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Ep. 29: What grooming looks like, and how to cope afterwards, with Emma Cantrell image

Ep. 29: What grooming looks like, and how to cope afterwards, with Emma Cantrell

S2 E29 · Teenage Kicks Podcast
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347 Plays3 years ago

*Trigger warning - episode contains references to sexual abuse.

Has your teenager been groomed? Or are you a young person experiencing grooming? In this episode Emma Cantrell talks about her experience of grooming at the age of 12 over a number of years.

What does grooming mean?

The NSPCC defines grooming as follows:

  • Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked. Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race.

What is grooming?

  • Emma explains how grooming happened to her, and how it progressed to sexual abuse. Listen to the episode to hear how easily it can happen.

What is online grooming and should parents be worried?

Online grooming can be of great concern to parents, because it's often easier for a groomer's behaviour to go unnoticed. However it's important to remember that grooming happens in all kinds of situations, not just in an online arena.

If you're worried about screen time or social media apps, this episode with digital parenting coach Elizabeth is reassuring.

What are the signs of grooming?

As a parent it's natural to worry when your child begins a relationship that could lead to sexual activity, but sometimes it's the less obvious connections that need to be examined.

So how can parents spot the warning signs of grooming? Here are some of the signs of grooming behaviour you might like to keep in mind:

  • being secretive about how they're spending their time, both online and offline
  • having an older boyfriend or girlfriend
  • suddenly having more money than usual, or new things like clothes and mobile phones that they can't or won't explain
  • drinking or taking drugs
  • spending more or less time online or on their devices.

What are the long term effects of grooming?

Emma explains in the episode how the long term effects of grooming affected her through her adult life. Listen to hear how it impacted her at university and beyond, including her development of an eating disorder, as well as issues with self-esteem.

Where to find help if you have experienced grooming

  • The NSPCC has a really good page on grooming
  • There's also a great page on Childline UK for questions children might have about what

Who is Emma Cantrell? 

Emma Cantrell is a charity founder and CEO, accidental runner and passionate Do Gooder. She has raised over £3m for small charities and can be found talking passionately about poverty, politics and her steadfast belief in the fundamental good in people to whoever will listen. She lives in Berkshire with her two children, Joni and Wilbur. 

You can find out more about Emma here:

More teenage parenting tips:

There are lots more episodes of the Teenage Kicks 

Recommended
Transcript

Introduction to Teenage Kicks Podcast

00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who went through something difficult as a teenager but has come out the other side in a really good place and has a perspective to offer to families who might be dealing with similar.

Guest Introduction: Emma Cantrell

00:00:24
Speaker
This week I'm incredibly excited to be talking to Emma Cantrell. Emma is a charity founder and CEO, accidental runner, and a passionate do-gooder. By her own words, I'm going to ask her to tell us about that later.
00:00:41
Speaker
Emma has raised over £3 million for small charities and can be found talking passionately about poverty, politics and her steadfast belief in the fundamental good in people to whoever will listen. She lives in Berkshire with her two children, Joni and Wilbur.

Trigger Warning: Difficult Topics

00:01:00
Speaker
I need to start with a trigger warning because Emma's going to talk to us about some very difficult experiences she had as a teenager with sexual abuse. The crazy thing which took me a long time to come to terms with was that I felt really guilty. So I felt really like I'd done something really wrong. Emma, welcome to the podcast. I am so thrilled that you're willing to talk to us about such a difficult subject.
00:01:27
Speaker
Thank you. It's my absolute pleasure to talk to you. I'm really, really pleased to be here. Well, I'm going to start with do-gooder. I know what you mean by that because I follow you on Instagram and you should follow Emma on Instagram and we'll get Emma to give us all her handles at the end of the recording and in the show notes so you can go for her right now if you want to. But please, Emma, explain for listeners what you mean by being a do-gooder.

Reclaiming 'Do-Gooder' as Positivity

00:01:57
Speaker
Absolutely, so it's actually something I was called in a derogatory term by someone a few years ago, really because I throughout my whole life and certainly since I left university just wanted to do good in a very kind of miss world, save the universe type way and it's so often seen as weakness or something that can be looked down upon and actually
00:02:27
Speaker
I can't see it as anything apart from a positive, you know, doing good things, being positive, being a positive influence in the world, you know, helping people. So really my aim is to reclaim that term as a real positive thing that can be celebrated and, you know, just that people can say, yeah, I'm a do-gooder, brilliant. And it's, you know, it's certainly not a negative.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, as you were talking then, I was just about to say, I love that you're going to reclaim that. But that's exactly it, isn't it? Because what's wrong with doing good? I'd love to know where that derogatory meaning came from. I suppose it's people who
00:03:08
Speaker
are seen as a bit busy body but that's you know we oh gosh I don't want to talk about myself I want to talk about you but I do just need to mention I've just literally come back from caring for my mum who is really poorly she's 89 living by herself and without so-called do-gooders I don't know how we would cope as a family she lives two hours away and she needs
00:03:33
Speaker
the neighbours and friends and people from her church who take care of her and set her up to live her life. She has carers as well, but we need two gooders, right? Absolutely. Imagine if all those people decided to just selfishly take care of themselves and no one else. The world would be a really sad place and actually
00:03:51
Speaker
And that's something I've noticed in this last year during this pandemic is, you know, people really, really want to do good things for other people. And, you know, it brings you joy. It brings you personal joy and fulfillment. And I think the more people can realize that, the more good will be done.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I couldn't agree more. I was listening to somebody talk about hope the other day and how hope is something that is innate in all of us if we can find it.

