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The Sexual Mask Replayed - The Mask of Masculinity
35 Plays1 month ago
We’re approaching one full year of the Books Brothers Podcast! As we prepare for the next book, we look back at some of the highlight discussions from the past year. Today’s episode is all the way back from season 1, The Mask of Masculinity by Lewis Howes. Revisit the guys’ discussion on “The Sexual Mask” chapter from the book.
Intro and chapter reading recap (1:38 - 4:31)
“The Sexual Mask” discussion (4:32 - 51:24)
- What was your viewpoint of Neil Strauss’ story? How did you perceive him and the purpose that his book set out to accomplish? (4:32 - 22:02)
- How have we been a sounding board with each other to talk about our struggles with the sexual mask? How have our relationships helped heal both ourselves and others? (22:07 - 42:31)
- What are some freedoms we have experienced from removing the sexual mask? (42:31 - 51:24)
Our next book is Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield. You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
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See you next time! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Anniversary and New Beginnings
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, this is Garrett. We are approaching one full year of the Books Brothers podcast. As we begin reading and recording our next book, Gates of Fire, for season six, we thought we'd replay a couple notable episodes from this past year. This week's is the sexual mask episode all the way back from season one when we read The Mask of Masculinity by Lewis Howes. You can find all our Mask of Masculinity chapter discussion episodes wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:00:29
Speaker
This was a great book to read to kick off the podcast and we hope you enjoy revisiting the sexual mask conversation with us.
The Candy Corn Debate
00:01:38
Speaker
All right, question for you guys. True or false? Candy corn is good. Ooh, that's false. I'm sorry. Aren't you a big candy corn fan, Matt? I am. that's Candy corn, the people. just I feel like most people like don't like it. I don't know. The same people who like candy corn during Halloween like peeps during Easter.
00:02:05
Speaker
Sorry, man. And black licorice. Those people just are in their own category. I'm a no-go on a candy board. Not black licorice. I like the candy pumpkins. Why not black licorice? You like red licorice? I don't really like red licorice either. You got something against it? I have something against both. Well then, you're fine then. You're fine as long as you hate both.
00:02:30
Speaker
There's no prejudice there. That's okay. I'm not going to answer that question though.
00:02:36
Speaker
and I'll set myself up. Welcome back to the Books Brothers podcast.
Sexual Mask Insights
00:02:40
Speaker
This week, we will be unpacking the sexual mask where we'll explore and digest the impacts that sex, intimacy, and pornography have on men and how man's association to sex in a secular sense is only setting men up for failure in terms of true lasting happiness, selfless relationships, and self-love.
00:03:00
Speaker
The chapter is really built around a prominent character, author Neil Strauss, who wrote The Game, penetrating the secret society of pickup artists. Author Lewis House shares the rise and downfall of Neil's story, how he came to earn the title of the world's best pickup artist, and the ultimate negative impacts that chasing sex had on his life.
00:03:23
Speaker
In the first pages of the chapter, we learn about Neil's past, how he toured with Motley Crue, only to not receive a single kiss while on tour, being a virgin to where he wrote the mentioned book on how to pick up and seduce women, and how he began his escapades of sleepless nights of sex.
Neil Strauss's Story
00:03:41
Speaker
On page 86, House quotes, he was not just a man, he was the man. He became a rock star without even having to pick up the guitar.
00:03:51
Speaker
As the beginning of the chapter unfolds, Neil finds that his lifestyle is a never-ending trophy hunt that only left him feeling empty, that his sexual conquests would never satisfy him and how he needed to make a change for the better.
00:04:05
Speaker
On page 87, House shares a conversation with his transformational coach around how every young boy comes to associate masculinity with issues of sexual conquest. He shares that we learn how to be a man by one, using a woman to gratify some kind of physical need, or two, to use her to validate some kind of masculine insecurity. How that certainly doesn't make you a man, but a user of other human beings.
Reflecting on Masculinity
00:04:32
Speaker
So the first question is, after reading Neil's story, what was your viewpoint of him? How did you perceive him and the purpose that his book set out to accomplish? And then we'll obviously get into it as his story unfolds, but maybe we save this question for later, but did your viewpoint of him change as the chapter progressed? So first, what was your viewpoint viewpoint of him? And then how did you perceive him and the purpose of the book and what it was set out to accomplish? So my viewpoint of him during this story, I had never heard of him before this chapter. And my first impression was good for you, man.
00:05:17
Speaker
You did what you set out to do. So you became very successful in doing it. Good job. That's not what I want to do. I don't want to live my life like that. I think if you asked me that question 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I would have been like, Oh my gosh, this is the man. He knows how to get women. And I want to know how to get women.
