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Navigating the Journey of Donor Conception
177 Plays10 months ago
Explore the emotional landscape of donor conception in this episode, as Julie sits down with Linsday Harris, who was gracious enough to share personal testimony, expert insights, and practical guidance. We delve into the considerations, choices, and challenges that arise, offering valuable insights for those contemplating donor conception, as well as fostering understanding for those curious about the diverse stories within this realm of family building.
About today's guest:
Lindsay Harris is an LCSW in private practice at Key Counseling Group in Atlanta, GA. She specializes in maternal mental health and those facing infertility challenges. She enjoys incorporating parts work into her practice, also known as Internal Family Systems or IFS. She works with individuals struggling with depression, anxiety, perfectionism, life transitions, LGBTQ issues and more. Lindsay is also passionate about working with couples and has extensive training in Emotionally Focused Therapy which guides her work with couples. Lindsay serves on the board of the U.S. Donor Conceived Council. USDCC is a nonprofit that strives to increase awareness of the needs, interests, and challenges of donor conceived people and advance change that promotes and protects their health, welfare, and human rights.
Resources: www.usdcc.org
Get in touch with Lindsay:
www.keycounselingatl.com
Instagram: @keycounselingatl
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 2
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
Personal Story of Donor Conception
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Outside of Session. I'm really excited for today's episode because my special guest is Lindsay Harris, who is a fellow clinical social worker here in Atlanta. She works at Key Counseling Group in Atlanta.
00:01:02
Speaker
Today, we're going to be talking about donor conception. Lindsay was gracious enough to share a lot of her personal story, which I think that you guys are going to find really interesting. It was so good to sit down with her and hear her story. I was just so thankful and so grateful that she was willing to share with us. I think you guys are really, really going to like this episode.
00:01:24
Speaker
A little bit more about Lindsay. Like I said, she's a fellow therapist here in Atlanta and she specializes in maternal mental health and working with those facing infertility challenges. She also works with individuals struggling with depression, anxiety, perfectionism.
00:01:41
Speaker
life transitions, LGBTQ issues, and so much more. She also does couples counseling and she's trained in emotionally focused therapy, which is really good for couples counseling. And then she also does a lot of parts work. So she's trained in IFS, which is eternal family systems. I know you guys hear me talk about that a lot as well. So she's got a lot of really good things going on in her practice.
00:02:05
Speaker
Lindsay also serves on the board of the U.S. Donor Conceived Council. She is the Vice President of Mental Health Initiatives, which is a phenomenal role that she works in in a way that she gives back to her community. This is a nonprofit that strives to increase the awareness of the needs and interests and challenges of donor-conceived people and to advance the change that promotes and protects their health, welfare, and human rights.
00:02:30
Speaker
So at the end of this episode, make sure you check out all of the links and resources that I'm going to be putting in the show notes. Lindsay was gracious enough to provide me with a lot of information. So if you are, if you're more interested in it, or if you are somebody that's on this journey, I think it'll be really, really helpful to not only be able to contact her and get more information from her, but she's offered a lot of resources as well. So without further ado, here we go talking with Lindsay.
00:03:02
Speaker
Lindsay, hello. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Hi, it's really great to be here with you, Julie. It's so funny because this is our second introduction because, as always, I'm over here having tech issues, technological issues, but hopefully those are all out of the way. Yes, all good.
00:03:21
Speaker
So today we're going to be talking about something really, really interesting, and that is donor conception. And when you first reached out to talk about this, I was immediately so excited because this is something that I have no experience with in my practice. And I know it's something that you work with a lot, but it's also something that you've experienced. And I love hearing people's personal stories because that just makes it so much more
00:03:45
Speaker
like real and tangible. So I'm so excited to hear whatever you're willing to share with us today about donor conception. Yeah. Well, thank you so much just for this opportunity. I really appreciate kind of what you're doing with this podcast and
00:04:00
Speaker
I feel really grateful to be here and have a chance to share more about this topic that is really near and dear to my heart. Yeah, I know that this is something because of your lived experience with it.
Choosing a Sperm Donor: Challenges and Considerations
00:04:10
Speaker
I know that this is something that's just really special for you and you just have like a, just a real like mission with it to be able to provide more women and more couples and more people with resources and education and support.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yes. So where do you want to start? Where do you want to start with your own personal story? I'm so excited to hear more about it. Yeah. Well, I feel like my world kind of intersects with different parts of this whole donor conception journey in different ways. And so I guess I'll just kind of start from where it feels like the beginning for me and share a little bit about that personal side. So I would say that it kind of began for me and
00:04:54
Speaker
learning or understanding more about donor conception when my wife and I decided to start to have a family. Yeah. And so we knew we were going to have to, you know, figure out a way to use donors firm to create children. And when we started the process, we were kind of going into it a little bit blindly. Like we didn't really have a lot of guidance around what to expect or how to do it or even what, what all of this would entail. Yeah. Where to start.
00:05:24
Speaker
Exactly. So we just sort of jumped into looking at some different sperm banks and had to pay some money to be able to look through profiles. And it was just overwhelming at times. Like you're just kind of reading about these people on paper, but you're not really sure like, can I get a sense of this person that I'm going to create a child with? Yeah. So I can't imagine how just overwhelming that process is.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, it really was. And like I said, again, not really any guidance anywhere that we knew of on to help us understand what we were getting into. I do know from the beginning, though, that we narrowed our search down because we were unwilling to look at any donor that was anonymous.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so the other option that the bank offered was donors that are called open ID. And what that means is that when the child's 18, they would have the option to reach out to the bank and get identifying information about the donor and then potentially reach out and form either a connection or just be able to get maybe more medical information or have some type of contact at 18. And so my wife and I both knew like we did not want to take that option from our future children. And so,
00:06:44
Speaker
We never even entertained the thought of looking at anonymous donors. And for that, I do feel good about even knowing that we didn't have a lot of guidance. I felt good about knowing that we weren't going to go down that route at that time.
