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Best of Gates of Fire
26 Plays27 days ago
Listen to some of the highlights of our conversation reading through and discussion Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield.
- Book 1: What does “honor” and “legacy” mean to you, and how do these words influence your actions? (0:30 - 12:43)
- Book 2: What are your thoughts on the value of brotherhood in the development of a Spartan warrior? How does the brotherhood of Spartan culture compare to today? (12:44 - 33:45)
- Book 3: What are you thoughts on Dienekes’ leadership style in Spartan culture - is he an exception or does he embody Spartan culture? What are your thoughts on the quote, “Habit will be your champion”? (33:46 - 46:22)
- Book 4: What was more honorable, Arete lying to keep the baby alive, or remaining silent and the child being killed? (46:23 - 1:13:47)
- Book 5: What is the opposite of fear, and how do you overcome fear? How do you balance the tension between love and duty in your own life? Do you feel the tension between personal desires and responsibilities in your relationships? (1:13:47 - 1:34:24)
- Book 6: What are your thoughts on the interaction between Xeones and Diomache? Do you agree with her perception of the world? What examples of leadership stuck out to you in this book? What character traits are the most important in a leader? (1:34:25 - 1:50:32)
- Book 7: What do you want to be true of yourself and this group of friends that will be passed down and learned from 2,000 years from now? (1:50:33 - 2:04:41)
- Book 8: Which character do you most identify with? Which character do you want to most identify with? The guys share their favorite parts of the book and any final thoughts (2:04:42 - 2:21:38)
- Thomas previous our next book, Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage written by Alfred Lansing. (2:21:39 - 2:23:57)
That wraps up Season 6! Our next book will be Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage by Alfred Lansing.
You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
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Email us at connect@booksbrotherspodcast.com
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Introduction and Announcements
00:00:00
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Books Brothers podcast. Be sure to catch our new episodes every Tuesday morning. With the holidays approaching, would you consider giving us the gift of a five-star review and subscribing to our show? We would really appreciate it.
Discussion on 'Gates of Fire' Highlights
00:00:14
Speaker
Now, we hope you enjoy the highlights of our discussion, Recapping Gates of Fire. For a full recap and discussion, you can listen to all eight episodes which dive into each of the eight parts of the book in greater detail.
00:00:26
Speaker
We hope you and your family have a merry Christmas and happy holiday season.
Weekly Insights and Book Discussions
00:00:53
Speaker
you're a big reader or a small reader, or just enjoy listening in on our discussion, join in as we explore insightful topics and narratives while connecting each week.
00:01:26
Speaker
We hope you join in on our journey. Please do forgive us with this one as we may butcher the names of these characters and places during our discussion.
Exploring Spartan Society and Character Development
00:01:35
Speaker
In the first book of Gates of Fire, titled Xerces, the narrative is set against the backdrop of the ancient Persian empire during the lead up to the pivotal battle of Thermopylae. The story is primarily told through the eyes of a young Spartan warrior named Ziones, who serves as the narrator.
00:01:55
Speaker
Here are several key events and themes that set the stage for the narrative. So, Zione's family tragedy. The story begins with Zione's recounting the brutal attack on his hometown by the Allied archives. This traumatic event leads to the death of his family, which deeply impacts him and motivates his desire to fight.
00:02:16
Speaker
This law shapes his identity and his journey. Survival and capture. After witnessing the destruction, Zione survives and is eventually captured by the Spartans. His narrative explores his feelings of guilt and survival as he grapples with the weight of his family's death and his role in the war.
00:02:35
Speaker
Introduction to Spartan culture. Through Zione's eyes, readers are introduced to Spartan society and its values, including discipline, loyalty, and the warrior ethos. The rigorous training and lifestyle of the Spartans are vividly described, emphasizing their preparation for battle. Finally, training and brotherhood. The bond between warriors is explored through Zione's interaction with other characters such as Bruxis and Diamante.
00:03:03
Speaker
Ruxi's, his parent's slave, exemplifies loyalty and strength while Diamonci, his older cousin, challenges traditional gender roles with her skills as a warrior. Their camaraderie highlights the importance of brotherhood in Spartan culture, preparing them for the upcoming conflict.
Legacy and Personal Reflection
00:03:22
Speaker
All right, so I think there's a lot of components of like legacy, honor, um Within you know the spark spark culture but lately i have been reflecting on the significance of honor and legacy in my own life and how. They influence my actions and in the first book we see how these core ideals impact characters like the owners and tripod. So what do honor and legacy mean to you how do they influence your actions.
00:03:56
Speaker
And I can start if you want because I do have an answer prepared. Garrett, I know I kind of shared with you. I'm kind of on this trying to get deeper into healing journey and what that means in my life. So my wife got me a book, Be Healed. um And it basically just walks you through about try to get to the root of why you might be living the way that you are based on like certain criteria, right? So like,
00:04:23
Speaker
Are they lies that you've been fed? or have it said how How have you been raised? Blah, blah, blah, right? through reading that book, it has been a good revelation for me to look at what are areas of my life that I need healed? How do I look at that? And what does that look like moving forward, right? So if if you take how you were raised or have you guys seen those videos of the glasses where it's like, it has a pink liquid here and it's like, these are your grandparents. And then it has another glass where like, these are your parents. And then it's like, here's you. And then here's your offspring. So it's like,
00:04:59
Speaker
you pour your grandparents pour the trauma to their parents and it stays the same color and then there your parents poured to you and like. You get their color and it's like not changing so it's like are you gonna only pass that on to the next generation are you gonna fill that with water and essentially try and give them not your traumas that were given you passed on right so i've been thinking about that. Is part of like my healing journey right so it's like.
00:05:28
Speaker
what are things that my parents did really well and what are some things that they didn't do really well that I it's somewhat inherited right through them through the parenting styles or whatever and so like what does that look like in terms of rectifying healing within my own heart and life and how that has made me as a person and then how do I work to kind of rewrite the script so that I can make sure like, oh man, those are definitely not the things that I want to pass on to my generation, right? And in order to do that, I have to be one like aware of that.
00:06:04
Speaker
And two, you know, seek healing to try and not pass that on to the next generation. And so I've been doing a lot of that work internally of just one recognizing it and then trying to like consciously focus and yeah, work through those things. And I guess the honor and the legacy component pre having children make me especially want to do that work now.
00:06:29
Speaker
so that I can be ready for when I do have children that I'm not figuring it all out through wounding them in the process. I know I'm going to wound them in the process because I'm human and I'm not going to have it all figured out, but if I can do that less, that would be good. That's really good, Rob. what What's prompted you to kind of start that route if you don't mind sharing?
Personal Growth and Healing
00:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, basically, I got Mary and got me the book and she'd done wonders for her in her life. And it's been sitting on the shelf and we've been burning through books. And that's where, you know, we start in this next chapter in our life, just with the home and hopefully preparing for kids soon. And, and um,
00:07:13
Speaker
It just was a call to really, hey, let's let's read something that that I can you know really have a personal journey and walk through and be able to share and grow with her in the in those areas as well. And it's been really good so far. it's We had um some really good conversations about the book and my take on it over the weekend, which was Really healing for both of us just to know that we both seek out this type of work and we're not suppressing things that we can't call a spade a spade and say like oh yeah i got this from this experience or oh this relationship contributed to that or whatever you know like. Be aware of why we are the way we are in.
00:08:00
Speaker
try and work through that to change the script. That's good. That's great. There was a quote that I really liked that kind of reminded me of this. It was on page 36. It said, the helmet and the breastplate are for his own sake, but his shield is for the safety of the whole line.
00:08:21
Speaker
So that made me think of the legacy component where it's like you can focus, be prideful and focus on yourself, which is like the helmet and the breastplate, but doing the work for others through doing your personal work is like, like what I was saying is how do I build my shield?
00:08:41
Speaker
through the healing process or whatever so that I can protect the front line that I can protect the brothers, the people that I love behind me, you know, because if we never do that work, if we never bolster ourselves, people are going to come after us, right? Like if we never attack the demons of whatever, we're going to be susceptible until we address those things. Do you remember the name of the shield? Hell no. I think it started with a hop on.
00:09:11
Speaker
This the round three foot shield that weighs like 60 pounds. Yeah. Just don't leave it, uh, laying up or down, man. Got a P in it. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think honor is extremely important for me, Rob. I strive to be a good person with integrity. Someone who does things well in all areas of my life. And I think that stems from the way I was brought up.
00:09:41
Speaker
our culture, my family and family values. And in faith, I think it's important to have good honor, just trying to do whatever I'm doing to the best of my ability. And then from that, I think hopefully my legacy will be that I pass that along to my kids so that they are good people as well with integrity, truthful, full of mercy and grace and doing the right thing, showing love to everyone, all those things. I i think I want that to be my legacy.
Modern Parodies and Spartan Training
00:10:18
Speaker
Love it. but I will say something. So I think for me, honor means keeping your promises, doing what you say you're going to do, and then just being honest, telling the truth. I think those two things are what I think of when I think of honor, being an honorable man. I think legacy, obviously, I don't have kids or
00:10:38
Speaker
It's not really in the future right now, but for me, legacy is like, what's going to be on my tombstone? Is it going to be worked hard at his job or is it going to be was like a good man, good friend, you know, good uncle, good Godfather. People thought that he was an honorable man. That's what the legacy I want. So yeah, they kind of go hand in hand, but those are my thoughts.
00:11:07
Speaker
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00:12:21
Speaker
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00:12:45
Speaker
This book thus far has all been from the point of view of Zionis, a squire or servant of a Spartan warrior, as he is being interviewed by a Persian immortal general after he was captured as the only survivor of the Battle of Thermopylae. So he starts to share his experience with the Spartans going back to six years in the past. He's now 14. So in the in the first book, he was 10. So he's now 14, and he's serving as a sparring partner of a young Spartan his own age named Alexanderus.
00:13:11
Speaker
Alexanderus is the son of ah war leaders and he's a protege of Dionychis who has a larger role later. Alexanderus is a member of one of the most noble families in Sparta but we learn quickly that he is not progressing as a warrior like the other youth and is more known for his poetry and musical abilities.
00:13:28
Speaker
In Book 2, a large portion of the narrative focuses on the agage, or military training of Spartan youths. The agage is a harsh system designed to mold boys into disciplined, fearless soldiers. Through this training, some of the Spartan youth die, and almost all get other serious injuries. Alexandros in particular is singled out for abandoning his shield, and as a result, an older Spartan not only punishes him, but all the rest of the youth in training.
00:13:52
Speaker
So during the training, Alexandris decides to sneak out so that he can see the Spartan warriors in real battle. Zionis is obliged to follow him as he's his servant, essentially. So on their journey to battle, Alexandris is ah able to pry out more information about Zionis' story of how he came to Sparta. Zionis talks of Diemache, as we learned from book one, and how they continue to improve in their ability to survive in the hills.