00:05:38
Speaker
being a middle schooler, high schooler, full of hormones, I would have been like, yeah, I i kind of want to do that, but maybe not to that extent. But I wouldn't have told anyone about it also. You know, as ah as a Christian growing up in a Christian household also with Christian beliefs, like I want to try to stay pure, but secretly, I think deep down, I would have wanted to at least try to do something like that. But right now, no, it just sounds exhausting, to be honest, like having to keep up all those superficial relationships and not have any real connection. Sounds extremely lonely. And sure, maybe it was fun for a little bit, but how does that impact the future?
00:06:32
Speaker
and the rest of your life and your connections with people, how other people view you, people probably don't want to really know you for who you are, especially women. But yeah, I don't know. That was my first impression. I like that, Matt. Super honest. yeahre Because you're right, growing up as a Christian, it is hard to be as honest as you just were about, hey, I really feel like I want this, but I'm not going to talk about it. Or I feel like I have these urges or these hormones, but If I talk about it, I'm automatically wrong, so I'll just hide that, right? It's like the difference between repression and the healthy thing, which would be to acknowledge and give up those those feelings in a healthy way to somebody you trust, right?
Sexual Curiosity and Morality
00:07:18
Speaker
Right.
00:07:20
Speaker
find Find an outlet right and that I will I'll admit that's something I was never able to really grasp growing up um but when I heard about Neil's story, I was honestly kind of relieved because growing up I was kind of like I was kind of like you, Matt, like I was always kind of curious and wanted to get involved with girls, not just sexually, of course, but just in general, but I was always too shy. Like I had moved around schools a little bit growing up. So by the time I was in like middle school, junior high and all that sort of those feelings started to happen. I was not the cool kid in school. I didn't have a friend group. I had just moved. So I was like,
00:08:03
Speaker
I'm lucky if I get some friends that are dudes before I can even try to ask a girl out or something. you know So I guess for me, I was relieved because he goes through this whole this whole experience where he has sex with all these women. He's a pickup artist and he has all these, like you said, relationships. I'm doing air quotes.
00:08:24
Speaker
um And he realized that's not gonna make him happy. It just ended in him regretting a lot of things. And so like, I guess growing up, because I never had the courage to to really be one of those guys who pursued women, I always thought maybe I was missing out, you know? Because there's these two sides, there's like the moral side and the like religious side that I experienced, which was like, I mean, if taken to this to the extreme, it's like,
00:08:56
Speaker
any feelings you have about sexuality feel wrong, you know? And then there's, you know, so stay away from it as much as you can. And then there's like the other side, which is the popular culture side, which as kids were probably more Well, depending on our families, I guess, and our upbringing, the popular culture side is what we experience probably more often. And that's if you kiss a lot of girls, you know, have girlfriends, have girls falling all over, you're the you're the man. And so, like, growing up for me, walking that line was
00:09:30
Speaker
I don't know, it felt kind of impossible. So I guess for me, I just kind of took myself out of the out of the whole game, you know? Yeah, I guess I would just say I was relieved to hear that at the end of the day, none of those things that I had thought I was missing out on growing up were actually anything to miss out on. So I was like, it it kind of justified the way I the way I chose to act growing up, you know, but I felt sorry for the guy, you know, he he obviously didn't have any good ah male role models to show him how to treat women or like how to think about his sexuality. So I feel bad for him. Yeah, I think when this chapter started, maybe kind of a separate take, I was a little i was a little bit discouraged. I was like, oh, we're going to have a chapter about the the sexuality mask. And here he's talking about you know ah someone who's had all these sexual conquests.
00:10:22
Speaker
And even Lewis's quote, talking about how he's the man that Rob had referenced earlier, I was really disappointed because I was like, i this is not, you know, to me, this isn't in my initial thought in the reading. I'm like, is Lewis going to be arguing that that this guy has it together? But I think as the chapter progressed, you saw that. No, that's not necessarily the case. And but as both Matt and Thomas, both of you guys mentioned, it's interesting to say that when you were young, yeah, you you were like, oh, wow, maybe this guy's on to something or maybe you looked up to another older male who was good with talking to women or dated a lot of women. But you both mentioned as you matured, as you become more of an adult, more of a man, you stepped into those roles, you see how
00:11:05
Speaker
really the way that someone like this views women or uses women, it's it's really sad. And it's really ah an awful part of our culture that there is such objectification of women. And yeah, that someone like this would be viewed highly, that he'd be respected. And obviously in his story, there's some lessons to be learned. um It takes a little while for us to see those lessons, but um ultimately, ah initially when when we were reading this chapter, I was thinking,
00:11:34
Speaker
Wow, this this is an interesting person to choose to talk about this topic, but I think over time it kind of makes sense because this individual kind of externally maybe has what other men would desire that he can get with whatever woman he he wants, but then you really see deep down the depravity in that, the sadness in that, and then even as it goes on that he you know when he's in his future relationship he. I think it mentions later on that he cheated on his um as partner and so yeah to me that's a direct correlation to his prior choices.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost like comical. Some of these stories so far that he's getting into that he almost uses his interview subjects as like he tears them down a little bit. yeah And you almost are curious of like the guys that are like, yeah, I'll sign up. I'll be interviewed for your book. And then it gets published. And he's like, damn, like it's kind of breaking me down. Um, But this one definitely has a redemption story. I mean, we'll get into it here because I have it as part of kind of my summary still. But with the with the chapter and just with him, I mean, I felt slimy like during it. And I think still and you were kind of hitting on that piece just.