Therapy Session: Is It Enough?
00:07:00
Speaker
So here we were just kind of sifting through making decisions. And I remember we got down to like narrowed it down to two different guys and it was like,
00:07:11
Speaker
How do we just clear the trigger and kind of make this decision? It kind of felt like we could really overthink it a lot. And we just ended up going with the donor who somehow, like what he wrote in his little about me section, it just felt a little more genuine to us. It felt a little more heartfelt. We just felt a little more connected to what he shared. He also had some shared interests that we both had. And so we kind of went with it from there. Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
So then we started this journey of going to the fertility clinic, going through all the processes there medically. We did have to have one, we were required to have one therapy session to get approval to start the process. Yeah. I remember on the phone a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about that, about how
00:08:04
Speaker
one therapy session. You don't even know what to process through. No. But on one hand, I'm glad that one is required. That's better than none, I guess. Sure. But what are your thoughts on that one requirement? Yeah. And I think I'll get more into this when I talk about some of the advocacy. But I do think that it's such a fine line. We don't want to gatekeep.
00:08:33
Speaker
the process of who can become parents, right? Absolutely. And that feels like it's like in the hands of maybe somebody who could be very subjective. Yeah. But on the other hand, there's so many layers to this process that you want to make sure that there's enough that's been processed through. And so it is a really fine line to kind of navigate that. And so we actually went and like randomly pick somebody to do the session for us. They didn't have any specific training on how to do that. And I think, I think
00:09:03
Speaker
Well, according to the ASRM, which is the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, they would say that it should be somebody trained who does the therapy session for you and gives the approval to the doctor.
Revelation and Identity: Discovering Conception Truths
00:09:18
Speaker
But the fertility doctors, I don't think they really manage that. We have the approval letter from a licensed therapist. You're good to go. Yeah. And so I do remember in that session that we did talk about
00:09:31
Speaker
how we would be open and we would definitely share with our child the story of how they were created and it would never be like the secret. I mean, it would be a little hard for it to be a secret that we're two women creating a family, but still, I do remember at least touching on that in the session. And so then we jumped into it. I mean, the doctors, it was like, everything was sort of like medical at that point. There wasn't really a lot of counseling or information around like what this would be like.
00:09:59
Speaker
for having donor-conceived children, what they would feel like. It was just like, here we go. We're just doing this whole medical side of things. And for those who are familiar with fertility treatment, we started out doing IUIs. So we weren't doing IVF. And so it was a little less intensive at that point. And we had our hopes up. We're like, I don't have any known
00:10:23
Speaker
infertility struggles. I don't really know. I'm just going in. I have to go do this route because this is how I have to create a family. So we were really hopeful and it didn't happen. And then we went another round and it didn't happen. And then we went another round and it didn't happen. And we, the weight of that was so heavy and so discouraging. And I remember talking to my mom like, Hey,
00:10:46
Speaker
What was it like for you trying to get pregnant? I kind of have a vague memory of you saying that it maybe took you guys a while. So I'm trying to kind of find some comfort in hearing from my mom and her journey. And she kind of gave me some vague answers when I was asking her about it. And then a little bit after that random Friday night, I get a call from my mom, which felt really strange just to get a phone call on a Friday night from her and
00:11:14
Speaker
It's a day I'll never forget because she said to me, well, not only are your children being created through donor sperm, but your brother and you were also created through donor sperm. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So bombshell. Yeah. At this point in my early thirties, my whole life I'm like sitting there realizing that my father who raised me,
00:11:44
Speaker
I'm not biologically related to him. And I'm just feeling the weight of like kind of my world being rocked in this moment. Yeah, yeah. So I had a lot to process. There were tears, there were questions, there was like, why did you never tell us? Yeah, yeah. There was confusion. I can vividly remember that next day
00:12:14
Speaker
looking in the mirror and feeling like I was looking at a stranger. I was like, where is this other half of me? Who is this other person? Who do I look like? It was a very strange feeling to have that happen. And my mom, unfortunately, had no information about the donor, about
00:12:44
Speaker
the process. She just remembers that they were having trouble getting pregnant. They ended up testing my dad's sperm. He had no functioning sperm basically. And at that point it was like devastating. And then the doctor's like, well, there is this other option. You could use donor sperm. And so that's basically all she knew was like, here's this other option. And so she went and
00:13:11
Speaker
There were no profiles to scan through or books to look through. There was just like show up at the doctor's and they tell you to show up and they do the procedure. Wow. And I imagine, I mean, I feel like that was fairly new. Like when did this really, like
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah, like so many of the different protocols and things that they have in place now and so much of even what the parents know about all the decisions that you were already thinking about.
00:13:42
Speaker
with your wife, right? Like I wonder if those things just, it was, it was a newer intervention. If they just didn't know to think about these things, I'm guessing. A hundred percent. Yeah. So I mean, there's documented cases of donor conception, even from like the fifties. So, um, I would say it was, and I don't really have a lot of information around, um, the specifics. Yeah, the history. But like, I do know that, um,
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah, there were times of that happening throughout those decades. And this was like in the 80s when this was happening. And absolutely, they were told, the doctors told them, don't tell anyone. This is, go for it. This is your family. Nobody needs to know. There's no reason for anyone to know. And my parents never told a soul. My mom never told her sisters. She never told her parents.