Emma's Personal Story of Abuse

00:04:21
Speaker
And I think that's the upside of this pandemic and lockdown. I feel so hopeful watching people do good things for others that they previously might not have done and feeling, working up the confidence. And I feel really bad, guilty saying that because
00:04:41
Speaker
I shouldn't have to work up the confidence to knock on my neighbour's door who lives alone and is elderly and say, look, can I shop for you? Do you need anything? Would you like me to bring you a Christmas lunch? Which was one of the things that was going on around here. People were offering an extra Christmas lunch for people who are on their own.
00:04:57
Speaker
And yet we feel so reticent and nervous about intruding as we see it, I think, on other people's lives. Exactly. It's a real kind of very British thing of being very private and having your fence and your locks on your doors and everything. But actually, I think
00:05:14
Speaker
I think it does take a bit of courage, absolutely.

Childhood in Windsor and Church Influence

00:05:17
Speaker
But as soon as you've broken down that initial barrier, you know, you very rarely come across someone who's going to slam the door in your face. And you know, when you do, I mean, I do believe the best in people very much to a never ending fault, you know, but actually, you've got to think what has happened to those people in their lives to make them so angry and bitter, you know,
00:05:40
Speaker
Oh my goodness, we are on the same page, Emma, totally with this. When I see terrible news stories about people who've done terrible things. Of course I feel horrified and disgusted by them, but I do go back to
00:05:58
Speaker
that person wasn't born as a baby who was evil exactly what has happened yeah so with that in mind i'm fascinated to hear your story and i'm just going to dive in um can we just start as i do with all of my guests at the really beginning when you were little what your life was like growing up
00:06:19
Speaker
Absolutely, so I have two brothers, one older and one younger, so I'm a middle child. I lived with my parents in Windsor, really lovely town, very normal upbringing. My dad was a policeman. My mum was a stay-at-home mum until she trained as a midwife kind of a bit later in life. She qualifies as a midwife when she turned 40, which I'm exceptionally proud of.
00:06:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing. She's an absolute powerhouse. It's amazing.
00:06:53
Speaker
But my dad left the police force when I was six and he went to work for a church. So he got a job. My parents both had kind of religious experiences I think around the time I was born and started going to kind of evangelical church. And my dad started working for the church when I was about six. So my childhood was, you know, fairly, very, very normal apart from
00:07:21
Speaker
I was part of this church environment which looking back now I can see was incredibly toxic and damaging and I think it took me probably a decade to
00:07:34
Speaker
reverse the damage from that once I began to accept it and face it later on but in terms of my childhood it was very happy you know we didn't have much but my parents you know made the best of what we had and we you know we did all kind of normal childhood things I did pretty well at school you know it was it was very very normal very normal childhood from the outside I think I was certainly the type of teenager who you would look at and think
00:08:03
Speaker
I was successful and, you know, I did really well in exams and I was head girl at school and on the netball team and all of those things, you know, it was just, I was, I ticked the boxes. So yeah, it was, I think from the outside it would appear very normal. And in a lot of ways it was, you know, absolutely happy, happy childhood apart from things that happened to me that I didn't, you know, no one knew about.
00:08:32
Speaker
Isn't it often the way though, you think that the achiever, the one who's doing all the right things, who looks perfect on paper, we don't need to worry about that person.
00:08:43
Speaker
they get overlooked a little bit because you think they're okay. You go to the ones that look like they're more in trouble on the outside. I think that's exactly it. And I think I was always, I was one of those children and my daughter's the same who was very competent. So, you know, I could cook a roast dinner by the time I was 10 years old, you know, I was making cups of tea for my parents and I could do, you know, I was very good at getting on and doing things. And I think what that masked was,
00:09:13
Speaker
that emotionally I wasn't as mature as I was you know physically I looked a lot older than I was from a very young age and then practically I could do lots of things and I think I came across as very much sorted whereas actually emotionally I definitely wasn't and I think that's you know and certainly with my own daughter that's something I
00:09:36
Speaker
I'll probably completely over egg it and take her the other way, you know, because I'm so conscious of the fact that, you know, whilst someone can appear to be coping and competent on the inside, things can be very, very different. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:52
Speaker
I've got a daughter who's very much the same.

