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Tumblereads #1
79 Plays13 days ago
We're trying something a little different here at The Smut Report Pod, where we just talk about whatever we're reading and see where it takes us. What we got was 30 minutes of unedited chit chat, mostly about Romantasy.
For a list of all the books we talked about, go to smutreport.com/podcast.
Like the format? Hate it? Have a question you'd like us to answer? Leave us a comment here.
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Transcript
Introduction and New Format Discussion
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi everybody i am Holly and I am one third of the smut report and we're trying something a little different with our podcast today so this was Ingrid's idea so I'm gonna let Ingrid explain what we're what we're doing here yeah so we were chit-chatting about fun things we could do um just to spice up life because apparently life talking about dirty books isn't spicy enough and uh Anyway, it's not. It's not. And we we were thinking that one of our favorite things ah is to just talk about books and that we have more fun and laugh harder when we're just being ourselves talking about books with a little bit less structure.
00:00:44
Speaker
What did I call it when we were talking about it? Oh, tumbleweeding. So where we just go where the conversation takes us. And so we thought we would give it a shot um and do it shorter and just see how it felt.
00:00:56
Speaker
Yeah. Is that the gist? Yeah. Yeah. I think the goal also was like what we're reading this week. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yes. Still waking up. Yes. It was just basically to talk about kind of um kind of like what we do naturally where we're like, this is what I'm reading. um But unstructured, the stuff we're not reading assigned for the for the job, the stuff that we're doing for fun.
00:01:14
Speaker
Or maybe even the stuff we are doing for assigned for the job. i don't know. That's what tumbleweed, the tumbleweed, we just go where the wind takes us. And so the idea is these are going to be unedited, no more 30 minute conversations. And we're going to take turn emceeing. And this week is my week.
00:01:33
Speaker
um So, and because I'm the boss of this week, I'm setting a timer.
Exploring 'Forsworn' by J.D. Pendagger
00:01:39
Speaker
Right now, for 25 minutes. 25 minutes, guys. Alright, we're So when it goes off, we're you're just gonna, like, say bye and And it won't be awkward at all Yeah I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong Yeah so listeners Let us know what you think of this We are still going to be doing Monthly-ish Our big deep dive Bigger conversations Probably I don't know unless we get into everything want to get into here We'll see We just do what we want But yes we do have another deep dive conversation Still in the works planned for this month And others in the future
00:02:15
Speaker
Anyway, okay, so like I said, um I'm Holly, we're gonna talk for 24 minutes now. And what I wanted to do this week was I'm gonna kind of throw some questions at my friends at The Smut Report.
00:02:29
Speaker
And this was inspired but in part by a little stuff that was happening in the group chat. So I'm going to give the background. And ah basically, I was reading a book. um And it's an arc. And it's called Forsworn by J.D. Pendagger.
00:02:43
Speaker
And I was reading it. And I'm like, it it's like a fantasy romance-ish. And I'm reading it, I'm like, I don't feel like this is a romance. Like, I don't know what's going on.
00:02:54
Speaker
And I'm reading it, and I'm like, wait
Defining Romanticcy vs. Romance
00:02:56
Speaker
a minute. Maybe this book is actually ah romanticy, that fantasy romance and romanticy are maybe different things, but I needed to ask Erin and Ingrid about that, because especially Ingrid has read like 200 romanticy books this year.
00:03:11
Speaker
Too many. I'm hitting this real hard, guys. So many. Okay, so- Hyper fixation. Hooray. Yeah. So basically, start off question is, in romanticcy, as opposed to say in single POV contemporary romance, is the main character or the text interested in the interior life of the love interest?
00:03:36
Speaker
don't think so that's my question. Yeah, yeah i't I don't think so. So i i have to i have to agree. It's not, and I think like that, I mean, that makes it sound so callous and heartless, but in fact, no, I i have to say that I, no, I don't think that on, in most um romantic-y books that the heroine is in, now, again, this is a sweeping judgment here.
00:04:01
Speaker
So obviously there are exceptions, but what I've noticed is that most of the time the heroine is so busy trying to either save the world or avoid the obvious path of her destiny that she really can't be focused on what's going on with him he is the pursuer and the protector right so even if it's enemies to lovers like in the beginning like she's got stuff to do and he's pursuing her and it's very interesting because i saw um an analysis and i wish i knew where it was but i think it's kind of broad because i think it's kind of ah we've all picked up on this, it's obvious at this point, that romanticy really is kind of a response to what's happening culturally right now, where like in a romanticy book, the, the, I mean, I don't want to say, again, we're we're talking in pronounce, sweeping pronouncements here. So you you guys just have to blanket forgive me because everything that is coming out of my mouth will be a generalization for a while.
