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Ep 33 - Sheba and Manjula Narayan share a coffee
129 Plays3 years ago
Presenting a conversation over coffee with Manjula Narayan.
Manjula is the National Books Editor at Hindustan Times. Apart from what she does as her day job is also a reader, writer, rager, rider.
More about her is on her LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:02
Speaker
I'm delighted to have you in the podcast where all stories are welcome and the masks come off. I'm Anjula.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hi. Welcome. Welcome to Soul Brews with Shiba. And I'm so delighted to have you in coffee and soul. Thank you so much for making the time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Reconnecting Post-Pandemic
00:00:28
Speaker
So you've got your cup of coffee ready with you. Yes. Yes. All right. So let's just raise a chair. It's great to know you and wonderful to reconnect after this long COVID
00:00:40
Speaker
session that we all had, but it's a pleasure to see you again. Cheers.
Visualization and Ladakh Roads
00:00:47
Speaker
So Manjula, if I ask you to just sit back a bit, sit back and hold this cup, whatever it is that you have in it in your hands and if it spiked, that's wonderful. But you can just sit back and just close your eyes and just breathe and relax.
00:01:10
Speaker
See if any image comes to your mind. You want me to talk about the image? Yes, whenever you're ready. You can open your eyes whenever you're ready and share with us what's coming to your mind. Oh, wow. What came for mind is like the roads of Ladakh, you know, like winding through the mountains and seeing like, you know, those huge glossy Himalayan crows flying next to you as, you know, you
00:01:39
Speaker
Zoom down those rules. Beautiful. It's the most beautiful thing. What does it mean for you, this visual? What does it give you? What is that sensation that comes with it?
Freedom and Fear in the Himalayas
00:01:50
Speaker
It means freedom and limitlessness and also pushing oneself to do something that you're initially very scared of doing, which is what it was.
00:02:08
Speaker
When you're riding through terrain that you're not used to, it's very scary. But when you, especially in places like Ladakh and places of great beauty, do something for you. They rejuvenate you, they make you feel
00:02:30
Speaker
And they give you ideas as well. I mean, this is as ancient as humanity, I suppose. This understanding of what nature can give you just by you being in it. Absolutely.
00:02:45
Speaker
And so when this picture came to your mind, this visual, were you actually on the bike there? Was that like one of your first trips on your motorbike up in the mountains?
Thrilling Biking Adventures
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, in Ladakh, that was this big trip that we had. Some seven girls went on bikes to girls meaning women.
00:03:13
Speaker
That's fine. We love to be girls as well. So it's funny. And yeah, I've never talked that. I mean, you know, one gets so, gets so, I don't know, embroiled in life, you know, you don't do anything that's really challenging. I mean, you know, one can write to Rajasthan and Rajasthan is also a beautiful place, you know, and you can write to places across India.
00:03:39
Speaker
I don't know if there's something worth riding in, in the mountains, in the Himalayas, you know, it's like, and even Ladakh, specifically Ladakh, because it's such, now they've made all the roads very good. And they've made that tunnel, which I don't know who would want, which rider would want to take it. It's for goods and stuff. It's like, you can't just reach lay away. It takes a little fun out of it. Absolutely. In a dark tunnel.
00:04:04
Speaker
Oh my God, what is that? And when nature is so beautiful outside, you know, it's like, yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is beautiful. And you know, every time you talk about this, you make me really yearn.
00:04:22
Speaker
to start getting out on these kind of trips again. So tell me, this brings me very nicely to the next question that I want to ask you, Manjula. You look at the choices you made and you've had some very, very interesting things that you've been doing in your life. Talk to me about it. What's this journey been like for you? What have been some of your highs, your key learnings? All of us have a point which is like a defining moment.
00:04:51
Speaker
which makes us change from one thing to another. So what has been your journey?
