Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Criminal Archetype
73 Plays14 days ago
The Smut Report Team is back, and this month we're talking about the criminal archetype in romance books. What characteristics does a criminal love interest have—and what makes them so dang sexy?
For our conversation, we read Hard Time by Cara McKenna.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Come on. Yes. You know I'm not lying. The sexiest kind of smooshing. Yes. All right. Na na na na Smut Report! Hello and welcome to the Smut Report podcast.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm Ingrid. I'm Holly. And I'm Erin.
Exploration of Criminal Archetypes
00:00:17
Speaker
And today we're here to talk about, it's kind of a let's talk tropes feature, but we're kind of branching out for funsies and we're talking archetypes today. And have decided to dig into a really fun and juicy archetype.
00:00:29
Speaker
Everyone's so excited. It's all our favorite must read, right? We all read this all the time? No, quite. watch We're talking criminals today.
00:00:40
Speaker
Woohoo! Yeah, i definitely, definitely just read criminals like 100% of the time. All the time. Especially this kind of criminal. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. i the reason I think it's so funny is because I feel like all of us are at our core kind of rule followers.
00:00:56
Speaker
So that's why I think this is so funny for us to pick this apart. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. is So, okay, because I definitely, in some ways, I'm a rule follower, right? Like, cat in the hat, I am team fish.
00:01:10
Speaker
every once in a while, I'll do something, I'm like, wait a minute, maybe I'm secretly a chaos gremlin, and I'm just suppressing
Symbolism of Chaos through Eggs
00:01:18
Speaker
it. And it's things like the way I take the eggs out of the egg carton, right? There's like the pictures of how different people do it, and I look at it, and I'm like, oh, I'm that one that's like, obviously the most chaotic.
00:01:31
Speaker
Like, I start on the left, and go from left to right, so the carton is completely unbalanced, it's just like, What am I even doing? Wait, is that not how people do the eggs? Well, I have a clear container that I empty my eggs into. And every time I add more eggs, I move them all to the front so that the oldest can be used first. and my husband yeah And my husband laughed at me because when I got this clear egg holding container,
00:01:56
Speaker
He like looked at me and I said, isn't this nice? And he said, yes, I'm so glad that you found that solution for eggs because it's not like they come in any kind of organized fashion or anything. It gave me a whole bunch of grief about it.
00:02:08
Speaker
But let me tell you, I always know the freshest eggs are being used in their time. So...
Appeal and Consequences of Criminal Books
00:02:14
Speaker
So needless to say, yes, I'm a rule follower. Yeah. Well, no. And so my and my husband takes them out in like a diagonal grid form.
00:02:23
Speaker
they're balanced. That would never occur to me. I know. just like, what are you doing? This is so weird. It's not acceptable. I obviously need a very unbalanced container. And it seems like his method is chaotic, but actually it's like the most type A logical way you could actually, you could do it. You know, yeah, if I were going to take someone else's eggs out of the fridge, I would definitely prefer to grab his carton, obviously. Right. So it doesn't accidentally fall when you grab the side that doesn't have any eggs in it. Exactly. Because have I grabbed the egg carton and had them topple? Yes, I have.
00:02:55
Speaker
I will admit that freely. Yeah. I mean, so have I, but I would not change the way that I do it in any way. Right. I know. Because by golly, that's how we do things. Yeah.
00:03:06
Speaker
Anyway. But we're being rebels today. But I think that's interesting, Holly, talking about this rule follower situation that Ingrid brought up because rule follower Goldfish slash my older child not being able to watch National Treasure because they're going to get in trouble because they're stealing the data.
00:03:25
Speaker
Declaration of Independence, he can't deal with it. Versus like, you're not allowed to bring alcohol to the state park, but you know, we're going to be responsible and just have a couple beers with dinner. So it's like, that's fine.
00:03:38
Speaker
You know, like, feel like there are things that we do that are like, No, there the consequences for this are socially unacceptable versus the consequence for this is like minor socially acceptable.
00:03:52
Speaker
I feel I wonder if that's going we didn't even just we're going to talk about the different kinds of criminals, because when we were talking about what book to read, we ran into a little bit of a pickle.
Literary Criminal Types and Heists
00:04:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah. being Like, hold on.
00:04:03
Speaker
What kind of criminal are we reading? but So we'll get to there. But I wonder if this is tying into some of the perceptions of which criminal books are good, okay, fun versus which ones are like, yikes. I don't know.
00:04:16
Speaker
don't know. I'm so excited. I mean, because when I thought criminal, my first thought was like jewel heist. But then when Aaron, I think your first thought was like motorcycle gang murdery criminal.
00:04:28
Speaker
criminal. Yeah. So I've read a few different ones. So let's talk about what are the different kinds of criminal archetypes? Because apparently there's more than one. Yeah. So we were like, wait a minute.
00:04:40
Speaker
Are we talking like the jewel heist or are we talking like the motorcycle? I did my motorcycle Mondays thing and that was like a whole journey. I think also looking at this, there's the whole dark romance component. We were not going dark romance, right? Like there's the dark romance aspect in that. you know motorcycle club stuff can tie into that but there's also this like i'm falling in love with my stalker or whatever yikes kinds of books that are you know popular in certain circles right now which is fine but that's a different flavor too than like an ex-con right or a you know i've read some too there's a series that i'm reading for funsies right now that's like this guy fell in love with an unhinged assassin because like why wouldn't you do that It's just like, but it's not, they're told in a way that it's not real. So that's a different vibe too. that It's like the heist vibe, the playful vibe, as opposed to like the gritty ex-con or the gritty motorcycle club guys or right stuff like that. i don't know. What else are you?
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah. because So let's like back up and like, here we go. Rule follower in me is like, let's make an organized list, guys. Yeah. ok but Okay, so like one is the first thing Ingrid said was like jewel heists.
00:05:54
Speaker
You know, so these are like the heists and I feel like cons. got your Ocean's Eleven. The Ocean's Eleven stuff, that like the con men. Italian The Italian job. They're so clever. that's a It's cerebral criminal. And I think what we like it is because we want to see if they can get away with it.
00:06:13
Speaker
That's the point, right? Right. And I feel like at least in February, fiction heists and con jobs are always justified also yes right like I'm doing a heist or a con against a crooked
Organized Crime Narratives
00:06:28
Speaker
corporation I'm stealing some corporate secrets that like shouldn't be kept secret it's a Robin Hood type it's a Robin Hood even if they're keeping the money even if they're keeping right like I read ones like I'm stealing from space Elon Musk Because he deserves it.
00:06:44
Speaker
And he's a bad person. And he's doing bad things. And so I'm justified in stealing from him. And in fact, I'm doing good in the world by stealing from him.
