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Deconstructing Evangelicalism & Mental Health
44 Plays5 days ago
In this week's episode, Julie sits down with Liz Mall, host of the podcast Deconstructing the Myth, to discuss how religious trauma, church hurt, and deconstructing evangelicalism impacts mental health. We explore how deeply ingrained teachings can shape identity, self-worth, and emotional well-being, and discuss the challenges and breakthroughs people experience as they begin to question and redefine their faith.
Liz also shares strategies for protecting your peace, healing, and finding hope along the way.
About today's guest:
Liz is the host of Deconstructing the Myth, and holds a M.A. in Christian Apologetics.
Connect with Liz:
Instagram: @deconstructingthemyth
Support DTM's work!
Patreon- Patreon.com/deconstructingthemythPatreon-Patreon.com/deconstructingthemyth
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Season Three and Guest Liz Mall
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back to Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. Season three is all about navigating life's challenges and finding balance. We're continuing the conversations around mental health and I'm once again joined by expert guests who share their stories and tips and hopes to inspire you on your journey of healing and growth.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Outside of Session. I have to say that today's episode is one of the ones that I have been most excited about recording because I'm so excited about today's guest. I had the pleasure of sitting down and talking with Liz Mall, who is the creator of her own podcast called Deconstructing the Myth, which is all about exploring why those who grew up in the evangelical church are now leaving it behind.
Exploring Religious Trauma and Mental Health
00:01:04
Speaker
In today's episode, Liz and I explore different aspects of religious trauma, church hurt, and deconstruction, and specifically how all of these things can have an impact on someone's mental health. Liz has such a unique perspective as someone who has shared openly her own story of deconstruction, but she also comes with a background background of having a master's in Christian apologetics.
00:01:27
Speaker
As we dive into today's episode, I do want to point out that both Liz and I feel very strongly that our goal is not to influence anyone's outcomes or influence where they land up with their faith, but rather to encourage safe spaces to be able to explore the big questions of life while also having supportive communities along the way.
Liz Mall's Journey in Christian Apologetics and Deconstruction
00:01:52
Speaker
Liz, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Julie. I'm so excited you're having me on your show. It's, you know, I have to say, um, we're going to talk about so many different things, especially about your podcast, but you have, it's really weird interviewing another podcaster. yeah
00:02:11
Speaker
I like it because I feel like you're going to bring a different energy. I love it. Um, but your podcast deconstructing the myth is my favorite podcast. Oh, wow. Better than my own. that is Wow, that is a compliment. I'm telling you like I have just like devoured your episodes. And I feel like I have learned so much. You've brought so many like fascinating guests and topics on your show. And it's been so helpful to me, like getting me thinking in different directions. And there have been times where you have put things into words where I'm like,
00:02:47
Speaker
Oh my gosh, Liz said that. Like that feels like it came out of my brain, but she said it so much better than I ever could have. Oh wow. Now I'm like, Julie, I need to, what is, now I'm like, I need you on my show. I'm like, I don't actually know your story. But so maybe if I do it in the interview season, we'll look at the haja table's terms. So thank you for saying that though. That means a lot. Well, and one of the reasons why, um, I wanted to especially have you on the show and I was kind of stating this a second ago before we hit record is that,
00:03:16
Speaker
I'm a therapist in the Atlanta area. Um, so I'm in the Bible belt. And so the majority of my clients that come in are not seeking me out because they are having, like they're going through anything with religious trauma necessarily. But almost all of my clients have some sort of relationship with the church in their life, whether they grew up really evangelical and like fully submerged into the the life.
00:03:40
Speaker
Or they just remember like, yeah, I remember going to church with my grandparents growing up. Like most people have some relationship with Christianity. And I think that that's just like the nature of where I live. Um, but over the past couple of years, I feel like more and more women, especially cause that's what I work with mostly have started bringing this up in therapy. So it's not necessarily they're sticking me out for therapy for this, but it's just naturally coming up.
00:04:06
Speaker
um And there is just a lot of pain with this. And so I know on your podcast, like you talk a ton about um theology because that's your more of your background, right? Yes, yes. um But I wanted to get a conversation with you today going just about how this is impacting people's mental health.
The Deconstruction Movement's Impact on Church and Individuals
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's so important. It's so important to talk about because that's that has been such a surprise for me the avenue I entered deconstruction in because I came sort of from the intellectual side, um questioning the theological claims of the religion.
00:04:46
Speaker
And after having this podcast, I was startled at the amount of pain that exists in this realm. And it's not even just people in deconstruction. It's those who criticize those in deconstruction. It's the you know it's people who are um on the outside looking into the phenomenon as well, I guess maybe just neutrally, but being afraid of what's happening with the church. There's so much pain surrounding the topic.
00:05:13
Speaker
But there's also so much of beauty, so it's a very interesting situation going on in in church history right now, really, from a Christian standpoint. Yeah, definitely. um So for those who don't know anything about your background, I think it's so interesting how you kind of landed here. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that, about your education? and How your podcast? Sure. It's an interesting um road, I think. I have been very interested, really from what I think is religious drama now looking back, but interested in in religion and Christianity from a young age, interested in the big existential questions from a very young age.
00:05:51
Speaker
I mean, always had doubt, always had doubt from very young childhood, which mixed terribly with fear of hell and what if I'm wrong and, you know, from a very young age. But to try and keep this short, um I ended up giving my life to Christ when I was around seven maybe. um And still had a lot of doubts, had a very turbulent sort of spiritual existence. um But when I got to college and pursued music ministry, I stumbled into this little nerdy club called the apologetics club, which I thought was the coolest thing I had ever
00:06:33
Speaker
Scene because there was one professor who sat there while we just pelted him with our hardest questions And he had an answer and I couldn't believe that someone had a logical coherent answer for these things I thought you really just had to take online faith and I remember thinking if I ever go into higher education beyond my bachelor's degree It's going to be about apologetics. The world where will hear this message. They will have to give their lives to Christ. Everyone will be better for it. You know, it was this ah lofty ideal and later in life I got to do that in the sense of going and pursuing my master's degree in the very niche department of Christian apologetics. And it was beautiful and it was also deeply
00:07:17
Speaker
challenging for me, because when I um was doing this degree, it was during COVID. um I was older, so I was in my late 20s when I started, went slowly through it, um and really started to realize while there was an answer, yes, presented for any of my hardest, ah my inner skeptics, I should say, hardest questions about Christianity.