Conventional Life vs. Biking Challenges
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, you know, I'm actually, I don't know, I'm pretty conventional in the sense that I'm mad at about kids and you know, all that, but and a job, you know, it's not like I'm doing extra ordinary, you know, but the thing is, I found that
00:05:14
Speaker
It's so conventional and it's so bold. I mean, it's not bad, but it's what everybody does. You know what it's nice to do, but you enjoy it and the fruits of it or whatever, but there's nothing that really challenges you in the sense of taking you out of yourself and making you learn things that are new, which, you know, when you ride, I found that when I started riding motorbikes, it was that's what made me, because I'm actually quite,
00:05:43
Speaker
I realized when I started, I'm a pretty timid person. I didn't come across like that, but inside, one is always scared. But what could happen? What will people think? What will they do? What will I do when I come to this obstacle? And always thinking about the horrible things that could happen. Once you're on a bike, things just come at you. It's like solving problems as you go.
00:06:12
Speaker
So I found that very liberating experience. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me more. Because then that made me think that, Oh, okay. So even when life throws, you know, rubbish at you, you just, you kind of keep thinking, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do that because that could happen in time, which is what I tend to do. I left to myself. I tend to do that, you know, think up the problems and then
00:06:38
Speaker
I had to solve them before I get to them, you know, which means that I never do anything, you know, because you caught up in this like sort of static status, you know, I mean, you just like paralyzed, because you think, oh, these things could happen. And, you know, how to do the path, take the path of least resistance, which is not a learning field.
Connecting Through Biking
00:07:02
Speaker
Sure, sure.
00:07:03
Speaker
So then I think biking made me, I mean, of course, when I say biking, there are people who have done great things, women who like, I saw this lady I met last year when she was riding through India, you know, she's ridden all, and I follow her on Insta, I can't remember her name, but you know, she's ridden all over the world, you know, and she has a family back home somewhere in Eastern Europe, but she's ridden all over the world. Yeah, it's superb. Yeah.
00:07:32
Speaker
I mean, you find things, even socially, you think that, you know, I mean, I used to think, oh, you shouldn't, maybe you shouldn't speak to those people, these people, but once you start writing, you go out of the room, you don't care. You speak to people and you realize that, I mean, it doesn't matter if he's like, you know, middle-class, poor, rich, whatever, from a different culture. Humans, you know, you find a point of meeting, you know, somewhere in
00:08:01
Speaker
I mean, you could be an absolute stranger, but if you're, if I'm in trouble, they will help me, you know. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and, and isn't that amazing to discover that, that people are actually good. Yes. And that is so beautiful. Yeah.
00:08:18
Speaker
That's what I really, you know, I loved finding out. I mean, I never thought, you know, you're brought up in a way to think that, you know, oh, as a woman in India, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. You should speak to this person and you should be to yourself and all that. Yeah, it is true. You should be to yourself, but you should also not be. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you've got to live your life and give people an opportunity to become a part of your life, even for a short bit, isn't it? Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
And a lot of things because of the way you think, you know, the way your perceptions, it's all in your, I mean, it's a cliche to say it's all in your head, but it is how you view the world is how the world often treats you. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that is so, so right.
00:09:09
Speaker
So, okay. So this is what you, so this is what, what like kind of set you free.
Journey to Independence
00:09:14
Speaker
Was there a moment that you felt all right, that this is when I'm definitely going to start doing this? Or how did it happen for you? Oh, very slow thing. Actually, the thing is that we started riding scooters. Okay. When my children were very young, because in fact, like when they were just born, I think my younger son was just born. And I was like,
00:09:38
Speaker
I was in my in-laws place in Kerala and my niece, my husband's niece, she used to go to college on her scooter and I said, you know, I mean, and I had a lot of time, you know, when the kids were sleeping, I said, I'm bored. So she just teach me how to ride this scooter. So I was like riding around and she was teaching me and it's so easy to learn. So I kept riding around. Then when we moved to Poona from Bombay, you know, I thought, you know, I mean, like,
00:10:08
Speaker
There was a time whenever the school bus wouldn't turn up, I decided, okay, buy a scooter so I can, you know, so I don't have to wait for a taxi or waste time and they get laid for school. So I got the scooter and I would drop them. Then I started riding around Poona city on this Activa. And whenever I was riding it, you know, Poona is a lovely place. And I'd be riding the thing and I'd be thinking,
00:10:35
Speaker
I'd be thinking, you know, I wish I was in a motorbike. Why am I always peeling a boot up? I mean, I love that active art.
