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Couples Counseling 101
2 Playsin 18 hours
In this episode, we dive into what it truly takes to build and maintain a successful relationship, with a special focus on how couples counseling can play a pivotal role. With couples expert, Allison Caffyn, we explore essential components like effective communication, emotional vulnerability, trust-building, and conflict resolution. Our discussion highlights the tools and strategies that therapists use to help couples understand each other’s needs and navigate life’s challenges together. Whether you're seeking ways to strengthen your relationship or simply curious about the dynamics of long-lasting partnerships, this episode offers valuable insights into creating a resilient and fulfilling relationship.
About Allison:
Allison Caffyn is a senior psychotherapist with over 25 years of experience. She specializes in body-centered psychotherapy and couples therapy. She has extensive couples training in the Gottman method, Terry Reals' real-life therapy, and Sue Johnson’s emotionally focused therapy. For Allison, couples work is a highly personal passion stemming from her struggles with intimacy and difficulties she experienced in her 36-year partnership with her husband, Wayne. Her passion is helping couples discover the joy of deep intimacy, safe connection, and relational equity in long-term partnerships.
Connect:
https://www.thecouplescollege.com/allie-caffyn/
info@thecouplescollege.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 3 and Episode Focus
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back to Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. Season three is all about navigating life's challenges and finding balance. We're continuing the conversations around mental health and I'm once again joined by expert guests who share their stories and tips and hopes to inspire you on your journey of healing and growth.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hi everyone and welcome back to Outside of Session. Today we're going to be talking about marriage and relationships. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Allison Caffan to talk about how to create a successful long-term relationship, how to work through issues that naturally come up in relationships, and how working with a couple's therapist can benefit.
Meet the Expert: Allison Caffan
00:00:59
Speaker
Allie is a licensed professional counselor who has been in practice for more than 25 years, and she's the owner of the Couples College here in Atlanta. She's a passionate therapist who loves supporting couples and building loving and intimate relationships that last a lifetime. Regardless of your relationship status, I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learn from all that Allie had to share with me.
00:01:26
Speaker
Good morning, Allie. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you asking me to do this with you. Yeah, I'm really excited about this. You know, this is my third season of the podcast and I have yet to have someone on just to talk about couples, relationships, marriages.
The Importance of Couples Therapy
00:01:45
Speaker
um And that's such ah a big thing, a big part of our field that I feel like it's so long overdue for me to have somebody, you know, an expert to come in and talk about couples therapy.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think when we look at life, if we're in relationship, which many of us are in, um if our relationships aren't functioning, then frequently a lot of other things in our life aren't functioning, and we all come out of relationships. You know, we all come out of family systems. so and And so um understanding who I am as a partner also helps me understand who I was as a child in the family system I grew up in. So it's probably the foundation. In some ways, I think of couples therapy as being a foundation of really deeply understanding who you are in relationship to others in a way that you can't really do as much of an in individual work. That's more and interpersonal, you know,
00:02:39
Speaker
This is more like, I mean, that's more interpersonal. This is more interpersonal. Like how are we doing with each other? Yeah, absolutely. And you are, you have an organization called the Couples College, which I just love some of that so much. And so you were the perfect person for me to ask all of these questions too. yeah Yeah, we do. We have a wonderful organization.
Programs and Techniques for Relationship Struggles
00:03:00
Speaker
We do do individual adult work with people, um but we also do a lot of couples work. We also have a group called getting the get When Love Is Not Enough, which is looking at why we struggle in relationship, why most of us get stuck at some point, and then how that happens and then how to get out of it.
00:03:21
Speaker
um It's a fantastic group. If you look at the website, most of the reviews are actually about the group um because it's been so successful in helping couples with the foundation of what relationship is and how to build intimacy. We have eight practitioners at the group and a hypnotherapist that helps with helps people with, um sometimes people get stuff stuck in anxiety cycles or They can't stop thinking about something or the resentment gets so high. they're They're just constantly ruminating. And so she does a lot of work to help with that, our hypnotherapist, Sarah. And then we have eight well-trained therapists. Oh, I love that so much. Good stuff.
00:04:01
Speaker
A lot of my referrals come from some couples therapists that I'm really close with, and they're like, you know, individuals need to be working on their individual stuff, too, that they're bringing into therapy, and they've really been able to realize, okay, this is more, like you said, an interpersonal issue to make sure you're doing, so I love that so much. So I'm gonna jump in. Yeah, I wanna, can I say one thing about
Individual vs Couples Therapy
00:04:23
Speaker
that? I think it's very important, since there probably are a lot of therapists listening, it's very important when people bring in and to start bringing in complaints about their partners or complaints about the relationship to refer them to a couples therapist because if you start advising them individually, you don't see the system or the dynamic and actually sometimes it's harmful to people um because you're only, you're you're, you know, as an individual therapist, you're all about empowerment. But imagine empowering somebody without knowing the system. You know, you could really get somebody into trouble in their marriage.
00:04:59
Speaker
you i can I can remember very early on in my career, in consultation, um a supervisor saying, never think you're truly doing individual therapy. here that if you are talking about marital issues, you are doing couples therapy with only one side of it. And that has always just really stuck me with me to say, um I don't know the full story. So I love that you're saying that. Yeah, yeah. You got to be very careful about that. it's a We've all fallen into the trap. don't Don't get me wrong. I mean, all of us have fallen into the trap, but it's good to stay out of the trap. For sure.
Keys to a Successful Marriage
00:05:35
Speaker
So I'm going to start out by asking a very
00:05:38
Speaker
big loaded question. Okay, I'm ready. And that is, what does it take to have a healthy relationship, a healthy marriage that has good communication and good sex and good friendship and longevity and can get through the hard things in life? What is the formula?
00:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's loaded. It's complex, you know? I mean, we're complex and relationship is complex. And long-term relationship is more complex than anything that we do. Because, you know, like if I have a conflict with my girlfriend or a colleague at work, I might just avoid them for a few weeks. You know, I don't have to go home with them.
