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Ep 38 - Sheba and Kate Ng share a coffee
92 Plays3 years ago
Presenting a soul conversation over coffee with Kate, an Executive Coach, and Facilitator.
More about Kate is on her Linkedin.
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Transcript
Warm Welcome and Coffee Rituals
00:00:02
Speaker
I'm delighted to have you in the podcast where all stories are welcome and the masks come off.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi, Kate. Hi, Sheba. Welcome to Soul Brews with Sheba. I'm so delighted to have you on Coffee and Soul. Thank you so much for making the time, Kate. And thank you so much for having me, Sheba. It's a privilege and I'm absolutely just delighted to host you. Yeah, my side too. A great privilege. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have your cup of coffee ready with you? I do have my cup of coffee ready with me. Good. So I'm going to pour mine and
00:00:59
Speaker
Ah, you know, the sound always does something. It does. Yes, to life. Yes, to life. Yes, to life. Yours is a long one, I see. It is a long one, yeah. For me, it's morning. So for me, it's a short, sharp one. Welcome. It's a delight to have you here. Cheers.
00:01:30
Speaker
What would life be without coffee? Exactly. Exactly. I wonder often.
Memories and Impact of Lockdown
00:01:35
Speaker
Kate, I'm going to ask you to just hold that cup of coffee in your hands, if you don't mind, and just nestle it between your palms. Can I ask you to just relax and sit back and breathe and breathe? Just relax. That's lovely.
00:01:58
Speaker
As you relax, if there's anything that comes up for you in the form of a thought or a sound or a picture, anything that you view or hear or feel along with this warmth seeping in. Well, Shiva, you might be very surprised to hear that
00:02:28
Speaker
since I'm holding coffee, and I'm also able to get the lovely aroma of the coffee. It's making me think. It's making me think of life before lockdown.
00:02:43
Speaker
And it's making me think it's just about a year or maybe a little longer even longer since the last time I was in central London. I live a little outside London.
00:02:59
Speaker
And one of my main reasons for going to Central London was actually to buy my coffee. There's a lovely old, not sure if I'm able to advertise places on your podcast. You can do anything you want.
00:03:14
Speaker
Great, yeah, there's a wonderful place in Soho called the Algerian Coffee Shop. I don't know if it has anything to do with Algeria in its history, but it has the most lovely coffees, teas, coffee making equipment.
00:03:30
Speaker
from all over the world so it's a pleasure to go there in itself but also it evokes something that is of a previous world something that's not possible now and
00:03:47
Speaker
probably won't be possible in the same way for some time to come. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just a memory. You know, the smells, the smells have not evoked memories more than anything. And the smell of coffee, I had never thought of that until this morning. It was literally in here. Yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. But what did that place mean for you? What did it what what did it signify, Kate? The Algae Coffee Shop? It was a lovely place in itself. It was such a great place to go to and no place to sit and drink coffee there. But everyone goes and gets a little little cup while they're choosing their coffees, having a chat, having it packed up. So the experience was lovely in itself.
00:04:39
Speaker
I would make time to go deliberately there. But also it brings up how much the world has changed in the last year. And we're all doing quite different things now, very different things. Yeah.
Cultural Heritage and Diversity Awareness
00:05:00
Speaker
And just so keeping with this, what you're reflecting on, Kate, before the lockdown with
00:05:08
Speaker
going through the pandemic and the lockdown, now going forward. But a lot before that as well. It would be lovely to hear about your journey.
00:05:17
Speaker
And just your highs and lows, how life has been for you. And I'd love to hear your flow in life, with life, some of your defining moments. I'm sure my viewers would also love to hear from you. Well, I'm not sure how interesting it is, but it's always lovely to be able to
00:05:46
Speaker
speak about people's lives and their stories. And as a coach, I get to hear a lot and then sometimes not to share a lot. So very happy to very happy to share with you. So I'm sitting here now in South London on the other side of the screen, speaking to you.