Details of Abuse and Church's Role

00:09:54
Speaker
I've said to someone just recently, I think she's 16 and I've said, do you know what? She could leave home tomorrow and she'd be absolutely fine. And practically she really would, but I don't know. I think she's okay, but I don't know. What I do know is that things stress her out way more than I imagined. Cause when the stress is removed, so a simple one like exam stress that we've just recently had, she's a different person. Yeah.
00:10:19
Speaker
She's a lovely, warm, affectionate person. When she's stressed, she's prickly, like Tino just can be, and doesn't want me anywhere near her. And so, yeah, oh gosh, all right then. So I'm thinking the abuse, and I don't know this story for anyone that's listening, so I'm discovering it for the first time as well.
00:10:43
Speaker
The abuse was something to do with the church, right? Well, yes. So I think the church environment harbored it. So, I mean, I can tell you what happened. Tell me how it began. What's your first memory of it?
00:11:02
Speaker
I was, I think, as I just said, I was quite mature for my age. I was quite, I looked older than I was. So I think when I was 11 or 12, I probably looked 15 or 16, you know, developed early, all of those things. And I carried myself in that way as well. And I, you know, I think in a kind of
00:11:29
Speaker
it was kind of a big evangelical church and in that environment you've got a lot of interactions with lots of people of all different ages and what happened was my dad was in charge of all the kind of young people, all the youth work so often me and my older brother was in that age group but me and my younger brother would be taken along to things just because there was no childcare so we would just be kind of sitting in the corner with a colouring book or whatever
00:11:58
Speaker
So I was exposed to a lot of environments that weren't age appropriate really and whilst it you know whilst it's a church environment it was still that doesn't make it immune from being just an age inappropriate environment to be in and you know my parents were very very busy as I said my mum was working kind of shifts in the hospital and my dad's job
00:12:25
Speaker
I think any job like that, which is quite pastoral can be all consuming. So I was often left my own devices and being a church environment, which should be, you know, a good church environment should be trusting and it should be a family and you should be able to leave your children in the care of other families. And what happened was I would often be left in the care of another family as a specific family.
00:12:53
Speaker
And that's where things started going wrong for me. Right. I get that because your parents must have felt safe that you were being taken care of by like-minded people. Absolutely. And it's, you know, I can imagine feeling exactly the same in terms of my children. You know, everyone leaves their children with friends and family. It's absolutely a normal thing to do.
00:13:23
Speaker
So I spent a lot of time with this particular family and they had an older son who I think it's not too extreme to look back now and say that I was then groomed for a period of time.
00:13:44
Speaker
And I don't think I knew what was going, I didn't know, I didn't think, I did not know what was going on at the time. So I was very young and things were happening that I had no idea were not normal. Emma, can you describe any of the grooming? So there was a lot of
00:14:07
Speaker
I think it's so subtle. So it started off with just a lot of one-on-one time or in a small group of kind of with older people and that became one-on-one time with this particular man. I've gone through phases in therapy of referring man boy. I don't know where you draw the line but
00:14:31
Speaker
with this person and it was very much... Sorry to interrupt you but how old was he at the time and how old were you? So I was 12 and he was... I was kind of 11, 12, 13 and he was then 16, 17, 18. So certainly in terms of the law, what he did was very much illegal. Yeah.
00:14:56
Speaker
Um, so, but again, it's really difficult because I, you know, I think a lot of the guilt that I have, that I felt before I processed all of this was that I appeared older, I looked older, you know, was I asking for it? Did I?
00:15:13
Speaker
Where was the consent? Did I ask for this to happen? All of those things. Because actually, when you are groomed in that way, it does feel nice because you're getting attention. That's how grooming happens, is that you're getting attention.
00:15:31
Speaker
you feel things that you don't, you can't, well, I certainly felt things that I couldn't understand. So I liked the attack, who doesn't, you know, it's nice to get attention from people. And it certainly as a vulnerable, as a vulnerable, very young child, you know, at age 12,
00:15:49
Speaker
for someone to show you that attention and say nice things about you and make you feel special, it makes you feel things that I couldn't process. So I would say it was very, very subtle, but there was a lot of one-on-one time spent, a lot of time in bedrooms, out for walks, all of those things.
00:16:18
Speaker
that were just not appropriate and hidden actually looking back now it was so hidden it was certainly it was certainly my parents wouldn't have had a clue what was going on because as far as they were concerned it was a family home but I noticed I realized now that there were lots of
00:16:42
Speaker
situations engineered where we would be alone. And then he started appearing on my walk home from school, you know, just happening to be there in an alleyway or, you know, around a corner. And as a 12, 13 year old, I don't think I really knew what to make of that. I think I probably thought it was quite nice or how exciting, you know, a boy wants to meet me.