00:06:23
Speaker
I can just sort of take a pause, take a time out, take a break. And then hopefully in a few weeks, whatever energy I was digesting from that experience starts to dissolve a little bit. And I come back into a place where I can manage those feelings and manage that experience pretty well with the person or talk to them or, you know, however that gets managed, right? But in partnership, we have conflicts and every day we have to come back to each other.
00:06:50
Speaker
And if we have negative systems going on within the relationship, then we're walking right back in to the problem that we had. Like, the you know, the dialogue isn't going to go any easier. yeah um So, you know, the question you asked is what makes it successful?
00:07:10
Speaker
I think there's a few things. One is you have to have a sense of trust and you have to have a loving face across the other side. So if you and I are in a conflict or we're having a problem, um I have to know you're leaning in and you're invested in that problem. And I have to see love in your face and curiosity and interest. If I don't see that,
00:07:35
Speaker
I'm suspicious, I'm doubtful, you're really in it. I'm not sure you really are that interested in who I am or what I'm saying. And people pick up on that. People are extremely instinctual. You know, we've seen it in baby studies. You know, when the mom smiles, the baby smiles if the mom's angry. Like it's that fast. And it's super instinctual. And so we're like that too. That's a big one.
00:07:59
Speaker
The ability to lean in, the ability to be interested, the ability to, even if I don't understand a word you're saying, to be curious about who you are, why you feel that way, and why you're talking to me about it. And to be able to be relaxed enough to hear it even sometimes when it hurts my feelings. Even sometimes when I feel injured by some of the words that are coming out of your mouth.
00:08:24
Speaker
um and you know And the second thing is communication is how you present. I mean, the first 30 seconds decides if a conversation is going to go off the rail or off the rail. It's 30 seconds. Like if I say, hey, I need to talk to you right now. Whoa, my alarm bell is going, holy crap, I'm in trouble right now. And I'm not as likely to lean into that. Why would I do that? I mean, that seems a little risky.
00:08:53
Speaker
to lean into that kind of negative energy. I'm just, why would I do that? you know there You know, we are animals. We do have this instinct for danger that's extremely fast. If I come up to you and I say, hey love, I'm really struggling.
00:09:09
Speaker
I want to talk to you about something. the The leaning in is going to be much more present for somebody. I'm i'm very big with my couples on kindness, um words that are kind, invitations, inviting people to talk. That's so interesting because that seems like so basic. like do Very basic, right.
00:09:32
Speaker
But when you are in a tough spot with someone and especially if it feels like a pattern that has been going on for potentially years, kindness can be hard. It can be hard to try to meet someone with kindness if you feel like I've tried to express myself for a really long time and they're just not getting it. It sometimes can be hard to hold on to kindness. Well, kindness does not mean we lose truth.
00:09:59
Speaker
Speaking to someone respectfully doesn't mean I lose my anger. It doesn't lose i i mean I lose my resentment or my frustration over what we've been stuck in. It means I'm respectful.
00:10:13
Speaker
I mean, if I, you know, you know, I don't want to have a fight with you and be screaming, hey, I can't take it. I'm getting out of this marriage. I mean, that's extremely disparaging to your partner. I mean, they won't, they'll be hopeless. And then you're trying to talk to them about something serious. They're not going to be listening to you because they're going to be scared. You scared them.
00:10:34
Speaker
If I'm staying calm and I'm saying, look, I'm really, I'm pissed. I'm upset. I'm super angry. This cycle is going on way too long. I'm losing my ability to stay connected to you or even caring for you. And that's why you're seeing my agitation or sometimes you're seeing me get shorter. You're seeing me not respond to you in a loving way. that That's one thing, and we're not perfect. We're gonna be,
00:11:01
Speaker
I mean, I'm not perfect. I get into conflicts with, I mean, I had a little conflict last night with my husband and I was like, oh, great, right before my podcast. on But, you know, we're not perfect. We have a little, we have, we we we rub each other the wrong way. We're not the same people. What we need is not the same. um What feels loving and kind to me is not even the same.
00:11:25
Speaker
So learning each other, understanding each other, and then even accepting you're gonna rub me the wrong way. you know Terry Reel talks about something called normal marital hatred, which I really love. There are things about my partner I'm never gonna like. you know My partner's ADD, I don't like that, I'm sorry. you know I love him, but sometimes it drives me nuts that he forgets a lot of things I ask him to do. or can't keep track of things in the way I would like. um you know And we've had to create a lot of systems around that to function as a couple and to stay out of negativity around that because of course I want to be kind and loving towards that because that's not his fault. I want to be kind and loving. But I also want to know he's proactive with that.
00:12:16
Speaker
So then I'm not micromanaging that all the time and feeling more like a mother than a wife.
Navigating Relationship Expectations
00:12:22
Speaker
So I think for all of us there's things we don't like about our partners. I just think that's a reality. There are pieces of who you are that I don't and don't get. I will never like. yeah The thing is to learn when you run into those to be kind about it. Because if you're harsh about it, all you do is continue to get a withdrawal pattern in the relationship. So if I'm hard and you move away, and then I'm trying to get something, I'm trying to get your attention, I'm trying to get connected, I'm trying to get you to understand something, but all I'm doing is a system that keeps pushing you further away and expecting you to come close to me.
00:13:02
Speaker
um that That won't really work very well. And I think most of us don't understand that. We get emotional and we don't understand the power of those emotions and how they sometimes come out. And then we're we're frequently feeling misunderstood and hurt that someone's not attending to our needs. I also like that you're saying that um it doesn't have to be black or white. When you said that I can be angry and respectful,
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah, that we can hold those two things that just because we're angry, doesn't mean that we lose our ability to respect. And just because we show respect doesn't mean that we're just squashing our anger, especially if we have like a right to be ah angry and frustrated with our partner. And what you're also saying is that we do have a right for that, that that is going to be natural and normal in a relationship. And it's not a matter of, well, if, if we have these negative feelings, that must mean that I need to protect myself and pull back and withdraw.