00:14:16
Speaker
Bruxis, not slowing down, is troubled to see that they are becoming increasingly savage. He encourages them to go into Athens and become re-civilized. The pair is not interested in this until one day Bruxis dies. After two summers in the wild, they decide to head to Athens to honor him. But as they are nearing Athens, Diamache informs Ziones that she hopes to find a man and this means that they cannot be together. Ziones, who is heartbroken by this, ultimately decides that he wants to pursue the life of a warrior in Sparta so they part ways. Alexander Senzionis then make it to the battle where the Spartans prepare to battle two fellow Greek people groups. The 4,000 Spartans are outnumbered by up to six times and nonetheless the Spartans easily defeat their foe either through death or surrender. There were only 23 deaths among the Spartans. King Leonides who is 55 at the time addresses his men.
00:15:09
Speaker
He honors the fallen men, and he reminds them of the purpose of the battle. He notes that the real enemy is Persia, and this battle's purpose, which was against fellow Greeks, was to just get their allegiance in fighting of the real
Work, Purpose, and Brotherhood
00:15:20
Speaker
enemy. In this section, there was really two two kind of main things that stuck out to me. The training and brotherhood side of it, and as well as some lessons in leadership. So I first wanted to go into the training side. so In this book, the reader is provided with vivid descriptions of the relentless physical and mental challenges faced by the Spartan boys, which include harsh living conditions, constant drilling, and trials that emphasize toughness, loyalty, and sacrifice. The goal of this training is consistently reminded to the youth that they are to endure sufferings
00:15:50
Speaker
and training so they will be able to endure them in battle and that also they are to be one cohesive unit. So with that being said, obviously we see Brotherhood playing a very large role in their lives. So I just wanted to see what you all thought about the role of Brotherhood in the development of the Spartan Warrior.
00:16:07
Speaker
I can see it being very valuable if you have a servant that is supposed to follow you everywhere and prepare you for battle. I think of going to the gym. It's like, Hey man, your only job is to spot him on every set and motivate him for every workout, help him with all his homework, you know, whatever fill in the blank.
00:16:32
Speaker
I would definitely be stronger than I am right now. You know, I'd be able to do one more set or go to failure each time. It's it's kind of a silly comparison, but it's also not. Yeah. Could you imagine if you're like warming up doing just benching 135 and he's like hovering over you like, come on, man, you got this.
00:16:53
Speaker
And also he's benching more than you? Yeah. Because in the story, Zionis is the better fighter than Alexandros. He's like showing him up and everything. That'll give you a little motivation. Yeah, I just I can't imagine someone being able to bicep curl more than Rob. I think that would just devastate him.
00:17:17
Speaker
But I thought that was cool though, Garrett too, just how they they push each other, right? Because there was even that part where Alexandros almost beats him, right? And the guys are like, come on, Ziones, like, truly you're joking around, right? But I think it was serious that he was starting to gain an an edge on him. So it pushes him both. Do you think while we are in the Grand Canyon, we should try the tree effing?
00:17:49
Speaker
you that a shot wait so Can you confirm that I understood this right? They literally are like, all of you just try to push this tree over. That's what I understood. It's basically an impossible task, but the point is to.
00:18:04
Speaker
Not quit or whatever is that point is brotherhood. Okay. No, i'm just kidding Yeah, essentially it's to not quit and obviously it's building up strength too because you're working together In a line you're lined up back to back with your shield So you're working on your strength being able to push so when you're in battle you'll see this later on when they and get to the real battle, but It will build up the endurance in keeping that wall, that shield wall firm and being able to push. So it's extremely helpful. You're never going to push over the tree, obviously, but it's very valuable. All this training stuff, you're going to see how important it is later on in the battle with the Persians. So just keep that in mind.
00:18:55
Speaker
What did you all think, the example that's given of brotherhood in the book, how would you all say that that this compares to modern brotherhood? You mean like sitting behind a computer and talking to your friends from thousands of miles away?
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah, again it's probably not just a fair, it's just probably not a fair comparison going back to la last week's episode, right? Where it's like, we're in a day and age where we have grocery stores on every corner. So we're not having to like hunt and gather for food. so it's It's like we're not worried about people from the Northeast, South and the west and West just like literally setting our neighborhoods on fire and raping our women and killing our parents. And burning our churches. Yeah, but it's like if this dude was trying to beat me up every day, you know, or we were getting in fights, it's like, I don't think that I would be friends with that person, you know? like i i get
00:19:55
Speaker
ah't respond Yeah. And like you see how I thought it was kind of almost comical in the sense of this time that they actually get alone and they're going on this boat across to battle. And then all of a sudden, like, let's talk about girls now. It's like, yeah, it's just classic 14-year-old boy stuff, right? Well, at the same time, they're trying to survive from drowning in a freezing cold lake. So they're trying to keep their mind off of death, off of drownings. no Talking about anything, literally anything, keeps their mind off of almost dying.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. I think one thing that I would say this compared to what we're used to in our society, and there's definitely some places where it's true, but it's not often that you that you're with your brothers and you're training with your brothers to failure in this way. And I think that that looks like two different things like have you training with someone to actually see them fail at an exercise or like a lift or on a workout um and then with work too or you know family it's like are you close enough with your brothers that you experience the lows and a lot of people I don't think do I think that we tend to we share the highs we put the highs out there
00:21:08
Speaker
um but not the lows as much. And then when it comes to training, I mean, all of us obviously like worked out a lot throughout college together, but it's like most of us probably don't have training partners anymore. And it changes things. I did not really work out in college.
00:21:27
Speaker
Garrett, do you feel this this sort of like war mentality with like a product launch and stuff? like It's all hands on deck. You get it up off the ground. like There's a hoorah moment. There's definitely a sense of accomplishment. I think that probably goes back to what I was talking about in the last episode where and this is not like I'm not proud of it. like Truly, I'm like, ah.
00:21:53
Speaker
This doesn't really matter. It's it's hard for me to like feel the stake in the game or and that's what I call it a game. Like it's hard to feel like there's life and death, clear delineation of purpose, non purpose and what I'm doing. I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe I'm weird. I mean, tell me if I am, but When you guys are doing your jobs, or you're like, man, like I am, like what I'm doing really matters. I so i personally am in a state now the last few years where I just like struggle with that. Honestly, one of the best things that's happened to me the last month, it has been extremely challenging. But Brooke being horribly sick has really given me some very clear and definitive purpose because she is like non-functioning.
00:22:47
Speaker
And I am taking almost the sole care of the kids, doing most things at the house, if not 99% of them. And it's like, okay, like the family will not move along unless I'm doing it. And that's really been helpful for me. But most of the time, maybe it's during the workday, I can just struggle. And and I'm just being honest. I'm like,
00:23:14
Speaker
Should I push my kids hard to get A's? I probably should because that's what I'm told to do. Or like should I teach my kids to be competitive because I got really overly competitive and I would yell and scream and we talked about that in the athlete mask, right? And but then I'm like going to the point where it's like nothing matters. Maybe I'm just weird.
00:23:35
Speaker
No, I think what you're saying is you've gained a new rejuvenated level of perspective that allows you to look back and recognize that the things that really do matter and the things that are maybe don't matter as much in the bigger picture scheme of things. To some extent, but I think what I'm also sharing is that I'm having trouble figuring out other than being a good dad and a good husband what matters.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to start to feel like my work matters. Do you not relate? It's okay if you don't. No, no, I i do relate. I was going to actually like I was thinking of have I felt like I've gone to war before.
00:24:17
Speaker
And yeah, my old job, Haven roads across all of Kansas City, dude, we had, it was from sun up literally around the clock. We did had night jobs. You're talking guys that you would literally go to war with every day to get them what they needed to make sure things were moving efficiently. I mean, we had a hundred and 40 trucks moving throughout the city and it's like,
00:24:43
Speaker
If I don't do my part right, or if I don't communicate right, we're going to fail. And it's going to be really costly. And it's going to affect and have major ramifications in the city or whatever, right? And so you go to war every single day, fighting for those guys to get them what they need so that we can get the job done. And if you don't, then you're going to feel it.
00:25:06
Speaker
So like, yeah, okay, you're putting asphalt on the road, much bigger things in life than that. But I would finish my day and go to bed and be like, damn, I just went to war today with these guys. And I think that's what made me miss it so much. Or like, that would made me so emotional to leave is because Okay, if you leave like a normal office job and you're like, all right, have a good life, you know, like maybe you made some friends along the way, but man, these were more like my, my brothers in battle that we were just trying to pull off some crazy stuff during the season to make it all happen for the company.
Gender Roles and Societal Expectations
00:25:44
Speaker
And there's this great sense of camaraderie that went along with it that I was doing it for the guy next to me. And it was it was more about that than about like doing it for the the company. I mean, it was all for the company, but you love the guy next to you. You want to get him what he needs.
00:26:02
Speaker
You know, ah whenever I worked at FedEx, I'll never forget this actually directly relates to this book, but I saw on LinkedIn, like an executive person rode with a fellow courier and they said that we were modern day Spartans.
00:26:19
Speaker
um It's just funny, but that job, yeah, I felt like I was going to war every day, going to FedEx. I know there's so much camaraderie. You're going in and it's like, you're right. I got to get all this off today. And I got to pick all this stuff up from all these places. And it's the pandemic and it's like, people need all this stuff. It's a lot of necessities and a lot of violence going on on the road.
00:26:47
Speaker
But yeah, I know that's, yeah, going to war, that job, nothing will ever be like that. You're just united in that singular purpose, right? Yeah, for sure. And when you're doing that with others and you're both united in that purpose.
00:27:01
Speaker
and the And they talk about like a comedy in this, like the soldiers giving you trouble giving each other trouble in like a funny way, making fun of each other. We did that at FedEx the entire time on the belt, you know, just making fun of each other the whole time. And that laughing just kind of helps you go forward. Jared, I can relate a little bit though to what you're saying. At least I ah did feeling like Work just doesn't matter. But I was actually talking with my older brother. I asked him about purpose and finding like what your ideal dream job is. But essentially your work matters because you have a family. Your job doesn't have to be the end all. This is what I'm made for.
00:27:51
Speaker
You and I, correct me if I'm wrong, but our family, our faith is more important than the actual work that we're doing. Work is important, absolutely. It's part of our worship, it's part of what we're made to do, but the actual job itself doesn't have to be something meaningful. Sure, it has to be something good, but and maybe my position is different. In project management, i can I can support people for what they want to get accomplished.
00:28:21
Speaker
But I don't love it. Like, that's not what I'm made to do, I don't think. But I do it well because I want to support my family and I want to support them well. So I endure work. I try to do it well so that I can be a good dad and provide for my kids and for my wife, if that makes sense.
