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Hoedown Showdown: Queer Westerns
3 Plays2 minutes ago
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Transcript
Significant Age Gap and Emotional Maturity
00:00:01
Speaker
All right. Well, anyway, she's 21. He's 36. will's thirty six and like It's a big age gap. It's a big age gap. And the men are still ah incredibly emotionally immature, which is a shocker.
Introduction to Smut Report Podcast - Hoedown Showdown
00:00:14
Speaker
Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-smut-report! Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Smut Report podcast, Hoedown Showdown edition.
Final Week on Western Books & Recap Plans
00:00:22
Speaker
This week is our last week of talking about books, and then I think next week we're going to do like a little short overview recap of what we learned about Westerns and our feelings about them. But anyway, today...
Review of Queer Westerns: 'Heart and Hand' & 'They Ain't Proper'
00:00:36
Speaker
We read two queer or queerish Westerns that were published both in the last five years. So let's jump in. I'm Holly. I'm Ingrid.
00:00:47
Speaker
And I'm Erin. And we're the Smut Report team. So anyway, this week we read Heart and Hand by Rebel Carter and we read They Ain't Proper by MBT.
00:00:58
Speaker
Ghoul? Gwell? i don't know. And I'm sorry, guys. I feel like I really picked some duds this week, and which is a shame because I've read some like really great queer Westerns and maybe not really great, but definitely better than this gruffle Westerns.
00:01:15
Speaker
So...
Book Disappointments and Character Diversity
00:01:16
Speaker
You initially wanted to read one of the ones that you'd already read, and I feel like I was the one who poo-pooed that idea because you'd already read it, so... Yeah.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm sorry, also. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But both of these heart and hand I picked because like, I remember when it came out and it got a lot of buzz when it came out and like, it's been on my TBR for a while because the heroin is black and the cover is really pretty, all these things.
00:01:47
Speaker
And then they proper, i think was recommended when I asked for Western recommendations, but a couple of people recommended it because it's, got a non-binary slash trans protagonist.
00:02:00
Speaker
So that's why I picked them. And ah we we all had some feelings about these books. So should we jump into our one sentence summaries and then the feelings can all come out?
00:02:11
Speaker
Yes, let's do it. Okay. What do you want to start with, guys? Let's start with heart and hand.
Narrative Choices in 'Heart and Hand'
00:02:17
Speaker
All right. No, maybe we shouldn't start with heart and hand because we have so many feelings about it. i think it's probably best to do the proper but okay all right i'll start with my one sentence summary of they ain't proper great they ain't proper is about two people who are running away and their past catches up to them hu and also lewd jerks clementine around for like a thousand pages but that's my summary
00:02:48
Speaker
well This is going to be a juicy chit chat. I can tell already.
00:02:53
Speaker
Okay. yeah Yeah. My one sentence summary for that one. And I will be honest. I like was not engaged with this read. So I kind of half asked it. So sorry in advance for that gentle listeners, but I can't really disagree with
Character Dynamics in 'They Ain't Proper'
00:03:08
Speaker
Holly.
00:03:08
Speaker
So Lou and Clementine find themselves sort of stuck together due to a clerical error and then also like an excess of nobility on Lou's part and play house until their shady pasts come for them.
00:03:30
Speaker
ah like that. And the women at the saloon form an exceptional supporting cast. Okay. All right. but I think you've got all the pieces there, Erin.
00:03:42
Speaker
have to say. All right. Mine is Lou rescues Clementine. Clementine insta-loves Lou. Lou has a past they don't want to deal with.
00:03:54
Speaker
Clementine has a past she aggressively does want to deal with. And everything blows up in both of their faces. Ooh, that's good. Nicely done. I did that without meds today, guys. I forgot to take them.
00:04:08
Speaker
so proud. Sticky brain. Okay.
Immaturity in Relationships & Critique of Characters
00:04:10
Speaker
So then Heart in Hand by Rebel Carter. Will and Forrest are extremely codependent best friends. Yeah.
00:04:19
Speaker
who decide that they want a wife together to share so that they can have babies and a family.
00:04:29
Speaker
And bonus, she can be the teacher at the school. So Julie answers the ad, but is way too immature to handle this kind of relationship or probably any relationship at all in every regard. oo I'm going to go to battle with you, Aaron. I can tell already. Yeah.
00:04:49
Speaker
I mean, so here's my sentence is basically three people get married who have no business being in a throuple. Yes. That's really a ah fantastic summary. I mean, mine is probably something in the middle of yours, which is and that Julie educated, brilliant, capable young woman marries two older dudes. Like a lot older.
00:05:15
Speaker
Yeah, two older dudes who, so, you know, at this point, we have Forrest and Will, who cooked up a daydream for what kind of wife they wanted to have, but didn't take a whole lot of time to actually meet this wife personally, went face to face with her in a mutually intimate way.
00:05:35
Speaker
They just kind of took a beautiful bird and put it in a cage and we're like what a pretty bird we have and then there was a whole lot gaslighting they gaslight Julie they gaslight the yeah that was really irritating the everything about this book was so infuriating I was just like Why?
00:05:58
Speaker
but i was when I tell you how and emotionally invested I was, everything was cooking up. Like we were going get this fantastic closure. And then she apologized.
Plot Deep Dive and Critique of Character Behavior
00:06:08
Speaker
And I was like, i no, sir.
00:06:11
Speaker
Nope. It was the second time she did it though, because there was a time in the middle where Will is being a person that we do not care for. And and Julie and Forrest are together. Like, mind you, if you were in a throuple, you need to have conversations about what the expectations are for interactions and including how bedroom engagement is supposed to go.
00:06:44
Speaker
So Will gets jealous. with So Julie is PO'd at Will. Well, hold up, Erin. We should do some background before you get into this. I can see it cooking. You have a really good take here.
00:06:55
Speaker
So you're talking about the scene where... senator I'm gonna give a little bit of background so you know Julie arrives in town and she has been corresponding with these men for a year now and she knows she's gonna marry two of them but she doesn't know she's been writing with both of them she thinks she's only been writing with one and that's like red flag number one Number one. Number one. Number one.
00:07:20
Speaker
and Line them up. And she arrives and they're like, let's get married today. and she's like, okay, red flag number two. And they take her back to their mansion, their starter mansion. No, no.
00:07:36
Speaker
They're like, no, no. what There's a red flag number three you're missing here. Red flag number three is, oh, and by the way, we've invited the whole town without talking to you because we're having a little performative moment. So everyone loves our marriage. Yeah.
00:07:48
Speaker
Number three. All right. Number three. Anyway, carry on there's there's many red flags. So many. So they go back to their starter mansion, which for me was red flag number four, because how does the sheriff afford a house in the wilds of Montana with 10 bedrooms, a parlor, a library, a formal dining room, a casual dining room, and like, I don't even know what else.
00:08:13
Speaker
Well, it was six bedrooms, but you, yes, you're absolutely dead right. And it's never explained. This is never explained. The number of threads that are like set up and then just dropped. I can't anyway, go ahead. So she's married to a pair of billionaire sheriffs um who are definitely crooked because that's the only way they have this much money.
00:08:31
Speaker
Because they very clearly state that they don't come from family money. So they're in this house, but they didn't furnish it. And she's like, well, why not? don't understand. And they're like, oh it's because we wanted to let you buy the furniture.