00:14:02
Speaker
that you can still have a loving relationship that still holds space for, I mean, I i think that that's what individual individuality is, right? Is that we're never going to be the same person. We're not going to have the same interests. We're not going to function in the same way. We're not going to process things the same way. um It's about, would you say, like learning how the other person processes things so that you can understand them?
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's differentiation, right? like that That piece you were just speaking to, that I'm i'm not you, you're not me. um We are different. um And it's the acceptance of that. There are things I'm not going to get here. There's things that I i may not not be able to receive from you completely. Now, hopefully we're working on it, right? Hopefully we keep working in those areas where we have differences. We're trying to find common ground, common meaning.
00:14:54
Speaker
Like, you know, if you're, you know, if you're Jewish and I'm Catholic, we're coming together to create what religion we're going to have for our children and that, you know, we call that shared meaning. Like when we take our differences and we create something beautiful that's uniquely yours and uniquely mine.
00:15:12
Speaker
um But yeah, I mean differentiation is something that people have to understand and accept about relationship. I think, you know, I think what happens, and I can think back to my early days in partnership. um
00:15:27
Speaker
You know, we have a very romantic, I think we tend to have a fairly, we grow up in a culture that has a very romantic view of love, like sex is supposed to stay hot, and you and I are supposed to have fun, and once we have the baby, we're supposed to get out there and continue socializing, and um and we and we even have a culture that kind of promotes this kind of keep going, and keep it going, and it's supposed to always work out and be kind of great.
00:15:56
Speaker
And the truth of the matter is is that almost all marriages run into struggles periodically, dips in low sexual desire, conflict pattern cycles, grief that gets in the way of a parent dies or something bad happens. loss of jobs. all that you know I always say this to everybody. We live a long life. like you know A moth dies in a month. Human beings now are probably going to live on average between 80 to 100 something years. and So stuff's going to happen.
00:16:29
Speaker
And if you're married to somebody, you're not going to stay the same. They're not going to stay the same. Things are going to happen. And I don't think sometimes we know how to manage that. And that's when we get into that black and white rigid thinking that you're talking about. So, you know, there are things I really like.
00:16:48
Speaker
and want, and when you are giving those to me, I might get demanding. So a lot of times if I say to you, hey, I need this, hey, I need this, and then you're not responding and you're not meeting that need.
00:17:03
Speaker
I start to become louder and more assertive. My words become blunter. I start to go into this, okay, well, I'll yell at you now. Do you get it now? Kind of attitude, kind of that that like all or nothing kind of attitude. Or I give up, right? I go into Waldorf. I go into collapsing. I go into hopelessness, depression.
00:17:28
Speaker
Even beings pretty much go one way or the other. They either kind of have an anxious personality type and those people will be pushing for what they need and they they are tend to be love addicts, they love connection, they love intimacy, they but they can also be aggressive about intimacy or a medium whiny about intimacy.
00:17:50
Speaker
And on the other side is the Waldorf people where for whatever reason intimacy in their upbringing, um they miss pieces or there was repression of some type. um And so they are a little bit, intimacy isn't that comfortable for them. They actually struggle a little bit with deep intimacy. They prefer a little bit of autonomy and they can struggle with intimacy.
00:18:16
Speaker
So when you have a mismatch, which by the way is 98% of the couples we see. It always seems like
Attachment Styles and Intimacy
00:18:22
Speaker
that, right? There's always a pursuer and there's always an an avoider, it feels like. 98% of couples that come into therapy have that pattern. And the reason we're attracted to that pattern is it's a complementary pattern. It's the opposite of who we are in some ways. Like, you know, those walled off people tend to be very stable and strong and reliable. The um anxious people tend to be kind of energetic and go-getter and so there's an attraction to these things that are different for us but then when we run into them after we've been together for a while and all the hormones have calmed down and we start to see what's the struggle about those differences we get rigid I want you to come to my side I don't really want to come to your side
00:19:07
Speaker
I don't think that's unusual for people. I mean, we're seeing it right now politically, and not not to get into that, but, um but you know ah you know, I want you to come to my side. And Cottrell's work is all about meeting in the middle. It's all about compromise. i I can't come to your side. I don't have your values, your beliefs. I don't operate the way you operate.
00:19:35
Speaker
I don't think the way that you think. So instead of me or you moving one way or the other, we each move a little bit to find common ground. And in that common ground, we find a way to live together that to me is super beautiful and exciting because now I really know who you are. i'm not when not When I'm trying to move you, I don't know who you are.
00:20:03
Speaker
Oh, I'm not even that and who you are. If I'm trying to move you, like if I'm trying to move you to my side, I don't even really know who you are. No. That's so interesting. That's right. Because if I really knew you, then I would understand why you couldn't function on my side. Yeah.
00:20:21
Speaker
I love that so much, yeah. So when we work, and that's what we see with couples work after about, usually about 18 to 24 sessions is what we usually see with couples, is that a deep, deep intimacy of knowing, a deep intimacy of understanding, kindness and compassion, where when the thing that drives me nuts shows up, um and ability to talk through things rather than always ending up in a power struggle or a attack-defense cycle.
00:20:52
Speaker
So we start to see couples really find, you know, a lot of passion and sexuality usually shows up because of course the more connected and safe I am with you, the more my desire and my safety in the bedroom shows up too, you know, then all of a sudden I'm like, okay, because if you're having lots of conflict, sex is one of the first things frequently to go.
00:21:14
Speaker
um It's one of the things that disappears very quickly. So, yeah, I mean, and we just don't know how to do it. You know, I mean, I grew up in a home, lots of love, but high conflict. You know, high conflict.
