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Healing the Mother-Daughter Wound
93 Plays22 days ago
Relationships between mothers and their daughters aren't always picture perfect. In fact, they can be one of the most complicated relationships we ever have in our lives!
This week, Monique Evans brings her expertise in working with Mother-Daughter wounds in therapy, helping us understand the root of the issue and offering hope for what healing can look like.
About today's guest:
Monique Evans, LCSW (she/her/hers) is a licensed clinical social worker (licensed in NY and CT) who works as a full-time clinician as an employee assistance program counselor for a major hospital and sole-owner of her private practice (IG: @therapywithmo). Ms. Evans spent the first five years of her career conducting individual, family and couples’ therapy treatment. Ms. Evans holds unique knowledge of the child welfare and family court systems based on her prior experience working in family prevention programs and for a non-profit clinic program. In that capacity, Ms. Evans provided wraparound services which included family psychotherapy, care coordination, and other community-based services. Additionally, Ms. Evans is a graduate of Ackerman Institute for the Family’s postgraduate externship program where she received extensive training in couples and family therapy.
Ms. Evans obtained her B.A. in Sociology from Hunter College of the City University of New York. Afterwards, she continued her graduate studies at New York University- Silver School of Social Work to obtain her Master of Social Work (MSW) degree in 2016. In her training and development as a social worker, Ms. Evans has applied evidence-based treatment modalities to treat clients' presenting symptoms ranging from anxiety, mood disorders, school issues, childhood trauma and adult mental illness. She is a strong advocate for the needs of those in her clinical care. Ms. Evans is committed to serving her clients with grace, care and compassion through some of the most difficult challenges they may encounter. Ms. Evans’ identity as an African-American woman is important to her on issues of race, social justice, and consciousness inside and outside of the clinical context. She is passionate about these issues and how to continue these important conversations.
Connect with Monique!
Instagram : @therapywithmo
Website : moniqueevanstherapynyc.com
Resources from today's episode:
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Navigating Challenges
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome back to Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. Season three is all about navigating life's challenges and finding balance. We're continuing the conversations around mental health and I'm once again joined by expert guests who share their stories and tips and hopes to inspire you on your journey of healing and growth.
Exploring Mother-Daughter Dynamics
00:00:39
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to outside of session and I'm so excited for today's episode because it's going to be my first interview of the season and you are going to love my guest Monique today. We are going to be talking all things about the mother daughter wound and why mother daughter relationships can be so complicated and also how to heal from them.
00:01:02
Speaker
and therapy because that's what Monique specializes in. um So a little bit about my guest Monique Evans is a licensed clinical social worker in New York and then she's also licensed in Connecticut and she works as a full-time clinician as an an employee assistance program counselor for a major hospital and And then she's also the sole owner and of her own private practice, which is Therapy with Mo, which is how I found her on Instagram several years ago. and That's how we first connected. And I have just always loved the content that she puts out. And the mother-daughter relationship is one of the things that she specializes in that really drew me to her.
00:01:38
Speaker
um So a little bit about her, she spent her first five years of her career conducting individual family and couples therapy treatment. She holds a unique knowledge of the child welfare and family court systems based on her prior experience working in family prevention programs for a nonprofit clinic, um which I think is just so fantastic.
00:01:58
Speaker
um She's a graduate of Ackerman Institute for Families Postgraduate Externship Program where she received extensive training in couples and family therapy, which again is why she's such an expert in the mother-daughter wound. In her training as a social worker,
00:02:14
Speaker
Ms. Evans treats clients presenting with symptoms ranging from anxiety, mood disorders, school issues, childhood trauma, and adult mental illness. She's a strong advocate for the needs of those in her clinical care. She's committed to serving her clients with grace, care, and compassion through some of the most difficult challenges they encounter.
Identity and Social Justice
00:02:34
Speaker
Ms. Evans identity as an African and American woman is important to her on issues of race, social justice, and consciousness inside and outside of the clinical context. And she is passionate about those issues and how to continue these important conversations, which I just appreciate so much. um So with all of that being said, let's dive into today's episode and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I enjoyed recording with Monique.
00:03:02
Speaker
Monique, thank you so much for being here today. yeah Thank you for having me. Hey, Julie. I am so excited about this conversation. So, um, I think most people heard me say in your intro a minute ago that we have been Instagram friends for a while now. I have been following you for a really long time and just love the content that you put out, but this is our first time actually being able to sit down and talk. And I'm just really excited about it. And, um, just really grateful for you being here today. Thank you. Thank you so much.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so I have to admit, um like an hour ago when I sat down to just look over our conversation and get my thoughts together, I started stalking your Instagram a little bit. And I took so many screenshots of all of your posts because I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so good. That's so good. Like I probably have 20 screenshots in my phone right now because You just have some of those one-liners that you put out there that are so good. um And I'll definitely send everybody to your Instagram page in a little bit. But um before we jump into our conversation today, we're going to be talking about the mother-daughter
Understanding the Mother-Daughter Wound
00:04:07
Speaker
wound. That's kind of what you specialize in. Yes.
00:04:10
Speaker
yes Um, and I even want you to start by like defining that for yourself, having done this work for so long, like how you define it. But if you want to go ahead and start today, even by sharing a little bit about yourself as a therapist and how you even landed on this being your specialty, I'm really interested to learn about that too. Yes, absolutely. So again, thank you. Uh, super excited to be here with you. So my name is Monique Evans. I'm a licensed clinical social worker.
00:04:37
Speaker
I'm licensed in New York and Connecticut. I have my private practice, which is virtual. So um there's that. And I work with individuals, couples, and families. So family is my specialty. And as a part of that, I specifically focus on the mother-daughter relationship in my practice. And I've come up with um you know hashtag undoing toxic. So with that, we're undoing. We're unlearning.
00:05:02
Speaker
we're getting to the root of really difficult, really complicated relationships. And to answer your question about how did I become interested in this or do this, I found that, you know, like really basically, okay, woman or people who decide to have children often dream about the relationship that they're going to have with their child. And I think with that goes a lot of preparation.
00:05:26
Speaker
So what happens along the lines where now we're seeing a lot of, in particular, right, mother-daughter conflict, it's often portrayed in media, the teenage years, right, you know, parents start to dread the teenage years, you know, my kid is going to be, you know, defiant, terrible, we're not going to get along. um And oftentimes that carries into adulthood. So, and then, you know, oftentimes, and we have um mothers or children who then become parents of their own children. And then this becomes like an intergenerational cycle. So long story short, um how do we like cut this out? How do we stop this kind of thing?