00:07:44
Speaker
I did not find every answer that was given satisfactory or better than the opposing side. And so I was really kind of thrust into this existential religious crisis of faith, right? Like, is everything I've believed a lie? I don't know what's real, what's not. And I was very frustrated because the particular institution I was in at the time, I don't know if they would actually say this but there were a couple professors that I really got the impression from to question there what would potentially you know put you at risk as far as the program went and that's the impression I got now granted stuff gets lost in translation when you're doing online classes and looking you know there's I don't know for sure but I felt fearful I also felt deeply concerned because my whole reason for being there
00:08:30
Speaker
had been a pursuit of truth and I thought as much as I don't want to upset people I'm still here for truth and so what you know it put me in this weird spot of I can't deny these convictions and I really considered not finishing that degree but after a lot of Thought and prayer truly I thought you know I I've put in the work I think I'm still going to finish it and so for my last few credits I got permission to do an independent study class where I did a podcast where I started this podcast called deconstructing the myth and I think the professor overseen it thought oh yeah this is gonna be the opportunity that she's going to witness all these people and because you know i'm i'm this apologetic student um but really my intent and how and how that first season ended up was being inviting people on who had left the evangelical church and some remain christian and some did not but my point was what is your story and why did you get
00:09:27
Speaker
where you are today. And so I told some of them, you know, hey, I'm doing this degree, I'm going to give you a little pushback here. But you can always have the last word. You know, it wasn't, I don't want to they make you feel that I'm trying to convince you otherwise. So it was an interesting kind of dynamic that first season at a few points.
00:09:45
Speaker
But I really did this in part for my own questions, to hear another viewpoint, um but also for community. I felt so isolated in my loneliness and in my own questioning. And it's such a weird feeling to be doing this at a higher education level.
00:10:04
Speaker
and to feel that isolation too. I'm sure, I mean, wherever you feel isolated in the process, it's hard, but that was bizarre because so so many people expected a lot of me concerning faith and, you know, a career in ministry, etc. And so the podcast, I'm so fortunate to have found those conversations and to keep finding them because community and the lack of community is probably the number one um painful byproduct of this process that I hear about um most frequently, I would say. That's so interesting. That's so interesting, because now we're getting into the mental health piece of it already. Yeah, yeah. OK, so one of the first things you experienced was just isolation of loneliness, like a disconnect from community. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also imagine that, like,
00:10:59
Speaker
your cohort being there with you, some of them are probably feeling white like better about their views. right like they're like They're getting the answers that they need and it sits well and it feels like it's getting um like more concrete for them.
00:11:18
Speaker
while it's having the opposite effect for you? You know, it was an interesting thing because I think because I wrestled with doubt from truly such a young age, basically the whole time. One of my friends said, I think half of your brain is atheist and half is Christian. I don't know if there's any sign to that, but I was like, I wouldn't be surprised to find out something like that because the atheist arguments, the best I've heard, well, I've i've met atheists now with better ones, I will say. but up to up until my podcast I was like the strongest ones I heard were in my own head you know seeing that skeptic side so so to be in class and to say them out loud more than once and I shouldn't say straight out loud because here's something for me that I've also found is very helpful for my personality it was all these written forums right there was that extra screen of writing which my instagram page also has and there's something about that that has made navigating this tremendously easier for me personally
00:12:17
Speaker
um and to not see the facial reaction, right? There's something about that's helpful, but to really be able to just sit with these arguments um in an intellectual setting and parse them out and write something and delete
Understanding Deconstruction: Investigation vs. Destruction
00:12:30
Speaker
it, right? So I would do that and I would post these and I would often say, you know, what if an atheist said this or what if a critic said this? right what saying I'm thinking this. And I had occasionally good, you know, the professor or someone else would give a good response, but more than once,
00:12:44
Speaker
They wouldn't. I remember being very disappointed when I um gave an argument against the moral the Christian moral apologetic argument, which is a whole thing. And I really wanted i wanted so badly for the professor to come on and say, okay, here's how I would answer that atheist. And instead he said, wow, you've really detailed the atheist position well, and that was it. And I was like, what? There's nothing. And you know, who knows? Maybe he was strapped for time or what, but it was, it was frustrating for me. But as far as the other students, there was, I would, I would receive feedback from them, like, thank you for saying this. You know, I kind of wondered that, or there was some of that, but I don't know that I ever saw someone
00:13:26
Speaker
um go beyond what I did. And granted these were small class sizes and things like that. I'm not saying I was the only brave one there. But I think there was definitely a reservation. So it's hard for me to know what they felt, if they felt satisfied with the arguments or not. um But I do know for me, getting that lack of response and then feeling we're either not brave enough or not being critical enough to go there was very lonely and frustrating and kind of scary concerning, you know, what will people do if they find out some of these positions aren't just the atheist, that I'm this hypothetical atheist, like I'm questioning this, you know, it was an interesting and difficult time for sure.
00:14:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that is certainly one of the things that leads to loneliness is that when you're having these really big questions and it does, it feels like an existential crisis. um And it's a matter of like, I want to be able to talk to somebody about this, but who is safe? Where is it safe for me to go and have these where I'm not going to be met with either, um, criticism or just a blanket, like, no, you can't be questioning these things. I think that's what a lot of people experience. And so I think part of it's isolating in,
00:14:47
Speaker
There probably are a lot of people asking these questions, but we don't know who each other are. Yes, yes, yes. And safety, man, that is the name of the game, I think, on every level possible. You know, are you safe with God?
00:15:04
Speaker
Are you safe with God? That's a big question. Like, is God going to send me for to hell for getting some things wrong when I'm desperately trying not to, you know? Or are you safe with other Christian friends? How are they going to view you? I mean, every step of the way, are you safe with yourself? So many of us don't really know ourselves because we haven't developed some parts of ourselves. I have found this to be true. I have used religion in a way to ah problem-solving my life um that served a purpose that when that religion is changed or parts of it are not even present anymore, then you're like, what who am I? And what do I do with my own thoughts, feelings, desires? So you're right. I think safety is really a big issue um on a lot of levels when people have deconstruction experiences. You know, at this point, um
00:15:56
Speaker
I want to back up just a minute because at at this point, as far as you've gone into this and I've seen even on like your Instagram page and stuff like that, like ah I feel like I've seen you evolve too. um like At this point, how would you even define deconstruction?