00:04:49
Speaker
That's what I want. I want your generalization. This a hot take. As someone who's read a lot of this genre. so So in these books, right, the woman is, she is the one with the power. She is the one with the abilities.
00:05:01
Speaker
She is the one people line up behind, right? So like in his in our society and in previous fantasy books, it's lining up behind the guy. And in romanticcy,
00:05:12
Speaker
It's flipped on its axis. The woman has the power. She's the one realizing the
Love Interests and Emotional Labor
00:05:16
Speaker
destiny. Everyone's futures are safe as long as she succeeds in her quest, right? Like she is also the one who gets to decide about her like sexual choices and who she sleeps with and that is threatened and she comes out victorious. So like all these things that we're seeing threatened in our society right now and all of these things that are going on with rights being taken away from women and with women being expected to like line up behind their men and have their lives like, you know, orient behind like their partner or their their male partner. This is flipped on its axis in romanticcy. Women are really strong and capable to kick butt, take people out, murder without second thought. Like all these things that women have not been able to do because we're not supposed to be like that.
00:05:52
Speaker
that's how it is in this so of course a woman being like oh I hope I wonder if he likes me I wonder if his feelings were hurt when that guy stabbed him in the shoulder like she doesn't she's not thinking about that because she she she has other priorities although I do feel like when we read the fourth wing like Violet is like pretty interested in what's his face well although maybe maybe not in the first book maybe it's just because I also read the second book and the second book is entirely her obsessing about how what's going on with him that's true in the first book in fourth wing she was just like that guy's a jerk and he's always gonna have the most you know malignant reasons for doing whatever he's doing like he's the bad guy right in a my story um
00:06:39
Speaker
Oh man, Holly, we're talking about this. But it different if it's This is a, this is a, it's technically not YA, but the story is written like it's YA. The, the, it's a heroine's journey, right? So it's not going to be surprising that even in this, where they're lining up behind her, kind of like she, She doesn't have power. So using the fourth wing example again, or i mean, even we can go to ACOTAR, where we're looking a character who begins in an underdog position and becomes powerful. So I think this is obviously part of the narrative arc that we're dealing with. And it's so focused on that.
00:07:13
Speaker
that And I think what the interiority question maybe should focus on as well, maybe not instead of all this, what Ingrid has just described, is that what the love interest is doing is not it is not like...
00:07:28
Speaker
the priority relevant to the story right like there's no examination of even if there's a question of like why is this character doing these things i can't figure this character out it's not like oh i'm going to learn about your trauma and your personal like life goals and how we can mesh together to overcome obstacles it's like i'm i'm very thinking about for wi fourth wing like He's definitely got some stuff going on and some reasons for doing why he's doing like reasons for doing what he's doing. But it's it's it becomes an explanation for why she should why she was wrong about him before.
00:08:07
Speaker
It's not like he is a fully realized, round, dynamic character. Well, and I think the the key difference here is that in traditional romances of yore, right, like the so woman is often doing a lot of the emotional labor So like if there is something for him to uncover, she's good. She's the one who's like uncovering it finding the solution often. um Again, not always, but you know, cause, and it makes sense because that's kind of how things go in our society. Like, um but, but in the romanticcy, often what I'm seeing is that he's the one who it's, this is a, this is a ah key factor.
00:08:43
Speaker
feature that I've noticed in a lot of romanticism. So there's always a scene where she realizes like, oh, this guy who I've thought hated me or we've always had this like contemptuous relationship has been protecting me and taking care of me and doing stuff for me all along and I just didn't know it. Right. And then there's the big reveal where he unpacks all these ways that he's been taking care of her and loving her secretly for so long.
00:09:06
Speaker
Right. And, and after that, there's ah usually like a series of other disclosures that he makes, but he is doing the emotional disclosure disclosing. He is the one who is doing the sharing. He is the one who's doing the connect. He's connecting all the dots for her.
00:09:22
Speaker
He's doing the emotional labor for her so that she can focus on what she needs to focus on. And even in fourth wing, I would argue that, yes, I think that the reason it feels more obsessy is because she's young. She's a young character and she's obsessing about this guy she's in love with.
00:09:36
Speaker
But even so, if you think about the plot, he's doing all these things that he's doing to protect her. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Integrating Romance into Fantasy
00:09:44
Speaker
Okay. So I have follow question.
