like, stay in Montana for her however she wants. to Like, she doesn't have a dream where she opens a boarding house.
00:18:23
Speaker
Right? where she you know become or becomes a the cook in the boarding house that's there, where she takes on a job or just sets up her own home away from her awful family.
00:18:36
Speaker
Her whole goal in this, there's this whole middle section in the book where she like goes up to Morgan, the McBride family homestead, right? Up in the mountains, like four hours away from town. Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
And she's like, I'm going to go up there and I'm going to show him that I am the best wife possible and then he won't reject me. And like her whole goal is I'm going to be a wife. I'm going to be a wife, not I'm going to become independent. I'm going to be my own person. find my own joy. Find my own
Pip's Journey and Self-Discovery
00:19:10
Speaker
joy. I'm just going to, I'm going to show him that I am a good cook and I'm going to clean the cookhouse and I'm going to wash all the dishes because I hate doing dishes, but I have to show him that I'd be a good wife. So I got to get all this. Well, and what I found interesting is this, there's a difference between, right? Wanting to be a wife because that's like, I want to belong to someone or in this context. I mean, ah I mean, obviously there's a lot of different ways to be a wife, right? Let's be real.
00:19:33
Speaker
However, at one point I was like, well, if he goes off and rides with the Cadillac, who's to say she can't just stay there? Why can't she just stay there? Do you know what i mean? yeah But that doesn't make sense because i think what it really was, she wants somebody to pick her.
00:19:44
Speaker
She does want to belong to somebody. She wants someone to be like, I choose you and I commit to you in front of everybody. And that's why she can't just stay there. She can't just be like, all right, well, can I just stay and I'll work for you guys and I'll cook and you guys can let me sleep in the cabin or whatever. You know what i mean?
00:19:58
Speaker
Because, well, and I'm sure part of it is that she wants the legitimacy, right? Like her family would be horrified if she was shacking up with a bunch of you know, mountain men. But the point is, is that for her, one of the drivers is she wants to belong to some, she wants somebody to choose her finally.
00:20:13
Speaker
And that is very, I think that, because remember, we've talked about how a lot of the shifts in romance that are being written now is that it can't just be that she gets the guy in the end. It has to be that she gets the guy and that he supports her vision of what she wants from her own future.
00:20:30
Speaker
and i think that's very much absent yeah but no that that doesn't happen in this book yep at all because there is no other vision of her future think it was interesting that even so she's finally away from home her grandmother turns out just a wild wild card yeah she's like i'm gonna shack up with these guys you know copy granny come it in high And her grandmother even was like, okay, so she goes she goes to the McBride homestead.
00:20:57
Speaker
And then Morgan leaves just like he planned and does not even tell her that he had planned to leave. This guy, this guy is an entire tool bag. Like he didn't even tell his.
00:21:12
Speaker
No, Aaron, he's an emotionally constipated alpha hole who feels like he doesn't have to. He doesn't want to deal with like the repercussions. He doesn't much growth He is so awful. yeah He's like, he doesn't even say goodbye to his sister, who is basically his daughter, because he doesn't want to deal with her emotional outbursts of missing him.
00:21:31
Speaker
It was like, how can you not say goodbye? Or leave a note. Anyway, for so sorry. There are so many. Yeah, it's terrible. It's just like, okay, moving on. So she's like, okay, now I have to go home.
00:21:41
Speaker
When she spent all of this time and energy trying to get away from home. And money. All of her money. so Pip and her grandma do a little, and what can we call it a boondoggle?
00:21:52
Speaker
Definitely she is bamboozled into going yeah farther because Junebug is like, well, I'm going to salvage this situation by going after my brother in the town where the cattle drive is meeting up, right?
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah. And now they really have no money. So they're stuck there. There's more comic relief with the guys who come along with them. So it's the granny, Junebug, Pip. The prospectors.
00:22:18
Speaker
And the two prospects. The old trappers. And the Travers are like, well, they're going to win the money for us to get more tickets and like pay for ribbon board, except for they turn out to be really bad gamblers. I was like, of course they are.
00:22:34
Speaker
I was like, okay. It is pretty So here's Pip making deals and working to try and get the them back on track, and her vision is still going back to Nebraska. And then finally...
00:22:50
Speaker
Right. It's not like... I can open my own restaurant. Right! It's not yeah Not buying the... right Because, like, the chick who owns the restaurant doesn't want to stay there. Yeah. Willabelle. Willabelle is the villainess from book one, by the way.
00:23:04
Speaker
In case that doesn't... case that wasn't clear. That wasn't clear. But she... i Pip could be like, all right, I'll work for you until you earn enough money to leave. And then as payment, you're going to sign the restaurant over to me and I will be making money hand over fist and like living in this like town that I don't want to be living in. But then I can make my own destiny.
00:23:30
Speaker
Yeah. When they finally did get together, I have to admit that I was kind of like oh, I see a rocky future for you guys because there's multiple things that just aren't resolved. So for one, it's that, you know, Pip's basically just like bumping around from place to place, trying to have control over her life, but without any real vision about what she wants. She just kind of knows what she doesn't want. Yeah. And then we have Morgan who, yeah, like he's supposed to be emotionally constipated, but he's supposed to be a good guy. Except that, you know, i thought it was borderline cruel that he's like, I think tomorrow is going to be even better. And then he's surprised. So they they make out by the creek, right?
00:24:04
Speaker
This is the night before he leaves. She's thinking like, okay, he says, well, I think tomorrow is going to be even better. And what he means is because I'm going to peace the fuck out and leave you guys in the dirt, like in the dust. Yeah. And what she thinks he means is because we're going to we're going to sit down and try to figure this out now that we've had this make out session and yeah clearly have a ton of chemistry. Right.
00:24:22
Speaker
And he knows that she's misunderstanding. And he is like, yeah, I'm not going to clear that up and just pieces out the next day. And so, of course, she thinks that he was like, yeah, I like you because he acts like it. Yeah. And then they get there, right? And she's like, I'm getting the hell out of here. And i mean, it's just, one, he never really works through any of that stuff in a way that actually explains to her. I mean, he kind of does, but so it's so, he only cares.