00:21:33
Speaker
I mean, I had to call the police a couple of times. High conflict. My parents went were wonderful until they got into a place and they never could get to the compromise. And so the resentment over time became so high that I don't, you know, my father probably could walk in the house and my mother would be pissed off. yeah Because they never could work it out. And instead of seeing somebody and working on it and getting help with it,
00:22:01
Speaker
They waited too long, really, and ultimately they ended up in a divorce. You know, most couples wait seven years to get therapy. That's the average. That's way too long. That is way too long. The young couples come in, like I got all these young couples that come in, and they're like, we've been fighting for six months. And I'm like, oh my God, you people are fabulous.
00:22:23
Speaker
I mean, like I love these young couples because they're like, so they're like, I really love them. I really don't want us to be in this and they're so proactive, so unashamed to get help, so eager to have an expert come in and guide them and for them somebody to teach them. But like my generation, I'm 61, my generation, and certainly I think even 40 and up, um, I don't know if we have a shame cycle going on. We don't talk about our problems a lot of times with our friends. And we don't get help for a long time. And by the time we come in, we're on the brink of ending our partnerships. That's my people that are in their 40s and up. They're usually on the edge of divorce. And that's much harder because you know you've had years of conflict. Years of prison building up, for sure. Yeah, years, years of it.
00:23:17
Speaker
yeah So one of the questions that I am curious about um is when you are working with couples and you realize that they probably have developed patterns and they they get in a cycle of things are okay for a little bit, but then somebody does the thing, yeah sends them into this
Breaking Negative Cycles and Managing Resentment
00:23:35
Speaker
cycle. And like you said, it makes one person blow up, the other person pulls back, there's guilt that comes in and and every couple kind of has their there are different triggers and there are different exact cycle. But I hear so many people say like, I know exactly how this is going to play out because it's the same every single time. Yeah, yeah. How do you work with people on breaking, really, ah especially like you're saying for couples that have waited seven plus years, some of these are deeply ingrained. um Yeah, well, the first thing you have to do is get the resentment down. So if somebody stays resentful, you can't break the pattern. um So resentment is a killer.
00:24:13
Speaker
Negative sentiment, so that's what the Gottmans call it, resentment, I call it resentment, it doesn't matter really. But what that means is that my my ability to see my relationship as a positive place is lower than the negativity I see in my relationship. So my overall my overall view is negative, and my positive views are less than. I might have some sometimes, but they're getting less than and less than and less than. So the negative ones are higher.
00:24:42
Speaker
than the positive ones, and and that's a sign of resentment. um And once resentment starts, it's ah it's a terrible thing, unfortunately, because, I mean, at one point, I was so resentful of Wayne, we had a sexual issue, and he wasn't working with me on it. I think he felt demasculinated in the way that I handled it, and probably I did handle it poorly. um And then he would work with me on it.
00:25:08
Speaker
And at one point, because he was not working with me on it, we've been going through this for a couple of years, really, very low sexual sexual energy between us, very low sex. And that was important to me. I started to get so resentful. I didn't even like the way he smelled.
00:25:25
Speaker
That's how high it became. And I love the way my husband smells now. I love, and I'm very attracted to who my husband is. It got so high. And so I was thinking, I must be with the wrong person. My whole body is kind of rejecting the individual. That must be a sign, right?
00:25:46
Speaker
And I didn't know it wasn't really a sign of anything but my negativity. What was going on between my ears. Not necessarily what was going on between him and I. We were having a problem. But I had taken a problem, ah a fire, a little...
00:26:02
Speaker
fire and turned it into a bonfire and made it everything about the relationship so he could walk in the room and I didn't even like the way he walked or the way he stomped around the house or like everything and that's what happens when resentment gets high it's a ripple so it starts with the thing you're resentful of and eventually it just keeps rippling into all kinds of personality aspects of the person you're with yeah So the smothering of the, a slow smothering of the relationship where it just bleeds out into all areas of it. Yeah. Yeah. I joke with my clients, I'll put my cup down and I'll say, yeah, you know, are you at that place where when he puts the cup down, you can't even stand the sound of it? And a lot of them say, yes. I'm like, well, that's so, that's really hot. And then I have to tell them, if the resentment doesn't come down, I can't help you. You can't work. A person will not work with you.
00:26:59
Speaker
when you despise them. They will not work with you if you resent them like that. Why would they enter into that lion's den? They're not going to enter into that den. So if you want to get your marriage back on track, the resentment has to come down and we have to start talking again about what the problem really is. We have to start discussing the fire in the room.
00:27:22
Speaker
There's a fire. There's a problem. Probably, you know, I mean, in my case, my husband was neglectful. There's no question about that. And I was overreacting. So there's a problem.
00:27:34
Speaker
Right? His not leaning in was problematic. It was escalating my anxiety. um My anxiety was escalating him leaning out. It was just, it just was a big snowball effect. So, you know, they so you have to get that down. That's the first step. So, and and how in the world do you do that? How in the world do you work on resentment towards your partner? You work on it through thinking about what you love about them.
00:28:01
Speaker
Nobody marries somebody they don't love. that That does not happen. Doesn't happen. We marry people we love.
00:28:12
Speaker
So when I was working on it, I would get in a fight with Wayne. I'd be so furious about our issue. I'd be like about to just say whatever, you know, and my anger would come out of my mouth. I'd go into the bathroom. I'd shut the door and I'd start listing things. My husband's a great father. o He always helps me with anything outside of our relationship. Yeah.
00:28:39
Speaker
He's always been one of the kindest people that I've ever met. I mean, there were a lot of things to list. And so you're balancing the negativity with the positive again, because you've lost your ability to do that. You've lost your you've lost your compass, really.
00:28:56
Speaker
Well, and I just wanted to point out that that takes a very intentional, conscious decision to do that because that is not going to feel good or natural in the moment. Nope. Doesn't feel good. and don't that i When I was so angry at this person and so resentful and I'm going to go and think about the good things about them, you know, that takes a lot of commitment and it takes a lot of just like mindfulness for yourself to say,
00:29:20
Speaker
I'm choosing to focus on this right now because you're right. I could totally lean into the negative and go sit in the bathroom and, you know, stew on a list of things that I can't stand about this person right now. But I'm i'm going to choose to do something different because that's not what I want for my marriage. Yeah. But here's the thing. this what i This is what I tell people all the time. You already know. I don't have to tell you what the other thing has done to your home life and your environment.