00:08:45
Speaker
And then, so they're going to go furniture shopping in this tiny Western boomtown that apparently has like six restaurants and also three furniture stores and a bookshop.
00:08:56
Speaker
So I was really mad that this is like not a Western. This is just like a small town throuple romance where we want to pretend we're in history, but we're not. It has no sense of place. No. Yeah.
00:09:07
Speaker
But we can get there. We'll get back to that. And sorry, I am going off topic. I'm supposed to be setting the scene. So anyway, so the three of them are going to go into town to go shopping for their home together to make it their home together.
00:09:21
Speaker
And they get there and Will goes and talks to the evil other woman and doesn't show up. Rosemary. Rosemary. And doesn't show up to their meeting.
00:09:33
Speaker
Not only does he he not show up, sorry, i yeah I was really invested in this. So like, I i don't mean to be very rude and correct you. no But I was like into it. The first time Will bails on their shopping because he bails on herwe on them twice. But the first time is because they show up to the sheriff's office and Rosemary, this is the morning after their wedding night.
00:09:50
Speaker
And Rosemary has made him an intimate breakfast with like a flower on the table. And they're like sitting so close together. It's the description is that it's so close to there. There's not even room. Their plates are like touching. At this intimate table and they're sitting there and having this like really cutesy breakfast.
00:10:04
Speaker
And then he's like, I'll catch up. And then doesn't catch And so this is second time they're going to go shopping. And, you know, he went off to say something to Rosemary and doesn't come back. And they don't see him. And so they go shopping, just the two of them.
00:10:17
Speaker
And then go back to the house and have a sexy rumpus. And Will like still hasn't shown
Emotional Investment & Disappointment in Character Progression
00:10:23
Speaker
up. And then he shows up later. He's like, oh, you went shopping without me? o You had sex without me?
00:10:30
Speaker
it's all sad. And so now, Aaron, please do the analysis of the scene that you would like to do. Here's where I took off. So they didn't go to town together. They kind of met up in town because Julie was already teaching maybe. So she's already in town.
00:10:46
Speaker
She, I can't remember exactly the timeline. She might've already had like an and engagement with Rosemary at this point because Rosemary is antagonizing her intentionally. you mean this is the second time? So the second time she was going to get the housekeeper.
00:10:59
Speaker
And so she was going to go to the newspaper office. Rosemary was a turd about it. husband, town friend and I think this is important so I'm sorry Erin i you're i'm we're setting you up you're going to it out the park it's gonna be great don't forget your thought but at this point this is like the fourth or fifth time too by the way that townspeople have been like this is so messed up that Rosemary is chasing after Will like that like Will's such an idiot so she's watching Rosemary flirt up Will yeah and her friend is like yeah this lady's coming on real strong you're being crazy if you think that that you're poo-pooing it like you're not wrong this is super inappropriate and then carry on Erin So she is like, you know what?
00:11:36
Speaker
f that guy. Let's go shopping, Forrest. So like they were they were going to do this tasks. And Julie was like, you know what? If he doesn't make this a priority, then I'm not worried about it. And Forrest sits there and is like, but OK, like he's not going to argue in favor of Will, but he's also not acknowledging Will's behavior or calling him out. Nope. Just makes excuses.
00:11:56
Speaker
So they end up back at the ranch and kind of have a fight. And it's like one of those sex scenes that's supposed to be like hot energy. Like we're antagonizing each other and you can't tell me what to do. And he's like, I'm going to put you over my knee kind of a situation. She's like, try me.
00:12:13
Speaker
And then. They have been avoiding having PNV sex with her since their marriage. It's definitely a female gaze fantasy where there are two men pleasuring one woman. i was going to look it up.
00:12:28
Speaker
I read that this was, and I thought it was also when I picked it up, that this was an and MMF romance, as in the men also have a relationship with each other.
00:12:40
Speaker
But no, they're just codependent. best friends who don't understand how to have healthy relationships with their significant others so will and forest don't have sex with each other they only have sex with julie so it's just about pleasuring her but they've been avoiding having pnb sex so finally basically the ah the idea is julie goads forest into consummating their marriage i guess and they have it it's great everything is wonderful it's so beautiful by the time they're done with it and then they go downstairs and they're both like on cloud nine about the arc the day has taken and will is sitting at the table he eating rosemary's pie probably like we can talk about i feel like we can have a whole conversation about this pie but continue yeah
00:13:32
Speaker
pouting and everybody knows that he's mad but nobody is actually saying anything because will is just like i'm not mad i don't know what you're talking about i'm clearly a dark cloud but i'm not mad and forest stands there like a twig and does nothing again as with all moments of this book and then julie is like oh i never considered how he might feel being left out of this interlude he just left you He just left you out.
00:14:04
Speaker
He must be so sad. I better apologize. Girl, no. Can I? He prioritized that other woman over you and he is not acknowledging that in any way. Neither is anybody. Like, we'll get a clue.
00:14:22
Speaker
Okay. No, it's so much worse. And the way he explains it at the end, I was just like, I am dying right now. No, so I'm going to do my own. I'm going to do my own little soapbox, Erin, because you
Continued Analysis of Character Relationships
00:14:32
Speaker
did that great and I thought it was fantastic, but I'm not done. So here's the situation.
00:14:36
Speaker
I'm going to lay it out here because I was i was super invested, guys. like i I really thought that she was going to set it up to like there was going to be a grovel. There was going to be ah makeup thing. an apology to end all apologies. I don't know why I believed it. I really believed it because this is- Well, are you talking about at the end or at the beginning? Or the first? All of it.
00:14:56
Speaker
i I was like, there's they're just it's going to be beautiful because I'm sitting here thinking like, we are all in this together. The townspeople, Julie, me, we're all seeing it. We all see it happening, right?
00:15:07
Speaker
Will insults her dress on their wedding night and then apologizes for it. Okay, there's slip number one. Morning after the wedding, he's having breakfast with a chick in the privacy of the sheriff's office. It's not even like out in public. in you know what I mean? Like they're eating privately together. She's a widow. It's a whole thing.
00:15:23
Speaker
Number two, he constantly and consistently chooses Rosemary's comfort over Julie's. It's not like they yeah they know. They know that Julie is uncomfortable with Rosemary. She says, I don't want her in my house. Mm-hmm.
00:15:36
Speaker
Like she's for being really young and naive. She's actually pretty clear about it. Like, I don't feel comfortable with this chick. She's crossing over boundaries. Rosemary screws her over and declines to tell her that like, oh, you're responsible for setting up this dance and in a week and nobody told you about it.
00:15:53
Speaker
But actually it wasn't even her responsibility. Rosemary just dumped it on her. Like it's a whole thing. And the whole time, these two men, like we want to blame Will. Forrest was 110% complicit.
00:16:04
Speaker
Because the entire time he's like, just be patient with him. ah His trauma. No, he's making really hurtful choices. Hurtful choices. The whole time. And then I'm sitting here thinking like, all right.
00:16:15
Speaker
So Forrest has to go off on this thing. He goes off to do his but his sheriff business, which still is bewildering to me. that doesn't his Their whole job makes no sense to me, but whatever. And then they have the dance. And one, at this point, Julie's been...