00:09:47
Speaker
specifically about the book i read because you're bringing up all this gender stuff so for sworn is the main character is the hero not the heroine and it is cishet romance so um but the so the heroine is the deposed princess who's trying to fix the kingdom and regain the crown and the hero is um mercenary who died and was brought back to life by a chaos god so he's like protecting her but he's going through his journey and learning about his magic so there's some hero's journey stuff but some of the things that you're describing Ingrid about how he's like doing the emotional labor himself so she doesn't have to worry about it and
00:10:32
Speaker
um protecting her secretly or like she thinks he's not but really he is and he can't he's like not explaining his motives to her all of that is happening but it's happening from his point of view so is that still a romantic or because of like the long history of just fantasy writing Would this book be just then like shelved with the fantasy books and not with the romanicy books? Because it doesn't we have that same P.O.D.
00:10:59
Speaker
thing going on. He is the one doing the emotional work as Ingrid described. She is Well, I don't know what emotional work she's doing because the text does not care about her interior life at all.
00:11:10
Speaker
So... Right. So it's well, OK, so have you not finished i have not gotten to the part where she's right? So going back to our fourth, I'm trying to clarify, sorry. Going back to our fourth wing analogy or example that's easy to reference.
00:11:24
Speaker
the we We get this big reveal from what's his face right at the end where we see, as Ingrid said, all of the stuff that he has done for her. So you're saying we don't get that from her.
00:11:36
Speaker
Well, right, because we're seeing what he's doing for her the whole time. Because he's the one who's doing it. okay Because he's the one who's doing it So, i I mean, my gut instinct here is to say this.
00:11:48
Speaker
And this is like my English creative writing college brain clicking on. But i would say i would say my gut instinct is this. um you I think you kind of have to reduce it back to what what the plot plot purpose is if the plot is revolving around their romance if that is what it is right if if the if if it is one of those things where it's like there's two because i i think romanticy is two things it's you know save the world the fantasy quest type thing and this has to be done with us together like this this romance is integral to that succeeding right that's romanticy if that's kind of the the if you boil everything else down and erase everything else if that's the plot
00:12:29
Speaker
then I think it's meant to be a romanticcy. But there's two questions here. Is it a romanticcy and is it a successful romanticcy? Good point. So just because i think you could say like, if you eliminate everything else, it is a romantic quest, then it's a romanticcy.
00:12:47
Speaker
But the author did something really different with this and having it come from this other perspective, which, you know, is more of a traditional fantasy choice right yeah yeah so that was what i was thinking more like there's no shortage of sex and fantasy no um and there's no shortage of romance and fantasy so uh i guess ingrid has maybe already made the point that like the romantic is the tie-in of the romantic arc must support it cannot operate independently of the plot arc is that right ingrid Yeah, so in, i mean, i hate to say it because i i know Fourth Wing is kind of the one that you have, but Fourth Wing, I think, is more of an anomaly to this than other books. So um in most romanticcy books that I've been reading, which is substantial, the
00:13:34
Speaker
the couple really kind of has to be together in order for the quest to succeed. So she is the linchpin. Like, okay, they need to be together, like, need to be sorry part of, like, the questing party together, supporting each other, or they need to be together, like, they need to be in a romantic place Paired. Romantic paired relationship. because Whoa, hold on. Because I read one. i whole Okay, you can can finish actually because I'm going to look up for the book the title that I So this is where like I don't want to I don't want to, this is not ah this is not ah this is not a hard and fast. It's just a common trend. So like let me be really clear about that.
00:14:12
Speaker
But I think that the reason I would not use fourth wing and I would say it with this other this other way is that this is this is the example that I'm giving for for how important it is, is that in a lot of these books. So she's got powers usually. Right.
00:14:25
Speaker
and he's got powers. Well, in I want to say, like, I'm not kidding. In the last couple months, I've probably read like 30 or 40 romanticity books. in like a vast majority of these books when they join together there's like a power transfer right yeah it's like Captain Planet by our
Romanticcy Subgenres and Themes
00:14:41
Speaker
powers combined we create mega power we create a mega power or or that their powers are so complimentary that like he can heal her or she can heal him or she's the light often it's a di it's she's the light he's the dark or he's the dark she's the light or whatever it is sure but that I think my question is does I know I missed that
00:15:02
Speaker
ah it does my question Does this require ah romantic relationship from the from the jump? Because I would say that so the one I just read was once a Prana Broken Heart.