00:29:47
Speaker
how it's affected your children, how it's affected your sense of happiness. You can keep doing the resentment and you will get the same thing. There's nothing that I can do to change that. So you have to decide, am I going to cultivate a more mature relational set of behaviors?
00:30:06
Speaker
And, you know, but I don't think people realize that when we're talking about intimate relationship, you have to learn to cultivate relational mature behavior. You really have to learn to do it. We don't come in with that organically. We come in with some very good mature skills, all of us, or we wouldn't even be in a partnership for more than a few months.
00:30:30
Speaker
but But we don't really have the full package. yeah And that's everybody because parents don't provide the full package. And probably I didn't provide the full package for my son. He'll have to learn some things. So, you know, we have to learn to cultivate, and they are mindfulness techniques, you're right.
00:30:50
Speaker
it's It's beginning to stop yourself, to take a pause, to slow down, to come back to what is my intent here? Is my intent to scare this person, beat them up, shame them, um make them see this thing no matter what today? Or is my intent to heal what's not working within the relationship? Because those are two very different intents.
00:31:16
Speaker
home if If I'm healing the relationship, then I'm thinking about the presentation. I'm thinking about how I'm communicating that. I'm thinking about the cost to the other person and what I'm saying. I'm very aware that what I'm saying could be hurtful, could be hard for them to hear, could be uncomfortable for them. I'm holding both of us. I'm not just holding my story. I'm holding the fact that this person is experiencing something with me.
00:31:47
Speaker
um And then I'm thinking about the fact that I may not get everything I'm asking for, that I'm looking for the compromises here. I'm not looking to be, um if I win and we choose to live our couples life the way I want, you will ultimately lose. You are not in the relationship. There's not enough differentiation, different values, different ideas floating in the relationship.
00:32:15
Speaker
um So you will ultimately end up losing. one One of the things that comes to my mind is when we are hurt in the present by someone, whether our needs not getting that that kind of thing, um it is it is so easy for our old pains to be ah ripped open. And a lot of the work that I do in my practice and individually is making sure that your younger self is taken care of,
00:32:45
Speaker
When you are with your partner, it's really adult you showing up. yeah can When you use the word, be curious about your partner. To me, that's one of the biggest qualities of being in your most grounded self is if you have the ability to be curious about the other person, then you're not preoccupied with being defensive or making sure that you're protective or making sure that you um Your needs are are met. You're really able to be curious about them because you feel really settled. That's the only way to be curious about another person is if you feel grounded in the moment and if we realize that our partner
00:33:22
Speaker
in 2024, they're not meeting a current need. It can remind our younger parts of when maybe a parent didn't meet that same need, whether it's being hurt or affection or attention, things like that. And all those old pains can storm in without us even realizing that that's where it's coming from. And our partner can pay the price of what someone else did to us.
00:33:44
Speaker
So that's where I love what we said before about making sure that you're doing your own work to make sure that you really are only dealing with the conflict that's between you and your partner. um Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, relational tree, first of all, triggering occurs in
Addressing Emotional Triggers and Resentment
00:34:02
Speaker
relationship. It doesn't usually, you know, you might have triggering that occurs from a car accident or something like that, but primarily, um,
00:34:12
Speaker
emotional triggering occurs within relationship. So my triggering occurred when I was a child. um Maybe I grew up with a mother who was distracted. So sometimes she was present. Sometimes she wasn't. Maybe my dad was a workaholic, never around.
00:34:29
Speaker
um And so what happens is I have these storylines and I've adapted at a very young age to whatever that system was. So children adapt very quickly to the environment and system they're in to survive. And then I don't realize when I get married that many of those things are going to show up. I might even pick, people frequently even pick people that have a familiarity to them.
00:34:54
Speaker
because that's comfortable. um So like, you know, my dad was a workaholic, my husband has ADD, and there's some qualities to that with the procrastination and not not staying present all the time. That's very similar to somebody who's a workaholic, there are elements of that. And it took a long time for me to realize that I was getting triggered and projecting my father's story onto my husband.
00:35:19
Speaker
Like, you know, my father my my my mother and father lost their marriage because of my father's neglect. And when Wayne would like not attend or not listen, I would go into a neglect story almost automatically. And then I'd be like, how can you be doing this to me? You know, I'd be kind of emotional and kind of inflamed about it. And it probably took me 15 years to, and even though I had lots of therapy, nobody really explained all this to me for some reason.
00:35:47
Speaker
um It probably took me about 15 years to figure out in our marriage that that was happening. And then of course he had an oppressive, overly zealot religious mother who was extremely oppressive. So here we are, right?
00:36:03
Speaker
You're neglecting me in some way. I'm having an emotional reaction that's scary and loud and feels oppressive to you. And we're just triggering, triggering, triggering. So every dialogue about that becomes, it's like maybe in the beginning it was a slower reaction to it. But by the time we're three, four, five years into that pattern, we're reacting in seconds. And our nervous system is reacting in seconds.
00:36:30
Speaker
And what's happening is, just like what you said, the child triggered part of me is is actually, it's in charge of the relationship, not the adult, right? So when the child parts in charge of the relationship, it has no interest in relationship. It has an interest in getting what it wants. It's not interested in the other person. As a matter of fact, it will drive the partnership off a cliff. It has it does not have the intent of what is it that we need together. It has the intent of, oh my God, ah get here I go again, something's happening to me, I'm not gonna get something or something bad is gonna happen. And so that part gets triggered very quickly. Most of us don't realize that most of my couples, they don't know, they actually believe that their partner is doing something really bad to them.