00:24:46
Speaker
the The whole setup of her going to Miles City from a plot-based standpoint is for, he only sees that he should lock that down because somebody else wants to. That's the only reason. Yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
I was like, that's the only reason they go there. I was ready to feel really bad for him. And then I felt like Barry turned that around really well. But even with, okay. So back to Morgan, he does not listen to Pip.
00:25:12
Speaker
at all. every are I said they have like three arguments and then they're like, let's get married. It's not even arguments. He talks at her, doesn't listen to her when she interrupts. There's a moment where he's like, we already talked about this.
00:25:27
Speaker
Why are you at our homestead? And she's like, we didn't talk. You talked. He bought her a ticket back to Nebraska, but didn't even realize because he never asked that she had other people traveling with her. so That's how she gets her brother to leave. She's like, oh, here's this ticket for you that Morgan bought for me. Right.
00:25:46
Speaker
And he does it multiple other times. And then like even in was Miles City, Ingrid. See, you don't have such a colander brain. I forgot it was called Miles City. The only reason I know that is because I used to recruit physicians for Miles City.
00:25:59
Speaker
so And nobody wanted to live there now either. So go ahead. So she's so she's even there. She's like, why do you feel like this is all about you, dude? And he's like, because it is just like, you know, and then he stops off. And it's not until they get on the train at the very end that he's like, OK, now I would like to have a conversation and get to know you, except for.
00:26:22
Speaker
It's really just like foreplay. So they can make out. ah Well, because because see I think that the author does try to rectify this in that in the on the train when he's like trying to convince her to marry him or whatever. by He has a whole list of questions that he's decided he wants to ask her that, let me rephrase that,
00:26:38
Speaker
He's decided he'd like to know these specific things about her. but So he writes them all down, right? Still self-centered. and And then she answers them and he's able to be like, because I want to marry a girl whose favorite color gray and buh blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:51
Speaker
But it's gray because it's the color of his eyes. Like she's still not, ru I don't think she, she just to she doesn't seem to know who she is at all. And then he doesn't listen, but also she drops this bomb on the reader at the end, right? Where she's like, do you want to have kids?
00:27:05
Speaker
And he's like, well, just assumed you had to have kids, right? And then it kind of comes out like it's it's kind of been alluded to, but without actually being fleshed out that poor Morgan comes home for what he thinks is a visit only to discover that his a bunch of his sisters have died. All of his sisters except Junebug have died. Yeah, he's lost like half his family at this point and his mom is dying and and he knows that that no one else can take care of the family anymore. It's on him.
00:27:32
Speaker
So he has to like give up his career and this life that he's built for himself, drop everything and basically become a parent. And so he's, you know, parenting all these, you know, the boys who are, you know, closer to him in age, but he's kind of the leader. And then Junebug, who was still tiny.
00:27:46
Speaker
And, you know, some of the stuff that's talked about, about how he was abused. I mean, all this stuff, he's basically forced into his own nightmare. Right. And so you you get, you do get this background information. And then at the end, he's like, basically, he's not even aware that he has a choice about having children.
00:27:59
Speaker
He wants her. he he doesn't know if he wants kids. And she's like, I do want them eventually. And he's like, okay. But he doesn't really say like, yeah, okay, I want them eventually too. this i had this pit in my stomach where i was like, oh my gosh, like if this were real life and these were two real people, this conversation was not had in a way that makes me feel confident that they've agreed upon future together.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah. Because he clearly doesn't want children, right? And she's like, oh, okay, well, whatever you want for now, but eventually I'd like a family. Like, she neither of them know what they want.
00:28:34
Speaker
About one of the biggest things, biggest, most important things in getting married, they don't really have a
Realism in Romance Narratives
00:28:40
Speaker
conversation. And so it was just like, they're supposed by this time, they're supposed to be showing that they can actually have a conversation and be a functional married couple.
00:28:46
Speaker
And I was like, this feels too real. This feels like too much real life. i feel like I'm sitting across from a colleague at a work happy hour and they're telling me about their dumpster fire of a relationship. And I'm just supposed to sit there and be like, oh, congratulations.
00:28:58
Speaker
Because I don't know them well enough to be like, y'all need to go to therapy now. Do not walk down that aisle until you clear this up. you know what I mean? That's what it felt like. Just saying. too funny no they were just like had amazing sexual chemistry slash you know slash she's like this man is really hot and he shows he wants me he really wants me he wants me and he's taller thing right for a second Oh my god, that was... So to circle back to the question that Holly initially asked, I think we can all agree that Amy Berry, while it might be written in a much more modern presentation, Marrying Off Morgan McBride has a lot of staples of old school romances, maybe without the rapey stuff.
00:29:44
Speaker
And Beverly Jenkins is like a whole different ballgame. Yeah. We can say it's not rapey, but I didn't like she does the stuff where it's like Pip initiates some like the kisses kind but not really. It still feels very.
00:29:57
Speaker
i am man. And I don't know. I didn't really get that vibe because when they're in the river, right? Like she leaps at him and they end up in the creek and he asks her, he says, do you want to try again? And I thought that was pretty, I i was like, okay, that's not usual. Like, that's definitely more modern than.
00:30:13
Speaker
But like on the train. So you're talking generally about a vibe of like, i harking back to those old schools where he is the experienced one. And so he's going to show her how to yes be intimate.
00:30:25
Speaker
I get that. That, yes, I could see that. Yes. Sort of patriarchal that narrative there. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I didn't think it was as, uh, obvious or heavy handed as we sometimes see but I think that's definitely present. Oh yeah, no, of course.
00:30:39
Speaker
I mean, the whole narrative, we've talked about like the whole narrative is about her making herself a wife and mother. So of course, you know, like, so this just goes to follow. I feel like. I mean, and even without the agreement of do they want kids or not? She's still a lot of her thoughts are like, man, Junebug really needs a mom. Junebug, there's a whole thing where she's up at the homestead and Junebug is supposed to be making dinner, right? Junebug is supposed to be doing her chores and And Pip goes in and is like, what are you doing? That's not how you prepare fish. And then is teaching Junebug how to do these like proper.