00:06:11
Speaker
And do you know, I don't even know that you exist. I have no tangible proof that you exist. You could be an avatar in a computer game. I don't think you are, but it's always possible. Here we are. Life gives us these possibilities. So my story has not always been in South London. I've moved around a lot.
00:06:39
Speaker
And that's probably been a defining part of my life. I come, as I think we said before, I come from an Anglo-Indian family. And I'm super proud of that. Really super proud of that. And you have every reason to be. I have every reason to be. I'm super proud of my roots. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could cook Anglo-Indian food better. I wish I could dance better. I wish I could sing better. And I wish I could tell better jokes, but
00:07:09
Speaker
I am super proud of the Anglo Indian roots. My dad's family are from Mumbai. Mainly the boys would join what was then the Merchant Navy.
00:07:24
Speaker
And the careers were generally doctors or engineers. Many of them are engineers. That was my dad's story. So my dad was at sea, met my mom in Port City, married my mom. I was born here. And mom is from London.
00:07:49
Speaker
My mum is from the north of England. It was a big port in those days, a port called Hull. I think it still is a fairly functional port. It's all known as Port City. And I think they also did some education programs there for
00:08:12
Speaker
the sea community. So my mum and dad went there. My dad wanted to be a doctor. He couldn't be a doctor. So when he left the Navy, the next best thing, he joined the National Health Service and had a career initially in engineering and then into management from there. And he spent most of his career in there.
00:08:36
Speaker
And that's so interesting, right? Yeah. I do remember the time I first became really aware of my Anglo-Indian roots. And that was also the time that I became aware of the big themes of today around diversity, inclusion, racism, anti-racism. Because I remember at that time it was, I'm giving my age away here, it was back in the
00:09:06
Speaker
60s, 60s maybe early 70s.
00:09:09
Speaker
and at that time there was a lot of immigration and when you get immigration you get attitudes and one of the attitudes was these people, these people are coming in and taking the jobs and you know what have you and it's not very nice, it's not very nice.
Career in Languages and Cultural Intelligence
00:09:30
Speaker
I had never thought of that before but I remember one day I came home from school
00:09:36
Speaker
I was about seven years old and my mum said to me, but if anyone asks where your dad comes from, tell them you think he's from Greece or somewhere. I had no idea where Greece was and no idea where somewhere was, but I remember thinking, oh, okay, something here is different. This is why we go to my auntie's house every Sunday afternoon and play guitars and dance and so I started to then associate
00:10:02
Speaker
a lifestyle and a set of values with cultural heritage and it changed at that point, it changed at that point because I was always thinking, I was always thinking right so I don't quite feel a fit here, what do I do, where do I move to and I studied languages
00:10:27
Speaker
at school and at university. I actually studied French and Italian at university, put my French and Italian to very good use by going immediately to Japan.
00:10:38
Speaker
I graduated and I got into the then very new field called teaching English as a foreign language. It was super new. I think I was probably one of the early cohorts to start to qualify in that area. I did my
00:10:59
Speaker
certificate then a degree and then then my first master's I did in linguistics and cross-cultural stuff. So this cross-cultural stuff tell me more about it. Obviously the roots are at what you just said ascribe you ascribe them perhaps to the fact that you know different cultures are a part of your life right from the very very early on so is is that something that you see as a theme going through your life and
00:11:28
Speaker
It's very much, it's bordering on a passion. I'm not super passionate person, but it's bordering on a passion. If I had a passion, this would be it. And I got interested in it from the intellectual perspective. When I was working in Hong Kong and I was working in City University,
00:11:52
Speaker
And we had a department that was, of course, it was very multicultural, very multilingual. And I noticed that in our department, we were the Department of Languages and Communications and
00:12:07
Speaker
we were we we functioned quite well we got on with each other well and I noticed in other departments there were some tensions and disagreements unproductive disagreements and I began to think I wonder if this has got something to do with our our background
00:12:28
Speaker
And being more multilingual, multicultural, I wonder if this gives us a skill set that enables us to be more productive together. So that's where I started. Probably more of a PhD thesis than a master's thesis. So I had to narrow it down. I did have to narrow it down.