00:37:24
Speaker
And that's why they're having these emotional responses to it. And most people don't realize that actually it's not really, it's ah it's bigger than that. That your partner's doing something that's making you uncomfortable, but the big alarm bell is probably a result of history, past history, past wounding. And so you're going from a problem that could be ah maybe a zero to five and you're making five to 10.
00:37:53
Speaker
because you're dragging in all the past stories without even recognizing that they're there. And then you can start to hear it in a conflict. Like, you know, you can start to hear it in the language very quickly when you're working with a couple. You'll start to hear the language like, you know, oh, you always do this to me and ah you don't love me. And, you know, you'll start to hear it, which, you know, isn't true when you're sitting in the room. Like, obviously, these people care for each other. They're probably not coming to couples therapy.
00:38:23
Speaker
Um, but yeah, the triggering, triggering is extremely complex. ah We have this, you know, fantastic amygdala that kind of serves us as animals. Like if a, you know, if a lion's chasing us, then it goes off and we run, but we're frequently reacting that way to our partners as if there's a lion in the room about to eat us. And there isn't.
00:38:48
Speaker
There isn't. And we have to help people to bring the front frontal cortex online, which is the one that can be more logical, can think through things, can have the adult ability to see things more clearly. That's a lot of work in therapy that you have to do. And you know this through your individual work. There's a lot of work getting people online. And what I always say to everybody is when you're triggered, you're offline. So the dialogue between you and your partner probably should stop.
00:39:17
Speaker
immediately. There's probably no point in continuing that, taking a time out, beginning to recognize what triggering looks like, why you get triggered, how it feels in your body. You're going to go two ways with triggering, right? You're either going to go elevation or you're going to go stonewalling and shutting down and disconnecting.
00:39:36
Speaker
So you can figure that out pretty easily with couples. And then once you help them figure that out, um and they can start to monitor that in their own body and in their own brain, the words, you get them to understand the words that keep coming out, those automatic sentences.
00:39:52
Speaker
They start to be able to pause and reflect and slow down and just take a time out. And then they can come back to stability. And most of the time when you teach people to do that, their self-esteem goes up. They feel empowered. They feel grounded. I'm now in control. Because when that trigger part's in control, it's a very out of control, out of body experience. It it does not feel good at all. Yeah.
00:40:18
Speaker
yeah Yeah, your insight is low, your empathy is low, your caring for other people is low, you're really very self-preserving. But I'm also thinking about like if you can help people see what the cycle is. Yeah. And get to a place of let's take a pause and it's not an avoidance shut down kind of pause but a a very intentional proactive pause. I would also imagine that that's the first time the cycle can not go to completion where it's this big blow up. Yeah. Well, which won't that give people
00:40:54
Speaker
hope potentially for the first time of like okay maybe we can break this cycle and which only can lead to like being even more invested in the process if for the first time you can say like okay we're actually able to recognize it in the moment and it doesn't go from zero all the way to a hundred like we're able to shut it down at some point I'm just thinking about what that alone does for the hope of the relationship if it feels like it's been this pattern that we haven't been able to break for so long. Yeah, I think that it's a double-edged sword in our work. So the first time somebody does that, they come in very happy. Yeah, we didn't do it. We followed the steps. And then the next week, they can't.
00:41:40
Speaker
somebody gets too activated and they see you we have to remember that people have been letting themselves get activated for a long time. So that pattern is way more built in than the pattern of stopping. And so a lot of times in couples therapy where it gets really rough in the middle of therapy is I have just enough insight to know what I should do, but I'm frequently not doing it at my home. And that can be really hard for people. They'll come in and say, you know,
00:42:09
Speaker
we're just not getting it at at home. And I'm like, I get that. And I'm like, well, and and it's just like learning unlearning something. It takes a minute to unlearn something.
00:42:20
Speaker
So that's when we talk to people a lot about patience and love. Like, you're gonna make a lot, I make mistakes with my, hunt i I really did have a quite a bad argument with my husband last night and I got triggered about something and I acted like a kid. And I'm gonna have to apologize this afternoon, i you know, and and be pretty humble about it. And then he slipped into his stuff, which he does, if I get triggered, that's it with my husband, he's he's triggered like that.
00:42:48
Speaker
but I so appreciate you sharing that because that's vulnerable to say on a podcast, right? But to be able to say like you've been doing this for how many years and you're an expert in it and to see that it still happens. I think that that helps people.
00:43:02
Speaker
ah adjust their expectations for their marriage too to say that perfection is not the goal here. like It can continue to happen, but that doesn't mean that you don't know how to move through it so much more quickly now and to be able to like own your stuff. I just so appreciate appreciate your vulnerability with that. um yeah Yeah, we do a lot of in our office with um disclosure. All of us all of us struggled in relationship. We will never get it perfect. If you are stressed enough, if you are overwhelmed enough, if you're tired enough, you know right now the election is causing extra stuff for people, um you will be triggered.
00:43:41
Speaker
And sometimes you will be able to catch it and sometimes it might get ahead of you before you have the ability to do that. And you're right. The key is like Wayne and I don't get we don't get to upset when we have an argument because we know we're coming back. We'll be talking about it. We'll be diving in deep.
00:44:00
Speaker
will be, oh well there's really something in there bothering you, let's talk about it. So an argument is not anything but a catalyst to the intimacy that we're going to have. It's just a catalyst to intimacy. Now we do want to keep those um And that one to five range is good because when they go to five to 10, there's damage. Again, you scare people when they get too elevated. And ah we frighten each other when we get too elevated. But if we keep them kind of low, we kept ours fairly though. It went on for a few minutes and then I said, that's it, time out. I got podcasts in the morning, let's take a break here. I can't do this tonight. And and we both have a, and that's the other thing. If I, I have rights.
00:44:48
Speaker
within a relationship to stay stop. And you should respect my right. So as long as I'm not abusing that to control the relationship, if I'm using that because things are getting too big, we're elevating too much, we're moving into our cycle that's painful, I should never lose my right to say that's enough, we need to stop. We need to take a time out, we need a break. And every adult needs that in partnership.