00:31:11
Speaker
Which I thought was really interesting because it is totally normal for men who fish to know how to prepare fish. Yeah, they do. So why doesn't Junebug have a proper education about how to prepare fish?
00:31:27
Speaker
Don't these guys want to eat these fish? Like this is their dinner. why So Junebug in this scene is like massacring the fish. Half of the meat is gone by the end of it kind of a thing. Like why would they do that? Yeah.
00:31:42
Speaker
Morgan lived on the trail. You're trying to tell me he can't cook. He knows how to cook. Yeah. And then and then this is another thing I didn't like. I didn't like that it was like, well, you know, Junebug needs to be doing her chores and stuff like that. But then they're all complaining about how she does her chores. And I'm like, you're the freaking grownups.
00:31:58
Speaker
Explain. Right. she She's the youngest. She has four older brothers living at home who are all adult-ish. Young adults. We'll say they're like... I mean, Morgan's older. You know, like ah ranging like 16 to 26. Yeah.
00:32:14
Speaker
We'll give their age range for her four older brothers. I'll give Kit a pass because he's the blacksmith. So he like has work that he does for their community. But like, what are all these other guys doing that she is doing all of it of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, all the stuff?
00:32:35
Speaker
All the stuff. I mean, I did think these books in terms of like women's work were pretty interesting. There was this line in Wild Rain. Sorry, I'm getting us totally off track. But there's this line in Wild Rain where it's um ah early on. And, you know, Garrett's like, well, I feel bad that I can't help you, Spring, do the chores. And she's like, what? I'm like, I'm used to doing them. And he's just like, wow, women back east, sit back and let the men do the work. And I guess it's not that like that here.
00:33:04
Speaker
which I thought was just like really interesting. But there is this emphasis on like women have to do all this work in the West, which we've seen in previous books that we read. Even in the older books, I will say this.
00:33:15
Speaker
In the older books, it seemed more like there was a ah respected balance. Like he's out doing hard physical labor all day. So yeah, she's handling the house, but they were both exhausted and they needed, like, especially I'm thinking about the Silver Spoon book.
00:33:31
Speaker
If one of them goes down, yeah they both go down. It's very much like they're holding each other up on these like hard labor stuff. This, whether it was intended to or not, it what it seems like is that Junebug was carrying a lot more labor than she should have been carrying.
00:33:46
Speaker
And the two at least the younger guys, because we have a blacksmith, like you said, and we have you know the trading post. Okay. But we don't ever hear what the younger two are doing. And I also will say that it gave me another bad taste in my mouth when every single time they talk about all those sisters that died, it's just the girls, the sisters.
00:34:02
Speaker
They don't, there's nothing. It's not like, oh, you know, like. They don't have an identity. There's no identity. Just that they lost the girls. Yeah. We don't even know how many there were. Yeah. just So it just, yeah. some theres And I think so if it weren't all for all those little pieces, it wouldn't necessarily have felt that way.
00:34:18
Speaker
But it got to the point where all these little things kind of made my indignance like rise a little bit until by the time they're like, oh, I don't think it's ever been this clean in here. I'm like, well, what the hell have you been doing then? You know?
00:34:29
Speaker
Anyway. Well, I did like Morgan was like, I'll clean it. You know, like you go to bed, I'll clean it. You're a guest. But he's like, you're a guest. Junebug should be doing it. Not there was a huge group of people here tonight. yeah Maybe the boys should have helped. Not right we can share this labor.
00:34:42
Speaker
Like these other brothers who did not cook anything and are now like going swimming. So anyway, yeah that is, I think, a big difference. I think that there's a shift in like there's still the expectation of these responsibilities, but there's not that kind of I don't know.
00:34:58
Speaker
I definitely think. Something is shifting here in these books, but it's hard to put your finger on what exactly it is because
Evolution of Western Narratives
00:35:05
Speaker
there's still so many. It just doesn't. Before it was clear cut roles.
00:35:08
Speaker
This is what we do. This is how it works together. This is the labor. And then, you know, and obviously this is a fictional book. This is not like they're not like illustrating labor roles or whatever, but it seems like some kind of slips. And then in here it's kind of like we have all the expectations of the women, but there's also like. So it's kind of weirdly done. Yeah. That's what I'll say. So have you guys ever seen Seven Brides for Seven Brothers? haven't.
00:35:29
Speaker
No. I think I so i think i saw a play. Okay. Did we see the play? was it did they ever do the play of that one? I can't remember if I saw the movie or the play, and I can't even remember actually seeing it. I mean, it would have been like in college. And I feel like maybe after you mentioned it, Holly, because I don't think I heard of it before. Yeah, I actually had. And I remember mom said it. And I don't really I mean, I know the basic storyline, but I don't even remember. Yeah.
00:35:54
Speaker
I don't remember watching. I remember. the idea of having seen it, but I don't remember having seen it, if that makes sense. Yeah. I remember being in the kitchen and asking, Mom, if you said flat out, I don't like that one because it's super sexist and they basically kidnap a bunch of women. Yeah. Okay. So it is it is super sexist.
00:36:14
Speaker
They do kidnap a bunch of women, but it's just like it's just like such a joyful movie. And I watched it a lot as a teenager, so maybe this is why I love Westerns. um But I feel like Amy Berry is, Amy Berry probably has also seen this movie a hundred times, just like I have, because there's a lot of this like division of labor, women's work, like men don't know how to cook or clean a kitchen. But with this like tongue in cheek, like everything is funny.
00:36:43
Speaker
ha. Even if you're like, yeah, let's not think about this. It's willing suspension. but Maybe it's willing suspension of being grossed out by sexism. Maybe. Yeah. yeah ah but I mean, look, there are some old fashioned bodice rippers that I know that it's not.
00:37:01
Speaker
We don't want this in real life, but sometimes it just they're satisfying. Not the pirate one, but all the other ones. Anyway, yeah so this gave you those vibes. Then Holly brought you back to Seven Brides. Oh, yeah.
