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Psychedelics in Mental Health: Friend of Foe? Part 2
275 Plays8 months ago
In Part Two of the season finale, we're continuing the conversation about psychedelic-assisted therapy. Whether you're a skeptic or curious explorer, this is an episode you won't want to miss! Julie sits down with Laura Mullis to discuss her professional encounters with plant-based medicines like psilocybin and Ayahuasca. Together, they explore the potential benefits and ethical considerations surrounding this unconventional therapeutic approach.
About today's guest:
Laura Mullis has been working in the healing profession for 15 years. For the past 10 years she has been on a quest to find the fastest way to help people heal with the least amount of suffering. In recent years this quest has brought her into the field of psychedelics. In this podcast she shares her knowledge, experience and sometimes personal opinion in her role as a psychedelic coach on the topic of psychedelics in mental health
Resources:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VNzkOqRlnuL8WDRlRPeIxQaymOuviKoEraB332GvEaw/edit?usp=sharing
Get in touch with Laura:
https://www.triumph-center.net/
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 2
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
Personal Growth through Podcasting
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello friends and welcome back. Today I am equal parts excited for today's episode because of this topic and sad that this is the last one of the season and also grateful for each and every one of you who has tuned in. Before we jump in, I want to just share what an amazing experience this has been for me both personally and professionally this season.
00:01:18
Speaker
I'm still new to this whole podcast thing and I'm learning a ton about myself through it, about my own insecurities and anxieties and even my own imposter syndrome. But with each day, I'm gaining more confidence especially because of how awesome all of my guests have been this entire season.
00:01:37
Speaker
And I also feel like this has helped me to grow professionally in ways that I didn't actually expect.
Diversity in Mental Health Practices
00:01:43
Speaker
Mainly because it's such a good reminder that mental health care is not an exact science and every clinician that you meet is going to have a little bit of their own style mixed in with a combination of their own trainings and life experience.
00:01:59
Speaker
And that's one thing that has really helped me I think as a clinician is to have confidence in the way that I do things. Knowing that even if it's different from the way someone else does something that it's still okay. And I've seen that throughout this season how different our styles are and still
00:02:18
Speaker
how that is so helpful for our different clients. So I just want to say thank you to all the clinicians who were brave and vulnerable enough to come on and share their experience and their expertise and just for each and every one of them to know that they are making a difference in the lives of their clients and hopefully in your life as well as a listener.
Exploring Psychedelics in Therapy
00:02:42
Speaker
But I guess we do have to go ahead and jump into this very last episode of the season as I continue my conversation with Laura Mullis about psychedelics and mental health care. Obviously, if you didn't get a chance to listen to last week's episode, go back and catch up on that one before you listen to today's episode. And of course, if you have any questions or comments or ideas for service, please reach out and keep in touch until the next season.
00:03:13
Speaker
We titled this podcast, psychedelics and mental health friend or foe. So I want to talk to you about the foe piece, right? Yeah. And I wouldn't necessarily say it's foe as much as it is expectations, right? Because I've had some people who had a lot of stuff that they had not dealt with in their life.
00:03:40
Speaker
Okay, they they some of which I worked with on a conscious level and we cleaned a lot up, but there was just a lot there. They did not They had a pressed reprint whatever you want to call it. It was there. And I remember that this person looked at me once and said, When is the fun gonna happen. Yeah. And I'm like, That's not necessarily
00:04:03
Speaker
what this is about. I mean, you can go on the internet and read about people in their journeys and they'll often tell you like, oh, it solved my depression and it helped me have self-love.
Facing Internal Darkness in Psychedelic Journeys
00:04:13
Speaker
And I saw that we're all connected and I saw about, I now understand impermanence. And so I'm not scared to die. Like they didn't get there probably in one session. If they did, they are the minority, not the majority. I'm glad to hear you say that because I think that gives people like reasonable expectations, right? Yes.
00:04:33
Speaker
I'm like, you know, some people have had, so part of the plant medicine work in indigenous cultures is shadow work. So, you know, Carl Jung said that we all have shadows, which is basically our unconscious impulses, desires, and repressed memories that basically run everything we do. Okay. You think you run your life, but your unconscious runs your life. And until you deal with your shadows, they are running your life. And so what plant medicines do is they put you face to face with your shadows first.