00:14:37
Speaker
And so there was an aspect of me in this moment when I'm hearing this, um, that wow, like she had to carry that she carried that they carried that like all their life. And she said there would be years where she wouldn't even think about it. Like it's just, it just wasn't, it was like, this was our family and we're just rolling through life together. And then, you know, you'd get a comment, like something about
00:15:00
Speaker
looks or something about, Oh, you guys all have the brown eyes. Nobody got the blue eyes like your dad or, you know, things like that, that would kind of remind them of this. Um, and I will say like, and I'll talk more about sort of some of this to best practices of, of when to tell people that they're donor conceived. But if I couldn't have been told from the time I was young, the next best time would have been in this moment where I could relate to my mom. I wanted a baby.
00:15:30
Speaker
you know, I wanted a child. And so I was in this place of like, I do understand what that feels like. And, um, so I did have some, I guess, compassion in knowing that that's, that's what she did. She knew she did what she needed to do to have a child. And then she had no other guidance around how to navigate that. She told me that I was the first person she ever met that also had a donor conceived child.
00:16:02
Speaker
that she knows of. Yes, that she knows of. That she knows of, right? You're right. Like half of her friends might have and nobody's talking about it because they were all told that they needed to just move on like this, you know? And so again, like how isolating. Very, very. She did say, I used to always worry that I would like die in a car accident and then you would find out
00:16:26
Speaker
the blood types or something and you would think I cheated on your dad or something. She did have those things kind of like haunting her at times with this secret. And she told me the reason why she called me that day to tell me the truth was because she said, when you started asking me about my journey of getting pregnant, that felt like the first time I was directly lying to you about it. All the other times sort of felt like lie of omission, sort of.
00:16:55
Speaker
Everyone's just assuming this is how our family was created and that's what we'll allow them to assume, but yeah. So she really tried to, she reached back out to that doctor's office that really didn't even exist anymore, but she did try to see if there was any type of records because I was curious. I wanted to know more and I felt so lost in not knowing
00:17:22
Speaker
anything and not knowing how I would ever know. Like how will I ever know more? Um, and so my brother and I decided to do DNA tests.
DNA Testing: New Family Connections
00:17:32
Speaker
Um, we did like 23andMeandAncestry.com. Yeah. I was just thinking about that too, because I've even had a couple of clients that have, um, found out this information because of those. Yeah. There's been a lot of that. So how do you, what are your thoughts about,
00:17:51
Speaker
about finding out that way, or I don't know. Well, I guess my thoughts are, I think it's always important for people to know the truth. And so it will come with some pain, absolutely, and some maybe even feelings of betrayal. But at the end of the day, I think we all deserve to know our truth. And I feel a little fortunate in the sense that my parents did tell me
00:18:20
Speaker
and that I didn't find out through a test. I think finding out through a test definitely makes it even more shocking. And kind of like a, I don't know, just a slap in the face, like, wow. Nobody even kind of came forward and told me this. So that, I know that that happens a lot through these, and that's something they couldn't have predicted back in the 80s either, right? There's gonna be these commercial DNA tests that are in people's mailboxes and so easy to get.
00:18:50
Speaker
So there was no way of really knowing that this would develop in this way with the ease of access to knowing this information. So we went and put our, this is the other kicker. My mom didn't even know if my brother and I were from the same donor or not. Wow. So they wouldn't have known that back in the eighties. They just maybe didn't make note of it. She didn't even know to like,
00:19:18
Speaker
consider asking, I'm not sure. But as soon as we found that out, we were like, no, we are not. We just knew, like it was so, like just how different we are. We're like, there's no way. And so we took the test and I happened to actually be visiting my brother when I got the results, which is like quite rare. We live in different places and don't see each other very often, but we got the results together and immediately he had a match to a half brother.
00:19:47
Speaker
And I did not, like it was clear that we were only half siblings and turns out he ended up getting connected directly to his donor. Like that was the trial raised by the donor that he got connected to on the ancestry. So that was pretty interesting. And I don't really want to share much of his story because I feel like it's his story, but for me, I wanted to be matched. And then there was like nobody, like there was like, you know, third, fourth cousins, like there was nobody to really have enough information to really,
00:20:17
Speaker
decipher who I might, who my biological father might be. I don't know. One thing that we had talked about on the phone is that, um, there are decades of like implications with this, right? Yeah, absolutely. Because even with a test light 23 and me, you might have something pop up tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like, cause more and more people are doing these tests.
00:20:42
Speaker
Do you feel like that is something, is that a hard thing to think that there's, I imagine, a bit of disappointment that your brother has connected with some of his family and you haven't yet. There's, there's still that possibility that as many, like, realizations that have come your way, you've had to process through so much, there might be more to process with this, right?