00:37:11
Speaker
Was it in ah in a good way? Well, I liked the first one better because the first one, heroine was not desperate be a wife. that the first one was had more of a... so It was like probably one of the earlier cinnamon roll heroes. Is that true? Like, he's big and burly, but he's very sensitive and tender. Is that accurate to you?
00:37:31
Speaker
Yes, he is very sensitive and tender. And... um And like she, the heroine, don't remember how she gets up. ah She ends up on their homestead, but then like she brains her ankle like in the first half an hour of being there.
00:37:48
Speaker
So then, so it's like, can't leave so then she's stranded there. She like, and so she very quickly realizes that he didn't want her, but she's also pretending to be somebody who she's not.
00:38:01
Speaker
And so, but so she's not like, Pip is very try hard, right? Pip is like trying to show her place and Maddie, the heroine and the other one is just like trying to get through it, trying to find a way for her to like be independent and like get enough money to live her life.
00:38:18
Speaker
Right. So ah the dynamic is a little different. um But I i mean, i just think and basically like Junebug is delightful. And so I like... She is. It was pretty fun. She's hilarious. because Well, and I think it that comic relief is really nice. And it was a mannegan it was a definitely a juxtaposition to Wild Rain.
00:38:40
Speaker
Wild Rain was much yes more... I don't want to say... What did Sober? Like it's just... It's more... yeah you're right yes but i liked it so should we talk about that one now do we want to do any other things we want to say about uh well i was going to tie into the so the tying wild rain into the woman's work component like we've got garrett he's a visitor he's here to do a job like as a journalist um His day job is being a carpenter, but his dad runs a night newspaper, so he works also for that kind of a thing.
00:39:16
Speaker
And he is sent by his father to do a feature piece about Spring's brother, who was a black doctor in the West, in Wyoming. And, ah I mean, there's more...
00:39:30
Speaker
shared housework maybe in Wild Rain like Garrett cooks there's a couple moments where Garrett's like I didn't sign up to cook breakfast for everybody visiting ah but Spring is still like it's her ranch in this case so she is doing all of the labor to maintain the ranch like she is the one working yeah and it it's different because he's on vacation but it's like not on vacation but like it's different because of their different roles But she is still doing all the work.
00:40:03
Speaker
um So we still have consistency in terms of the women doing all the work. Like think like Louise and Silver Lining doing all the cooking and going out to the barn.
00:40:15
Speaker
Poor thing. um never You know, all winter. So, I mean, totally different vibe, but similar actions. I think he does. I think I actually really like springing Garrett. Cause I think Garrett, he does try to, he's like, can I, can I cook for you? Like, doesn't he try to cook for her? He cooks for her. And then she's like, no, I was like, you know, she's very independent and he knows better than to like usurp her role, but he does think, no, he doesn't ask. He just like, she just comes out the morning and like breakfast is on the table. yeah. That's it. Thank you. Yeah. No. Cause I just, I, what I felt like what I was seeing was that he was looking for ways to,
00:40:50
Speaker
kind of like support her it wasn't like against her will but just in ways that she wouldn't find threatening or like he but he was really thinking about how she was feeling about things I i really liked their relationship in this book and I loved that he was always thinking about ways for him to fit into her world he even said I'll buy my own ranch. Like, if you don't want me living here, like, I just want to be part of your life, you know?
00:41:14
Speaker
So I thought they were really sweet. And I also liked, I liked their relationship. And I loved that Beverly Jenkins talks about, um, there were absolutely black people having careers, successful jobs, having rich multifaceted lives.
Diversity and Historical Trauma in Westerns
00:41:28
Speaker
And I just thought it was really fantastic. And there was this one line,
00:41:31
Speaker
Because she doesn't like sit there and beat you over the head with it. She just like drops little... you know There's this one part where they're talking about... Gosh, what was it? Is it Garrett? or it let me you know I highlighted it. I'll look it up. But basically, he says ah the thing the bamboozlement we have to do to live in this world...
00:41:47
Speaker
Well, was it with the, um because Spring's business partner is Native American, right? And he's an architect. And I think Garrett is like, oh, do they do they let Indians into architecture school?
00:42:01
Speaker
And he's like, nah, I told them I was Spanish. and That's it. You nailed it. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for doing that. um Anyhow. Yeah. And I just cracked up because I was like, that's so hilarious. And It was just such a, I don't know. I just loved, I loved the book. I loved that Yes, it had characters who were bigots and it had, but it had a ton of characters who were just like, that's just, that's my neighbor.
00:42:23
Speaker
She was part of my community, you know? And yeah so it just gave a much richer setting, I thought. and And, but I did think it was pretty wild. The ah way she just, she is like the queen of nonchalantly dropping trauma bombs.
00:42:38
Speaker
Did you guys feel that way too? yeah Well, yeah. I mean, I was like, oh, God. Yeah. No, both of them. Like, like Garrett was born into slavery and his uncle came and like got him out when he was 13 14.
00:42:55
Speaker
thirteen or fourteen And then he fought in the Navy for the Union. It's just like, yeah, that's just like, that's just my life. mean, i get I feel like spring is even worse. Hershey has a very violent, but I, he's so nonchalant about his little sister. And then you, the author doesn't say my little sister is my, until later on, my little sister is my half sister because she was born while my mom was a slave on a different plantation.
00:43:19
Speaker
Like when we were separated and then he's like, oh yeah, it was the owner's brother basically. And you're just like, oh, God, but it's so nonchalant because that's what it would what it would have been. i mean, like back then that was just part of. yeah So anyway, but I was like, I kept being like, oh, o ah, the whole time. So nonchalant. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so in terms of this book, I was thinking about it in terms of like, like is this book good art, right? Because i don't, I didn't find it ah satisfying read if I'm reading it for like an engaging plot.