00:05:02
Speaker
OK, for most people, some people take on and they get this.
00:05:07
Speaker
go to the stars, meet God, but those are not the majority, I'm telling you. But does that also have to do with what their intentions were coming into this? Because when you were saying some of the intentions to start with, going on with the intentions of, I want to know what my block is, I feel like that is going in with the intentions of, I'm ready to face some heavy, hard shit.
00:05:34
Speaker
yes versus if your intentions going in is I want to feel like the next level of love or something like that like I feel like that would that kind of determines the path too right yeah but sometimes in order to feel the next level of love you have to feel the next level of what's darkness that's causing you to like avoid love avoid love so sometimes even though you set an intention that's like so you know sometimes I've had people who as were like
00:06:04
Speaker
doing the process. We'll just say all I want tonight is for Iowa's going to take it easy on me. I just want rainbows and unicorns. Just be easy. And then they sling into all the ways that they destroy fun in their life.
00:06:25
Speaker
You know, like, I want to have fun. And then it's like, okay, you want to have fun, but you need to look at all the ways that you want. You, you are attached to suffering. Like all the ways you're attached to suffering and you're never going to have fun as long as you're living in suffering, which by the way, so many people are attached to suffering. That's a whole nother podcast, but so what I'm saying is that they can seem like foe. If you go in thinking that I'm going to take this.
00:06:52
Speaker
psilocybin i'm gonna take this lsd or i'm gonna take this in dma i'm gonna take this and it's gonna show me how great i am and it's gonna show me how lovable i am and it's gonna show me you know exactly what i'm supposed to do in my life it's gonna show me all these great glorious things i'm gonna go to the heavens and you know slide down rainbows and jump from star to star and no yeah that that that could happen for a bit of your journey not
00:07:18
Speaker
You know, that looks like different for people. But at the end of the day, what it's really doing is it doesn't take you straight to your shadow stuff. And your shadow stuff is what's blocking you from the rainbows and the stars. So it's not bad. Right. The core is that you are lovable and worthy. Yes.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yes. But you get in your own way. And so this is showing you all the blocks and all the shadows, like you're saying, of why you've been conditioned to... It's like you have to look at your demons first, right? You have to come face to face with them. And then if you use that the way that it's intended, you'll be able to get on the other side of it if you don't run from it and let it continue to...
00:08:09
Speaker
like lay claim to your life. Yeah. And you know, I tell people when they call and they're like, I want to do a journey. And I'm like, what do you want? I want to, you know, be at peace with myself. I'm like, okay, you're asking plant meds to take you in three days. What would take 10 years of therapy? Right. Right. And I'm, I'm, I believe that ayahuasca in particular could do this. Yeah. However, you need to strap your seatbelt in.
00:08:39
Speaker
Right. It is going to be a ride because you're about to compress 10 years into three days. Now, I'm not saying that, you know, ayahuasca is different because it has the purge effect and purging gets stuff out. But, um, the, I'm not saying that you have to go through everything you would have to in 10 day, 10 years, but like the intensity of it can feel pretty dang intense. You know, it can feel intense. So I
Preparation for Psychedelic Experiences
00:09:02
Speaker
guess I'm saying that the, the people who.
00:09:07
Speaker
Like the other day, I'm on a psychedelic group and this one girl, I was asking people like, what's your biggest fear about using psilocybin therapeutically? And she was like, portals being opened up. And I'm like, what are you talking about? So I was like, could you say more? She's like, well, I'm just worried. I have friends who did it. And then they had all this bad stuff attack them because portals were opened up. And I'm like, no, that's their shit. That's their stuff. That's their shadows.
00:09:38
Speaker
And so a lot of people want to say, Oh, it's portals and it's this energy and it's this presence that attacked me. And like, no, in some way, shape or form, it's your stuff because nothing can attack you unless you have, unless it, unless it matches you. You know what I'm saying? Like it can't happen. So in some way, shape or form, the medicine was trying to show them.