00:28:42
Speaker
For sure. I think a lot of the faith aspect is the most helpful because I definitely have been retraining my thought process and my beliefs on the theology of work to that exact point. It's not about finding a dream job. It's the fact that we're co-creators were made to cultivate and create. So part of it is just straight up. Yeah. Having a wrong belief.
00:29:10
Speaker
about, oh, this is important because lives are being saved. This is not important because who cares about a battery powered window blind, but that's not that's not the right question. And that's what I used to ask. It's not the right question to ask. It's about doing your work to the glory of God, creating something new and and not necessarily creating something new, but doing something that adds value.
00:29:40
Speaker
I think of scarcity brain. What does he say? Like a higher number of percentage of jobs are BS jobs. Like he actually says it. And my boss, very adamant about he can get on a soapbox of how there's a lot of jobs where people do work about work, but not actually doing work.
00:30:03
Speaker
And it's been pretty convicting to see and that may have been part of the problem that my last job is like not feeling like my role really mattered. So it's like, am I even like doing anything valuable here? But I think that's something that I've just been processing lately is.
00:30:20
Speaker
What, what should I push my kids to do? Like, Oh yeah, statistically, you're probably not going to be a pro athlete. So should we put them in sports? Well, you learn lesson valuable lesson. Like I probably like overthink it to some degree, but it's also just kind of where I'm at is this, this life really does matter.
00:30:40
Speaker
It's it's not about like, oh, like one day we'll get to heaven. I think my theology has been being corrected there. Like what we're doing right now really does matter. And for a long time, I haven't really believed that or have believed it partially or wrongly.
00:30:58
Speaker
And that's why I have trouble identifying with the Spartan culture of being part of something bigger than yourself. The only thing I can tangibly feel as bigger than myself is my family. And like I shared earlier, I thought of something Thomas said about the material mask is I'm looking up now.
00:31:17
Speaker
The divorce rates are higher likelihood if the woman makes more than the man in the marriage. Like there's just like various things that I'm just like processing in real time, gender stereotype roles that don't necessarily apply to me. And it's kind of like really challenged. What's my purpose? What is my value and my family at my job? Things like that. And just being honest, equal guy.
00:31:47
Speaker
What? Ikigai. The Japanese purpose. Oh, yeah. Hey, everyone. It's Matt. We're going to take a quick break from our discussion.
00:31:59
Speaker
We thought it would be fun to have some of us recommend other books that we have already read and likely will not discuss on this podcast. These books will be ones that are memorable and impactful to the person recommending it. And we would love for others to read them too. If you do read one of our recommended books, let us know. Send us a message because we would love to talk about it with you and to know that you at least give the book a try. Today, I'm recommending Babble by R.F. Quang.
00:32:29
Speaker
Babel is a powerful exploration of language, colonialism, and resistance. It's set in an alternate 19th century Oxford, and the novel dives into the complexities of translation and how language can be both a tool of empowerment and oppression. Quang's storytelling is not only immersive but also really thought-provoking, challenging readers to think critically about the ways in which a language shapes our world and history.
00:32:59
Speaker
Babel is impactful because it sheds light on the often overlooked consequences of colonialism and the fight for justice. So if you are interested in history, linguistics, etymology, or social change, this is a must read, I would say.
Book Recommendations and Spartan Leadership
00:33:20
Speaker
There's a little bit of a fantasy element with magic involved in the use of language.
00:33:25
Speaker
but it's not overpowering, not too deep. Overall, this book was very memorable and makes you think I enjoy reading about the etymology and language and translation. So, Babbel, written by R. F. Coyne.
00:33:45
Speaker
In this section, I also wanted to spend a little more time talking about Dayanikis, so previously noted as Alexandros' mentor. In this section, Dayanikis yet again shows a nurturing form of leadership. ah So as as Matt kind of mentioned, Dayanikis essentially rebukes Palanikis for embarrassing Alexandros, but yet he even does so and ah in kind, stating that he hopes that Palanikis survives as many battles in the flesh as he has already fought in his imagination, and that may he also may acquire humility.
00:34:15
Speaker
In private, Dainikis later encourages Alexanderus. He explains that Palanikis was not seeking to harm, but rather to teach. He also impresses upon him the importance of discipline and stating, habit will be your champion. When you train the mind to think one way and one way only, when you refuse to allow it to think in another, that will produce great strength in battle. This is what Matt was referencing earlier. To end this section, Dainikis decides to reassign the squires. Zionis is no longer Alexanderus' helper, but rather will be Dainikis.
00:34:45
Speaker
And Rooster will now be assigned to Alexander's father, Olympias. So, Dayanikis appears to have more depth to him than most characters, at least that's kind of what i'm I'm picking up on. Do you all feel that he embodies a true Spartan leader, or is he rather an exception to a Spartan leader?
00:35:03
Speaker
And to clarify, he seems to kind of have the softer touch. He's a little more nurturing than some of these other leaders that we're seeing. Do you feel like in that and him, is that him being truly Spartan? What they're aspiring to be is culture or rather is he an exception to that? I think for me, I don't know. I probably don't have an answer to your question if he's an exception, but I think what I've enjoyed about this book is the character development of various Spartans where my only other background on this group is, you know, like the movie 300. And it's like, everybody's got a six pack. Everyone's just screaming all the time and everyone's just like, scoy and yeah. And chanting, you know, and, um, there's no fear of death ever. They all love it.
00:35:58
Speaker
And it just is what it is kind of thing. So to me, I'm like, but I think there's just humanity. I mean, think of, think of the fraternity. Think of us. We all have vastly different, we we all grew up in Missouri in one um specific part of the country. Yeah. We have pretty different views. Except for Roberto. Yeah. ah Well, no, even him, Nebraska, right? Like in that same some i agree though Well, I just mean like the Midwest all within a few hundred mile radius of each other like culturally very similar. Yeah. And um just that like we all have very different personalities and nurturing toughness, ah very emotive, you know, very stoic, whatever it may be. And I think that's what's great about the Spartans is like, Alexandros likes art and poetry and
00:36:51
Speaker
It's like modern day, right? Like I'm on the football field at practice in high school and it's like, Oh, the soccer players and slurs were being said. You can imagine what they, you can just fill in the blank. And it's like, that's not like what manhood is about. Other people didn't care. Other is, you know, some people would try to be super tough, like Paula Nike's and others didn't, you know what I mean? And so.
00:37:14
Speaker
Alexandros, as the book goes on, turns out to he is initiated. He is a warrior. He fights. So it's not like you have to be one way. You don't have to be like not Leonidas, the actual person, but Gerard Butler's his interpretation of Leonidas in the movie and just scream the whole time and just like never have any fear.
00:37:36
Speaker
that's what's been really cool about this. So I don't think there's like one way. I think the ultimate thing is like, will you hold up your shield and protect the person to your left and to your right? And there's a whole host of nurturing personalities, not, you know, screamo, verbally abusive.
00:37:54
Speaker
Spartans, I don't, I don't think there's just so one way, but the bottom line is that you have to be willing to fight and not be afraid to the point where you will defend your brother no matter what. To me, I think Danny Keys is the ideal male Spartan. So he's portrayed as, and we'll see more of this in the next book, but as the most honorable type of person there is.
00:38:23
Speaker
Incredible warrior obviously all these people are like Olympic level athletes and He's a little bit older too. So I think he has the experience of fighting in wars but he's also wiser Compared to say pollin ikis whose mid 20s or so and I think just being older being a father that brings wisdom now from experience and so I being an honorable man, being an incredibly gifted warrior, being wise, that it makes you an ideal type of person. At least that's how the book is portraying him to be so far.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that, Matt. I think that in the way that I'm reading, because it's kind of from Zione's perspective, you must get this sense that Zione's is surprised by the compassion that Dainiki shows. And I think that you're right, though, in the sense that he does have this complexity to him that is truly Spartan are essentially ideal man, right?
Habits and Personal Success
00:39:32
Speaker
And I think that if you look at the different stages of these other individuals, you know, Zione's being like 14, 15 at this point, and Poloniki's being like mid 20s, I can relate to it because like what I viewed as being truly manly attributes at 14, 15, and even at 25, I think is drastically incorrect.
00:39:58
Speaker
as to what I view manhood now. And so I think to me, I think Dainiki really exemplifies masculinity in that. And so yeah, that's kind of that's kind of how I'm coming to it of this point of like, well, he's strong, but yet he can deal with the complexities of things. that's you know For me, that's what I you know i strive for. that That's my my kind of hope is to like try to find that balance of, I think that's what manhood is about, is being a complex individual who can have the strength to care for your family and then yet deal with more emotional sensitive issues. You know, earlier I mentioned the quote that Dainikis says. um So he says, habit will be your champion. What does this mean to you guys? Yeah, I mean, we are habits.
00:40:46
Speaker
So Adam, can you remind me of the poster that you had up in your room ah when you're grown up you up? Actually, you remember it, which is funny. I don't even remember it. The Perseverance one? Yeah, what does it say? So growing up, Adam had this in his room.
00:41:01
Speaker
And I don't know why, but it has always stuck with me. Apparently, it's Gandhi who said it. I don't know if he first said it, but it's your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, your habits become your values, and your values become your destiny. I don't remember that being Gandhi. I don't think it's that on your poster. I remember it was like a basketball hoop on it. and Yeah.
00:41:31
Speaker
That's a good one though. We'll go with that, that being it. That's what it is. We'll be your champion. That's what I mean. That's a much shorter way to say it. Yeah. I think of the book, atomic habits, which is still extremely popular five, six years after it was published. And I just read it for the first time earlier this year. And I feel like I've seen some of the fruit of that and making some.
00:41:58
Speaker
dietary changes, some exercise changes, and very small tweaks that compound. And I think the author and Atomic Habits uses the phrase like, if you just get like 1% better today throughout that 1% over the course of 100 days or a couple of years or whatever, really grows.
00:42:23
Speaker
So marginal gains. Yeah, yeah. And with this story and Alexandros and it's like, hey, like this is who you are. You are a Spartan and this is what's expected of you. So we we have to create the habits that no matter what.
00:42:42
Speaker
You're going to be, you know, prepared for battle. And I think there's truth to that in every aspect of life, not just war, but specifically when it comes to war. I mean, because back then, too, it's literally face to face with your enemy. It's not like shooting off rockets and being thousands of miles away fighting the enemy.
00:43:04
Speaker
You have to, I mean, it's those weapons and those arrows and those swords and spears are literally going to be right there and you can't flinch. You can't have a moment of fear and you have to stick to the plan, your commands, your orders. And that is built through all this training that they do and the hardening of the mind and you build those habits. And that's why at the beginning, only 23 died when they killed thousands or whatever it was.