00:16:12
Speaker
Yes, how do we define deconstruction? That is a good question because it's really a hard term to put into words that everyone accepts, I have found. i agree um And there's there's Christians, I think in particular, have a very negative connotation sometimes tied to it. But to begin with, there's a philosophy of deconstruction by Jacques Derrida I believe is how you pronounce it and his philosophy had to do with text actually and how text and the meaning of words evolves over time and changes meaning and how do we know we are reading um what is meant by the words and it was it was really about literature but there are some ideas
00:17:00
Speaker
From that, that do play into this modern movement or phenomenon we're seeing that people are referring to as deconstruction. I personally don't think um the connection is as direct as Christians in particular like to say it is because people will look at his philosophy and say it's full of postmodernism, it's dangerous from the outset,
00:17:22
Speaker
And while I challenge that postmodernism is as dangerous as the church often makes it seem, that's a story for another day. um When I came across the word deconstruction, I had none of that background. I just was in my master's degree, right, struggled with my faith, and I read a quote set talking, someone was talking about,
00:17:40
Speaker
The deconstruction of my faith and I just thought that word that word describes what I am going through to a tee I had no background I didn't know anything about the deconstruction space at all at this point and I realized the reason is because the word deconstruct to take apart and investigate spoke strongly to me and so that is typically the definition I use to take apart and investigate and A lot of people, I think, partly because the word sounds like destruction, I think sometimes they think that is the intent and the meaning to destruct your faith, destroy it. And I thought, I'm not sure what that that um phenomenon is called in grammar, like alliteration. no When the words sound alike,
00:18:26
Speaker
um And I think that's an unfortunate coincidence because they're not necessarily the same thing. I think a lot of times on the internet you hear the loudest voices in the deconstruction space are those who have left entirely. But that's not the full picture at all. I get so many people on my page who are using the term really to mean there are parts of my faith I'm concerned about and I want to look into and I don't feel safe to do that in my own spiritual communities right now. But I have questions, can you help me find some answers? I just want to know what's true about God and reality and I just want to know if some of these things are actually good. um And so, sorry this is so long winded.
00:19:11
Speaker
But I think in its basic form, how I use the term and how many people use the term is to take apart and investigate the parts. And then after that, you may build them back together. um You may land in the same place, or you may never build them back together. But the process itself is neutral and doesn't say anything about the outcome. Yeah, and I think one of the reasons why I wanted to specify that is because um
00:19:42
Speaker
There is kind of this voice out there that's saying that people who are, and and I've seen this in several different places, but that people who are deconstructing are just doing it because they they just want to be able to go out and sin. And then when they want to justify um their rebellion. And it's because their faith was never strong enough in the first place. um And that's so far from the truth because every single person, myself, everyone that I've seen online, everyone that I have seen in my office, no one is excited about this. It is so and incredibly painful that people would not sign up for this if they if they didn't have to. Like I think that it would have been so much easier for us to just to continue to hold on to what we were told and not, it's
00:20:33
Speaker
In my opinion, it's easier to not ask these questions. Um, and so I'm not saying that people on the other side don't make different choices for their lives. So I can see how some people might look at it as that, but that was never the purpose of it. This is an incredibly painful process that people go through and there's so much grief, so much grief with it. Um, and you're right. Like we were saying this before we started recording, like,
00:20:58
Speaker
There is no set goal with deconstruction, and it's not about where you land up. It really is about the process that you go through. And so plenty of people will continue in their faith. Some people feel stronger in their faith after they deconstruct. um Some people leave it all together. you know And it's not so much about where you land. It's a it's about what you learn in the process. well Yeah, I think so. I think so. and Yeah, it it really just frustrates me how it's being taught to people. I've seen it over and over in churches as something to look out for, the work of the devil, right? And I remember very early on, before I started hearing this widespread, I was actually speaking at a women's, a small women's Bible study,
00:21:52
Speaker
Um, of evangelical women, I guess it wasn't a Bible study. There was about 30 people there and I gave a presentation on deconstruction and a bunch of them at the end, they're like, well, well, I've deconstructed, I'm in deconstruction. And I remember thinking, hmm.
00:22:03
Speaker
I don't i don't know you know because I told them, I said, I think pretty soon this is going to start being a dirty word in the church. I said, and I just want you to know it's not. I'm getting to you first and I just want you to know this is what is happening. I've done it and now I've interviewed, at that point it had just been season one, but I've interviewed people.
00:22:25
Speaker
And I want you to know this is about trying to find truth. And so don't just, don't just label, don't just assume all those things people say, you just want to sin. Who hurt you? I'll tell you this week, this week on my page, someone wrote on one of my posts, who hurt you?
00:22:42
Speaker
And I said, nobody. And then they asked me this big, you know, teleological argument, which I did have some responses for. But but they anyway, and then someone else came on and they said, no, you were hurt. And I was like, I said, why is this so hard to think someone could be doing this without being hurt by the church? That certainly is a reason people deconstruct and an important one that deserves, in my opinion, deconstruction.
00:23:07
Speaker
But why do we assume, if you have a mature faith, you're not going to investigate it? I actually would assume the opposite, I think. you know If you take this seriously, I think you'll see people doing this. In fact, when people say the thing you talked about, you just wanted to sin.
00:23:23
Speaker
it is much easier to just fade out just fade away than to do this process to do this work of searching of talking through things and if you're brave enough to say it publicly to get flack because you absolutely in my from what I've seen Flack just follows if the, you know, it follows the ones who say they're doing it. Why would you do that if you just want to sin? That's, it's, the it's not the easy road, you know? Um, and anyway, all of those arguments are so frustrating to me. These character attacks instead of just merely engaging with the issues people raise. Yeah. And I've noticed on your page a lot lately, you're, you're just driving it back to truth, to finding truth.
00:24:09
Speaker
um And if if that's what's at the heart of this, then why would this ever be a problem? And that that just really like boggles my mind that people would have such opposition to someone trying to find truth.
00:24:25
Speaker
I agree. I think it's i think it's strange. um ah But I've realized um it is because we are so unaware, all of us, I think, who have experienced religion, maybe not all, but most of us are so unaware of the fact that it is so much more than truth if we take it seriously. It does become part of your identity, your coping strategy for life, your stability, your inner stability, um your way of functioning.
00:24:55
Speaker
And so when we don't realize that, questions threaten something that I don't think we're conscious of. And I think deconstruction is terrifying. And I i was surprised to find this because I've always sort of been in a state of deconstruction since childhood in one way or another.
00:25:15
Speaker
But even me, when I've had to finally wrestle with the ultimate question, do I believe there is a God at all? and you know Back and forth with that. um Realizing so much of my safety, like we talked about in this world, in my own body, in my um little story of life that I've created about myself, so much of that hinges on my answers to this. and and that makes the questions threatening. But the truth is not threatened. The truth about God exists, whether God's real or not, that exists, you know, irrelevant of our thoughts on it. um Anyway, so it is a strange phenomenon, I think, that people get so threatened by it. Yeah, and and bringing this back to how it impacts our mental health, because you're talking to you about a lot of fear.
00:26:04
Speaker
and our our safety being challenged when we ask some of these questions.
Deconstruction's Effect on Mental Health and Practices for Coping
00:26:08
Speaker
um It reminds me a lot of Pete N's work, especially around certainty and how that's that's kind of the opposite of faith is certainty. And so when we have these teachings and these rules and these um like ideas that we cling to, if we're so certain about them, then do we really have to have faith in them?
