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Understanding Autism and ADHD in Women
836 Plays10 months ago
In today’s episode, we explore the often misunderstood and underdiagnosed experiences of women with ADHD and Autism. Megan Heller-Foley shares her expertise and experience with Julie, as we dive into the unique challenges, strengths, and coping mechanisms that characterize the intersection of gender and neurodiversity. We aim to break down stereotypes, promote awareness, and foster a more inclusive understanding of ADHD and Autism in women.
About today's guest:
Megan Heller-Foley is a licensed clinical social worker at Awaken Counseling in Marietta, Georgia. Megan has a bachelors of science in psychology and a masters of science in social work. Megan has been a licensed social worker since 2012 and a therapist in private practice for six years. Megan’s lived experience as a Neurodiverse person has led her to focus on helping others navigate their lives with adhd and autism. Megan’s special interests include reading psychological thrillers and roman-tasy books, almost all fandom’s (currently engulfed in the hobbit), board games, 90 day fiancé (and all of its spin offs), and the never ending pursuit of knowledge and acceptance of living as a Neurodiverse person.
Get in touch with Megan:
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 2 and Episode Focus
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into today's episode of Outside of Session. Today we're going to be talking about understanding ADHD and autism in women. And I had the chance to sit down with Megan Heller Foley, who is a licensed clinical social worker at Awaken Counseling in Marietta, Georgia. And this is Megan's specialty and I'm so thankful that she sat down to talk with me today because she has just so much knowledge in this area and was able to answer so many of the questions that I had.
Guest Introduction and Professional Background
00:01:16
Speaker
A little more about Megan, she has a bachelor's degree in psychology and a master's in social work and has been a licensed social worker since 2012. And she's been a therapist in private practice for the past six years. Megan's lived experience as a neurodiverse person has led her to focus on helping others navigate their lives with ADHD and autism.
00:01:38
Speaker
Her other interests include reading psychological thrillers and romantasy books and almost all fandoms. She is currently engulfed in The Hobbit. She also enjoys board games, 90-day fiancé and all of its spin-offs, and the never-ending pursuit of knowledge and acceptance of living as a neurodiverse person.
00:01:57
Speaker
On a personal note, I've known Megan for almost a decade and we actually used to work together at the beginning of our career. And she is without a doubt one of the kindest, most authentic and funniest people that I have ever met. And I'm just really grateful to be able to call her a friend as well.
Professional Journey and Evolution
00:02:13
Speaker
So I hope you enjoy today's episode as I sit down and learn from Megan. Hey Megan.
00:02:24
Speaker
Hi, Julie. I am so excited to have you here today. Well, I'm excited to be here. I said in the intro a minute ago that you and I have actually known each other for a really long time. And I was trying to think the other day, I think I started, you were already working there before I was, right? Yes. Yes. And I got to like be a part of some of your training there, I think. Like we got to eat lunch together in the little... Oh yeah, remember that.
00:02:52
Speaker
That was back in, I think I started there in 2015. Probably one of the few lunch breaks you or I had during the whole time working there, right? Right. They presented it like I was going to get lunch breaks, but that didn't actually happen, right? It was a big ruse. Yeah, we eat lunch in this cafeteria every day. Not so much.
Understanding ADHD and Autism in Women
00:03:15
Speaker
So today we're going to be talking, you know, even thinking about that, like how far we've come, like, I just have to say, like, thank God for how far we've come and that we're not still here, but we've gone like in similar directions in our career and that we're both like in private practice now, but we work with very different populations. Obviously a lot of overlap, but you have become like this expert and I'm just so proud of you.
00:03:39
Speaker
Oh, thank you. It's so cool. So today we're going to be talking about understanding ADHD and autism and women. That's your niche. That's what you specialize in now. So I don't even know where to start because I'm not very educated in this. So I'm just going to start by asking for you to tell us everything that you wish the average person knew about autism and ADHD, and especially how it presents in girls and women.
00:04:04
Speaker
Sure. Well, I'm going to start by saying that I'm going to talk about ADHD and autism both together as a spectrum. I'm not really going to differentiate that much because there is a lot of overlap and there's a lot of misdiagnosis in there.
00:04:21
Speaker
And then I'm going to be talking about women slash girls as grade school, as college students, as people in the workforce, as older women. I'm going to talk about the whole lifespan.
00:04:41
Speaker
of women here. So I'm going to start with talking basically going to grade school. So what do I wish the average person knew? And so I'm going to begin by saying that the presentation in girls and women is different. So with boys slash little boys, people are generally able to recognize the symptoms and they're diagnosed pretty early on.
00:05:10
Speaker
You know, they're allowed, they have behaviors. You know, it's just a lot more in your face and obvious. And the girls are a totally different story. We're finding so many women getting diagnosed with ADHD and autism as adults.
00:05:26
Speaker
because they were overlooked as children due to masking. The girls might have as extreme outward behaviors and they're perceived as nice and good girls. Every time I hear that, it makes me want to gag just a little bit. The amount of conversations that I've had, not even pertaining to ADHD and autism, but just like the times that girls are told to be good girls and how much damage that does later on.
00:05:55
Speaker
How much you end up suppressing about your personality and like your natural characteristics, like your assertiveness and things like that, just get like squashed because you're trained to be a nice, good girl.
