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Tumblereads 8: Self-Publishing, Trad-Publishing, and Art in Society
11 Plays9 minutes ago
This week on Tumblereads, the Smut Report Team is talking about self-publishing powerhouses getting picked up by Big 5 Publishers.
Shownotes at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to TumbleReads
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this edition of TumbleReads at the Smart Report podcast. um In case you're new here, TumbleReads is where we spend 30 minutes timed talking about whatever we feel like because it's like a tumbleweed.
00:00:22
Speaker
We're so funny. Okay. So, um, I'm Aaron.
Recent Reads and Encounters
00:00:28
Speaker
i i eron I'm Ingrid. I'm Holly. um So I had a couple of different ideas for what we could today.
00:00:39
Speaker
One was just talking about what we've read this week. But one is I've got a couple ideas of ah specific items that I have come across recently to discuss.
00:00:52
Speaker
What would you like to do? Specific items. Which door? Yes. All right. All right.
Humorous Riddle
00:00:59
Speaker
It's okay. So like... Whenever you say which door, i always think of a riddle that my kids love.
00:01:05
Speaker
It's like you're in your car and you drive up and in front of you is a gold door and a silver door. ah Which door do you open first? The silver door?
00:01:16
Speaker
Your car door! Oh my gosh, guys. That's so dorky and I really love it a lot. You're welcome. and kid My kind of humor.
00:01:27
Speaker
ah Alright, well here is, i did I just set the timer, so okay. Get started. um So I'll pull up the actual
Indie Authors and Traditional Publishers
00:01:35
Speaker
screen. screenshot it's basically i will i will um not i'll paraphrase the the the online the social media quote is basically talking about how they feel like most popular romance that's getting signed by traditional publishers right now is just publishers signing indie authors who've already made it really big
00:01:59
Speaker
And basically, like, they've already done the work and the publishers are just swooping in and signing them after they've already made their mark and, you know, done all the legwork in the beginning.
00:02:11
Speaker
um so Okay, and so just so I'm clear about, like, they're referring to people like Ruby Dixon, um who had huge success in KU, and then ah Berkeley is re-releasing the Ice Planet Barbarians. Right.
00:02:28
Speaker
And Colleen Hoover, um who wasn't who was indie published before she, like, exploded into everywhere. Right. And maybe to a lesser extent, or ah Mariana Zapata. Right.
00:02:40
Speaker
I mean, nobody's like reaching Colleen Hoover levels of what's going on here. um but even they're not the first ones. I mean, this is, yeah. And I was thinking, well, we have somebody in the house who has some professional experience in this area um who could describe a bit yeah describe what's going on here.
00:02:59
Speaker
um just, I mean, i also had seen a quote well before this ah from Ruby Dixon talking about... I don't know if it was specifically in response to something that she had read somewhere, but she was talking about why she chose to sign with Berkeley and how much like, yeah, she was doing great. She's got a huge following on Kindle Unlimited um or she did before the rights were purchased.
00:03:27
Speaker
But, you know, the, the fact that she signed with Berkeley meant that her books were able to reach a much wider audience than just the Kindle Unlimited crowd. Right.
Author Marketing Anecdotes
00:03:38
Speaker
Didn't you send us a clip recently of, like, Stephen Colbert talking oh yeah about her book?
00:03:46
Speaker
Right. Like, if she were not in Barnes & Noble, she would not be, like, Stephen Colbert – I mean, he was kind of making fun of it, but he wouldn't be shouting it out. He just know yet. he He doesn't know yet. He doesn't understand. doesn't understand. But, like, yeah the way, Erin, you're framing – This is or the way pet you're the way I'm communicating that it has been framed.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yes, the way you're communicating that it has been framed it is if publishers are swooping in um and taking advantage of these authors, and they're reaping all the rewards after the authors did all the work.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what it sounds like. Right? That's what it sounds like people are complaining about or getting frustrated. Okay, so I'm going to say two things to that. First of all, um that assumes that, like, publishers actually do any promotional work. I think there are plenty of, like, traditionally published authors that are like, uh, I still have to do all my own promo. And, like... And can I...
00:04:44
Speaker
and trip I have a specific example of that. Angelina M. Lopez signed with Karina, which is an offshoot of Harlequin, which is one of the big five.
00:04:55
Speaker
And she specifically said that she was expected to do the vast majority of her own marketing. So even people who have never done indie who get signed still are expected by publishers to do a ton of their own legwork.