Healing Relationships and Responsibility
00:06:05
Speaker
And how do we just help mothers, daughters, and families just have better relationships, repair relationships, repair cutoffs, and you know, a lot more that I'm sure we can get into later. But um that is the work that I do. I love what you just said that a lot of times this starts with
00:06:24
Speaker
sometimes even before the child is born, like how we envision motherhood to be. And we have all of these scripts that we write in our head and like all these ideas of how it's going to go. um So a lot of those expectations come like even before a birth. Yes.
00:06:42
Speaker
That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And I was also going to comment too on what you're saying about like that teenage narrative. I hate that so much. I have two teenage step kids right now and I can hear like over the years I've heard people say like, oh, wait till the teen years. It's going to be so rough. And I'm like, no, I, I don't, I want to reject, reject that idea. Like I want the teen years to be good and smooth because I genuinely believe they can be like, why are we not? Right. And that doesn't have to be my narrative, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Okay, so let's just start like foundationally for people who have never heard it described as mother-daughter wound before. like How do you define that? Yes. Okay, so a mother-daughter wound and this definition, right, can evolve over time. But basically, bare bones, it's the psychological or mental impact of a child or a daughter's relationship with their mother.
00:07:37
Speaker
these wounds or injuries, right? Such as like a cut can be cumulative. So these are things that kind of happen over time, right? You know, when I was five, my mom was like this and when I was 12 and when I was 25. So these can be things that are either kind of an isolation, right? So it doesn't have to mean that we're always fighting all the time, but it can definitely be things that pile up over time. And some of these things can be, you know, so such as like subtle criticism and validation,
00:08:06
Speaker
um And sometimes it can be over the top, you know, very grand in nature, right? You know, my mother and I, we had this huge blowout argument at, you know, Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner. And, you know, I was done with her. um And it can also include abuse, neglect, lack of emotional availability or capacity that one would expect from their mother. So basically that is the basis or definition of a mother, mother-daughter wound.
00:08:37
Speaker
That's really interesting. Even even coming into this episode, I guess I also was thinking in it in terms of kind of a um like a ah wounded daughter or that the relationship is wounded because of maybe some behaviors of mom.
00:08:57
Speaker
But does that also include vice versa of mothers maybe being wounded by their daughter's actions? Or is it when you describe is it it is it typically? ah Again, like I don't i'm I'm not necessarily trying to find like where is the blame here or who's the who is at fault here. um But a lot of what you're describing with that is behaviors that cause the daughter emotional damage and can it I guess I'm questioning can it be the other way around too? Oh, yeah. um totally Totally good and valid question. And yes, I would say that it it can go in both directions and it's definitely a reactive, right? there's There's a reaction. And I find that even in the ways that we find mother-daughter wound defined, there is a lot of responsibility on mom kind of going back to my initial definition because mom you know set out to have you imagine what it would be like. And we we do look to parents to guide
00:09:55
Speaker
children into becoming adults. So there is a lot of responsibility on the adult in the relationship. You know, it does become a lot complicated later over time than, okay, so you know, what do you do then with a adult mother and a adult daughter or adult child? um But when talking about, you know, I guess anyone who is dealing with a mother and like a true child, anyone under 18, we we are kind of placing more of the responsibility on mom, the adult should have or we hope to have more awareness um on the impact that they are having because they're their job right for the first 18 to 20 something years of life is parenting. So um yes, that's why I said the the definition also evolves and changes over time. um But on ah on a very basic level, we we are kind of looking at at the mom. So not to blame mom, but to call more awareness to what is mom doing
00:10:51
Speaker
that may be getting this kind of response. And yes, children also do hurt their parents' feelings. um Unfortunate, but it is a reality. And it's like, hey, if you're throwing insults at me and criticizing me, I may have something to say in in return, right? That's just kind of the nature of of relationships we want to defend ourselves.
00:11:14
Speaker
Absolutely. And I actually really like that we're starting the conversation off this way because I'm sure when you're working with, um, cause you're doing a lot of family family therapy, right? With mothers and daughters. Yes, ma'am. And the point of this is never to ah assign blame because I think that pointing fingers and and blame is is never productive, but I like that you're using the word responsibility.
00:11:47
Speaker
yes yeah Because moms are responsible for their minor children. right And I know so many women who actively want to work on and heal their relationship, talking about like adult women, they want to heal their relationship with their adult mother. And one of the things that they ask for most, one of the things that I hear the most is like, I just want her to be able to take some responsibility. And I think that we could heal so much if if that was just the start of this. um And so I guess so the reason why I'm saying that in particular is that if there are any moms listening to this who are thinking of their
00:12:27
Speaker
um like strange relationship with their adult daughter, that true healing is not going to be about just blaming you and making you feel guilty and making you feel like you're this horrible person. Like that's not the goal of this at all.
00:12:46
Speaker
Like healing is going to take you taking some responsibility too though. And that in and of itself can be like such a ah healing piece of this. Yes.
Therapy Engagement and Expectations
00:12:59
Speaker
So, i you know, I really loved what you said, Julie, and I want to add to that, right? You know, a lot of people, even in talking about, you know, maybe even some of the clients that you see, a lot of people come, even if they come individually, like, she has a problem, right? A lot of finger pointing, a lot of this, a lot of that, and like, she just needs to do this, and she just needs to do that. And it, you know, it's everyone else that we sometimes don't have the privilege to meet if they're not a part of the therapy. yeah So whether I'm working with someone individually or in the family context or, you know, mother, daughter, dyad, I actually have come up with a four step undoing toxic process. Um, so instead of like, okay, well whose fault is it or whatever, I actually try to help people recognize first, what is the problem? Identify the problem. And with that, we're not pointing, we're not blaming just,
00:13:54
Speaker
you know, we can't seem to get through a phone conversation without it blowing up. We can't seem to get through a dinner, even with the best of intentions. I, you know, plan this whole like Mother's Day thing and, you know, I'm just so uncomfortable. And then sometimes we find that mothers and daughters avoid each other. So while there is this like strong desire for connection, they avoid, they avoid each other to avoid potential problems that will come with being together or being in the same space or something like that. So I think when we go from whose fault is this or what did mom do or what did the daughter do, what is the problem? The problem is that we can't be together. The problem is that we can't spend time together. The problem is that we can't deepen our relationship because for some reason, right? And that's where we do a lot of the digging and the the therapy work, or, you know, if there is trauma that needs to be uncovered, identifying what is truly then the problem and
00:14:53
Speaker
both people, all people involved, share responsibility for resolving the problems in their relationships. So that's where I'm going to come in with one of your screenshots. OK. Because um I love this. You said, this is part of your undoing toxic um messages. who's responsible Whose responsibility is it to fix a mother daughter, a broken mother daughter relationship? And you said a problem between two or more people needs the work of all involved, which is always the case. um And I love what you said. You said the healed version of your relationship needs both of you.