00:43:32
Speaker
I got some good notes from the Atomic Habits book. So the first one is success is the sum of our daily habits. It's not some miraculous event. It's a good one. ah Systems are greater than goals. Goals help set a direction, but systems help for making progress. Winners and losers all have the same goals. Achieving a goal is a momentary win. Goals restrict your happiness. You can't be happy until you hit your goal. Goals recreate.
00:43:59
Speaker
in either or conflict to the narrow box of happiness. Fall in love with the process rather than the product. You can be happy any time the system is running. Yeah, that's a good book. I really highly recommend it. And then it's like each habit is an atom that builds to the bigger success of your life. That's a good book. I just really like this quote towards the end. When Zioni's does
Spartan Women and Influence in Society
00:44:25
Speaker
become a squire to Dayanikis,
00:44:29
Speaker
He basically gets promoted from taking care of the cattle and the herds to being Diana Keys' is second squire. But the way Diana Keys says it to Ziones, I thought it was really funny. And maybe you guys can relate. But to be a squire, you have to be as dumb as a mule, numb as a post, and obedient as an imbecile. He says, in these, Ziones, you are impeccable.
00:44:59
Speaker
remember yeah Can you guys relate to that at all? Would you guys make a good squire? pleasure Only if you were who I was with. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors Feeling down? You're not alone. Many people find that the modern world can be an overwhelming place. Traffic. Spilling your Starbucks. Tummy aches. Not being able to afford that Apple watch you wanted. It's stressful. Maybe you need someone to listen to you. Even a normal person to offer some perspective.
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Speaker
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00:46:04
Speaker
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00:46:19
Speaker
Let's go. And now back to the show. So I'm going to give basically the Cliff Notes version of what happened and then I can't wait to get into the discussion.
00:46:32
Speaker
So the chapter starts out or the book, there's just more battles that the Persians and are attacking, ah more and more cities and Xerxes is getting more and more cities to simply surrender out of Phobos, which it's been fun to try to figure out like the Greek and how we get current term. So fear phobia.
00:46:53
Speaker
So, Ziones, meanwhile, longs for his cousin, Diamanchis, so much, he he tries to find her. He can't and decides, you know what? I just need to get her off my mind. Let's just get married. He marries Rooster's cousin and within 10 months already has a baby and it ends up having two at the point by the time that this chapter takes place.
00:47:15
Speaker
This chapter, like the name implies, the focus is on Ariti, Dinahki's wife, who along with other women play a pivotal role actually in galvanizing the Spartans to deploy and fight the Persians. So the background with her, she has given birth to four girls, so no boys and thus no male heir to continue Dinahki's name, which comes very much into view in this section. The Persians attacked a city called Trace and 10,000 Greeks went to fight but upon arrival to the city they determined they were destined to lose so they all literally went home.
00:47:54
Speaker
The city was ransacked. Women were raped. Babies were decapitated. Young men castrated to become eunuchs. It was just horrible. And it's the Spartan women who were pissed off and just were berating the men for just not even trying. They were even lobbying to fight themselves.
00:48:14
Speaker
Eventually the council of elders and Sparta do decide to fight. And this is where the battle of Thermopylae is first introduced, where it's set. Like this is what's going to happen. So here's the timeline. The full Greek army was to be assembled and arrive in two and a half weeks. That's how quickly they could get going. However, the Persians would be there in 10 days. Clearly that isn't enough time. So to hold them 300 all sire Spartans were to be an advanced party to make it to the gates first.
00:48:44
Speaker
All sires were soldiers who had sons to continue the family name, meaning this was literally a suicide mission. So, Ziones would not be going because his master, Dynakis, had no male heir with Eridi.
00:49:00
Speaker
But the story gets more interesting. Dinah Key's wife, Arete, her brother, a Spartan, had an affair with a non-Spartan who bore a bastard child, Rooster. So Rooster is Arete's nephew. We learned about Rooster in detail in last week's episode. It was the title of the literal book three. ah So I'll only give a brief recap. You can listen to last week's episode if you want a full description. So Rooster has been offered to become a full Spartan citizen.
00:49:29
Speaker
and he has declined his hatred towards Sparta for enslaving his mother's people as helots was too strong. He declines again when the 300 soldiers are being chosen. So typically people who refuse this offer are literally assassinated. The Spartans fear that if you turn down becoming a Spartan citizen, you aren't truly loyal to the Spartans and can turn against them with the enemy in the course of battle.
00:49:57
Speaker
He avoided assassination the first time, but he won't avoid it this time. The Cryptaea, which is a secret assassination group of Spartans, come and seize Rooster and his family, but Alexandros and Siones were there trying to convince him to change his mind. So the Cryptaea come and seize Rooster, ah Spartans and Squires, Siones were there. So by law, they were committing treason.
00:50:25
Speaker
So they all get arrested and taken to the secret trial, which isn't going to be much of a trial. Rooster has about minutes before he's executed, before his baby son is going to be killed, because the thought is even as a baby, when that son grows up, he'll resent the Spartans in secret bench.
00:50:43
Speaker
So suddenly, out of nowhere, a readie appears and, in my opinion, pulls off one of the most badass truth bombs and negotiations. So typically, a woman is not allowed to be at one of these meetings at all. She defies commands to leave, even from her husband, Dining Keys, and declares that the baby boy is not Rooster's son, is her own husband's son. And it turns out he is.
00:51:11
Speaker
Dinah Keyes slept with Rooster's wife, and the son is his, not Rooster. So Dinah Keyes admits this, and ah immediately, Arete negotiates a Spartan to sponsor the baby boy to become a Spartan and go through agage training when he turns six. She also negotiates the mom's release to raise the child in Arete's home. Everyone complies, so at this point, everyone except Rooster is safe from execution.
00:51:41
Speaker
And so to wrap this up, Alexandros then steps in. So we think, all right, Rooster's done for. Alexandros then negotiates Rooster's survival. Rooster is so renowned with his fighting in the battlefield that the Helots, the Messians and Sparta, Alexandros is afraid that if the Cryptaea assassinate him, the Helots will likely revolt and there will be an uprising and join the Persians. But the Spartans are in a conundrum because they can't keep them in their midst.
00:52:10
Speaker
So, Alexandros proposes to release him to the Persians. The Persians will gladly receive an escaped slave, and because of Rooster's hatred towards Sparta, the Persians likely will allow him to fight against the Spartans, at which time the Spartans can kill him on the battlefield.
Spartan Values and Cultural Debates
00:52:26
Speaker
The king before Leonidas already deposed a Persia and is the best informant to Xerxes, so Rooster can't provide any new intelligence that Demeritos, the deposed king, hasn't already shared, so he's not a risk.
00:52:39
Speaker
So by releasing him, the helots will view him as stupid for not accepting the Spartan citizenship invitation. And they won't be upset with the Spartans since he's now seemingly fled Sparta. The Spartans agree. Rooster is spared again. And the chapter concludes with the Spartan elder overseeing the hearing and forming Dyna keys that he now is eligible. to be chosen as one of the 300 now that he has admitted to having a bastard son himself who will be sponsored into Spartan citizenship. So thank you for listening through that recap. What were your all's thoughts on this book? There's a lot to talk about. So much that happened. and So much cool stuff.
00:53:26
Speaker
But first thing to note, the way I understood it is, Garrett, you made it sound like Diana Keys really did father the child. But the way I saw it is it's questionable whether he did or not. Oh, really? And I don't think he actually did. Oh, really?
00:53:51
Speaker
Because when they're at the trial, there were several other men, soldiers who are saying whenever they go on war campaigns, Diana Keys was never, ever unfaithful. He is the most loyal, the most faithful soldier they've ever met. And.
00:54:12
Speaker
I saw it as a reedy trying to save the child's life. And the only way to do that in a real way is to convince her husband to lie and say that he fathered the child. okay So even though Dainese says that he did it, I saw it as he was listening to his wife more than admitting to having sexual relations with that girl.
00:54:42
Speaker
because if, if he said no, then it would make his wife, a really look like a complete fool for bodging into this ceremony. It would make her look like a liar. And there was a moment where she is just like looking into his eyes, pleading in my, from how I understand it, pleading to Diana keys to understand what she's trying to get him to do.
00:55:11
Speaker
And so I thought it was more of Diana Keys taking a fall, taking the blame for something he didn't do. Just to one, save the child and to back up his wife. I mean, I think it's clear, too, that he he would like to be chosen as a part of this 300 group, too, though. So that might be part of his motivation.
00:55:35
Speaker
But why would the, so you're saying the, what's the what's Rooster's wife's name? Harmonia. Well, you're saying that she got it as well. Like she got, like she was like, I need to lie to give my son a chance to live. I mean, she probably understood that culturally, but so Harmonia had to lie. Or really had to lie and Dyna keys. So you're you're saying they're all lying.
00:56:00
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I may have misinterpreted here. and I mean, I could be in misinterpreting also, but that's how I understood it. But ah man, I just feel like, okay.
00:56:14
Speaker
I mean, we were just talking about in the last episode, how, how he's like a very honorable and is the like token example of a Spartan. So what do you, what are the Adams think? I feel like I'm being convinced that Matt's right. Also because he's really smart. I've read this twice and that did not cross my mind. I think Matt's right because he's Asian. So he's smarter. Oh my gosh.
00:56:41
Speaker
No, I think I think it'd go either way. I think that you definitely there was like a shadow of doubt that was cast when they talked about him being faithful during battles and such. You know, there's a lot of motivations that are going on. I think you could really go either way. I think both would would make sense along the storyline. I think that the motivations for everything would make sense both ways. I mean, if you think about Iridi, so it's her nephew or no, her this would be her great nephew if that the little boy is because it's the son of her nephew. And so there's definitely that familial tie with that. But at the same time, she acknowledges that her so even stating that is saving the life of this baby, but essentially destiny her husband for death.
00:57:32
Speaker
because he now will be chosen. you know And she would know that, that she's basically setting her husband up to now be a part of ah the Suicide Squad, essentially. Suicide Squad. Wow, I feel like I'm being convinced that the beauty of literature is you can interpret interpret it however you like. Yeah, everyone's everyone's right. And also as Matt Squire, he's definitely right.
00:58:03
Speaker
Okay. I would agree with what you were saying, Staelyn. She is essentially sending Diana Keys to his death by being able to fight that thermopoly. But I think at the same time, she probably understands that this is basically what all Spartan men have been training for their entire life. What Diana Keys would want.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, right. He would want to be able to fight for his country at this battle to die for his country. Okay. I think you both. ah Yeah. Okay. I think I've, I've been convinced I was wrong because I'm also finding on Reddit. So, you know, that's a very good source of truth, but no, just, but just the fact that like, what we were talking about, like a Reedy is motivated and Dynakeez is motivated to keep that baby alive because That's their only male bloodline in a readies family. Anyway, so I was clearly wrong, but, um, Hey, this, this is why we do this book club to help us understand what we're reading more. But I was like, man, did a readie do this because yeah, she wanted to preserve the family bloodline. Was she mad at dining keys for.