00:21:07
Speaker
It's a very like lingering unknown. That's just sort of always there. And, um, yeah, I appreciate you just even noticing that like that, that it is, it's strange to see the possibility. Like maybe it just hasn't happened yet. And I can't tell you how many times I've like come across even somebody, maybe on social media and I'll see features and I'm like, Oh my gosh,
Community and Support for Donor-Conceived Individuals
00:21:30
Speaker
am I related to them? Like, like,
00:21:33
Speaker
It happens, right? Like like I see people and I'm and I like want to go find out like where were they born? Were they right areas me because How like It's just strange to look at somebody and see that there could be a possibility that you might be related to them and you just don't know yet and we talk about the DNA test getting more popular like
00:21:56
Speaker
And I'm really connected and I'll talk more about this too, to a bunch of other donor can see people. We kind of have a whole community and they call it sibling season. And what we call about that is usually like in January because a lot of people will get DNA tests for Christmas. Oh my gosh. And then all these new siblings pop up on people's like DNA results. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So.
00:22:27
Speaker
Okay. Well, I was just going to ask at that point, you learn this out and that is a lot to process, but you and your wife are also in the middle of your journey. How did that, maybe that's where you were about to go with it too. Um, but how did that impact your, your, your, your journey with your family? Sure. Yeah. That's a great question. Um,
00:22:50
Speaker
It just really rocks my world, obviously. And I also felt this sense of like, wow, I'm going to really be able to give some more understanding to my children. Like, this is maybe a space where we're going to connect in a way that I never anticipated. Because I did have I did have worry about how they were going to be impacted, how they were going to feel about like not having an active father in their life or
00:23:17
Speaker
Um, that role, even though they have two loving parents, like I had worry about those things. Um, but I thought, well, maybe we will at least have some way to relate and understand each other and give space to that. Um, and so one thing that it also did for me was it did open me up a lot more to want to connect with other families who were using the same donor.
00:23:41
Speaker
And so soon after that, we got connected. There was a Facebook group from this, or a bank that we use, and you were able to just list the number. Donors are identified by numbers. And so we had our donor number and said, anybody else that used this donor? And actually, we ended up on my fourth failed try of getting pregnant.
00:24:05
Speaker
We were out of vials. We were like, are we going to switch donors? What are we going to do? This is so discouraging. That same day, we had somebody pop up on that group page that had used the same donor, and they had a little six month old baby. And we saw his face. And we were like, oh. Oh my gosh. The timing was unreal. And it really just hit us right in the heart. And we said, we can't. We can't switch.
00:24:34
Speaker
We're going to buy more vials. We're going to keep with this donor. We don't want to start all over anyways, but we were just worried like maybe, maybe there's a reason like, uh, it's, we're not able to create a baby with this sperm. I don't know. We weren't, we, you know, we didn't know what was going on. You just kind of get desperate.
00:24:50
Speaker
And so at that point that's a lot of the struggles that Any couple that's having fertility issues I recorded another episode with someone and I know you work a lot with infertility as well There's just kind of this assumption that it's it's gonna be easy to get pregnant Yeah, somebody's been so many people spend so many years trying not to get pregnant That there's just this feeling that it that it's gonna happen as soon as you decide for it to happen and so there's
00:25:22
Speaker
other complications that you guys are having to work with, but there's the infertility issue too of just why is this taking so long? Just disappointment for different tries and not having like every single one of those is just a heartbreak, right? Absolutely. Yeah. It was devastating. Um, so this gave us a little piece of hope again, finding this, um, other family. And so, um, we kept, we kept going and we kept trying, um,
00:25:52
Speaker
And finally, after the seventh IUI, I got pregnant.
Pregnancy Journey and Emotional Milestones
00:25:59
Speaker
Yay. It was amazing. It was just so much to celebrate. And at that point, we had gotten more connected. And since I was pregnant, we could verify that we used that donor. And so we ended up joining a group
00:26:17
Speaker
there was a group of us that he used the same donor. And so we found a lot of value in like, Hey, these are our kids siblings. Like we want to make sure that we are willing to kind of foster this. And so we actually, um, while I was pregnant, um, that first little boy that we said we saw his picture, um, his parents came to visit us. Um, so we met him and his other mom was pregnant with twins at the time while I was pregnant with my first. And so,
00:26:45
Speaker
Um, it was really, really special getting to have that chance to kind of connect and experience that. Yeah. And, um, so I guess I could kind of speed the story up from there a little bit as far as, um, you know, now my son is six. Um, and, um, our youngest is three. And so my wife, both boys and my wife ended up carrying the second.
00:27:13
Speaker
one, which was our plan kind of all along. And she had quite a journey as well. Um, lot of, lot, a lot of tries on this carriage in there as well. Um, so definitely was not an easy path at all. Um, but we, we really were specifically wanted to make sure that we use the same donor for the second child and that they were, you know, biologically related, um, and that way too. And so,
00:27:43
Speaker
A lot has happened since then. My understanding of donor conception, the needs of donor conceived people, but that's sort of kind of, I guess, my story of... Yeah, that's the story. It's a beautiful one. Hey, everyone. I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session.
00:28:12
Speaker
If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:28:28
Speaker
What do you wish now that you're now that you are on this side of it and you also do this work with a lot of clients now? Um, what do you feel like are some things that you wish you had known almost a decade ago, right? Yeah. Yeah, really. Um, those things you wish you had known. Yeah. I, I wish that, um,
00:28:58
Speaker
But I would have known even just the thought of like maybe even not using a sperm bank or maybe using a known donor, which actually, by the way, we did have two different people in our life that we did talk to about maybe using someone that we knew to be a donor for us. So we did actually really consider that. And part of the reason why was because we did want to have the sense that our child could be connected to this person in a role, not as a parenting role, but in a special role in their life.