00:05:09
Speaker
So yes. Yeah. And and actually
Benefits of Traditional Publishing Contracts
00:05:11
Speaker
ah Angelina M. Lopez is like her second trilogy is not going to be finished anytime soon because she was dropped by her publisher because her books didn't sell well enough because she was not successful at doing her own marketing, which is a huge bummer because the first two books in that were like so good.
00:05:30
Speaker
I really wanted to find out what's happening. I think the other thing to say there is she spends a lot of time online. She spends a lot of time getting herself out there. And the fact that that's still not, you know, like it's, it's a tough market.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, social media is hard right now too. So there's, I mean, there's different layers of this going on. Just, I think talking about how the models changed might help too though. So like the old way is go ahead, Erin.
00:05:54
Speaker
Well, I was going to we interrupted Holly, but oh yeah maybe be holly it is I mean, and then point number two uh, ah If you're so successful, like if you are like Ruby Dixon or Colleen Hoover or Mariana Sabata levels of successful in the indie market, then you have some business savvy. And um I assume that these authors did not sign contracts with big five publishers that did not also benefit them.
00:06:24
Speaker
Right? I mean, just like Erin was saying, like, um get it, signing with Berkeley means that Ice Planet of Barbarians is in Barnes & Noble and not just on KU. Like signing with a big publisher means that colleens hoover Colleen Hoover's book got made into a movie that then was like mired in controversy for like a million different reasons. But setting that aside, right?
00:06:47
Speaker
Like that's just like these are benefits. And um yeah, so – that That's my point number two. Like these authors are not stupid.
00:06:57
Speaker
Like they're savvy business people who are signing contracts for a reason, not because like a publisher is coming in and taking advantage of them and the work that that they already did. Like this is a mutually beneficial arrangement.
00:07:09
Speaker
Okay,
Authors Building Platforms
00:07:10
Speaker
yeah sorry, go ahead, Ingrid. No, you're good. So I think, but just to give, because if people are listening, they don't have a ton of experience, um you know, stalking what books are coming out, et cetera, and so forth.
00:07:22
Speaker
So like the old model was like what we grew up with, where you get an agent or you pitch to an an author would write something and then pitch to an agent, right? And then the agent would connect them with the publisher and the publisher would take a chance on them. And then you, you know, you, in movies, you'll see like the book tour, right?
00:07:37
Speaker
Right. and that your books and all the windows and stuff like that well um the with the arrival of digital content for starters um i i think that's kind of where it shifted but i i guess i'm not an expert um everything changed because amazon and digital content meant that authors could just directly reach um readers And also with digital so digital content and and social media, right?
00:08:04
Speaker
Authors can do their own promotion. So all of a sudden, all the stuff that ah a publisher would have held has been outsourced, which is good and bad, right? It's good. I'm just giving it from kind of the like – so that – because I guess my my take is i would hate it is I think it's more complicated than that. i think people thinking that the author is being taken advantage of. It's more complicated than that.
00:08:24
Speaker
there People thinking that the publisher is bringing so much to the author's experience. I think it's more complicated than that. But back in the day, the the contract would likely look like we're going publish this book for you.
00:08:37
Speaker
We're going to give you this advance. When you've earned out the advance, you get this much percentage on royalties. Right. They would have in there a commitment for how much they were going to promote the book. They would have a a commitment from the author on how much they were going to show up and promote the book, meaning like going to book signings or whatever.
00:08:51
Speaker
Now we don't do that as much, et cetera, and so forth. So the difference now is that, yes, I've sat in meetings where they're acquiring books. And the number one first thing that they do is to look up and see what the person's social media stats are. Mm-hmm.
00:09:08
Speaker
They want the hard numbers. How many people do they have in their audience? And they're looking for email subscription lists. That's why authors have newsletters, right? They're looking for social media followers. They're looking for all those things. Any hard number for how many people they can reach is the number one first thing that they look for first. because They're looking for for warm readership.
00:09:28
Speaker
They're looking for that author's warm readership. first Right. because Because
Promotion and Contracts in Publishing
00:09:32
Speaker
they no longer have the wiggle room for giving somebody in advance and then just hoping it earns itself out because publishing books is expensive, you know, like paper copies and all that.
00:09:42
Speaker
So they don't have the wiggle room anymore to just like hope that something works. They do comps. They look in the market. They try to figure it out. But it just it makes it almost like insurance if they know that this person has a big following somewhere.