00:09:59
Speaker
this is what you need to deal with. It didn't like show them at two with something happening to them. It showed it in some other way. And if they had had the relationship with the medicine said, take me deeper, show me what else there is, the medicine would have done that. They wanted to pull out and say, oh, these are terrible things. I open you up to energetic attacks and portals. And I'm like, no, no, no, you had, you did not have good preparation. But do you also think that that is people, um,
00:10:29
Speaker
when they get a glimpse of their shadows.
00:10:36
Speaker
and like the pain or the darkness or however you wanna describe it, the things that like, I think the average person would say, yeah, I probably have some shit back there. But when you come face to face with it and you actually have to see it, if people are so overwhelmed and terrified of it, do you think that that's what that is, is that they pull out too fast and they kind of say like, no, that's bad and then blame it on the medicine? Do you feel like that's what is happening?
00:11:04
Speaker
Yes. That happens to some people. So one thing we talk about in preparation is that the people who get the best results are people who can go in and say, and that was supposed to happen. Whatever happens in the journey, like in some way, shape or form, this was supposed to happen. I just need to unpack why. Right. And what I've found, I mean, as a, as, as somebody who's done therapy with, I mean,
00:11:33
Speaker
I've done some stuff in my therapeutic life, right? With people and helping them get out of some horrificness. Like that's not even the word for what I've heard in my time with people. What I have found is truth is stabilizing. Truth is stabilizing. All right. So it might in the moment hit you and be like, Oh my gosh, this is like rearranging all the pieces on my chess board. I thought life was this and it's really this.
00:12:04
Speaker
But once your initial shock and that initial pain and the grief, cause that's one thing you will do on plant meds too is have some deep, deep emotions like you've not had, but that needs to happen. You need to get all that junk out of you. Um, so once, once, once that initial shock wears off, it is stabilizing. Like it's like, okay, now things make sense. And now I feel better. Like in my body, I feel better because this thing,
00:12:33
Speaker
that I've been trying to work so hard to avoid, I've now faced and I can integrate it and make it a part of like my life story and it didn't kill me. I can own it. And like my life makes sense now. So I think that that's why the preparation piece is so important because in the preparation, we also temper expectations. So, you know, like,
00:13:01
Speaker
Yeah, you could have this Galactical, Magical, God Union event. However, it's more likely
Course Introduction for Psychedelic Integration
00:13:12
Speaker
you're going to come face to face with some things that you need to face in order to evolve to your next level. And if you can see it that way, then you can face it, integrate it, and you'll see on the other side of it you feel better.
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. And then you'll be ready to do it again. I think that's a good thing for people to hear is that this is that the good stuff might come weeks later after you have time to sit with it, integrate it, process through it. Like you will understand the purpose of why that, why that needed to happen. Yes. Potentially much later. Yes. And if you have a therapist helping you work on whatever it is,
00:14:00
Speaker
And, you know, it's not necessarily like, like, for instance, if, if a person does like a three day journey, um, the first night might be shadow. The second night might be shadow. The third night, they might get some of the other stuff, you know, I'm saying it's, I think it's also about. Intention in your mind is very interesting, like knows how much time you have to do something. So.
00:14:25
Speaker
you were just doing a one-day solo journey. In that journey, you might get a little shadow and then some of the other like stuff. I mean, it just depends on what you're ingesting because the two that I am most versed in are mushrooms and ayahuasca. And they're just two different energies that do two different things. They come to the same kind of result, not really. I mean, ayahuasca would, so I tell people, I'm like, if you want to understand the universe and how everything's connected, take some mushrooms. If you want to understand you,
00:14:56
Speaker
And what's standing, you take some ayahuasca because she takes you straight into you. Whereas mushrooms kind of like can have that, Oh my gosh, everything makes sense. Oh, you know, and then, then at the end can take you more into you. So anyways, but the point is that, um, I'm not saying it would come days or weeks later. Sometimes it comes in the same journey, but if you get stuck and bogged down in the anxiety and the fear of the shadow stuff that's coming up in the six hours,
00:15:24
Speaker
you'll stay there. And that's when you have a bad trip. You see what I'm saying? As opposed to going into it, feeling it, maybe working with the part who shows up or just letting that, like not even understanding sometimes and just letting the emotions come out and just cleansing and purging, whatever. And then at the end you get kind of the good stuff. So it's not even like days or weeks later, it's just accepting that we all have shadow stuff. The medicine is made first and foremost to bring your shadow stuff up.