00:29:26
Speaker
Um, so I guess I just wish I would have understood more about options in that way. Um, and I'm glad I at least knew to not really go the route of the anonymous. Um, even though technically we don't feel that anybody can be anonymous anymore with in the same age, like anybody who's donating under the assumption that they're anonymous, that is pretty false because
00:29:52
Speaker
even if they never take a DNA test, their cousin, their uncle, their grandmother, somebody in their life has taken one and will show a connection to that. And so I wish I would have known more about that. And I guess in terms of like this work, when I think about when people are experiencing infertility, especially
00:30:21
Speaker
straight people who are, you know, their thought in life always is like, they're going to have created babies together, right? And so my thought was a little bit different, my framework, because I knew going in, like, my wife and I were going to have to do this. But I think it's even tougher to understand that, in that timeframe, even for me, like you, you heard me say earlier, like, we were just desperate at that point, we wanted to have a baby, is it's really hard to hold space.
00:30:47
Speaker
and consider anything outside of just the focus of getting pregnant. It's hard to comprehend that there's going to be other things down the line and needs that your child might have because of how they were conceived.
00:31:03
Speaker
There's not a lot of room to hold that or get into that. Yeah. I remember you mentioned that when we were on the phone a couple of weeks ago, that even when you go in for that first therapy session and that one session, that's the sole focus. Yeah. You're right. There's not a lot of capacity to be able to process what's next because you're not there yet.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah. And there's just so much grief in the room at that point too, right? There's grief over not for whatever the reason is that you're not able to make a baby together like, and this is not the route anybody wants to choose, right? Like it's just, it's, it's the route that they have to choose if they want this result. And so, um, I have so much compassion for that, right? Like there is, um, it's hard to have capacity for anything more than that. But I guess what I,
00:31:58
Speaker
want people to know is that at some point there needs to be room for that, right? And it might not be when you're in the process of going through fertility treatments. Maybe it's as you progress in your pregnancy, you feel a little more capacity to kind of take some of that in. Or maybe it's sometime soon after the baby's here, but there has to be something fairly early on in those early times that you have some space to understand what your child's needs might be as a gender confusing person.
00:32:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Advocacy for Donor-Conceived Individuals
00:32:28
Speaker
Um, and do you want to share any of that today, um, of what those other considerations are that you learned maybe along the way, but didn't know in the beginning? Sure. Yeah. So I have since, um, well, the, the first five years of knowing I was doing or conceived, I was kind of alone in it. I didn't really know anybody else to be connected to that had this experience.
00:32:55
Speaker
And I finally stumbled across a group called We Are Donor Conceived. And it was a group of most all adults at this point who mostly all found out as adults, which we call referred to as late discovery. And it was just like such a breath of fresh air to see and get connected to other people who had similar stories and experiences. And I felt definitely like less alone in that. And from We Are Donor Conceived,
00:33:24
Speaker
A woman named Erin Jackson started that group and then she started a nonprofit off of that called US Donor Conceived Council. It's comprised of all donor conceived people who run it. We're all just volunteers. I got pulled in after about the first year of them being established to come on board as the VP of Mental Health Initiatives.
00:33:49
Speaker
kind of got to wear my hat as a donor conceived person, wear my hat as a recipient parent and as a therapist. And as a therapist. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, and which we will put all of the, any links that you have for resources, we'll make sure to put into the show notes so that people have access to them as well. Awesome. That's great. Thank you. And so, um, since then I've just learned so much more about other people, like even to be in that group and have other people talk about how once they first found out about
00:34:16
Speaker
being donor conceived, like the struggle they had when they looked in the mirror too. I'm like, oh, I felt that too. Like just to feel like the sense of like what, how I was processing things was similar to what other people went through. And so I've learned about how unregulated the fertility system is. I mean, the sperm banks are so unregulated. They have guidelines and suggestions
00:34:44
Speaker
for things like family limits. And unfortunately, those are exceeded all the time. And my case with my children is an example of that. Our sperm donor was signed a contract with the thought that it would only be 40 families. And him as a 20 year old going in there to donate and make some money,
00:35:10
Speaker
wasn't thinking even 20 families would mean more than 20 kids. He's just kind of, I mean, 40, he was thinking, you know, okay, 40, okay. Well, that has been far exceeded past that number, which is so hard to digest. And it's like, on one hand, of course, we never wish for any of those children to not be here. And at the same time, it is so hard to comprehend that there are so many children out there
00:35:40
Speaker
and all across the world really too. And so when I think about my own children, they are aware of this, but they can't fully comprehend the fact that they have this many siblings all around the United States, in Canada, in Australia. And then the aspects of trying to facilitate a relationship with those people. I mean, how will he have a chance to go to Australia someday and meet his sibling?
00:36:10
Speaker
I don't know the reality of some of those dynamics. And so I guess I've learned about the importance of just wanting to advocate more against the systems that are at play here. We know it always comes down to money and how they're able to just get as much as they can in that regard and in some ways also in disregard of the people that they're creating.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot to process. What do you think that, like what emotions has that brought on for you? Is there, is it just a lot of anger and frustration that these guidelines are supposed to be there to protect families and they're just disregarded? What has it been like to have to process through that?