00:10:45
Speaker
This is riding to Bombay to meet my friends. I've done it multiple times on that silly active one riding all the way before us. I just have to come in here. You know, you do yourself a real injustice when you say, you know, you're very conventional. No, look at the choices you make. Look at the things that you've done. So you are this and that. And that's very much a part of who you are. Great. All right. Go ahead. Tell me more.
00:11:16
Speaker
So I used to do that and then I but why I was doing this constantly thinking okay this is like
00:11:21
Speaker
It's too slow and it's too small. You know, I need to like upgrade. And then we moved to Delhi.
Balancing Career and Passion
00:11:30
Speaker
And then we moved to Delhi and I got like really busy with everything, my career. So what was, what was career for you? What, what did you, I know you do. I'm a journalist. I'm a journalist. I'm the books editor at Hindustan times. Right. Okay. The national books editor at Hindustan times. I do a books page and you know,
00:11:50
Speaker
So, yeah, and I do, I actually do a podcast as well. Am I allowed to say that? Yes, absolutely. Please tell us about it so we can all follow. It's called the Books and Authors podcast. And you get it on, I mean, it's on Spotify and everywhere. I think on HD Smartcast as well. And every week I do an episode and I meet one author, you know,
00:12:19
Speaker
who's written a good book and interview them. So that's also part of my place. That's so good. And you do such a fine job of interviewing them and you meet such interesting people. And also when you talk to them, you bring out something different.
00:12:36
Speaker
in them and that's your way of interviewing I think which is I've seen one of your episodes and I just feel that it's a real skill to bring that out so fabulous to see. So did you see the you saw the video ones which I used to do pre-covid times
00:12:57
Speaker
I used to do a video instead of that. Then I decided that, you know, I don't want to get into it because it used to be like studio and a person sitting this close. Yeah. I said the video one. I saw the video one. Not your, not your. I haven't done video for a year. I guess the first time I'm appearing in a year. I graduated or I segued slowly into audio only podcast.
00:13:25
Speaker
Which frees them up, right? Yeah, yeah. So you were telling me then you moved to Delhi, then what happened? Then we moved to Delhi and you know, I was like really busy and everything and I didn't need to like, I don't know, drop kids to school. Though, you know, when I first came to Delhi and I joined Tehelka and joined Tehelka, which was still existing. Yeah, you were with Tehelka? I didn't know that. Yeah, I was with Tehelka.
00:13:53
Speaker
And so I used to ride from Gurgaon to GK to where the office was on that Activa. And people used to think I was mad. And then I said, OK, maybe the weather here isn't right. It's very suitable to going on a scooter every day and this distance to work. So I dumped it and I, you know. But then I missed riding.
00:14:22
Speaker
A few years later, you know, I'd stopped riding completely and then I got busy with other things. And then sometime I don't know what happened. And I was on a flight to the North East or something like that. I'm just remembering this right now. And there was some airline magazine which had this piece on women bikers. And they didn't say, why am I stopped? And look at these women there riding bikes. What the hell? I need to buy one.
First Motorbike Experience
00:14:51
Speaker
And yeah, I came back from that, it was a work trip, I came back, I went and I bought a bike. I bought a motorbike and then I said, even if I don't ride it to office, which I hate, you know, riding it every day kind of kills the pleasure. I don't want to make it a commuter thing. So I said, you know, so then I started riding around on this and that was my first, what was it? It wasn't a bullet or anything.