00:16:28
Speaker
sick she's been feeling poorly right so will's been helping with the dance and so they go to the dance and she one he doesn't dance with her he dances with rosemary publicly publicly and then one of her students parents comes over and like flat out calls it out like this is this sucks i'm really sorry and i think he's even like but you know like he loves you everyone's always like this sucks he's treating you really badly but he really loves you that's like the the refrain throughout the whole book so this poor young woman is like stuck here in in this like no man's land of, well, he loves you, but he treats you terribly, which I am so sick of seeing this in books. Like, let's stop this now.
00:17:00
Speaker
And then she overhears this conversation that can in no way be taken as a responsible and mature conversation where he, where Will is letting down Rosemary. Will is making excuses, like flat out. She's like, we can be together. You wanted me.
00:17:14
Speaker
So here's where we figure out Literally, the whole setup here is that Rosemary and Will were cool getting married. It
Narrative Choices and Reader Satisfaction
00:17:22
Speaker
was the idea. But Forrest said no. like He was like, I don't think she's the one for us.
00:17:26
Speaker
So Julie knows that like she's like, well, I'm second choice to Will. He wanted her first. You know what I mean? And Will, in this this conversation that she overhears, Rosemary's like, but you want me. Like, you it was going to be fine. Like, you don't even want kids.
00:17:39
Speaker
Like, and I can't have kids. it would be perfect. So let Forrest have Julie and you be with me. And never once is Will like, I love my wife. He says, I promised before God to be her husband. Mm-hmm. There's obligation.
00:17:52
Speaker
He says she's pregnant. One, didn't even tell his fucking wife that she was pregnant. That's her fucking body. Well, and also, also, he's like... ah He can tell that she's pregnant, like is so in tune with the female body that he just knows she's pregnant before she does.
00:18:07
Speaker
But also thinks that he can't dance with her because it might hurt the Because she's pregnant. It's too early in your pregnancy. Are you on drug? Like, I don't understand this. And then, right?
00:18:17
Speaker
And then here's what drives me nuts. And it's not like him saying she's pregnant is like in the context where this changes everything. i' I've fallen in love with her. She's having my baby. We're going family. Rosemary had just told Julie that the only way he would ever stay with her was if she got pregnant and it would be ah out of obligation.
00:18:35
Speaker
So this is confirming literally all of Julie's worst fears at this point. And Will does nothing to refute that. Nothing. And then she's like, fuck that shit. I'm out of here. And she bounces, gets caught by Forrest, drags her back. And this is where I'm like, thank God, this is going to feel so good.
00:18:52
Speaker
I am so excited because he really screwed the pooch here. I saw it. The townspeople all saw it. We're all in on it together. The only dum-dums here are Forrest and Will. And then they sit down and have it out.
00:19:04
Speaker
And Julie apologizes. ah Will's like, I turned her down multiple times. No, you didn't. And I'm like, one, That doesn't make it any better. So you're setting this up so that you here you're in a position to turn her down multiple times.
00:19:16
Speaker
What kind guy does that? If you have to turn a woman down multiple times, that doesn't make you a noble guy. That makes you an asshole because you're constantly putting yourself in the position to have to turn someone down.
00:19:27
Speaker
And also, you're clearly not turning her down clearly enough. No, you're failing at this. yeah This isn't noble. You suck. Like the rage, the rage. And the fact that Forrest was like, I left and I thought you guys would have time to bond and this would get better.
00:19:43
Speaker
Where on earth did you think that was going to get better, Forrest? Because you just said Will's emotionally constipated and doesn't know what he's doing.
Setting and Historical Context in Westerns
00:19:49
Speaker
You thought that that was going fine? No, you set you you just were like, figure it out, guys, because that's what Forrest does. He just makes excuses for shit.
00:19:57
Speaker
they were both so enraged. I was so mad. I almost threw my phone across the room when I was finished because then I was sitting there like, okay, it's going to get better. There was one chapter left. Surely that they're going to pull it together. Nope. Nope.
00:20:08
Speaker
There are no explanations for anything. And what happens to Rosemary? What happens there? What happens? Nothing is explained. Nothing is resolved. just keeps working at the newspaper. Like, what did you do about this problem? You were just like, oh, silly woman.
00:20:21
Speaker
I will continue to say no to this woman every time we go on public dates from now on. Don't you fret. It was the worst. I was so mad. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry I went off.
00:20:32
Speaker
I feel like you sometimes, well, I was just focused on the first time that she apologized. So then we get to the second time, like you've just described. And I felt, I felt the same way, except for I was also focused on the whole premise.
00:20:44
Speaker
I think we can get a little bit into the sense of place, like setting both maybe time and place because Julie is like, we focus on how she's really young.
00:20:56
Speaker
I felt like there was a lot of not like other girls stuff going on. She's a, she's an, heiress in new york but she doesn't want to marry the annoying people that she spent her whole life around so she decides to answer an advertisement and marry two random dudes there hol The whole premise of their relationship needing to be the way it is, is like bananas. It's absolutely bananas.
00:21:29
Speaker
Because if Will and Forrest are not in a relationship together... Even, don't know, like a queer platonic relationship. Like, why do they both need to marry one woman? Right. That is something that... Why can they not have a healthy enough relationship to make whatever connections they need to make with another person romantically and then still maintain their friendship? Right. Because it's weird.
00:21:56
Speaker
That's why. there's so I'm sorry. It's just a bad premise for a relationship because it is entirely based on how problematically codependent these guys are. It's a fantasy. deal And also, I mean, bringing this back to the Western. So we had a note in week one, we talked about women and it's a scarce commodity.
00:22:17
Speaker
Right. And if you are living in this premise where women are continue to be a scarce commodity, then like maybe that would make sense. But in the world of the this particular book, women are not a scarce commodity.
00:22:31
Speaker
They're in fact so unscaresed that there's an evil other woman who's she's not a prostitute. She's a widow. She's well educated. She works at the newspaper. Like there are plenty of women around They had 100 applicants. they had 100 applicants.
00:22:46
Speaker
And maybe some of them were like Rosemary so being a sock puppet. But like...
00:22:52
Speaker
Pick me!
Comparison with Other Westerns & Missed Opportunities
00:22:54
Speaker
Right? But like, I was thinking about, I've read, Ariel Italics has also written several Western throuple books.
00:23:03
Speaker
And they're in California, and they're but they're set in the gold rush. And the setup for all of these books is, here are two men who, in a homosocial space, like, had sex for fun, and then decided that actually they were in love,
00:23:20
Speaker
And then when they meet like the one woman in a hundred, they're like, Oh, we better get on that. And we'll share her because there aren't enough women to go around. And also we're kind of in love with each other. Right. And so like, there is a way to make this set up work within yeah like the logic of the genre. And, but this book,
00:23:38
Speaker
doesn't do that it does not do it it's like too busy ah being so caught up in other woman drama like and a lot of it is like you know what rosemary has a point She does have a point.
00:23:51
Speaker
She have a point. Like, it seems like the scarcity here is good men for the single women to marry. and she and Will do clearly have a bond.
00:24:01
Speaker
And he can talk about how she's manipulative or whatever, but he doesn't act like that with her. he Seems to enjoy himself with her. And yeah if I were her, I would be doing the stuff she's doing too. Because.
00:24:18
Speaker
the and and it doesn't ever get better. they Will and Rosemary very much seem to have a relationship. Yeah. And the whole thing with Julie is, you know, she's, she's young and she's naive and she's also, she's completely out of her element. This is new. Like this is a new environment.