00:12:49
Speaker
but I needed a topic for my master's thesis so I went into then the then quite new cultural anthropology and social psychology around the cross-cultural stuff and it was fascinating absolutely fascinating so I was able to run a survey
00:13:12
Speaker
within my department that I was young at the time, I was young at the time so I didn't know what I was taking on, but I was able to run a survey and then come up with some stuff that did support the hypothesis that people who were coming from multicultural backgrounds and also had at their command more than one language
00:13:39
Speaker
seemed to be able to work more creatively and productively together. That was really early on, you came up with something like this. Yes. I took it into my work then. I did take it into my work. Not long after that, I was working for a service strategy consulting firm.
00:14:04
Speaker
that it was Asia based and we worked all over Asia. We had some lovely projects. For example, one was about hiring airline crews to staff a particular airline that was flying international routes.
00:14:21
Speaker
and of course in that service environment you have passengers, customers from all over the world and people have people have quite different service expectations based on the human side of it as well as the standards side of it.
00:14:41
Speaker
And we wanted to create airline crews who could really work to very high standards. We had Japan as one of our markets. So we had super high service. But also work to the heart as well, because that's why passengers would fly an airline. That's often why people are often quite loyal, even to their national airline, even if it's not very good.
00:15:10
Speaker
I speak from experience. But people are quite loyal. It's not just the points, it's the experience. So I used it. We designed a program there called Soul of Asia. We started with Heart of Asia, but then we went to Soul of Asia. Beautiful.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah we ran it for airlines, some hotel groups at that time and now when I sometimes see the training in those hotels and I still see parts of that program alive and well of course adapted. Clearly. What's happening? Yeah, alive and well. Yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
Well, that's amazing. So there's a legacy there. Obviously, it worked really well, and people have worked on it, tweaked it, and are continuing with that. It's amazing. I hadn't thought about that before I started talking to you, yeah. Great. OK, and then after that. After that, let me take a sip of coffee. After that.
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't put it down, you know. So after that, I decided that I had become quite good in all this stuff around training and process consulting, but I was really feeling, I was feeling the need for something.
00:16:34
Speaker
real and solid like an MBA. So I did that. I got a place at London Business School, which was great. And again, I was faced with writing a dissertation for my MBA thesis. And I did the same thing. I decided I would go back into that kind of area. But the tack I took on it was about learning
00:17:01
Speaker
rather than service or service delivery. So what was the relationship between culture and learning? So in my first Masters, I'd look at... Oh, I'm so sorry. That's all right. That's all right. It's not a part of life. It's all right. It's like issue, but it's actually from you. So you're disturbing me. I'm disturbing
Interpersonal and Cultural Intelligence
00:17:27
Speaker
you. I plead guilty.
00:17:32
Speaker
and WhatsApp is delivering a little bit late. Yeah, so here's an interesting thing as well. So I had, my first dissertation had taken me to the areas of the cross-cultural
00:17:47
Speaker
lenses for mapping cultures. So in those days, it was... It was for Strompenaz. It was Hampton Turner. And of course, there are many others who have entered the field now. Erin Meyers, one of my favorites. But I had worked on the frameworks. And I was wondering, so...
00:18:17
Speaker
If someone wants to develop a greater cross-cultural capability or a greater cultural intelligence, well how do you do that?
00:18:30
Speaker
And I was fortunate at that time to have at London Business School, a colleague, Chris Early, who'd been working with Sun An in Singapore on precisely this. It's how do you assess an individual for cultural intelligence? How do you develop cultural intelligence in someone?