00:15:20
Speaker
one of those easy bikes, Avenger, it was an Avenger. So it was really easy to, yeah, to ride it out. And again, after a while I said, I need to upgrade. So now I've got a thunderbird. So yeah, so that's how it's been. So yeah. So while you're doing this, you are continuing to do your work in HD as the national books editor. And you also do these,
00:15:51
Speaker
Are there some, what I would really like to hear from you is some incidents or some influences that kind of made you look at life differently, apart from what you've told me. The sense of freedom, you know, you slowly moved into spaces, which it's like reclaiming oneself, right? So what has been, what have been some of the key influences, some in your life? The key influences, I mean, it would sound very strange if I said, my dog, isn't it? No, it's not, it's not.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think when I look at animals, and I think, you know, they live so instinctively, and they're so honest. I mean, I've got three dogs, okay. And one is, she's 10 years old, and she's, she's had like,
00:16:37
Speaker
Two puppies, now they're like almost 15 months old.
Lessons from a Dog
00:16:41
Speaker
So they can't call their brainy. They're not puppy puffaloes. But they still, yeah, they still dump puppies. It's like a teenager who looks vague and large, but it's like empty here. So the dogs are exactly like that. 15 month old pups who look fearsome but are silly. So yeah, so the mother dog, Kuro, who's been with me for like 10 years,
00:17:07
Speaker
You know, I said, there's no filter, right? Dogs don't have a filter. They're like, you're never going to meet a dog who says she likes you, but doesn't really like you, you know, who will, who will pretend that you're great, but, but work behind your back. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. You'll never find a dog like that is what you see is what you get. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So I found that. I mean, I never had dogs before in my life.
00:17:37
Speaker
before I had her, you know, before we adopted her. So it was a learning experience even that I mean, wow, you know, this is also a way to be, you know, why should you always have gay play games and have so many, you know, barriers with people and you know, just
00:17:54
Speaker
yourself and actually that I learned from Guru, my dog. You know that is so good and the fact that you recognize it and you see it what this beautiful animal has obviously taught you and they do teach you and you know you have to have the eyes to see to really understand what is it and you have that and that is so when you were saying that you know be funny it's not funny at all manjula it's a very
00:18:20
Speaker
embracing of life and everyone, not just human beings. So that is beautiful.
Creativity and Emily Dickinson
00:18:30
Speaker
So then tell me more, what else is, have been some of the key experiences in your life? It could be in your travel, it could be something that you bumped into, it could be something that, you know, some say it's like it becomes like a metaphor for life or you can have many metaphors for life. But what do you think yours is?
00:18:50
Speaker
Well, you know, I mean, you know, when you like, I don't know, when you read poets like, you know, Emily Dickinson, when you read about her life, you see that she didn't move much, she didn't do, I mean, outwardly, there's not much action, you know, but like she's created such great poetry out of just out of out of what out of her thought process, you know, it's emerged from
00:19:19
Speaker
I mean, she's lived, but it's not, you know, she's not gone out and conquered lands or, you know, like in the historic way, like men have been doing, going here and going there and colonizing this place or setting up a business there, you know, not like that, but still like creating things of such great beauty. So, you know, basically the idea for me was from that
00:19:46
Speaker
I thought this, you know, I mean, I read her as a student way long ago, but, and then it struck me that, you know, it's really what you feed your head and how much, you know, how deeply you think about things that real change or action can come from that, you know, it's, it's a bit, uh, abstruse and, you know, but I think that, you know, you know, something like, uh,
00:20:16
Speaker
It doesn't have to be religious like the Bhagavad Gita, you know, I don't find it, it is now people have claimed it as a very religious text. But, you know, and in these days of Indutva, it's like, everybody's waving at Rahul. But that's a very profound text on how you can, you know, how you can live your life and how you can think about things that happened to you, and how you need to maintain a sort of equanimity and, you know, a sort of calm, because
00:20:45
Speaker
You know, this constant, you can make your mark on the world. Yes, of course. But true change actually comes from
00:20:55
Speaker
thinking deeply about things and then carrying out, you know, action. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I completely resonate with what you're saying. You know, it's, it's like that it's feeding your mind. You know, it's really like what you said. There's this story right about the two wolves that live inside us and which is the one that is going to be predominant is the one that we feed. And how are we going to be, what are we feeding it with?
00:21:25
Speaker
What you reflect even on Emily Dickinson, I mean the beauty and the depth of the inner life and being able to write from that. I think that is totally true. It's so amazing. And it's also very difficult in this age because we are so dominated by social media.