00:24:35
Speaker
It's a new, it's a new way of living. And i felt so much empathy. I just felt so sorry for her the whole time. Even when she was getting frustrated or sad, the apple pie thing broke my damn heart where she sees Rosemary walking away from their ranch and they run into each other. They talk, she sees her carrying a plate with the,
00:24:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
forest do their thing and then what do you know wil is eating the pie and there's a yellow towel on the counter so rosemary could have just hand the pie to julie which is noted in the text but on purpose it was for will and there's all these baked goods coming in and they both think like oh ha ha silly julie she' is so jealous about this pie Like it's out in the open. They know she's jealous. She slams it on the counter. They make a comment about it. And yet Will continues, like tortures her by bringing in fresh baked treats from Julie all the time. And then they're all commenting on how she can't cook or bake. So she goes out and gets a ah cook. And the only thing she says is, I just want you to teach me how to make an apple pie.
00:25:33
Speaker
And I was just like, i was so angry with Will and Forrest for treating her. So it was callous. I mean, it was that's cruelty. That's casual cruelty. I think it was really awful that they didn't.
00:25:45
Speaker
Best case scenario, they were so clueless about the social aspect of what is happening in that scenario. Like that's best case scenario is that they're just lacking awareness because they're in their environment and this is how it's been. And why would they expect it to be different now that they have a wife?
00:26:07
Speaker
But like it is not that hard. To put it together that what might be appropriate for two single men would not be appropriate for married men, especially in a context of like, like Ingrid said, if they were having breakfast in a public location, like you can still have friends. Yeah.
00:26:31
Speaker
But the privacy component of it and the intimacy component of it especially when there's a lack of intimacy due to not really knowing each other yet in the marriage, becomes a huge problem. And just the complete lack of awareness or caring about that is a huge problem. I will say, though, i got really frustrated with Julie because at no point Did she ever communicate her feelings? Like she got mad and like threw the pie on the counter.
00:27:03
Speaker
But Julie keeps on having these feelings and she's trying so hard to be a like good wife or good lady, even though she left New York because she didn't want to deal with the BS of being a good lady.
Gender Dynamics and Stereotypes
00:27:19
Speaker
And she ends up running away because she refuses to communicate. Like, I would have preferred an explosion on her part. Yes. Of like, no, you're wrong. You're treating me badly. Like, guess I told you that Rosemary makes me uncomfortable and you didn't care.
00:27:37
Speaker
Yes. Yes, Erin. tell the hurry and she refuses and refuses and refuses to explain why she left which valid reasons i mean this is after hearing will talk to rosemary but not reject her like ingre described right But even after she gets back, Forrest is like, why are you leaving? What happened? And she just absolutely refuses to disclose what's going on with her. Like, speak up.
00:28:08
Speaker
Until Forrest is just like, oh my gosh, we're going to have a baby. like, yeah is like 100% not present. While Will is over here making excuses.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not until I think I'm right about how this went. It was probably good that she didn't fully disclose until after Will had kind of explained everything because he could have just spun it to make excuses for why she was the one and Rosemary wasn't. If she had been clear about it, maybe I don't know. But like he's over here making excuses and excuses. And no, I already rejected her multiple times. And like, you're just wrong about everything that you think, you know, basically.
00:28:52
Speaker
And then she apologizes. She's like, oh, sorry, I misunderstood. It's like, oh, my God. no rejecting being married to Rosemary.
00:29:03
Speaker
He's not rejecting the relationship that they are very publicly and currently having. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's anyway, I 100% agree with Aaron. I was very frustrated with the book.
00:29:14
Speaker
And it's sad because I feel like it had a lot of promise. I like the writing style. I thought it was engaging. i thought there was a lot of. possibility there. Like I said, I think that for me, because I want to know what what the characters are thinking and why they operate and like why they're doing what they're doing. And there were parts that actually really did... i got uncomfortable and not because this is different. I don't i could care less that it's a throuple. We read those all the time. That's not the problem here. The problem is there were times when Will and Forrest were talking about her and the way that they
Concluding Critique and Resolution Failure
00:29:43
Speaker
act. And it's very clear. it's a
00:29:44
Speaker
I felt this is an immature immaturely written story. So like yeah Will and Forrest... the way they read, they read as being borderline obsessed with this ideal, this vision that they had. And you could plug and play anyone.
00:29:59
Speaker
There's no indication that they, like when they talk about what they love about Julie, it's what she's providing. It's the, it's that she's fulfilling the role that they wanted. And they'd say frequently, it it has to be you. It had to be you It had to be her because of the way that she ticks off all their boxes.
00:30:17
Speaker
It's not because of, you know, like the, way she thinks this thing is funny or you know, the way she enjoys this or that. It's, it has nothing to do with who she is. And I was, the reason I feel that it's just the whole thing is an immature portrayal of, I don't know anyone our age who would be like, this is a great book.
00:30:35
Speaker
Like I really just, because i feel like what you, you're seeing the same shit we live every day, which is men find a fancy bird and they want to own the fancy bird and they want the fancy bird to be theirs, but they really don't give a shit about the fancy bird. Right. Right.
00:30:48
Speaker
And that despite her being 100% in the right about this stuff, she's going to end up apologizing and taking ownership of their emotional fumbling because she's the woman. And it's just, there's a grossness to it that was just kind of like, i there was i was uncomfortable at a certain point. and i really thought she I really did up until the end. I was like, she's going to pull it together.
00:31:07
Speaker
they're gonna they go and And then I was reading and the conflict happened at 93%. And I was like, ooh, It's not going to happen. And then it didn't. yeah So I think it could have very easily if the ending had been handled better and there had been more time to recover from Will and Forrest being creepy, emotionally insecure dickwads. It probably could have it could have been a hole in one. Really, it would have been a really messy one. Aaron and I probably would have argued over it on different sides.
00:31:33
Speaker
If they had pulled it off. But I agree. I have to. I just don't. It didn't. It was a swing and a miss for me. Well, OK, tying this back into our sense of place, like Holly said, it's more of a small town romance. I think there were opportunities here for like, OK, if you're out West and to a certain extent, when you are extremely remote, the law is what you make it.
00:31:57
Speaker
Right. like I mean, therere there are places in the United States also still where they're extremely remote and the social cohesion of the place matters more than what's happening elsewhere.
00:32:13
Speaker
Right. So there is an opportunity in an old west remote town for like I wouldn't be surprised i was gonna look it up but I didn't get that far but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't anything on the books about what constitutes a legal marriage so like okay you know and I wouldn't be surprised if a small town who knows
Setting and Genre Conventions in Westerns
00:32:42
Speaker
the you know two out of the three people in the relationship
00:32:46
Speaker
were to just be like but okay that's just how their household runs you know like there are aspects of this that is like fine i can absolutely see some buy-in there in the context of time and place setting but holly already alluded to this we're not seeing a lot of the other hallmarks of the old west right right i can't wait to go over microtropes for this one Like they live on a ranch and the men are the sheriff and the sheriff's deputy, which honestly also, i think. Could track. because Yes, because in small towns, there's not really enough work for the sheriff. hmm.