00:15:54
Speaker
And then to have the kind of transcendental experiences. So. That's overwhelming, even as a therapist to think about. I know. Because I probably know a fraction of what you know, as far as watching people come face to face.
00:16:24
Speaker
Because right, like you're on this accelerated path. Like path, when, when people take this, like they, it comes to them where in traditional therapy, what I'm doing, like sometimes it can take months and years to be able to tap into what's behind there. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's intense to do an in-person journey with me as a five figure investment, right? And people pay it. And there is a moment during every journey.
00:16:51
Speaker
where I look at them and say, I am not getting paid enough for this. And they look at me and say, I can't believe I'm paying you for this. And we know we've hit pay dirt. Like it's that moment where we know we've hit pay dirt. We're right where we need to be. Yeah. Yeah. So do an intensives prepare me for this, because when you sit with somebody for three days in their pain,
00:17:20
Speaker
You can get them a lot deeper than an hour a week, but that's a whole nother podcast. But you know, I just think this was the natural evolution for me.
00:17:29
Speaker
Yeah. So what Laura was just talking about with intensive, she does, um, intensive therapy, like EMDR, that kind of stuff for three days, mostly ego state therapy, ego state therapy. And a lot of therapists do this. Um, where instead of booking, like, like she said, like a one hour typical, a week session, you book several hours in one day and you try to like, it's intensive because you knock out as much as you can at one time.
00:17:54
Speaker
But one thing I did want you to share about is that you're putting together a course and by the time this episode releases, it might actually already be out, but to help people with that preparation and the integration part, right? Like you're going to end up doing courses for both of those? You know, one thing that I have been feeling called to do is to be more involved in this space.
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, you might've heard me mentioned just a minute ago that I do offer in-person journeys. You know, that's a very small part of my business and selective about that. And it's five figures. So a lot of people cannot afford, we're talking over 10,000, like a lot of people can't afford five figures to do this. So, but as I was thinking about what I want to offer,
00:18:48
Speaker
to the world, I know that what I do to prepare people for a journey, me and my business partner do to prepare people for a journey and to help them integrate their journey would be helpful to anybody who is looking to do a journey, either solo or with like a trip sitter or with a facilitator.
00:19:15
Speaker
we kind of put our heads together and said, how could we reach more people for less money, right? Like them pay less money. So what we've decided and we're working on right now is a course it's called Zillogistic. I can't say it right now, but it's like synergistic but syllogistic because it's about you and the medicine working together. And so it's a course to help people prepare for their psychedelic journey or their plant medicine journey, right?
00:19:43
Speaker
And so in it, we would kind of teach all the things we would teach a person who had paid the five figures to come and do the in-person journey. And we're working on that right now. Hope to have it out by the first of the year. And then we will also be working on the integration course. Probably March, we'll have that out.
00:20:02
Speaker
And so, you know, the goal would be if people could source their own product, meaning find psilocybin, for psilocybin. Iowaska is just too hard to find. And so you don't need to do that on your own. You need to do that with somebody true. So psilocybin, because trust me, so psilocybin is one that is much easier to get a hold of. So we think, well, more people would be probably ready to start there and
00:20:27
Speaker
So they could take this course, prepare themselves for it. As part of the course, we would have some coaching calls that we offer. So like calls you can get on and ask your questions, things like that. Um, and so that you feel as supported as we can through this process, you know? And so that's kind of what we'll be launching about the time the podcast comes out. So if it's launched, then you can see the link at the bottom of the podcast, check it out, see if it's something you might be interested in.
00:20:56
Speaker
We'd love to have you. Yeah, definitely. Hey, everyone. I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session. If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:21:28
Speaker
So I'm even thinking with that, are there any, um, I don't know, like cautionary, not necessarily cautionary tales, but are there things that aren't necessarily on the foe side, but it's more just, if anybody is going, if anybody is interested, these are the, maybe not disclaimer. I don't know what I'm thinking.