00:18:56
Speaker
And I thought, yes, yes, we bring these two things together. And now there's actually a certification, there's a coach certification that we can do in that. It's David Livermore in the US. Gosh, I'm advertising a lot of people's products here, aren't I? But he has made it accessible to a lot of coaches. It changed a little, but made accessible. I haven't done that because I tend to work with a framework in my head.
00:19:25
Speaker
rather than via the tools. So there's a question that's coming up for me as you say this, Kate, and if you could, you know, have thought about that and tell me, is this interpersonal intelligence, would that be an important facet of cultural intelligence? In that, one of the
00:19:52
Speaker
So one of the facets of cultural intelligence would be that facet of learning to learn. Learning how to learn. And someone who has interpersonal intelligence is able to pick up signals from the environments, the quite novel environments that we find ourselves in.
00:20:15
Speaker
and figure it out. So what's going on here, and then how do I need to be in that environment. So in that sense, yes, yes, it links very much. It also links to
00:20:30
Speaker
You know, if we think about the people that we know Shiva with what we would call an interpersonal intelligence, they're probably quite good at things like empathy. They're probably quite good at mirroring.
00:20:47
Speaker
the other person and that would be the that would be the skill part of cultural intelligence. Yeah so definitely there's a link there. Okay right. The other part is motivation, the other part is motivation so
00:21:05
Speaker
some people don't feel capable or they don't feel motivated to learn. And that's fine. So one of the things that a cultural intelligence approach more broadly will ask is, okay, what are you doing here? What's your job? Are you facilitating some Zoom meetings with people from different parts of the world?
00:21:32
Speaker
What's their experience? Are they multicultural folks themselves? Is it a multinational organization you're working with? Right, the other end of the scope, which is, do you really want to, you know, how far do you want to really feel and be felt of?
00:21:50
Speaker
felt as belonging to that culture and native culture. I heard it described to me in a rather nice way, which is, do you want to be able to order local food in Spain or do you want to be Spanish? Because on the one hand, you just go for a Spanish phrasebook and on the other hand, you better go and live for four years and learn the Spanish guitar and really get into
00:22:19
Speaker
the sort of culture. So it's got a lot to do with the motivation of the person, which again will, you know, when we're learning any skills, we hit, we hit roadblocks. Yeah, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. And I see that, you know, the differentiator, as you say in
00:22:40
Speaker
I mean, and it makes a lot of sense on something that would be surface and something that would really mean getting into the skin of the, yeah. Yes, yeah. And imagine Shiba, if you really wanted to belong and to be seen as belonging, if you got it wrong,
Path to Coaching and Personal Growth
00:23:03
Speaker
you would feel it and that feeling would be okay I feel bad for a moment but hey what can I learn from this and you really push you really persevere so imagine if you're even just trying to learn a language under those circumstances you stick at it
00:23:19
Speaker
Whereas if you're not really very bothered, you might make a mistake here and there, but you might not be motivated to push through to persevere. And either way, it can be okay, but it's important that we know ourselves. Absolutely.
00:23:41
Speaker
how far we want to go and if we're learning in a class it's really important that we know I'm different and you're different to you and you're different in your motivations otherwise we tend to measure ourselves towards other people's standards and that doesn't certainly in this kind of thing that doesn't work. It's fascinating what you're saying and also you know opens doors into deeper thinking on this
00:24:07
Speaker
And I think that's required, particularly in the world that we live in today. Kate, how did coaching find you? How did you find coaching? I think we found each other. I think we found each other. And it was a life thing, Ashiva. So I'd been doing a busy job. I'd been doing a busy consulting job. This is after your MBA.
00:24:35
Speaker
This was after my MBA, so then after my MBA I joined London Business School's executive education on the consulting side, so the putting together of programs, the working with clients, the design before, so for that kind of thing. And it was quite demanding, quite a lot of travel.