00:09:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Now, the flip side of that is that a lot of times there are all these sneaky underhanded things that authors and publishers will do to like inflate those numbers. So it's almost meaningless, honestly, in my opinion.
00:10:07
Speaker
That's the thing. Because what they'll do is they'll, you know, buy lists from people. So they'll they'll, you know, like network with other social media people and authors and stuff. And they'll buy lists, same as any corporation would do They also buy up like a warehouse of their own books.
00:10:24
Speaker
So that all these like New York Times bestseller means nothing. It doesn't mean anything. They just have people pre-order, order, order, order so that it looks like it releases and it's the number one bestseller. So a lot of this stuff is just bull honky.
00:10:36
Speaker
But so I guess the thing is this. So what what do they offer now? So publishers are kind of taking advantage of really savvy authors because they want a safe bet.
00:10:46
Speaker
And authors are taking advantage because in my – from what I see, just because you're a savvy business person does not necessarily mean – it takes a lot of effort and capital to do that. I mean like not I highly doubt a lot of these authors are just like, you know – lolling about in their afternoons and having their minions take care of all of their business decisions and marketing and stuff. These are people who are putting in a lot of hours and and work and for very little money in the beginning to get it done. So for me, if I was an author who worked that hard, I'd be like, man, somebody else can manage my royalties and my tracking and all that stuff. Like done.
00:11:21
Speaker
Even if you have to pay a marketing person, which again, often that's part of the agreement is that the author has to pay their own like they're they say they commit that they will hire their own pr person and marketing person it's often not from the publisher usually the benefit is that they get hard sold from someone from an you know a publishing person and they say i can i have a connection with this person we can get your movie greenlit or like i can i have this connection and i can give you this it's more about and publishing his is this big five it's not big 20 it's very like um it incestuous makes it sound negative but it's like so overlapping people just going from one thing to the next so it's all about connections so I don't think nowadays my gut instinct is authors aren't paying for this because it's like super beneficial it's because of what they might be able to get out of it because of the connections and the stuff like that but I don't think I just think it's I do agree with Holly I think it is there are mutual benefits to this
00:12:16
Speaker
But it's like watching the sausage get made. That's why I'm not in publishing anymore. Yeah. wrong and And I think another side, i mean, and I guess we can say a critique of this is, is, you know, that like, if we're only doing safe bets, then like, the weird stuff doesn't get picked up.
00:12:31
Speaker
Right? Right. But on the flip side, like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, Ruby Dixon was the weird stuff. Well, exactly. Yes, exactly.
00:12:42
Speaker
And I have to agree with Holly here. i I have frequently worried because I'm like, man, but if you're only doing the stuff that's going to hit it big, then... How are we going to have innovation and creativity and all that stuff? Well, it's the auth it's on the it's no longer on the publisher to take the risk. It's on the author.
00:12:58
Speaker
It's on people at home who are sitting there thinking to themselves, I have this crazy idea for a book, like but why would I write it? Why should
Creative Risks vs Safe Bets
00:13:06
Speaker
I do it? Because what if it works? What if people like it and you put it out there and people eat it up? Ruby Dixon, if she talked to someone and was like, I have this idea for a blue alien planet where they have wieners like the rabbit vibrator.
00:13:22
Speaker
Right? Yeah. And there's like a parasite that makes you have one true love. be like, ooh, parasite's sexy. You know what I mean? But like she did it and look at her, you know? So i thought the i the pessimist in me is like, man, i hope people are like doomed. all that Think about all the creative ideas that are never going to come to light because publishers won't take a chance anymore.
00:13:47
Speaker
But then the the optimist in me says, Well, you know what the benefit is this is? It's all on us now. It's all on the creative people. And reviewers and king people who are putting energy in just because they care.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah. i As you were talking, Ingrid, I was kind of thinking of ah my one book club in particular um that is like... the neighborhood moms basically and that is they know what I read more or less but like all of their book suggestions are from like bestseller lists or similar and I'm always like I want to read something different like
00:14:32
Speaker
You know, I'm over here being like, what can I find that's not just like the other 25 thrillers that we've already read? you know And not that I love a thriller. I do enjoy a thriller. But I think that the as you were talking, i was like, yeah, it's it's on our very dialed in readership to find those nuggets and be like, hey, this one.
00:14:57
Speaker
And then you get into some of that, like, I don't know, tipping point type stuff to reference that old book, um which does, you know, you need a number of people to care about it in order to really get it going.