00:43:53
Speaker
Because we talked about the plot. Like the plot is kind of not the troll, right? It's not the point at all. it's this and right like This book is more ah like a snapshot of a community and of these two people in the community and like showing a piece of American history that's different from what most people are shown um so like thinking about it in terms of purpose like i like i find this with most of beverly jenkins books i like i read them i'm like oh that was that was like a thing and like there's like all these like great little moments but i'm like but there wasn't a plot and it gets me and it makes me really frustrated and i feel like i have to just like recalibrate what i'm expecting because her books are trying to do something yeah yeah
00:44:42
Speaker
i I wonder how much this changes over the course of her writing life. Because I think my first Beverly Jenkins was Rebel, ah which is newer. And then I went back and read a couple of older ones like we did.
00:44:56
Speaker
ah was it Captured or whatever? The Sea Pirate for old school books. Oh, yeah. And it's also that one I think we discussed is like also very like slow or didn't have.
00:45:12
Speaker
It wasn't like there was a lot. They were like sailing around like separated on different islands there's like stuff going on but like it just doesn't read that way there's not a lot of tension due to plot points but don't know like indigo and man what was the what's the is it black hawk the one with the night hawk the one with marshall um I mean, similar, her writing style, I wouldn't say has changed.
Storytelling Techniques and Emotional Impact
00:45:45
Speaker
They're not fast paced stories, but they're, you know, like ah Nighthawk was like a road trip book kind of a thing. So they were like moving around and solving different problems as they arose.
00:45:58
Speaker
ah This one was not doing that. ah So I, yeah, I'm, it felt like this one was kind of speaking to a, not just Tali, a snapshot of like a historical story, but almost specifically like a woman choosing her own destiny without apology. Mm-hmm.
00:46:22
Speaker
And, and I, I don't know. So there were a couple things about it. Like a lot of the plot things were just sort of resolved. And I guess to answer your question, it wasn't maybe really a question, Holly.
00:46:34
Speaker
In terms of narrative arc, I think that there are some things about writing stories that I can see why readers might not appreciate them all the time, but maybe we shouldn't let go of them because that is, it's what drives tension and excitement in the narrative. And,
00:46:52
Speaker
i'm thinking of stuff like the dark moment you know like oh here we go again but like the bad guy the racist rapist dude in this wild rain book is like he pops in and out there's some tension around him and it gets resolved very quickly and yeah you know on the one hand you could say like why do we need the villain speech like the villain like why don't they just shoot the villain in the face Kind of a thing, like, right away.
00:47:20
Speaker
That's not, just speaking generally, because that's not what can happen in this book. Although I was wondering, why isn't she wearing her gun belt? She always wears her gun belt, but whatever. um So there is the question that we say about stories. It's like, why do we have to have the monologuing? But at the same time... She wants to wear her belt. The...
00:47:36
Speaker
She was. He told, he told her to throw it. He disarms her. Yeah. Anyway. Cause I was like, wait a minute. She's like trying to run down. Anyway, she, you know, this gets resolved quickly and that it's like, okay, well this is what people may be asking for when they say, why are we, why don't you just shoot the villain in the face with the, you know, like instead of waiting for the monologuing, but it doesn't make that emotional manipulation sort of cathartic arch of a story.
00:48:03
Speaker
And that yeah there's a reason that narratives are written the way they are to provide that emotional manipulation, because that's one of the reasons that we consume these kinds of art.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. Because I agree with Ingrid that like Spray and Garrett have a great relationship. And I believed in their happy ending, except for the baby's thing. That was another thing. I was like, yeah, we'll come back to that.
00:48:27
Speaker
Oh, sorry. um Like I believed in their relationship, but you're but there was no emotional manipulation here. Right. I, you know, like, cause, cause I wrote that piece like several years ago now about, uh, those moments that romance authors do where they're very purposely doing the thing to get my emotions involved.
00:48:49
Speaker
And for me, it works, it works all the damn time. And I'm just like, and I just like cry when I read these books and it's really ridiculous. And I know it's really ridiculous. And I know that the authors are doing it and I can see that they're doing it. well Um,
00:49:03
Speaker
And yeah, it doesn't. And it's not even right. It's not even just romance. I finally finished my Avengers movie marathon with my kid and I'm sitting on the couch crying after having watched this movie. How many times?
00:49:17
Speaker
It's like endgame. And kiddos like, why are you crying? And my husband's like, why aren't you? Like, that's the point.
00:49:28
Speaker
You're supposed to be crying at this. Oh, like when Tony Stark sacrifices himself. Sorry, I never seen it. But it's a whole arc, right? You've been through the emotional ringer trying to get to this point of the story. And it all comes out of your eye holes kind of a thing. And so it's not just romance.
00:49:46
Speaker
It is storytelling. Right. Right. Well, I'd like to back that up too, with because I had noted two specific examples of what the author did and then what you either usually see or what she could have done. I don't like to say could have done because i'm not goingnna it's her book. But the point is this.
00:50:01
Speaker
When Garrett gets shot, for example, and right, there's this tense moment where he knows he's been shot, right? like And then he goes to black and then he's rescued ever or whatever. But it got basically the pieces are fit together afterwards and they're just told to you oh he was found by these people oh it's over here oh they must have been standing over there do you know what I mean so oftentimes if you're trying to create tension in that scene instead of just jumping straight to oh he was rescued now he's safe right you would have shift perspectives right
00:50:32
Speaker
Where is she right now? She has no idea that he's laying in the wood shot. How long is he going to be there? do you know what I mean? Like you create some distance by shifting to someone else's perspective. This didn't happen here. Or if it did, it didn't matter because the whole point was literally the next paragraph he's rescued.
00:50:45
Speaker
So there wasn't a lot of distance or time for you to be stuck in a suspense there was none that's one specific example to back up i think what Erin's saying right Erin and then the second one is in the cabin for example again it's her perspective the whole time i did not notice usually i would see more you're talking about the cabin at the end would At the end when the villain, there's the showdown with the villain. this is supposed to be like peak tension, right? Like everything is coming to a head here.
00:51:11
Speaker
So I would expect to see more dialogue to slow down the action. There was very little dialogue. And what it was was kind of like him throwing out a comment, her throwing out a comment, and then just descriptions of what's happening, stuff like that. More still, her sentence structure, she is committed to that. You know how we said meander? She is committed to the meander. Her sentences are the same length.