00:17:10
Speaker
an older boy yeah quite exactly you know and then things began to get physical and I then I can really truly remember not knowing what was going on just you know things happening that I mean I had no I didn't know anything really about anything sexual at that age you know I think back then in the kind of
00:17:35
Speaker
90s you were taught in school the mechanics of how babies were made but certainly nothing about I still cringe yeah about look because I learned it in school from a very embarrassed science teacher my parents and I couldn't look at my dad ever again totally I was so shocked
00:17:56
Speaker
And my parents hadn't had any conversations with me about relationships or sex or anything. And, you know, one of the worst things, which I think when I, in the last probably 10 years told my mum that when she eventually got round to sitting me down and talking to me about
00:18:15
Speaker
sex and relationships and I remember she kind of tried to tell me um what she was telling me that you know sometimes sexual things happen and it's because it's enjoyable and you know people don't just do it to make babies and I can remember just thinking well I know things happen it's not enjoyable
00:18:38
Speaker
But I know, you know, and I remember thinking like, oh, mum, you've got no idea. Like, of course I know about

Reactions and Lack of Consequences

00:18:45
Speaker
this. And I can remember thinking like, it's a bit of an awkward conversation, I think, even when you're a midwife. And I remember feeling sad for her that she was having to talk me through this when I knew. Yeah. Yeah. In your mind. But I couldn't tell her.
00:19:05
Speaker
It got physical in terms of touching and that kind of thing. And then there was one incident where it got as bad as you can imagine. I don't want to be graphic, but the worst thing you can think of happened. And it was, I mean, it was just really, really awful.
00:19:32
Speaker
And then I kind of, I was aware at that point that it wasn't right. And actually, I think though, the crazy thing which took me a long time to come to terms with was that I felt really guilty.
00:19:49
Speaker
So I felt really, like I'd done something really wrong. So by allowing that to happen or by taking part in it, even though I certainly did not take part in it in the way I know you can take part in that kind of thing now, it was a, you know, I felt really bad. So I went and told an adult about it.
00:20:11
Speaker
And that's where the real kind of, to be honest, where the real damage was done because I thought I could trust the person I went to to tell about it in the church. And I told them, and it was, well, I was made to feel like I had done, I was certainly made, I think, I know I made it clear that there wasn't consent.
00:20:38
Speaker
And I was still made to feel like a guilty party. Like I had, you know, let myself down. I had let God down, whatever it, you know, all of those religious things. And I, you know, I had to kind of seek forgiveness for what I had done.
00:20:56
Speaker
And the person who did it to me, there was no repercussions. He was not spoken to, nothing, absolutely nothing. And that's the thing that probably has taken me the longest to deal with and get over. And it was just hidden.
00:21:26
Speaker
And what is, you know, having had, I stopped going to church at that point and, you know, it was awful. It was a terrible situation for my parents because they, my parents like love me and supported me, but they had to try and explain why their daughter was now suddenly this awful person who didn't go to church anymore. And so had you told your parents at this point?
00:21:55
Speaker
No, I hadn't explicitly told my parents, so I had alluded to it that I didn't want to go to that person's house anymore and I hadn't told them at all.
00:22:13
Speaker
I my mum knew I think I think my mum knew that things had been going on but I think she thought I was just like in love with with an older boy yeah totally had a crush and maybe something had happened you know like happens with teenagers and I hadn't I couldn't I didn't feel I could tell them and yeah I've got
00:22:37
Speaker
I've got so many goosebumps going through all of that conversation that you told someone you thought would be able to do something and didn't. Had you told your parents exactly what had happened?
00:22:54
Speaker
I hadn't, at the time I didn't tell them exactly what had happened. I felt that I had told them enough. And I think actually I had told them enough because they were very protective of me. So it was the church environment had become quite toxic by this point. It had gone past kind of being what I see now. I mean, I see lots of, I've still got loads and loads of friends who go to church and are really active in their church communities, all sorts of churches across the spectrum of
00:23:23
Speaker
all different types and I can see the healthy ones but this has got to an unhealthy kind of quite toxic evangelical state within the church and my parents absolutely backed me in not wanting to be a part of that even though really my dad got quite a lot of stick for it you know his daughter was off the rails etc etc
00:23:51
Speaker
yeah it makes me laugh now because I've dealt with it but it was hard at the time and I think so I think I had told them enough for them to want to protect me from the environment but I know now having had conversations with my mum in the last few years that I hadn't told her everything and you know she's had to deal with a lot of
00:24:21
Speaker
anger and pain associated with it obviously because and I think as a mum now I can I can't you know I can't imagine
00:24:29
Speaker
thinking about my daughter going through something and not being able to tell me about it and keeping that secret and, you know,