Trauma and Misdiagnosis Challenges
00:06:08
Speaker
And then it leads women and girls to not getting support or early intervention. So then they don't get the awareness or skill sets needed to navigate life as an adult with ADHD or autism. So they don't get that early intervention that perhaps the boys with the outward loud symptoms get. So they kind of have to start from the beginning, getting diagnosed at 18, 20, 25.
00:06:37
Speaker
with some of the different life skill sets that the boys may have gotten earlier on. So another thing I wish the average person knew is this is kind of like a tie-in to trauma. Most of the people that I see and deal with have trauma from being parented and schooled under the umbrella of being neurotypical.
00:07:04
Speaker
um think uh you know it's like this for in school it's like this one size fits all type of situation um and and it's really not i've heard actually a lot of parents um kind of have regrets and be like man i just didn't know how to raise you i didn't know you know that that you were dealing with this and i would have done things a little bit differently but like i thought children were supposed to act this way and that this was what i was supposed to do about it
00:07:31
Speaker
And so there is a lot of trauma that arises later on from trying to fit into a neurotypical box.
00:07:41
Speaker
I don't think I've ever really, really thought about that. I mean, I have about how hard that must have been to go without a diagnosis because we see, like you said, they didn't have access to the resources and the health that they needed, right? But I haven't really thought about that from a trauma perspective. But that's what trauma is so much in childhood, is not getting your needs met. And the message is that you end up internalizing about yourself when those needs go unmet.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yes, yes. And I have actually heard people say, like via the parenting thing, my parents beat the autism out of me. Oh my God. Which basically means the parents thought they were weird and annoying and were perhaps abusive verbally or physically because of the weird annoying kid that they didn't know how to handle. And then the kids learned how to mask so well that they no longer qualified in a clinical sense
00:08:40
Speaker
for an autism diagnosis. Okay, so masking is a term that I've heard before that you're using. Can you like define that a little bit? Help me understand that.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yes, so I kind of wanted to do like a little bit of a visualization. And this is actually, I made this about like how I feel when I go to CEUs, kind of, or when I'm in just, you know, really, most social events where, you know, I don't know a whole lot of people or, and this is kind of how I felt in school too. So you're in a room full of people.
00:09:14
Speaker
and you're looking around and you realize nobody is like you. You feel like you are an alien from another planet. You thought you wore the right thing, but now you realize it's quite different from what everybody else is wearing. You're sensitive to certain clothes and fabrics, so you have to keep your fashion pretty specific. You think you're saying things that are funny or interesting, and then you realize you've been talking for way too long and nobody's paying attention to what you're saying.
00:09:43
Speaker
You realize that people are in groups, they're laughing, and they're socializing while you're finding yourself alone. You realize, you know, kind of in that moment, oh wait, I need to try to identify and fit in with the people around me. And you start grasping at different ways to be perceived as normal. And then, you know, doing those things to try to fit in. And so these things are masculine. Yeah.
00:10:09
Speaker
When you say that, it makes me think of a quote that I'm gonna botch, I'm sure, but it's something like, if somebody tells you that you're high functioning, whether it's anxiety, high functioning, depression, high functioning, ADHD, whatever it is, that high functioning just means that you make it easier for other people. But it doesn't mean that your experience is any easier. It just means that it's more palatable for other people and you can fit into their norm better.
00:10:38
Speaker
And it doesn't credit like all the extra footwork you're doing to be perceived that way. If you are high functioning, that actually is probably more exhausting because you're having to work so hard to meet other people's expectations and make them comfortable.
Living Authentically and Therapy Approaches
00:10:53
Speaker
Right. But it's like taking so much effort on your part.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Which brings me to the next part of masking, which is this means you're not living your true authentic self. You're doing what needs to be done to pass as a normal individual. So you're sacrificing your true self in order to fit into these boxes that other people have created, like school, work, friendships, workshops, or any kind of social norms. Now,
00:11:21
Speaker
some degree of masking is necessary. Like, you know, there are basic social skills that, you know, we need to be able to order fruit, right? You know, or, you know, have certain interactions, you know, kids that are like, Mom, you need to order for me, you know, like, you can't do that forever, right? Um, so you there's, there's some things that you have to be able to do to interact with the rest of the world.
00:11:48
Speaker
But I do believe there are ways to create a life, a quality life worth living around who we truly are like at our core center. I love that.
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, and there is space for everybody. You know, not everybody follows this specific direction in life, you know, like college, career, marriage, kids, you know, not everybody has the same milestones and we kind of have to throw all of that out the window when we're, you know, talking about, you know, people with different neurodrive vergences.
00:12:25
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, because I think that I think a lot of times when people go to therapy they think how can I change so that I can
00:12:38
Speaker
Because if you think that you stick out, you think that that's the thing that you need to change, right? So that you can fit in better. Right. And that's so inauthentic. Like you said, like I love what you just said about like, you're not living according to like who you really are. And that's that's no way to live. And so what you're saying is like coming to therapy helps you actually
00:12:58
Speaker
know yourself better, accept yourself more and be able to live a more authentic life. Yes. Yes. And one small example, some people might have debates about this, but I have a lot of parents come to me, Oh, can you see my, you know, 15 to, you know, 25 year old daughter, you know, they, they don't have any friends.