00:15:32
Speaker
It does. So you're not going to get to a healed version with one person showing up and doing work, even if it's the person that you want to say like, they're the problem, they're the one at fault. The healed version of the relationship is going to take both of you. Yes, I love that. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so you said that there's a four step was that the that's the first step? Yeah, that's step one that we step one start there. and Identify what the what the root of the problem is, like what's really going here? Yes.
00:16:01
Speaker
And then um engage in the process, right? So, right? Is that therapy? Is that showing up for a coach? Is that even, you know, listening to a podcast such as this one, um right? Kind of unearthing for yourself. Okay. What is, you know, so uncomfortable, right? Like I get that text or I get that notification and, you know, I kind of like want to put it off until later. um And, you know, these are things that I have experienced. These are things that I've heard personally and professionally Um, you know, I kind of, you know, I see the call and I want to like call back later, you know, Oh, I'll, you know, I'll call after work or I'll respond to that. And then there's like so much anxiety. There's like so much anxiety about this that it's almost like some people like work themselves up to a point that it just makes it so right. Like you would call your friend back. Like you would call anyone else back. Like, but this is just like so intense.
00:16:56
Speaker
And it's not why, but it's what is making it that way, right? I think asking a deeper question. Envision healing, right? What, okay, what would, you know, I think we kind of asked this question in social work like that, Matt, like what would like the perfect day look like? Or right, you know, I would be able to pick my mom up for breakfast and it would go well. We would have like mani-pedis, mimosas, you know, whatever it is for you. Um,
00:17:24
Speaker
right you know We would be able to spend a you know a day together with you know with the kids, the grandkids, and you know it's not full of like criticism about my parenting or what my house looks like. you know I should move my table. um you know why Why do I have all this artwork up or not? right like We can just spend time together and you know I'm not like in my head. like i'm true you'rewe not just i right We are truly being mindful and enjoying this moment. and You know, ah i'm i'm on I'm not on pins and needles about it, right? And we can both look back after the day's over when the day's done and say, it was great to have spent time together.
00:18:03
Speaker
That's interesting. Do you, do you ever have people that have a hard time like even answering that question? Because they've become so, um like the walls are up so high that they're like, I can't even imagine spending a day with my mom and it going well or um like even they might be really reserved and saying like, I just want to be able to get through one conversation, ram it blowing up into a fight. Yes. Yeah.
00:18:29
Speaker
So that's why engaging in the process comes second because then, right, there are going to be things when I say it's the responsibility of both or all involved, there are going to be things that both mom and daughter are going to have to be aware of. Like, okay, well, um, you know, maybe mom, if you're super critical and you now know that that's a button or a trigger or something that sets the interaction off, right? You know, it's not to say, you know, sit your, you know, sit and fold your hands and say nothing. Um, right. You know,
00:18:59
Speaker
be mindful. Okay. And for you, right, you know, what is kind of the intention, right? What is the intention? What's the impact? You know, where is it coming from? Is it truly malicious? You know, is this person out to hurt you? Or can you kind of see, okay, maybe delivery was off, but I, I see, like, I see where she was coming from. And right, I can digest. A lot of times we have a hard time digesting things from certain people because we're like expecting it to be packaged a certain way. And when it's not, we get upset, right? Therapists included, like oh yeah we're we're we're also human. um So right, so then I feel after going through some of that work, you know, even early in the therapy process, people are, you know, able, like, well, I just want to be able to get through a conversation, right? What is it going to take to get through the conversation, right? Like someone's going to have to step back and someone's going to have to step up.
00:19:52
Speaker
right And sometimes that even comes with, you know, I also talk to my clients and people I know, you know, setting boundaries, right? Like, okay, if this does get nasty, right? If this does kind of get out of hand, what limits are we gonna set, right? Like, does this mean that we like pack up, discontinue the outing and go home? Does this mean, hey, mom, daughter, like, I love you, but I think we should get off the phone right now. Like, I don't want this to get out of hand. um And then can we come back, right? Can we revisit what happened, right? What was happening?
00:20:21
Speaker
you know, trauma question, where were you feeling it in your body? Right? You know, I started to get high, my heart started to race, i start my throat started to close up. um I started feeling like really, really angry, really, really uncomfortable. And you know, anger is also a surface emotion, right? You know, so was it anger? Were you really frustrated? Were you really disappointed? So there's a lot of rich information we can get from that. And by unpacking that, I think mothers, daughters, women in general can really okay, what would possibly potentially the healed version of your relationship look like? And what are some you know concrete things we can do? Hey, I'm not saying that you're going to jump on the plane and go to Bali tomorrow.
00:21:03
Speaker
tomorrowra But right you know relationships also do have to be tested. Let me be honest. right um I'm not sitting here trying to sell a dream. right like you know Hey, I don't know, go to IHOP, you know try a little breakfast, you know You don't want to be stuck, you know, on like a seven day cruise and you know, it's like hell. So right we're going to do baby steps here. It's like baby steps for sure. And, um, break the cycle, right? We don't want to reproduce these patterns. Um, whether it be with our moms, you know, also we have other types of mothers and mothering in our life, right? Aunts, sisters, cousins, um, friends, mentors. So we.
00:21:44
Speaker
We may also have these people in our lives and we may also find ourselves being in these positions. We don't want to replicate these dynamics. So I think by engaging in this process, right, therapy of any kind that brings awareness to things that you want to change in your life, I think is cycle breaking. And I think that is undoing toxic. I love that. And I love what you said before about having, um,
00:22:08
Speaker
having conversations together to say like, okay, if we're going to try this, if we're going to try an outing together, how do we know when it's time to pack it up? And those are boundaries, but a lot of times I call those like safety rails.