00:15:09
Speaker
plum But so it's it's almost like we have the opportunity to find anything and make it the next big thing. Yeah. ah oh Sorry. i like, I'm thinking of the thing, but I can't remember book and it wasn't a romance novel, but it was like some guy ah just like did a tweet thread about some book he read and how awesome it was. And it was like, like weird lit fic, right? it Right. it He was like, this book is, I, maybe it was, this is how you win the time war.
00:15:44
Speaker
um But it was like, and He went viral. And so the book went viral. And like, I, I'm pretty sure it was This Is How You Win The Time War. I'll see if I can find it. um But like, I read it.
00:15:56
Speaker
Because, because of this. And because I'm like, okay, I like weird lit fic. And like, there's like a little bit of like enemies to lovers romance stuff going in in there. And like, my husband read it. And um it's on my TBR.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah, see, you've heard of it too. because And it's because like- And my book club of moms has, there are several who have read it. Oh, see, they and and this is an epistolary novel between two people who are on opposite sides of a war between opposing groups of time travelers.
00:16:31
Speaker
Like, it's like, weird. Yeah. And um I don't know where I'm going with this, but like, yes, there is. But this one guy tweeted it. Yes. Like where you started. Yeah.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yeah.
Publishing and Art Patronage Comparison
00:16:43
Speaker
You know, and but there's there's so much luck involved in that. Although I've been thinking a lot about, you know, there's all these conversations about like funding for the arts and like especially now with like like the. um the NEA getting defunded, cetera, et cetera. But like arts have always just been funded by patrons.
00:17:06
Speaker
Right. And there's all, you know, and like, um I don't know where I'm going, but you know, like people are doing weird things and not being successful.
00:17:17
Speaker
Right. Like, like Van Gogh did weird things and was not successful in his life. Yeah. Right? um Yeah. And like Michelangelo was successful in his lot in his life and his art because he had patrons and he did art that made them happy.
00:17:35
Speaker
Right. And he maybe did art that made him happy too. I don't, I'm not an art historian. I don't know, like. a ton about Renaissance artists or the impressionist. He didn't like put little heart in the corner of all the ones that he was like, he was like, yeah, I this one. I like this one. This one made me happy. Like here, here's the part of the Sistine Chapel that I did for me. And here's the part that I did for them. Right.
00:18:00
Speaker
You know, I'm pretty sure Leonardo da Vinci was just like independently wealthy, which is another way to do art. but um Much easier. Much easier way to art and be like an eccentric weirdo.
00:18:14
Speaker
um i don't really know where I'm going with this. No, I hear what you're saying, Holly, and I agree with you. Okay, I'm glad you know where I'm going with this. I do. And I have to tell you, i have my heart is just swelling because normally i feel like I am the one who is like the – um Like, oh, honey, optimist of the group. Like, oh sweetheart.
00:18:34
Speaker
Like that. Like, bless you for being so naive. But, I mean, see the post where I went to go buy the Facebook Marketplace thing. Anyway. Point is, point is this, like, while we've been sitting here talking about it and I told you like my optimism part was like, oh my gosh, yes, just create, create. And the one thing I will say is this, right?
00:18:54
Speaker
So I hate writing negative reviews online. I hate it. Like I will do almost anything to avoid doing it because I, in my heart, I'm sitting across from the author looking into their eyes while I tell them that I don't like their book and I hate it.
00:19:09
Speaker
And I feel like up i I do feel like I am perhaps, especially when I look at social media, I'm thinking like Blue Sky Twitter, that stuff, which I don't do Twitter anymore, but you know what i mean? Like it's all negative takes, negative hot takes.
00:19:22
Speaker
And I think sometimes the reason that some of these, I just love this book go viral is because secretly we do like, we like watching people just love stuff. You know what I mean? Just be excited about it.
00:19:36
Speaker
It's just, it's irresistible. And so I guess, you know, like, I don't know, i I kind of feel like when we're talking about this, and obviously we're like putting together like, you know, themes and whatnot. But when I think about it, i'm I just think like, man, how cool that these authors are You know, I get that it feels like they're selling out.
00:19:55
Speaker
But like, if you look at it from a different lens, how cool is it that they're making choices so that they can be creative and do things that that ah excite them? Anything that lightens the load, that's cool, right? hey i don't love all of how it goes down, but I think that's a good thing. And I also feel
Encouragement for Authors
00:20:10
Speaker
like, you know.