00:51:29
Speaker
The same pace, the same word choice the entire time she's writing regardless. So normally and in ah in a time like that, I would expect to see the sentences a little bit shorter and sharper. They're not.
00:51:39
Speaker
They still meander. So it's really hard to feel tension when the pace is slow and steady. you know what I mean? I think that is exactly one of the issues that I that I had with this book. I think the or feel like her writing is or is slow in general.
00:51:56
Speaker
Right. Is is exactly that. There's not the tension tension tension and then like calming down. And now we can have the periods where I noticed so many times in this book where she's like describing all the things that are around them or whatever. And I'm like, I don't care about flowers.
00:52:17
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. And that can be just me as a reader and how I'm paying attention right now. but But I definitely remarked it, you know, as I was listening to this book, which I don't always do if I'm fully ah absorbed by the main plot.
00:52:34
Speaker
Great. I don't get distracted by the the surrounding yeah information. Well, and I think it would have been out of character for Spring, so I have a hard time with this with this critique. But I think that She struggles with her relationship with her grandfather, like the whole book.
00:52:50
Speaker
And then he saves her and he dies. And then she's kind of like, she talks to her brother and hes she's like, oh man, I didn't really get to work things out with him. And he's like, well, and they have like literally a, she says, he says, she says, all right, you're probably right.
00:53:02
Speaker
And that's it, right? Like the internal struggle is just not prolonged enough. And I don't think it feels accurate. Most people would struggle with this for more than one paragraph of time. Yeah.
00:53:15
Speaker
So, well, yeah, I mean, and that's what I'm talking about with the emotional manipulation. Like any of these scenes with her grandfather toward the end could have been. oh yeah.
00:53:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You know, or like you were saying earlier, how Beverly Jenkins is the queen of just like the casual, like casual trauma drop. Like any of those scenes could have been written to like pull on the reader's heartstrings.
00:53:42
Speaker
Because the content is there. And I understand like. Like if your project is. um Telling joyful stories. About black Americans. Then maybe we don't want to like sit in the trauma.
00:53:54
Speaker
That's okay. So like I understand why like maybe yeah she made. some of these choices um and like acknowledging that it happened, but then not sitting in the trauma of it. But as a reader who reads for emotional catharsis, I feel like it's a missed opportunity. Well, and i will say, i i think, yeah, it's a missed opportunity. But in it i I wonder if it's deliberate or not. the The part where, because I thought she really did have some good tension when she finally tells her brother like what she actually went through because he's been pushing for this reconciliation. And she's like, okay, well, this is what happened. And then he's like, oh shit.
00:54:24
Speaker
But even that reconciliation, like the follow-up to that is Spring talking to her brother's wife about it. you know Oh, he's really hung up. I've never seen him cry so much. Why didn't you show us that?
00:54:35
Speaker
Why didn't you show us him grappling with this? Like that would have been, or like giving us little hints. Don't tell me, show me. There's that, that's the writing golden rule. And I feel like that's one of the things that she struggles with is she just gives it to you.
00:54:48
Speaker
And I think part of that is that, in and I do wonder because when I read the author's explanation of this book, I don't think she and initially initially intended spring to have like her own whole book in this series. um But people really loved spring and they wanted her to have like, you know, so it it became a thing that she wanted it to have. But I think there was just too, there were too many threads that she was trying to carry through in here.
00:55:09
Speaker
And if she had really unpacked even like half of what she'd like surprise, you know, nonchalantly dumped on you, it would have been like twice
Character-Driven Stories in Westerns
00:55:17
Speaker
as long. yeah So I think that she was just trying to do so much. I mean, spring, it's like, you know, you only see her job for like what one chapter where she's breaking the horses.
00:55:27
Speaker
This is sure. Her life is just so full that I don't know how you unpack all this stuff. and I think that it was kind of just maybe a bit of a mist, you know, but, but I did like the relationship.
00:55:38
Speaker
so So let's talk about the relationship in the context of, so you guys are feeling good about the relationship. Honestly, I left feeling good about the relationship because they are on the same page, but ah but we have another little moment at the end where we're dealing with like yet another Hey, this is actually going to be an issue. And I feel like I recall spring thinking early in the book that she doesn't want ah husband or children.
00:56:06
Speaker
Right. um But Garrett doesn't know that. And so he wants a freeborn child. Like she but Jenkins talks about this. It's an important thing in like formerly enslaved families when the first freeborn child is born. Yeah.
00:56:25
Speaker
And, and there's ah component of that he wants that. And i just thought, i mean, I'm curious to know you guys' thoughts as we were going through this process of like, he says that he wants to have a child with her and then she's like,
00:56:43
Speaker
record scratch and is like I don't want that I had very mixed feelings about how the trajectory of that uh conflict went because on the one hand like Garrett had this vision of wanting this experience and spring did not And then she like drops this bomb on him and he reels and he needed space to be able to do that.
00:57:13
Speaker
Right. But her response. So her response on the one hand is giving him the space to do that. Right. But also she disappears on him without further conversation the day that he's going back on the train.
00:57:27
Speaker
So that was like. like He deserves the space to really think about this because this is a two yes, one no conversation and and a legitimate incompatibility. And I liked that when they were on the train, his mom was like, you know, he's talking about this. He's kind of processing it, which he should be doing.
00:57:49
Speaker
And his mom's like, OK, then don't be with her. Yeah. If you want kids, she's not the woman for you, which is exactly what, you know, he needs to hear. And he ultimately makes the decision that he wants to be with Spring, which fine.
00:58:03
Speaker
But I think that there, ah the conflict He went back and he apologized for like having those feelings and expectations. And I did not like that. Like, yeah should he have asked instead of just expecting it?
00:58:16
Speaker
Sure. Maybe. they started the conversation. Well, I mean. it He doesn't need to apologize. Yeah. And it wasn't like. Yeah. I mean, and the way it goes down is he's like, you know, they're in bed together And he's telling her that he's going to come back. He wants to stay in Wyoming. He's going to come back for her.