00:24:53
Speaker
And it was simply at that point, I had a young child, I had elderly parents, and while my child was getting older, so were my parents, and that kind of the lifestyle was absolutely not sustainable. So I began to think, okay, and also I wasn't getting a younger myself, I have to put that in. I began to think quite practically of work that rewards wisdom,
00:25:23
Speaker
and doesn't punish age and coaching comes into that category and actually when I first trained in coaching I wasn't sure, I absolutely wasn't sure so I'm going to advertise another company now at this point. I chose a coaching course which was very much based around the idea that
00:25:48
Speaker
We, the coach, are the tool. And I looked at what their 20-day program was about. And when I looked at it, I thought, well, I'm not sure if I can do this, and I'm not sure if I want to do this, but my goodness, it's going to be fantastic personal development, whether I do anything with it or not. So I did my 20 days. I decided, yep, I can do this. And I decided, yep,
00:26:17
Speaker
I want to do this or at least make it a part of how I manage the portfolio of my ongoing life. And here we are. It's really been a journey of discovery since then. And I have been very fortunate, very blessed in that coaching has found me and clients have found me. And I've been able to interpret what I do according to client environments and client
00:26:46
Speaker
need. I can imagine what's it that you I'll firstly I just want to congratulate you on that beautiful sentence it's really left a mark on me which is something that doesn't punish age and rewards wisdom and that is equal to coaching I think that's a beautiful way to look at it it's a very powerful so I just wanted to underline that to say thank you for sharing that it's really saying a lot of things that are not really very politically correct in this podcast
00:27:15
Speaker
The bit about this podcast is you just have to be yourself, that's it. So the masks come off, yeah. I hope, I hope. Yeah, so, all right. And coaching has been an enjoyable journey for you thus far. Very much, very much. Like a lot of coaches,
00:27:44
Speaker
I learn as much from my clients as they learn from me. It's very rewarding when I find working with someone very rewarding when then they take that out to their own teams, out to their own organizations, out to their own families as well. And it's nice to feel that kind of, it's not a massive impact, but it's nice to feel the ripples.
00:28:12
Speaker
Exactly. It's the ripples, right? And that is pretty massive when it ripples out. It doesn't seem very much, but my God, what an impact it does have. So as we talk about your journey, what have been some of the key influences in your life, Kate? Are there people or moments that stand out? I think
00:28:42
Speaker
moments. So my first one was my seven-year-old self suddenly discovering that, oh, I'm Anglo-Indian, that's cool. That was another one, that was one. I think another one was my
00:29:02
Speaker
My first leadership experience, my first real leadership experience, I was young again, probably about 24 years old. And it was at the time when there was quite a massive movement of Indo-Chinese mainly Vietnamese refugees into Hong Kong. And I worked then in a UNHCR transit center.
00:29:29
Speaker
Well, we were preparing people to go off to US, UK and Australia so there was a language and there was a cross-cultural program.
00:29:44
Speaker
being able to start my career, well, not exactly start, I've been in Japan for a few years before then, but still at a young age, designing, teaching, and making, making, supporting learning in that kind of environment. It grounds you.
00:30:09
Speaker
It really grounds you. People need skills because they've got lives to rebuild. So if you've lost almost everything, you've had some gold, you've given it to someone to put you and your family on a small boat,
00:30:38
Speaker
ready for a new life you may be super educated professional you may be um you may not have education um you may speak the some of the language of the country you're going to you may not but still you need to go and you need to build you need to build a new life
00:31:04
Speaker
And so what it taught me, what it taught me is it taught me to go from the rational to the emotional in the learning. How was that journey? I was young. I was young and it was... I think it stayed with me because
00:31:31
Speaker
I know it sounds obvious now, but at that age, I think I was designing a rational program of, OK, you're going to need the skills for buying food, cooking food and eating food in this new environment. You're going to need the skills for getting a new job. But it doesn't stick unless you're starting with thinking about how the person thinks about themselves.