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, there's just so much mistrust there for everybody involved, right? Donors are misled, recipient parents, that's the term used of people who are kind of receiving the donated genetic material. And so it feels, yeah, like such a mistrust and that they can prey on the emotions of vulnerable people, right? Yeah, it's such a vulnerable place to be in. And they know that, they know,
00:37:37
Speaker
Folks are going to pay the money. They're going to do what they need to do to get their child. And that's really played on. And so I mentioned earlier that the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, known as ASRM, that they are the ones that kind of provide the guidelines. And they actually have a yearly conference. And our work at USCCC has tried to kind of,
00:38:07
Speaker
We've done a lot of advocacy to try to get into, um, in front of these people, right. And to share about how donor can see people feel and some of their needs. And what's unfortunate is that they still have never included a donor concede voice on any of their panels at any of these conferences. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So they're essentially making, we're the product, but they say you're not our client, you know, you're not our, um, the
00:38:36
Speaker
the voices, I guess, that they care to hear from. And so, actually, there's a campaign going on right now with the U.S. Donor Conceived Council that we're sending some people, and we're gonna pull up our own chair, even though we weren't invited. And so, we're still pushing forward to share, and we're not gonna, you know, go away. Yeah, absolutely. We're sharing. So, those are some of the missions that USCCC has, is reducing the sibling size, you know, the family limit,
00:39:07
Speaker
We would love to see that because these are other things people don't think about, like the risk of incest. Like there is a legitimate risk of that. There is siblings in our group, in our pod who showed up at the same gymnastics class. Yeah. And I mean, it is, it is very possible and not even just this generation of people, but your children could be with cousins. I mean, there's just, there, it affects a lot of people down the line.
00:39:35
Speaker
to when there's not any awareness around this. Yeah. And when we're talking about future implications, I'm sure that that's something as your children get older that you're just going to have to have lots of conversations with them about, right? Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. But one thing I didn't get to share in some of the maybe happier parts of the more up to date aspect of my story is that
00:40:04
Speaker
It took five years, but well, actually after three years of being on the DNA sites, I did get connected to a half-brother. Oh my, that's amazing. Who was also generally conceived and had just found out.
Connecting with Biological Father
00:40:18
Speaker
Okay. And so we got connected and that was really exciting for both of us. And we both also wanted to plug, push forward on maybe trying to find more about who our actual donor was. And so we were trying to kind of put some pieces together and
00:40:34
Speaker
I came across a service that is provided for people who are really excellent at genealogy and genetics. And they're called Search Angels. And this woman, Laura, who is truly my angel, put together all the work looking at my connections. I had a few first, or not first, second cousin connections and ways that she was able to build out and put together. Oh, that's incredible. It was absolutely incredible. It took her three days. Wow.
00:41:04
Speaker
she sends me this link to a Facebook profile. And it's like, I believe this is your biological father. And when I saw his picture, and my wife saw it, we were like, at 100% that has to be him. And this happened recently? This happened in 2021. Yes. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And so I had waited all that time. And this is another thing, another thing that
00:41:32
Speaker
donor can see people face a lot, is if they are able to identify the donor, then the angst is, what do I do? Do I reach out? What do I say? What are they going to say? Am I going to be rejected? And there's so much angst around that feeling. And we tell ourselves, and Lisa, I told myself, I just want to know what he looks like, and I just want some medical information. But deep down, I know good and well. I wanted him to accept me. I wanted him to be curious about me.
00:42:02
Speaker
And so I wrote him and told him this, hey, this might sound, this might be the craziest email you've ever gotten. Just kind of kept it really brief, but let him know I was looking for my biological father who I knew had donated sperm in this area around this timeframe. And he came back, he wrote me back, which was thrilling that he actually responded to the message and he just said, oh, that's interesting. Can you tell me a little more? I think he was looking for some more proof. And then I ended up telling him like,
00:42:30
Speaker
who his mother is and who his like, from the family tree, I gave a lot more detail. And he then was felt comfortable enough to come clean and say, Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I donated in these times and in these places. And he said, the doctor had told him that he had had there had been some boys that had been birthed from his donations. And he also had two sons that he raised with his wife.
00:42:56
Speaker
And he said, I'm thrilled to know of a biological daughter and I want to know all about you. And here's my number. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That is incredible. It was really the best response I could have hoped for. And so we talked on the phone and I like answered the phone. He's like, Lindsay. And we just like, I mean, we just hit it off. We just chatted and I felt
00:43:25
Speaker
such an uncanny connection to him. And so we've since definitely stayed in touch. One thing that was also really wonderful about him that many donors from back in the day did not do was he was honest with his family. His wife knew he had donated, his sons knew he had donated. And that's the other aspect of that rejection that comes in for donor can see people when they do find their donor to reach out is they don't
00:43:54
Speaker
they don't have space to respond to this person because they are like, oh shoot, now I have to face the secret I kept for my life or the secret I kept for my kids. Yeah. And so there's a lot of pain with that, of course. And then there's a lot of, you know, people will say, the backlash that donor can see people get is like, hey, you need to respect that person. They donated anonymously and that's disrespectful to invade their privacy.
00:44:24
Speaker
And what feels really hard about that is the donor can see a person's like, I did not sign a contract. I never, ever gave my rights away to say, this is what I want. I had no say. And so here I am. And you know, we know about attachment. We know about what it is to, um, want to feel connected and understood and known and
00:44:49
Speaker
So there is a longing. I mean, we can say families are created by love and I absolutely believe that. And it just also does not dismiss the fact that genetics are also important. Absolutely.