00:26:31
Speaker
If we've never questioned them, like is that true faith? And I think that that's where a lot of people get their sense of safety from is that they feel very certain about things that they've never questioned. And so when you start to ask these questions and that certainty all of a sudden is very shaky, you're right. It's, it's terrifying because you start to realize that if you pull the thread and you ask one question, that it's really hard to not question everything. Yeah.
00:26:59
Speaker
And I think that that's been a big part of my personal experience is mine started out with a lot of deconstructing the idea of hell, eternal conscious torment, um which your episodes on that, by the way, were phenomenal. And they were so helpful as I was going through that. But then if you start to question that, you can't help but to question so many other things because so much of, I think, especially um, what evangelical Christianity is today is built on the idea of hell. Like there has to be a hell for it to work in so many ways. Um, and so it does, it becomes more and more scary because it's just like, well, if I let go of this, how can I hold on to some other pieces that I really want to be able to? And so you start to naturally just like question everything. And that's where I think the word deconstruction really hits home for me is because
00:27:49
Speaker
it does, it starts to feel like it's toppling on top of you at some point, I think. um And I've seen that with a lot of my clients too, is it? It just feels overwhelming. And so can you speak a little bit about how you have, I don't know, just like even manage your mental health through this process. um And you, you definitely like in particular, but also the people that you've worked with because I know you're getting Tons of people in your DMs and your hearing stories all the time and people that have come on your podcast, like what are you seeing people say was helpful to them during the process?
00:28:23
Speaker
That's a very loaded question. Yeah, no. there's It's a really good question, because it is a question everyone asks when they're in the thick of it. How do I survive it? yeah That's a question. And you know especially, and it's funny, because there are some people who I think go through it more unscathed than I might expect. But I do think that is a lot to do with personality.
00:28:51
Speaker
and my personality. had a huge amount of trouble with this. I'm i'm not gonna lie, early on, I was like, well, as a child, I thought, if there is no God, I don't think life is worth living. That is how big this was for me as a kid. And I didn't have what I considered a very traumatizing life, but now looking back, you talked about the hell piece. Now looking back, I give myself grace there because I think about all the horror going on in the world today and how kids in Gaza especially are are worried, will I,
00:29:24
Speaker
truly die tomorrow with my family. And it breaks my heart. And I think even if nothing physically happened to them, if they emerged unscathed, we would expect them to have trauma. Right. And it occurred to me, I spent a lot of my childhood terrified of that, but not just one incident of that of eternal eternity of that.
00:29:45
Speaker
And so how would I not expect myself to have these really dark thoughts, even though on the outside people would say nothing bad happened to you as a child? you know I think for a lot of us, just to start with, to cope with it, to work through it, is to really look at ourselves gracefully.
00:30:03
Speaker
And that is really hard when you've been taught that you are completely sinful, utterly depraved, disgusting. And the fact is, and I could argue this theologically if we needed to, I personally have rejected that and reframed it as, no, we're fundamentally good.
00:30:18
Speaker
We're fundamentally good, and that changes a lot. it That changes a lot of how you say, okay, so if I have this fear, if I have this aversion to this thing I've been taught about God, instead of having the narrative, well, it's because I live in rebellion. It's because I'm just opposed to God. It turns it to say, okay, what is the good nature in me trying to tell me here?
00:30:42
Speaker
What is, you know, and and the thing about that is it doesn't mean that your fear is based in reality or that you're having all the right facts, all these, you know, that your negative emotions are speaking the full story. But you start to have a little bit of trust in the part of you that under evangelicalism, at least for me, I was always trying to shut off, always trying to push down. And of course, the more you pushed it down, the more it comes up. right And once you're just curious about it and able to engage with these parts that question, that are cynical, that are frustrated when there's curiosity and openness, often I think you start to see, well, no, they have some good reasons that they're like this, these parts of us, this this fear and this skepticism. And and the hell piece is probably the one thing, if if evangelicals, if I could get, and not even just evangelicals, Christians in general,
00:31:35
Speaker
deconstructing hell changes a lot because because if you believe even if you just believe another narrative about hell which i think there is a lot of evidence for other narratives within the christian framework then eternal conscious torment. If we drop that one, which in many ways is a cultural phenomenon, not even biblical, that's our intention for another day, but if you drop that, suddenly you realize, oh, I can i can breathe.
00:32:06
Speaker
Like, I can give myself space to think about this. There's not this cosmic urgency, cosmic threat, rush, rush, rush. I can give myself space, take my time. And so that is a big thing that I think needs deconstructed is the idea of help, at least for me. Because once that piece is in place, that is one of the fundamental safety pieces, I think, for a lot of us who really internalized the doctrines. I also want to put a little caveat in there because I do think there's often two roads.
00:32:36
Speaker
not Not always, often there's a blend, but it seems like people either come to deconstruction primarily from kind of the intellectual avenue or from the social avenue of truly being harmed or having church trauma or seeing discrimination. And sometimes that avenue doesn't need the hell piece in quite the same way, but I think it still needs to deconstruct the judgment piece.
00:32:58
Speaker
which does tie into hell. yeah And once once those, and you can still, I mean, you can still hold on to inerrancy, all these big doctrines, you know, all the things and have different views on hell. And I think they are warranted. It's not just a, I hope it's true. I want this to be true. So I'm going to believe it. I think there's actually, I think it is less likely that eternal conscious torment exists. I think it's extremely unlikely, even from a Christian standpoint. And so that has been a huge piece, but it takes time.
00:33:27
Speaker
and even if you have that anxiety can still pop up right over health in particular and so managing the the issues for your mental and emotional health is really i think an ongoing process for a lot of people so there are different things that help everyone One thing I recommend, and it's easier said than done, but if you find yourself um really kind of plagued by constant thoughts of deconstruction, constant fear, constant worry, it helped me for a while to say, okay, I am setting aside a time in my day to think about it. yeah
00:34:06
Speaker
And the thing that was so helpful about that is I think there's something in us that starts to kind of trust us and say, okay, you're not just going to ignore me. You know, if I think about it before 9am, I will think about it. I'll let myself feel all the feelings, all the fear. I won't fight them. I'll let them come, right?
00:34:22
Speaker
But then after nine, I'll try and just like focus on something else, go do something else, or or soothe them, or meditate, or whatever. I will not just um spend time in them without action. right But if you know you're going to have that time each day, I think there's a part of us that says, OK, I can relax. We don't have to think about this 24-7. So creating that intentional inner space for it, I think, is really helpful.
00:34:50
Speaker
Um, such good compartmentalization to be able to say that this doesn't have to take over my entire day. Um, and when it's looming and it's just ruminating all day long, we're also not being very proactive with like thinking it through in a, in a productive way. But when we give ourselves a specific time to say, this is what I'm actually going to focus on it, it becomes a lot more productive.