00:13:22
Speaker
They don't do sports. They need help making friends. And it's like, OK. And then we start talking. And the question that comes up for me is, well, do you want friends? And nobody's ever gone there with them. And a lot of times, it's like they're not really interested. It's just like society has put this idea into parents and kids' heads that we have to have these social groups and play soccer and do these different social norms.
00:13:51
Speaker
a lot of, you know, neurodivergent people, they might just want to identify with their families, or, you know, I identify with their, you know, work or their their friends on the video games, because like, they don't want to have that face to face contact. And, you know, just it looks very differently for everybody. I like that too, because it really I imagine in your work, you spend a lot of time like,
00:14:15
Speaker
really realizing what society puts on us and how so much of what we think is like quote unquote normal is actually like ah or is that really me or is that what what society has told me I'm supposed to have and do and be those kind of things right like because I think you're right like I work a lot with people who are naturally just very introverted
00:14:39
Speaker
And they come to therapy because they're having like a lot of social anxiety say. And so their goal when they come in is I want to be less socially anxious because society has told them they need to be extroverted. And some of the work we do is to actually say, for what? Are you happy? Are you happy staying at your house and reading on a Friday night?
Societal Norms and Personal Goals
00:15:01
Speaker
And they're like, yeah, like I much prefer it. But they've been told that that's not a good thing. And so
00:15:07
Speaker
It's almost like their goals shift from how do I get rid of this social anxiety to how do I accept that I'm just as worthy being introverted and having like one or two friends and you don't even require a lot of like time with them.
00:15:22
Speaker
Right, right. Absolutely be an introvert at home in that that's like that's almost like the the validation they need to say like there is nothing wrong with it and I've definitely gone through that because I have a sister who is the most extroverted social butterfly in the entire world like
00:15:40
Speaker
And I'm so the opposite. Like I'm very introverted. And for years I tried to force myself because I thought that that's what I was supposed to do. And now I'm just like perfectly happy to be at home on a Friday night. And it's so freeing to like be able to tell myself I'm not wrong for this.
00:15:56
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. And then ultimately you have more quality of life and you are a happier individual, which is kind of like what it's all about. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So back to ADHD and autism, what does that look like in your practice? Working with clients. What does that therapy look like?
00:16:20
Speaker
Sure. Back to what we were just talking about. I work on not changing someone inherently. Your personality traits, your characteristics, a lot of those things cannot be changed, so why are we going to try to force someone to change those things? We do work on basic skill sets that you need to navigate the world.
00:16:43
Speaker
And then we really get into specifics on accommodations. Now accommodations can be official or unofficial, but accommodations in grade school, college, jobs, and social settings. So I have some clients that when they have to be in a social setting,
00:17:02
Speaker
and they will bring like a bag of things that make them feel comfortable or they'll wear like fidget spinner jewelry or you know we we set up accommodations and prepare for these things you know like if they have to speak at work or they're doing a job interview or trying to figure out what major they're going to do in college you know obviously like public speaking that's going to be a really hard class how are we going to get through that maybe we'll do that online you know yeah
00:17:31
Speaker
just ways to kind of navigate this system while being able to maintain who we are. So sometimes, I think it's like the social work part of me, like sometimes we're, you know, we're on college websites, you know, picking out like the classes and trying to, you know, navigate when a good time to take those classes is basis off of what we function best during the day.
00:17:56
Speaker
So I also focus on what I call, well, two things, a whole body perspective and a lifespan perspective. And I'm going to first, I want to talk about the whole body perspective, which involves a lot of check-ins with basic needs. Because a lot of times people with ADHD and autism really struggle with the mind-body connection.
00:18:18
Speaker
They don't plan their hunger. They don't know the last time they drank a cup of water. Sometimes they can't tell. I know for me, I've been in just a horrible mood, acted crappy to a bunch of people, and then the end of the day I'm like, oh, I have a sinus infection. Didn't know. I didn't have that kind of awareness to make that connection, especially in my younger years.
00:18:42
Speaker
But I know this is going to sound so basic and almost funny, but every session is like, are you drinking enough water? And most of the time it's no, and then sometimes it's still no, but a lot of clients, they start and they're like, oh, I actually feel a little bit better. Ignoring basic needs is a huge part of ADHD and autism.
00:19:02
Speaker
And so we, you know, also, you know, are you sleeping well, you know, maybe that has a tie to how anxious you're feeling today, or, you know, how not productive you're feeling today. So those just basic life check ins.
00:19:19
Speaker
And then for the lifespan perspective, I like to focus on what people want their life to look like in the next 5, 10, 20 years. What is going to give them quality of life? What are their goals going to be?
00:19:37
Speaker
Because, like I said before, neurotypical people might want kind of standard life goals, college graduation, a good group of friends, brunch on a Sunday, mimosas, a relationship, a wedding.
00:19:54
Speaker
Children, you know, things that look like that, you know, a gender reveal party, like, you know, things like the neurotypical, you know, like parents are probably like, oh, I can't wait for this, this and this. But, you know, in those with autism and ADHD, they might not be interested in, you know, some or any of those things. So their lifespan goals are going to look very different. And so we have to like adjust the therapy based on on those goals.