Social Media and Authenticity
00:21:44
Speaker
Social media is a great thing and it's a great tool to put our work out there and to meet new people. And I've met so many people online who I would never have met.
00:21:54
Speaker
in the real world and I would consider and one learns constantly from them you know on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook you know absolute strangers and you think wow you know look at what he's doing or look at what she's managed and you know it gives you ideas for things for your own life but social media also has this very link
00:22:18
Speaker
negative side to where people are constantly trying to be popular. You know, so if they have an unpopular idea, which makes sense, or which might, which makes perfect sense, but which might make them not look like a hero, you know, they might suppress it. You know what I mean? Or like, so it's, it's, it's really, so it's in a sense of being untrue to yourself, because you even though you believe in something,
00:22:46
Speaker
you would just go with what the majority says, you know, because that would make you popular or at least it will avoid making you unpopular, you know, those sort of things, you know. Yeah. I don't know. Absolutely. No, it's a great point to it. Tell me more. Tell me more. This is very interesting to explore, particularly when you're talking about the two sides of social media. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I think great. I love social media, but I have to stop myself from going overboard.
00:23:16
Speaker
I used to be on it all the time and now I just ration it because I think that I get a lot from it but it also takes a lot and it makes you behave in ways that you might not like from yourself and getting into brawls and in the end, why would you do that? Why would you make yourself do that? I mean, I found myself doing that and I found it
00:23:43
Speaker
I didn't like myself behaving like that. Was it something you were just experimenting with and trying to see where it'll take? What was it, Manjula, that took you to that point and then you step back? Because at this point that we've got to is very interesting given, look at the boom in social media and look at what people are doing right now. So I think these kinds of discussions are very important to keep perspective and bring us into balance. Yeah, see, I mean, in the beginning or before, I don't know,
00:24:12
Speaker
one just tends to just go with the flow and you're interacting with people and then you just say things without thinking or you just react without thinking which is silly for an adult maybe because there are all sorts of people out there and all sorts of mental health issues and you don't know where people are coming from and everybody has good and bad in them so you should know what to pick
00:24:41
Speaker
You know, and if you're going to constantly react to the negative things that people put out there, then you will also be feeling yourself with negativity. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A person might be, you know, not nice, but I'm sure they have other things, sides to them. So just focus on that. Like, why should you get into brawls with them? It's just a waste of your time. Totally is a waste of energy and time.
00:25:08
Speaker
Absolutely. Politics and stuff. Everybody has different views. You can never have a world where everybody has the same views. And you know, if you're left wing, you want everybody to be left wing. If you're right wing, you want everybody to be right wing. It's not going to happen boss. Exactly. Exactly. You're probably thinking the same thing, but you have to like maybe, you know, make sure that you don't like sort of be so
00:25:37
Speaker
uh, you know, delete Ali so much and be so weak. Um, you know, so weak that you don't stand up for what you think is right. You know, like maybe, maybe, uh, exploitation and stuff like that. Actually just saying things about it on social media makes no difference. But if you're making, you know, if you're suppose you're in the media and you put that out and in, in your work, you may be, you know, some journalist who works on
00:26:04
Speaker
those issues. That makes sense. Or you contribute to issues, alleviate those sort of things, with your money, your time, volunteering time. That makes sense. But sitting there on social media and just yelling at people saying, oh, don't think that, you elitist and you this, that, you that. What? It's just people venting, you know, with the. Venting. And I don't see why they do it.
00:26:31
Speaker
I can see why they do it. Maybe they don't have much else to do. Many a time, many a time. So, okay. So, so of course, so now there's some kind of a balance you've eked out for yourself, which is, which is where you, the way that you engage with
00:26:47
Speaker
with social media and that's good. In terms of the authors and the books that you've looked, edited and worked, the authors that you worked with, are there some, are there any that kind of, you know, every time you sit back it goes like a wow, I mean this was amazing.