00:20:11
Speaker
I love that there are, I mean, I'm looking at the comments on our site and about people who are engaging with us and how great it feels to watch people be like, Aaron, like who made a comment to you this the other day? And I just saw it and it lit my hole. I loved it.
00:20:26
Speaker
What was it? Oh, muttering. And Aaron does it again as I add this one to the TBB list. Right? How good does that feel? Doesn't it make you want to create more? Yeah. Well, and stuff that I'm excited about. Like I had so much fun with that book and that's why it came through in that review and it was also received, you know? And then it spreads.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. I feel like if anyone's listening from our five followers...
00:20:54
Speaker
i don't know I don't actually know how many followers we have. It could be a ton. Anyway, the point is, is that I just think that if there's any, I feel like, I hope, especially with how horrendous life is for so many people right now, just just create something.
00:21:08
Speaker
Just squeeze the joy out of something because clearly that is like how we get the cool stuff. Like blue aliens. Yeah. Or culty. Or slow burns. Or infuriating not really romances. Yeah.
00:21:23
Speaker
Right? Yeah, we don't need to talk about those. We don't need to talk about those. we'll We'll focus on the blue aliens and the and the slow burn soccer players. Yeah.
00:21:35
Speaker
I mean, I love going in and being like, oh, what? I said yesterday i was mood reading and I shared it with you guys because ah the town that we grew up in was mentioned in the book, but oh not correctly. And I was like, no, but it was really fun to be able to scroll through.
00:21:54
Speaker
this, I want to find something. Where's my Reddit mood? And I found a post that was like, this sounds interesting. And all the people in there who were like this book and then being like, oh, that sounds fun.
00:22:06
Speaker
can try that one, you know, and just being like immersed in it. Right. Just like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I have to say that I did something similar this week where I was I stumbled upon ah ah an opinion and then I stumbled upon an opposing opinion about the same author. And I was like, well, now I'm just curious because I could sense that there was something going on there.
00:22:27
Speaker
So I deep dived into it and now I have a post that I'm chewing on for it because I, you know, somebody decided to just put it out there, you know? So I don't know. Hopefully there is a little part of me that that feels worried about the new way of publishing because I feel like there is a it feels like it highlights the haves and the have nots.
00:22:49
Speaker
Right. And I don't like that. I feel like it's, you know, if you're, if you make enough money and have enough people read your book, then you too can join a big five publisher. And I just, that feels dirty to me.
00:23:00
Speaker
I feel like take a chance on somebody who's just a good the number of amazing writers who just never get themselves out there just makes me like my heart go cold, you know? um But on the other hand, you know, today i just feel like Being excited that these authors were able to reach as many people as they have, you know.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. I would love to Within comfort
Challenges and Ethics of Small Publishers
00:23:22
Speaker
zone. Yes. And you know what i would love to see? I would love to see more smaller publishers. Yeah. I mean, that's like a whole separate topic. it is. It's like the decline of the small publisher and like had how they all got bought out or...
00:23:38
Speaker
you know, like the struggles of indie publishers to like do right by themselves and by their authors and yeah like run a good business and, um you know, and we're open to small publishers also. Oh, we love We love it. um Like shout out to Space Fruit Press because they, I mean, they like only publish queer romance and they and they do a lot of shorts. They do short stories and novellas and,
00:24:07
Speaker
Like, we love to see it. So, you know, and I know they're, they're like super tiny. And I think I haven't heard anything. I think they're trying to do things ethically. I know also there's some like indie small publishers that like.
00:24:20
Speaker
are not super ethical yeah that's a whole yeah you gotta be careful yeah careful out there but all right well anyway sorry that's like going into whole different conversation let's just go all the tumble read is flowing the flowing of the tumble read it's down the road all the way and this is why we have to put timers on yes exactly do this all say our timer did go off um so let's be good this week and not go over 30 minutes like we have a couple times recently sorry That was that was my act my fault because I couldn't stop talking about that. I'm sorry. That's my bad.
00:24:53
Speaker
I'm reflecting upon it. i'm I'm reflecting upon it. Well, so
Episode Wrap-Up
00:24:57
Speaker
um I guess, is there any last takeaways or shout outs you want to holler about any particular book you've been reading this week before we sign off or just say?
00:25:07
Speaker
okay with saying so long. Until next time. Farewell. Keep it smutty, folks. I'm Finder Zane.
00:25:15
Speaker
Keep it smutty, folks. Na na na na