Long-term Effects of Guilt and Shame

00:24:37
Speaker
and me not knowing. Well that's traumatising for her as well. Yeah, totally, totally. You feel, you always feel, you feel your own pain and you feel your child's pain for them as well as watching it and trying to deal with it externally, don't you? Absolutely, yeah. So to know, to come across that information
00:24:53
Speaker
further down the line and wonder if there's more you could have done. It must be a horrible feeling for her. Absolutely. Okay but this is about you. So although you know I will ask you later to tell me what you would advise parents because it's parents who listen to this podcast most of the time and I
00:25:18
Speaker
And I know of parents who have dealt with something and are dealing with something similar. It's more common than I think we imagine. And that's why I wanted to talk to you so much about this and I know that you are.
00:25:35
Speaker
outspoken about it and want people to be able to talk about it because that's half the problem. That's absolutely evidenced in your story that you couldn't talk to the people who could have done something about it as openly as you might have wanted to at the time.
00:25:54
Speaker
Were you trying to protect them, do you think? Definitely, definitely. And the fact that it was, you know, another, it was the child of another quite influential family in the church and, you know, that it would, if it became public, I knew there would be repercussions. So I think there was an element of that, but also there was, I felt a huge amount of guilt and shame
00:26:21
Speaker
crushing levels of guilt and shame and I think that is
00:26:28
Speaker
And that was then, I can see now how that outplayed itself in my behaviour as I went through my teenage years, to things I still have to deal with now, you know, behaviours. So for example, one thing that happened is that I started secretly eating. So there's something numbing about, you know,
00:26:52
Speaker
caning a load of chocolate as we all know but I would yeah I would so I would I would you know get some I would get my pocket money or I would find a few pounds around the house or something and on my way home from school I can remember I would buy like a multi-pack of chocolate and I would hide that in my bedroom and then as soon as I started having any feelings I would you know eat it's just binge eating I mean it is and I've and I actually only managed to overcome that
00:27:22
Speaker
about four years ago, where I really faced that I felt like that was the kind of final, the final thing to break, which was a kind of a result of that experience. And, you know, I, I think I'm probably hypersensitive to
00:27:45
Speaker
Those why why those type of behaviors occur now But I mean my parents knew that was happening and I think they probably just thought I was greedy I think you know, I think there wasn't any awareness in that there was so much less awareness back then, you know in the 90s about Things like eating disorders or you know any emotional behavior yeah, and it was just things were just seen as the behavior and not as the
00:28:13
Speaker
as a symptom of a deeper problem. Yeah. Well, and we do it today, even now, we write behaviours off as, well, she's just a teenager. Yeah. That's what teenagers do. And there's an assumption that they will move on from that, get over it, become healthier or not...
00:28:33
Speaker
self-harm, things like that. I know that I've got an amazing podcast episode which I'll link to with A Lady Who's Self-Harmed as a Teenager and I know that things like that are probably a bigger red flag for parents.
00:28:53
Speaker
But still, as a mum of a teenager, your deep feeling is that this is just acting out, it's just a phase, that just a phase thing. And often it's true because we've said that about our kids just to get us through the stage that they're going to. It's just a phase, he will move on, you'll have another phase, that will change too. And so much of it is probably true.
00:29:21
Speaker
that it's really easy to write it off. Yeah, and I think when life is really busy and, you know, there's a lot going on, I think it's probably quite easy to try and ignore things that are happening, you know, and I think I don't blame my parents for not noticing or, you know, not engaging in a way that I wish they had. It's just, I mean, it just is what it is, it's what happened, you know, and that was
00:29:48
Speaker
it that certainly the the eating thing was was massively as I mean it was a direct result of what happened to me and you know and then I was a bit wild I would you know go out drinking a lot once I was old enough or you know 16 17 and I had boyfriends but I never so I think you know relationships
00:30:13
Speaker
a work very difficult for me. I had boyfriends, I never, but it was either, so when I had a boyfriend, it was like, this is it, this is the person I'm gonna marry and spend the rest of my life with every single time I had a boyfriend, which is intense. And I think all of that was, you know, part of not being able to process what had happened and, you know, and coupled with kind of the religious side of it of, well, if you've done that, you know,
00:30:42
Speaker
it means something in a religious context. So as you're describing that, because I was very similar actually, and I've always thought every relationship I had, there was almost now looking back a sense of needing to be rescued from where I was. And with me, it was just over controlling parents and I wanted my life to move on and be different. And I mean, looking back, I can't believe I'm saying that.
00:31:11
Speaker
As a woman in today's climate, I was so not feminist at all, but in my teenage head, I'm sure that's what was going on. Absolutely. For my life as it was, to stop and for my real life to start. And that person was always a big part of that. Yeah. And just you talking about the guilt and the church attitude to it.
00:31:36
Speaker
Were you thinking, well, I can I can have sex if I'm married to this person and I love him. Yes, different. Absolutely. So part of the I mean, there were some really, really small, tiny things. So this person who abused me would talk a lot about all the other people he fancied.
00:31:58
Speaker
and it was like I was just available. So I think I grew up with this feeling of absolutely never being good enough, you know, and I would never be. But if I got in a relationship with someone and they married me,
00:32:11
Speaker
Well, then that makes me good enough. That makes me worthy. Exactly. And I mean, what a load of rubbish because from the outset, what a load of rubbish. I am enough. But we didn't know that back then. It was a different era. I mean, I was a teenager in the 80s, so really different era, but we didn't know that. And you don't know that as a teenager. And this is the problem with,
00:32:40
Speaker
I mean I love social media and I think it's a good thing for teenagers. I know I'm a bit controversial but the issues with social media sometimes is girls do feel like they are not enough and need to be more in order to be validated. It's really common and really normal even pre-social media clearly that was what was going on with us it's really common. Without a doubt and I think you know that is if I have one key message for my daughter it is that you are enough
00:33:11
Speaker
You know, absolutely there's, and I remember that, you know, my dad used to say to me all the time.
00:33:17
Speaker
There's nothing you can do that will make me love you more or less. There's just nothing. And that was so freeing. My parents were very supportive of me in general. I mean, I didn't believe him, but that's the other. Oh my God, Emma, we need to dig to the bottom of this. We need conversations on this as well, because I tell my daughter all the time how proud she makes me.
00:33:45
Speaker
how much I love her, how beautiful she is. I know I'm not supposed to say she's beautiful, but everything that she does, when she doesn't maybe get something right or get a top grade, I'm just so proud of how you applied yourself, how you work for the things you want, how kind you are, how loyal you are, she's loyal. And I do that all the time. And she will always say, yeah, but you have to say that, you're my mum.
00:34:13
Speaker
Does not believe me. And I bet it's the same for all her friends as well. I bet all the kids out there who are being told by their mums and dads how amazing they are don't believe them. How do we fix that? I don't know. I don't know how you do, but I think it does stick somewhere in their psyche. I think it does. You know, it must do. I think it must be doing something in the brain too, I hope. Well, as you say, it was freeing to hear it from your dad. So maybe, yeah, maybe that's enough.
00:34:40
Speaker
I think it's really hard. I think that whole, you know, self-esteem and worth worthiness is a, you know, teenagers really struggle with that at the best of times. And, you know, if if you come across a teenager who's been through what I went through,
00:34:57
Speaker
I mean my self-esteem and my sense of worth was just just non-existent and it's I think I you know I think what surprises people when I say that is if I then reeled off all the things I achieved as a teenager you would think I was flipping skipping through absolutely happy and feeling great about myself but it was you know it there was a monumental deep
00:35:24
Speaker
deep down effect and yeah, I think it took me a long time to get over. Yeah, I was going to then move on to how you started that process. Tell us when you started to address
00:35:41
Speaker
what you were feeling and to know that what you were feeling was not right. So it actually took me until my late 20s or perhaps even my early 30s, I mean I'm only 35 now so I'm probably mid 30s now. It probably took me six or seven years ago to admit to myself that I wasn't
00:36:07
Speaker
part of what happened. So I obviously was part of it. It wasn't my doing. I didn't give consent. It was abusive. It would be classed as a sexual assault that would be a criminal offence. And I think that was the very beginning of me accepting what had happened.
00:36:34
Speaker
And when I kind of, it's weird, I don't know, I think how traumatic, I think how your brain processes traumatic experiences, or from my experience is that it was somewhere in my brain. I knew that something terrible had happened, but it wasn't until it really came into the, until I could just, somehow there was some brain space to accept and begin to process
00:37:02
Speaker
really the reality of what had happened and I just realised I had to get help so I saw a therapist, a really interesting therapist. I've had over the years, I've had lots of therapy so when I was 19
00:37:19
Speaker
I was at university and I really, really wasn't coping. And I didn't want to be alive anymore.