00:15:13
Speaker
um And the characters are like forced together by circumstance to do the quest. And there is a lot of romantic tension. under like She's like, I hate this guy.
00:15:27
Speaker
He is the worst. Right? Right. And like he does a lot of really bad stuff. There's a moral gray character. Oh, yum. but But, ah you know, if the reader can interpret all of these things that he is doing, that he is doing them for reasons of feelings, I guess, if we're not even if not love.
00:15:48
Speaker
um But it is not until the bitter end that they like really. And this is a three book trilogy. So it's not until the bitter end that they really. kind of pull it together there's some back and forth in the middle i have to say the the question and in this case is we're not looking for exceptions to disprove a rule here we're looking at how successfully it's done so like just because that happened that way like did you like it better did you not like it they're it's playing with a tool it doesn't mean that it's like here's right i'm just saying i'm not sure that they have to be in a romantic relationship
00:16:21
Speaker
In order to successfully their powers together. In to successfully get there. I think the romance as part of the thread and the plot, I totally agree with. I'm just... I feel like there's a lot of tension in the will they won't they, like what what is the status of the romance in romanticcy? that As I was reading this one that I was talking about, it was like giving me all of this throwback feelings to like when I was a teenager and like would was willing to read like those really long stories for the very long payoff.
00:16:49
Speaker
And I feel like that's more of the romantic story is like long investment for the payoff. ah Well, I will say that, I mean, for, and i'm I might have just been reading different ones, so I would be curious to hear what other people think, but the ones that I have read have been, like, overwhelmingly, the couple gets together um a third, halfway through, but, like, there is still the long, it's still the long.
00:17:13
Speaker
I'm thinking, for example, well, I'm thinking of all of them. Honestly, I've read a bunch of them, but a really solid example that I can give you is Jennifer Armentrout. okay um Jennifer Armantrout is if you like ACOTAR, but you found it ah kind of frustrating, like it wasn't like if if if you kind of don't get the hype behind ACOTAR, Armantrout is a good example.
00:17:35
Speaker
It was a good one that I would pivot to. um So I in that one, they do take a long time to get together. There is a lot of like that. Well, they won't be they hatred enemy stuff going on. Right.
00:17:47
Speaker
But they again, like in many, many series, um it like i I will I will look and I will follow up on this. But vast majority, they do need to be together because there's this like she's got the weight of the world on her shoulders and they when their relationship pivots is really when she can take off and succeed.
00:18:07
Speaker
It's commonly what I'm
Literature Debate and Reading Trends
00:18:08
Speaker
seeing. um Okay. So maybe not that she that they have to be together because that's the only way they can work together but it's like once they get that final piece of also getting the romantic love together that's when they're able to fully trust each other and can take off to be it's super successful right people and like what you might see is for example there's if you look at um there's i see i wish i could remember all these titles but there are ones where it's it's um that once they are vulnerable enough to because they're in a relationship or because they're
00:18:44
Speaker
a relationship is budding or even just if their relationship is starting to shift they can start like she can learn more about her powers because she has someone she can trust enough to be vulnerable with you know what i mean or like so it doesn't necessarily mean that like they have to share powers it can just be that like the the added benefit of vulnerability and support makes it possible for her to like sure take off so but i don't i mean i'm thinking here of uh so jennifer arm and trout has that going on there's this one series with it starts in ah New Orleans with a house of psycho stuff. um
00:19:16
Speaker
That one has it where he's basically like her mentor and they don't get together until the bitter end of that book. It's not a series, but their vulnerabilit their vulnerability and their connection starts sooner than that. Do you know what i mean? um sarahre jazz but Jasmine mat is that what her name is um Moss has where they're super big enemies. And then it's usually like a Polly situation where it's like the heroine and then you usually three guys with her. But um you Ingrid, how far you've come in your reading.
00:19:43
Speaker
Listen, I yeah like my brain had an itch. I had to know what the heck was going on with this. And so I read all of them. But but it's the same thing where like they protect her. they look They help each other. Like there's this thing where like as soon as the vulnerability is opened, like then she can go do what she needs to be when he' is not doing.
00:20:00
Speaker
So I don't know. I'd be curious other people think that I don't think fourth wing is the best example of this. I think fourth wing is doing something a little different. Okay, when you say best example of this, you mean of ah general trends in romantic writing?
00:20:13
Speaker
Yes. Okay. yes That actually tracks. I feel like Fourth Wing is unique. and i also the breakout books, they're not they're not necessarily like spectacular pieces of literature. they're like Oh, Aaron, people are mad at you. Accessible and exciting.