00:33:26
Speaker
And the sheriff's deputies to be employed 100% by the So they would have a ranch. So that's all fine. Although them having to go into the office every day also then doesn't track. Like, what is that? so there's just like but There's just so much here that's like not well thought out.
00:33:45
Speaker
about ah how this society functions in the context of a historical place but so like I just yeah couldn't like Holly there was like take it over yeah yeah it was like like the author kind of knew some western microtropes and put them in there but without the larger packaging of the other microtropes we've been talking about to like reinforce them it just fell flat yeah Yeah. I was just like, this isn't a Western. I guess, you know, people are always complaining about like wallpaper historicals and regencies, right? That this is, there's like people who are historical readers who are like, oh, wallpaper regencies.
00:34:22
Speaker
ah Right. And normally I'm like, oh, whatever. It's fine. People can do what they do. But then I read this. I'm like, oh, this is a wallpaper Western and I do not like it.
00:34:32
Speaker
So yeah I'm a little more... sympathetic to the wallpaper people now. But like, part of it is also because I feel like I'm willing to give Regency a pass just because it's like such a powerhouse subgenre. And I feel like you read Westerns because you'd want the stuff, right? Yeah, you want those ingredients.
00:34:51
Speaker
yeah and i will say and the labor and uh also it occurred to me that other little like weird things crop up like they're able to take home furniture the first the day that she and forrest go shopping first like they go will is like go talk to the carpenter because it's gonna take him a while to make a crib and yet they come home With like a dining room set, right?
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah. And three rocking chairs. Yeah. Which it's a small, like Holly said, this is a small town. Why would you have that kind of stock? That wouldn't make any sense. Yeah, no. go It would either have to get shipped in or you would have to commission it intentionally because nobody's, they might have a couple things on hand to show what they can do. Not like dining But yeah.
00:35:36
Speaker
It's like, oh well, somebody going to Oregon like needed to drop some weight from their wagon. Right, yeah. But wouldn't be a like some fancy thing. Right.
00:35:48
Speaker
so So there's that aspect of it. And then there's also the fact that Julie is an heiress and would have come with her own hope chest. Yeah. At a minimum.
00:36:00
Speaker
But i if she's that kind of heiress, they'd have had a train car full of furniture.
Transition to 'They Ain't Proper' & Western Themes
00:36:06
Speaker
I'm sorry, but they would have. Right. And she would have come with like her lady's maid. Yeah. She would have had someone with her.
00:36:11
Speaker
But I was also thinking about the point that Ingrid made, I don't remember which week it was, maybe even the first week, that a well-to-do woman who's respectable in society is not going to be the woman that is answering a mail-order bride ad. Yeah.
00:36:25
Speaker
So the fact that she has her family's support and all... She's worried about her reputation back home and like, what? Right. Like at least Pip had her brother came out with her. Yeah.
00:36:38
Speaker
Right. And her brother didn't even like her. Julian, Julie's twin brother. Like that was fun trying to listen to that first chapter.
00:36:49
Speaker
Like Julian should have come with her. Yeah. And that's the that's why I'm saying there's like this level of immaturity because I'm just like, ah that was the first thing I thought was like, oh, come on. Like he would have gone with her or somebody else would have gone with her. Like they would never have just put her on a train.
00:37:05
Speaker
Should we talk about they ain't proper? So we can we can definitely like sit here all day and nitpick this. But at a certain point, I think we do kind of have to just say like, all right, let's not be here all day. We have... Other exciting things to discuss now.
00:37:16
Speaker
So, okay, so they ain't proper. i feel like at least this book had a sense of place. Yes. Right? Oh, yes. And it felt like a Western. And the relationship in this I found extremely frustrating. So, like, so frustrating. And I felt like like the way the story was constructed was kind of a slog for me.
00:37:39
Speaker
But at least it felt like a Western. And I want to say, i really appreciated that the whores were actually characters. Yes! Unlike all the other books that we've seen where they we just talk about those bad women. Love those. And here they are. and like right and this this is another this is a case where we have a small town, and it's a small town that's explicitly outside the law, where people can go if they want to disappear or live in a weird way. Mm-hmm.
00:38:08
Speaker
yeah But unlike the town in Heart and Hand, this town, it felt like a Western space because what does that mean? It means that people look the other way and let you do your thing and won't narc on you when the marshals come. But it also means that like, maybe the bounty hunter is going to come and drag you away and nobody's going to help.
00:38:29
Speaker
Right? Right. Yep. That was... Right. Nobody's going to help. I think that's, there's a very independent spirit element going on. Yeah. Which I think supports what Holly said about why the other one felt more like small town and this one felt more Western.
00:38:44
Speaker
Because western Western's like, yes, there is some degree of support, but there's flip side of that coin, right? So yes, there are people who probably will support you because they did like the women from the tavern in They Ain't Proper.
00:38:57
Speaker
They did have people who were in their corner and who did all kinds of stuff to support them. But but there the side of that is you're going to fight for your life out here. Yeah. And I i actually, i will say this.
00:39:09
Speaker
So... if you if we take away the relationship thing, there were things I really loved about this book and why I thought that it was really, um really creatively done to have their relationship set where it was and in the time and having it be a Western.
Character Dynamics and Historical Context in 'They Ain't Proper'
00:39:23
Speaker
Because Lou is trans non non-binary. I mean, it's kind of historical. So did did she say, I mean, they don't, they don't say trans, right? They just say, i i ain't never been this and I ain't never been that either.
00:39:37
Speaker
So anyway, so I'm just me. Right. And then they use they them pronouns because they say, and I thought it was interesting. They cited having read ah third person pronoun in ah publishing, which is true. This is the everybody's argument is like, that's not right. It's like, well, it's been going on since the 1200s, actually. So yeah, it's a very common thing in spoken English and in written English, actually. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
So it does track that they would have identified ambiguously in the context and also been able to use they them pronouns because in context, so it does happen. Anyway, go on, Ingrid.
00:40:13
Speaker
Well, so I guess what I liked about it, the way I thought this was creatively done was that the environment reflected that dual sided coin, the people who really support you and make you feel seen and loved and will be there for you in the kind of dangerous and harsh environment of the West. I thought that kind of imitated in some ways the way that someone who doesn't conform to societal gender norms, how they might feel in our society sometimes.
00:40:40
Speaker
Do know it is? Does that make sense? Right. You have that on the one hand, you have these moments of like acceptance and tenderness, but on the other hand, you have to constantly be aware of your surroundings, right? Right. You have to learn when to let it roll off your back and when to pick a fight. I mean, it was it made it just worked in ah in a way that I wasn't expecting it to work that well.
00:40:59
Speaker
I really liked that a lot. But the relationship, we should talk about that. I want to hear what Holly thinks. No, I was just like... So you're really frustrated. So this is a slow burn, but lou keeps Lou does a lot of, well, I gotta i gotta to hold myself back for her good. Does that that thing that we all just love so much. Yeah, it was a lot of like...
00:41:24
Speaker
I'm going to pull you close and then push you away and then pull and like make you hope and then like give you the cold shoulder. It was a lot of that. And I just, I just felt bad for Clementine because Clementine like, wow, the first person in my life who treats me nice.
00:41:38
Speaker
I'm going to latch on to you. I have abandonment issues. I mean, fairly, because she didn't have an easy life. No, and no, she had like a horrible life. Horrible life. And like, ah and this one is a little fuzzy about the age, but i read Lou is also much older than Clementine. Well, because Lou also was in the war.