00:12:51
Speaker
I felt like this guy, the way that he was living his life, like you couldn't trust him. If you were a girl and you were around him, like you couldn't go out and just be you for a night. Cause you're going to have this slime ball all over you trying to pick you up. And I don't know. That was the feeling that I got.
00:13:10
Speaker
I just I know yeah I shared with you guys recently but like I just gave a talk to like high schoolers about dating and vocation and and marriage and um had a selfless date versus selfish dating and objectification and use and so like just to know, right? That there's a guy out there who's written a book that directly like teaches you how to get women. Like it's discouraging that there were, there are, I don't know if he still has it out on shelves or what that, um, that that sort of resource would be out there. It kind of reminds me of Chris Wolf's like good guy swag book that he came out and it's like just thinking about the, at the opposite of like somebody who's good, who teaches you how to treat a woman.
00:13:57
Speaker
to actually you you know keep a woman and not just pick her up and dispose of her. um It's just really encouraging to see the opposite, which is really the reality of how to be a man.
00:14:11
Speaker
It reminded me too of ah Barney from how I met your mother. and yeah If y'all have watched Barney, Barney's characters like in that show essentially feels like satire. I think especially with Constraint with the actor who's playing him. um yeah but That's exactly what I was thinking of as we're reading this. yeah Garrett, what about you, man?
00:14:32
Speaker
ah yeah don't I don't know if ive I feel like you all covered most things. I mean, I definitely relate with Matt's point about kind of deep down. You know, I knew what to say on the surface, but deep down, you know, I always wondered and I was thinking of a line. um It's more, it's more of like kind of on the, on the spiritual side, but something that like one of Brooke's mentors shared with her when we were engaged in getting married and she said something like,
00:15:01
Speaker
The Lord saved me from a life I'll never have to know. And I think sometimes there's like that curiosity, right? growth You know, junior high, high school, college, whatever, of like, am I making the right decisions? Like, is is Neil Strauss's story, is that actually like, but am I missing out? And, you know, you you hear these testimonials and you You know what the truth is, but sometimes it's hard to but believe it. And so, yeah, someone I think he I think the author shared his story because that was the idea. Neil encapsulates embodies the thoughts or quote unquote dreams of like, you know, growing up and having all these conquests and that guys have. And then it's like, no, these are actually, you know, nightmares and um
00:15:53
Speaker
I think he used new story because it like checked every box of that sea or whatever it was his reality and yeah it was the most and sad you know position he found himself in and that the grass isn't always greener the.
00:16:12
Speaker
I don't know. I know I'm having a lot of pauses in my comments, but it's a, it's vulnerable stuff. Think about what to say. You know what I mean? Yeah, it is for sure. Those are, those are just some thoughts right now. So reading this chapter.
00:16:27
Speaker
brought up a lot of memories from college, freshman year in particular, and a couple of you guys have hit on it already. But I remember a couple months into college, I, well, beginning of college, I was just like thinking, I'm free. I can just do whatever I want. There's a lot of girls around to try to get to know. And I definitely gave in to some of those desires, but I never actually slept with any of them. I did.
00:16:56
Speaker
other things that I'm not proud of because I was just using those women being a user of people. But I remember specifically there was This one girl that I thought was attractive after a couple months of college and after I hooked up with several other women at the time. And she like wasn't interested in me at all, at all. And I was like, why? All these other women have done it. Why not you? And she's like, it's because you've been with these other women that I don't want to do anything with you.
00:17:33
Speaker
And I still remember that because, like, deeper down, I wanted to be a good person and someone who is capable of having a lasting, real relationship with a woman.
College Realizations
00:17:49
Speaker
And after she said that, I was like, oh, my gosh, who have I actually become? Like, is this what people think of me, that I'm just using women?
00:18:01
Speaker
And I really did not want that to be my image. And I'm really glad she said it to me because I think that kind of changed my mindset. yeah I didn't want to be seen as someone who just uses people, uses women. I wanted to be someone who people could trust and have a long lasting relationship in future marriage that lasts.
00:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, i I was going to say, Matt, just for context, we all went to college in Springfield, Missouri in the middle of the Bible Belt. And obviously, a lot of different people grew up with a different expectation or view of sexuality. And some people grew up thinking they wanted to be sexually pure for moral or religious reasons.