00:45:14
Speaker
Every single adult needs to be able to say, hey, we need to stop. I'm getting overwhelmed. I'm about to get triggered. um I'm moving into something I don't want to move into with you. So, but yeah I mean, it's hard.
00:45:30
Speaker
It's hard, you know, it's it's like easy, hard. It's kind of a weird thing. Like, you know, like my relationship overall is super easy, fun, playful, exciting, super easy. But there are moments where it's just hard. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't think the goal is for it to be easy all the time. Like that's not realistic. Um, one final question that I have for you is just, do you have some tips for good communication? Because I feel like,
00:46:02
Speaker
Maybe you you agree with this, but I think so much of it is just miscommunication where you're right. like You've got two people that have that hold a lot of love and care for each other, but we don't communicate very well. um You're speaking different languages sometimes. You're coming from such different places. And that can turn something that maybe would have been a two and two and eight because of the communication around it. So can you give us some good tips for just how to listen well and how to communicate well? Three.
00:46:31
Speaker
Let's start with the communicating first, and then we'll talk about the listening well. So three things you have to be aware of, I think, when it comes to communication. You have to understand your triggering, because we've already discussed that. If you get triggered, you aren't listening anymore, and you're only self-focused. So if you don't understand why you get triggered, what triggers you, and where you go, and what that's about, it's very hard to to listen well because those moments will be happening in very important times in relationship where somebody's trying to talk to you about something quite serious.
00:47:07
Speaker
and you're not you're not present for them to to get that. So that that's one. The resentment piece I talked about, if resentment is too high overall, all um again, I'm not triggered, but I am viewing you as the enemy. I'm not viewing you as somebody that will work with me. Even even when you do positive things, if my resentment's really high, I'm seeing it as manipulation, or I'm not even recognizing good stuff anymore.
00:47:37
Speaker
So without that, um with resentment being tried, there's there's no way to communicate. Those two are really important, primary focuses we work on at the very beginning. And then there's skill. There's communication skill. Do I know how to do what we call a soft startup? So I gave you an example earlier in the podcast.
00:47:58
Speaker
like you know ah Why aren't these dishes done? I asked you every night to do the dishes. That would be a harsh startup. No one's gonna respond Well, they're gonna they're gonna go into a defensive narrative and tell you why they were busy all day long or I go hey, babe I keep asking you to help me with this and I'm starting to get frustrated. Can you do it for me right now? I and And then can we talk about why why that's a struggle? Okay, that's a soft start-up. I'm just telling you, and i I'm not, I'm keeping it in me, my feeling. Not you doing something bad, but me, what I feel, what I need, what I want. So there's a difference between harshness, which goes out, and ah soft, which goes in.
00:48:46
Speaker
Okay. So that's one defensiveness, um, which is, you know, primarily a male issue and cause, you know, men do, men do have quite a bit of a struggle with leaning in
Gender, Communication, and Conflict Resolution
00:49:02
Speaker
emotionally. You know, when you think about little boys and you watch what on the play, all you have to do is go to a playground anywhere in the world, anywhere in the world.
00:49:12
Speaker
And when a little boy falls off a slide but a little girl falls off slide, people hold her for 15, 20 minutes. And she'll cry and cry and cry and cry. And people might even be saying that's going on all along, but she'll be held. If a little boy falls off the slide, he'll cry. And so I'm going to come over and say, look, brush your knees off. Get back on there. You're tough. You can handle it. yeah So when we get emotional in relationships, men don't know how to handle that.
00:49:41
Speaker
um in heterosexual relationships. And we even see very similar things in gay relationships, to be honest with you. We see a lot of the same pattern showing up, because I work a lot with gay couples and I work a lot with heterosexual couples, and the patterns seem to be very similar. And so what happens is a lot of times, particularly men in heterosexual relationships, just talking about those for a minute,
00:50:09
Speaker
um When people get emotional, their tendency is to say, let's just get over this and move on. And they don't lean in and they don't give enough space and time and they get defensive. If it goes too on too long, they start to feel badgered, they feel beat up, they want it over with, they just want to fix it. And so they go into very defensive narratives, which ultimately create an attack-defense cycle. So instead of being heard, now my partner is elevating again because they're not heard.
00:50:39
Speaker
And if that goes on too long, we get into the resentment-contempt cycle. Now I don't even trust you anymore. I don't believe you're here for me. I don't believe you listen to me. I don't believe you're interested. So I automatically, when the topic comes up, go to contempt ah very quickly. And then there's this stonewalling cycle where people shut down. So when we look at communication, we look at criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling, which is the Gottman's Four Horsemen, which is a beautiful, beautiful guide.
00:51:08
Speaker
You can go to the Gottman website and and find that ah beautiful guide. and And that teaches us why, if these things come into relationship, they wreak havoc on communication, how to get out of it. That little graph helps people. People are smart.
00:51:26
Speaker
And no, people don't want to stay stuck. Right, right. You know, they're pretty smart, really. They don't want to stay stuck. They want to get out. So if you give them tools, they they may not be able to... It's not a light switch. They may not be able to take the tool and put it in and use it immediately. But if you give it to them over and over and over again and you help them over and over and over again and change that cognitive behavioral pattern, then they get pretty good at it. pretty They get pretty good at it.
00:51:53
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I like that you're saying is that piggybacking on what you said before about we weren't taught how to be in these relationships. yeah like They don't come with a guide. We observe a lot of relationships from other people, but that's different than practicing it yourself. yeah But what i I like what you're saying is, number one, you don't have to come in expecting yourself to have already known all of this. But number two, that there are like some concrete skills, because I think people like to be able to say, like
00:52:24
Speaker
Are we just going to come in and talk about all of our problems? like No, there's actual tools and skills that you can learn that can make a massive impact that that you can start practicing right away. And you're right that they're not going to seem like second nature at first, and it's going to take a lot of practice to get there. But I like just the idea of there can be something new to learn within yourself of like, I can get better at this. I think a lot of people feel hopeless and kind of stuck of like, well, this just is how it is. And it's like, no, you can get better at this. Like knowing yourself better, knowing your partner better, knowing how to communicate better, that that actually can change.