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, I'm like, there, I mean, lots of things over time. You wouldn't say, oh, this is like the prose is, I'm not even talking about fourth wing, but like the prose is so amazing and it's blah, blah, blah. No, it's like accessible and fun. That's when things become knockout bestsellers because people want to sit down and read them. well and If if' all the reviews are like, oh, the prose is so beautiful and elevated, that's like sure sign that this book's going to sell 100 copies total only to book critics.
00:21:02
Speaker
I mean, I guess there are some where it's like, okay, you know, ah there are, I'm not even going to name names. Let's just not even do it. But there are some names that we could throw out there. they'd be like, oh, yes, they get the, like, lit accolades in addition to being in the romance space.
00:21:18
Speaker
um But that's like a whole other conversation. So maybe we can table that for the next one. I will say that I have been grouping stuff. So because I've read so many and there are definite sub categories to romanticity like there is the boarding school category, which is like the fourth wing. You're a student.
00:21:36
Speaker
Often you fall in love with an older student or teacher like that kind of a thing. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. And then there's the category where it's gods and goddesses, right?
00:21:46
Speaker
And then there's the ah dark and light or like demon type thing. Do you know what i mean? So there's like very definite, like different categories. like subcategories, which makes a big difference as well.
00:21:58
Speaker
And in within those subcategories, there are very strong trends. So anyway, so if you like one, like I am trying to make it so that you can have like, here is your binge list. Here is your other binge list. Ingrid, are you actually working on this piece or just talking to us about it I am actually working on it. Yes, because I... Because we need it...
00:22:17
Speaker
I binged so hard and so fast, guys, that um I made the
Immersive Reading Effects
00:22:22
Speaker
monumental. I was like, I need to come up for air because i was getting to the point where like I was knocking out. lets So, you know how how big the Jennifer Armantrout series is? Well, you don't.
00:22:29
Speaker
Think ACOTAR. Imagine nailing the entirety of ACOTAR in one week. That's what I did. Well, didn't you do that also? You did that. I did that. The number of times I have done that in like over the summer, like I read so many books that it made me a little queasy. And also at the end of it, I was like, I think I need to do a palate cleanser. So I made the monumental mistake of reading like ah a sweet Regency book.
00:22:54
Speaker
Girl Detective Society book and the shock of going from like, oh, I just beheaded somebody because he disrespected me to, oh, well, Miss Norris will be very upset if my petticoats aren't perfectly straight. I was like, who like, I couldn't do it.
00:23:12
Speaker
I had to close the book and be like, we're not doing this today. You had to close the book and be like, sorry, got to go back to the headings. Yeah. It was like, I, it's too much. It's cause like, I'm just sitting here like, why can't you just behead Miss Norris?
00:23:24
Speaker
Like, sounds like she should mind her own business. It's, I am not ready for that shift. The binge continues. So anyway, I'm organizing my thoughts. Cause I was like, well, i have to do something to come up for air. i'm going to start like starting duels with my neighbors. Anyway.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah. Well, um now I know. Don't buy you a sword for your birthday. Don't buy me a sword for my birthday. Yeah. I'm looking at my kids. I'm like looking at my kids over the summer like, but I just told you to do this. And I'm i'm clearly the alpha in this household. And you should be doing whatever I tell you to and saying like, yes, mistress. Like, what's going on here? No, this didn't happen. Poor summer.
00:24:03
Speaker
ah you Don't do what I did because
Conclusion and Listener Interaction
00:24:05
Speaker
it will mess with your head. Anyway. That was our timer, by the way. So on that note, um you can just picture Ingrid beheading people. And in the meantime, keep it smutty, folks.
00:24:16
Speaker
Oh, wait, before I say that, maybe I should say bye. i don't know. We're not editing this, so it's going to be chaotic. um Anyway. um If you like our stuff, you can subscribe. If you like our chaos thing, let us know and maybe we'll make this more regular. i think our goal is to make this more regular, but if nobody likes it, then maybe not. I don't know.
00:24:37
Speaker
ah If people have questions, they could probably even throw them in and be like, hey, and we'd be like, ah I want to talk about that. I don't want to talk about that. Oh, yeah. We'll have to figure out how to do Q&A. In the meantime, you can leave a comment on the blog.
00:24:52
Speaker
And you can find where to do that at smutreport.com slash podcast. Until then? Until then. Now I'll say, keep it smutty. That was good. Keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na.
00:25:04
Speaker
Smut Report!