Safety and Professional Guidance in Psychedelic Use
00:21:53
Speaker
Oh yeah. No, there's disclaimers. Number one, unfortunately you can't be on your psych meds.
00:21:59
Speaker
Okay. So because, um, the way that plant medicines work is they hit your serotonin receptors. So I'm not saying you can't be on all, it's better to come off of all psych meds if you can, but that's with you and your psychiatrist working on it. Um, we've had people who did that. They, their psychiatrist very willingly took them off in order for them to come do this experience, you know? Um, and so, but if you're definitely on any SSRIs or even trisodone, cause I had somebody who didn't think that was an SSRI and that
00:22:27
Speaker
that we learned our lesson let's put it that way so you know you you the you got to come off of your psych meds unfortunately because you can get what's called serotonin syndrome that's not good also if you are in a space where you are environmentally unstable if that makes sense like you are your environment is just not safe so you're an abusive relationship you
00:22:58
Speaker
There are things that is just a part of the global setting that might need to be considered before you embark on a solo journey. However, some people might not be able to get out of that space unless they have some type of journey. Also, a therapist, like please, before you decide to go into this space and work on it, work on yourself with this medicine, have a therapist that you trust and that
00:23:28
Speaker
like knows how to go deeper than just talking about your week. Okay. And, and coping skills. I call them glorified oppression, but please have somebody who knows how to deal with the opening up type stuff. Right. Because you want that before you embark on this. But the big, the big thing that kind of, I guess is our, um, um,
00:23:57
Speaker
kind of rule out criteria is like, if people are on site meds, I'm like, well, you got to come off of those in order to do this. Because, you know, that's, that's literally putting you at risk. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say. Yeah. And I can't, you know, recommend how to do that. I can't say, but you would talk to your psychiatrist. If we ever put you on the site meds about tapering down, is it a taper process? Yeah.
00:24:27
Speaker
And so just to, I guess people who are listening to this and saying, but I can't come off my psych meds. I lose my mind when I come off my psych meds. We've had other people who were in the same space, but they said, Andy psych meds are really not doing it for me anymore. So I got to try something different. They work with their psychiatrist. They came off their psych meds. And when they got done with their journey, they have not been back on them. Wow.
00:24:55
Speaker
they did not go back on their site meds. And one person came to us smoking marijuana daily. And marijuana is something that I'm like, yeah, come on, try not to do it within the first however long before. There's diet too. There's all this stuff that kind of can make the experience more rich. And so try not to do it like a few days before. She was also on ADHD meds.
00:25:19
Speaker
and she didn't take them. They're not as long acting as some of your other meds. So she didn't have to come off of those as far back. She could come off of those closer to her journey. Anyway, the point is that after one night, she was smoking marijuana three, four times a day just to not kill herself, honestly. And after the first night, she was like, I don't want any of it anymore. I don't want marijuana.
00:25:49
Speaker
the Adderall, she was like, I'm done. And we still stay in contact with her. And she was like the other day, she was like, damn it, I tried to smoke some marijuana and it just is not my thing anymore. She's like, I didn't imagine a life where I was going to live sober most of the time. She's like, but it's just, she's like, I just, you just can't do it. Once you felt the high vibration of ayahuasca and psilocybin, you kind of like feel marijuana and you're like,
00:26:20
Speaker
It's not interested. It's a point. Yeah, it's not. I'm not interested so it's It's it's a big leap to kind of come off your meds to do it and at the same time You'll get the most benefit and most people who do that don't go back on their site meds. Yeah, that's really incredible Because it's incredible. I think what's really important for people to hear is that
00:26:45
Speaker
There is a safe way to do this, but you can't jump into it uneducated and with someone who doesn't know how to safely administer it and that there's like so many other things, there's a lot to consider.