00:20:22
Speaker
But imagine like if it again, like if it's not typical, if it's not normal, it's hard to even like come up with that for yourself. Because think about it like, if you're neurotypical, and those all of those things are on your list, you didn't really think of those things yourself.
00:20:37
Speaker
Right. That path has already been defined for you. And side note, it's largely disappointing for a lot of people to follow that path, right? Yes. But that's besides the point. But you didn't have to think of that plan for yourself. You're just following almost like a script. But if you're talking about working with your clients to define that for themself, I would imagine it's kind of like, OK, cool. I can give myself permission to come up with it on my own. But where do I start?
00:21:07
Speaker
I feel like starting at, I try to get clients to make a list of what they like and who they are at a very basic sense. I remember when I was 20, I did this for myself and I was like, I like smoothies.
00:21:24
Speaker
you know, I started very basic things. Like, I don't even I'm not even exactly sure who I am. So I need to start like, taking some of this stuff down. And then, you know, like, they're, you know, their five year goal may be like, on Friday nights, I want to read in my bed, you know, like, I just want to be able to get to that point where I'm having a quality life. And this is what that entails.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it doesn't need to be these big grandiose things. It just needs to involve. And it doesn't have to be spectacular. Not everybody backpacks across Europe. Just having a life worth living and well-lived. I love that. And I think a lot of people
00:22:11
Speaker
FOMO immediately comes up, right? Like how our society is obsessed with having Instagram worthy lives. Right? Picture perfect. Like, like you said, like these, like life is supposed to be full of these really big moments, but that's not life. That's not
00:22:29
Speaker
Right, life is the little moments. And I always tell my clients to find what gives you peace, hold on to it, and never let it go. I know for a lot of my clients, I consider this inner child work, but they go back and rewatch their Disney movies. If that's working for you, I don't care who has a problem with it, keep doing it. Whatever it is that helps you to regulate and brings you peace in your life, I'm fine with it.
00:22:59
Speaker
So we didn't talk about this question before. Some of us kind of throw it at you, but I'm always curious, like when people reach out for therapy.
00:23:08
Speaker
What do they already know about themselves? Do most of your clients come to you already having a clinical diagnosis typically?
Identifying Symptoms Beyond Diagnoses
00:23:20
Speaker
Or there are some people that are very new to you in exploring their struggles and you start to notice, I think maybe I'm seeing some of this. What is that usually like? So I have had a lot of females come to me with extreme debilitating anxiety.
00:23:38
Speaker
Okay. And they can't pinpoint it. It comes on for no reason. It has a lot of physical effects, pain in the chest, trouble breathing, things like that. And as we dig deeper, we can find some
00:23:58
Speaker
symptoms of ADHD and autism like okay like in ADHD you can't effectively like prioritize and organize and then you're not getting anything done and then you are paralyzed. I call it the ADHD paralysis. You know you have fallen into a hole and you cannot get out of that hole.
00:24:18
Speaker
And so, you know, as we dig deeper, we can kind of find like the source. And so I don't know if I would so much call it like a wrong diagnosis or possibly additional diagnosis. But well, this is kind of why I like the term neurodiversity. Like instead of like, you know, super specific stuff, because everybody kind of has their own unique specific makeup, and then we just have to find what works for people's individual brains.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's how I've always felt about diagnoses because that's usually a yes or no black or white, you have it or you don't. And that just doesn't work for the average person, right? And so what you're saying is like, you're less focused on the diagnosis and more the person and the makeup of their particular struggles, but also their strengths and also like finding themselves with it too.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So if someone is suspecting that maybe they have ADHD or autism, at what point do you recommend that someone actually go for a clinical diagnosis where they have to go through all the testing? And what does that testing even look like?
00:25:31
Speaker
So yeah, psychovals are, well, first I'm gonna say they're a commitment. Yeah, they are. They are, even with insurance, without insurance, you're looking probably at three to $5,000. With insurance, you're looking at probably at least $1,000. And a lot of insurance doesn't cover, is that right? Like I think I've- Right, where they'll cover this part, but not that part.
00:25:58
Speaker
And it's like, you know, five day process, usually, not consecutively, like over a month or two months. And I usually recommend, I mean, it would be nice if everybody got them. And a lot of people do, you know, schools provide them, you know, so that's how people get initiated if, you know, the school's identified some sort of issue.
00:26:23
Speaker
but for a lot of these folks that hasn't happened and so there's a lot of barriers in adulthood to getting them because they're not free and you have to self advocate and you know find somebody and you know is it the right person to do the psych eval. I read psych evals all the time and you know sometimes
00:26:43
Speaker
Um, you know, they're kind of mid-level whatever, you know, 15 pages, but I've gotten ones that are like 44 pages and like half of that is like recommendations on accommodations for how that person could be living a better life.
00:26:59
Speaker
um and i mean psychopaths are great to me they're artwork like wow i i just i love i love i love a good psychopath um well i'm going to shout out mind and motion in swani does the best psychopaths i've ever seen in my life um so yeah uh but uh it's but yeah so so again they're their commitment they're difficult for adults but i do recommend them because they
00:27:28
Speaker
A lot of times it helps people to see it on paper and to be able to identify with, oh, okay, I've been feeling this way for so long with no name or no understanding of what's going on in my brain and body. And now I can answer and now I can come up with specific treatment for those things. There's specific options. And so it can be very helpful to see it on paper. But on the flip side, it is a lot.
00:27:57
Speaker
Like, when I'm reading them, I put myself in my client or their parent's position and it's heavy. And like, I sometimes I cried a little when, you know, because it's it's just, you know, it's a lot to basically see your life story and kind of brain map on a piece of paper. So there's two sides to them.
00:28:24
Speaker
Hey everyone, I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session.
Social Media's Role in Mental Health Awareness
00:28:32
Speaker
If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:28:49
Speaker
So that leads me into another question I had, which we talked a little bit before we started recording, and that is TikTok, TikTok and Instagram and how I feel like ADHD, especially, um, I have seen lately, it's almost like it's trending. And I think that as humans, we naturally do this where when
00:29:12
Speaker
more information is available and people are shining light on something. All of a sudden it's everywhere. It's kind of like I see things about narcissism everywhere right now. Um, but I'm seeing that a lot where there's all kinds of like reels and tick talks about my, my ADHD brain. And then they go on to say something that they're claiming is a symptom of ADHD.
00:29:36
Speaker
And I have had friends and clients come in and they're convinced that they have ADHD because of social media. Can you speak a little bit about that of maybe like there are pros and cons to that information being out there and like how it's affecting not just your clients, but like other people that you know.
00:29:56
Speaker
Yes, I think it's funny, you know, with social media, we're like connected all the time, but also disconnected all the time. So I think we're a little bit, in a sense, we're lonely, and we want to feel a part of something.
00:30:13
Speaker
And so you see something that may be relatable and you want to feel a part of it. And it may, I don't know, I like to say symptoms of, instead of...
00:30:28
Speaker
You may be experiencing symptoms of whatever that diagnosis of TikTok is, but that doesn't mean you are bipolar one and schizoaffective, right? I've actually seen a huge uptick in dissociative identity disorder.
00:30:47
Speaker
I had something that must have gotten released and I had a lot of clients all of a sudden, they're sure of it. As a therapist, you know about parts work. We all have parts in our living room of our brain and those parts come out at different times and it certainly does not mean that you have dissociative identity disorder.
00:31:09
Speaker
um so there's a lot of stuff out there and there's a lot of people that want to be a part of stuff but it doesn't really uh mean that it's accurate but i feel like if you can identify with something and it makes you feel better then i'm fine with it
00:31:28
Speaker
Like, if you saw that TikTok and you recognized a piece of yourself in that and you said, oh my gosh, somebody else feels that way too, this, you know, now I feel better than, you know, ultimately it was a positive experience and that's okay.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah, I'm even thinking about what you said before about it being a spectrum. And so if we look at everything as a spectrum, if you've got like the more intense severe on one end, the other one, we probably all have
00:32:00
Speaker
symptoms of, like you said, like symptoms of the same way we all have symptoms of narcissism, right? Like we can all have those symptoms of, and it doesn't mean, again, like you have a clinical diagnoses where you would need medication or specific interventions or things like that. You might just have a symptom of it. And if that's something that someone is posting about that you can relate to, whether it's just like,
00:32:23
Speaker
Um, I don't know. Like I see things about, especially for the ADHD brain of ways to organize their life so that things are just like easier to manage, especially with like organizational skills and stuff like that. Focus more on how that could help rather than, Oh my gosh, do I need to go get a diagnosis?
00:32:42
Speaker
Yes, developing skill sets that work for you. And I also call this throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what's next. It's not all gonna work for you, you know? And if it doesn't work for you, leave it. Take what you need and leave the rest. Take it and run, just like finding your piece. Take it, hold on to it, and run with it. And don't let it go. Do you have a sense of why this is trending all of a sudden? Because there are many new ones about that.
00:33:12
Speaker
I think that, you know, obviously, like, you know, previous to today's world, there was a lot of, you know, clinical information, you know, psychologists, therapists, you know, releasing information, there was a DSM, and now, like, the general public wants to make sense of all that, and wants to talk about it, like, person to person, not professional to person. Yeah, I like that.
00:33:39
Speaker
I've actually tried to really incorporate that in my therapy practice, like come person to person. Like come as I am, I'm not better than you because I went to school for this. Like I'm a human, you're a human, you know, let's figure out how to get the most quality of life. You know, I just think being on, people like being on an even playing field. They don't wanna be in like a sterile environment with someone wearing a blazer.
00:34:06
Speaker
And no offense, I know blazers are really in style right now. But they don't want a therapist that comes into the room looking like their high school teacher that was judgmental or whatever. They want somebody that they can really identify with and relate to and feel very comfortable opening up. Yeah, 100%. I agree with that too. I think that, obviously, boundaries and things are really important. But I would say that with my clients,
00:34:35
Speaker
I probably make an older generation of therapists cringe. Right. With like coming with my authentic self because I'm like, we're dealing with trauma. Like you need to be able to feel comfortable and vulnerable with the person that you're sitting in front of. And if you think that they have their life completely all together, that's going to automatically put you in a position of feeling like you can't be as authentic with your therapist. So
00:35:00
Speaker
Yes, and I'm sure you can see them behind me. I practice with a castle in my background. I change it all the time to something else really silly or fun, but I've had people of all ages love the castle in the background. It's okay to be yourself and to be fun and to be silly, and it doesn't have to be a sterile environment.
00:35:28
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I think that even the conversations about mental health aren't like, they're not so clinical anymore. Right. Even on this podcast this season, like every therapist that I've interviewed so far, like I say, please don't make this a presentation because I'm going to fall asleep and nobody's going to listen to it.
00:35:48
Speaker
don't bring up your PowerPoint because that's not what we're here for. Yes, people have had enough about that. And they just want to be having real conversations with real people, which I think is like, and then tick tock, you know, it's like, you know, a 30 second message, you know, that's kind of what people just want a little piece, you know, here and there. And, and it's just really blown up for better or for worse.
00:36:10
Speaker
You know, sometimes I think it's a really great thing to raise awareness. But then, you know, it also people can get a little bit obsessed and, you know, kind of go down a rabbit hole of like, wait a minute, like, is my is my best friend a narcissist that they did this, this and this?
00:36:30
Speaker
You know, different things like it reminds me of us being in like grad school when all of a sudden we were like self-diagnosing and we were convinced that everybody had everything. I feel like the general population is going through that now where they're like, it's, it's being talked about, which is so good. And I'm glad that there's so much more like conversations about mental health and things like that. But I think that everybody's going through a phase of not just saying I have symptoms of, but everybody's like self-diagnosing right now.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yes. I also want to go back to 2020 COVID. We were all trapped with ourselves. For a lot of people, nobody but ourselves, or we're with our immediate family. We're forced to take a good hard look at who we are and who they are. Then I think that's when this trend started to explode.
00:37:22
Speaker
and a lot of good information, a lot of misinformation out there. But I really think that's had an impact on looking at ourselves inwardly a lot more. Yeah, that's a really good point.
Advocating for Diagnoses and Workplace Accommodations
00:37:37
Speaker
Another thing that I wanted to ask is,
00:37:41
Speaker
how can women advocate for themselves, especially if they feel like they're either being dismissed or maybe they don't have the time, the resources to get an official diagnosis, they don't have access to it. I'm just thinking about, or maybe they wouldn't actually meet criteria, right? Because if we're talking about a spectrum,
00:38:07
Speaker
Well, so this is, I mean, my answer to this is kind of like unfortunate and sad. This is hard. And I'm gonna actually use a real life example here. And it's of my sister and I have her permission to like kind of tell her little story from school. So my sister, she was quiet and well behaved.
00:38:28
Speaker
um she made okay crises you know just barely passed um she wasn't failing but she never really excelled um she would get extreme anxiety and not be able to go to school for weeks um and when she was at school she was just looking out the windows and
00:38:45
Speaker
you know just just just you know not not able to really focus or pay attention um so my mom went to the school and they're like there's something wrong here we need to do something and uh she had already gone through a diagnosis process with me so she kind of knew like what was up and the school was like oh no she's a great girl she never causes a problem we have no need to test her for any kind of learning disability so if you're not causing a problem
00:39:10
Speaker
Right, so that Christmas we went to feed the homeless with Musk Ministries and the director of the school board was feeding the homeless with us and my mom got to talking to him and he, you know, got in school to test her.
00:39:26
Speaker
and you know learning disability processing issues and then finally she was able to get accommodations she wasn't missing school after that um but it was like a pretty big fight um because she was just you know oh she's a good girl you know so um but if my mom if we hadn't been feeding the homeless at most ministries on that christmas with the school board director we probably went to been a she wouldn't have been able to get help so it's
00:39:53
Speaker
I hate to be negative, but unless you have an advocate, it's extremely hard. Because advocating for yourself is really hard and not everybody has a person in their corner on their team to push them in that direction.
00:40:19
Speaker
I'm even thinking about for your clients that you're working with, how do you help them find their voice so that they can get accommodations at work at, you know, in college, especially I'm thinking about people who might be listening to this, right?
00:40:36
Speaker
When you're outside of a school system, that phase of your life is already over and you're just in a job. How do you advise women to speak up for themselves and find their voice? Sure. Well, back to the college thing, I'll fill out all that paperwork for accommodations based on whatever the issue is.
00:41:00
Speaker
But in jobs, people don't realize that there's protection for people with disabilities. Yeah, talk about that.
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, a lot of employers, they kind of have to provide some sort of reasonable accommodations for different disabilities. And I think even if it's not official, you could do things like unofficially, like a different chair to sit in, a 10-minute break.
00:41:35
Speaker
I know for me, I would work for 50 minutes and then I would walk for 10 minutes. When I had an official job working for somebody else, that was a big problem. You're just walking all the time, aren't you? I'm like, you know, this is just how I work best and I really need you to leave me alone about it. Yeah, that's what I'm even thinking about.
00:41:57
Speaker
if you if you are doing things for yourself that knows it actually makes you a better employee, but it makes you like your day goes smoother, right? Yes. But other people, especially people that it's not their business, but you're having to provide some kind of explanation for why I have to do this. Like how do you advise people to
00:42:19
Speaker
I don't know to be able to have those conversations with people because I heard you say, well, this is what helps me. This is what makes me like function my best, but I don't know. Like I think that there are so many people that are just judgmental and make a lot of assumptions and they want you to be neurotypical, right? Like without even realizing that that's what the expectation is that they're putting on you, but essentially that's what they're asking.
00:42:42
Speaker
Yes. And I consider this kind of like the ultimate exercise in vulnerability. You know, like getting with that person, that whatever boss supervisor, that whatever the above you person is, I've never been good at hierarchy. It's hard for me to understand why people are above other people. But getting with that person and being like, okay, my brain works a little bit differently.
00:43:05
Speaker
And I can meet the job expectations. I can do what I'm supposed to do here, but I have to do it a little bit differently. And here's how that's going to go. And then there may be some negotiations, a little bit of compromise. But ultimately, I feel like my clients have been pretty successful
00:43:26
Speaker
at navigating that with vulnerability, right? Because it's hard to open up to this person that's perceived as being above you and being like, here's something that is a lifelong struggle of mine that I'm working really hard to navigate and be successful, like within the scope of it. And, you know, here are the things I need.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I would imagine just like talking about that with a therapist and role-playing a little bit, like what your phrases are that you're going to say. I would imagine that that would just feel so empowering that you're not having to figure out how to phrase things on your own. Yes. Yeah. Oh, sometimes we write emails together and like press send while we're in session. I could do that kind of thing too. Yeah.
00:44:15
Speaker
Oh, like, why not? So it, you know, that kind of thing is helpful. And a lot of times that, you know, therapist becomes the advocate. And because they're really, you know, a lot of people don't have somebody or they're an adult, so they don't have like their, you know, mom or their dad, you know, pushing for them to get a psych eval or pushing for the tutoring or the extra help, you know, that's the social worker you coming out. I love it.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yes, yeah,
Therapeutic Groups and Personal Development
00:44:41
Speaker
absolutely. So a lot of people don't know the difference between like the different degrees that you can get to become a therapist. But Megan and I both have a degree in social work. And I think that that's a huge component of it is it's not just learning therapy and like how our inner working like our mind works and our relationships and stuff like that work. But it also is like big picture how much your environment
00:45:06
Speaker
Right. It changes you and that's what really drew me to social work too, is to like, you can't just take the person out of the environment and expect to do the same interventions on people when they come from different socioeconomic status, different races, different religions. Like it's not like you have to look at the entire person. So that's what you're describing as like being an adult. I love it. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And even this might be a little bit off topic, but like, you know, if people are having like an issue with their health insurance or their changing jobs, like
00:45:35
Speaker
We get on there, we navigate the marketplace, and because if they lose their health insurance, they can't see me anymore. They can't get their medicine. They can't see their psychiatrist. They're gonna lose all access to those services. So letting people know what services are out there, what resources are out there, connecting with those. I feel like that's a lot of the social work piece, which I love, is being aware of these resources and connecting
00:46:02
Speaker
with the resources. Yeah, for sure. Another thing that I wanted to ask you is about a resource that you just kind of put together. I saw that you did like an immersive experience. And I thought that was so cool. Can you tell us about that? Yes, absolutely. And this is
00:46:18
Speaker
It's for everybody, but especially women with autism and ADHD. Everybody has sensory sensitivities and things that they're sensory seeking with. Some people can't handle loud noises or certain fabrics, and then some people love bright colors.
00:46:39
Speaker
loud and fast you know everybody has different like sensory needs and so in my sensory immersion group we go through about like 20 different types of experience for every sense so you smell different things and you rate them on a one to ten is it soothing or do you hate it and it makes you feel terrible oh that's so interesting
00:47:03
Speaker
Yes, and then what you like you take you keep you take you know if peppermint works for you great lavender you hated it don't take it you have to learn something about yourself because you're learning like. What the kind of like what a trigger is and what it does so that you can shape your environment around that too right.
00:47:21
Speaker
Yes, and also getting to know yourself more and decision making. I saw in the group people struggle with their one to 10, like, oh, I don't know if I trust myself enough to identify if I even liked that or not. That's interesting. You're trusting yourself and you're getting to know yourself more based off of all these decisions. And then for sight, we had sun catchers and pretty pictures.
00:47:51
Speaker
just all kinds of images and quotes and just things that would, if they worked for you, could be soothing visually. That is so interesting. When I saw your advertisement about it, that's not what I thought it was.
00:48:10
Speaker
Which I, oh, I guess I don't know what I thought. But I didn't really, like, I guess I thought it was like a, like we, when people go do like sound bath and stuff like that. So I thought it was a. We did Tibetan singing bowls. We did, you know, the steel drum, you know, we did 20 different types of music. And, you know, some of it is like kind of sound bath related. But we, you know, we went deep into every sense.
00:48:38
Speaker
That is so awesome. We call them calm down toys or fidgets or fidget jewelry and everybody got to pick out what works for them and everybody got a tote bag and got to fill it up with whatever works for them sensory wise so that they always have something to go to. I work with a lot of young women and young women are kind of transient in a sense.
00:49:00
Speaker
and they might be in high school and then they're going to a college and that college they didn't like and then they're moving to another college and this is a bag they could bring with them no matter where they're going or on vacation or you know whatever so they always have something to go to that is sensory soothing based off of their own specific needs.
00:49:17
Speaker
That is freaking awesome. I love that idea. So is it like a one day experience? What was it? Yes, it's a one day experience for two hours in a very comfortable, soothing environment. And honestly, I consider it, we just play.
00:49:34
Speaker
You know, we are there to play. Whether we're children or adults, we need to keep in touch with the ability to play. And so we are just messing around with stuff and playing different instruments, just finding out what works for us and what doesn't. Do you feel like two hours of doing that though? Would that put you into any kind of sensory overload almost?
00:49:59
Speaker
I mean, it certainly could if we used like really heavy sensory stuff. I could just imagine being exhausted by the end of that of like, oh, like so many good things at once, right?
00:50:16
Speaker
Yes, yes. So, you know, I'm sure that's possible. We try to keep it pretty low energy. Gotcha. Yeah. So are you going to do more of those? Because I think that people would, I would, I would love to give that as a resource to people and put it in the show notes so people will be able to register if you do more of those.
00:50:32
Speaker
Yes, I want to do them monthly or quarterly, and my first one I only offered to my clients, but next time I'm going to offer it to the general public. They're not large groups, probably four people max, because I want everyone to have the space to play and experience these things, but I definitely want to do more of them.
00:50:54
Speaker
Another group that I'm, you know, kind of in the works coming up with is crafting and coping, where we have like a hundred different coping skills on the table. And we pick things that would work for us and we create like this really beautiful wooden box to put them in. And then, you know, we can just draw out a coping skill for when we need it. I love that. I love that so much.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. So that's, that's coming up, but I don't, I don't, I don't have an exact date for it yet. Well, I'm going to make sure to give everybody your contact information so that they can just kind of like follow along and contact you if, if that's something that they're interested in. Yes. And I have some of my resources on my website, um, www.meganthetherapist.com. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. I'll put that in the show notes too. Um, is there anything that you wanted to share that we didn't get to today? Um, I know you had some really big points that you wanted to make sure that we covered. So is there anything that we.
00:51:51
Speaker
Sure, no. I'm glad you brought up the sensory group because sensory sensitivities and sensory seeking was a big thing I wanted to talk about. A lot of people go their whole lives without realizing what they are, sensitive or seeking. I know when I was a kid, I would walk back and forth. Yeah.
00:52:09
Speaker
okay and like that was like a weird thing but now I know that's like a stim right that's like that's like something that neurodivergent people do and it like helps them to regulate um so I I think um you know being able to identify um you know I know especially with kids like hey um do you
Self-Acceptance and Episode Conclusion
00:52:28
Speaker
do you like certain fabrics or do you like to wear certain types of clothes and they're always like oh yes absolutely like I can't wear this but I always wear this you know
00:52:36
Speaker
That sort of thing. Um, so, you know, I love I love the sensory stuff. I'm really into this sensory stuff
00:52:43
Speaker
So to wrap up, I always ask my guests this one question because I'm so into our parts work. I just love to ask this question. So if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing now that you have all of this life experience and knowledge and wisdom that you have, if you could go back and tell her one thing, what would it be? And it doesn't have to be related to what we talked about today necessarily, but what would you want her to know?
00:53:06
Speaker
Sure. So this is just a little bit of background. Since like first and second grade, I was in special education and the gifted program. And that is now known as being twice exceptional. But in 1992, that was just Megan, the weird girl. Like there was nobody else in both programs and they did not know what to do with me. And I didn't know what to do with myself.
00:53:36
Speaker
And I didn't know, you know, should I play with these kids or these kids or, you know, the kids in my, you know, regular ed class or I was taken out of the classroom a lot into, you know, gifted day. And then, you know, for, you know, some math, I was taken to the special education room. And so I was kind of really all over the place and I didn't know how to fit in, where I wanted to fit in.
00:54:02
Speaker
And so I would have my younger self really focused on self-acceptance, appreciating my quirks and my differences. I would tell myself it's okay to be yourself. You don't have to try to be anything else. There's one little story. When I was in probably sixth or seventh grade, Abercrombie and Fitch was really cool.
00:54:29
Speaker
my parents take me there and like we didn't have a whole lot of money so like there was this one like sweater on sale and i was like all right if i could just get this sweater i'll be so cool at school it'll be fine the sweater was scratchy and itchy and i hated it and i could not be myself in it and i wore it probably a couple times a week like i just like trying to fit in trying so hard and and it's just you know i wish i could tell myself to just burn the sweater and you know
00:54:57
Speaker
keep getting 100% cotton. And that's who I try to be for other people is to kind of just sit down face to face with somebody and say who you are in this moment is completely okay. And I fully accept you and I really want to help you accept yourself. Oh my God, I love that so much. You are such an incredible person. Oh Julie, thank you. I'm so glad I know you. I'm so glad I know you too.
00:55:27
Speaker
Well, thank you for being here today. I'm sure people are going to have like a lot of questions and so I'm going to make sure to put all of your information in the show notes so that you guys can contact Megan, especially if you want to work with her. I think that's all we have today. Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for being here. Hope everybody has a good week. We'll talk to you next time. Bye.
00:55:55
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of outside of session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.