00:45:01
Speaker
And so that is a lot of backlash that donor can see people get. And it's so hard to feel that, to feel people push back on them or make them feel bad that they are curious and want to know this genetic family. Yeah. Yeah. So how have you had the conversation with your own children? Because I'm sure so much of your experience, you're doing it differently than your mom did, obviously, because of there being
00:45:28
Speaker
more information and different resources and things like that. How, how have you and your wife decided to tell your children? Yeah, I love that question. Um, there are some books out there now. So we've, we've read some children's books, um, and probably around the age of about two and a half, we actually read the first story to our son. Um, and
00:45:52
Speaker
Also, we are super, super fortunate that in 2020, we got connected to the donor that we used through the sperm bank. And as well as the other families that used him too, we're connected to all of them and we are now connected to him and he is an absolutely incredible human being and has literally altered his entire life
00:46:19
Speaker
based on having us reach out and finding out that there's all these children and families that want to be connected to him. And he's also a big part of some of the advocacy that's happening now because he also feels a lot of mistrust with the industry. He feels like he was kind of misled in a lot of ways as well. And so our kids have met him. We've spent time with him.
00:46:47
Speaker
My youngest was not even one the first time that he got to meet him. He has come to my oldest son's soccer game before. He went trick-or-treating with us Halloween. He has traveled all around the world actually visiting other
00:47:06
Speaker
of his biological children because we've all been really open and we want our children to know. One thing that I feel distinctly different about my experience versus my kids is getting to meet or talk with my, I've never actually met in person my biological father yet, but talking to him on the phone, it was really amazing and incredible.
00:47:28
Speaker
And yet there's this difference of getting to know somebody when you're a child versus when you're an adult. And there's this ease with kids, right? Like there's just this way of like, if you just play with them and interact with them, you have this connection. And so that's what my kids are getting. They're not having this barrier of like overthinking adults trying to like learn how to connect. It's like this chance to really be able to just
00:47:53
Speaker
be known at such a young age. And so I'm so happy for my kids. We have pictures of him and them together around the house. We talk about, oh yeah, those blue eyes, you got those from him. And you know. Oh, that's incredible. They have such context. My son will say sometimes like something that he notices that he's doing interesting or well, and he'll say, I wonder if I got that from, and I'm just not saying his name, but we call him his name.
00:48:20
Speaker
And I say, yeah, you know what? I think you probably did get that from him. And so we just really validate that experience that they are connected to him, that there are parts of themselves that are like him. And so he's this really cool part of our world now. And I'm just so thrilled for my kids to have that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:42
Speaker
Um, and it's really different than what, what I got and what a lot of other people got. Um, yeah, what a beautiful experience for sure. Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, and that's one other final note too, about like language that people use. Um, every donor person is different on how they refer to this donor. So some people like to say donors, some people like to say biological father, some people like to say,
00:49:09
Speaker
Some people, I mean, there's just a lot of different names that people use. And I think in interacting, whether you're the therapist or a friend of that person, just use the language that they use. Yeah, I like that. That's one of the recommendations. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:26
Speaker
You know, that, that leads me to another question that I was going to ask, which is, how do we better support this community?
Supporting Donor-Conceived Individuals
00:49:34
Speaker
Specifically, what are some things not to say? Something that we want to not say is that you need to respect their privacy. Yes. Yes. Please don't say that. I mean, you, you, you might think it, and I understand people think that it's sort of a knee-jerk reaction, but, um,
00:49:53
Speaker
That's a big one. That's a really big one. That's a really big one. Yeah. I know we talked on the phone a little bit too about people with really well-intended people that make comments that the intention might be comfort. Yeah. But it kind of has the opposite effect. Yeah. Can you tell us about those? Yeah. I think, you know,
00:50:21
Speaker
Personally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to jump down people's throats who might just be trying to be supportive and not really know how to do that. But I know for other donor advocacy people, and even myself, there has been some of that feeling of people trying to say something, but it comes off as the impact feels hurtful. And so some of those things are like, will your dad still your dad? I was like, yeah, of course he is. I know that.
00:50:51
Speaker
Like, we're not debating that. Yes, we're not debating that at all. And or things like, well, you're, you know, that's still your family, nothing's changed. Wait, actually, a lot has changed. A lot has changed, right? Like, my whole identity has been, like, kind of lost and thrown in the air and twisted around and like, so to feel those comments that are meant to sort of be encouraging or supportive and understandably so it also is dismissive.
00:51:21
Speaker
You know, absolutely. Yeah. The full experience. Um, and, and so that has definitely been that, uh, other people, um, donor can see people have commented on, um, maybe even therapists or just other people saying things to them about like, well, your parents loved you and they wanted you and you're here. So like, what more could you ask for kind of thing?
00:51:46
Speaker
And again, that's just sort of dismissive. I'm not saying that they didn't love me and want me and fight fiercely to have me, but I'm saying that there's also layers of this that still impact me and I want to be able to express that. And a lot of times people feel like they have to tiptoe or they're worried about hurting their parents' feelings by being curious or wanting to connect to their genetic family. And so as far as like recipient parents,
00:52:16
Speaker
them being super explicit on being supportive and saying, like, my role in your life is not threatened by you wanting to go explore these genetic connections. And that takes work, though. That takes work as a recipient parent to get to that place and not feel threatened by that. Right. Right. And so, yeah, I think I think there's there's certainly work with that.
00:52:40
Speaker
And just normalizing that. There was actually a survey that We Are Donor Conceived did. They surveyed 481 donor conceived adults. And 90% reported that it was important for them to know the identity of donor siblings. And 89% said that it was important for them to know the identity of the donor. So this is not some outlier person who just wants to know. A majority of people in this situation
00:53:09
Speaker
want to know this information. And I don't think there's any reason they should feel bad for wanting to know that. It's so natural and normal to want to know and respond to these genetic connections.