00:59:14
Speaker
committed adultery, so she wanted to expose him. So then he'd go, but yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So talk about like competing factors of honor, right? Like there's the honor of going to battle. There's the honor of fighting as a Spartan and defending your country and your family. And then there's the honor of being faithful to your wife. There's the honor of telling the truth. There's a lot of competing issues here on what the right decision is to do.
00:59:44
Speaker
That's fascinating. Chad GPT seems to think that Nat might be wrong. Chad GPT's been very wrong though. There's a lot of things that like I've like searched with this book and it's been very wrong. It really confused me with the Ooh Rooster's relationship because I was like, wait, he's the son of Ooh?
01:00:04
Speaker
Yeah. Part of how I interpreted the story was oddly enough on Sunday, we're going through the book of Genesis and the Bible at church. And we read the, we're reading the story where God has promised, Hey, Abram and Sarah, even though y'all don't have any kids and you're in your eighties.
01:00:22
Speaker
I'm going to give you children and descendants that are more numerous than the stars in the sky. Well, it's been several more years since that promise and basically they try to take God's promise into their own hands. And, you know, nowadays we have different methods and medical interventions to help with infertility, which I know even for some of us in our group, this led that topic hits home, right? And Sarah, I bet, you know, back in the day, it was like dishonorable to not even have an air period, not just a son, but specifically a son. So being barren was, was like just not a good thing back then.
01:01:04
Speaker
And it was very common culturally to just like, here, take my female servant, sleep with her, have a kid with her so that you can have an air. So, um, committed in accident fidelity was prioritized over being childless in that day and age. And so yeah with, with a readie, she wasn't barren, but she had only, not only that obviously.
01:01:28
Speaker
It's great that they had four kids, but in the Spartan culture, not having a son, there was no male air to continue the name. So that's why I was trying to figure out like, okay, is she trying to preserve this kid's life just because they need some male error or is this truly dynakee son? And so she's not upset with dynakees because Like now they have a son and ah she approved this. She's like, yeah, go sleep with harmonia. But yeah, that totally makes sense because I was like, why would you why would he sleep with someone who's not even a Spartan? Like if he's going to commit adultery. So that was some of where my thinking was where I was like, well, maybe a reading is OK with this because culturally the priority above fidelity is having a male heir, you know, and and certain cultures back then.
01:02:20
Speaker
I do think, though, that there probably is still some truth in that, that this elevates Dainiki's to a level, it's okay, he's got an heir now. And I don't think it would have, it doesn't seem like it's being viewed as this shameful thing that he's done.
01:02:36
Speaker
is what i'm yeah how I read that. Whether, again, he actually, like, I get it, whether he really is his child or not. Madon, the leader of the council does say on page 183, consider what you're saying. You defame your wife by attesting to this, quote, truth in yourself by swearing to this falsehood. i Oh, so they're even saying we know this isn't true, and you're saying it is anyway.
01:03:01
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. But they're saying like, you you defame your wife, right? Defame. That doesn't seem like the right word. Defame if you've committed it adultery. Am I interpreting this correctly? Matt, the resident? Yeah, I mean, that sounds right. If he's admitting to committing adultery, then yeah, he is ruining his wife and her reputation and her honor and his honor.
01:03:26
Speaker
So I think there is some smattering of his view with the group, even if he does have a son now in his name, whether or not it's actually a son or not. But, so I don't think he came off scot-free, Stalin, but are you saying he did? Is that what you're, is that how you interpret it? I think that there, again, culturally speaking, it seems like the value of having a son is still placed on a pretty high pedestal.
01:03:51
Speaker
Cause I feel like a readies brother was not thought of fondly for pro creating rooster, right? Like that wasn't a like, Oh, sweet. Like you had a a bastard son or whatever. Like that wasn't viewed positively, right? Yeah, I don't think so, but I couldn't say for sure. Well, maybe that can be our closing question. Do you think it's admirable?
01:04:15
Speaker
what Dinah Key's Anna Reedy did to lie for the sake of keeping this child alive. Because in that culture, it's it's not like there's a the statue of limitations, right? Like we have in America. Like he's gonna have to admit to this boy being his son for the rest of his life. Like it can never, the truth can never be found out or else they'll be like, oh, this was a lie. Okay, let's kill this child, right?
01:04:43
Speaker
I mean, that's my understanding of the cult, the law there. So to me, I'm like, people are going to view you as your character is, is stained in this way. So what do you all think about that? Is that the right thing to do? It's a tough question. Is it the honorable thing? Also a tough question. You but you put in this situation where You're either making your wife look like a complete fool or you make yourself look like a complete fool. What would you guys do in this situation? Yeah, I think of like, yeah, if your spouse comes or even so like even more modernized, your spouse comes home one day and it's like, hey, this is our kid now. I saved them from this horrible thing. But you do have to tell everyone that you had this child with someone else. It's oh.
01:05:39
Speaker
I don't know the scenario in which that will play out, but there probably is one. It's so hard to think of a modern day scenario. Jerry Seinfeld stuff for sure. I'm sure that there is some component that, you know, we've already seen with a lot of reading. She kind of similar to any keys. She kind of exemplifies.
01:06:01
Speaker
like a strong woman. And I think in some ways, you know, if that's your spouse, there's got to be some pride that he would have to say like the compassion that she has for this baby or the care that she has for this baby that she would put our reputation in front of this. She would prioritize a child's life over our reputation. Yeah, i I think I agree. It would be it would be very hard. I think one thing that would make it easier is that the person that you're lying alongside with is your wife. So it's like, if you're going to keep a secret that it's that big, it's good to have that secret with your wife. You know what I mean? To have each other, because that's the best relationship to have a secret with. You know what I mean? In a very positive way. I think it's a good example of breaking a law
01:06:54
Speaker
Like breaking a moral code that breaks a law for something that you have a personal belief is the ultimate right thing to do, right? I mean, it even talks about that in the Bible. It's like respect the governments, respect the law, except if it comes directly in conflict with the Bible, like murder someone. It's like not going to do that. I'm using a very extreme example, but I guess it's kind of relevant to this story though.
01:07:24
Speaker
Another, another topic that I'm thinking of on, you know, off the cuff too is like, we live so individualistically. It's hard to understand like, how could you kill this baby son? But you know, we read that. We do read that in the Bible where it's like the guard that let Peter or that the Peter escaped when the earthquake happened and he was about to kill himself. Cause he and he and Peter's like, don't do it.
01:07:50
Speaker
and they go home and he and his whole family were baptized. It's like, wait, they all got saved or Daniel and the lions then the guys like lie about Daniel and then the King throws him the liars and their families into the lions done to be killed. It's like, they didn't do anything. They were innocent.
01:08:11
Speaker
And we view it very individualistically. I'm not saying it's right, but I also am acknowledging that family collectivist cultures where it's like you are an extension of your family unit. You are an extension of the community. You are an extent, you are Spartan, right? Like that character who died while being whipped. It's like your body is not your own. You are Spartan. Like you are for the Spartan cause.
01:08:36
Speaker
I don't know. I just love this, this story and just thinking of all the different twists and turns. I thought the way they portray the role of women in Spartan society was really neat. As they were talking about the Cryptaea, Zionis talks to a Reedy. That's in book three, actually, at a Reedy's house. Yes. So a Reedy asks the Zionis who runs the country, essentially. And he responds.
01:09:06
Speaker
king in the E force. And she's like, Oh, is that what you think? Like, it's actually the women who tell the men what to do. And they're like, in charge of the crypto, the secret society that makes bad people disappear and are never found again. And then this example of a really showing up at this trial and winning her argument It was pretty amazing. They run a lot of the ins and outs, the day to day life of Sparta. And there's a brief part of it where they are also extremely disciplined in keeping their bodies physically fit because they know they had to produce strong, physically fit children. So they're extremely good runners too.
01:10:02
Speaker
They are confident. They're witty. They're smart. They're funny. And they're basically in control of everything.
Parallels to Popular Culture
01:10:11
Speaker
That's good. I mean, you can kind of see that how how they talk to the men and they get their way, essentially. Yeah. Was she the one whose husband died and like went to the wrestling pit where all the guys are like naked wrestling each other and she's like, who's going to marry me? yeah Is that her? Yeah. It's her. of Yeah. She like, I'm telling you, she's, she's awesome.
01:10:41
Speaker
You guys have any other thoughts on the book? Have you guys talked about the movie much? I'm just thinking because so many more people are going to be familiar with the movie than the book. And I'm trying to put characters from this book into characters that I think they may be represented by in the movie. Obviously, some of them are the same. The roosters are going to be the hunchback dude in the movie.
01:11:07
Speaker
I mean, maybe, maybe. Yeah. That's kind of what I i thought whenever they introduced him. Yeah. I i honestly thought Zionis was going to be because they're talking about how he was like deformed. Well, and you then you were just talking about the women and the main Leonidas, his wife was a really strong woman character in the movie. So it's just kind of interesting to try to like, I need to watch the movie again because it's been a while.
01:11:32
Speaker
She goes to a trial or she goes to the, I don't know, whatever. Yeah. been account of voters yeah she She got into political fight, you know, but that was a, that was a super, super cool movie. And that's, we we should make some links back to it because a lot of people will probably be able to better understand if they haven't read the book, especially what we're saying. I was thinking we should watch it at the Airbnb on our retreat.
01:12:00
Speaker
yeah let's do this ah yeah Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Do you ever miss, you know, those bracelets? I'm not talking about Taylor Swift's friendship bracelets. No, no, no. I'm talking about the WWJD bracelets, which if you didn't know, stands for what would Jesus do? Before the age of phones, you'd have a nice bracelet to constantly remind you of how guilty you should feel about what you just did. If you're seeking some modern day nostalgic throwback to the 90s, you have to install the newest app, WWJD.
01:12:36
Speaker
What would Jesus do digitally? Would Jesus really just swipe left nonchalantly? Or would he stop and pray for her first? Would he send that text after a second glass of wine? Would he respond on TikTok after someone slandered his name? Or would he throw back to his punishment? just pilot trial and remain silent. The only way to find out, aside from reading the text that is the Bible, not an actual text message, is to download WWJD using our patented AI technology called DJ, which stands for Digital Jesus,
01:13:12
Speaker
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01:13:42
Speaker
That's amazing. Great ideas. And now back to the show. Book five, Polynikes, the section that explores the aftermath of the battle from the Persian perspective. We see King Xerxes struggling with deep guilt over the desecration of King Leoninus' body, while his advisors offer conflicting advice on how to move forward. This part of the book also shifts back to the Spartans, showing their preparations for battle and how they manage fear and inspire courage in their ranks. Book five is crucial because it delves into the internal struggles of leaders and warriors alike. Xerxes, a mighty king,
01:14:17
Speaker
taste his emotional turmoil while Spartan leaders like Leonidas and Dynakis demonstrate what it means to lead with honor and resolve. That exploration of fear, duty, and leadership in this section offers a lot of lessons that are still relevant to us today.