Therapy and Healing Journey

00:37:26
Speaker
That felt like the only answer was to end everything. And I had some CBT at that point, which was really, really great. And it steadied me and got me over that really dark period. And I didn't feel like that again for a long time.
00:37:48
Speaker
and it kind of helped me process some other things that had been going on but we didn't touch on what had happened as a teenager. I'd had some, I had some bereavements and just generally feeling like I couldn't cope and that helped with that but it wasn't until I was probably
00:38:07
Speaker
five or six years ago that I saw this that well I started I started processing it and it was when I actually started trying to address the eating problems that I had so throughout you know up until I was 31 I would binge eat anything I could get my hands on really and I began to deal with that because I was I mean
00:38:31
Speaker
you think that telling your daughter's beautiful isn't feminist I hated how I looked and I wanted to lose weight so I had to stop binge eating and in order to stop binge eating I had to sit with my feelings and not mask them yes so were you in your mind were you seeking therapy for an eating problem? yeah yeah absolutely not to address sexual abuse in your teenager no no exactly so I had to sit with these feelings
00:39:00
Speaker
And I saw this therapist who does a mixture of kind of hypnotherapy and NLP, neuro-linguistic programming. And it seems like a pretty out there type of therapy, but it was fantastic.
00:39:20
Speaker
And there was a moment in one of our sessions where we were going through something and he said, something's going on in your brain now, tell me what you're thinking. And I was able to say out loud for the first time in my life exactly what had happened to me, to a man as well. And I could say that out loud,
00:39:45
Speaker
And then we worked through it a little bit. And that was just an absolute turning point. I walked out of that room feeling like, you know, 15 years or yeah, 15 years or however long it was, a bit longer than that had been lifted off my shoulders. I genuinely felt like a different person leaving that room, you know, incredible. And I just was able to articulate it. And
00:40:12
Speaker
since then I think I'm, you know, changed. And obviously I still, I had to then do a lot of work after that processing everything that had kind of happened. But being able to talk to you now is, you know, it's incredible. 10 years ago, there's no way we'd be having this conversation because I still felt so guilty and ashamed of myself. I mean, for something that had happened to me, it's crazy. It's, you know,
00:40:41
Speaker
It's bonkers to me to consider that now. But yeah, I think I had to work really hard to and what I had to learn to do was sit with my feelings about things and sit with my feelings about what happened to me as a young teenager.
00:41:04
Speaker
and process what that has meant for subsequent relationships, what that's meant for, all sorts of ways I've reacted to things and lived my life and everything else. Well, because it's not just what happened in those years, is it? It's the impact of what happened. Absolutely. The whole of the rest of your life. I was going to say something about how I feel about that, but actually I'm going to ask
00:41:34
Speaker
you, if you felt any grief, not just for what happened to that young girl, but for missed opportunities or behaviours, responses, reactions, relationships that could have been so much more healthy and wonderful parts of your
00:41:58
Speaker
past life without that tinge? Absolutely. I think grief is absolutely the right word and certainly I had an awful time at university. I hated it. I couldn't relate to people going out and having fun. I don't think I felt I was meant to be someone who
00:42:23
Speaker
had fun or you know it was really hard but actually I think the thing that I wish had been different
00:42:36
Speaker
whilst relationships were difficult and you know I was married and divorced in that time um and I don't think you know in a being in a relationship now where I can be so honest and open and feel myself I certainly never felt like that in my marriage I felt like I was trying to be something but actually the biggest thing is that I
00:43:03
Speaker
just broke myself trying so hard to prove that I was a valid person. So, you know, putting way more than is normal into work, putting way more than is normal into trying to be everything I, you know, thought I should be. It wasn't even aspirational. It was like, just to reach the bare minimum, I had to flog myself.

Self-Worth and Acceptance

00:43:28
Speaker
And, um,
00:43:30
Speaker
not ever allowing myself rest or never treating myself to and you know even and even now i if i you know decide i i want to buy something for myself there is a tiny little flicker of
00:43:45
Speaker
we don't deserve nice things. But, you know, it is now just a tiny little flicker that I can switch off and say, don't be ridiculous, Emma, you know, this is fine. But I think really the damage that I feel really sad about is that I spent
00:44:01
Speaker
Certainly my whole 20s just flogging myself. You know, be better, do more, work harder, never good enough. It didn't matter what I did, you know, it wasn't good enough. People could tell me, you know, I've clearly achieved some pretty cool things and people would say to me, oh, you know, what you've done is so inspiring. And my immediate thought would just be, no, it's not. You don't know. You don't know what's going on inside my brain. You don't have a clue.
00:44:28
Speaker
Emma, I'm going to interrupt you to say you are absolutely amazing. And I'm going to get you before we finished to tell everyone why that is. And you're not allowed to be self-deprecating about it because we all know how amazing you are. But I can relate a bit to what you're describing. And actually, one day on this podcast, I want to have a recording with lots of people talking about their experiences at university.
00:44:58
Speaker
it's a totally different subject but I've spoken to so many people who've reached out to me when I've mentioned it on social media that university can be the time of your life and should be a time of your life but it's not the amazing reincarnation time of your life that everybody makes it out to be you're off to university tick another box ticked you're going to have a wonderful time because
00:45:25
Speaker
It's hard, it's really difficult and people really struggle with their emotions at being suddenly away from home. But additionally, what you're describing, I think it happens to a lot of women and I've listened to podcasts. I'll try and remember which one it was and I'll link to it. I think it was the mother kind where they were talking about comparison, but it was all about never feeling like you've done enough, like you deserve,
00:45:53
Speaker
things. Oh, it was Elizabeth Day talking to Nadia Hussein, you know that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And who suffers with anxiety. And I think so many women suffer with anxiety. And it's, and it's underlying this feeling of
00:46:09
Speaker
not being deserving enough and then add in what happened to you as a young girl it's not any surprise that you've struggled to overcome these feelings. Absolutely and you know it's such a waste of time having those thoughts and feelings I think that's where the grief comes in because I feel like wow I wasted all of that thinking that feeling oh gosh just so many things and you know never it goes into so many things about
00:46:36
Speaker
your image of yourself and body image and you know I had children I had my daughter when I was 25 and I spent years probably five years thinking well my body's ruined now that's it you know my body's wrecked and you know I can't so I had to work really hard to make up for it in other ways and
00:46:53
Speaker
it's all what a waste of my time and my brain energy you know it's and now I think I've come to a point where I'm a lot more accepting of myself and I know that I work hard and I'm happy with that but I also am more than happy to take a rest and you know you will find me in the bath in the middle of the afternoon if I need half an hour off
00:47:19
Speaker
Ah yes, I want to high-five you there. I haven't reached that point yet. I'm in my work in progress. That's so good Emma and I'm so happy for you that you've managed to get to that place.
00:47:34
Speaker
As you said, it takes a lot of work. It's not something that you can go to a therapy session, even if you have that light bulb moment and that weight lifted off your shoulders, you then do have to dig deep. Absolutely. And I think what you said that resonates most for me is the thing about sitting with your feelings. And that is what so many of us in a busy world and teenagers especially,
00:47:56
Speaker
because of the pressures that are on them. Don't do. We feel something and we immediately want to distract ourselves from it. And that's so normal. Totally. And that intensity of teenage feeling as well. You know, that's very difficult. And I think that's where
00:48:14
Speaker
I wish I'd had someone to talk to as a teenager. I mean, and I think I would have probably talked to someone. You know, I know teenagers, that isn't a normal trait of a lot of teenagers, but I think something happened in
00:48:30
Speaker
as a result of what happened to me I think there was a bit of distance that was created between me and my mum and I think we've, mum and I have spoken about this and you know there was some damage that has now been repaired and we're you know we're super close but I think she didn't know how to handle that situation and she was dealing with her own you know issues at that time and certainly I think the
00:48:57
Speaker
the guilt that she felt subsequently for putting me, I think she felt she'd put me in that situation, which, you know, she absolutely hadn't. That's not how this, that's, you know, that it was abusive and no one would put their child in that situation. And she definitely didn't. She trusted someone she couldn't trust, you know, eventually. But that sitting with the emotion thing, I think if we can get teenagers to a point of being able to do that,
00:49:27
Speaker
The world would be a very different place. It would be so much happier and I would feel so much joy for those kids if they were able to do that. Absolutely. And actually I think that is the learning curve that if we can make it happen, if families can make that happen.