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like so many times people can just be so uncomfortable with seeing someone that they love in any kind of pain. Yeah. And so when we make comments like, no, you're so loved. You're so wanted. Your family doesn't change. They're essentially saying, please be okay. Please don't have a negative emotion. We don't want to see you go through that. Yeah.
00:53:52
Speaker
And always what is more helpful is to say you're human and you're going to have hard emotions. How can I support you through it? Not try to change it. Sure. I love that. I agree a hundred percent that that's, that's so much more helpful to approach it that way and to give space for the pain to be there, pain, you know, sadness and pain and grief. That's not, it doesn't have to just all be pushed away. Like,
00:54:20
Speaker
to just tolerate and hold it together with this. And it doesn't also mean that their whole family life is awful, or that they hate their parents, or that everything's broken. It just means I have to have the chance to hold both of these things together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So that leads me into another question. Your work.
00:54:45
Speaker
How as a therapist do you approach this in therapy? Because if someone is either considering going down this road or they're currently on it or they're decades removed, like no matter where they are in this journey, as a therapist, how do you help people work through all the different conflicting, confusing waves of grief and waves of emotion that come at different points of life? How do you help clients with that? Yeah, that's a great question.
00:55:16
Speaker
It takes a lot of centering my own experience. Of course, as therapists, we try not to impose our own experiences in Cloud Dot with the support that we give to clients. And yet, I'm also always torn with this knowledge of best practices for approaching these things and understanding the trauma that comes with some of this if it's not addressed in the best way.
00:55:47
Speaker
I really just, one, absolutely hold space for their grief because most of them are on the end of like the side of navigating infertility, right? And so just so much validation for that, so much space for that, the pain of that, the agony of, and the disappointment of trying and it not happening and just this endless cycle of disappointment, really.
00:56:18
Speaker
There have been times where I have been able to share some personal tidbits here and there that it appears clients have felt have been helpful to kind of understand. And in some ways, it's just as a reassurance that there is a way to navigate this with the least amount of pain, so to speak, I guess.
00:56:45
Speaker
And so that I feel like can be helpful. And then, you know, I definitely implement like parts language and talking about how, you know, part of you is feeling this way. And then this other part of you is feeling this and kind of navigating how they can hold that. And that seems to kind of help kind of ease some of the intensity of when one part feels like it's just overtaking the entire situation.
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I'm big into parts work as well. And so I love to hear other clinicians talk about how they use it, because I want more people to know about it. Like I feel like some sorts of some types of therapy are just really common and they're known about the parts work is where it's at. Oh, yes, I'm a big fan. And I've done a lot of my own work as well as a client.
Reflecting on the Journey and Advocacy
00:57:35
Speaker
diving into my own parts and even just around this, around things from my own personal story and identity as well. It's so interesting because you have
00:57:49
Speaker
You have your story, you have your clients, you have your advocacy work that you're doing for it. And I feel like because of your personal story, you are able to show up in these spaces in such a different way. And I just, I commend you for it. And anytime people use their own pain to help others, right? That's just such a beautiful thing that you're doing. Yeah. Thank you, Julie.
00:58:16
Speaker
Um, before we wrap up today, I want to ask you one last question. It's the questions that, um, I ask everyone and the reason why is because I'm so into parts work. Yeah. And so I think so much about the work that I do on my inner child. And I love hearing other therapists thoughts on this, but if you could go back to your younger self with all of your life experience and everything that you know, know about yourself, what's one piece of advice or one thing that you would want your younger self to know?
00:58:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you kind of gave me this question at a time because it like hit me right in the heart when I saw that the other day and I thought, oh, oh, this one feels so important. And I thought on it and I feel so tender to think of that younger part of me when I think of saying this almost brings up emotion for me right now. Yeah.
00:59:11
Speaker
And what I think I would want to say is that you will find and live your truth. You will find and live your truth. Yeah. And that just feels so important to the secrets from my family being revealed and even my identity as a queer woman, like, yeah, just just so many different ways that that applies to my life. But to be able to tell my own yourself, that feels
00:59:40
Speaker
It's just so comforting. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it's always, it's vulnerable to share, but it's so needed. I feel like people just connect and bond over stories. I just love it so much. So thank you so much for sharing that with us today. And before we jump off, how can people find you? I'm going to put a lot of information in the show notes about some of the resources that you have, but where can people find you either on social media or with your,
01:00:10
Speaker
counseling practice. Yeah. I want to make sure people can reach you. Thank you. Yeah. Um, I worked with, um, at key counseling group in Atlanta, Georgia. Um, and so I'm currently, I actually see clients all virtual, um, clients that are in Georgia or Florida. I'm licensed in both those States. And so, um, key counseling, atl.com is the website there, which I know you'll link. And then, um, us DCC.org.
01:00:38
Speaker
is more about the US Donor Conceived Council. So I'm also connected there as well. So I would love for anybody to reach out. I'm totally open to that. And also, you know, to any of my clients that might have been listening, you know, I know I can feel some kind of way maybe to learn more, maybe more intimate details about your therapist. And so I just want them to feel okay to bring it up or discuss it with me if there's anything that they want to
01:01:08
Speaker
kind of share or talk through and I'm open to that. Absolutely. Again, thank you so much for being here. That's all we have for you today. We will talk to you guys later. Bye. Thanks.
01:01:21
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of outside of session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.