00:35:14
Speaker
And you're right, it helps to get rid of the background noise that we carry the rest of the day. If we know that we're going to have like this dedicated time to and and that goes for deconstruction or anything else. Like I i talk about that a lot in my practice of saying like, if you if you will give yourself time to look at your emotions, your emotions won't just like plague you all day, they won't just be looming all day.
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's good. That's so good. I have not actually done it until deconstruction for my other emotions. And I've had to because other emotions flare up like crazy during deconstruction too. So that's, I do think that's a a powerful thing, but sometimes pretty hard to achieve. So I do, I do encourage people often, please find a therapist like someone and interview your therapist, but because I've had some people have some bad experiences, but to find someone actually trained yeah um to help with these goals. I think I waited too long to do that. And actually the therapist I'm seeing now we're not even going through my religious trauma because
00:36:13
Speaker
There's just so much else in my life which ironically yeah ties to it now that I look back, right? But just interpersonal relationships and everything like that. um But I do wish, that's one thing I wish I had started sooner in this process. But for me, and I think it might be, um what's the word, avoidant personalities maybe? For me, when when I started really fearing these things during my master's, I didn't want to talk to anyone. I just wanted i just want to be alone. And it was really hard to even tell my husband or you know to tell people, much less reach out to a therapist. But I think getting a professional involved, the right professional, right really expedites the process. So that's another thing I would say has helped my mental health, many people's mental health.
00:36:57
Speaker
um You know, I can tell, I think I saw this on your Instagram, but you have been reading No Bad Parts. Yeah. um I can tell you were talking in parts language for sure. And I have done several episodes in season two. um I think in season one of my podcast too, I talked a lot about um internal family systems is my favorite kind of therapy that I do with clients.
00:37:21
Speaker
And so everybody go back and listen to those episodes if you want to know more about it. But I love, even in the beginning of this episode, when you said half of my brain is atheist and half not, I was like, no, we're talking about parts already. It's already there. It's already there. So No Bad Parts is a book by the creator of Internal Family Systems. And it's a very easy read, but it will help you understand the inner workings of your mind so well. I love it so much.
00:37:47
Speaker
um And that was like ah a really big thing for me too is to be able to sit with and accept that there is a part of me that's an atheist. There is a part of me that has never bought into any of this and she's okay. Like that part of me is okay. And I don't have to war between the other part of me that is so terrified.
00:38:08
Speaker
yeah of that being true because you just have like, it's just a part of me. And it's not that it's minimizing those parts, but it's realizing that you don't have to choose like, Oh, well, which one is the real me face for all of them. So there is a part of me that thinks that all of this is BS. There is another part of me that loves Christianity so much and has really ah um like thrived in it for so long and and loves what it has done for my family and for um times when I was in low places in my life. And there are other there's another part that's very angry about it. you know So it it helps you to make room for all of your differing opinions.
00:38:49
Speaker
yeah And instead of trying to like war within yourself of like, okay, well, which one is right? Which is the one that I, which is the one that I believe it helps you to take a step back to say like, I don't know, like they're all just different and they're all okay.
Therapeutic Approaches: IFS and Original Goodness
00:39:03
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Oh, I'm so happy you're a fan of IFS because the book, No Bad Parts, has blown my mind out of my head. like That's graphic. But like it's just really been it's really been good because I've never thought about it that way. And i actually, there was a part in that book.
00:39:23
Speaker
where um Dr. Schwartz, right, I believe that's the other, he's yeah he talks about um how he presented this idea, I think, at an evangelical college. And of course, there was some pushback. But he said, this is Jesus's message. He's not, I would not say he's a Christian, I don't think, but he said, this is this is Jesus's message. He talked about going to the exile, the outcast.
00:39:43
Speaker
hearing them, calling them home, showing them their they belong. He said, all I'm asking you to do is to do that within yourself, with the parts within yourself. And I think a big part of why we see such hostility from Christians, and I will tell you I have never seen the hostility in my life, the rude thing said to me that I have seen from Christians, from those who used to, you know, praise me to no end, right, when I before all this, as I have in my comments since deconstructing. And Dr. Schwartz's words have been really helpful to me to think
00:40:18
Speaker
Okay, there are parts within them that are at war and dysregulated. And it gives compassion not only for yourself, not only for yourself, but also for others. So actually, if we talk about mental health, um during deconstruction, ah no bad parts, IFS, do it. I think it's great. I think it's helped a lot. no I think one of the things that drew me to it first was in the very beginning, hearing that the concept of it is that there is You at your core is undamaged and and not broken. yeah And I think for so many people, we need to hear that. That parts of us carry our pain for us and parts of us have parts of us have been broken. We've had these experiences in life that have just been um traumatic and heartbreaking and disappointing and all these things. But there is there is us at our core that is whole.
00:41:11
Speaker
and it has been protected. And that to me was such a different concept. And it was so beautiful because when you can look at people and say like, we've all been through some things and we all have made decisions because of those things, right? Like we are led by fear, we're led by um betrayal, all these different things. But to think at our core, people are good. I think that that actually, is that not more of Jesus's message of saying like, look at people and see the good in them?
00:41:41
Speaker
look at them and love them because that's the way that I view them is is totally lovable, right? And that was one of the things that drew me into IFS was like, what if we could really believe that about ou ourselves? That if we can work through and heal all of the parts of us that have been hurt, who would we be? We would be whole, we would be ah grounded.
00:42:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That's so beautiful and actually the funny thing about it this idea of original Goodness or but or maybe blessing I would say goodness as opposed to the idea of original sin Which so many of us have grown up with and which so many of us think if you forsake the idea of original sin You can't be a Christian. Let me just say I have an episode in my next season about two episodes about sin coming up that is a Later development in church history than many people realize the idea of original sin because I think
00:42:34
Speaker
Looking at the Bible, looking at these stories, even if you were firmly still in Christianity, in the inerrancy camp, to look at it through original goodness, so many more things make sense. Actually, why would God act this way? Why would Jesus treat people this way? and it's not we I always taught, well, it's because God's good. It's for the glory of God. But it's like, if people are good,
00:42:59
Speaker
but things have gone awry and there is something a benevolent god father who's trying you know the narrative makes a lot more sense actually so i that's why i think those things you know the the sin piece and hell especially to just deconstruct those first really helps the rest be easier to deal with I think because like you said you can enter the whole process with so much less fear yeah and to see yourself and your questions as an ally instead of the inner enemy and and I guess that does go to the parts thing when they start feeling safe when they start feeling like okay we're working together for the common goal
00:43:42
Speaker
things go a lot smoother and all all the terrible terrible emotions that can come with deconstruction truly I do think can become these beautiful experiences um and which I I'm so fortunate to have experienced some of the the fruit after the storm to a degree um but yeah let me ask you um
00:44:07
Speaker
I think for a lot of people, so for a lot of my clients, I'm thinking of a couple in particular, they're moms of young children. And I know you have young children too. Yeah. And I think one of the things that's so hard about this is that they're growing through it, but they're also trying to figure out, well, what in the world do I teach my kids? And there's this pressure that if I get it wrong, that's one thing, but I've got these little lives in my hands. Um,
00:44:33
Speaker
So how have you navigated that? Because I think that thats that's a different kind of pressure that parents deal with, that even if it's really painful for them, they still need to have their children in a church environment because that's if if they feel this obligation or they feel like they'll be failing their children if they don't. um How would would you?