00:58:37
Speaker
That he can't wait to build a life for her and, like, have babies with her. Right? It's not even, like, he's like, let's get pregnant now. Like, don't use a sponge. Like, he's just like, I can't wait in the future to, like, build a family with you.
00:58:50
Speaker
Right? And yeah. mean, it didn't bother me, and this is why. Because the entire book, he's been super clear that, like, whatever form of a relationship she wants to offer him that's what he wants to do so for me it actually was more in character for him to be like oh like kind of quickly be like oh yeah duh like this is stupid obviously i just want to be with her because that's been the pattern in the whole book I think that and especially since the reason he wanted to do it wasn't because he's like I've always wanted to be a dad he's like freeborn babies and then when his mom's like you're released from this expectation like If you want to be with, you don't even know if you're going to be able to have kids, if she's going to be going able to have kids.
00:59:24
Speaker
Like, so for me, it was more of like he had, it was more that he had a brief moment of going out of character because of societal expectations and then pulled it back together and was like, oh yeah, this is who I am. So I didn't, I wasn't bothered. Right. Well, you're right. And like right before then, hit didn't he have a conversation with his dad about how his dad was looking forward to Right. And that's where it came up. And that's definitely where the conversation came from. And he's like, I'll see what I can do, dad.
00:59:49
Speaker
Yeah, but and then she's like, I'm the one who'd be having these. babies So but you're so you're both feeling like there's not anything in the text to support that he has had like this long term desire for children and that we're dealing with an emotional incompatibility.
01:00:06
Speaker
He just had to process his expectations. Well, right. And I think that part of it is like reading it with a romance reader brain. Right.
01:00:17
Speaker
Because many other authors would take Spring's desire to be child-free And make it a whole central part of the conflict. Yes.
01:00:28
Speaker
Right? and And milk it. And Jenkins is like, I'm not going to milk it. He's just going to have this moment where he has to reset his expectations and then that's it.
01:00:38
Speaker
right And so as a romance reader who's like, i you know I'm looking for certain emotional beats, I'm looking for certain levels of conflict, I'm like, whoa, whoa, that's that's like not how it I was expecting it to go.
01:00:53
Speaker
But now that we're talking about it, I'm like, oh, but actually it it's not like it was built into character. Right. I agree with that. yeah But I do get your gut instinct of knee jerk because it did again. But I think it's more a symptom of what you had said earlier, Erin, about um just that the resolution was maybe too fast.
01:01:09
Speaker
So maybe it's not the content of the resolution, but the way it was executed that just kind of felt like, oh, seriously? Well, yeah, this is a big I think it it comes in as this last conflict right at the like everything starting to pull together point of the book.
Book Conclusion and Character Futures
01:01:23
Speaker
As he is about to leave. So yes. I agree with Holly's statement. That Jenkins is choosing not to milk it. But at the same time. like This is the last big hurdle.
01:01:34
Speaker
That we're dealing with. And it becomes another non-hurdle. But also. yeah Like I said. i just I am totally cool. With them making their choices. like Somebody who.
01:01:48
Speaker
Thought they wanted kids. Meets somebody and is like. You know what? Actually I'd be fine with. Not doing that. This is what I want instead. That's fine. People can change their minds or realize something about themselves or whatever.
01:02:02
Speaker
ah The fact that she just peaced out on him, I did not love, even though they kind of needed some space. But I also did not love that he came back and apologized for having feelings and like expectations as opposed to apologizing for not discussing them with her in a different way.
01:02:24
Speaker
Or like, you know, like as a expressing it as an expectation rather than a question about what they both wanted for the future. I would have appreciated that. That's actually a good point. Yeah. I think character wise too. I mean, obviously spring doesn't, she's kind of Teflon, but I, she's had so much abandonment that I kind of would have seen that now that you bring that up. I kind of would have seen that as being the, not, not necessarily the content, but the abandonment thing. I would see that as being a problem.
01:02:49
Speaker
you know what I mean? I would see her having some feelings about that, but you know, We're sitting here and like nitpicking. I it's you know, this is definitely like more of a that's her writing. I think her writing style is um she's as she strolls.
01:03:00
Speaker
She doesn't run. And I think the reason that we're picking up on a lot of it is because when you have a book with like these, like we said, nonchalant trauma bombs and stuff. we expect there to be more tension than this. And so I think it's, there's kind of like, it's, we have a bit of a juxtaposition here. That's maybe this is just, it's not our usual comfort zone. Cause it's kind of like, all right, but are we just going to walk past? I guess we are. We're just going to walk past that by terrible trauma event. So, um, so I had also brought up at the beginning yeah and we haven't touched on it yet, but I thought it was just to close maybe this out.
01:03:31
Speaker
Big picture wise in silver lining. I brought up sort of this juxtaposition between wild rain and the town and like silver lining and the town. And there's, there's a moment in wild rain where spring, think it was spring. It's just like, I don't care what they think.
01:03:49
Speaker
And she doesn't, and it doesn't matter. And then you have the silver lining situation where they're not even worried about what other people think. I mean, I think they're very worried about what other people think, but it's not even about that. It's about they're not meeting social expectations and therefore the they are punished socially by the entire community. right So I thought it was interesting that we have like on the one hand, they don't care and there are no consequences versus there are huge consequences because you're living in this insular community where that is possible.
01:04:27
Speaker
Well, I think that's interesting. It's Western justice, right? We might look for that in future books, though, because it's kind of that Western justice because they did they were these small towns that had like maybe one sheriff. And so their way of solving problems is social ostracizing and stuff like that.
01:04:39
Speaker
I will say this. There is social ostracizing in Wild Rain. It's just that it happens against the bad guy. yeah So there's that. Anyway, Holly, go ahead. Well, I mean, and then like bringing it back to our bigger discussion in marrying off Morgan McBride, social ostracism as a tool is not even ah consideration.
01:05:00
Speaker
Like Junebug does not behave in socially acceptable ways. Ever. Ever. But everybody just kind of thinks she's charming. But it's plot driver. it's like no big deal. Because it motivates Pip avoiding social opposition. No, but even like the non-plot driver stuff where she likes to like go into town and just like hang out and gossip with everybody and eat a lot of cake.