00:31:58
Speaker
in this situation. And this is across two languages. This is Vietnamese. I knew very little Vietnamese other than the Vietnamese language classes that we were having in the transit centre. But it taught me that for someone to learn a skill like that,
00:32:18
Speaker
And to really learn it and to really use it, you have to start with how they think about themselves. And I applied that in a new environment when we were doing the training for the airline crews as well. Because if you're delivering service to someone, it's a very personal relationship.
00:32:41
Speaker
And we all default, we actually default to how we deliver service in our homes.
00:32:49
Speaker
So someone comes in. It's very powerful. Really, I mean, you think about if someone comes into your home, you think about how you address them. Are they going to be an auntie and an uncle or are they not? Are you going to make sure they eat before they leave or are you not? Are you going to offer them something or are you going to give them something without the offer of choice? All these things are very embedded in the way we are.
00:33:19
Speaker
And if I bring you into my environment and ask you to execute a service procedure that to you doesn't feel like you're looking after these people, that's going to be very difficult for you to do. And actually, my service procedure probably won't land with the people maybe of your culture who you know much better than.
00:33:43
Speaker
I do, so let's have a conversation around what actually the guest host relationship looks like and what makes both of us most comfortable and most
00:34:01
Speaker
most well-served in that environment and then we can build, then we can build, we can flex and adapt so that you feel pride in what you give and your customer, your passenger, your guest feels care in what they receive.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And so making the experience translatable, right? Translatable into actual life and into the experience for the other person, which is, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so then this was one key influence in your life. What else?
Adaptation to Virtual Coaching Post-Pandemic
00:34:43
Speaker
Was there anything else that, or any other moments that you can think of?
00:34:48
Speaker
the pandemic. We can't escape that one, can we? We can't. I think I have, I've probably done more change in this last year of my life, the more real questioning of myself in this last year of life, more real questioning of what's possible and what's not possible in this last year of life.
00:35:12
Speaker
than I had in the, I don't know, previous 10 years altogether. And I'll give you one example of that, Shiva. I remember the first ever virtual training that I did, apart from, you know, these kinds of conversations we've been doing in coaching for some time. So, although even in the coaching days, early coaching days, do you remember coaching over at Zoom? Hi.
00:35:35
Speaker
Can you hear me? It was painful, wasn't it? All the platforms, they've really upped their game. We know how to flip from one to the other and to spot our phones, et cetera. So for you and I to have this conversation, we don't have to think about the tech. So that's obviously one difference. But I remember also in the learning to design and then learning to facilitate online.
00:36:05
Speaker
I remember again about this time last year, a client who trusted a team of us said, well, you can't come to Amsterdam, obviously, because we're locked down. So do you want to try virtual? And we said, yes. We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into, but hey, you know, we went into it and we had to learn the platform from the start. But I remember, I remember reading an article that said,
00:36:34
Speaker
Okay, when it comes to training, you can do content online, easy, but you can't do the socio-emotional online. And I thought, oh no, what have I let myself into? Because the whole of this program, it was interpersonal, it was all socio-emotional, it was very little content. So I thought, okay, is it too late to change our minds?
00:37:03
Speaker
Yeah, so let's just go for it. So what we did is we did we did some things to make it safe. So, you know, if you if you're facilitating on site with a group of people, you can take people to really the edge of their comfort zones and you can catch it if
00:37:22
Speaker
If things go further than you think, you've got the space, you can catch people, you're going to see them at lunch, you're going to see them at dinner, etc. Virtual, people just flip off their screens and you don't know what they're going into, you don't know what they've come from, you don't know what they're going into. I remember a conversation we had on that one when you had shared something as well, you know, seeing just one blank.