00:18:53
Speaker
And I think other people grew up thinking, well, if I'm willing to have sex with her and she wants to have sex with me, what's the problem? Right. And this guy's story is kind of at the heart of that, you know, like religious beliefs aside, I think it's encouraging to know, like, no matter what your position is, belief wise,
00:19:18
Speaker
this is just like overindulgence in anything else that produces pleasure, right? Because on the other side of that overindulgence is pain. And to some extent, you know, I feel like yeah in life, there's like this, this seesaw kind of, and you can't have too much of one side without it coming back and evening you out eventually.
00:19:42
Speaker
um And i feel I feel like with any with any like pleasurable experience or activity, you can find this to be true. you know i mean Even something as stupid as using your cell phone or being on social media too much, like eventually you get depressed and they've proven that.
00:20:00
Speaker
yeah So, I mean, it's just like, you know, no matter what your perspective is, I think it's like, Rob, I don't know what what the feedback was from high schoolers, you know, when you talk with them. But I do wonder these days because, I mean, 10, 15 years ago when we were in high school, I feel like there were so many less opportunities to get involved in a way that was like,
00:20:27
Speaker
I don't know, I guess I feel like we were we were kind of like eased into this whole thing a little bit slower than kids these days are. And I know that's a tangent, but it just makes me makes me grateful for to have grown up in a time where, you know, high school, we didn't have Instagram and Facebook yet, really, you know, like all that stuff was coming. But Like we were sending Snapchat's to each other and getting Snapchat's that disappeared and got passed around school and like all that kind of stuff is just like foreign to me. um And I mean, as a, as a young man, I can just imagine that being really hard to navigate right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
00:21:14
Speaker
If you're like me, you may not see that well out of one eye. I have trouble seeing things in my peripherals with one eye, particularly when it's up or down. Or maybe people think you're a bad driver. Some people think you're a good driver. It's probably 50-50, because you overanalyze and envision mathematical problems in your mind.
00:21:32
Speaker
If you're like me, then you're half Chinese and there is hope. We have the same, but different, but still same. If you love chopsticks, but also want to fork sometimes, or if people mistake you for a Mexican and start speaking Spanish to you, come join our banana club and we can get through it together. The banana club, yellow on the outside, white on the inside. That's so good. The banana club. You're at it, banana club. I love it.
00:21:59
Speaker
but
00:22:04
Speaker
let's ah Let's segue in because I know we've we've kind of already hit on some of these things. So obviously there's a silver lining and in Neil's story. So let's just pick it up there. So as the chapter continues, we see how Neil's life unfolds, how he suffers after not only living his sex-filled life,
00:22:22
Speaker
but to where he ultimately turns it around only to cheat on his committed girlfriend, thus experiencing greater suffering. He hits rock bottom as he describes, and he needed to be honest with himself on how he was going to change, how he wanted to be free and liberated from his addiction. He quoted on page 93, you are more likely to fit in with other guys if you put those issues to the side and talk about your sexual conquests instead.
00:22:48
Speaker
If you want to talk about feelings or love or whether your sex life is a really positive experience for everyone involved, forget about fitting in. He goes on to say how guys feel feminine if they talk about their struggles and how there is darkness out there in a lot of guys, especially as it pertains to the effects of pornography at such a young age. He goes on to quote, if you watch porn these days, it is disproportionately aggressive how guys feel more like a man if you are dominating and how men
00:23:19
Speaker
have become warped by this domination because young boys as early as age 9 or 10 who have never even kissed a girl are being exposed to sex in this context as it is being their first data point of sex. How porn is creating messed up men. So first point of question share if comfortable how we have all been a sounding board as men and brothers to talk about our struggles with the sexual mask.
Impact of Pornography
00:23:49
Speaker
How have our relationships helped heal not only ourselves, but others? i I'll lead off with this one here. So I think as he gets into like the topic of pornography and how it affects men and that kind of thing, there's really interesting research that shows how pornography has really skewed, up like really messed up people's intimacy lives, how it's caused a lot more problems with intimacy, it's caused a lot lot of like sexual issues within the bedroom um with partners and such. And so it's not only that pornography is objectifying to humans,
00:24:21
Speaker
But it also then as a result then causes more issues when it comes to intimacy with your your real partner. Because pornography is it's fake. It's a fantasy that's been created. It's it's truly it's entertainment. And you know as we all in this group, I would say no, that you know ah sexuality or sexual intimacy with the with your spouse, with your partner, it's something that it's real. you know It's something that a lot of the fantasy that's made up in pornography ah it teaches a very false narrative. As he mentions here talking about the domination component, um you know in a real sexual relationship, you know for it to be successful there has to be give and take, there has to be really good communication.