00:42:01
Speaker
But it wasn't clear what war. i like oh interesting. Right. So you're reading it as not.
Age Gaps and Internal Conflicts
00:42:07
Speaker
Because like they're like way out in Arizona or something. And Lou was fighting on the border.
00:42:13
Speaker
So I read that is, is like doing stuff with Mexico. Huh. Okay. That's true. Actually. That makes a lot of sense. But, but there is also a point where Clementine is thinking about how she came to be where she is, guess.
00:42:32
Speaker
And the bad guy, who took her and her sisters there's a comment about oh he kept her until she was old enough to sell kind of a thing and i was like first of all if you're selling people i'm not sure that your threshold is going to be children right but okay but that also implies that she's very young like 18 because that was like old enough to like 16 yeah probably really i mean but like old enough to be sold as a wife she 14 right yeah you know so like like clementine is real young and lou is old enough to have had and several years a lot of experience yes i didn't pick up on that or for some reason lou reads kind of young to me so i didn't
00:43:23
Speaker
Pick up on that. But now that you mentioned it, it does make a lot of sense that you would think that. So yeah, now I'm kind of stuck on that. i I was reading it kind of more like that there was like this insta-love thing on Clementine's part, which I thought was kind of hilarious and adorable, but also bewildering. And then with Lou, I was very confused about the propriety thing, which was cute, you know, but also I was like...
00:43:44
Speaker
I mean, yeah, we can't we have to have one of those bed boards in there. bundle board. A bundle board, because we wouldn't want any surprise babies coming out of this scenario. you know what I mean? Like, I was like, what's going to happen? Guys, like, just do it. What's the problem here? But...
00:43:58
Speaker
Like there's no sperms in this bed. yeah like I was kind of confused about like what i what consequences are we worried about social ostracism? Cause guys, I'm afraid that that's like, that she be should be sail this isn't even that like, yeah, no.
00:44:13
Speaker
So I was very, I didn't, it was cute, but yeah, I was very, I was kind of like, Lou, I, could you please explain what your hangup here is beyond just that it is proper because can't get pregnant. Yeah.
00:44:25
Speaker
No one in that town seems to really care if you guys get up to nonsense up here because they're already assuming you
Narrative Pacing and Structure
00:44:31
Speaker
probably are. Do you know what I mean? Like, it i thought it was more like Lou doing the pushing that Holly was saying. Yes. Like, i think holding on to propriety as the reason, but really just trying to avoid. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah. Which makes it cute. I mean, it does. I wouldn't bring that up because it bothered me. That actually didn't. I was just. No, I agree. I was the same. I was the same. I was like, what are you doing? Yes, exactly the same feelings. Like you, you could do all kinds of fun things.
00:45:01
Speaker
I know, right? You seem a little stressed. Why you relieve some tension, guys? Anyway. And Clementine's like, yes! Yes, would like that. Sounds great.
00:45:11
Speaker
I think, honestly, the story could have been a lot shorter. I don't think that there needed to be quite so much of a draw in that push-pull about them having a relationship. And I also don't even really see the point of the old romance that resurfaced. like There was a lot of just kind of... ah ripples for the sake of being ripples I didn't think it was 100% necessary it didn't bother me necessarily but I was just kind of like there's a lot like let's dial this in here a little bit you don't need this but yeah I don't know you're right you're right it took until 25%
00:45:45
Speaker
for the nefarious backstory to even come up yes so the the premise is like okay we end up with like this awkward sort of one bed it's one cabin situation that's a great start but then there's just like a lot of nothing until we get like oh hints of like lou has a dangerous backstory it's going to come haunt them and then a bunch of nothing happens for a little while longer as they continue playing house and then finally like some stuff starts happening but it's just like really drawn out in the beginning it's just so slow to start and
00:46:24
Speaker
Is it just like dev editing issues? And these are both indie and like, not that indie books can't go through a rigorous editing process, but there are different approaches to telling a story when you're not doing it through a big five publishing house that has a way of doing things. i guess And so there, maybe it's just, there's a lot of time spent on that part of the narrative as opposed to plot parts of the narrative.
00:46:54
Speaker
Like I said, it doesn't start like the nefarious activity. the The hint of like, ooh, what's going to be the plot of this story doesn't even crop up until 25%. I guess I saw that the start in Day Ain't Proper was a bit slow.
00:47:11
Speaker
I think it was just, I don't know why we needed to have so
Western Microtropes Representation
00:47:15
Speaker
much background. on the horse breaking part, for example, or, you know what I mean? Stuff like that. They're playing house. We're in a Western, right? and we got to spend some time breaking the horses because this is at least the third book with a horse breaking scene.
00:47:29
Speaker
Right. and right And there's like, because then we have the house building and the horse breaking going at the same time. and So it's house building and then horse breaking and then back to house building. And by the time they got back to house building, i was like, dude, take a break. Like we've got all about it.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah. So I get what you're saying, but I was kind of attributing it to just like them trying to do too much. Like if you had just done the house building or just done the horse breaking, that probably would have been sufficient. Right.
00:47:56
Speaker
That's what I thought made it slow. Not that they were like hammering their relationship. Like they serve different purposes narratively. Like the house building is kind of like, like we have to do it because the house building is kind of like the impetus for the clerical error at the beginning anyway.
00:48:10
Speaker
Right. Right. Right. And ah like a signal of like lose ostracism from the community, because if they were really part of the community, like everybody would come help them build their house together and blah, blah, blah. And the horse breaking is part of this push and pull. Right.
00:48:26
Speaker
It's a very romantic gesture. I care about you so much enough that I'm going to give you this horse, but also I give you this horse so you can go away from me. And like, you know, yeah, it's like they're doing different work. But yeah, i feel like a good dev edit would have just made this book really sing.
00:48:45
Speaker
i I hate these missed opportunities where there's you could have had you could have this is and I and I hate it when I do this, because I understand that this is like, not actually very helpful for anybody. But Imagine if it would have been like they open with the house building, the house building, then, you know, like they start settling in and then Clementine's getting too comfortable. So lu gets uncomfortable, right?
00:49:07
Speaker
Let's just take out the other woman thing yeah from this book altogether and say that instead of that, Lou starts breaking this horse so that Clementine can leave. You could have executed the same thing.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah. with some slight complications and you could have taken out that whole part of it and it would have been more streamlined. Yeah. So that's why I'm saying when it's like the house building and the horse breaking, like, yes, they serve different purposes, but the way that it was aligned, the way that it lined up, I think that it made, it naturally made the front slower and then there was yeah too much bunched together at the end. And I think it but just needed to get reworked a little bit. And so I think it was just, it needed to be switch or change owed.
00:49:49
Speaker
But you can't build the house too quickly know because then they aren't forced to share the cabin. Correct. I did like that there was a what like it's a one room cabin. Oh, that was fantastic.
00:50:01
Speaker
Very on brand. very war on brand yeah Very Western.
Microtropes Comparison
00:50:05
Speaker
Should we talk about microtropes? so i I love microtropes. I know. Since we're talking about on-brand for Westerns, like I feel like like this is not our first one-room cabin we've seen.
00:50:16
Speaker
i think this is why I was so mad about the 30-room house in the other book. I'm no! yeah The only other book i've read ah other Western I've read with this is Texas Glory, which is the second book in the Lorraine Heath like Texas Brothers series.