Hope for Future Generations

00:49:46
Speaker
Imagine the kids that are going to go out and run the world. If they have that level of emotional maturity and the ability to cope with their own feelings, it's getting better. Our school's incredibly good at talking to kids about what they need to do, how they need to be respected and who they can go to if they feel the need to open up.
00:50:08
Speaker
Definitely, but I do, I have so much hope. I mean, I've said to you that I, you know, believe the best in people to a fault, but I actually, I am so hopeful about this generation that's growing up now. You know, young people have, I think we were denied, certainly in the 80s and 90s, any, you know, everything was so consumer driven, we were denied any sense of purpose.
00:50:35
Speaker
So having a purpose and what you were doing was just, it wasn't important. Whereas I think now, the generation that are young, you know, teenagers and children now
00:50:46
Speaker
have this sense of purpose that's driving them that's, you know, they can't have aspirations of homeownership and all these things that were put on our shoulders to aspire to, because it's just not going to happen for so many of them, you know, and jobs aren't the same with, you know, a job for life type security. And the world is so different. And actually, what that's given is, I think, is these young people and children, a different optic to see the world through.
00:51:14
Speaker
where there's a greater purpose, you know, there's climate change and there's the stability of politics that needs to be, you know, brought back by these young people. And I just hope that, um, I mean, all I, all I'm interested is, is kind of helping bring those children up and lead the way and open the door and let them run through it. Cause it's, you know, I feel like it is, it's such a cliche, isn't it? The children of the future, but I
00:51:41
Speaker
actually think at this point, with the state our world is in, I'm hopeful. They are best equipped to take this forward, which doesn't let us off the hook, I know, but it does make me feel exact. I'm nodding like that, nodding people that are listening and can't see me. I'm so on the same page. And it's true. And I think as our children become teenagers, that is one of the most joyful revelations, that it's hard parenting a teenager who's passionate and idealistic.
00:52:10
Speaker
but it's so wonderful to watch. But I want to, we're running out of time and I want to very soon talk to you about whether what you do now has come as a result of some of your experiences. And I definitely want to hear from you about first days. But before we get to that, I want to ask you with that in mind, those teenagers who are changing, who are hopefully getting a better platform to speak out,
00:52:41
Speaker
what would you say to a young well I was going to say a young girl but it could be a boy too who is going through something similar and it may not be as
00:52:52
Speaker
uh full-on as what happened to you but any i do believe that there will be a lot of kids who are feeling under pressure from a sexual point of view not necessarily from an older person but from each other because it's such a difficult confusing time and want to talk about it and feel that something isn't right apart from the obvious of don't do something you don't want to do stand up for yourself it's absolutely within your right
00:53:21
Speaker
somebody who has done something that they're not comfortable with, how would you advise that or has allowed something to happen to them that they're not happy with? How would you advise that child? I think there's a couple of things. Firstly is that it's a moment in time, you know, it doesn't define
00:53:39
Speaker
who you are or you know, it doesn't define what happened. It doesn't have to be a defining feature of your character or who you are as a person. It's absolutely, you know, other things happen and we write them off as a moment in time and it's just, it is a moment in time that is not defining. But also it's absolutely, there should be no shame and no guilt and
00:54:09
Speaker
it doesn't affect your worth on the planet, who you are as a human being and there shouldn't be any shame or guilt in talking to someone about it and finding the right person to speak to and share that with and
00:54:26
Speaker
if that's not apparent. And, you know, one of my probably one of the things I could have done so differently and I wish had happened differently was that I wish I had found it within myself to talk to my parents more openly or more explicitly, probably, I think had I been, you know, explicit in the cruder sense of the term, then things might have turned out differently.
00:54:54
Speaker
in terms of how it was handled and the subsequent guilt and shame that I felt. But, you know, I think it's about talking, but it's about really knowing, you know, deep down in those thoughts as you're falling asleep at night that you are enough and what you, you know, things that happen to us shouldn't define us as people moving forward. And it's that, you know, that knowing that you're enough
00:55:24
Speaker
is the key really. Such good advice. And what would you say to parents who know something's going on like this? I think
00:55:36
Speaker
I think it's firstly that it's really hard but you know hard things probably do need to be looked at and light needs to be shone on them and it's about getting alongside your child, your young person and showing them that unconditional love and that unconditional support and you know I think what I really needed was to know that no matter what happened there was someone in my corner
00:56:02
Speaker
and it didn't actually matter what had happened to me or what I did or there was always someone in my corner who would have my back. And as a parent, it is hurtful. If you think of your child doing things that you don't approve of or things happening to them that are horrendous, that's a really hurtful thing. But we as parents are the adults in the situation and I think there are
00:56:32
Speaker
I think as a parent, your instinct, you know when you need to intervene, you know when you need to take control. And that's something my mum has said to me recently is that she just, you know, her big regret is not stepping in when she had those little feelings that something wasn't right.
00:56:51
Speaker
She should have, hindsight's amazing, isn't it? But she could have said or done something. And I think that is something that she's had to deal with. So yeah, I would say to parents, you know what's going on. And if you've got an inkling, you're probably right. And if you're not, well, then you can have a laugh about it. You can realize, put it, chalk it down to experience. But actually, I think for me,
00:57:18
Speaker
letting your children know that you are there for them no matter what is the first step in them being open with you or knowing that door's always open, there's always a way in. Yeah, I completely agree and it's an easy mistake to make and I think we all make it at times, shutting things down or being judgmental or as my daughter says to me,
00:57:38
Speaker
turning everything she tells me into a learning point as a parent. Well, that's why we don't run into the road, isn't it, Harry? And you carry that on into their teenage years and actually the more you do that, the more they start to shut down and not tell you. It's really difficult. But
00:57:59
Speaker
it's almost being brave because I certainly can imagine not wanting to open that conversation up with my child. For fear of their reaction, for fear of where we might go with it and what might have to happen as a result. Going back to what we said about, well they'll cope, they'll deal with it, we'll move past this, but with what damage? So it's being brave.
00:58:24
Speaker
Right, Emma, thank you so much for all of that. That is honestly such a wonderful conversation. I do want before you go.
00:58:34
Speaker
for you to tell us about your charity work and the things you've done since becoming an adult.