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah, we know, you know, I did couples therapy a long time ago and it was um a lot of reflective listening, a lot of, um you know, if we could bring the resentment down, these people will be fine, the sex will come back level. We now know that's not true. The top therapists in the world know that's not true. It doesn't work. We have to teach people.
00:53:24
Speaker
People don't know what they're doing. And there's no shame in that. I didn't know what I was doing. um you know I had a lot of good relational skills. I had a lot of negative relational skills. I still have some negative relational skills. um It's not easy. you know We learn our skills through modeling, watching, and observing, and through reaction.
00:53:46
Speaker
When things happen to us, we react and then we have belief patterns that we develop very early. And we have to remember a lot of those are created and developed under the age of 17. So they're a little bit they're a little bit immature, some of these beliefs we have, right?
Humility and Love in Conflict Repair
00:54:02
Speaker
So I don't think we're aware of those things so much. We have to pay attention to what we've learned. And we really do have to be willing to be humble about who we are and what our flaws are. And when both people in a relationship it can be humble, like well my husband's gotten really good at knowing he's a defensive person. So like when I go downstairs to apologize, he's going to apologize too. I know that right now. I'm going to go down and say, look, I'm sorry. I approach that topic.
00:54:37
Speaker
in a way that I know got you defensive and he's gonna say, and i could have I could have just leaned in and instead I got very defensive because of your tongue. And that'll be the first conversation we'll have because we know ourselves. The second conversation will be, what were you trying to say to me? I really wanna hear it. So we move, okay, that didn't go well, so what?
00:55:03
Speaker
um Let's get back on the ride here. I love you. ah you know because Because if you don't repair and fix, you're you're in that cycle of building resentment. That's all you're in. So every time there's a conflict, there has to be a repair. You have to come back. The disconnection is not a problem, but we have to reconnect.
00:55:25
Speaker
But I also I love that what you're saying is that you're at a place in your marriage where your baseline is knowing that you'll be loved. Yeah. Even when you approach that is it's the opposite of resentment. It's the we're going to go and we're going to have this repair. And I already know that he wants to like you already have this faith and this confidence that I know he'll want to know where I'm coming from. I know he will want to resolve this. And I know we're going to get over this. And the other side of it, there's going to be a baseline of love. And I think that that when you're talking about working to remove the resentment is a big piece of it of thinking, when we get back to our baseline, there's just going to be love. Yeah. And trust.
00:56:04
Speaker
Yeah, we try to get all our couples there. Not out of conflict, believe it or not, but to a place of trusting each other and understanding that even when we get messy and sloppy, which we all do, that the person on the other side cares about that and wants to work with you on it. And again, if somebody doesn't, that's a problem. you know And so we work a lot with men ah on leaning in.
00:56:29
Speaker
And anybody that has a walled off pattern, females too that have that, that have an intimacy issue, um how to lean in, how to be invested, even when somebody gets angry or scary, how do I come back quickly? And we work on the anxious people on how do I manage that anxiety so I don't overwhelm and push and become aggressive with my partner or whiny and manipulative. Yeah, absolutely.
00:56:58
Speaker
ah I hate that we're out of time. I feel like I could talk to you about this all day. We might have to do a second episode sometime. I would love to. I would love to do a second episode. It's a it's a false look couples is a it's the most it's one of the most important things. I mean we model for our children who they will be as partners. Yeah.
00:57:19
Speaker
And the power of that is immense. And the responsibility of that is immense. And if we do it well, again, our self-esteem is like, wow, I did a good job as a parent. I showed my kid how to have a relationship. I was able to overcome my own flaws to be more relationally connected and more intimate. ah We do want to be seen, fully seen.
00:57:47
Speaker
All of us want to be fully seen. you know And and there's you know most of us have some neglect. It just happens. It's hard for parents. It's just hard. ah Thank you so much for being here today and just sharing all of your wisdom with us. Tell people
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:58:03
Speaker
where they can find you. I'll definitely put all of your information in the show notes, but do you want to let people know where they can find you? Yeah. so First of all, thank you, Julie. I really appreciate you inviting me. and um It was easy and nice. I'm you know i'm just really grateful to share
00:58:19
Speaker
You know, I've been around a long time to share a little bit of wisdom with people. I hope people enjoyed that, but I i really enjoyed speaking with you. Um, so we are, we have a physical office in Atlanta, um, right on, uh, right off of Claremont road in 85, um, in that particular area, a little bit near that bucket area.
00:58:41
Speaker
And um then, of course, all of us do Zoom now. So we see people all over the state. So you don't need to come to the office in person. You can definitely do Zoom because that's just the way that we're all working these days. So we we offer both. And we even just opened a branch in Tennessee. So now we have a branch in Tennessee and we'll be opening one in North Carolina.
00:59:04
Speaker
ah So we'll be having a so another two other locations so we can um have people a little bit even statewide. um People can find us online at thecouplescollege.com um or just um you know if you go do a browse and you put in the Couples College, we'll come right up. um I am going to do a little, if I can do a little pump here for something.
00:59:30
Speaker
um My SARA, our hypnotherapist, is doing a ah menopause group for women in December. and um She's an incredible spiritual leader.
00:59:44
Speaker
and um ah It is probably gonna be fantastic. Everybody loves Sarah everybody that works with her loves her. She's just a really beautiful group leader So if you're out there with menopause Go to it because we don't talk enough about menopause either in the impact on women ah But um, yeah, please come see us, you know, we'd love to see ya. Absolutely. Thank you so much again for being here today I hope everyone enjoyed today's episode and are feeling really encouraged in their marriage that there, if you're in a rough spot, that there's hope for change for sure. Um, and we will talk to you guys next time.
01:00:22
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.