00:44:56
Speaker
What kind of tips would you give her parents that are navigating this with um the young children?
Parenting and Fostering Faith Exploration During Deconstruction
00:45:01
Speaker
this is This is huge for a lot of people because um I remember specifically thinking, and it was ironically in the few years before my deconstruction, I remember thinking, wow, I'm the most secure I've ever been in my faith, faith and that's good because if I wasn't, it's not responsible to have children.
00:45:20
Speaker
Like I took this seriously. I took this very seriously. I was like, I don't know if they'll go to hell. I don't know if I'll, you know, when you take these things to their logical conclusions, right? These, these doctrines, why would we have kids? Why would we bring them into the possibility of being damned forever, eternally? You know, I, I really took that seriously, but I felt very confident in my faith and I was like, I'm going to do it. Then I had kids and started deconstructing. I was like, here we are. Great.
00:45:47
Speaker
um And it's terrifying because you feel the weight of having someone else's future in your hand. Now, I can only speak for me personally, but I have really, in my deconstruction and still holding on to the idea of God, I've really pressed into, there's little I know, but I do think if there is a God, he is good or she or they or whatever is good. Otherwise, this is not God. This is just some powerful being.
00:46:14
Speaker
But if there's a God, this is a good being, you know? and And when you, there is a rest that I find in there because a good being would understand honest questions and honest mistakes and would honor the attempt, right? And so that's helped me um relieve some of that parenting guilt and fear of what am I teaching my kids and what am I telling them? But honestly, Julie, I think for me,
00:46:43
Speaker
The big thing, they hear me talking about these topics all the time. They already hear it, right around the house um with my husband or whatever. I try to kind of, you know, censor some of this, but I have tried to be transparent in age-appropriate language with them. We have family that is very um firm in their beliefs. And so they hear that side and they will ask me my thoughts. And I often will say things like, yes, a lot of people think this.
00:47:13
Speaker
There are people who don't. This is what I think. I could be wrong. And I try and kind of keep that open-ended dialogue that doesn't show fear. and and And I'm telling you, my kids are very young. The only one who's really asked is my son, the oldest, and he's five right now. So that's only happened a few times. And I will tell you a very interesting story. One time he asked me, he's like, mom, is God real?
00:47:36
Speaker
And I remember thinking like, oh, this is the moment like old me would have been like, this is the moment that I, you know, like this thing I'd always wanted to talk with my kids about in my former life. And, and I was like, and I said, well, a lot of people have different thoughts on that. I said,
00:47:53
Speaker
I think God is real. Some people don't. And I remember he said, I don't think God's real. And like, my heart jumped into my throat for a second. And then I thought, wait, like, OK, I don't fear that the way I did before, because my paradigm, my understanding of God is different now. And I just didn't say anything. I kept doing dishes or whatever. And just a few seconds later, he said, no, I do think God is real. And then he just went off and played. And i it was such a fascinating moment, because I watched my son.
00:48:22
Speaker
Do in front of my face what I was not allowed to do as a child I was so afraid to do as a child to out loud articulate the questions and I was I Contemplated suicide as a child yeah because I had I couldn't I was so afraid to do that and I sat there at the sink with the dishes and I was like what just happened. So I don't know how to navigate this yet. I'm sure things will come up. You know, we are definitely in, can we're in Kansas. So we're also in a very Bible bell situation, right? And there's churches everywhere. There's all these events. And I don't know how we're going to navigate them, but I do know
00:49:02
Speaker
I will do with them what I have done online and I will just be honest and and not maybe all the nitty-gritty details but to be honest and to say I'm willing to talk with you about it and I'm also going to love you no matter where you end up on this and I'm also telling you right now I am not dictating where you end up on this because I think that's something so many of us growing up did not ever hear.
00:49:29
Speaker
We did not ever hear that we were going to be allowed to explore. So to me that's been the biggest thing about it. And trying to withhold judgment because you know sometimes my son has heard a lot of things and he'll tell me, um I can't remember what it was the other day, he'll say some you know like Oh, you know, God gave us this parking spot or something, which let me tell you, that's been one of my pet peeves even before deconstruction. um When people would say that, and I was like, well, I didn't get this parking spot. So what are we, you know, but, um but when my, I, I've tried to withhold judgment and I'll just laugh and be like, Oh, okay. They'll, because I'm like, he's entitled. I don't want to go the other direction now and be the overbearing deconstruction parent.
00:50:14
Speaker
who's like, no, you can't be around that or you can't, you know, so I think trying to handle them in the same way I would handle people in the deconstruction space, but on their level is something important for them to be able to process. That, man, that's just that resonates so much because to think about before you would have been worried about what belief he had And now you're saying i'm I'm much more concerned with what experience he has. yeah And instead hi right like instead of him walking away with a ah ah certain belief that he's like articulating either at five years old, instead you're walking away saying like, wow, that was so easy for him and that caused him no distress.
00:51:02
Speaker
It didn't cause him anxiety, it didn't cause him nervousness, it didn't cause, you know, to see him walk away from that experience and just be able to go play and not give it a second thought. yeah Like that i I think has to be, even healing to some of your younger parts too, to see that kids are allowed to be kids and not have to already be facing these questions that even in our 30s and 40s and 50s we're still debating, you know? To think that five-year-olds shouldn't have that pressure on them.
00:51:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And I think, I think there's a part of me that has been surprised at his ability to be as curious as he is. So young, but then again, I was like, I guess I was too. Um, but you're right to allow the curiosity, but then to say, you don't have to know today. You don't have to.
00:51:53
Speaker
In my opinion, you are not required to give your life to Jesus as soon as you can. so that we're you know That is a trauma response if I ever saw one. yeah The way that parents try to get their kids saved and I get it. I get it, but i think when I think of what hell has done to a lot of our psyches, the idea of eternal conscious torment, I'm like, that is producing trauma response.
00:52:15
Speaker
overload, collective trauma response, free I think. And if there is a good God, which I keep going back to, that is not how this would run. It's just not. And and I think, yeah, to to allow the questions and allow them to pass through without forcing them in a channel you know of belief, it's it Not only does it help him, I think it keeps um the the channel of dialogue open with me. right yeah And that's something I craved as a child and did not feel I had. Yeah, absolutely. I i heard you say that I think you had that same curiosity.