Founding a Charity to Combat Poverty

00:58:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I started, I mean, interestingly, what you said before about how much of it is a result of my experiences, what I would not recommend doing is starting a charity when you have a 10 week old baby and an 18 month old toddler, because really you don't have the time.
00:59:04
Speaker
but and that was certainly a lot of that was part of wanting to prove myself however i'm glad i did it um so yeah i started this charity when i had very very young children um and very simply we help families living in poverty by giving them things that they couldn't otherwise afford so
00:59:25
Speaker
from beds to buggies to school uniforms to Christmas presents, you know, all those things that are prohibitively expensive for families who are on low income or, you know, really struggling with the cost of life. And the charity's grown massively. So I started it eight years ago and it's gone from kind of people dropping things on my doorstep and me finding families to give them to to
00:59:51
Speaker
kind of a huge operation helping thousands of children every year and I've got a staff team and hundreds of volunteers and or it's you know it's it's it's remarkable I I look back and
01:00:04
Speaker
surprised by what's happened and really, really, really proud of it. So yeah, it's sad. It shouldn't exist. Absolutely shouldn't exist. I think I always shock people by saying that my number one aim is to close the charity down. Where do you see yourself in 10 years? Well, shut, because we're not needed is the aim. But sadly, with the state of how things are at the moment, that's not
01:00:33
Speaker
It's not an option. No. No. And thank God for you, Emma, and that gem of an idea and all the people who support you with it. It's amazing. It must feel like such an achievement. You must feel good about it. It's okay to feel good about it. Oh, I do. Yeah, yeah. No, I do definitely. I'm really proud of what we've achieved and it is a team effort, but it has personally
01:01:00
Speaker
It's taken a lot of work, you know, I work really hard and it's taken a lot of hard work and a lot of effort and, you know, I have, like I was saying before, I have found the balance now between work and rest, which I didn't have for many years and I think part of that was to do with processing, you know, all of my feelings and realising that I am enough without
01:01:22
Speaker
any of my achievements and they are just you know icing on the cake but yeah I think I know I am very proud of it and I'm not ashamed of that at all.
01:01:32
Speaker
Yeah well and that's a positive to come out of everything then if it drove you to create something so wonderful. Okay Emma where can people find you to connect with and certainly where can people find the charity to help support if they can? Yep um on social media almost all the time I get told off constantly by my children and my partner um it is
01:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, my screen time went down by half over Christmas because they basically banned me from my phone for two weeks, so it was amazing. Oh God, how did that feel? I felt a little bit controlling to begin with but then, you know, it was fine. I quite enjoyed it, you know, played some board games and stuff. Yeah, we'll need that. Yeah, exactly.
01:02:18
Speaker
So yes on Instagram it's Emma underscore Cantrell and all the links to the charity are on my Instagram so it's probably easier to head in that way and find all the charity links. First Days website is firstdays.net and all of our social links are on there so we'd love to see you and for you to see what we're doing. Brilliant and I will just endorse that with First Days is a wonderful account to follow and support
01:02:45
Speaker
But Emma in her own right is also someone to follow because she's not just a charity CEO and massive supporter and worker. She's also really fun to follow. She's a runner too. Oh yeah, apparently. Oh yeah, you run way more than me. And Emma's helped me with my running journey with little tips and bits of advice as well. Go follow Emma. Thank you. Thank you Emma again for being on the podcast. It's been such a wonderful conversation.
01:03:16
Speaker
I don't know about you, but to me, Emma just sounds so sorted. And it sounds like she's been that way all her life, not the kind of person you'd ever imagine having to deal with something as horrific as sexual abuse at such a young age. And yet, I bet it happens more often than we think.
01:03:43
Speaker
On the plus side, I think anyone listening to this who is being affected by anything similar should absolutely take Emma's message to heart. You are enough. No one needs to keep going through the agony that's caused by something that traumatic. The answer as always on this podcast.
01:04:06
Speaker
lies in talking, finding just someone to talk to. Thank you again so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you subscribe and rate the podcast so that you're first to hear when a new episode drops. And if you know anyone who you think might find this episode helpful, please go ahead and share it with them. Bye for now, and I'll see you next week with another brilliant guest to talk about the highs and lows of parenting teenagers.