01:14:32
Speaker
The book starts off with Xerxes being haunted by nightmares after the desecration of Leonidas' body. His advisors, Mardonius and Artemisia, offer conflicting advice should Xerxes stay to lead or return home to safety. Artemisia's view is that leadership is proven through deeds, which parallels Greek values, while Mardonius believes Xerxes is too royal to continue fighting personally.
01:14:56
Speaker
Meanwhile, Xioni's reflects on Spartan customs before battle, focusing on family, love, and duty. Ariti, Dinahki's wife, reveals her internal conflict torn between love and duty and her past love for Dinahki's.
01:15:09
Speaker
And finally, the Spartans arrive at Thermopylae. They rebuild the wall and prepare for the Persians. Themes of fear and courage are explored, with Leonidas and Dynakis teaching the Spartans how to face fear. Dynakis' lessons on courage highlight the value of leadership and composure under pressure, especially before battle. Okay, so the first set of questions is going to be about leadership and responsibility.
01:15:32
Speaker
In this book, Xerxes is torn between the responsibilities of a king and his own guilt and fear, whereas Leonidas leads by example, participating in manual labor and motivating his men through actions rather than words.
01:15:46
Speaker
question what do you guys think is the opposite of fear and how do you overcome fear Perhaps to help with the question or to elaborate on it, like from the context of the book. I really enjoyed this part by Dyna keys where he's like the opposite of fear and Spartan culture is you have counterpoises to it. So you have consequences to being fearful. So in Spartan culture and ah collectivist cultures where you're part of a unit, not an individual is worse to be dishonorable than it is to die.
01:16:21
Speaker
and creating that culture. So you're so afraid of dishonor that you don't fear death. But then he raises the point, he's like, is but is that courage is not acting out of fear of dishonor still in essence act acting out of fear. So you're replacing one type of fear with another.
01:16:41
Speaker
And it was just a really fascinating thing, right? Um, I was talking to a coworker just last week about how going back to leadership and interpersonal communication and dynamics, working with teams.
01:16:57
Speaker
the The primary driver of conflict in a work setting starts within yourself because you're primarily motivated out of fear. So maybe you're upset with something with a teammate or a boss and you don't address it because you're afraid of the repercussions of it.
01:17:18
Speaker
of What if it doesn't go well you know what i mean like you get you could like splice this and dice this in any which way and i just really enjoyed this part of the book where it's like how yeah how do you elevate beyond. Just fear in general not trading one fear for another to.
01:17:36
Speaker
to just get a different behavioral outcome, but inside you, how do you rise above fear itself? So that's kind of the background of your question, I think in the context of the book, but I don't have an answer to your question. what the so No, that's good. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer, a question and the book didn't actually give a clear answer either.
01:18:04
Speaker
Danike said he will tell us later. He talked about how courage looks different for men and women in Spartan culture, too. Like women have more courage because they are wives, mothers to these boys, these men, these warriors, and just watching them march off to war, not knowing if they're ever going to come back again. So they're just raising them, raising these warriors to go die.
01:18:35
Speaker
essentially. And they stand there watching, and these Spartan women are not crying at all as they march off to war. And so that takes a lot of courage. Like your natural instinct as a mother is to love and protect your kids, right? And you're just watching them walk off to probably die. And that takes a lot of courage. I love that part of the book and how he talks about women in this book, or the Spartan women. And it's like,
01:19:05
Speaker
The men's courage isn't really that courageous because we're kind of born to fight. You know, they're born to be warriors, they're born to fight. So when they go off to war, they're just doing what they were born to do. Whereas the women are born to nurture and to love. So when their son or husband goes off to war, they have to do the opposite of what they were born to do. You know, that's it's that's the that's where Dineke's is like,
01:19:31
Speaker
Who's the most courageous person? My wife, basically. That's what he says. And they're like getting ready for battle. And he says the most courageous person he knows is his wife. That was really cool. Yeah. But maybe hope would be the opposite of fear.
01:19:50
Speaker
And he kind of mentions that Paul and Nike's is a really good example of the Spartan warrior for one, but he's not afraid to die whatsoever. And he's one of the best warriors, one of the best athletes Sparta has ever seen. And he's, he does not show fear, but his hope is for glory in battle. And he kind of puts too much emphasis on that. So that can also be a bad thing.
01:20:20
Speaker
Hoping for too much glory, I guess, personally, I guess is what I got out of that part. But you could have hope for other things too, as Christians hope for the future with Christ in the perfect world. If you have strong enough hope, you can overcome fear. But when you put that hope in, you can it could be good or bad. You could be seen as crazy if your hope isn't the wrong thing.
01:20:49
Speaker
Or it doesn't align with other people's beliefs. Yeah. I think as as I'm thinking about this, I think it's worth clarifying. I don't think the goal is to eradicate fear. I'm thinking of that rock climber who. Alex Honnold. Yeah. His, uh, his amygdala does not function properly. So he does not feel fear physiological issue that he has.
01:21:17
Speaker
Yes. Or it's just like, Oh, I'm just going to climb this mountain. It is what it is, you know, without any ropes. So ah part of our body working properly is to trigger fear. So I think it's like a clarifying, it you know, more I think about it, perhaps Dyna keys was trying to eradicate fear. But I think the question is, how can you eradicate a negative response to fear?
01:21:44
Speaker
which is fleeing the battlefield or running away or not speaking up or whatever it is. And, and, um, yeah, Matt, I think what you said is, is pretty spot on. This is a funny, uh, the, the movie, uh, it's not called live die repeat, but that's always what I think it's called with Tom Cruise and Emily blunt. And I know it's like the edge of tomorrow.
01:22:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's a funny movie to quote in this situation. I guess it's not because they're fighting and most likely going to die, almost certainly going to die. And the commander at the beginning says, uh, spoiler alert. Well, he just says, um, where there is no fear, there is no opportunity for courage.
01:22:32
Speaker
And I thought that was really cool. That always stuck with me since I watched that. So I think the the question is how do you, when you're confronted with fear, respond the positive way. And yeah, I think that goes to having your identity or your confidence, your faith in something that is sure and steadfast, right? So.
01:22:54
Speaker
if If jesus is the example he was plenty fearful but made choices based out of the identity of of who he was his godson to do what he was called to do. Despite that fear yeah i just felt like clarifying that of like no it's it's a good thing to feel fear.
01:23:16
Speaker
But ah the goal of not cratering and caving into your fears, but facing them and overcoming them when they need to be overcome with courage.
01:23:29
Speaker
One just kind of quick thing that I want to note just on just the general topic of fear. I mean, fear is not really a word that we use a lot, societally, culturally, I think. But I think we use another word a lot that means that we're kind of using it for the same thing and that we're just anxious or anxiety. I feel like I've even tried to. This has been something i've I feel like I've been in the past couple of years. I've tried to change my vernacular when I feel anxious and I've tried to acknowledge the times where I'm actually just fearing something.
01:23:59
Speaker
And I think for me, it's been helpful because I think fear feels like something that you can overcome, whereas anxiousness feels like something that happens to you. And so I feel like acknowledging the difference there. And and it's a very oversimplified axiom, but the axiom of fear is false evidence about reality. I think it's so simple, but yet wise when it comes to the topic where it's like, I think a lot of times for me, when I'm having a lot of fear, it's about things that I think might happen.
01:24:28
Speaker
There's real things that are scary when they're happening, but I think it's how and how we perceive them. You know, I think of, it's like someone has a, like somebody loves me, you know, or maybe yourself has a really bad, like awful, like maybe like even a cancer diagnosis. It's like, yes, you can be fearful, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to be fully wrapped up in that. um And that fear can take different forms. It's good.
01:24:54
Speaker
All right, the next set of questions are about love and duty. So I read a story of love for Dinokis versus her duty to her first husband touches on the tension between personal desires and larger responsibilities. Her internal conflict mirrors the greater battle the Spartans face, the struggle between duty to the state and personal emotions. How do you balance love and duty in her own life? Do you feel the tension between personal desires and responsibilities in your relationships?
01:25:24
Speaker
Well, before answering that question, I think this section of the book confirms my theory that Diana Keys lied about yeah having the kid. Yes.
01:25:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's not a theory or spot on. Yeah. They, it was addressed spot on when she's like, the gods are so cruel. Like she had not considered the fact that if she did that and he admitted that he'd get chosen for the 300. So yeah, this spot on. So it was a lie.
Love, Duty, and Marriage
01:25:59
Speaker
So I'll share something pretty ah pretty vulnerable, I guess. I think some some of you may know, but the example that I can think of between love and duty is marriage and how the feeling of love can be is you know fleeting, right? Like it's an emotional state.
01:26:20
Speaker
But love as a verb is a choice, an act of duty, I guess you could say. And there were a couple moments, there was like one very obvious moment where I almost like literally like blew up the our relationship, like blew up in our face before we even got engaged. But I basically got cold feet and communicated that.
01:26:46
Speaker
But then I also got like cold feet while we were engaged. And I remember my dad talking to me when and things kind of blew up in my face and he was like, teaching me in that moment. And he he goes, he was talking about the emotional part of it and the commitment. And I'll never forget. He's like, if if you are going to like go back and pursue her and like apologize for what you've done, you can't do this again.
01:27:17
Speaker
So if you go and try to make things right, you gotta like make it up in your mind now, even though you're not married, even though you haven't proposed that you're going to commit yourself to her. Cause it's like too hurtful to do that to her. I think at once, but especially a second time, it's just not going to happen. And yeah, there were moments, uh, thankfully she forgave me and we got engaged and now we've been married 10 years.
01:27:44
Speaker
And there were times even in the engagement where I'd get like very afraid where I was like, Oh my gosh, like is, am I making the right decision? Am I rushing this? And I remember that conversation with my dad and I was like going into the wedding day. It was like a lot different experience for me than probably.
01:28:09
Speaker
You guys experienced on your wedding day, maybe not, but probably most people where it's just, it was a great day. Wedding was great, but leading up to it, I, there was some fear and it was like, no, like I, I made this promise when I asked her to marry me and I, I committed myself. And then when we got married, we had a a rough.
01:28:29
Speaker
uh, first year and rough several years here and there. And it's like, no, there is a, there is a duty. I, there are a lot of times where I would feel like leaving or backing out or whatever, but I'm not going to let my, my emotions are not going to drive my decision. Like this is a duty that I have. And, you know, Lord willing will be married another 10 years and beyond that.
01:28:54
Speaker
But it's like, okay, we've made it 10 years. Like that's, that's something there's some evidence of, of actually walking the walk, not talking to talk about duty and stuff like that. And perhaps if people viewed it like that more, again, I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything. I've clearly made a lot of mistakes and stuff, but viewing marriage as a duty, perhaps there'd be less divorce and broken relationships.
01:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think duty is is not really a word that we talk about a lot these days. I think it feels like a dirty word and I guess some could say argued is a dirty word. That's exactly what I was thinking this whole time.
01:29:35
Speaker
ah
01:29:38
Speaker
yeah o o do you like that yeah ah I'm not even joking. all i we're We are rebuking our children for saying at dinner and all the time, you're a duty head. And now and then you talk to them about their duty, like what your duty is. my yeah But yeah, I think individualism is so big right now, like culturally speaking, that thought that we would have duties for people I think can feel essentially like negative to our very self. It's oppressive.
01:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good. Yeah, that that to have a duty is oppressive. And I think that what I find over and over again in my life is that Matt is on one the night. I think what I find over and over again in my life is that where my to my actions are associated with my duties.
01:30:37
Speaker
See, my actions are associated with my duties and I think that in the way that I act, like that's where my emotions then follow. you know um Marriage is a great obviously a great example for this. So if I serve my wife and I do things like give her a foot massage or if I spend time sitting down talking with her for a while, even though those are things I and know I should want to do, there are certain times where those are just challenging and those are more of duties. But then when you actually do those things, then the affection, the love follows.
01:31:10
Speaker
and Again, I think it has to do with when we get kind of outside of that individual mindset that we can often be in. And I think too, it's like we have we can have competing duties that compete for this too. And I don't know if Adam, that was what you were kind of thinking when you initially asked this, where you know my duty to to work and to be a working person can interfere with my my marriage at times. but my duty to work helps my marriage also because it helps us our forward life. you know It's been time to get together to sit down and record this podcast. It's something that I like to do, I want to do, but you know and in ways I view it as a duty in which sometimes it causes increased stress for Ruth.
01:31:51
Speaker
um But yet she wants me to do it because she knows that it's good, you know? And so I think that, you know, you really got to link those responsibilities with the things that you love, the things that you care for. And so if you're trying to take on tasks and actions associated with the ones you love or the things that you love, then our sense of duty then becomes more worthwhile. It's good stuff. My perspective on this is a little different now because I'm dating, but this girl that I'm currently dating, we we currently do have these intense feelings of love right now. And so it's definitely it's a hard balance right now, because we need to work, but we want to spend all this time together, kind of live far apart, but we like have those intense feelings of love. So we want to spend a lot of time together. So it's like, do we sacrifice a little bit of sleep, maybe a little bit of work performance, like we can spend more time together. That's
01:32:48
Speaker
Definitely something that we're gonna have to work on. But yeah, no, I agree a lot wholeheartedly with you both about love being a choice. Being in love and love are totally different. and In love is like the emotional like, man, this is new. This is like we have these intense, hard feelings like we just want to.
01:33:08
Speaker
Kiss and you know, like I don't know but that's not always there Whereas like love is this constant choice where every day you wake up and you choose that I love that person So regardless of if you hate them that day but Yeah yeah So to recap today's discussion, we talked about leadership encourage not being about being fearless, but about overcoming fear and taking responsibility. Love and duty often conflict, but both play critical roles in shaping character and life decisions. We encourage you listeners to reflect on your own experiences with these things. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
01:33:47
Speaker
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01:34:10
Speaker
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Reunion and Emotional Conflict
01:34:25
Speaker
There's in the section that we learned that Zioni's also got to see Diomache again. He is sent on an unknown errand by Dionychis to Athens just before leaving for Thermopylae. Here he is surprised to be reacquainted with Diomache. Now 24, she is married with two young girls, but it seems the life has been hard for her. She appears to look 40 and is living in a place for a woman to live where a penniless and have been put out by their husbands.
01:34:51
Speaker
She has lost her former youthful beauty, and it seems that her life did not pan out the way she imagined it to. She shares with Zione's a vision that she had during a near-death experience years ago. She notes that she saw a goddess standing over her. The goddess had a veil on, and when she removed it, the amici states that what she saw was beauty beyond beauty. She saw that this extreme beauty as being alone real, more real than anything else on earth.
01:35:17
Speaker
She felt that this beauty she perceived was always with us, but we are too blind to see it. Through this vision she perceived that her rule on earth, the shadowed and sorrow bound side of the veil from the vision, was to embody those qualities that arise from beyond and are on both sides of the veil. Those qualities being selflessness, compassion, love,
01:35:38
Speaker
She notes that this goddess that she saw was Persephone, the Greek goddess who was captured and forced to marry Hades, god of the underworld. Persephone was forced to live half of her time roaming the earth, the other half with Hades and the underworld. Diamaki states that is this goddess whose mystery she serves. Zione's time with Diamaki ends with him asking her to run away with him. She refuses accepting her current lot in life, stating we are where we must be and we will do what we must.
01:36:07
Speaker
So what are your guys thoughts on this interaction? First off, what does put out by their husbands mean? So from my understanding, and correct me if you want to say this differently, basically this is a place where it's like, it's women who never got married or women who were married and were essentially deemed to be like unfit by their, by their husband, or that husband maybe no longer desired her. Or there's some that even, ah they even referenced it to be almost, almost kind of like an asylum in a sense.
01:36:39
Speaker
I'm really glad that we got to see some more of Diamache, because she's been mentioned throughout the book. It's pretty sad that this is how her life ended up. She's basically in a convent with her kids and has really no hope for ever getting married again, because she's still technically married, I think, but her husband just never comes and sees her. And so she's just devoted her life to the goddess Persephone. But I think it's good we got some closure between her and Zioni's desires, really. When I was reading it, I was like, I'm hoping they end up together somehow. I know it's not going to happen because we already know the story based on the first few pages of the book, but you still, as a reader, you want to, you hope that they get together because of Zioni's love for her. And to that note, so do you agree with Diamaki's perception of the world? No, I don't.
01:37:37
Speaker
because I don't believe in Greek mythology and their gods. Easy combo. All right, I'll be a little contrarian because I feel like the emotion since we were talking last episode about emotion and love and duty, the old duty. And I just like, OK, emotionally, it's like, oh, man, they're they're back together. First off, back then was just population so much smaller that it's just normal to want to marry your cousin.
01:38:12
Speaker
I'm not depending on what state you live in. It's still. No, no, no. I'm being serious. Like, is that is it? I think that would have probably been like even a good thing in that period. Like you're like, oh, keeping the bloodline clean. I think it is more acceptable back in the day.
01:38:28
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And then, um, but you know, the previous book, Diana keys talks about fear and how, you know, the women like our fear. I dunno. We just, we talked about all that and he is married.
01:38:46
Speaker
And he's, he's ah Diana. He's squire who lied about having an affair. And everyone's like, no, no, no. This is the most upright guy. Like he is the squire to the most upright dude in Sparta. And on a whim, he's like, let's go and get married. And you leave your husband. I mean, I know her situation's different, but he's like married with two young kids.
01:39:11
Speaker
So as on the emotional side, like I think like his desire is good in the sense that he wants to rescue his cousin from this hellhole.
01:39:23
Speaker
fully on board with that, but you didn't, you don't have to like, let's go back to the woods when we were kids and just like be savages again. And so I'm glad Diamaki said no for multiple reasons, but it was like, Hey, why don't you come back to Lake Damon with me and like live in my house and raise your kids in a safe place or something like that. You know, I just as much as I was, yes, the the romance side of the story. And yeah, it was absolutely heartbreaking. Again, this book is like very sad. Like there's there's a lot of like good things to glean, but most people are dead or and in a state of dying. Like she's just had a
01:40:09
Speaker
a very traumatic life. Her parents are murdered. She was brutally gang-raped. And then she kind of gets screwed by her husband and li and is an asylum. So it's it just made me really sad. And at the same time, I don't want to necessarily be like, oh, man, I wish they had i wish she had said yes, because it's like, wait a minute. we Then I'm happy that he isn't fulfilling his duty to his own wife.
01:40:38
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? There's some conflict. like There's some tension, for sure. You just reminded me that in the previous book, a readie was talking to Zioni's and telling him to go see his cousin. She was telling him, almost ordering him, to leave his wife.
01:41:01
Speaker
and go actually leave the war also to run away to go and be with his cousin and get married to her. And she was kind of offended when he said to her, that would be dishonorable. Yeah. And then we see him actually in person with Diamaki, and he completely changes his mind in the moment after he sees her.
01:41:28
Speaker
Maybe it's just the childhood emotions that got brought up, the nostalgia, seeing her in person, but he's a different person when he sees her. His choices are different.
01:41:42
Speaker
based on what he's had to a Reedy versus when he's with Dayumaki. Well, yeah, I feel like it's interesting. They're trying to force that to happen, but yeah, obviously, it's easy to see. It's like, yeah, if the situation's in front of you, like emotions will often trump the more noble cause or more than noble hope. But I think, you know Matt, I know you your perception, you're you don't agree at all with with her, but I thought what I really kind of liked about that interaction character is just the level of contentedness and really this concept that she brings up it's that life is very hard and there's a lot of hard things that happen but like it doesn't mean that there's not like these eternal things that like these kind of glimpses of ah really it's like glimpses of glory of like glimpses of something better
01:42:31
Speaker
And as a Christian, I believe that concept, that the idea that obviously this is kind of looking at it from a different world view, different perspective, but the idea that, you know, there's a lot of messiness in the world, but yet there still can be these very beautiful things that happen. And this beauty is always around us. And, you know, when I say this beauty, these goodness really is kind of what we're talking about.
01:42:52
Speaker
And I think that, you know, from this interaction, him wanting her and her kind of shutting down, it's like the idea, the importance of contentness. And like, she feels a responsibility to her life that she's had this far, responsibility to her husband that has left her. um And she too, for him, feels that he has a responsibility to fight still. Yeah, I should have clarified. I don't agree with her worldview, but I do agree with a lot of the concept that we are to embody the good things. There's a ah spiritual realm versus earthly realm. And as Christians, we are supposed to embody those good qualities and bring them to the side of the veil in her words. I love that imagery. Like this, ah what was what was the exact quote? The shadowed and sorrow bound side of the veil. That's what we're living in.
01:43:49
Speaker
And I do think we are in our places for a reason, call it fake, call it Providence, whatever. But I think overall where we are in life is part of a bigger plan.
01:44:05
Speaker
So last thing I want to discuss regarding book six was on leadership. So in this section we see various examples of leadership. Danikis comforts Alexandros as he falls into his lap weeping after the first day of battle. King Leonidas inspires his men to battle for country and family. Palanikis asks ah Alexandros for forgiveness in the former ways that he treated him.
01:44:26
Speaker
and Dionychis in the way that he encourages men when other Greeks start to desert the battle. So ah did any of these examples of leadership stick out to you guys in particular? And what character traits do you feel are most important in the leader?