00:22:19
Speaker
Because that's really saying like, we can give ourselves limits. And we don't have to put ourselves in a position where it gets to a 10 out of 10. We're going to agree to go ahead and call it if on a day it gets to seven out of 10. And then we can come back and regroup and talk about like, Why did it get there? um So that you're not trying to do too much too fast, because you're right, like, at the beginning of learning how to repair all of this, you're not going to be able to have a couple of conversations. And then have it all figured out. um Yeah. Another question I have is, so when you're talking about engaging in the process,
00:23:00
Speaker
What do you do when it's pretty obvious that one person is driving the and engagement and the other person isn't fully ah invested yet? um Like if you have maybe a mom reaches out to you and says I really want to do this work but the daughter is really hesitant or maybe the daughter is the one that reaches out and mom doesn't believe in therapy or or does kind of hold some of those fears of this is just going to be ah a session where you ah like rip me as a mom and I don't want to have to you know, there there is that fear of blame and guilt and things like that. So how do you how do you make sure that both parties are engaged? And is it even important for investment to be equal coming into the process? So
00:23:47
Speaker
Yes, i I have had this come up in my own practice. I'm sure other therapists as well. And I often say to folks, um whoever can show up for the consultation, that's also a good sign of readiness and addressing some of those fears. And I also let people know, I'm not a judge, right? I'm not here to kind of litigate, okay, well, you know, this is the chain of events that happened at this particular time. And we want someone who's going to tell us like, right and wrong.
00:24:17
Speaker
sorry to burst your bubble. Like that's not what I'm here to do. Like I said, I'm here to help you understand, identify and understand the problem. And really and truly, right? Like pointing fingers doesn't help anything. Um, I would say it is important to get buy-in eventually. I do, I do appreciate anyone who does show up and even gives the process a chance, right? So therapy can be intimidating.
00:24:44
Speaker
even without therapy, sitting down with the person that you have a issue or a conflict with to even speak about that is intimidating. So in whatever way that you're trying to address your issues for forward movement, forward growth, I think is i think is truly amazing in in any case, but I think that's why I try to be very transparent even about my process and sharing it here today about this is what it's gonna take And it's not just about, right, the person who is perceived as, you know, who has caused the mother wound, who has caused the injury that, okay, well, we're just here to beat up on you. And Monique, the therapist, is going to take my side. Like, no, it's almost like I'm going to hold the mirror up for you, mom. And I'm also going to hold the mirror up for you, daughter, and we're going to have a conversation about it. um Sometimes work, you know, to whoever's listening, sometimes mother-daughter work is not coming in together.
00:25:41
Speaker
sometimes you have to start it on your own. And i I really like to scaffold with clients and therapy seekers, okay, I understand that maybe this is like your goal on step five, but maybe right now we need to build up to that. And when mom or your daughter does come into session, or if that even happens, or how would you have this conversation with them? What are you really going to say? Right? Like besides,
00:26:08
Speaker
I'm pissed off. I don't like the way you talk to me. I don't like the way you treat me. um Something that also comes up with parents, right? I'm expected to do so much. I provide so much and I don't get respect. I don't feel listened to. I've, you know, I've helped you build this life that you have. I ah do all this good for you and I met with no appreciation. That's huge. um This is the impact it's having on me as a person, right? This is how it's hurting me. I don't feel good about it.
00:26:38
Speaker
And this is talking about investment, right? I'm invested to address the issues in our relationship so that we can get along better, hopefully. And what are the things that I have to do and what are the things that you have to do? And also, right? I like what you said, like safety rails, right? What are, like, what's out of bounds? Like, you know, like you can't curse at me. You can't, you know, whatever. Like you can't go there. Like you can't talk about,
00:27:03
Speaker
my you know relationship with my in-laws or you know whatever, or my partner. um right and like These are going to be the new rules of engagement. right so Talking about breaking the cycle, people who have issues in their relationships, I don't care if it's your mother, your daughter, your romantic relationship, friendships,
00:27:25
Speaker
you have to make new rules of engagement. Sure, maybe I was a pushover before, but now today I'm telling you maybe I didn't make you aware before. It actually does bother me when you give very unsolicited advice. It really does bother me when you do this and I want you to be mindful. And I will also let you know when you are like hitting up against a boundary and you may get some pushback, but if you let people know what doesn't work for you anymore, um We're going to be at risk of losing the relationship because I'm letting you know it it can't fly. It can't fly anymore. Yeah. So you said something a minute ago about, um, a lot of times what you hear from mom is I feel like I've done so much and it's gone unappreciated, which is, which is a huge pain point. No, no one likes to feel the feeling of being unappreciated. But that was one of the things that I was going to ask is like, what are the typical struggles that you see? Um,
00:28:27
Speaker
Like when people present, what is the, I know there is no typical, right? But I guess a lot of people that I work with, and I don't work with families or couples, I do just individual, but a ah lot of people have this narrative of, I know my mom loves me.
00:28:48
Speaker
And they would even, for a lot of people, they'll even describe, like, I had a pretty good childhood. And then there's ah a long list of things that they're struggling with. And I'm just like, Oh, well, did you ever get that validated? Or did you get that need met as a child? And so yeah I guess what I'm asking is, like, a lot of people, I don't think that they would describe their relationship as a mother-daughter wound.
00:29:10
Speaker
Because we typically like minimize our pain in a lot of ways now some people definitely know they've been able to um but Because it's been so toxic and so volatile for so many years. They're like, yes, I know this is me um But I guess what would you say is like Again, I don't want to say the average because there isn't an average but what are the what are most mothers and daughters presenting with so Maybe just some examples. So moms feeling unappreciated. What are some other things that you hear a lot? Yes. um Communication, right? So that's kind of like, we just can't talk. um And sometimes, and then there are also, I find families who, like, OK, like, they're very polite, right? Like, OK, I can say, What was my issue? You can say, What was your issue? But there's kind of no
00:29:59
Speaker
okay, with now what do we do with that, right? Like, okay, well, I don't like when you are like very volatile and over the top and you know you just expect me to you know eat it up. um What do we kind of do with that, right? um So communication and trying to make some of these requests, like I said, digestible, right? Baby steps. We're not jumping on the plane tomorrow, but how do we kind of build up to navigating? And I think this is also where we see parenting relationships then translate into adulthood, right? Like your child is your child, but your child is also now an adult, right? So the playing field and then, um you know, launching into it an adult mother-daughter, mother-child, parent-child relationship, it's it's completely different. um So yeah, I find communication, um sometimes even lack of communication cutoffs, right? So um
00:30:53
Speaker
sometimes people who are in conflict with each other, it's not because they're arguing. They've actually been at the point of we haven't talked for five years. We haven't talked, you know, especially, you know, now we're in October, the holidays are coming up. I get a lot of, should I reach out? Should I go? Should I not go the holiday dinner? How do I make my holiday escape plan? Um, so Yeah, I would say mostly communication, trying to bridge a cutoff. and I feel like criticism is a big one too that I see. um On both ends, like daughters perceive everything that their mom says as criticism and vice versa. So if you have any differing opinion at all, it feels like criticism. Is that one that you see a lot? Yes, yes.