00:27:03
Speaker
And I know that you're on video on this one, and you may not, I don't know if it's politically appropriate for you or not. But I'm sure, I mean, if there is something that stands out, I'm sure a lot of people would respond to that same person. So is there something that... See, I won't say any contemporary writers because then that's really unsafe for me.
Indian Readership and Authentic Writing
00:27:23
Speaker
Okay, so let's go with the... I won't say things like that. But yeah, it's very safe to say that, you know,
00:27:32
Speaker
I don't know if I say things like, I mean, the old classic. It's very safe. Yeah, otherwise it doesn't. But is there anything in a book that stood out to you that was like a piece of writing that was just amazing? Or maybe a couple, I'm not saying one, maybe two, three, that kind of way. You said in the recent times that you say, no, this is definitely worth for us to, for people to go into and read.
00:27:57
Speaker
people may not be reaching into it ordinarily, but if you would recommend, or not even recommend, but you just, you know what I'm saying? You know, I mean, if you're talking about Indian, you know, writing in English, you know, there's so much happening. And it's, and what I'm like really happy about is that now at least there seems to be a leadership that that can help, you know, there seems to be a leadership, which earlier when I was growing up,
00:28:25
Speaker
It was like, you know, Indians were just writing for people outside. Now Indians are writing for us, you know, which is, which is really a great thing. You know, there's enough of a leadership for people to, I mean, maybe not, you know, maybe this, they'd still have to have a side job where, you know, a job, but still, at least the numbers are there. It's not like you have to tailor it to a Western or, you know, leadership.
00:28:51
Speaker
which often is what used to be happening. So now you're writing for Indians. So there's a certain authenticity about that. So I'm really glad that we reached that stage where we're writing travel books for ourselves, for people are writing
00:29:14
Speaker
Indians are writing travel books for other Indians. They're writing, you know, mystery detective fiction for other Indians like Chetan Bhagat's done it. And Anuja Chohan has done it. Madri Little has done it. So many people are doing it, you know, and they're doing it well. And each of them has their own specific sort of reader, you know, some, I mean, somebody who reads Chetan Bhagat
00:29:42
Speaker
but will not read these other writers. But still, there are different kinds within the space of different writers doing different things. And that's great. And there's popular writing. There's literary fiction. There's all spots. So it's not like one is always looking. Earlier, I used to feel, as a student, one is always looking to the west.
00:30:11
Speaker
linguistic background is so rich, we've got so many like native languages and all of us are bilingual. Even if some of us have lost the capacity to write because of where colonialism and you know, the baggage that's coming. You know, we've lost some of our languages in the sense of like writing. I think the one thing I hate about my husband is that he's so fluent in both English and Malayalam. And you know, like he can read
00:30:36
Speaker
And I was brought up in Bombay and I had the only other language, Indian language. Of course I speak Malayalam fluently, but I can't read and write it. And I feel that that's like, it's something that's been stolen through. It's a loss. I feel it, you know.
00:30:54
Speaker
So, when I read and write in English and I can say, oh, I think in English, which is all bullshit, I think in a lot of languages, you know, like all of us, sometimes I'm thinking in Hindi, sometimes I'm thinking in Malayalam, sometimes I'm thinking in English and sometimes I'm thinking in all three at the same time. Yes, exactly. And that's the case with all of us, you know, it's only maybe the mother tongue, the mother tongue that my mother tongue, my mother tongue that might be different, you know.
00:31:24
Speaker
Otherwise, like for most urban Indians of a certain class, at least this is the truth.
Future Aspirations
00:31:32
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That we do.
00:31:34
Speaker
We are actually very, very dexterous in the way that we think and in the languages that we use to think and then speak also. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I get what you're saying. Manjula, in terms of next steps, what's happening for you now? Where are you? What's on the cards? Where's the next biking trip? What are you up to?
00:31:56
Speaker
Biking trip. Don't get stuck on just the biking trip. I mean, what else is happening? There are summers coming and I want to like get out of the city and zoom somewhere into the mountains. So that's why I got stuck. Yeah. So is there some place you're planning to go in any case? Have you identified? I'd love to go to Spiti, you know, Spiti in the mountains or the Northeast, which I haven't done. These are nice places to go to ride in some
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah, but otherwise, you know, I need to, I need to do something. Like I need to sort of, I don't know. There are lots of plans, I guess, but yeah. I want to write more, paint more, do more work. So yeah, maybe. Is there a, is it right more in the sense of, are you looking at writing a book or are you writing a book?