00:25:03
Speaker
And hey I just want to clarify, it's not actually entertainment. It's a forbidden fruit that people are putting out there that is distorting men's view of what real intimacy is. it's oh It's created in an effort to entertain, but it's destructive. When I use the term entertainment, it's more to talk about where it it's not real. It's fake. it's it's as a It's a falsehood. It's a lie that we um so we tell ourselves.
00:25:35
Speaker
And yeah, so obviously there's a lot of destruction that comes from it. And I know as I've shared my experiences and in this area of life, I've found it's very helpful having ah having a brotherhood, a group of guys to be a sounding board when it comes to some of your failures in life. And this is something that as men, we all deal with individually.
00:25:55
Speaker
And yet nobody talks about it or the majority people don't talk about it and it's something that's a very high percentage of men are are engaged in involvements activity. There's silence about it and it causes a lot of shame it causes a lot of guilt and it messes ourselves up with our relationships and it's something that.
00:26:13
Speaker
as I've been open with this with other men, other friends, I found, as you mentioned, Rob, there's a lot lot of healing, there's a lot of growth that comes from a place of being genuine and being authentic with those in your life and really learning that the way out of that the cycle of shame that that that it can cause is by having these these conversations with other guys. I think you hit the nail on the head with the shame part. I honestly am more convinced that the shame from this kind of stuff creates, it's kind of the source of the the intimacy issues, the you know secrecy, the low self-esteem a lot of guys deal with growing up. Porn really just multiplies that for guys that don't have real life relationships or or are kind of using porn to sort of, just like Neil did, to sort of paper over a lot of their masculine insecurities.
00:27:11
Speaker
And i think I think it's really a perfect cure for that or at least a perfect quick fix for that until you realize it's like the most horrible a path you can go down. like I feel like for a lot of guys, they find it at a young age, they never asked for it. And they think, oh, this is this is an easy way to take care of these feelings that I don't know what to do with or these urges that I don't know what to do with.
00:27:34
Speaker
And it you know it's it's such a potent not even you know like you were talking about behavior stalin but it's like the chemical cocktail that it releases in your brain. um It's not something that we really evolved to deal with as men you know like.
00:27:53
Speaker
200 years ago, the closest thing to any of this was, okay, you live in a small town and you maybe see like 50 women, the first 20 years of your life, you know, half of them are probably old anyway. So it's like, imagine going from that a couple generations ago to high speed internet porn. It's just like, you're at a disadvantage so hard growing up in our society, you know? So I guess one of the things that I just want to suggest is like,
00:28:21
Speaker
If you're struggling with that stuff, maybe take a step back, see the bigger picture and realize like, man, the fact that I got into that really isn't my fault first and foremost. But now that I know the consequences, it's my fault if I continue to let it kind of happen to me instead of trying to deal with it in my life, you know, and I think that's a big thing is forgiving yourself, getting rid of that shame and talking to other people about it.
00:28:48
Speaker
That's huge yeah yeah yeah when i first moved to kansas city i got involved in a band of brothers group so it was originally led by a guy that was like five six years older than me and then i ultimately ended up leading the group but,
00:29:04
Speaker
One of the things that we did every week was it was called p p bra and it basically was an acronym that stood for prayer purity brotherhood relationships order and tithing so we basically like talk about all of those things each guy like we sat in a room and we basically hit on like how well are we doing in our prayer life how well are we doing in purity,
00:29:27
Speaker
our relationships yada yada and one of the big things that we always talked about and it was good just because it was a safe space of vulnerable space for guys to be able to share about purity and every guy pretty much was struggling.
00:29:42
Speaker
um in that area you know there would be highs and lows in other areas but it was pretty consistently low that every guy was struggling in that area and um you know as somebody that has dealt with that and in my life but also been victorious for that for years like it was awesome to be able to.
00:30:04
Speaker
work with some of these younger guys around um just really hating the sin and wanting to, yes, work past the shame components, work past all the things that basically got them enthralled into it. but and basically to be ah be there to provide hope um and provide resources and provide talks. um And it's awesome when you get to see somebody come out of um a very dark hole that they've been in for decades, guys. I mean, decades long of of an addiction. um And it's beautiful to watch people come ah come out of that and to be a
Community and Brotherhood
00:30:42
Speaker
part of that. And so I would encourage anybody
00:30:46
Speaker
that's currently dealing with that to seek resources and and seek your your brothers to help you get out of that. And really just to further, like, you know, Rob, what you talk about with that is really that community component. And when it comes to purity issues and being involved in, you know, sexual activities that you really don't want to be involved with, no one really does get out of it alone. I feel like it always takes a community of of other men to be able to work through that kind of stuff with.
00:31:17
Speaker
Do you think our culture is, is such that it actually makes these things harder to talk about or deal with because we have this weird dichotomy of like, let's thrust sex into everybody's face at all times, but let's never actually talk about the realities of it. I feel like yeah yeah i think that States has like a really unique culture like that, that a lot of other countries maybe maybe don't have as much.