00:06:55
Speaker
Right? Yes. That's How to Steal a Galaxy by Beth Reedus, by the way. If anybody's interested. She goes to the Space Met Gala to, like, steal some stuff from Space Elon Musk.
00:07:08
Speaker
It's pretty fun. But yeah, they're like Robin Hood, they're justified, and they're fun. And i and think it was Ingrid, right? You just said it they're cerebral. yes and like Trixie so that's one kind and then there's the mafia and motorcycle club criminals which I feel like are maybe ah like they have their own things going on in them but I feel like they're kind of similar would you agree with that Erin I feel like you've read the most mean I think they have different vibes but they are it's organized crime yeah that's what I was just gonna say
00:07:40
Speaker
There aren't as many of them, but gang books would fall in here too. Maybe more aligned with motorcycle club types books. Yeah, and it's the organized crime. Those are interesting when you have the differentiation between somebody who's in it and somebody who's in charge of it right?
00:08:00
Speaker
There's a difference in I'm boss, right? of the mafia family and it's almost like glitzy billionai ceo type of romance power romance versus i'm you know a minion i'm the enforcer i the guy who breaks the knees yeah yeah But not even that it could be sometimes I've read to some that are like, well, I grew up in this and I made some bad decisions as like a 14 year old runner. And now if I try to get out, there's no life for you. Yeah, there could be a problem, you know, so there are different levels within that. But I think the organized crime falls under the that's like sexy. Yeah.
00:08:43
Speaker
Like you might get the gritty, the grittiness aspect of it in the stories about the people who were brought into it when they were teenagers. But even then, by the time they're adults, oftentimes not in the gang romance that I read, which was with a Mia Hopkins.
00:08:59
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. Book trashed, maybe ah slightly different narrative. But, you know, in the MC club, like the ones Holly was mentioning where it's the enforcer, it's like the sexy power.
00:09:10
Speaker
who situation. The I'm bad and that's good. ah right Kind of a I'm bad enough that I can take care of you no matter what. um yes Well, it's that and it's also in and out.
00:09:24
Speaker
It's not just the person. Usually in these situations, it's that when the When you fall in love with the guy, you get the protection of all the guy's friends. Everybody. It's that family. Because oftentimes I think there's that push-pull where it's like part of the attraction is the power of the guy in question, usually guy
Character Motivations and Romantic Elements
00:09:42
Speaker
in question.
00:09:42
Speaker
But part of it is also that you don't just get him. You get everyone else who die for you. yeah so it's kind of like in the fold as long as you behave appropriately for your position yep that's the at least that's the thing about the motorcycle club being somebody's old lady right like you also represent the club as being good enough to be perfect like well-behaved old lady enough that's how like mafia wives work too right it's right yeah that you're willing to lie for your part yeah Yeah, but I feel like in those, the focus is on more on the criminal group, but like not so much on the actual crimes right we're doing. We'll kind gloss that over. Yes, I find that so interesting because I read these mafia romance or I did the motorcycle. It's been a while since I read a motorcycle club romance, but it's always been interesting to me when they're like just a throwaway line of like, yeah, we run guns.
00:10:41
Speaker
It's like, oh, yikes. We're in charge of all of the illegal drug. Like there was this one mafia romance that I read. It's going to be a trilogy. The third book hasn't been published yet. And I haven't finished the second book yet. Oops.
00:10:54
Speaker
But they're controlling all the drug trade in Montreal h and, you know, breaking people's knees because they're trying to get around it or whatever. And it's just like, just like a little line here or there. But like, that's not the central component of the story. You're like, that's, that's kind of messed up.
Solo Criminals: Vigilantes and Assassins
00:11:14
Speaker
It's like, yeah, we just run guns. It's no big deal. It's like, uh, yeah, we just not a big deal. We just just like run an extortion racket. But they never use those words. They're like, no we keep Hell's Kitchen safe. Oh, yeah. Are you Daredevil?
00:11:30
Speaker
No. No, you run an extortion racket. Well, I think that brings us to another interesting type of criminal, which we probably wouldn't even touch on, but would be the vigilante. Yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. can kind of get lumped in with the, like, secret assassin, because oftentimes the assassins will be like, but I only assassinate really bad people. here
00:11:54
Speaker
On behalf of good people? like On behalf of i feel like it? Yeah. Or they're like, i just I just take this upon myself as like, how you paid? Yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
So this is like, that would be like solo crime. Oh, Lone Wolf. Lone Wolf. This is Lone Wolf. Yeah. Okay. Like the vigilantes, assassins would be in there. Hitmen go under organized crime, I would say.
00:12:21
Speaker
Like if they have a boss. ah If they have a boss. Yeah, but okay, so here's the question. If we're talking historical, so what about highwaymen? feel like highwaymen are vigilantes?
00:12:32
Speaker
Or they just kind Vigilantes. Or is this another thing where it's just like, I'm a criminal by circumstance, because that's what I need to do to feed my family? Well, that's the fourth category then. Right. Well, that's my question. Criminal bias. Yeah.
00:12:44
Speaker
And I feel like this is, you mostly see this in historicals. Yeah. We can say petty crime, but like highwaymen, smugglers, like maybe some pirate stuff. I don't know if we would count pirates as criminals or like how they would fit. into I feel like that could almost be considered mafia.
00:13:02
Speaker
but It's like a historical version of that because they become a family on that ship. This is why. so what I'm doing when we're looking at this, right? Because I'm sorry, writer, writer brain, right? I'm looking to see what does the person who falls in love with the criminal, what are they getting out of it? Right. So like if it's a jewel heist, it's because, oh my gosh, the a ability is the way this person thinks, right? if its my idea i feel like the heist, they're usually both doing the heist. Or or they are or theyre one of them is like the target of the heist. And then things get complicated.
00:13:32
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I read a great con book like that. was like, this is amazing. But I feel like the attraction to the ability is almost always called out. right Then you've got the Mafia MC Club, which is the organized. And then I feel like that and that one really is the power of the individual, the protection of the pack, that type of thing. Which is why I think the pirate one kind of comes into that one.
00:13:52
Speaker
Right. I know it seems because it doesn't have the same dark vibe. It's more of like a fun, ridiculous vibe, but it's still that's the draw. Right. You get the protection of this whole crew of pirate people.
00:14:03
Speaker
Right. Right. You get adopted by the ship. Exactly. Vigilante's secret assassin is, can I be the only person you want to hang out with? Because they run around solo all the time. and so it's kind of like you picked me.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. That is a bunch more of a vibe in that type of story. Yeah, and I feel like that's also like kind of what the Highwaymen has going for him. Yes. But Highwaymen is because sometimes they run in and a little crew.
00:14:28
Speaker
That's true. And yeah. And sometimes
Ex-Convicts and Redemption Journeys
00:14:31
Speaker
the Highwaymen are like doing some like Robin Hood stuff. And sometimes it's just like circumstantial. Like I'm poor and I got to get through this. And I've read some that felt like a jewel heist because they were purposely trying. So like that's one of the ones that tends to have a lot of legs. You know what i mean?