00:37:43
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. Yes, we did. I remember that too. Yes. And, you know, we really don't know what's what happens there. So what we did in this my first ever program is we said, OK, we'll play it safe. All the exercises we'll do, we'll make them contained so we can always predict
00:38:04
Speaker
three or four outcomes, and then we know we can contain them. So we really, really played safe. And then at the end, we thought, okay, so what do we do to wrap up the program? And you know, you know, when you're facilitating, we usually end with maybe everybody making commitments or something like that, you know, some kind of club. So we decided that for the closure, we would have everybody giving each other a virtual gift. So it was rather like, I don't know, are you familiar with a secret Santa?
00:38:34
Speaker
Yes, yes, a mystery buddy. That's right, that kind of thing. One of my colleagues was very good at understanding the dynamics with the group. So, you know, Kate would give to Shiba, she would give to Manbir, Manbir would give to Dada, Dada. So, you know, at least we were giving to people that we had had experience with. So we asked them to do that. We gave them 10 minutes to go off.
00:38:58
Speaker
it was deep lockdown, so it was literally go into your house or if you're lucky enough to have a garden, go there, bring something and that will be your gift to the next person. That's beautiful. It's a gift going forward, so to encourage them on their journey.
00:39:20
Speaker
And the gift people got for each other were amazing. The insight that they had shown, and these were people who had met each other only two dimensionally online, and they had spent, people were moving around, around in groups, but I think they had spent probably a maximum of 10 hours in the company of that person.
00:39:45
Speaker
And in that time they were able to discern the essence of that person and what to give them, what to give them as a gift going forward. It was
00:40:00
Speaker
What a wonderful creature the human being is, isn't it? I know. So the idea that you can't do socio-emotional online, and I know many people have since discovered this, this isn't a massive discovery, but many people have said the same thing, but that was a big influential moment for me.
00:40:18
Speaker
online. Yeah and it really must have moved the needle in terms of what you could offer and it would go down well and the confidence of yes it can happen. Absolutely and you know when you say that Shiba I think a lot of people have benefited from that because there was a moment when some of my clients at least I don't know about yours
00:40:42
Speaker
were quite nervous, a virtual, and almost stopped. And it was wonderful to be able to say, no, no, I've experienced this. It works. We can do that. And to offer that personal reassurance that we've done it. These were the scores. This was the feedback. It wasn't just us that were saying it was good. We had feedback to show, yes, this works. And it's been so pandemic. Let's do it anyway. And it's probably quite supportive for people
00:41:10
Speaker
Yes, exactly, exactly. It would be right, because then they can fall back on it and say, OK, let's give it a shot and let's work. Let's give it a shot. And we learn a lot and we get together in exactly in in really helpful ways. And of course, with with a pandemic, for some people, their jobs, their parts of the jobs that they can't do. So they have they do have a bit of spare time and a way of using that time than to invest in your learning. Absolutely.
00:41:40
Speaker
And Kate, just moving forward on this conversation, and it's wonderful what you've just shared, in terms for people to also understand how quickly we can adapt to a completely new environment and give people the kind of experience that kind of moves them away from feeling isolated to being connected again in another way.
00:42:05
Speaker
Is there, so just moving this forward, is there when the chips are down or things are not going really well, is there a fallback metaphor you have or an adage that you live by? Or many, maybe a few. I mean, that's whatever comes up. Yeah. The one that comes to mind often is the old, it's
00:42:31
Speaker
It's attributed to Einstein and I'm not even sure. In fact, I think it probably isn't. But it's that one about you can't solve a problem from the same level of thinking that created it. So you've got to go, is there a level deeper or a level higher? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, you have to go down or up. And I think that's very powerful. I love the way you did that Shiba, a level deeper and often
00:42:54
Speaker
sometimes you need to go sort of up into the system and think about the systemic influences. And sometimes you need to go down deep into the body and the wisdom of the body. So it's up and deep, but it's very rarely at the same level. It is very rarely at the same level that we created it because that keeps as in the same kind of cognitive. Yes, yes.