00:31:42
Speaker
Yeah, criticism of how you're parenting your children or criticism of how um they parented you like everything. And especially like I think if you aren't on the best terms with someone, it's easier. It's much easier to interpret everything. It's it's so easier to take offense, right? Yeah. Someone that you trust and value could give you, you know, maybe some like hard criticism, but right? You kind of see it through a different lens. If I already see you as someone who has hurt me, right, talking about cumulative mother wounds or cumulative relationship or relational injuries, I'm almost looking at you funny before you even open your mouth, right? Um, so yeah, that, you know, that's what I'm saying, you know, even on the side of the person who has been offended, what
00:32:34
Speaker
Right? Kind of breaking it apart, taking the emotions out of it. What about this information is offensive? Right? Was it tone? Was it the words? Was it the message? Because we also add our own interpretation onto the best things, right? Like what is that phrase? Like the best intentions is like a paved road to hell. I don't know. But, um,
00:32:59
Speaker
It's almost like if I'm looking for it, I'm going to find it. right So if i'm going if I'm looking to take issue with everything that you say, then some people also feel constrained right in a bind. Well, I don't know what to say to her. And this is on the side of both. It could be mother or daughter. right I don't want to upset her. So then I don't say anything. So then we don't communicate. So I don't know. I don't know. like Then what?
00:33:21
Speaker
Gosh, and that's that feels like such a hard place to get out of because you're right. Even a friend or you know anybody in our life, if you're on good terms with them and you don't have all of this tension built up, if you said something, if you you know got a new haircut or something, um and you're like, do you like it? I would expect my girlfriends to be like, no, that ain't the one for you. I liked it. I liked your hair better when it was darker, or I liked it went better when it was lighter, or something like that. I wouldn't take offense to that. I would be like,
00:33:50
Speaker
That's their opinion. And, OK, like, I would give it no more thought than that. But if it came from somebody that I feel like I'm already at a place of, gosh, they criticize me all the time, if they said something about something new that I did, a pair of jeans, whatever, I would be like, gosh, they can't find anything good to say. They always have something negative to say, when it probably is a pretty normal response. We've just conditioned ou ourselves to see it as criticism. Right.
00:34:25
Speaker
Hey everyone, just wanted to take a quick break and say thank you so much for all the love and support you've shown to outside of session. Make sure you subscribe so that you never miss an episode and share with your friends who could use some inspiration. Now back to today's episode.
00:34:44
Speaker
ah Easy loophole out of that. I tell people, and this is something that can work with family, friends, whoever asked permission, right? You know, like I said, like maybe right? Maybe my new hairdo or my new life choice or whatever. If it's not affecting you, it's really none of your business, right? And I think that's what most people would say. But if you do, right, because a part of mothering and parenting is giving feedback, is giving advice, ask, right, would you like to hear what I have to say? And I think when you ask a preparatory question like that, even for someone who may be sensitive, who may be okay, like,
00:35:23
Speaker
you know, she's going to like hit me with something again. Um, that's also a good time for you to check in. yeah Am I, am I kind of like over preparing? And, um, now this person has let me know rather than feeling caught off guard and okay, I have time to like process. And you also give the person the option of saying no, right? Like I don't want to hear it. And then back to the other, right? It's like, it's like tennis. It's like back and forth and then back to the other person.
00:35:51
Speaker
Right. Okay. You now asked if you get told, no, I'm not ready to hear what you have to say, or just no. yeah That's a boundary, right? Are you going to respect it to like, okay. Yeah. But I love that because on the receiving end of that, if, if you ask that question first, like, Hey, can I give you some feedback on it? That feels so, um, like respectful.
00:36:20
Speaker
Like you're starting from a positive place instead of a negative place. You're starting from a place of, wow, she remembered to ask. She's giving me a choice. um Like I feel like that's going to put you in a better place. And also you can check in with yourself to say like, am I in a place right now to receive something that potentially could be um negative or critical?
00:36:39
Speaker
But again, like if you're coming from a place of I would rather receive a criticism if I have been respected first and given choice first, then you can check in with yourself to say like, am I in a place to receive that right now or not? Yep. Yeah.
00:36:55
Speaker
um You know as a trauma therapist myself I'm just thinking about how the two overlap because a lot of work that I do is with complex trauma Which is a is what you described in the mint in the beginning of the episode as just like a lot of paper cuts is what I call them so it not is not necessarily this one big event that sticks out of um a Big break in the relationship, but it was just like the patterns of the relationship growing up and that that can be considered complex trauma But I'm just wondering like how much do those two things overlap and how often are you seeing it where it wasn't necessarily?
Complex Trauma and Relational Pain
00:37:33
Speaker
overly like volatile where there were big, um, violent outbursts or, um, ah big abuses like that. But it was more just the pattern of the relationship as you went from childhood to adolescence to adulthood. Like, is that typically what you're seeing more, um, as opposed to the, like the bigger T trauma type relationships? Yes. So while While I was listening to you, big T and small T trauma came came to mind and, you know, not to separate or minimize, but I think it is important to differentiate that yes, there are going to be people who do experience, right? Like big T trauma is talking about abuse, talking about neglect, abandonment, um you know, maybe not even having a relationship or being raised
00:38:27
Speaker
by their parents and finding themselves um vulnerable um and maybe sometimes cared for by other people, other parents who may step in, other systems that may step in, and sometimes maybe not. um So right that's that is that is a form of a parenting wound in and of itself. right And those constitute what we would call in the mental health field, you know the big traumas.