00:32:55
Speaker
some other stuff. Is that something that's happening for you? Or is it still under the cards? It's still still under wraps, actually. Well, it's only I think, you know, I don't know, I've been I've been like the books editor. So, you know, I've been looking at everybody else's books, but I've never written a book myself. So I read a lot.
00:33:21
Speaker
So I was thinking like, why, why, why haven't I? So let me see something I should, I should definitely explore, you know, because it's, though, you know, for me, I find, I find the writing is the most, I mean, I do it well. I know I do it well. Yeah, it's true. Exclusiating pain in the universe. It's like pulling teeth, writing, you know? Yeah. So it's like, really, you know, like, I
00:33:51
Speaker
whether we still have them you know those people at least in Bombay when I was a kid there used to be this guy who used to come in a skirt and you know a sort of like skirt of rags with this big rope and he used to beat himself like that and he used to take money for that and his wife would be playing the drum she'd be beating it and he'd just take the rope and keep watching himself
00:34:18
Speaker
This thing, hiding is like that. Wow. Congratulations. Oh, that's so powerful. That's so powerful. Because there's the pain of, pain of giving birth to this thing, no? And the getting the right words and the right. Yeah. Yeah. And putting that feeling into expression. Yeah. It is. I'm sure when you write, you feel like, why am I getting into this? Why am I doing this?
00:34:48
Speaker
Yeah. And especially writers of fiction, which grows from their own lives. I mean, all writers kind of examine their own experience in many different ways. It might not come out as autobiographical, but still they do it. If it's really genuine writing, it comes from a place deep within yourself. I don't know. It's making yourself so vulnerable. You know what I mean? So I find that very brave.
00:35:18
Speaker
Absolutely. It's so true, so true what you just said. It is, it takes a lot of courage to do that, to bear yourself. Yeah, yeah. So in terms of any other people that you feel have been key influences on your life, and then I'm going to ask you one more question.
Father's Influence
00:35:39
Speaker
In my life, I think, you know, my father was a very key influence. He passed away when I was 18.
00:35:45
Speaker
And he was a Naval officer, I mean, you know, and so yeah, I mean, he used to read voraciously. So that kind of, yeah, he passed that down to me. And I never realized how, I mean, as a kid, you don't realize, but then, you know, I find myself thinking about him a lot now. So as I grow older, I think, Oh gosh, you know, that must have been so difficult for him. And that is he's passed away like
00:36:13
Speaker
many decades ago but still so you know that also brings you to this idea that you know people die but they don't really die because you're still living I mean in your head right you're still having conversations with them you know so it's something so there's a world that's unseen and that's that we know nothing about but clearly it exists you know like the unseen world also exists I'm not saying I'm not
Mysticism and Unseen Influences
00:36:41
Speaker
And when people have also come to this very recent detail, this idea that we tend to think of the world as only what is real and mysticism is so out of fashion. You know what I mean? But I'm beginning to think that those are the realms that we haven't explored. And they exist because it has an influence on us in the sense of how we think and how we act.
00:37:09
Speaker
I don't know. It sounds very obscure. No, Mandala. No, not at all. Not at all. In fact, I am so glad that you're bringing this up and speaking about it so easily and so naturally because it's a very, very important part of our lives that we sometimes need to cut off and do not need normal everyday conversation.
00:37:35
Speaker
And it deserves that place because, my God, do we need it. We are in spaces where we're looking for it without even wanting to acknowledge that that's what we're looking for. We don't know what our source is, and we're looking to try to get back to it, but don't have the courage to say it. I mean, there are many, many things. So I really appreciate your bringing this up. It's not obscure. It's not obscure at all. It's so important.