00:27:01
Speaker
But if it's done the right way, the benefits can be almost like miraculous, right? Like in all your years of therapy, you're able to do this in a way. And I think that because I've known you for so long and I knew you during the years when you were like, you were the therapist that was like, absolutely not, right? And to see you on your own journey of like everything that you've learned and how much you've evolved in so many different ways, which we should do a whole nother episode on just like,
00:27:33
Speaker
what it means to like really embrace life. You know what I mean? And find your happiness and all that. Oh, well I should because it requires getting out of martyrdom, but that's a whole other concept that I'd have to spend an hour on. But I would like to do it because that would go with my other website. We'll do a whole other episode on that. But to see even hear someone like you say,
00:27:57
Speaker
as much therapy as you've done with people over the years and as much like the intensives that you've done. And I've learned a ton from you about that kind of stuff too, for you to say that this is, has the ability to offer elements of healing like none other. That's just really like, that blows my mind just because I know you. Yeah. Let me just, just so people know, I'm not trying to brag on myself, but I have probably spent $300,000 in trainings.
00:28:23
Speaker
She's not exaggerating. I'm not exaggerating either, probably more than that if I totaled up. Every time I talk to Laura, every time I talk to Laura for the past decade, I'm like, what are you doing this weekend? And it is always, I'm flying here to do some kind of like $10,000 training. And I'm always like, I don't get it. But some of it was always, my goal was always like, how can I help people heal in the fastest way possible with the least amount of suffering?
00:28:53
Speaker
because suffering got you into this and Einstein says you can't solve a problem from the same level at which it was created. So we can't just make you suffer for years on end and think that's going to get you better. Einstein is very smart.
00:29:12
Speaker
Um, you know, I'm not saying that I'm done evolving as a healer, you know, I don't even think I'm a there. I'm a healer, but I do feel like, you know, I've spent three, about $300,000 on trainings and I'm the person who, when somebody doesn't know what to do with somebody, they say, go see Laura. Yep. Absolutely. Because like I have worked with some of the most complex cases and when I saw what
00:29:38
Speaker
The med, cause when you're working with the medicine as a therapist, you are not the therapist. The medicine is the therapist. Yeah. Like the medicine is the, I am the co-therapist. Right. And so when I saw what they can do, I was like, this is just a no brainer for me. Yeah. You know, it's, I think you, it's not, like I've said, it's not necessarily one hammer for every nail.
00:30:06
Speaker
but there are certain people who just won't get there unless they have something like this. But I'm also hearing you say that you have worked with some of the most complex, um, and we're, we're talking about systems. We're talking about traumas. We're talking about, um, the programming that you're talking about, but I'm talking about like people who like came out of
00:30:30
Speaker
It's like, damn it, cults and stuff. Like people who, yeah, cult stuff, you know? But that's not the average listener. So is the, I don't want the average listener to hear like, Oh, well that's not anywhere near my story. No, no, no, no. I'll tell you who plant meds are best for. Yeah. That was going to be my question. Yeah. So plant meds are, are kind of like the people who I would say, okay, you might need to go there faster than another person. People who are stuck in this.
00:30:59
Speaker
kind of like self-critical monologue perfectionism, over-performing, kind of a type A perfectionist, almost on the boardal obsessive thought process, almost on the borderline of OCD type people. Cause really and truly I've done a lot of work and a lot of training. I can't do nothing with OCD. All right. It is tough to treat on a cognitive level.
00:31:25
Speaker
And so people who are running like down that kind of track in their, their default mode network is so rigid, so rigid. They have to have something about quite as intense come in and like dismantle that. So it's like these kinds of these feet and, and, and, and Julie, let's get, let's be honest. Cause I've talked to other therapists. They're the hardest ones to work with on a cognitive level.
00:31:55
Speaker
because everything you give them is kind of like a rebuttal, but that won't work because, but that won't work because, but that won't work because, well, that works for everybody but me. And it's not their fault, it's their default mode network way of like, we're not gonna hope in anything because all this hope has caused us to wind up feeling worthless and hopeless and like we're never gonna be redeemed. So, yeah. So those are, that's really and truly the person who I feel like
00:32:26
Speaker
you're listening to this and you're like, that's me, then you might need to kind of inch your way towards plant meds faster than most. Yeah. No, I think that's good to know. That's good to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like the people who have the other stuff that I'm talking about, the really, really complex, like I would not take them to plant meds for, I probably wouldn't because like too much could unleash it once that makes sense.