00:14:46
Speaker
But it could also be we could say, well, Highwaymen is really just like Regency Thief. Right. And if you have a contemporary. But think even with some of those petty criminal ones, and I'm thinking of also historical, I read the prequel of the Lily White Boys, I think, by KJ Charles.
00:15:02
Speaker
And they're like a little crime gang. And this particular character was like a forger for them or something in this in the prequel. But Or a fence for them.
00:15:14
Speaker
But like, you know, they had some vigilante stuff going on. They took justice into their own hands in the in the, you know, climactic moment. And they had a little crew. And I can see going forward that like, it could cover a lot of bases there.
00:15:32
Speaker
So I think it's a little bit how the author tries to or how the author crafts the backstory as well, or the environment of the story, the world building that goes into it. is like The more characters and additional world building...
00:15:48
Speaker
story that gets included the more likely you are to have some of those elements of like the found family as opposed to the lone wolf situation I feel like it's really easy to have it be a lone wolf thing so you can just dive right into the you're the only one who sees me right yeah right yeah well that's like a different kind of romance than the found family romance um but it's interesting that they're both showing up in these criminal stories and i would i do want to add another one to our types is like the ex-con or like the person who is trying to get out of whatever life of crime they're doing or and like has a shady past but is trying to make good it's like the bad boy reformed right and that's definitely what this book is right that we we that we buddy read yes yes i think those are really interesting yeah
00:16:40
Speaker
This is not the first one I've read. Have you guys read one like this before? What, like a bad boy? I haven't. Like he is legitimately incarcerated. No, I haven't. When the romance starts. I've not read one. We're talking about Hard Time by Kara McKenna, by the way.
00:16:56
Speaker
but So I have read ones where it's like, I'm a con man, but I don't want to be a con man anymore. And I'm going to go straight for you. Like I've read a couple of those. but so that's a morality chain.
00:17:08
Speaker
which is Which is more of a morality chain. Yeah. Interesting. Or I want to go straight and like me being in this relationship is like a good push. It's a like kind of morality chain adjacent.
00:17:18
Speaker
So I've read like a couple of those, but this is the first one I've read where it starts with the criminal in prison. I think these are so interesting.
00:17:30
Speaker
So let's talk about this book. Okay, but no, that's a lie because I have read
Analysis of 'Hard Time' by Kara McKenna
00:17:34
Speaker
couple historicals where it starts with him in prison, but it's you but then it's see she's like, I need a husband for convenience reasons to protect myself from my lecherous uncle. So please allow me to marry some but like a convict who's about to be shipped off.
00:17:49
Speaker
I remember your review for that one where it was like, oops, he got out.
00:17:57
Speaker
but i feel like most of those are he's wrongly imprisoned right i feel like so i want to and there's like a or or like this let's talk about this book because i think this exemplifies this particular storytelling uh but is interesting and socially as well oh so as holly said we have read hard time by kara mckenna for this conversation because we decided that we would read a criminal criminal Right. Not like... For this. ah not Not a cute criminal. cute fun criminal.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah. And not not something too dark. So that like kind of cut off most of the like mafia. I think we didn't want to do organized crime and we didn't want to do cutesy criminals. So that left us kind of like an a narrower window.
00:18:43
Speaker
So criminal criminals. Should we do our one sentence summaries? of done Okay. Yes. Who's going to go first? Ingrid go first. Oh, lordy. Okay. All right. So, okay.
00:18:54
Speaker
So domestic abuse survivor, what's her name again? Annie. Annie. Annie, are you okay? Annie, are you okay? We don't know. We don't know. Anyway, domestic domestic abuse survivor Annie gets a job in the Michigan as a librarian in a prison and insta-loves an incarcerated man there.
00:19:18
Speaker
Eric. Eric. Like the Little Mermaid's boyfriend. Yeah. Exchanges porny letters. And then surprise, he's out in relationship. That's what I got. okay Okay.
00:19:31
Speaker
Okay. librarian does some real stupid like job endangering ah letter exchanges with inmate. Mm-hmm.
00:19:44
Speaker
And then he gets out and they do relationship, but have the same fight about 500 times because he says if somebody hurts her, he would assault them.
00:20:00
Speaker
And she's like, I would rather you not do that romance hero wrote thing. I would rather you ah stay with me instead of going back to prison. Like, let's not actually burn down the world because who hurt me?
00:20:13
Speaker
Thanks. That's my summary of the book. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. My summary.
00:20:22
Speaker
My summary is, what is it? So sweet little mouse of a librarian. scares herself silly working in a prison, but almost immediately...
00:20:39
Speaker
begins to live out a naughty fantasy by exchanging illicit letters with an inmate, believing that nothing could come of it, only to bear some real-life consequences when he is released and something does come of it.
00:20:57
Speaker
And he is dealing with some real toxic masculinity stuff and needs to address that, but is also almost too willing to just, like, be used by her.
00:21:09
Speaker
to live out these fantasies. Yeah. Yeah. Their relationship was a lot. i mean, this was a really interesting book. Okay. So I will say, so, you know, I texted you guys how I was having feelings. Yes. Tell us what you wanted to talk about. Okay. Because it was the scene where, you know, it's her first day at the prison and she's running the like general resources time, right? Where she's just there as a resource to like help guys fill out paperwork and
00:21:40
Speaker
or read like explain things with literacy with literacy that they can't understand or like write letters for people and or lead up she leads a book discussion right hour yeah I mean she does all this stuff but like general resources hour she just kind of sits there and people come to her with questions And so Eric has ah dysgraphia.
00:22:02
Speaker
So he he has trouble writing. And he, you know, talks to her about that. And then at the end, he's like, maybe it's her second time at the prison, but he's like, can you write a letter for me?
00:22:14
Speaker
And she's like, Oh, yeah, you have dysgraphia, of course, I'll write a letter for you. um and he's like well it's kind of personal and she's like well that that's fine it's my job and so he dictates this letter to her that ah becomes clear is to her and is all about how sexy he finds her and ah like I read this scene and I'm like I am having so many feelings right now like what is happening everything about this is so uncomfortable and inappropriate but also really hot and I don't
00:22:47
Speaker
understand what I'm feeling right now.
00:22:53
Speaker
I think that was exactly how you were supposed to feel. yeah I didn't feel that. I think that's interesting that you felt all those mixed feelings. so Like I said, I think that you were supposed to feel all those things. For me, I think my book brain could just be like, okay, this is the road we're going down and I'm not in the, I'm not her. So I'm it doesn't have to be relatable to me necessarily, but I would not be able to be in that position ah that. You know what I mean? Like that would immediately be too much too soon where she has this like Insta attraction, ooh, lightning across the room. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, it's like that would never, if if i would never happen for me. So it would just squick me out. Yeah. Like if I were Annie, I would be like, wow, this is extremely inappropriate and uncomfortable.