00:52:55
Speaker
Um, which in parts language, we call that like one of the seas of self, right? Like when we can be curious about something, we aren't being driven by fear. Like we can just, we can just openly question things. If you had that curiosity and it wasn't met with like encouragement, you probably learned to shut it down, at least as far as like going to others for answers. Yeah. You probably had to shut it down.
00:53:21
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I definitely did. And you know, it's funny because I can't remember specific things being told to me. I can't of people saying don't ask that or don't think that I think you know, but there is a there's an atmosphere you can sense as a child, yeah you can sense if you're safe.
00:53:41
Speaker
And I think that's one of the things to already have experienced him having that whole dialogue in front of me. I thought, oh, our atmosphere is completely different. yeah you know He's not laying awake at night screaming, crying because he's afraid of demons like I did. you know i really I had a lot going on. That's a good job. And so I'm like, this is vastly different. And you're right, it can be super healing to be able to foster that environment for our children so when we did not have it.
00:54:10
Speaker
um Yeah, and I like what you said too about this being a trauma response because a lot of people have a really hard time recognizing Their experience as being like being able to call it trauma Because for so many people they had really loving parents growing up who had really good intentions and they had um like you said like like nothing major like no big T traumas in their childhood and Um, and so you would describe it mostly as like, I was a normal kid. I had a normal family. Um, we, my parents love Jesus and they
Recognizing and Grieving Changes from Deconstruction
00:54:42
Speaker
wanted that for me. And so especially as an adult, you can see that the intentions were always really good. And so for a lot of people that have a hard time even recognizing just how significant the impact was on their psyche, like you were saying, and so they don't even, for a lot of people, like,
00:55:00
Speaker
I'm hearing you say that you can definitely recognize it, but for a lot of people, they don't even realize how much anxiety they carried. Um, and it's not just anxiety. It's, it impacts your sense of self so greatly. But one of the things that I see over and over again, especially in women is that we were taught not to trust ourselves.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah, and that is that causes major damage later in life because we make decisions coming from a place of I'm not trustworthy because I've been trained to think of myself as not trustworthy and that I feel like is a horrible message in the evangelical community and we're we're looking at versus like, you know, the heart is fleeting. It's not trustworthy. And so we're always taught to to look to someone else to give us direction instead of feeling really grounded. And we don't always have to make the perfect decisions, but we can trust ourselves. Like we are trustworthy. That's one of the things that I'm working with women on all the time is just being able to say like, no, my intuition, I can see that as being God given.
00:56:02
Speaker
I can trust my gut because I can trust that God gave me this gut to listen to, you know? um And so for a lot of people, it's not just telling anxiety, it's things like it has impacted your ability to trust yourself. um we were We were talking earlier, I think before we hit record about just like how much grief there is, but that's a huge process that you have to go through and grief comes with a ton of different emotions, you know, anger and sadness and confusion and hopefully some acceptance towards the end.
00:56:30
Speaker
um But I think that that's one thing that I just wanted to point out because some people might read a story of someone else's experience with deconstruction and they might be like, well, but I wasn't having, you know, like panic attacks about hell. That wasn't my particular flavor of trauma with this. But it might show up in so many other areas of life. um Like I know Dr. Camden Organti, I interviewed her last season and she just put out a book on purity culture and like the damage that it's done on people's sex lives and marriages and how it's impacted. And there's just so many different ways that I think people need to look at how has this impacted my mental health and what, and just what do I need to heal from it?
00:57:14
Speaker
who Yes. Grief is so huge. And I think, you know, I kind of like to touch on grief a little bit. and And even to go back to what you said about when people are kind of confused with what to do, well, I had loving parents and i there's this this deep tension of, but they traumatized me with this, what I call indoctrination now, but I can't i cannot,
00:57:40
Speaker
um ah How does that fit in my paradigm? Because they love me so much, they're such good people. And I just, I have had to wrestle with this. And and I think that you see grief kind of, especially on three levels, you see it with within the self. um You see grief in regard to God, if you if you felt you had a relationship with God, and you see grief in regard to other people. And when it comes to other people, especially I think feeling betrayed by other people and other Christians, one thing that's been really helpful for me is to think about if all the beliefs are true, the tro the trauma they put you through, and they wouldn't probably even think of it that way, but it was warranted in their mind to keep you safe. And I think about that like, you know, my parents absolutely thought hell was a possibility. So the fear for me, it was highly effective to keep me safe, right? And and I think when you're thinking about a life and death situation, but even like more than that, it's more than life and death. It's worse than life and death. right You can see this and it's helped me to accept two things at once. Yes, I was deeply hurt by this uninvestigated fear of theirs or uninvestigated belief that I think if, you know, as we collectively um and by we, I mean kind of the Christian community digs into theology more,
00:58:58
Speaker
I think we're going to see that one leave in the next, you know, however many years, century, whatever. it's it People will think hell is not eternal conscious torment. That's my prediction. We'll see. um But it was largely and uninvestigated um by my my faith community and family, but it was deeply believed. And in that case,
00:59:19
Speaker
You know, there was not mal intent towards me. And it's helpful. It helps it be cohesive to think, yes, I was deeply hurt. Also, you deeply love me and these things coexist and I'm able to truly forgive because of the not knowing.
00:59:34
Speaker
That you had you know and that is that's been a helpful thing um For a lot but but the grief of looking and being so frustrated at how things are damaged even in my own life from purity culture and and all of it and and who ah even am I at my identity and and looking and blaming these people I Think it is important to spend time on Doing that but to not get stuck there that doesn't mean you have to forgive everyone I don't think that doesn't mean you have to like Be happy and okay with everyone and everything that happened But I do think you know looking ahead moving ahead to what's what now in life is highly important to not get stuck in the cycle of grief concerning deconstruction and So towards others, I would say that's one thing that I've had to deal with with grief. And then towards God, I don't know i don't know what your journey was like. And now I want to interview you so bad because I want to know. But for me, deconstruction, even though I do still identify with faith as a a spiritual person, um I like the term agnostic Christ follower, which is a little bit of an oxymoron. but
01:00:41
Speaker
um understanding God differently considering do I have to give up the idea of God was grief paralleling the loss truly the physical loss of a person and the most important the most important person to me right because and it was very sad very hard and people didn't understand it I had an atheist um I was talking to a lot during ah my really active deconstruction and he had a really hard time understanding this you know because I think to him it's like well
01:01:12
Speaker
How are you losing a person? You've never seen them. You've never touched them. And I was like, you don't understand. yeah Even if it's my own brain, even if it's my own brain, I had a thriving relationship. Absolutely. And there is a deep loss and in a sense, a feeling of betrayal. I don't even know who to blame it on, but it is deeply there. It is really hard. And the very people that I have always leaned on for support and now don't feel safe to go to.