00:38:53
Speaker
and then We also have, you know, I like what you said about kind of like paper cuts, right, which are kind of like cumulative adding up kind of micro invalidations. Right. So on the day to day, right, someone may be like, no, like, you know, I didn't have a childhood where I grew up and I was abused and neglected. But, you know, I noticed, you know, my, my household, my my parents, my family was very critical. And that definitely affected how I saw myself or I questioned my own judgment because
00:39:24
Speaker
someone else was always deciding for me. And they also, they always asserted that they knew best. And that made me feel like I didn't know enough or, um, you know, even in trying to do something, something was always off so I could never do anything right. So now I'm a perfectionist and I'm a perfectionist to the point that, right. It's like debilitate, debilitating. And, um,
00:39:49
Speaker
Also some people I think suffer from like analysis paralysis, right? I think too much about things so deeply that I take no action on them. um So are those things traumatic? Would some people say, well, I'm just trying to raise a good, you know, raise a good child and, you know, to be mindful and conscientious? Yes. And at what cost, right? um So in looking at that, is a mother wound a type of trauma? Yes.
00:40:18
Speaker
and what your mother wound looks like and what goes into that, right? The relationship injuries will look different person to person and mother-daughter dyad to mother-daughter dyad as we're um specifically talking about that, right? We can, you know, a lot of people talk about father-daughter issues, father-son, father, you know, father wounds, um but for the purpose of our conversation, our podcast today, um you know, just trying to keep it specific to the mother-daughter. so Yes, it is possible. It is possible to have a traumatic childhood and have a mother daughter wound. And it is also possible to not have those huge big T traumas and still experience mother daughter wounds. And, you know, you can say, well, you know, i I was cared for, I lived at home and all the things. I had a quote unquote pretty normal childhood and you can still have experienced this for sure.
00:41:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think I err on the side of trying not to define what is trauma and what's not trauma. Right. um Because it is so different for everyone. And it doesn't really matter if we can call it trauma or not. Your experience is still your experience. Right.
00:41:34
Speaker
And I think I just want to take a second to like really normalize for people that it doesn't matter how like, quote unquote, okay, you felt your childhood was, if you were hurt, and it's causing the relationship to be difficult now, it is enough to go to therapy for. I guess that's what I'm trying to get at is there are a lot of people that are there just like, we should be able to figure this out ourselves, or it wasn't that bad. We minimize so much that I see people Really not reach out for help or not try to work on the relationship because they feel like um it's just not bad enough for it wasn't big enough for there wasn't um like there's a lot of we should be able to get through this ourselves and so
00:42:16
Speaker
Kind of going back to what you were saying before, of there's just a lot of avoidance. You just avoid the phone calls and and you ah avoid the interactions because you do know that it's really, really painful. Like everything in your system is telling you that this is um painful and hurtful and emotionally may be dangerous in a way. Um, so like your body and your actions are saying that this is an unhealthy relationship for you. But then when you ask yourself the question of like, okay, so do we need help for it? People shy away from it because it's just like, Oh, but it's not really that bad because I do know that my mom loves me. And that's the thing is this is not necessarily about
00:42:53
Speaker
the amount of love that there is in the relationship. There's tons in so many relationships, but that doesn't make it easy. And that doesn't make it easy to navigate without outside resources and outside help. Yes. A lot of people, and I think woman, I want to definitely get into this a little bit more before we wrap up is the love someone has for you or the love you have for them does not excuse you or them from accountability for actions and inactions.
Love, Accountability, and Trust Issues
00:43:25
Speaker
Oh, say that again. Say that whole thing again. That was so good. The love someone has for you or you have for them does not excuse you or yourself from accountability for actions or inactions. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
00:43:48
Speaker
So where does love come into these conversations? Like when you're um working with, whether it's one side or both sides of it, how do you bring love into the conversation? For the most part, I haven't, I haven't heard anyone say, you know, in my sessions that they don't love each other. I think they are there because they do love each other very much, right? It's known, it's felt,
00:44:16
Speaker
But love is met with so much conflict. And I think as a society, overall, we think where there's love, there's no conflict. And I beg to differ. We actually argue more. We actually test relationships more with the people that we're closest to yeah and love and care about. um you know To put it plainly, I say, OK, well, how do you know this person loves you, right? um Is it a feeling or is it the things that they do for you? um Loving care go hand in hand. I think we care for a lot of people. We can care for anybody, but there are people that we will love and that's different. So it's not just only the actions, right? So going into parenting, it's not just, I paid for all the field trips and you know I let you get your hair done and you know I pay for all this expensive stuff. it's not only It's not only what you can buy, right? People talk about parents buying kids love and all of that.
00:45:13
Speaker
It's not about buying the love. It's, you you know, like, let's say it wasn't about money or it wasn't about gifts. Would, like, would the emotional connection of your relationship still feel the same? And I think this that's a way that we can differentiate between care and love. um I wanted to talk about trust. I think okay a lot of people, right, even I would say myself included, we then,
00:45:42
Speaker
okay, you've had you know a less than desirable relationship with your mom. How does this translate into your connection with other people, right? Men, woman, romantically and friendship. um yeah Are you expecting this person to be a backstabber? Are you then trying to overly pursue people or are you trying to be too, like Are you trying to make yourself digestible, right? I've used this word a bunch of times today. Are you trying to, I don't know, like make yourself bite size enough that, you know, if I'm not too much, if I'm not too argumentative, if I'm not too this, if I'm not too that, and, you know, I also want to be honest, right? Like, I think there are also cultural and racial differences, right? So for me as a, as a black woman, there's a lot said if you are too much or too this or too that as a black woman,
00:46:38
Speaker
And that may make you undesirable to romantic prospects and things like that. So not, you know, not to turn this into a dating podcast episode, um but I think the reality is the impact of the mother-daughter relationships affects us in other realms and other arenas. And it's so connected. And I think this is why I'm so invested in doing this work to help people at any stage, right? So whether it be parenting a young child, parenting a teenager,
00:47:08
Speaker
um this often when people come in, um, you know, early adulthood or, you know, even for the woman who is, I don't know, 30, 40, 50 something trying to figure it out. And I can't tell you how many times, you know, spend at least five minutes with somebody. If they start talking about their family, they will talk about their relationship with their mom. And right. How do we kind of get over this betrayal? Because I think deep down also the mother daughter wound has include some kind of betrayal, right? Some, you know, you said like, was that need met or validated for you before? And oftentimes it was not, right? So trust. If I can't, if I couldn't trust my mom or if I couldn't trust my daughter to do this for me, who will? Who's going to meet this relationship need? So we go looking for it elsewhere.