Authenticity vs. Popularity
00:38:05
Speaker
to bring it into mainstream conversation, yeah. So your unique gift to humankind, I believe each individual has something very unique to offer, which nobody else can, nobody else, so there's only one manjula, right? So what is it that is your gift? Your gift to this whole tapestry of our existence, you know, you are the unique thread in that, no? So what do you think you bring? I think I bring, I mean, I don't know,
00:38:33
Speaker
I don't know if somebody used to look at me and if they were actually looking to find something to learn, I would think that it's my ability to not lose myself in the pursuit of popularity. I think that's what distinguishes me from a lot of other people because everybody has to be popular. And like a lot of people, and they make it there,
00:39:02
Speaker
And they kill themselves doing that because why should you, why should you cheapen yourself like this? If you don't believe in something, just because the majority is saying it, doesn't mean you have to like say it, you know? And why, you know? And I think, yeah, I think that is one thing that is different about me is that I'm, if I look at something and I think it's bullshit, I will say it's bullshit even if everybody else is saying it's great.
00:39:33
Speaker
That's one thing for myself that I know and I'm glad I have it. That is really strong. That is really strong. And has that stood you in good stead? Yeah, it stood me in good stead. Because you believe in it and you've kind of been through it. There are no half measures around it. Should I or should I not? You just do it. Yeah, yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
That is brilliant. And I think there's a lot of people who could learn a lot from that. So seeing where you are, how you are poised in your work today, by being yourself, I think it would give a lot of hope and inspiration to people who are just starting out, similar journeys such as yours, people who are in the middle of it, wondering how to deal with this.
Learning from Diverse Experiences
00:40:17
Speaker
Is there, along with what you've just said, any other message you'd like to give them? I think
00:40:24
Speaker
I don't know, I think one should expose oneself to music, to art, to literature, to culture, and not be snobbish. And not be snobbish about it being only high culture. You should expose yourself to all sorts of... Because somebody is very poor, doesn't mean that they are... Also the thing, I remember once going into this
00:40:53
Speaker
a village in Bengal. And there was this guy who was a patachitra artist. It's a form, the patachitra form. Yes, it's beautiful. Yeah, he was an old man, he'd done all these crows, and it was a small remote village. And people were living in mud plastered huts, and they were beautiful combs, which I don't know.
00:41:16
Speaker
When I got pictures back, the guys in the design department said, this is not a job. To me, it seemed like a fantastic house, which is completely in tune with nature. It was built with that place in mind. So yeah, I was talking about this man. He wasn't educated at all. I think he was illiterate completely. But I found that he was so intelligent.
00:41:45
Speaker
He wasn't lettered, but we were having a conversation and I found that he was talking about the myths of the village and the legends of the village and about Pata Chitra and how to do it and how he'd been taught to do it and how he was going to teach others in this particular form and why it was so important to him and how he felt sad that he was dying out, things like that.
00:42:13
Speaker
And so I was thinking, you know, he's, he's not been even to school, but I said, I can learn from a person like this, you know, so that's what so I mean, and I find that you ask a lot of us, we think that if a person isn't like, isn't rich, or isn't, maybe not even rich, like, isn't an urban person, isn't, you know, isn't
00:42:42
Speaker
in the same sort of corporate race or whatever, that they are there, they're somehow beneath us. It's not true because they know many other things and many other realms of knowledge outside us, our little square that we have boxed ourselves into. So we should open ourselves to everything. And I think that is learning. I think people should do that because our lives are much richer.
00:43:10
Speaker
only thinking of people like us, you know, because all sorts of people in the world, and they're all, you know, our humanity joins us, but because they are, they have different experiences, there's much that we can learn from them. There's nobody who's useless. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:43:34
Speaker
Manjula, thank you so much for this wonderful, wonderful conversation. It's been, I've learned a lot and it's been a great, a great exchange. And thank you so much for making the time and coming on a conversation with me. It's been a nice talking to you. It always is so nice talking to you as a, you take care and thank you once again. That's a good, for this wonderful show. Bye. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye.
00:44:03
Speaker
Thank you for your time and attention and for being a part of Soul Brews with Shiva. Until next week, keep the coffee swirling.