00:32:52
Speaker
but honestly the common person listening. And this is like the world we live in, right? A lot of people are developing this. What I've told people is like since COVID, people who have that type of like viewpoint of the world in themselves are more likely seeking therapy because COVID just about just made their anxiety so bad they can't live with it anymore. And so it's like, they're showing up more in therapy rooms now and therapists are kind of,
00:33:21
Speaker
you know, unless you treat OCD, which is a very methodical process, or some are, yeah, because it's obsessive thinking. So unless you treat that, it's really hard to get through to it. And the problem is, if you try to do trauma processing, it makes it worse. It makes it worse.
Future of MDMA in Therapy
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, you have that obsessive thought process, the OCD, and people try to work on the trauma with you, it can make that process worse. Yeah, yeah.
00:33:50
Speaker
So, um, I guess the last thing I would say is that if you follow the field, then what is in clinical trials right now is MDMA, which is basically street names, ecstasy, Molly, and you know, that probably won't be FDA approved for who knows. I mean, it's in stage three clinical trials, so it could be in the next year. They always say that next year, but then it gets pushed to another year because there's a lot that has to happen for something to get
00:34:20
Speaker
FDA approved and then you know find a therapist that does it and all that stuff so What I guess what I'm saying is that if you feel called to do this That your soul knows that this is what you're supposed to do And the way your soul calls to you when you're supposed to do something is it will start showing up in your reality So when people Like I tell people
00:34:50
Speaker
who I work with, I'm never going to be the one to tell you to go do ayahuasca. Right. Right. Because ayahuasca is very powerful. And if she is supposed to, she's a grandmother, so she's a she energy. If she is supposed to be something you use, she will show up in your reality multiple ways. You'll just be going through Facebook and they'll be like, here's ayahuasca retreat. You'll just be like,
00:35:19
Speaker
She will show up. You'll read about her in magazines or like in random ways, she'll show up. So, so is it with like the other side, they will show up in your reality to the point where it's like, okay, this is definitely guiding me in that direction. So it's not necessarily even like you have to have the be stuck in therapy and I can't get through and I get like, those are people who probably need to think about doing it sooner rather than later.
00:35:46
Speaker
But some people, because your soul is calling you to evolve, it will bring it into your reality in different ways, and you're probably supposed to do it. I might be the first person to introduce it to you. I'm not saying go do it based off of me, but if it keeps showing up months, weeks, years down the road, it's probably supposed to be part of your soul journey. Yeah, I love that. All right, thank you so much for sharing all of this. I have a feeling people are gonna have a lot of questions.
00:36:15
Speaker
So if we get enough questions, we're gonna have to come back next season and do a whole nother episode with a ton of questions about it. But I will make sure to put in the show notes Laura's information so that you can reach out to her. And I'll definitely link the, put the link for her courses in there. So if you want to investigate some of those. But you know what, before we go, I wanna ask you the question that I ask all of my guests on the way out. And I have a feeling that your answer is gonna be really insightful. But if you could go back at this point in your journey,
00:36:45
Speaker
If you could go back to your younger self and tell her one thing, what would it be? I would tell her you had it all figured out from the beginning. You had it figured out. If you look at kids, kids are very smart. They know when they're hungry and they know when they're not. They know if they don't like, what's the first thing they do? They kick their shoes off. I don't want these shoes.
00:37:15
Speaker
That's because we're supposed to be in the grass. We're supposed to be grounded. Kids know. And then we teach them they don't know. So I'm like, you knew. You knew. And you knew what was going on. And you were right. That's what I tell her. I like that. Say, none wrong with you. I didn't hear that.
00:37:38
Speaker
So yeah, I hope everybody enjoyed this episode and I hope everybody learned a lot. I just, I have a feeling that a lot of people are intrigued. Um, so yeah, we're going to circle back around and we're going to keep having this conversation, but that is, that is all we have today. Thank you so much. Join. Thank you everybody for listening. Yeah, absolutely. We'll talk to you guys later. Bye.
00:38:02
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for media assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifelife.