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Carrying the Mental Load: The Invisible Weight of Family Life
65 Plays6 days ago
Ever feel like you're the one keeping track of everything—appointments, grocery lists, school events, and that one sock no one can seem to find? In this episode, I sat down with maternal mental health expert, Stephanie Landrum, to talk about the mental load—the often invisible, exhausting responsibility of managing a household and family life. We’ll explore why this burden tends to fall unevenly, how it impacts mental health, and most importantly, what we can do about it. Whether you're feeling overwhelmed or looking for ways to redistribute the load, this conversation is for you.
About today's guest:
Stephanie Landrum is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia and a national certified counselor. She is the owner of Mind in Bloom Counseling in the Metro Atlanta area and has been practicing for over a decade. She specializes in work with clients who struggle with anxiety disorders, OCD, stress and burnout, life transitions, self-esteem and perfectionism. Stephanie also enjoys working with college students, young adults, and high-achieving professionals. She has extensive training in perinatal mental health and enjoys helping parents at all stages of life. She is currently the mental health advisor for the NICU Parent Club, which is a non-profit organization in South Metro Atlanta helping to support the parents during and after a NICU stay. She also provides consultation and assessments for local parents through the Community Action for Improvement and Head Start programs in several Metro Atlanta counties. Stephanie provides consultation services for both licensed therapists as well as community and corporate programs.
Get in touch:
Website: www.mindinbloomcounseling.com
Instagram: @mindinbloomcounseling
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 3: Mental Health and Life Balance
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back to Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. Season three is all about navigating life's challenges and finding balance. We're continuing the conversations around mental health and I'm once again joined by expert guests who share their stories and tips and hopes to inspire you on your journey of healing and growth.
Family Mental Load with Stephanie Landrum
00:00:37
Speaker
Hey everyone and welcome back to Outside of Session. This week I've got an awesome episode for you and I have a feeling that this one, a lot of women especially are going to find a lot of validation in it and hopefully find it to be really helpful as well.
00:00:52
Speaker
I sat down with Stephanie Landrum who you might remember from last season and we are going to be talking about carrying the mental load of the family. Oh my gosh. There's so much good information here and I can't wait to hear your feedback on it because this is a topic that it's finally getting a lot of attention and we really just wanted to add our voices to that conversation today.
00:01:15
Speaker
So a little bit about Stephanie, she is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia and a national certified counselor. She's the owner of Mind & Bloom counseling and here in the Metro Atlanta area and she has been practicing for over a decade. She specializes in work with clients who struggle with anxiety disorders, OCD, stress and burnout, life transition, self-esteem and perfectionism, which was one of the things that we talked a lot about today.
00:01:41
Speaker
Stephanie also enjoys working with college students, young adults, and high-achieving professionals. She has extensive training in perinatal mental health and enjoys helping parents of all stages of life. She is currently the mental health advisor for the NICU Parent Club, which is a nonprofit organization in South Metro Atlanta helping to support the parents during and after a NICU stay. She also provides consultation and assessments for local parents through the Community yeah Action for Improvement and Head Start programs in several metro Atlanta counties. I did not know all of this about Stephanie until she ah sent me over her bio and that is just so impressive to me. She's doing so many good things and such good work in our community.
00:02:21
Speaker
Stephanie also provides consultation services for both licensed therapists as well as community on corporate programs. And I will make sure to put Stephanie's contact information in the show notes so that if you want to check her out on Instagram or on her website, you'll be able to get in touch with her. So help me welcome Stephanie and I hope you enjoy today's episode as we talk about carrying the mental load.
Understanding Mental Load in Families
00:02:44
Speaker
Stephanie, hey, thank you so much for being here today. Yeah, thanks so much for having me again. It's good to be back. I know we have um done a pretty good job of keeping in touch, at least through Instagram on what's been going on in life. um And when I decided that I wanted to do an episode on this topic, I just knew you'd be the perfect person for it. I'm excited to talk about something that I definitely feel strongly about. and in my personal life, but also professionally and clients that I see it's something that comes up so much. Yeah, I would imagine you especially being in the realm of maternal mental health. Um, I'm sure you see this daily. Yes. Yes. Definitely. And you know, something that I typically go over with people is what it is. A lot of people don't know they hear like mental load and and things like that. And they're not,
00:03:33
Speaker
When I bring it up, they're not sure what it is. And so kind of going into that definition to let them know, like, this is a thing. This is adding to your stress or anxiety or, you know, when we see postpartum mood or anxiety disorders, um this can be a big part of it. And and working on this can really help. um a lot of that, take take some relief. It doesn't fix it, but it can it can be a good place to start. Yeah, um absolutely. So yeah, why don't we start by you just kind of sharing how you define the mental load and how you're seeing it show up with but the people that you work with? Yeah. So typically we're talking about it in, you know or at least
00:04:15
Speaker
Society looks at it in a heterosexual um you know couple. So husband, wife, mother, father, and you know mostly with people that have children. So it's it's related to parenting and all those invisible tasks required to keep a household running. um It's that cognitive burden. And some examples just include there's a huge, huge list. But you know keeping track of food and remembering when and what you have and when you have to go back to the store, scheduling appointments, remembering and keeping track of things your children need at school or if they need new clothes, um you know, who might have a dance class on what day, and if the kids get sick, who's going to call out and take that over, but then make up their work later. It's it's a never ending list of tasks that, you know, most often or
00:05:04
Speaker
majority of of women kind of keep in their brain just swirling around um and it never ends. um And it's taking all the moving parts of parenting and adulthood and trying to keep them moving smoothly. And that's kind of the best way I can kind of summarize that.
Mental Load and Its Impact on Mental Health
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I like that you use the word invisible because I think it's so much of it is just like the default. Like you don't even realize that you're keeping up with it. So when it's things like who your kid's primary care doctor is, um like different allergy information and um I don't know, just like medical stuff. Like there's so many different pieces that especially for the moment gets logged in your brain one time and you're the keeper of that information forever. You're the go-to for holding all of that.
00:05:55
Speaker
It's definitely it feels like an invisible responsibility. Yes, it's like you have become the new USB drive or the computer for everything and it has the storage and it's just in there. You know, a lot of times I'll tell people to like, you know, it's like having a web browser open constantly with 100 different tabs and all those tabs are related to something to do with your family. Like you said, whether it's the doctor's name and phone number and allergies or you know and depending on how many children you have or you know what the dynamics look like in your household, those are all open. And you may be able to close a couple, but they're gonna be more that pop back open because as your children grow and you have more life experiences, and stuff gets added to the list. And it's like, you have to pull out that filing cabinet and and file it. But you know thinking about yourself, even as that computer that has the web browser open, like what does it do? It slows it down, it makes it,
00:06:48
Speaker
you know, its memory kind of slows down. It might glitch a little bit. And a lot of times that's where I see moms kind of coming in and saying like, Oh my gosh, like I feel like I might have ADHD. I feel like I'm all over the place. My memory is not as good. Um, or we might see, you know, kind of more like anxiety or depression because it's just overwhelming and it leads moms typically to a place of burnout. And, and then we start seeing stuff that's associated with that.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You said moms typically. um And I wanted to ask like why I have my own thoughts about this, but why do you think it defaults to mom so much? So a couple different reasons. um A lot of it kind of comes down to those societal norms. So a lot of people kind of grew up in those more traditional households where either, you know, dad was the only one who worked or he held the full time job and maybe mom did part time. But the kind of traditional roles too of like,
00:07:50
Speaker
the mom takes care of the kids more or um those kind of expectations, you know, even like depending on what you choose to do once your baby's born, you know, if there's breastfeeding involved, you know, the feeding aspect can kind of default more to the mom. um and And stuff kind of stays that way, like behaviorally, you know, it might kind of be like, oh, well, now once the baby's done breastfeeding and dad's charge of feeding, you know, it's,
00:08:17
Speaker
adjusting to that and things like that. But yeah, so those societal norms and there was a study that they came out with pretty recently and they talked about um that women carry on average 79% of the mental load within the home. Wow. Yeah. So I mean, a study ah confirms it, you know, that women are, I mean, that's a big percentage and yeah the husbands or men typically had, um,
00:08:44
Speaker
more, they were more in charge of what they called episodic tasks. So they looked at, you know, repairs in the household, financial stuffs, things that kind of, it had an end to it. So they were able to kind of say, okay, I cut the grass or I fixed the leaky faucet and it's over. Where moms- It needs to be done one time. Yes, yes. Where moms, it's, you know, every day the kids needs lunch for school. Every, you know, couple hours the baby needs to be fed or,
00:09:11
Speaker
you know all those different things where it's never ending and they don't get to kind of close the book at night and and have a nice kind of closure to it. yeah um I apologize for this in advance, but I'm going to go on a little bit of a feminist rant. Go for it. Because this is one thing that I have like really strong feelings about. I think that you're right. like Back in the 1950s when women stayed home, it was a full-time job to run the household. so They had carried all of this, but that was their full-time job. and
00:09:45
Speaker
Men were busy ah creating what like corporate America looked like, and so they were climbing the ladder and like mastering the skills required to provide, while women mastered the skills required to run a household. And then when you we see the shift where women started working part-time and more recently full-time, most households need two incomes now.
00:10:07
Speaker
Women have entered the workforce and we have been put in a position where we have had to catch up to men. And and this the standard has been, well, if you want to work with us, then you need to perform at our levels. And so women are totally capable, obviously, like but we didn't have a choice. Like we have to perform at the same level men do at work.
00:10:29
Speaker
so we now But we still have mastered all the skills that it requires to run a household. And I think that men have not been held to that same standard, where they are still ah encouraged and taught to have all of the skills to work a full-time job. But women hold those same that same skill set now, too. But men have not been asked or required or expected to learn the skills required to run a household.
00:10:54
Speaker
because those responsibilities are still defaulting to
Gender Roles and Mental Load
00:10:58
Speaker
women. And I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today is like, how do we get, I mean, there are a lot of like really good spouses that want to be helpful, but they want to be told what to do. And that is part of the frustration that a lot of women are having right now. Um, and I'm gonna let you go into all of that. But I think that that's where the gap is, is that we have had to learn a brand new skill set over the last few decades and men didn't have to. And so it's all falling on the women. Okay. That's it. im Yeah.
00:11:24
Speaker
No, I love it. Thank you for for talking about all of that. it's It's hard, too, and I'm glad you mentioned you know the part where women more and more women are having to work full time, not even necessarily because they want to. Now, some do, and yeah you know that's great. You know you want a career and and you can have that choice, but some women, they don't have the choice, and so they're having to kind of choose between, okay, well, I want a child, but I know I'm going to have to work full time to make ends meet. And then there's that sticky middle of childcare and how much that costs are not having that available to you. I mean, that's a whole and nother, you know, soapbox I could jump on. um
00:12:05
Speaker
and And that's so hard um to have to make that decision and then to have the full-time job that's, you know, at least 40 hours a week and then come home to all of that and make sure you're having time with your children and keeping the house, quote unquote, you know, the those kind of more archaic expectations um and feeling like you have to do all of that. And if you're not doing all of it, then you're not doing enough and what's wrong with you, um which is what I feel like, you know,
00:12:34
Speaker
social media can be great but then there's the parts of social media where we see as moms like these moms that are quote unquote doing it all we don't see everything but that's what we see and that's what's kind of communicated to us and so then we look at ourselves and go well why can't we do that why can't we have the 40-hour a week job and have the beautiful house and everything perfect and our children are have all these different things and and I think that adds to it too of like in the background running just another tab of I need to have it look this way or I need to have it you know because so and so does on Instagram or a friend that you know we think has everything together. So it's it's a lot.
Perfectionism's Role in Mental Load
00:13:14
Speaker
And even when I see clients that I've worked with where
00:13:18
Speaker
The mom has more of the kind of breadwinner type role, um more of the career woman, and the husband may be almost you know either a stay-at-home dad or have more of a part-time job. The mom I've still seen put so much on herself. So even after you know that long day at work, coming home and still having the expectation for herself, not not be from the husband, but on herself that I need to drive everybody to karate and dance and I need to have a warm meal on the table and I need to do all these things.
00:13:47
Speaker
um and trying to change that and say, it's okay for your husband to do it. He's okay with doing it. I'm letting her not feel guilty or have shame. um The like kind of reverse where I have the clients that are career people and their husbands are like the stay-at-home dads. That's that' so interesting because even the study, and and I'm glad that you prefaced this by saying like we're talking about the um heteronormative.
00:14:16
Speaker
family, which is more and more becoming not the norm. Um, so I'm really curious if at some point we'll have more information on, um, if it's same sex couples or like you're talking about where it is becoming more common for the woman to work full time and dad to be a, the stay at home parent. And i I'm just so curious to hear more research is that shifts.
00:14:40
Speaker
to see if like the mental load is also shifting with it or how it shared in and other types of relationships. Yeah, I'm hoping that's something they start to look at closely in the next few years. I mean, the fact that this is like a new study is just mind boggling that it's like we're just now looking at this and having these conversations. um So hopefully, hopefully soon they'll they'll start to look into that. Yeah.
00:15:06
Speaker
So one of the questions that I wanted to ask is kind of what you were talking about with the comparison game of how we just compare our lives to what looks so perfect on the internet. Um, and is it worth mentioning that the tie of the mental load to perfectionism? Um, and I hesitate to say this because I don't want it to come off in a blaming way like it's mom's fault that she feels this way because she has perfectionism. But I do wonder if there's like space to evaluate the parts of the mental load that maybe we could look at releasing because we are telling o ourselves that things have to be perfect. And obviously, I'm not talking about things like the kids doctor's appointments and and things that have to be done. But especially in regards to I don't know, like chores around the house and the house always looking
00:15:56
Speaker
Perfect. um Like in your experience, how often are you looking at that to help mom potentially release some of the load that she maybe is telling herself she has to carry and I don't know, maybe there is room to release some of it.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, so I think that's a good point to make for sure. I think in my moms that are perfectionist, I see everything tenfold. like I see more anxiety or more depression just because there's it seems like there's more of a drive. Now, you know that's just in my experience. I don't know you know universally you know if that's the case, um but something that that I've definitely seen. um And so between the perfectionism and the anxiety of kind of having things a certain way and and the mental load of that, um the thing in common is uncertainty. So perfectionists definitely don't like uncertainty. People with anxiety don't like uncertainty either. And so so with both my perfectionists and those moms struggling with anxiety, they're both
00:17:02
Speaker
not wanting to experience
Strategies to Reduce Stress from Perfectionism
00:17:04
Speaker
uncertainty. And unfortunately, uncertainty is huge when you're an when you're in a parenting role um between you know kids getting sick and you know what they choose to do and you know all those moving parts of having a family. um And so working with perfectionists, we have to be you know looking at different parts of them, but giving them that mindful self compassion piece of it's okay not to be perfect. And, you know, maybe even digging in and kind of, you know, looking at where that perfectionism comes from, because at one point in their life, like it probably served them really well. And it probably feels really good too to have it with this, because they're, they're checking things off their list, they're probably
00:17:50
Speaker
getting that satisfaction and and reward from it. But on the other side of that, what's the pay ah like you know how is that affecting them? you know Either so much that they're, like I said before, moving towards burnout, they're depressed, they're so anxious 24 seven. Yeah, their nervous system is just wrecked. And so I think with those clients, it's harder to to let to get them to a point where they're willing to let go of some of it. um But when they do and when they can let go of it even just a little bit. I think they see so much relief and you know that that translates to other parts of their lives too. um But I do see like
00:18:32
Speaker
yeah, this part of their life with perfectionism. It's, it's exhausting. Um, it is. And I wonder how much of that, um, like there's, there's a lot of deep work to be done there, but I also wonder how much of it is like us helping each other normalize how not perfect our lives are. Um, like I had a client one time who was really struggling with these kinds of things. And, um, I shared with her that,
00:19:00
Speaker
dog hair has just become a part of my life and the when I decided to accept that my life got so much easier instead of like trying to fight it all the time because it used to cause me so much stress because I have two very big labs and they just shed so bad. And once I made space for like, there if you come to my house, there's just going to be dog hair everywhere.
00:19:22
Speaker
like I just was able to release it. like I just say that my house is very well lived in and that's why it doesn't look like a Southern Living magazine. And when I shared that with her, she was like, it's it's like something came over her of like, oh, so I can just give myself permission to not like vacuum every day, like get up all the dog care all the time. And I was like, yeah, like I've just had to learn to live with it. And it was almost like someone giving her permission to say,
00:19:48
Speaker
You don't have to stay on top of it all the time. And so and I'm sharing that desire, like, is that part of this process is us just being honest with each other and saying, my house does not look like the Instagram influencer who actually gets paid for their house to look that way, you know? Right, right. And who actually probably has, like, somebody coming to clean every so often or maybe even someone who cooks and ah a nanny or, you know, all the things that most people don't just have at their fingertips to do. So yes, definitely. I mean, it's, I think, becoming a parent in general, like, you know, yeah having to let go of the expectation of how you think things should look or thought they would have been, there's there's probably grief in that process. And, you know, for everybody, it's different. um You know, like my own situation, I had a ah baby ah several months ago and and
00:20:40
Speaker
you know we have chins thank you um and so you know i'm i'm kind of one of those people that is a perfectionist but also carries a majority of the mental load in our house and.
00:20:55
Speaker
Having more than one child at this point. I had to kind of let go of some of that and and Check in with my husband and ask him to take over some things and my perfectionism and me was screaming and saying no no, no you can't do that because what if there's something that they don't have when they go to school or what if he doesn't do it the right way quote unquote things like that and That's really hard to to let go of when you know you like things a certain way and it feels good when it's it's that way and and when there's that uncertainty of what if it doesn't get done. And so for my own mental health, you know, I've had to kind of say, okay, husband, here, here are some things I need you to do. And he's great. He's wonderful. um You know, if anything, it's me who's like not willing to give up any other control with some of the things. And so when I finally
00:21:46
Speaker
worked on letting go of some of that. you know One of the things that he does is he gets our other children ready for school in the morning um while I deal with the baby. and so He has you know full disclosure, and if he's listening to this, I'm sorry, I'm throwing you under the bus here, but I love you very much. But um you know there have been mornings where one of the kids forgot their water bottle, or they came home from school and I realized what they were wearing and it was a shirt was on backwards or something that my husband just didn't notice. and he you know But they made it to school and they were fine. And the water bottle, you know I think he either ran it up to the school that day or
00:22:24
Speaker
The teacher has cups in there if they they need water. And so they were okay. And that's something that I try to you know work with my clients on of like, it's probably going to be okay. It may not be the way you want it to be, but at the end of of the day, it will all kind of work itself out. And you know it's everyone's alive and functioning and they're okay. And it's something that initially I was like, oh, this doesn't feel good. And see if I was getting them ready for school, I would have made sure the water bottle and their clothes and all the kinds of things.
00:22:52
Speaker
but It gives me more time in the morning to be less stress and to focus on the baby and to get myself ready for work or whatever needs to be done. And we're kind of dividing and conquering and we're working more as a team. And so, yes, I still have parts of my perfectionism that, you know, probably need some work on and and that I feel like are beneficial, but it's it's helped The marriage is working, you know, to parent everybody and taking some of that mental load off of me and then really helpful. So I think sometimes it's just getting over that hurdle of the initial anxiety and the ick that comes with it and then seeing that it's okay. Kind of like what you said with the dog hair. It's kind of just doing it, that experiential piece and the exposure piece and then, oh, I can make it through. Like, you know, my house is going to have dog hair and my kids or might wear their clothes on backwards, but everybody's okay.
00:23:44
Speaker
You know, hearing you say that, um
00:23:49
Speaker
there's a part of me that's like, I think is as women, we look at our husbands who send kids with like mismatch socks or something like that. And there's this feeling of like, oh, why does't why didn't he notice that? Why doesn't he care? And I am thinking to myself, like, how wonderful would it be to not care. Yes, I guess bringing them up into like our where our bar is and our standard like what if I don't know there's a part of me that's just like how free would that be? Because I guarantee he wasn't worried about the rest of the day. I would guarantee when they came home, he was like, ah like, how awesome would that be if we could have that same approach to it to say but they had what they needed. So yep, it's fine. Yep.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah. so that'd be It would be great. It would be freeing, I think, i think for a lot of people. yeah um yeah my Yeah. My friends and I have sayings of like, how nice would it be to be a man and not have to like keep this in my brain all day? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Yeah. um Okay. So that was another kind of question that I was going to ask too, is that For a lot of women, I do think that asking for help is hard and that that can be part of the problem because we simultaneously know that the load is overwhelming to carry by ourselves, but we naturally have a hard time asking for help with it.
00:25:23
Speaker
um Partially because you know that if someone is offering to help that like you said they're not gonna do it necessarily your way so how do you and again probably I don't even know if perfectionism comes in with this one like I think a lot of times moms just have it in their mind that things need to be done in a certain way because again, you have all of the pieces juggling perfectly and so you have it in your mind the way that it needs to be
Sharing Family Tasks to Reduce Mental Load
00:25:49
Speaker
done. um But if we're talking about offloading some of this burden and you have a dad that is willing to help, how do you work around that maybe his way is not gonna be done the way that you want it done?
00:26:04
Speaker
and being able to Ask yourself this question but like is everything okay and everybody had what they need is just it's just done differently you know like how do you work with women on that. Yeah so i think looking at your own expectations and going okay what were to happen if you know.
00:26:23
Speaker
I have them even think about like what's the worst case scenario. like They go to school and they don't have their lunch or the grocery shopping doesn't get done with all the you know certain brands or or things. like What does that look like? Well, you just can't make dinner that night or does it mean that you know if someone in the house has a food allergy or you know there's different degrees with each family that yeah rank that importance or or you know, kind of how, how relaxed is your husband to like, well, he, you know, like my husband, he may not do it exactly the way I want to, but our kids I know will always have, you know, their basic needs met. And so, um,
00:27:04
Speaker
looking at that and kind of evaluating like everything in your mental load. So usually I tell people like you know write everything down. like see Get everything that's swirling in your brain, get it down and out of your head first and look at all of those things and see you know Where can you have some wiggle room on some of this and where might it be a little bit of perfectionism or micromanaging or just anxiety about those what ifs and and where can we let some of that go? um And starting with small things I think sometimes to like not saying well I'm gonna let my husband do all the grocery shopping from now on or I'm going to let him
00:27:42
Speaker
take care of the children, you know, for all these hours or, you know, whatever it may be. It's go okay. I'm going to start with one hour. I'm going to start with one grocery shop visit or whatever it may be to make it feel because it starts to feel overwhelming of like, you know, I have clients that come to me and they're like, I have all this going on. And, you know, they're already stressed out and overwhelmed. And now I'm asking them to do something really hard that that feels icky or produces more anxiety. And so starting small can make it feel more kind of digestible. Did I answer your question?
00:28:17
Speaker
Yes, because the answer is that there's no, like there's no good solution that no feel good solution to it, that it's going to be uncomfortable to start with. Yeah. Yeah. And it's part of the hard work, right? Like we, we know that we don't want to carry this burden by ourselves because that's overwhelming, but it's probably going to feel a little bit more uncomfortable for it to be out of your control before you can get used to it not being in your control and Use the word trust earlier, which I ah really appreciate because you are trusting that once I hand it off that it's gonna be ah Taken care of and I think that that's a huge piece of this that that women talk about a lot is that they still feel this um Responsibility to follow up That they'll task their husband with something and then they check in and say hey, did you remember to do this? So it
00:29:10
Speaker
Doesn't necessarily feel like it's off of your plate if you're feeling like you have to follow up and God forbid they forgot Because then that's like the most frustrating thing because then it's like you said you want to help and I'm trusting that you'll help and then And then you didn't like that's that feels like Betrayal is a really strong word, but it it does it feels like okay, you drop the ball. How can I count on you to be able to? Carry it for us Right, right. so Yeah. i And a lot of my clients too, they'll even say like, well, I'm not going to write them a list because that's more time and effort on my part. And I don't have any of that. It's easier for me just to go and do it. And so then they they end up just saying, well, everything's just easier and i' I'll just do it. And then that might even be something that they're saying to their spouse of like, well, I'll just do it because it's easier. You know, and then there's that fighting and and arguments that kind of pop up with that um and resentment, ah you know,
00:30:03
Speaker
after a while. Which now is probably a good time to mention um weaponized incompetence. Like I feel like we need to throw that in there too, right? Yes, yes. Do you have anything that you want to share on that? I didn't think to mention that and when we were kind of going over stuff before. um But it feels like it comes up with that like if spouses don't want to take on a responsibility. They know, I remember there was an episode, my my dad growing up loved to watch, everybody loves Raymond. And there was this one episode where Ray did something so horribly wrong that his wife was just like, the i'll I'll never ask you to do it again. And the joke was that he was just like, that's how I get out of stuff. is i And now we have a, now we have words for that. Now we call that weaponized incompetence, right? Yeah, yeah.
00:30:54
Speaker
I guess, I guess maybe even yeah, you're right. Like I didn't really ask a question there. um I guess my thoughts are like,
00:31:03
Speaker
If you have like passed on a task to someone and they do drop the ball, what's the difference in true weaponizing competence where the person is purposely ah um not doing what they need to do because they don't want to do it and they know that you'll then say, fine, I'll just do it myself versus maybe there is a little bit of grace period at first when this is, again, like a new skill that they're having to learn that um in their life they've never had to do before, especially not for a family with multiple people at this point. um I guess like, how do you manage those frustrations if there is a little bit of like a learning curve? to like climbing kind of Okay. you
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um So depending on your partner's history and what they were exposed to growing up, so if they witnessed their mom doing, you know, and and kind of paid attention to all those things mom did or or if they had a dad that was kind of more involved and and doing those things that they saw and can model that behavior more easily, then it might be easier to have a partner who's able to follow through in the way that you want to. Now, if they didn't witness those things, um it may be harder, but also thinking about kind of the biological aspects of like,
00:32:26
Speaker
being a mother and just kind of what that comes with and kind of knowing all the nitty gritty things versus men typically. And these are just, you know, generalizations. I don't want to be like unfair because I know this isn't everybody, but for sure you know, like you kind of mentioned before, being a little bit more kind of free and that like, Oh, all those little things don't matter as much or they're more okay with, with not all the little details being done. Um,
00:32:57
Speaker
It can be hard for them to see and to, I don't know if empathize is the right word, but to be congruent and with the the mom on what she feels like needs to be done because they know it not see that as important. and so If you have a partner, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say that's such a good point because I think it's also fair to mention that um when kids go to school in like a mix match outfit, people don't typically, ah like there's this feeling that people are going to say like, dang, where was mom this morning?
00:33:32
Speaker
Nobody typically looks at those things when a kid doesn't have their lunch and say, why didn't dad drop off the lunch? So when there is some sort of like perceived judgment, whether it's real or not, but when there is a perceived judgment that we're worried about, we think that it's going to be a reflection of us, not our husband.
00:33:48
Speaker
Right. Right. It defaults to that. Right. So one reason why they can be so aloof about it is because they don't carry that feeling of like, this is a reflection of me. Right. the same That doesn't even go through their head. I don't, I don't think, you know, where it is something that it's, you know, if it's not something we're consciously thinking about, it's subconsciously kind of just swirling around in there. So right yeah.
00:34:11
Speaker
But I like what you said about looking at your partner's pattern. like I would imagine that if it's true weaponized incompetence, this is not the first time and the first space that you're going to see it in. like I'm pretty sure that they're probably ah
00:34:27
Speaker
not meeting your needs in a lot of different areas of life, right? Like you can tell the difference between someone who um drops the ball and feels remorseful and wants to learn to do better and not cause you more stress versus someone who is just trying to pass it back to you. um Like I think you probably have a pretty good idea in your gut.
00:34:46
Speaker
which Yes. Yes. And I think you know you're the partners aren't going to be open to the discussion about how to help you kind of take some of that load off. Like they're not going to say, how can I help? Or make me i mean maybe they will, but I think there's going to be a tone under it. And like you said, it's going to be And that may be a common theme throughout other parts of the relationship as well. um But if they're actively asking, what can I do? Or they're even trying to, without ask, you know be involved in these things, um you're you're probably not gonna see that from someone that's trying to yeah weaponize it. So, um yeah. That leads me to another one of my questions. um
00:35:33
Speaker
How do you help women communicate to their spouse, assuming that you have someone who is a supportive partner? Because I will say this, like I think the average dad nowadays wants to be so much more involved and so much more helpful and and is willing to carry so much more of the load. like um I can hear stories about my grandfather who would get home from working his seven to five and he would get in the recliner with a beer and you didn't ask him anything else the rest of the day. you know um I think the average man is not that anymore. like Most men want to be more involved fathers and good partners to their wives. um so if you If we're talking about a couple like that,
00:36:17
Speaker
And a woman is trying to explain what the mental load is, everything that she carries and trying to communicate with him. Like, what are some tips for her getting the husband to understand? What is actually helpful? Because like you said before, coming to someone and say, if you'll give me a ah list of groceries, I'll go to the grocery store.
00:36:36
Speaker
seems help Seems like it would be helpful, but then you're asking me to go to the cabinet and see what we're low on and to actually make the list. And you know what I mean? Like it still is a lot of work to tell you how to help me. So how do you communicate that to someone and how do you determine like what would actually be helpful? Yeah, yeah.
00:36:57
Speaker
So going back to something I said before, like initially like writing down all the stuff that's in your head. like get Get the mental load out onto paper. See it in front of your face. See what everything is. And going and and picking you know a couple of things that you might want to present to your husband and say you know you want help with. I think initiating that communication starting off because we don't want our partner defensive and saying, you know, I appreciate everything you do kind of recognizing them for the stuff that they already do. Um, even if it doesn't feel like a lot and you're, you know, trying to hold back these, these feelings of resentment or whatever it may be, you know, extreme stress and, and kind of going, you know, I see what you're doing kind of validating, recognizing, pointing them out and then asking for help. And I think painting the picture initially. So,
00:37:51
Speaker
I would say, you know, tasks that are kind of more repetitive, like if you can do the laundry every Monday and the laundry is in these baskets where it's, you know, you're kind of painting the picture for the expectation. They don't have to guess. um They know every Monday they could set themselves reminders. They know it's going to be in this basket. They know it's dirty clothes.
00:38:15
Speaker
They know what the laundry detergent you want them to use. and like You could write that out, and but it fits an ongoing, consistent thing. I think that's easier for their partner to be open, willing, feel more confident about too. Because even like you know you're mentioned on the grocery store, it's checking the cabinet. it's writing down the list, but then also you send them out to the grocery store and they may be texting you going, is this what you wanted? Was it this one? And so now you're answering text messages and saying, no, it's on aisle seven, get the other thing that's in a blue bottle and it, you know, and then you're like, why did I do this? Um,
00:38:54
Speaker
But if you look from the other side of that too, they're really just trying to help and they want to bring home the right thing and they're they're not sure. And it's, you know, at least for for a lot of them, I feel like they're they're really trying. They're just, they want to make sure they're doing it right. And I think it also speaks to they trust in us because they know, we know all the things that keep the family running in a really successful way. And so in a way, it's kind of an indirect compliment. But yeah, so so finding those things and saying, hey, you know,
00:39:23
Speaker
I'm feeling really overwhelmed. Is there any way you could, you know, do the laundry on Monday? Or could you start with this? And I think even being vulnerable and communicating like, I'm going to have you do the laundry. But I may say some things. And it's a work in progress for me of letting this go. I like the like that the predictability of doing this. And so if I say these things,
00:39:44
Speaker
point them out to me, you know, I may not see, cause I think, you know, being a mom, we're an autopilot a lot because of that mental load. And so we're not always cognizant of every single thing that we say. And so giving our partner permission to like communicate back with us to say, Hey, what are you doing the laundry for? Or you said this to me and it felt really, you know, uncomfortable or whatever and opening those lines of communication and building that trust and that it will be done. yeah The communication is safe and open. um And then hopefully you can build on that. Like, hey, like I gave them the the laundry on Mondays, let me build on that and add something else. um and And going that route. You know, um as you're saying that, like that's a lot of, like the logistical, how do I, how do I enlist your help, right?
Shared Responsibilities in Household Tasks
00:40:43
Speaker
um But I've had this conversation and i'm I'm wondering if you have to on the word help.
00:40:51
Speaker
Because there's a ah lot of women that are, and again, this is usually when you're so overwhelmed that there's already some resentment that has built up, but there's this feeling of, this is not my responsibility that you're helping me with, because this is our household. um You know, like,
00:41:12
Speaker
technically they're not helping you run the house because it's their house too, you know, and so I'm even wondering like when you said to sit down and make this list of the mental load, like I think that there might be some value in doing that with your husband so that he can see, oh my gosh, this is how much she carries. And he can do it too, because like he might carry some of like um again like those traditional gender roles. like He might think more of the grass needs to be cut, or this needs to be repaired, things like that. um But he could actually see how many tabs you have open.
00:41:46
Speaker
and that this is what the family requires. um For, for you to say like, these are my responsibilities that I could use your help with, I feel like that's still creating this, I don't know, like it keeps the narrative in
00:42:02
Speaker
running the household is mom's job. And because he's a good willing partner, he can take some of that off of her when I don't know, like ah ah there's something in me that says it should be presented as, Hey, these are our responsibilities. How do you, how do you want to divide them? Yeah, because that helps to also give him ownership of he's not doing you a favor when he starts doing laundry on Monday. He's saying,
00:42:27
Speaker
That's a household chore that needs to be done. And this is the one that I'm willing to do because we're going to like divvy them up. I don't know. There's just something about that language that I feel is really important because it helps to enlist them to say, like this is not her job that I'm willing to help with. And so he can also... I think that one of the big things is like we want them to take ownership too.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yes. So I like ah want to hear them say, like no, laundry is my responsibility. And money doesn't work for me. but So you can count on it to be done on a Wednesday. I would be like, oh my gosh, yes. However you want to do it. I don't even want to have to tell you how to do it. And I realize that for some people, they're just not going to be there yet because they're not taking ownership of it. So you might have to, again, teach that skill of like this is how often it has to be done. So if you can get used to doing it on a weekly basis.
00:43:16
Speaker
But i I think like encouraging men to take ownership of these are all the things that need to be done in the house. You're not helping me. We're in this together. Yes. I love that. You have some of those conversations too about like the the resentment with saying like, I don't even like it to be called help. Right. Right. Yeah. yeah And just, I think there's resentment too. of Like I think a lot of men don't even realize is like,
00:43:44
Speaker
everything that's going on. Like either how much laundry is being done or like all the different things that it does take to run the household that the the woman just kind of jumps in and does like either because that was what was modeled for her or she saw her husband was not doing it and knew it needed to be done. And so it just kind of turns into this like default position. And yeah, I think having it on that piece of paper to see, okay, the differences and you know,
00:44:13
Speaker
how much there really is. And yeah, I mean, I think if the man could jump in and say, yeah, like, hey, Wednesdays work better for me, I'm gonna do that, just, you know, let's let's make this, you know, I'm gonna implement this from now on and this is this is what I'm gonna be in charge of and not, I'm helping you. I love i love that you brought that up. um Yeah, because I'm also thinking about, um
00:44:39
Speaker
I'm thinking about men and I don't want to like demonize them and say that they're not capable of running a household. you know like I would not want a husband to listen to this episode and feel like we're just like ganging up on them and saying they don't do anything. like i think Again, like I think the average husband wants to be really helpful um and they want to be an active partner in the family.
00:45:01
Speaker
um And so like encouraging and empowering him to say don't wait to be told what to do like jump in when you know that things are done routinely jump in and say hey I want to I want to take this over this is something that I think that I could handle with my you know workload and everything else um can we talk about like is there anything that that I need to know before I take this on you know yes and
00:45:28
Speaker
there, there is nothing that would like strengthen a marriage more. Yeah.
Adapting Household Roles with Family Changes
00:45:32
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like your wife, we love you so much and be so happy. Like that is going to be ah such a wonderful thing for you to give her, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think, and I will, I'll speak on behalf of them for a second. Cause I feel like the ones that I've talked to a lot of times they,
00:45:50
Speaker
They don't speak up because they're not sure and instead of just like talking and asking and you know It's almost like the the confidence isn't there of like right I don't want to offend her by just jumping in to do that and I think if you know it's like Open those doors to communication and jump in and do that and you'll probably be surprised at the reaction It's probably gonna be actually the opposite of what you're expecting um Because yeah, it's it's It's hard. It's hard to like break that communication, have that, especially when you're stressed and if there is feelings of resentment on either side. um It's hard. It's hard. it's you know and I always tell people like if you know you're working with your one-on-one therapist and you know
00:46:33
Speaker
there needs to be more of like in relation to the couple or your partner, like get into couples therapy. It doesn't mean your marriage is like going down the tubes. It's like, if you need a little bit of help with that communication piece, you can go for a handful of times and and establish that rapport and get into to those things and and do like kind of a checkup on the marriage to to strengthen all that. The other thing I do, like if I'm working with moms who are pregnant or trying to get pregnant,
00:47:00
Speaker
I encourage those conversations before baby even gets there and kind of like the projected, like, what do we think it's going to take? You know, if this is their first baby, you know, what is it going to take when baby gets here? What are the extra things that we're going to add on and how are we going to kind of divide and conquer and split this up so that one person isn't feeling just completely burdened with things?
00:47:23
Speaker
Um, you know, and ah other people that, you know, they have multiple children or their children are older. Like it's never too late to go back and kind of reassess the way you've been running the household and, and kind of divvying things back up and, and kind of lightening the load on whoever it is that that's carrying that. Um, and it, and it's different for every household.
00:47:47
Speaker
That's such a good point because I think that um what worked when the kids were little might not work when they're pre-teens. And so if for so many different reasons, you know, um like I'm just thinking about like maybe mom did carry more of the load when the kids were little and for whatever reason, like she's perimenopausal or she's um in a new role at work that's requiring so much more of her, um like for a million different reasons. Like just because it's historically worked, it doesn't mean that it's not okay at any point in the ah family ah to reevaluate how things are done. And especially I think the longer it goes on, like the longer you carry it, the more it's just that that's what the norm is. It might even be harder to have some of these conversations if
00:48:37
Speaker
your kids are teenagers, and it's been done this way for a really long time. um But that, but you're right, it doesn't mean that the marriage is suffering or in trouble just because you're having to have some of these conversations about like, Yeah, I know I've always done this, but I i really like this is not working. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's trial and error of like, even If you do make some changes and you're like, oh, this isn't working for whatever reason, readjusting to that. And, and, you know, as your children get older and like you said, are there in different phases of life and it might bring up.
00:49:10
Speaker
things for for you and your partner either that touch on stuff from your childhood or yeah um just personalities of the children that you'll have to adjust according to that too. You might have a child that needs more attention or you know has medical needs or things that require more time and energy you know even from a pregnancy where you know I talk to couples a lot you know as far as like, okay,
00:49:36
Speaker
not only the physical load of of carrying a child, but the emotional and mental piece that that the partner doesn't see, that that's time and and energy and and things that take from you when, you know, if you're already working or and things like that, like it exhausts you and it takes from from your cup and trying to adjust and and maybe if the energy is not there, but we have more energy postpartum,
00:50:05
Speaker
we take away some stuff in pregnancy, but we take it back when we're postpartum and kind of adjust there. So it's a constant, I think moving game. It's never like, I don't want people to think that either. It's like, Oh, once you hand over the laundry on Mondays where you hand over the grocery list, like it has to stay like that. Like you said, it's, it's, we need to reassess on, you know, a frequent basis and make sure it's working for everybody. And, and ultimately keeping that line of communication open.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I mean, I feel like as we wrap up, this has been such a good conversation. I feel like it's gonna land for so many, so many people. I think that if I had any like parting words, it would be what you said earlier for like moms to have so much compassion for themselves. And I know that that is sometimes um hard to do and we don't make a lot of time for it.
00:50:57
Speaker
But when we really start to realize, ah especially like doing that activity of writing down everything that you carry in a day, like it's just so much. So if you can pause and just say like the reason why you're feeling overwhelmed and the reason why and this feels like impossible is because it is. Like what we're asking ourselves to do um really, really is impossible. And if you can just hold space for some compassion for yourself, that's a always a good place to start.
00:51:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah, definitely. What about you? What would you, if you had any last words for any moms out there, any tips or thoughts?
Self-Compassion for Mothers
00:51:35
Speaker
I would say being mindful of the time spent comparing on social media or to even people in your community and really taking a step back and Taking a step back and realizing that your family is just as unique as everybody else's and thinking also about like what you want at the end of the day. So is it you want a clean, sparkly, picture perfect house? Do you want a happy family where everyone's laughing and they have time to relax and to just be?
00:52:13
Speaker
And I also would encourage moms to not feel like they have to continue to fill traditional roles or to fill what they think their moms or their grandmothers want or expect them to be because they're their own person. We're in a different world than when they were raising kids and things are very different and things are hard. And if they don't want to be certain parts of like how their mom or their grandmother was or have those expectations. They don't have to have those and they can still be okay and a really good mom. ah Oh my gosh. ah Say that louder for the people in the back.
00:52:59
Speaker
that you Which again, that's so much easier said than done to like release those expectations because they're they are ingrained in us, right? But like making the decision of I have different things on my plate than my grandmother did. So I'm going to have different expectations for myself. But at the end of the day, being able to say I am still a good enough mom. um I'm still a great mom.
00:53:24
Speaker
my kids are loved, they're cared for. um This is good. Yeah. Yeah. It can be hard to say with all those little voices yeah in the back of your head and things that, like you said, are ingrained from our childhood as women, and like in society and everything. And it just is, but no, no, you're not okay. And you have to say, no, I am okay. yeah My kids are happy and they're healthy and they're fed and you know, it's okay. Yeah. um Yeah. Yeah. And chicken nuggets for dinner is beautiful. It is totally fine. And usually that's when the kids eat the best, right? Like its like when you make this super healthy, like organic meal, it's the chicken nuggets and french fries and yeah, hot dogs.
00:54:12
Speaker
Absolutely. I love that we're so we're leaving on chicken nuggets and hot dogs. That's so awesome. Stephanie, thank you so much for joining me again today. This was just such such a good reminder of how we how hard we can be on ourselves and how much we're all carrying. But I feel like the more and more that we can normalize these conversations of this is a struggle that most moms have and that we're in this together and that nobody actually is living this perfectionist lifestyle that we're chasing.
00:54:40
Speaker
We can just all take a deep breath together. Yes. Thank you for having me to talk about it. I think the more we talk about it as moms and we put it out there and we say what reality is, it's that's helpful. So with your mom friends, with you know coworkers, things like that, I think having these authentic conversations is we just need to keep going with it. And maybe one day things will change a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely. um Anybody that looking to get in touch with Stephanie, I will make sure that her contact information is in the show notes so that you can reach out to her. um And I just appreciate this so much and hope everyone has a good week and we will talk to you next time.
00:55:23
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.