00:23:36
Speaker
But like, but like reading about it, I was just like, like what is happening but yeah I'll be honest I it was i felt kind of like Holly where I was like my because i mean wow But also, woman, you're going get caught.
00:23:55
Speaker
And I think that was like the plot point that surprised me was that I was I spent a lot of time just being like, going to get caught. And then I was like, oh, her parents going hate him. So a lot of the stuff that I was expecting to happen, it just didn't.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, didn't. Yeah, there was plenty of tension to keep you going to be like, oh God. Oh, God. ah Yeah. But then well like, spoiler, they don't get caught. The letters like don't get them in trouble ever.
00:24:21
Speaker
and And what I thought was interesting, too, was it shifted kind of rapidly into... from situational tension to like interpersonal tension because the question was she was very aware that he was fulfilling kind of almost like a therapeutic role for her. right you know Because of the abuse, she'd shut down.
00:24:41
Speaker
he she was she but She basically said, like I'm using you. you know what I mean? And he was like, that's OK. And I think that he was worried that she would think that he was using her.
00:24:52
Speaker
Right? I thought it was interesting that their intimacy was developed almost exclusively through their sexual encounters because it took a really long time for them to even share like, this is my family. This is where I grew up.
00:25:11
Speaker
This is what I like to do in my spare time. You know, like they were well into it before they even started seeing if they were like, if they like had shared values. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well But that's the thing is like they have a fundamental difference in a very key shared value shared value that then is like the crux of the conflict in the entire second half of the book.
00:25:33
Speaker
Right. ah Is like what are you willing to do to avenge somebody you care about? And what's so and what's not only that, but what's our responsibility who for that? Because I think that was, that's the problem. It's not even like, cause she, you know, she even says like if she would feel good if she had felt comfortable telling her dad, what she'd been through. And if he'd like gone and,
00:25:56
Speaker
beat up her ex for abusing her, like that would have felt good to her, you know? So that wasn't the problem. The problem was it wasn't what you would do. It's what are you response? Cause because she feels that it's not his, like that it, he should be relieved of any sense of responsibility for putting his life on the line, you know, to protect someone who seemingly doesn't really want to protect themselves. Yeah.
00:26:20
Speaker
Right. So but let me talk. Hold on. Let's can talk about what happened. Yeah. yeah OK. So in this book, Eric is incarcerated because he assaulted a man who did something heinous to his sister.
00:26:37
Speaker
His sister refuses to talk about it and he won't talk about it because it's her business. So like she told him and the judge during his trial, but she won't talk about it to anyone else. Right. Right. And she so refused to press charges.
00:26:52
Speaker
It didn't like her arm was broken. So if it was a sexual assault, it was a sexual assault with other assault also happening. Right. So she was something terrible happened to her that we're never fully clear on the details of.
00:27:07
Speaker
But we have ah good idea. And because she didn't want to report it to the police, Eric took the punishment seriously. into his own hands and he said during his trial he later admits this that he would have killed him if he hadn't been stopped and he says he doesn't really explain and this is why holly says during the second half of the book the first half of the book is them you know kind of exchanging these like sexy naughty letters with each other while he's incarcerated so she can kind of live out these fantasies in a in what she feels is a safe way and then when it comes to the point she's like oh maybe that wasn't so safe but this is where she's processing some of her trauma but they're very explicit letters very explicit and right off the bat too it doesn't warm up yeah yeah and then once he's out
00:28:01
Speaker
They start having a conversation. Well, actually, before he even gets out, it's like their last conversation before. he's released she finagles a way to talk to him and say okay i need to know what you actually did and or do you regret it and he's like no i don't regret it like i would do it again yeah and that's where the crux of the problem comes in also in that she wants him to feel bad about what he did and that his incarceration was his punishment that would set him on a right path
00:28:31
Speaker
Right.
Core Conflicts and Character Development
00:28:32
Speaker
That it was a rehabilitation. Yes, exactly. And he does not... He feels like he's a different person than he was when he went in and he's not as hot-headed.
00:28:42
Speaker
and not he would there's i was like, this is funny because she just refused to see a lot of gray in those early conversations where he's like, well, I'm not a particularly violent or hot-headed man. And she's like, you were incarcerated for assault and you don't regret it. And I'm like...
00:29:00
Speaker
girl, do you not understand like situational awareness or like what? Yeah. You know, like she wasn't really asking a lot of questions. I was like, I'm struggling with what's happening right now.
00:29:12
Speaker
You know, so he's like, well, I'm a different person. I process my feelings a little bit differently. But at the core, he does not regret his choices. Yeah. Right. And she still thinks and I think it's not until we get much closer to the end where they're dealing with the problem kind of comes to a head at the end. Yeah, well, but I feel like and like a turning point for her.
00:29:35
Speaker
And one of you mentioned this already is she thinks about her ex boyfriend who beat her up, basically. she When she broke up with him, she never told her father what happened.
00:29:51
Speaker
and And she's having this process of, I didn't tell my dad because I can't say that he wouldn't have done the same thing. Right? And her dad her dad is a cop.
00:30:02
Speaker
so yeah you So she, like, there's no interrogation of, like, good cop, bad cop stuff going on. It's just like her dad is a cop. Therefore, he is like a good law abiding person. But you know, she's- But even he might have- But even he might have taken things into his own hands.
00:30:19
Speaker
And so she chose not to put that on her father as a way of protecting him. And I think and so I think a part of the conflict is she also then like has this beef with his sister, because she's like, I chose to protect the man in my life from this behavior. And why can't your sister do the same? Why is your sister expecting you?
00:30:43
Speaker
to do this. Yeah. So this is this is something that I found actually really interesting because I was struck by, I think there were a lot of subtle juxtapositions in here. And one of them, I think you you hit it where it was how they but both, and we don't know what happened to the sister, but we can assume, I mean, obviously there's enough evidence to know that there was a physical assault, which is what happened to Annie.
00:31:03
Speaker
Right. It seems like maybe one was a little bit more intense than the other, but that's just suggested we don't have any evidence beyond the broken arm. But yes, so Annie said, well, you know i I didn't report it or I didn't tell my dad to keep to protect my dad.
00:31:16
Speaker
And the sister didn't report it for other reasons, but did tell the brother. Right. But at one point she even says like, well, why didn't she if she was so scared why didn't she report and get a restraining order to protect you you know what I mean and I can't remember I think that it was I think she did take a second and was like oh well I guess I didn't report it to but I can't remember exactly if that happened or not uh you know I don't think she did which now that I'm thinking about it is interesting because like you know I'm thinking like well of course the sister didn't report it like they're they use the term white trash like they're like a white trash family
00:31:50
Speaker
in a really depressed rural town. Would the cops be on her side? i don't know. but her arm was broken, right? People don't report sexual assaults all the time and don't report intimate partner violence all the time. But like this was somebody who was not her intimate partner who broke her arm.