00:43:24
Speaker
And in terms of when you're looking at people, Kate, who are just starting out in their lives right now and probably a younger Kate or someone on a similar kind of a journey or people that you see, is there a message that you have for them? Is there something that you'd tell them from where you are today to say 20 years before?
00:43:53
Speaker
Well, thinking about the young people that I know, this is going to sound very much like an old person speaking to a young person, but it's a do it now message. If there's something, it's an impulse that's saying, this is what I want to do, this is what I feel called to do, this is what, do it now, do it now, don't put it off, do it now.
Youthful Impulses and Challenging Norms
00:44:21
Speaker
I think that's a very powerful case because it's so easy to say I'll do this tomorrow or is it good or is it and wait to ratify it and what I'm hearing you say is that and tell me if I'm
00:44:33
Speaker
is that don't wait to get it validated if it's a strong impulses to it. Am I correct in that understanding? Yes, I think so. Yes. And in doing things, we get some movements and then we start to start to learn. I don't want to make it sound like a very sort of action orientated kind of doing.
00:44:57
Speaker
Sometimes stand back, reflect, be patient, wait is really important. But I'm talking about this kind of hesitation.
00:45:12
Speaker
that hesitation, hesitation is probably not helpful. If you're hesitating, just just do it. If it's meant to be stopped and reflected on that, then do that. But the hesitation takes time, energy. And it's not helpful.
00:45:36
Speaker
Great. Thank you. I think that's a very strong message. And it's hugely helpful for people to kind of not just walk on two logs, but just take the leap. Is that your message for Shiva? Two logs? Something like that.
00:45:54
Speaker
I like that one. Can I have it? Please. Kate, I believe every individual, each one of us has a unique gift to offer to people, to humankind. What is yours? Something that only you do, that no one else. And it's true. It's true.
00:46:17
Speaker
I'm not sure I'm unique because the population of the world is very large. But yeah, I'm not sure I'm unique, but I think we can all be unique in the various situations that we find ourselves in that we that we show up in. And so why I
00:46:44
Speaker
I find it quite hard to take life very, very seriously. Thank God for that. And I've got a strong streak of rebellion. So I like to challenge situations when they don't make sense.
00:47:06
Speaker
And that's a strength. That's a real strength. And is that something that you find that kind of influences the outcome because people haven't looked at it in a particular manner? And when you bring that up, it probably does a little bit of disruption, which is required. Do you see that happening? It's often voicing things that people are thinking.
00:47:29
Speaker
but for some reason, you know, people have lives to take care of as well. People have their mortgages to pay, people have their reputations to take care of, and sometimes we don't say stuff. So it's quite nice when someone who's a bit older just comes and says it. So it's often voicing something that's in their own. Yeah. Yeah. And that is a gift. That is a real gift to be able to do that.
00:47:59
Speaker
Everybody kind of breathes after that to say, oh my God, thank God. I didn't say it's, she did, but it's out there. Is there anything else you'd like to say, Kate?
Conclusion: Embrace Authenticity
00:48:12
Speaker
What else? Thank you. Thank you very much, Shiba. It's not often we have the opportunity to just to chat over coffee. I've noticed you haven't been drinking your coffee, so I hope it hasn't gone cold.
00:48:28
Speaker
I've been drinking some off and on. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and for the openness, Kate, and also for reflecting on your life and how it's been and particularly all the things you brought about.
00:48:47
Speaker
I hope you continue to voice out the things that people don't find it easy to voice and to and therefore make it easier for all of us to walk a different path. And thank you so much for making the time. It's been an absolute delight to speak with you. Thank you so much for having me. The pleasure is mine and it should be me thanking you for.
00:49:07
Speaker
your time. And I hope you will continue with this podcast and speaking to your fantastic guests. I love to listen. It's a delight. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. And you take care. Bye. Thank you for your time and attention and for being a part of Soul Brews with Shiva. Until next week,
00:49:37
Speaker
Keep the coffee swirling.