00:48:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um One of the, one of your posts that I screenshotted earlier was about that exact thing. Like, how do we, um like, are these situations that we find ourselves in, are they really new? Are these just patterns that we're repeating, which we do in all different areas of life, because we're trying to get a different result? Right?
00:48:24
Speaker
um And one thing I really really like what you said a little while ago about cultural differences and I think that I want to go back to that just for a second because depending on your background, I think there are different expectations of what the mother-daughter relationship are is allowed to look like, especially when you're thinking of um whether or not you're allowed to share with your mom any anything that can be perceived as a criticism, like
00:48:56
Speaker
depending on your background. And that could be culturally, that could be religious, that could be ah um also just like your family unit. Like, for a lot of people, there's a feeling of like, I'm not allowed to tell my mom that she hurt me. I'm not allowed to speak on that. And for a lot of different communities that I know that you're not allowed to, ah Break from your family like even if everything in you is saying like this is not getting better. This is really toxic for me um But mothers don't break away from their daughters. So and daughters don't daughters do not or should not there's a lot of should Talk about expectations, right should not right you you should not not be talking to your mother or your family What do you mean? You're not going to? whatever, you know insert holiday dinner occasion birthday, whatever
00:49:43
Speaker
Um, and also there's like the, I mean, maybe now, you know, speaking, you know, I'm, I'm African-American, my family's Jamaican Caribbean. Um, you know, there's a lot of still like at the end of the day, this is still your mother at the end of the day. This is still your father at the end of the day, right? This is still your family. So it kind of goes back to what I said about responsibility and accountability.
00:50:09
Speaker
people use that, right? People use the relationship as justification. And what we are doing is we're trying to go against that to say, no, well, yes, because you are my mother, because you are my father, because I love and care about you, this relationship is important to me. I want us to engage in a way that for the most part, not to say that we're not going to have issues, feels good for both of us all involved, regardless of age. It's not just because you get to you get a free pass to treat me anyway. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that plays a really big part in...
00:50:47
Speaker
A lot of people's um anxiety of even setting boundaries because you're not just talking about the relationship that you have with mom and daughter.
Cultural Influences and Expectations
00:50:57
Speaker
Other family members are going to have opinions about how you set boundaries too. And there is a pressure that even if you know that this is hurting you a lot, but at the end of the day, if this is your mom, like you're going to hear it from other people if you don't show up for Christmas dinner.
00:51:12
Speaker
Right. Yeah, so it's really hard to like, it's it's so complex to think about how do I set and hold boundaries? Yes. You know, another issue that I think comes up for most people, and, you know, we I think us as therapists, we often may hear this from our clients. You know, you didn't just wake up a people pleaser. You were conditioned to be that way, right situations, you know, maybe sometimes even manipulation.
00:51:39
Speaker
made it that way or right conflict avoid it. I don't want it out i want no smoke. I don't want any issues. So I'm just going to write. like I'm putting other people's needs before my own. And I've just digested a lot to stay in relationship. And I find that by the time that people may come to see you or see me or a therapist in general for therapy, they've realized that they want to do something different. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
00:52:07
Speaker
Um, two other things that I had that I wanted to make sure we hit on is something that you said on your page about FOMO and the grief of maybe not having the relationship with your mom or with your daughter that you dreamed of or that you maybe you see other people get to have just like an like an easy relationship with their mom. Like I hear that a lot is like, for some people it just looks so natural and so easy. And I, I know a lot of people that hold like a jealousy of, you know, I have friends that think of their mom as their best friend. That's not something that I ever got to experience. So there's a lot of grief too. Um, can you just share a little bit about that? Cause I know that that's a big puzzle. I remember when I created that content and um,
00:52:55
Speaker
this line that has stuck with me forever is all therapy is grief. There's something that we're missing that we're looking for that we're trying to get. But um yeah, mother-daughter relationship FOMO for sure, right? Like it just looks easier. They just get it. They just get along. They're able to do the things. And I think that FOMO, I think you can experience it any day, but I think it's definitely heightened you know, again, you know, not to blame holidays or social media, right? You see these kinds of picture perfect media movie examples of, you know, all the things, right? Whatever it is that you desire. Um, you know, I would love to take a mother daughter trip. I would love to do this. I would love, you know, whatever, right? And it can be so simple, right? I would love to just spend an afternoon together. I would love for us to be able to cook together. And why is that? Um,
00:53:52
Speaker
and there And there is a grief and I think in you know processing and going through grief, you're trying to understand where are a lot of these feelings misdirected, right? Like a lot of anger, also a lot of expectation and then social work, right? Meeting people where they are, right? So we can idealize relationships with anyone. What's really my capacity and what's really my mom's capacity, what's really my daughter's capacity, um you know, kind of going back to what does a mother or woman envision her relationship with her child to be like, you know, maybe you're like, I can't wait to have a daughter and we're going to have tea parties and we're going to like paint each other's nails. Like, what if your kid is just not yeah into that, right? What do you then do with that, right? You just want to be able to spend time together. It really doesn't matter what you do.
00:54:48
Speaker
but right the way in which you imagined it when it doesn't go that way, that is grief and you do have to do something with that. I love all of that because on the other side of that grief is you're grieving,
00:55:05
Speaker
what maybe you thought it was going to look like and and as you grieve it and let it go you're also asking yourself like okay well what is another option that maybe i never thought of before because um especially if you envision it and and when you're envisioning it you're not thinking about the actual person in your life so you're looking at other people's relationships or you're creating a fantasy that never existed all of that has nothing to do with the actual person that you're in relationship with and so as you grieve it, you're also able to allow yourself to say like, okay, but what could it look like between the person that I actually have, who maybe doesn't have the interest that I hoped that they were going to have, or they, they have made choices in their life that maybe I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that it can't be something still um beautiful and meaningful and loving. It's just not going to be maybe, way you know, like if we hold on to what we think a person should be,
00:56:02
Speaker
you're gonna be highly disappointed like you have to let people be who they are and I don't know like i I just imagine like going through that grieving process is letting go but as you release one thing what does that open you up to be able to have after that I agree yeah um okay so earlier today I posted that we were jumping on this afternoon to record this and so I asked guest just if they had any questions for you that might be anything that I
Preventing Future Wounds
00:56:32
Speaker
didn't think of. And I had a really good one come through and it was very short and sweet and simple, but it just said, how do I make sure that I don't wound my daughter? Oh, um, good and big question. And I'm so shout out, shout out to whoever asked that. Um, I'm, we're totally seeing you right now. So like I said, right? Um, parenting is not, there's like, yes, I know there's books out there, but right. Like there's no one perfect book, right?