00:32:11
Speaker
And I'm like, you didn't report it. But then again, Annie's boyfriend ruptured her eardrum, right? Mm-hmm. And that's also something that, like, how did she explain that? when like Did she go to the hospital for that?
00:32:24
Speaker
That's also something that you'd be like, maybe. i think it's safe to assume that, obviously, it's very personal for different people. But I think a lot of people who are in that situation, um i i mean, statistically speaking, most of them don't report it. That's true. yeah And I think when you're under the gun like that and you're not ready to deal with it, you're trying to protect yourself and the life that you've led and, like, your peace, you can come people come up with all kinds of ways to not report that. Right.
00:32:48
Speaker
That made a lot of sense to me. Actually, it didn't even bother me at all. I thought it was more interesting that she and the sister were from such different areas. She's the daughter of a cop. The sister is but has been through, heaven knows, so much trauma. But they both, I mean, both of them made very similar choices, just with very different. They were still trying to protect themselves and...
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, their piece in the best way that they could. Because really, i mean, if if we get down to it, she thinks that she was protecting her dad, but she was also on some level, she didn't want to feel that feeling of putting her dad in that position. So she was also kind of protecting Well, she also specifically says that she didn't want to be seen as the victim. Like, she didn't want to... And you hear this a lot also.
00:33:32
Speaker
Didn't want to be embarrassed about the fact that she stayed in that position for so as long as she did. so all of that... I mean, to me, all of that... Also tracked, like you guys said people don't report.
00:33:45
Speaker
There are times when I'm reading a book and I'm like, if you're going to do this, quote, the right way, you need to take these steps legally. This is like this is my like legal brain.
00:33:56
Speaker
you know If you want other outcomes later on you need to make sure that you're protecting things now. But like nobody does that. and really People do... do stuff all the time that they're like, if it's a problem later, I'll deal with a later kind of a thing. So a can now that didn't surprise me in this case where it's like, yeah, of course she's not going to tell, you know, they're living in the trailer. Like Holly said, are the cops going to even be on their side? Even beyond that, it seemed like they're a kind of insular community. Like this is just what happens. Yeah. What they say a lot about a lot of different things about teen pregnancies, about
00:34:27
Speaker
sort of this dishing out their own justice yes exactly all this stuff is just like we we do this by ourselves and kind of with the implication of the law is the authority is the outsiders and they don't belong in this space as compared to what we were saying what annie was saying is like i don't want to be seen as weak and i don't want to put my dad in that whatever thing she was saying you know the outcome is the same She probably has a greater trust and authority having her father be a state trooper. But, you know, she's also not utilizing the resources available to her.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah. And she runs away. Basically, she runs off to graduate school in Michigan. So, I mean, that was like, OK, if you're operating at a best practice level, we've already dropped the ball.
00:35:11
Speaker
But I thought what was more interesting in this argument is So like I said, it took a while to get there. Holly said they have the same argument over and over, which they do, but I feel like they have a different version of it. At first it's, you didn't tell me why you did it. So I can't understand you and I'm not going to trust you until I know. Right. Annie says to Eric, you have to tell me, you have to tell me why you did it, or I don't know if I can trust you.
00:35:36
Speaker
Right. And then as things progress, it's, Why are you putting your life in jeopardy for your sister? And, you know, I thought that the last conversation they had about it was a really good conversation. And they I would have liked it that if they'd taken it even farther, where he is basically saying, please don't make me choose between you and my family because I'm going to choose basically because I'm going to choose my family.
00:35:58
Speaker
You know, so they find out the sister finds out that this guy is going to be released from prison and she's scared of what might happen. and she so she calls on her brother and her brother will violate his parole if he goes and finds this guy.
00:36:13
Speaker
He will not violate his parole if he just goes to his house, if he goes to visit his family. Yeah. So there is a genuine risk here. And i think the better point that Annie finally got to was if I stay with you, this will always be hanging over our heads because you keep telling me that this will be the choice that you will make every time okay it comes to the point.
00:36:37
Speaker
And he never really he's just like, don't make me choose. And she's like, this is actually going to affect my life. You know, basically. and yeah And I thought it was sort of interesting that he refused to acknowledge that and even acknowledge the toxicity in his familial relationships, you know, relatable from based on like where he came from and what his experiences had been. It's not like they have intense therapy in prison.
00:37:05
Speaker
Well, to deal with that, but he didn't, he wasn't there and she got there, but not, I think the other thing that I found interesting also was that he and she too, she questioned this attitude, not in terms of his behavior and thought patterns, but in terms of what it would do to him and to her and their future.
00:37:28
Speaker
He never questioned any of his thought patterns at all, but it all boiled down to, I'm going to say the words, patriarchal, misogynistic, toxic masculinity, where a good man is required to protect women from bad men. Yeah.
00:37:43
Speaker
And not just protect them, but avenge them after the fact. Yeah. So at first, I will say i will say this. What I didn't like, that it felt like Annie was constantly moving the goalposts.
00:37:55
Speaker
So when we talk about romance, right, it's we've always said, They changed separately and then together in order to achieve their relationship. Right. And at first I just didn't quite see where he was changing because he stays pretty static. Right.
00:38:09
Speaker
But after sitting with it, here's what I noticed. So Annie, a lot of her anxieties and what she's kind of trying to sort through in this relationship is the lack of certainty. Right.
00:38:19
Speaker
So she's with someone who has a very huge line in the sand in his life. He can't cross it. He crosses it. His whole way of life could be upended. And she's choosing to be with someone who has that circumstance.
00:38:33
Speaker
But if you think about it, she's also coming out of a relationship that was abusive. And she says many times she didn't. When she got into that relationship, she never thought that that was going to be the end result of that abusive relationship, that she was going to end up being abused.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah. And so I think very subtly what she's doing is after having been in that relationship, she wants some, she's looking for some kind of guarantee. yeah First it's that you're not going to hurt me.
00:38:55
Speaker
Or, and then when she realizes he's not going to hurt me, it's that you're not going to hurt anybody else. And then it's okay. I don't think you'd hurt anybody else willingly, but if your sister asks you to, you're going to do it. And then I could lose you. So she's looking for guarantees and i like I liked it, but I was really bothered by it until I realized that I felt like that's what she was doing. She was working through something and that's what it was.
00:39:15
Speaker
So then in the end, I felt a little bit more comfortable that it wasn't necessarily that he was refusing to budge. It was that if she's going to be with him, she has to accept that until the parole is over and all that stuff, that's just going to be part of the deal.