00:31:41
Speaker
i I think, you know, quoting that page 93 that Rob mentioned the, you're more likely to fit in. If you put your concerns or issues to the side and just talk about your conquests and try to normalize it, try to not make it a problem. Um, everything's okay. I was, I looked up, um, going all the way back to the preface where he references that documentary, the mask you live in. It's been several years, but I've seen it and it was really impactful. I don't know if I've shared this story before.
00:32:11
Speaker
But from them the video or from the documentary i recall. He had a group i think they were teenage boys and there was like a is probably get similar scenario to what rob did so it would be like what are like rob.
00:32:24
Speaker
and getting in like just with a group of boys and they like answered some questions on a piece of paper but like didn't write their name on it. And the questions were, like I feel really lonely or I feel really like scared to have sex or I struggle with porn or whatever it was, but it was like very vulnerable things that are directly identified in this chapter. Like put those to the side, just talk about your conquest. Cause then you'll fit in, you'll be cool. So they all crumpled up the papers, like after they answered the questions, threw them in the middle of the circle, the leader like scrambled them up, handed out the papers to everyone. They opened it up and then you would answer the question, but like it wasn't your answer. It was you're reading someone else's paper, right? So there wasn't like the shame component to it. So it was like,
00:33:16
Speaker
Who like raise your hand if you feel alone and depressed and you would raise your hand if the answer was yes on the piece of paper. So someone else and it was like and almost everyone raised their hand. Well, and it just illustrated and that was the leaders point. ah Like guys, we all struggle with this. We're all going through this. Well, why don't we talk about it? Why don't we talk about it and um I think that, I think it's the double
Societal Pressures and Shame
00:33:42
Speaker
whammy. Like we, we experience it, right? We'll, we'll cross over that fence, whether it's the first couple of months of college, whether it's in high school or, um, you know, dating, whatever it is. And we'll have a very unfulfilling experience or there'll be a really big high. And then the next day, a lot of shame and guilt, but we can't talk about it. So let's just talk about the conquest and, um,
00:34:08
Speaker
you know, whether it's the fraternity on Sundays, the time at the end where, you know, you like call out the guys who did something cool or just like those things like would get brought up and like applauded, you know what I mean? um But then and deep down, we kind of know the truth, but then we don't talk about it because then we wouldn't fit in and we wouldn't be we wouldn't be a bro, right? And you've got to be a bro.
00:34:30
Speaker
I want to say a couple things to that point. You said like doing the right thing. I think that's probably my story. There were definitely some failures, things I'm not proud of from high school and college in general. Like I would kind of put on a good front, but deep down, I would have very ulterior motives and it was all to boost my own ego because I had a very fragile identity.
00:34:58
Speaker
I think we all can relate to that. Yeah, where it's like, oh, shoot, this girl likes me, that girl likes me. And so I feel better about myself. um And so there's some element where it's like, sure, I may have not committed certain acts or I may have never had sex before I was married or something like that. But, you know, I was not. I wasn't viewing those girls or those women in my mind properly, whether it was viewing them as objects or um
00:35:30
Speaker
having ulterior motives as I was being friendly. I wanted to see if they would like me back. you know That that's ah stuff's you know very real. And so it's like, is that really any better you know in certain regards? Um, doing people that way. And then the other thing I'll say, uh, I'm not trying to segue us into the last set of questions. This stuff like doesn't end when you get married. Everyone. Yeah. Everyone here is married, but like, what I mean is it's not like the, not necessarily like the porn thing or like, all right, like the gates have been.
00:36:01
Speaker
Flown open, I think a lot of it like the the mask is put on in like a different way where it's like, OK, now I'm married. I should do this or that or have this experience or have that experience. And it's like the the struggle kind of.
00:36:18
Speaker
flips on its head where there's like a similar struggle, but it might be in a different way. And I'm i'm legitimately sharing a story of a friend. I'm not like subtly saying like, this this is not subtly me. Although I can definitely identify and have very similar experiences. But I remember a friend and I, we did have these, we were able to talk about these kind of vulnerable things. And he was just taught, we were like, I was like, how how's your marriage going? He was talking about how one of his friends had just got married and he's like, Oh man, like he's talking about his friend. We're having sex like three times a week. And he commented, Oh my goodness. I'm lucky if I have three sex three times a month or something like that. And I just like remember just comparing myself to both of those guys are like,
00:37:10
Speaker
Oh, okay. i'm I'm like not alone in this sense. Oh, okay. It's not just me or oh man. I'm like, okay, I'm I'm that's you know, okay, not someone's in a worse place than me or you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, it's like why why is that on the other side of being married defining?