00:57:00
Speaker
There's all of that. So it's not about sitting on your hands and doing nothing. I think truly it takes a lot of openness. I think it takes a lot of curiosity. And also as parents, and I know that this may sound radical, also being open to be, to being corrected by your child, right? If, if your child, you know, I don't know if they have, uh, Oh, they said daughter, sorry. Um,
00:57:25
Speaker
right? Like, if you get feedback of like, that really hurt my feelings, or, you know, why, you know, why did you yell at me? Or, why can't I do this thing, right? 2024, are parents more open to explaining rationale for permission or lack of permission to do things? Sometimes it's really a conversation, again, has to be age appropriate. I don't, I don't know the age of this child, but i think I think oftentimes, right, rupture and repair is going to happen in relationships. so If we want moms to be sorry, daughters also have to be sorry too. And I think if we model, right, if we model like, damn, I really fucked up. I'm sorry. You know, I thought about it. I was, you know, whatever it was, right? Like I was really upset. I had a bad day. You didn't deserve that.
00:58:18
Speaker
I think just even modeling that is radical. And that's how you don't wound your child. That's how you don't wound your daughter, right? You are building in that responsibility, that accountability of I was really acting out of pocket. um I was acting really, you know, that wasn't sitting, you know, that doesn't sit right with me. That's not who I am as a person. That's not who I am as a a mother, a daughter, a woman, a friend. um You know, let me let me go back, right? A lot of relationship repair is going back. um Well, and I would add to that too.
00:58:53
Speaker
um i don't I don't know the story of the person who asked this, but I know I hear this a lot of people, of of women who are really becoming aware of of their own mother-daughter wound, and then they have a daughter, and so they know how painful it can be, so they are terrified of ever hurting their child, right? Like, I think this is coming from a good place of like, how do I make sure that I don't do that? But with that, that doesn't mean that you parent from fear. Right.
00:59:21
Speaker
because if you are asking yourself to never hurt your children, that is impossible. And I like what you said earlier, like a relationship is supposed to be tested. Like there is not going to be a relationship where nobody's feelings gets hurt. Everybody always has a good day. Everybody is always in control of their emotions and their are reactions. And they always feel like they handled everything perfectly. Like that's just not going to happen. I would say that when there's a difference in saying like, wounding your children versus showing them that you're human.
00:59:53
Speaker
And so I like what you said, of be willing to apologize, be willing to say, I'm not proud of how the way that I yelled at you earlier. I'm going to try to work on that, but I'm human and can you forgive me? And then it also goes the other way around is that um with that, like teaching your kids how to do the same thing when they hurt other people so that the, so that repair is a very normal part of a relationship.
01:00:19
Speaker
I think a lot of people are aiming for no rupture and instead it's more about like how do you get your kids really comfortable with people saying they're sorry when they do things that they're not proud of and when they hurt other people. Like yes, there are still limits within that. I'm not saying that you can do whatever to your kids and as long as you apologize that you haven't hurt, you haven't wounded them. But I think a lot of people are just so afraid of if they make one small mistake with their kids that it's gonna cause this huge rupture and wound in the relationship. And that's not necessarily true. It just takes like being human and how many of us would, how much would be so different for so many of us if we had ever just heard a parent say like, I shouldn't have said that. And I'm sorry. And I want to, I want to do better. You know? Yep. Yeah. You summed it up perfectly.
01:01:14
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think that I would leave on a note of saying that all of this is complicated. Um, it's complicated because people are complicated. So of course relationships are going to be, but if you're someone who is recognizing that you have these ones and you're thinking about doing either your own work or trying to do some kind of family therapy, the fact that it's even on your mind means that there is a desire to have a better relationship. And that's always like a good place to start. So wherever you are now, like that's just a good place to start.
01:01:45
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Would you have any final words for anybody today? Maybe that's listening that's like, yep, that's me. I've relate to a lot of that. Um, any ah words of wisdom for him today?
01:01:59
Speaker
I would say in recognizing, right? Mother, daughter hurt, right? Some people may not identify with a wound, right? Like, Oh, like a wound is too much, but right. Hurt, damage, any kind of,
01:02:12
Speaker
you know feeling lack of consideration, neglect, or otherwise unavailability, realize that you've now come to the point that it is now your responsibility to work on yourself despite these things. It is your job to heal, period.
01:02:29
Speaker
I love it. Yeah. Monique, thank you so much for being here today. Before we hop off, I want to give you a chance to tell people where to find you. And then I think you also have some cool stuff coming out on YouTube. Yes. Tell them that really quickly. Okay, so you can follow me on Instagram at therapy with Mo. I am accepting new clients, individuals, couples and family therapy. I'm licensed. I'm a licensed clinical social worker in New York, also licensed in Connecticut.
01:02:58
Speaker
Um, Julie, I know you're down in youre ah Atlanta, Georgia. yeah Um, I also accept select insurances via headway. And, um, yes, I actually recorded a YouTube conversation, um, with a friend of mine and it's on YouTube. So if you type in undoing toxic, um, you can type in my name, Monique Evans, it'll come up and I can also send you.
01:03:24
Speaker
the the link as well. So say the notes for today's episode so people could just click on it from the episode. Okay, sure. Um, yeah, so it's also like a brief ish, uh, about an hour, less than an hour conversation where i I jump in and a little bit more detail. Um, and yeah, so that's where, that's where you can find me Instagram. I have that conversation. It's a project that I actually did call years of silence. Um, so check it out.
01:03:53
Speaker
And um yeah, I just want to say thank you so much. I love today's podcast recording and conversation. And I i hope i hope that this definitely resonates and helps some people out there. So thank you.
01:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, so definitely go check out her information on YouTube. I feel like this is such good resources for anybody that's learning more about this and it's just such a ah good conversation to have. So um thank you again. That's all we have today. I hope everyone enjoyed this episode and we will talk to you next week. Bye.
01:04:30
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of outside of session. Remember while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the suicide and crisis lifeline.