00:39:26
Speaker
yeah And then for him, um i mean, i didn't like it as much, but it made sense. He spent five years thinking about what he did. He's been in jail. He's been limited. He's been punished, right? So what Annie says that she sees in him and what his sister says when they're having the conversation, right, what he's trying to sort through is that he has more to offer than just the violence he can provide when needed.
00:39:47
Speaker
Which goes back to what Aaron was saying about the toxic masculinity, this idea that that's all that these men have to offer. And in the end, there's this part where they're sitting in the car and she doesn't ask for the sister because she knows that he can't give her that answer, but she asks for herself.
00:40:01
Speaker
Do you promise me that if if something happened that you would never put your your freedom on the line? Mm-hmm. To avenge me. To avenge me. yeah And there's this moment where she says she can see that he understands that what she's saying she would lose is more than just his body in her house.
00:40:18
Speaker
yeah It's her feeling of safety. It's the potential of children. It's a marriage. It's a whole future. And she's scared to lose that whole life. And that that all of those intimacies and moments, like that's what she loves him for.
00:40:30
Speaker
And I think that it's very subtle, but that's his growth. Does that make sense? Yeah, i think just to touch on or to further explain what Ingrid's talking about from the very beginning, Eric is like almost a cinnamon roll, which is a weird thing to say about about an incarcerated criminal. But in his letters, he's like, I'd be whatever you wanted to be. Basically, his letters are all ways that he would worship her. Yeah, right.
00:40:54
Speaker
And he continues that every moment. He's like, if you don't want this anymore, don't wear the color of clothes that I said in my letter. Or like, if you never want to see me again, wear black on the last day before my release.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I won't approach you on the outside. and And, you know, at this point, she's like, I don't know if I could trust him. And then as one of you had said, She comes to this realization that she can trust him to be safe with her and so on and so forth. But at every opportunity, he is demonstrated to be a pure caregiver, even when they're having sex.
00:41:30
Speaker
And she's like, use me. He's like, I can't, I can't, I can't do that. Yeah. Like, I can't, I can't have sex that way. That's, you know, like, that wouldn't be appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, so he is like 100% the cinnamon roll type guy which yeah, ties in, I guess, was Ingrid was saying.
00:41:46
Speaker
Like, I get it. I hear what you're saying. It ties into his character of the cinmon cinnamon roll and how he doesn't believe he has value outside of what he can provide. ah Because that's the character that we've seen up to this point.
00:41:58
Speaker
He's not even really willing to ask her for stuff that he wants for him. Yeah, for himself. Yeah. For an example, he wants her to have fancy underpants for Christmas.
00:42:09
Speaker
And you'll notice that at first he's like, whatever you want. And then he says, was it not red? Or I don't remember what it is. Well, first she's like, oh, red, it's Christmas. He's like, okay, yeah, red. Yeah. And then...
00:42:20
Speaker
She has this interaction in the mall and yeah then he says not read. Yeah, but it's that's the thing. Like his putting himself out there is so hard one. And I think in large part because he's so scared that he's going to scare her off.
00:42:33
Speaker
Like he met her in prison. He knows that like he doesn't have as much space for mistakes as other men would have. Right. But the downside of that is that if you're always holding back, then that means that you're the person's never really going to know who you are. And so that's kind of his...
00:42:49
Speaker
His arc. Yeah. Subtle. Well, and and like the way the book is written reinforces this because this is this is a single POV book, only Annie's perspective.
Narrative Techniques and Closure
00:43:01
Speaker
We know Eric from his letters and like the conversations they have, but...
00:43:06
Speaker
We never really know what he's thinking, right? No. No. And also, I think this was a hard one. Like Holly said, it was really interesting. But as we also said, i don't remember which one of you said it focuses so much on the sexual relationship, like their emotional development is by way of the sexual relationship that they...
00:43:28
Speaker
There wasn't a lot of other connection. I can see this book appealing to readers. For me, it was more of a miss because I need more of that emotional connection. Like I can do an erotic romance, but they've got to connect or the sex really has to be doing active work emotionally. And I didn't to give it the benefit of what it's doing.
00:43:47
Speaker
They're both kind of having sexual reawakenings with each other because of their five years of celibacy. yeah But i didn't feel like the sex was doing the level of emotional work that I've read in other erotic moment romance. So it just kind of felt like they were avoiding really getting to know and understand each other. well yeah. Like instead having the sex do all the heavy lifting in their relationship, which...
00:44:12
Speaker
You know, like I'm glad they got where they got at the end. It's maybe more of an HFN than an HEA because they don't go into the what's going to happen later. right Yeah. yeah She hasn't even introduced him to her parents.
00:44:23
Speaker
Well, and that was one. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up, Erin, because that was one thing that so I got to the last page. And here's the hilarious thing. I read i had to read two books for today because I have a review coming out today to catch it later, to folks.
00:44:34
Speaker
But um both of them, i I got to the last page and I was reading on my Kindle thing and I was like pulling the page like, where's the next page? You know what I mean? Like it's it's done. And that's kind of how I felt with this one and with the other one I read where I was like, oh, come on, because it did feel it was a abrupt.
00:44:50
Speaker
here Yeah. But you know what? I'm glad that there was not a three years down the line marriage and babies epilogue. Yes, feel the same. why yeah i It did end abruptly, but I'm glad it ended where it did because i would have felt and like I don't want to see what their marriage and baby's life looks like.
00:45:09
Speaker
no they're not ready They're not ready. Even if you had it be three or four years down the road, there's not enough work in the book to make a reader feel like, yes, this is earned. you know like They're ready to start star being more transparent with each other or something, to really connect with each other on a deep emotional level. They're ready to start that. yeah They are not there yet. Right.
00:45:30
Speaker
Even if the author had done it in a way where it was like, and he went to therapy for three years before we had children. It would have been, it just would have ruined all of like the way the whole book went. I i agree. I don't think there was any, it had to end the way it ended.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. I think. But it is interesting because, so I read, i was going to talk about it later, but I'll talk about it now. I read All Chained Up by Sophie Jordan, which is also about an incarcerated man who, I think she's the nurse actually. Mm-hmm.
00:45:57
Speaker
and there's a situation where he ends up rescuing her so he also gets out early okay and i think he's more sorry about what he did but he's like i'm in for murder ah murdered somebody and i did it you know like i feel like holly had mentioned at the very beginning of the podcast a lot of the times it's like i'm wrongly accused like i'm a felon but i didn't do it yeah It wasn't me. Or something like that. It was much more complicated. Like in this story, a Hard Time, right? It's more complicated than that. You know, I wasn't doing it for myself. I was doing it to avenge harm done to someone else.