01:01:38
Speaker
So it's it's something people don't understand, but it's very much a phenomenon that happens to a lot of people. So if that is you, you are not alone. There are others feeling that and it gets better. It really does. um And then for the the sense of grief with self, that one for me was hard because you know, we are truly taught your identity is to be in Christ. And Christ had to do with this particular flare of Christianity. And, you know, my whole life, my degrees, my training, the the people I'm affiliated with, the work I'm affiliated with has to do with Christianity. um That was definitely the Christian good girl in high school, all this stuff, right? And so
01:02:24
Speaker
to be here the identity loss has been harder than anticipated i didn't think it'd be hard because i've also always had that skeptical nature wrestling side i was like if it's not true i will absolutely leave i used to say that and now i'm like even for me even for me it would be very difficult to just cold turkey you know especially back in the day to cold turkey go from I've been having this way of existing in the world that is completely a narrative intertwined with this faith
01:02:57
Speaker
to now a completely different way. you know and And the grief and there is a loss there, there's loss of potential. i love I love leading worship, right? I love it. And yet I feel now that I am not in a place in this season where I can do that with integrity and feel good about doing that. So there's there's actual tangible physical loss you know in that sense that has to do with identity.
01:03:23
Speaker
um but But on the other side of grief is authenticity and freedom and and and people who are open and who are able to sit with you through difficulty, through changing beliefs. And I think to push through, um as it's like there's a song, if you're going through hell, keep on going. And it's like, it really can be that.
01:03:50
Speaker
But I'm starting to see the benefits I'm starting to see the other side and it the thing is I thought going to the other side would mean having answers and having resolution and for me it has not. I am more unknowns and I've ever had and I am i so more aware than ever that I will probably never know.
01:04:06
Speaker
Like, I have hope, yeah right? But I will probably never know like I thought I would through this process. And yet there is a deep rest and a deep, ironically Christian term of resting in grace. I did not realize how much I relied on my beliefs to save me. Absolutely.
01:04:24
Speaker
And now to realize, I cannot lean on beliefs. I can truly only hope and trust that. If there's someone there who's going to catch or let us fall, I'll be caught. you know like it's It's just a very interesting um season, but there's so much more freedom and truly everyday peace than I've ever had.
Positive Outcomes and Purpose Found in Deconstruction
01:04:44
Speaker
so that is That's so incredible that you landed.
01:04:50
Speaker
even with that, because that was going to be my question, because we're talking a lot about how it takes a toll on your mental health, but there's pros and cons, right? Like I think that there, I don't want to paint this as this process is nothing but um pain. Like you were saying, there's also freedom and there's room to breathe. And there's, there's a ah release of anxiety once you work through it too. um And so I think that that's a really beautiful thing that you said before I relied on my beliefs to hold this up. And when I questioned the belief, it felt like, well, new beliefs are going to be what holds it up. Right? Yes. Right. Like it's, it's realizing that beliefs aren't what I need because those are, again, are the opposite of faith. Like it's, it's concrete things that we've always looked for and realizing that there is so much that can hold us up just through, um, I don't know, like, how would you describe it? Like I would say like,
01:05:43
Speaker
I think I connect with like loving others, like just the concept of loving others so much better now when there's not as much of an an agenda. There's not as much a, these are these are the concrete beliefs that tie us together and instead just looking at people, like we said before, if like I love you just because of who you are.
01:06:02
Speaker
Yes, more than that, right? Exactly. There are yeah things on, I don't want to say the other side, but but working through this does get better. Yeah, it does. And in a way, I will say for me, there's something in me that also feels like there It's not been a break from the whole journey I started out on. It's just the natural extension. It's just the next, you know, I always had that inquisitive spirit and now here we are. And I was just talking to someone about this, you know, ironically for me, when I have sat and thought, okay, am I an agnostic? Am I an atheist? What am I? Okay, okay. I don't know for sure, but what would the point of my life be if I was?
01:06:44
Speaker
o It came, like you said, it came to love. It's still about love. yeah I still think for me, the greatest purpose of my life is to love well. Myself, others, God, whatever, God is that ultimate good reality. And ironically, that is the same as it was before. yeah And so to realize that, I think I've come to the opinion, if it was about what our head knows about God, it would have been made a lot clearer.
01:07:12
Speaker
Like, it it would have. yeah i think it is I think it is about the experience truly. and to be a and And that actually frees you up, I think, because you can just submerge yourself now into the same experience. I say you, me. I feel I can just submerge myself into the same experience I had before. But with, like you said, with this agenda of like, I'm doing this because I'm trying to help you.
01:07:38
Speaker
I'm doing this because you don't know yet that you and it's like no I'm just doing this I'm doing this because this is part of my nature to recognize the good nature in you like part of my good nature is to recognize and appreciate and celebrate the good nature in you and The good the goodness in the world and it's just so much more organic less forced And it's almost like the colors are more vibrant on this side in some ways. um And so yeah, I think there's been a mindfulness, a presence and in the moment, i and I didn't realize that when I was younger, my mind was always going a million miles a minute.
01:08:14
Speaker
Thinking about witnessing opportunities thinking about what's God doing? What's the spiritual warfare happening right now? You know, i've I'm realizing I was so probably um Traumatized I didn't even know it but like I couldn't I never rested I never rested and and now to rest and to just it's just it's a different experience and I It actually reminds me ah more than ever of the peace that pass surpasses understanding. Passes understanding, right? The peace that passes understanding that Paul talks about. So it's very beautiful. Yeah. And maybe we don't have to understand as much as we want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Liz, this has been so amazing.
01:08:56
Speaker
Thank you for having me, Julie. I've really enjoyed it. And I, yeah, I'm really, I am so curious about your story now. So anyway, we'll have to, we'll have to connect on the other side now. Well, I am so excited about your new season and coming out. Um, especially the couple of episodes that you talked about on sin, like I'm super excited to learn more about that because that was really interesting. What you said about that being like a kind of a newer concept, um, of original sin. So, um,
01:09:22
Speaker
Everyone make sure you check out, go back and listen to all of her seasons. They're so awesome. I really like the way that you've structured your podcast as well, but I cannot wait for the new season to come out. And it's just a few weeks, right? Yes. November 19th. Oh, that's awesome. Yes. It's exciting.
01:09:39
Speaker
um Well, I will make sure to put all of your information in the show notes today so that people can find you, they can find the podcast, they can follow you on Instagram. I know you've got a lot of community building that you're doing, which I think is so incredible. um Yeah, I just appreciate this so much. Thank you, Julie. This was a lot of fun. Awesome. Well, I hope everyone enjoyed this episode and we will talk to you next time.
01:10:06
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of outside of session. Remember while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.