00:37:27
Speaker
my, my manhood. You know
Marriage and Objectification
00:37:29
Speaker
what I mean? You know what I'm saying? I think those guys don't talk about it as much. It's easier to like, uh, cut catastrophize when you compare yourself to other men, because you have such a scattered frame of reference. Like you don't have many data points. So you're just automatically always like, Oh man, sexually, I'm just like on this low end of the spectrum compared to all my peers, you know what I mean? So I think comparison in that way is a really big issue with guys. I think you're right.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah, and so you might be married, you might not have the guilt in one sense, because you have that freedom now with someone you're committed to, but there still is that struggle to objectify your wife or to view her in incorrect ways where you're using her to again, boost your ego um or to feel good about yourself or whatever. And it's not self-sacrificing anything like that. So I don't know.
00:38:27
Speaker
I mean, let me ask you, does, can you all relate with any of that or am I alone in that regard? I had expectations before, I guess, you know, before getting married, you have certain expectations about what your sex life will be like. And I think that a lot of guys struggle with that. I think a lot of guys get angry because they had expected it one thing and then they realize like it takes a lot more work.
00:38:51
Speaker
and the intimacy is something that maybe they're not familiar with or they don't want to work hard at um because they're just excited about the physical aspects. and I think that's a pretty common struggle that I've heard at least a few people talk about. Yeah, I know i mean i know is like marriage has gone on longer for us. um you know Rob, you talked I think last week about the task list and like the tasks.
00:39:17
Speaker
And I think sometimes to me, I can go in and out of like, I do this, and I do this, and I do this. And so I think sex sometimes becomes like, all right, now it's like time that we have sex or somebody have intimacy. And I sometimes view it ah separate from the other things. And what what I mean by that is, um you know, I think, you know, there's like the famous quote, that like sex starts in the the kitchen, right? And so it's like, how are you treating your spouse? How are you, you know, are you loving and adoring them and building them up, like constantly that they're wanting to. So I guess, like, as it relates to what you're saying, Garrett, I think maybe the expectations being off or
00:40:03
Speaker
again, viewing sexuality even within like the confines of marriage is like more of a selfish thing. And I think that's where, as men, I think I can relate to having having struggled. But yeah, the the concern of object objectification and being viewing sexuality as selfish is a real thing. And I mean, that's something that you definitely i have to continue to work at and foster intimacy within a relationship.
00:40:32
Speaker
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00:41:03
Speaker
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00:41:24
Speaker
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Removing the Sexual Mask
00:41:35
Speaker
What this like final section is really all about, it's not necessarily that we're freed when we take off the sexual mask, um like forever, but it's like by taking off the sexual mask, like we can create the greatest relationships for the richest intimacy, right? And how this talks about how when the sexual mask is removed,
00:41:58
Speaker
men can't hide anymore and they are forced to see the real them. um And through that, they are able to love themselves more, fully deem themselves more worthy and have greater peace and freedom for their future spouses. So I think that just kind of sums up that like, hey, by taking off the sexual mask, like we're just able to be more honest with our spouse, like, or ourselves, right? Whether we're married or not. Or with our friends. Right. And with our friends.
00:42:25
Speaker
And through that, that just allows like, rather than, you know, I think, you know, one of the questions was what are some of the freedoms that you have experienced by taking off the sexual mask? Like for me, locker room talk, like, I know we're saying some jokes and stuff, and and yeah, it's all fun and games, but like, there's some legit locker room talk um with guys that guys that you know, guys at work, whatever, right? They want to make comments about you know, women and and all this stuff. And like, I don't participate in that. Like you probably see that like I get pretty, I'm like pretty more reserved, um where maybe in the past I'm more
00:43:07
Speaker
I was more open to make those jokes um or participate in them, if if you will. But like now that I'm a leader in like the church and the youth, and like it's just not a part of my identity anymore because I've taken that sort of mask off. um you know you're you're able to you're just able to You're able to not be a part of the the cycle. you know like You can stop the cycle by not participating in it.
00:43:39
Speaker
I mean, I think it is really it is really unfortunate too that there is such a societal difference because we're obviously and into entering this era where some of this this form of masculinity is really being discouraged, but yet you still see this playing out a lot in society where where men are really objectifying women or they're um they're speaking of their, you know, their conquests and such. But yeah, it's something that, you know, when you really take a look back at it and, you know, deep down when when guys do have kind of this little more locker room cell talk or they're bragging about their their experiences and stuff like what's the reason? Like, you know, obviously the thought is like impressed, but like when you really dig back the layers on that, it's kind of a kind of a weird area to try to impress someone in.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think i mean especially whenever you've had like a very close intimate relationship with with your partner and you see how minimizing you know sexual activity to such a transaction is really unfortunate and it's really sad that that happens so often these days.