00:46:38
Speaker
So there's like ah moral glory to the action as opposed to just, you know, like you took a tire iron and beat the shit out of this guy. Yeah. That's
Thematic Comparisons with Other Books
00:46:47
Speaker
ugly. So same story. And I'll change up by Sophie Jordan. Mm-hmm.
00:46:51
Speaker
there's this There's a reason for the behavior, but he's like, yeah, i killed somebody. But a lot of the conflict then in the second part of the book and and there after he's out is her family, which is mainly I think her sister, just like does not accept that she can be making a good choice for herself by dating this guy. You know, like the family issue is not a small thing. Yeah.
00:47:16
Speaker
So I could like that would be a meaty follow up. for her to deal with. Right now it's easy. She's going to kick the can down the road. Yeah, I'm totally going to tell my parents. I'm just going to tell them later.
00:47:28
Speaker
We'll definitely tell them. like yeah How many times we see that? They live in a different state. I'm not going to worry about right now. um He can't visit mom and dad because it would violate his parole.
00:47:38
Speaker
So yeah, we'll talk about that later. Yeah. And that was like 100% of the conflict of some books and here it didn't even get addressed. But that would be a very difficult thing for her to deal with as well, especially with it the part where he's an ex-con.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah. And her dad is a state trooper.
00:47:58
Speaker
You know, like, okay. Yeah, well, it's fine so I think one of the interesting things about this one is that I liked that it didn't seem to glorify or shy away from.
00:48:09
Speaker
So that like, like you guys said, most of the time the criminal books I've i've read, which I can't obviously remember titles because I'm me. But I feel like the vibe tends to be, i am a paragon. If I am a criminal, there's a reason for it. Or I'm wrongly accused. i'm it's It's the exception, not the rule.
00:48:26
Speaker
and This one felt more like the rule. It felt like there are reasons why, but not all of them are good reasons, you know, but they're understandable reasons. And Even their relationship has understandable limitations and pitfalls. It just was really interesting the way that it played out.
00:48:43
Speaker
But one thing I thought was very interesting, the only like critique that I had that was like, the execution of this was interesting to me, is that in the first couple meetings that they have, his verbal rhythm and grammar is a lot more, as he would self-describe it, he says trailer trash or white trash, but small town, rural America.
00:49:05
Speaker
And that he has this dysgraphia, which felt to me, and I understand they said texting and typing was easier for him, felt to me like it just poof wasn't a problem anymore.
00:49:17
Speaker
There was that. And that the way that he spoke, suddenly he and Annie had the same exact speech patterns. Yeah. you know Once they're out and they're actually talking more. Yeah. We're like in prison. And I mean, maybe that's just because, you know, when you're in an environment, it's kind of like when you're around somebody who has an accent and you find yourself accidentally kind of like stealing it every once while. Does that ever happen to you? Probably not. Happens to me. Yeah, yeah definitely.
00:49:42
Speaker
Yeah. So anyhow, I mean, it could be one of those things or it could be that he's purposefully trying to speak differently. And also in the beginning, you know, it's it's like she thinks he's got this like dangerous vibe. He's so powerful and strong. And then it's almost like the second he gets out, it's like cinnamon roll.
00:49:58
Speaker
It almost felt kind of like a personality transplant, which again could be there could could be explained, but it wasn't really. it was just kind of snuck under the radar. And i don't know if that bothered you guys, but I was kind of like, oh, come on, like, you know,
00:50:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i was just, i would, at that point, I was like kind of irritated with Annie, so... Oh, yeah, it was in the like, I think at the point you were reading all that, i was like, Annie, can you not see any shades of gray?
00:50:26
Speaker
And I'm a black and white thinker, unfortunately. But I think I don't know, I just don't I get I get bogged down in like the boat. Okay, but why? But okay, but what do you think about this part? Okay, but what about this part? And I would, I would have drilled down with so many more questions instead of just being like,
00:50:41
Speaker
Well, you did the crime, so now you should be fixed. But now, but like I said, you did the time, so now you should be fixed. But like I said, she's heard explanations before. Yeah. She kind of didn't want him. She wanted she wanted him to answer the one question she wanted answered because she thought that one question was going to make her feel better because she wanted certainty and you can't have it.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's why I think. And then it toward the end when she was like, he's not going to bend on this. Like, honestly, they did a really well. He did a good job of setting and maintaining his boundaries. He was just like, I'm not going to I'm not going to choose. The choice is going to be yours. This is what I'm going to do.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And what you do with that information is up to you. then she was trying to manipulate him with various ultimatums, basically. Right. And he was like, don't make me choose. Well, and he totally called her out on it. And she was like, yeah, if I could save your life, then I'm going to do it. Yeah. Right. and And so at that point, I was getting frustrated with that whole situation. So maybe, yeah, I was just focused on other, you know, the interpersonal stuff that you love to tease me about all the time.
00:51:45
Speaker
And I do have to say because you know like the things that I focus on is like the gender essentialism and some of this I was like oh man. Oh man, what are we doing? But to be fair to the book, first it was written in 2014, so I'll give it like, we knew what gender essentialism was 10 years ago.
00:52:02
Speaker
And like the toxic masculinity stuff, I think they are interrogating. But like Annie does a lot of like his male body, my female body, perfect match, smush, smush, smush, kind of thing. um by
00:52:20
Speaker
Okay, but I feel like we've really picked this book apart. Oh, yeah. But to like bring it back to the criminal stuff. Do you feel how do you feel like this book taps into common criminal romance tropes or subvert them? Or do you think it does? i don't know, like thinking big picture.
00:52:37
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like this is just kind of doing a different thing. And the same with that Sophie Jordan book that I mentioned as well. it's ah The books I've read in this type of category are interrogating social emotional human experiences. And you might get that a little bit in some of the other options, probably not like a heist or a con, because those are just like, like let's have Let's go have a fun adventure. yeah yeah That's not usually the point of those. Yeah.
00:53:10
Speaker
Right. But even with even in all the other ones, I feel like it's not at this level because the other plots are doing more work in in an assassin book in a mafia book. Right. Right. We like we can't do interrogate all this stuff because we have to like go kill some people.
00:53:29
Speaker
first Yeah, right. Well, and I think when you're looking at something like a an assassin or mafia or an MC club, like part of my MC romance thing was it doesn't reflect real motorcycle clubs.
Realism vs. Romanticism in Criminal Narratives
00:53:41
Speaker
Motorcycle club romance does not reflect a lot of what a motorcycle club is. in most of the US. Just like where it is, it's more common in cities.
00:53:52
Speaker
In books, it's almost always in the country. you know like You're going to have outright white supremacist stuff going on in most real motorcycle clubs. like We're all friends here in most MC clubs in books. So the world building of like a mafia or an assassin thing or an MC club is it's not reflecting. this is hard.