00:50:33
Speaker
Right. He's like got his whole castle thing going Right. Because the old because ah Dallas Dallas dallas and Dallas builds his castle thingy. But it's like a huge part of his character and his character trait is like his big oppressive house.
00:50:49
Speaker
ah And it's like important to the story, not just like, oh, of course. All right. Microtropes. Let's do it. Can we read them all off first? And then can we do that? oh yeah, we can revisit read them off. So they're fresh.
00:51:02
Speaker
Okay. So things we've talked about in the past. Sour breath. don't think we saw any of that. but know no No, but did Clementine's ah to be husband had like yeah tobacco stains and was disgusting.
00:51:16
Speaker
Okay. Like all over his face. So that's similar. I would slot it in the same overall category. Okay. uh dusty clothes and getting clean dusty clothes so so there were no dusty clothes in heart and hand yeah even though she wore like a white lace dress yeah oh my gosh her dress i okay okay sorry moving on we don't have to go back onto that but but clementine like clementine constantly is like don't you bring that dirt in yeah yeah Which was really charming, actually.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah. mean, there's a lot like, you know, Clementine is like doing the work, right? She's pulling pints and pouring shots at the tavern and then coming home and cooking and cleaning and... She's doing work.
00:52:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i guess both of them have this thing of like both of the heroines of like, that we've also seen in a lot of these other books of show that I will be a good wife, right?
00:52:12
Speaker
Yeah. is that a new micro trope we haven't well let's we gotta do that because i don't even remember we have so many now i'm having trouble with my so okay sorry okay so pies they ain't proper has it not rosemary hand has it not yeah rosemary makes pie yeah which was the heartbreaking part all right so we have one out of two next okay all right i mean is it dirt or is it tan I don't think so. Not in this. These.
00:52:36
Speaker
Did we? I don't think so. They were just tan. No. no No. It's more, but it's more just like they're just kind of dirty and dusty and have to get cleaned off a lot. Yeah. um Calloused hands.
00:52:48
Speaker
They ain't proper. Oh, yeah. Calloused hands and muscles. Do Forrest and Will have calloused hands? Please. They're pretty boys. Yeah. You're right. You're right. Yeah.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. ah Chores. Both. Yeah. but what But in
Setting Realism and Historical Accuracy
00:53:04
Speaker
very different ways. so Yeah. I felt like heart and hand, was just like lip service. She's like trying to make dinner.
00:53:12
Speaker
but And she talks about cleaning the house. But there's no, like I said, the guys never go out and like take care of the ranch in any way. Right. Even though they supposedly run this free.
00:53:23
Speaker
this ranch that's big enough to have a gazillion bedroom house look and then her not being able to do chores maybe is a component but like it's yeah it's i'm not saying it's done well i'm yeah it's interesting because i feel like right in silver lining like the i don't remember the character's name the woman who doesn't know how to do chores that's like an indication that she's not the right kind of bride yes and we have a woman who also doesn't know how to do chores but doesn't do them properly but she's like whatever we'll just pay for it because we're we're inexplicably wealthy yeah and built our house with our own hands yes anyway continue okay uh getting clean well i did they talk about it at all in heart and hand no i don't think they took a bath they didn't take a bath at all oh no she took a bath when she first got there oh yeah yeah you're right oh you're right she like the uh at the the inn yeah
00:54:17
Speaker
Okay. But yeah, it was not a thread of the of the story because we weren't getting like, is it dirt or is it tan? Right. Yeah. was They were in town. They weren't ever like out in the land. Yeah.
00:54:28
Speaker
So, but yes, it definitely, we've already mentioned it came up in. and yeah and they ain't proper okay coffee yes they uh yes they ain't proper they have it to sober up loo and they have a lot of coffee served uh in the tavern for breakfast and stuff but i don't remember any coffee in yeah except for the intimate breakfast like coffee is something that's like part of breakfast but not as like a separate thing It's not a no it wasn't coffee. There wasn't any discussion about how we need coffee, how we're going to brew coffee. It just shows up the same as it would have showed up the same as any other beverage in any other book. i feel Right.
00:55:07
Speaker
Yeah. Nope. So that one's a no. Okay. ah Baking bread. Neither. hmm. Mm hmm. bacon or in general meat consumption no she does she tries to roast a chicken and heart in heart and hand doesn't she oh yeah she's like i need some lemons to put in this chicken um i talking about oh that was so annoying she just goes out and gets to although i will say in the proper ah clementine gets eucalyptus for the bath and like peppermint tea just honey
00:55:39
Speaker
like I guess you can get peppermint tea at the mercantile or whatever, but, uh, I don't know. Depending on where they are and what their water situation is, you can grow peppermint out there. But like peppermint would be a lot easier. But then that but she just like ran down to the mercantile to get it for a while. Lou was sick.
00:55:57
Speaker
that' like ah guys um I feel like that would be something more that like to grow their own peppermint. Right. Which is like, yeah, that makes sense. Anyway, that was more of a like, okay.
00:56:08
Speaker
But yeah, the lemons, she's like, I just need these things. like, oh yeah, obviously that's going to be in rural Montana.
Concluding Thoughts and Future Themes
00:56:17
Speaker
Yeah. Like, okay. but There is a zero. There is no possible way you could even get, that would never happen.
00:56:25
Speaker
Never. ah Anyway. All right. carrie you so Okay. ah The bullet went through. yeah. digging out the bullet the bullet status yeah that's where they ain't proper nobody gets shot in a they in a heart and hand i know this is very disturbing lack of violence in this book
00:56:46
Speaker
um sweet grass no definitely not in heart and hand no and like they ain't proper they're it's more of a desert location so they're not they're not in like the northern northwest prairies right so not really okay cooking over a fire Not in Heart and Hand.
00:57:04
Speaker
Okay. Trains as like an entry to adventure or the train only goes so far. So there's some light train act train in Heart and Hand, but it's kind of, they don't even.
00:57:16
Speaker
Yeah. It's not like done the same way, right? not really does why does it take a month i mean she does get to where she in butte or even not even to butte like she gets so far so there is that where she can't go any farther and then they're late to pick her up yeah and i don't there wasn't really any there wasn't any train action at all because i think they were too remote in the other one and they ain't probably yeah ah yeah i don't think there was a train there yeah that's how you have a western justice town yeah right yeah it's not on the train line too far right too far okay um dress person purchasing or a dress that doesn't fit her well and so they ain't proper and she definitely like it's not dress purchasing but she has her like hand me down ugly dress and they're and the prostitutes are like no you need a you need a tavern win you need a fit in dress yeah yeah except it does fit her well so it's kind of the opposite yeah Yeah.
00:58:13
Speaker
She felt so awkward and out of place wearing her like normal clothes. Yeah. I need some spanky. Come on. That was fun. I know. it was like that was a good That was a good turn on a microtrope, I would say. Yeah, for sure.
00:58:28
Speaker
All right. okay Huddle together to preserve our body warmth. Well, that's yes. In um heart and hand, when she walks home in the rain, they it warms her up that way.