Challenging Objectification
00:44:43
Speaker
Right. What what I don't get is how I mean, my old boss, he was, he was a slime bag. Um, and he was a married man and he would talk about women like he was a single 20, 21 year old. Um, that's pretty common. and I mean, I i experienced that.
00:45:06
Speaker
And how sad is that though, right? So that's what I'm talking about in terms of like, how do we stop the cycle? How do we, if somebody's trying to tell you something like that or referring to someone like that, like, how do you say, or when are you going to be a man and say, Hey man, that's not, that's not respectful. I don't find that funny. Like I've said that to people and I think people are so caught off guard that they've never really had somebody say that to them.
00:45:33
Speaker
um because typically people are playing along with it or they agree with it. And so the first time somebody says something like that to to them, I think it's a good opportunity for for people to call out other men higher, um to elevate their game, to be real men and not ah little boys with sexual masks on.
00:45:57
Speaker
That is a hard line to walk, right? Especially if you're somewhere like work, where the only time anybody sees someone call anybody out is in the yearly sexual harassment training video, which makes everybody who does that look like a total square.
00:46:15
Speaker
And you don't want to be that guy, right? You don't want to be that's the square, but you do want to be like, Hey, that's not cool. And it, it is hard to like know how to do that in a way that's tactful enough to where people don't lose the ability to like be real with you. You know what I mean?
00:46:33
Speaker
It's a mask that if you poke at, people will shut down and never like want to be honest with you. You know what I mean? like If you shatter someone's mask, they're just like, I don't respect you anymore. I'm not goingnna i'm not even going to talk to you. you know it's it's With guys, it's they're very sensitive about it. So you have to be careful like how you how you point it out, I guess, if you want to continue the conversation in a productive way.
00:47:00
Speaker
I think of like the masks that we've gone through so far, this touch definitely is probably the most sensitive area for for men. and yeah It's really something that you don't see people have deep conversations with. and Whereas a lot of these other areas, people can kind of unpeel some layers some, but I don't feel like um it's an area that the majority of men are able to be open about. The best way to start it, in my opinion, is to talk about something you've been through first.
00:47:28
Speaker
yeah you know yeah if if you If you go first, they'll realize, okay, this guy's being vulnerable, so maybe it's okay for me to be the same way. And it sounds like he's been through the same stuff I have. so yeah And some people will totally make fun of you and just be like,
00:47:47
Speaker
Okay, so what? Yeah. And, you know, you just can't take that personally, you have to be strong enough to realize that this mask is just a mask. And the fact that you're working through your stuff is what's actually masculine, not the fact that you have a past or you have shame. that That doesn't define you as a man. Yeah. Trying to explain it to someone who does not understand how a boy, ah a guy feels with these urges and something that's been a lifelong struggle, I found it was really hard to try to communicate the why behind it. Yeah.
00:48:25
Speaker
And I feel like when when when I talked about it in church, like yeah I had a ah pretty good friend group, but no one really knew how to talk through those things. right And I get you to the next step, get you to the next level. like We didn't have that expertise, that counselor, to walk us through it. We would have our leaders in the church, but Honestly, they would mostly just like point us to biblical verses, which is their job. It's fine, but like I never really resonated with me. Yeah, recent and research shows that this is not ah even though the gospel is a healing message. This is not a way the
00:49:07
Speaker
the way to deal with it i mean it takes that and then some and then more you know and then that more accountability it's yeah too messy people are afraid to deal with it you know leaders and parents yeah it says when you take off that sexual mask that there's freedom, but I would also add there's a lot of pain. yeah oh yeah There can be a lot of pain once you take off that mask. And shame. And shame and guilt. And you need to have people to talk through it. People that have gone through it before, not who are also currently going through it. That helps, but I think you need someone who has gone to that next level, that next step to help you pull you up.
00:49:50
Speaker
to reach down and pull you up with them. Yeah. Just because you're not like actively looking at porn doesn't mean you're freed of the effects of it. I mean, I think they say that it takes like 10 plus years or whatever for you to forget an image that you might remember from like a porn video.
00:50:14
Speaker
And I think that's real. And the proof is in the pudding. The studies are out there. Like this is not ah actually a male problem. Like this women struggle with this too. And this night is pretty particular particularly special because every other Wednesday, Mary Ann leads a group with eight women um that are all over the world, um all over the States. And they're basically talking about their impact, like their recovery from porn.
00:50:44
Speaker
And from masturbation and from purity struggles and so it's beautiful that we on this night October eighteen they're both doing some parallel play of talking through this and fighting the good fight and knowing that you know we want to be a part of.
00:51:03
Speaker
the solution and not a part of the problem. And I think that that that's beautiful. But yeah, the the reality is is that this isn't a male problem at the same time. Women feel those effects of shame and I think it eats at them a lot, a lot deeper than it does for us men.
00:51:47
Speaker
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