01:05:20
Speaker
it It drives her brothers crazy. But everybody else is just like, ah, ah she's just like a charming kid. And like, of course, I'm just going to skip. Yeah, well, for Junebug. Yeah. But one of Pip's big motivators for pushing in an area where she would never normally push because she's such a lady is that she does not want to go home and face the ostracism of being an unchosen one. So I think there is some ostracism in that book. It's just...
01:05:43
Speaker
You're right. But it's like it ostracism happens in the Midwest where people are closed minded, not out in this isolated town. i mean, maybe it's, you know, you're talking about like vigilante justice and like, you know, matt these like isolated communities. And maybe this community in Montana is so isolated that there's not space for that, for ostracism, for like piddly stuff.
01:06:05
Speaker
Okay, guys. So i I feel like we've gotten really into the weeds in these two books and like how they work. But maybe we should back up to talk about Westerns a little more. So can we go to microtropes? That's something we've been talking time. I love microtropes. They're my favorite.
01:06:19
Speaker
Yeah. So – Okay, so here's the ones we have listed from the other books we've read. Sour breath, dusty clothes, pies, is it dirt or is it tan, calloused hands, chores, getting clean, coffee, and baking bread.
Microtropes and Cultural Elements
01:06:33
Speaker
And so here's the thing. Like, there's no sour breath. We're done with that, apparently. No sour breath. Like, no dusty clothes, right? No. No. No, is it dirt or is it tan?
01:06:43
Speaker
they did. And, like, no getting clean. Morgan McBride. Oh, no, but remember in Spring Rain, there's couple competitions about the bath, too. Okay. But no, but the bath was more like therapeutic because like his leg hurt, not because like road dust. feel like we like getting clean. But also, so Spring had like indoor plumbing, right? Yeah. So that was fancy. We're not dealing with... Yeah.
01:07:03
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And like a hot water heater. Pulling in the tub. Just bathing in the river situation. Yeah. Unlike the McBrides who like don't even have an indoor kitchen. Pip did worry about her clothes getting dusty, dirty, wrinkled.
01:07:18
Speaker
That's true. As she was working. So she specifically asks for an apron, right? And then she gets to wear Morgan's flannel shirt. but I want to add one. i want to add one that I've seen in a bunch of the books.
01:07:29
Speaker
Okay. Bacon. Bacon. Crispy bacon. Sizzling bacon. Finally, we get to have bacon. Bacon. Bacon. Bacon. yeah Always there's bacon in the pan.
01:07:41
Speaker
This is bacon. and yeah like Yeah. Which makes sense because it's cattle stuff, you know. There's a lot of meat consumption. Yeah. But no butchery. Like, ah there's no discussion about where we're getting that bacon. There's a tiny bit in ah Wild Rain about how, like, ah money's tight and so she couldn't buy, like, pigs to make bacon this year. Which I was like, girl, money's tight.
01:08:05
Speaker
You have indoor plumbing? Like, what's going on? I have another one. Hold on. Let me get it. ah The bullet just went through. ah So through and through. yeah Dig it out with a knife. oh Have some whiskey. yeah it a Bullet status. We can call it bullet Or alternatively, we have to dig it out. and I noticed that one. yeah
01:08:25
Speaker
I love that. Yeah. um And the last one that I noticed was Sweet Grass. Oh, yeah. That is true. That is a very Western thing. Man, they were talking about walking through grass. I don't even know if it was just these two books. And I was just like...
01:08:39
Speaker
I hope they don't get all these ticks. I was picturing fluffy green grass that was like goes between your toes, not we need to check for ticks afterwards, which I'm surprised that's not more prevalent in Westerns. Tick checks. Come on now. I can see why not though.
01:08:51
Speaker
yeah It's just responsible. Okay. What about cooking over a fire? Yeah. Because that's consistent throughout, right? We get lots of cooking over a fire. Even in the one where she's like, oh, I have to learn how to cook in this fancy stove because she's used to cooking over a fire.
01:09:08
Speaker
Yeah. I can't narrow this down. Maybe you guys can help me. Something about train rides. Oh, right now I'm thinking the tickets. train tickets something about because we got to get a ticket or I have enough money for a ticket or I spent my last money on a ticket at the depot yeah there was a lot of like ah these two books especially had a lot of talk about train tickets and like trains as transportation Can I afford a ticket? When can I afford a ticket? How far can I go?
01:09:33
Speaker
yeah They take the train to get there and then that's it. They spend all their money on this ticket. yeah You know what I mean? Yeah. The ticket is like the entry to adventure or the end of an adventure, like the train tickets. So it's the train, but the train also only goes so far.
01:09:47
Speaker
And then you have to take the adventure, buy wagon, horseback, whatever to the actual goal point. You guys are never, go you guys are going to hate me, but wouldn't it be so funny if we wrote our own mini romance with all of the microtropes that we come up with after this?
01:10:06
Speaker
Would you not just die of happiness to that? I mean, yeah, it would just, it would be like a lot of chores and cooking time. Yes. Like looking at this where it's, you know, there's all this emphasis on pies. i It is funny that the Morgan McBride is like, we don't care about pies. We just want cake. Yeah.
01:10:25
Speaker
And we had that whole conversation last time. And it was so well-timed. About pie versus cake and like how pies are the Western food. wanted something fancier. But cake is like the luxury food, right? So, okay. But just to wrap up our conversation, I think talking about microtropes, I think these books had a much lower emphasis on dirt than the first four books we read.
01:10:48
Speaker
And I wonder if it's just these books and or if we're going to see that again next week when we talk about the...
Upcoming Discussions on Queer Westerns
01:10:55
Speaker
the queer westerns okay so as we said um next week the last week of book discussion and hoedown showdown uh we're reading two queer westerns so we're reading ah heart and hand by rebel carter and they ain't proper by mb well ghoul i don't know i'm sorry author i don't know how to pronounce your name gruel but without an r anyway for full show notes you can go to smut report.com slash podcast yeah until then keep it smutty folks