00:58:40
Speaker
Well, technically, I mean, that was the i mean, just because again, just because do it badly doesn't mean it wasn't there. And then in They Ain't Proper... No, I don't think that they It's just the bundle board situation. It's like, oh, we're not going to do this ridiculous thing where you're in the barn and I'm in the bed anymore. Just like, we can just... It's fine. Yeah.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Okay. but but Let's see. ah So like, the creepy crawly is going to get you like scorpions, like snakes, that kind of stuff. I don't think we saw any of that here. Neither of them.
00:59:15
Speaker
No. Okay. Emergency rescue. ah Well, I mean, Lou gets hanged. Yeah, Lou gets hanged. would call that a pretty emergency rescue.
00:59:27
Speaker
say. But that's not nature rescue. I feel like this is intended to be like the critters are going to get you. Oh, no. Emergency rescue was separate from the critters. Yeah, that's a separate one.
00:59:37
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. yeah so yeah Sometimes related and sometimes not. yeah no It says suck out the venom in our list. I feel like the emergency rescue. Okay. So what are we thinking? Like the trial? Or like just like getting swept away by the river.
00:59:52
Speaker
I guess that's That's forces of nature. but Erin, like you said, the trial or like getting busted out of jail or whatever, I think that would be an emergency rescue. Yeah. You know what i mean? Okay. I'll allow it. All right. Yeah. But but although k Clem doesn't rescue Lou, like Clem kind of like make tries and makes the situation a lot worse in the hanging scene. That's because she's being a little, a little dumb, but anyway, carrying on, carrying on.
01:00:16
Speaker
We won't litigate that right now. Yeah. Okay. ah Women as a civilizing force. Well, I think there's some undertones in a heart in hand because she's a proper society lady and she's able to navigate these,
01:00:31
Speaker
petty bitches in the West being petty. But it's not the men. It's also like apologizing for swearing.
01:00:42
Speaker
now you're right. Or in like the Morgan McBride book, how it's like, we need this woman to like have a nice home. Yeah. All right. I like agree. There is that in heart and hand because they don't even ask for her until they need it a wife to go in there. Like this is the placeholder. They need a wife in their house to like make the home and make babies.
01:01:03
Speaker
Yeah. That's like the entire premise. There's like it definitely has a different vibe. There's an edge. What we have discussed and before. Again, it just because it does. anyway yeah okay and and then they ain't proper it's lou who's the civilist lou is the one who's like that ain't proper don't do that clementine so i don't know i have to say not in that one or if yeah well it's kind of like it's a reversal of it vernon yeah yeah anyway that's why see i feel like there's so much potential with queer with the like with queer westerns to like play especially with these like the gender tropes of
01:01:38
Speaker
like hetero western romances oh yes missed opportunities here okay and then wooing the woman after they're already attached i feel like that's like all lou does is that's all yeah that's like i'm gonna agree with you but just kidding yeah here's some flowers just kidding yep yep and then I think there's a distinct lack of that in heart and hand where is the where's the wooing but yeah she needed some wooing I was expecting better than that yeah anyway oh shoot and I just had one in my head Forrest takes her shopping yeah well i agree yeah we all know how I feel about shopping scenes as wooing moments bitches be shopping and it is not good not good all right we got do we have any more
01:02:25
Speaker
No, that's all we had. Okay. So i had I had one in my head right when we started this and then I, it went out my colander brain because I didn't take my meds today.
01:02:36
Speaker
Well, somebody else offers them because I definitely had, I definitely don't know. I feel like it's pretty exhausting. I feel like this covers a lot. Maybe like the prostitute with the heart of gold as an archetype.
01:02:48
Speaker
i ah I was just going to say, oops, I slept at the brothel. Or, oops, I slept with a tavern wench. like But I think yours is better. But not a heart of gold because it's not just that. There's something about, because even in the ones where they don't have a heart of gold, there are scenes where they sleep at the brothel. Or there's an illusion that they did sleep at the brothel. Or, know what I mean? Yeah.
01:03:07
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Oops, I slept at the brothel. Yeah, think you're right.
01:03:14
Speaker
i i think I remembered it. Clean apron. She puts on a clean apron. apron I mean, but this like ties in like oh all a lot of these microtropes are about dirt and keeping dirt away and doing chores and cleaning and cooking. Save that for the next one for the next podcast. One that Holly mentioned that is not yet on our list is horse breaking. Oh, horse breaking. Yes, you're right.
01:03:40
Speaker
And oh, I got it. I remembered another one. I built that house myself. yeah
01:03:48
Speaker
Right. Because I think even Forrest and Will and their giant mansion, they're like, we built it for you. Oh, look at that house. I built it for you. You built that six bedroom monstrosity by yourself. I'm going to go ahead and say no on that one.
01:04:01
Speaker
Right. but But like going back to the Lorraine Heath, Texas Destiny in Houston, you know, it's like he has his house that he built himself. Yeah, and it's one room or whatever, but that's fine.
01:04:13
Speaker
um I'll sleep in the barn. and Or barn sleeping. Although, is that unique to this? Because I feel like it's I'll sleep in the barn comes up in a lot of romance. What about... romance I sleep with the horse, with the horses.
01:04:28
Speaker
Well, okay. That's fair. I mean, it's still sleeping the barn. I feel like they always offer to sleep in the barn, but but it's like it's like road trip regencies. They're like, I'll sleep in the stables, but then they never actually do.
01:04:40
Speaker
But that's why I change it to sleep with the horse, because sometimes there's no barn in the Westerns, but they sleep with their horse. You know what I mean? like they they they Their horse is their best friend, so they sleep with the horse. But you could so also just change it horse bestie.
01:04:53
Speaker
Yeah. and that might be more fitting for this because I don't I mean in that some regency sure but there's other some of these micro trips are in other sub genres anyway oh like I will never forget when what's her face killed what's his face's horse oh yeah kingdom of dreams and kingdom of dreams oh my How dare she?
01:05:15
Speaker
ah Anyway. Oh, that book. Lordy. Anyway. ah But yes, the horse best. I think in the Western, the horse bestie is more of a thing. Like in in a historical your romance medieval Regency, it's more of like a we've been through some things. Like, okay, if it's Regency, like we were through, we' got through Waterloo together, but it's not like they're like playing checkers. right there Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:41
Speaker
or yeah to scrap yeah it's like Or that they even like really take care of it themselves. Right. They have their horses stable. It's just their trusty steed. It's not like they're... All right. Well, I'm stoked about our microtopes list. This is my new favorite activity. It's going to be a whole new hobby. We should just start a whole new podcast just talking about microtopes.
01:05:58
Speaker
Like, let's go down the Regency rabbit hole. I'm ready. Are you saying that you'd like to do another bracket? Because, okay. Because we're going to pirates next. Okay. Pirates, pirates. I think pirates could be pretty fun.
01:06:12
Speaker
Okay. So any other microtropes to add to our list? I feel like this is a pretty exhaustive list. like, what happens? What happens in a Western? We wrote it down. and We wrote it down. What happens in a Western?
01:06:26
Speaker
Okay, so that was our showdown conversation for our last two books. Maybe in the show notes, I'll put some ah links for recommendations for queer Westerns that I thought were better than these.
01:06:38
Speaker
um Maybe. Anyway, so and next time we'll have a shorter than this conversation about just kind of our general thoughts on how our hoedown showdown went and Western romances.
01:06:51
Speaker
et cetera. For show notes, please go to smutreport.com slash podcast. And until then, keep it smutty folks.