00:54:17
Speaker
I want to say it's not reflecting a realistic human journey, but I feel like even in fantastic fiction, you can. It's like, it's not still drill into real ideas, right but it's not reflecting like the lived experiences and consequences of actually being a criminal.
00:54:35
Speaker
in the United States at this time. Yes, I think that captures what I'm trying to say for sure. So yeah, and I think, I think especially with mafia stuff or assassin type stuff, it's a about the fantastical.
00:54:48
Speaker
And therefore, you know, you might get some of the social emotional stuff in the mafia stuff. You might be like, I'm a good girl. I can't be absorbed into this dark criminal world. But but he's so sexy, you know.
00:55:00
Speaker
That, yes. It's not, it's not the sit it's not the same. And then for the heist stuff and the con stuff, it's like the fun, like we said, it's like Ocean's Eleven. It's like the Italian job. It's a fun, clever heist. Yeah.
00:55:15
Speaker
Where that you want them to get away with it. Right. Yeah, I think the difference is like romanticizing criminals and either romanticizing their crimes or justifying their crimes or pretending their crimes don't exist.
00:55:28
Speaker
Like those ah kind of are all happening where we romanticize criminals versus saying, okay, this is he's a criminal and we're not romanticizing that part of him or she's a criminal. I guess there could I had I don't think I've read any female. I've not read one. I've read like female criminals, but not in this particular flavor. Not like this.
00:55:45
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Right, but we're not romanticizing this part of this character. it It's like, this is part of him, and because everybody deserves love and everybody deserves a happy ending, that includes people who have done terrible things in their past.
00:56:04
Speaker
Yeah. and And it's more like that rather than the terrible things he's doing now are so or or she. Are somehow okay. Or even precisely what make them attractive.
00:56:16
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think that this this particular type of criminal is actually an interesting outlier. Because it's not really a morality chain, because he's usually already kind of gone through his own journey. like that was they He's already gotten that far in prison. Right. ah Kind of a thing.
00:56:38
Speaker
um And and now we're dealing with the aftermath right as opposed to... So it's not even a morality chain and it's not romanticizing the crimes or making the criminal, kind like the criminal archetype sexy. It's trying to figure out, is this, am I repeating exactly what you said?
00:56:58
Speaker
How to give these people their happily ever after. yeah So it feels like, it feels like it's a different subcategory than basically all the other criminals. I feel like if we chose any other kind of criminal, we'd be like, well, this is a ride. Yeah.
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah. That was fun. Or something. Or a lot. Or whatever. I mean, it's like it's like this specific kind of ah criminal is more like you still get a little bit of bad boy.
00:57:24
Speaker
Right? Just a little though. Yeah. You know? It's like we get the bad boy cred without the continued bad boy behavior. Well, and I think too it's it's well it's like bad boy light.
00:57:35
Speaker
who Yeah. Okay. So
Book Recommendations and Unique Stories
00:57:37
Speaker
here's the question. Do we want to give recommendations or is the criminal archetype just too big and we're just like, eh? I mean, i can say that if you liked this book, you might like All Chained Up by Sophie Jordan.
00:57:53
Speaker
So I can also say like um another similar one that I've read is Convict by Roxy Noir, which is he I don't remember what his crime is, but he's out when the book starts.
00:58:05
Speaker
And, you know, is like he's working as a mechanic or something. And I think that that one is a little bit more actiony because his criminal past comes back and like wants him to get re-involved. And it's about a little bit about him trying to navigate that. And I'm pretty sure the heroine in that is a cop.
00:58:21
Speaker
So there's so that's always that's always fun. who Yeah. But he is, you know, an ex-con who's kind of dealing with like, what does my life look like now that this is behind me?
00:58:31
Speaker
yeah so the other book that i mentioned the mia hopkins book that's about ah gang member it's trashed by mia hopkins i was right about that one he gets out of prison that one's interesting i read it a while ago so i wasn't at my current level of emotional maturity and dealing with ridiculous characters doing ridiculous things good jobing but i had thank you i had a hard time with the decisions that he was making because he was just really struggling to make good decisions yeah So the tension was high.
00:59:00
Speaker
But that one also was like he was in a gang and, you know, there's like family trauma and social stuff going on where the gang continues to be an issue. And so that might be worth a read as well. Well, so that's that's the only one that I actually remember. And also probably when I haven't read a lot that have this kind of vibe where it's kind of more realistic and.
00:59:22
Speaker
nuanced um depiction and that's the only one that I that I remember read so I guess that's the second you read trash yeah I did I liked it actually yeah it it's a similar vibe where it's like he accepts he he did earn to go to prison it was on purpose like he knew what led him there was but it also didn't sit there and dwell on it so I guess okay so I do want to throw out one other book and maybe you guys can tell me if you think it's a similar kind of thing So Big Bad Wolf by Selika Snyder.
00:59:49
Speaker
It's he isn't in prison yet. he He's I mean, he's in jail and he's on trial for murdering like another gang, I think.
01:00:00
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, I did it. And I'm a bad person and I do not deserve redemption. And the love interest is his defense lawyer.
01:00:11
Speaker
who's like actually this was justified and there's a good person inside of you maybe mean it's so but there's nothing to say they have to be in jail yeah but then it turns it has like a whole suspense plot and like also he's a wolf shifter so like there's there's there's a lot of other stuff going on layered layered Right. and And then they like they're like on the run because like there's an evil conspiracy that's out to get him. And so she's like on the run with him. and All right.
01:00:44
Speaker
Well, that might just take us too far into suspense territory. Which might take us into another direction. But if you want somebody who killed a bunch of people and feels not bad about it, but like that means that he's not a good enough person to be with the love interest, then that might scratch that itch.
Conclusion and Future Topics
01:01:03
Speaker
maybe oh okay before we sign off i'm gonna throw this one out here because this was a really thank you read it's going public by hudson lynn it's white collar crime wo he doesn't any of those yeah he does their crime and goes to prison for it and it was the first time i'd read a book where i was like wait a minute the criminal in the book is being held accountable for his crimes is that romantic?
01:01:32
Speaker
It was but that one was definitely different. But they are like executing the crime during the book. It's MM. So it's the guy who's like an executive and his assistant. His assistant is not complicit.
01:01:45
Speaker
So he doesn't go to prison. He just like waits until the prison sentence is over for his boss to come back and they can like get on with their lives but his boss slash really interesting like boss slash Enron embezzler slash one true love yeah okay it was interesting so anyway going public by Hudson Lynn so we've got some options for you so on that note we have some more podcasts planned for the coming months and i guess they will be surprises for all of you and for us too probably
01:02:19
Speaker
In the meantime, you can find the show notes at smutreport.com slash podcast. You can also find all of our other prior podcasts there or on your favorite streaming service, probably.
01:02:31
Speaker
We might be on the socials. You're most likely to get a hold of Holly on Blue Sky at Smut Report. Until next time. Keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!