01:44:41
Speaker
Dyna keys because the reverse psychology and the foresight, it was like just incredible where he calls everybody else out. Like, Hey, you all are just as afraid and you all have had the same thoughts of running back home to your mommies. So don't just like cry out for blood when you've felt the same way. And then someone's like, well, yeah, but we've stayed.
01:45:07
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, you know what? You're right. You guys have stayed good for you. So let's watch these guys leave. How shameful is that? You know, going back to the dishonor, like it's worse to be dishonorable than it is to be alive.
01:45:20
Speaker
and like watching them leave. And then he's like, everyone else who's here wants to be, oh, oh, and then Leonidas, no Leonidas was the one that almost followed Dyna Key soon. He's like, he stopped having guards at the end of the encampment.
01:45:38
Speaker
so that people could desert if they wanted to. So he's like, all right, don't let those three go. I guess we should just stop trying to patrol these guys. But the idea, it was the foresight of we know who's in, who's here to fight. We don't have any people who are half in half out. If you want to leave, you can leave. And I just thought that was brilliant because logic would say, no, no, no, you have to exert your control. You have to be an authority and control this how you want it to be. But similar to the Xerxes, where people are just kind of fighting because they're kind of forced to, or, you know, or else, sorry what's a good point which side of the fear of coin are you going to play? And it's like, you can leave.
01:46:27
Speaker
It's gonna be super dishonorable, or you can stay. And you know that if you're staying, that makes that bond even tighter with that group. And that just was an incredible scene. Did anybody read, see the ah quote on page 281 where it says, the best service only for you, my foreskin.
01:46:49
Speaker
That's all I have to add tonight. You whack at two D's. You remember that part?
01:46:59
Speaker
There's so many stories like, yeah, when they were swimming in the lake and they're like, Hey, I'm going to marry this girl. i' and And it's like, yeah, they're just teenage boys talking about girls and like a bunch of grown men. And it's like, yeah, they're, they're just a bunch of guys with, you know, just like today or whatever. It's like, Oh, that's, I mean, like, I'm sure there are examples, but in the fraternity, a guy who wasn't in the fraternity, but will like come around during rush or was one of the guys friends and was just like hilarious that everyone liked. Do you know what I mean? Like, Oh yeah. You're part of the crowd, even though you're not a ah member or whatever, just cause you're just so funny or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like that's what it made me think of where it's like, yeah, this guy's part of the group. This guy's hilarious because of that one embarrassing thing. Yeah. I really like Leonidas, how he's portrayed in this book. He's just an incredible leader, incredible warrior. He is so smart, but so down to earth, humble, but also inspiring and reading about him in the actual battle. Oh, actually, even before the battle, when they were trying to decide how and where to build the wall, to rebuild that wall.
01:48:15
Speaker
And all these engineers, all these architects are arguing about the best place to put it, which angle to put it at. And Leonidas just takes off his shirt and starts stacking stones. He didn't say anything. He just walks up, starts stacking stones in a spot. And then everyone is silent just watching him. And someone from the crowd is like,
01:48:42
Speaker
Are you guys going to let them build this all by yourself? Get to it. Let's get to work. And then he's walking around like the camp and talking to everyone that he's close to, learning their names, telling jokes. Even people who are not a part of the Spartan army, the other Greek cities, he's learning their names. He's being very friendly to them and and inspiring courage. He's so inspiring.
01:49:12
Speaker
And it's just an awesome example of servant leadership from someone that people really look up to. Obviously he's king, so people are going to listen to him no matter what, but he does it in such a ah humble way. It's really cool. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
01:49:30
Speaker
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Speaker
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01:50:28
Speaker
you know yeah And now back to the show book seven Leonidas. I want everyone to do their best to think of Gerard Butler. Think of him right now and then discard that image and don't think of it ever again for the rest of this conversation. I was thinking of him in PS. I love you.
01:50:52
Speaker
yeah Yeah, whatever image you think of Leonidas, try to discard that image. This book paints a much more amazing picture of Leonidas. And I'm going to recap this book now and get into some excellent, what I feel like are excellent questions. I'm probably biased because I am seeing the episode. I do imagine that Leonidas in this book would have six pack abs like in the movie.
01:51:22
Speaker
Okay, imagine someone like Gerard Butler who's not Irish trying to impersonate an American accent as a Greek. He's a jacked Okay, so the book, it details the actual raid of Xerxes camp and their attempt to secretly assassinate Xerxes.
01:51:44
Speaker
So in in the context of the Spartans, they're not going to retreat, so they either need to win the battle or die trying. And being so vastly outnumbered, as we've discussed, one way to win this battle is to cut off the figurative head of the snake, which is Xerxes.
01:52:01
Speaker
In this book, Rooster, the you know person who has a whole book titled after him earlier in a previous episode, you can learn more about him. He returns. He has fled the Persian camp, so he was released from the Spartans to fight in the Persian army. He actually flees there, has a change of heart, and he comes to the Spartans And once again, avoids execution and says, Hey, I know where Xerxes camp is in a secret way to get there for us to kill him. They decide to trust rooster. They go on this epic climb in the mountains, hike through the night. And again, they're injured. Diana keys has lost an eye, all these things. They eventually make it to the camp. So rooster.
01:52:51
Speaker
holds true to his word and successfully navigates them to where Xerxes is staying. So imagine a very intense night raid. Lots of people are killed in their sleep. A lot of Persians are assembled to battle haphazardly in a daze. And in this story, the Spartans almost get to Xerxes. But just as they're lining up in their battle formation to do one final charge against the few soldiers that are between them and Xerxes,
01:53:19
Speaker
A bunch of, I guess he brought exotic birds from all over the world of his conquests with him. They all like fly into the air and just like cause mass chaos. The book describes it that these birds more or less save Xerxes life because they disrupt the battle formations.
01:53:38
Speaker
So what that does is that causes chaos on the Spartan side and almost everyone dies except a handful of Spartans. And speaking of handful, Alexandros gets his hand chopped off. Diana keys calls then for a retreat with the dying and injuries.
01:53:55
Speaker
The Spartans do escape and you're probably thinking, how is that even possible? Well, this isn't 2024 where there's led lights everywhere. This is in the middle of nowhere. It's dark and the Spartans basically take their clothing off, identifying them as Spartans. And so they blend in with everyone else. There's a ton of different nation states from all over the world that Xerxes is captured and commissioned to fight for him. So people don't really recognize them when they're not in their Spartan gear.
01:54:25
Speaker
So they end up soliciting some other people for help. They help cauterize Alexandra's hand and try to get him healthy. It doesn't work. He actually dies. Very sad. But Diana Keys, suicide, Paula Nikes, Ziones and Rooster do survive the raid. They retreat into the darkness back through the mountains and make it back to camp.
01:54:50
Speaker
So with the failed attempt to assassinate Xerxes, Leonidas realizes, all right, we're going to have to fight to our death. And he releases the other Greek city state armies who have come to return home. They've held up their end of the bargain. They have successfully held off the Persians long enough to allow the greater Greek armies to mobilize. So the Spartans stay.
01:55:14
Speaker
as well as the thespians, the thespians, they reject Leonidas's order and fight alongside them. For roosters, active redemption and heroism, Leonidas grants rooster spartan freedom, which if you recall, that is a big deal.
01:55:34
Speaker
and not something that Rooster should take lightly, and Rooster does decide to return home because he's a helot, so he's allowed to return home because he's not Spartan. The Spartans stay. Leonidas also tells the Spartans squires, again, they're not Spartan descent. They're granted their freedom. They can leave, although many stay, including Ziones, by their master's side.
01:56:02
Speaker
The book finishes with an open mic of sorts where Leonidas opens the floor to all of the soldiers and men who are still alive, who will fight in this one last battle. They give one final word, one final hoorah speech to the group prior to the fight leading to their eventual death. All right, on the last page of this book,
01:56:26
Speaker
Leonidas talks about people coming to visit Thermopylae someday to learn about what the Spartans did. And he even uses times 2,000, 3,000 years later. And he says in quotes, men 100 generations yet unborn. That really stuck out to me because we're reading the book in 2024. So it was about 2,500 years after this took place.
01:56:51
Speaker
So oftentimes, at least for me, we often think of the present day and our very direct descendants, like our own kids. But what do you all want to be true of yourself? And we'll just, you know, Spartan, the Spartans are very communal based. So let's talk about it as a group. What do you want to be true of yourself and us that is passed down and learned from 2000 years from now?
01:57:18
Speaker
The previous amount of time I've heard was, what do you want true 300 years from now? And I'm like, 300 years? And then this book upped the ante to 2,000 to 3,000 years. And so what are things like we do now that people could look on in 2000 years and take from? That has to, it can't just be us or like me. It has to be all of us. Oh, it can be you. However you want to answer the question.
01:57:44
Speaker
ah yeah I was talking to Sarah about this question actually before I jumped on and I was like, I'm going to be known as the strongest listener to have ever lived like by far. She's like, well, what if you have a son? And I'm like, oh, crap, you're right. He might be stronger. Just the next generation. I think the cynic in me thinks like, oh, two to three thousand years from now, it's not going to be as much about the individual unless you are great, but it's going to be like how the society was. Right. And I think men from our current society would be viewed in two to three thousand years from now in a lot of ways.
01:58:22
Speaker
could be very disappointing and also like not what I wouldn't want to be aligned with. And so I think for me with this question, it's kind of hard to like get outside of like, we just know the famous people right from two
Legacy and Societal Memory
01:58:34
Speaker
3000 years ago. So it is harder to like think about what it looks like to have your own personal legacy that lasts so long.
01:58:42
Speaker
like I would say, you know, again, you mentioned them 300 years and makes it a little bit more tangible feeling. And I think my thought would be just related around the family of, you know, you spend your most time with your, your family than anyone. And so like, I would like to think that like, still,
01:59:00
Speaker
like, generationally, you know, Adam, you mentioned Flesner's, and it's like, I would think, like, I think, generationally, that, like, Stalins would still be around, and they'd be, you know, the Stalin families would be loving, kind, gracious, compassionate, essentially being like Jesus. Those would be, like, some of my main hopes and desires. I think outside of the context of thinking about just, like, my personal family, it's harder to see my personal influence in the future, though.
01:59:26
Speaker
Hey, the Spartans are are remembered for the 300 and the larger battle and war they fought. So yeah, Leonidas is remembered. But when I was doing some research on this, a lot of other people aren't confirmed to be like, we don't know a ton of people's names from what I understand. They're my quick Wikipedia. Now, what do you you have any thoughts? Yeah, I do.
01:59:54
Speaker
So we've been going through revelation in our church the last several weeks, and we've been really doing it kind of a deep dive into the seven churches from Revelation two and three. And those churches are about 2000 years old. And so it just got me thinking if we could be remembered for something kind of like those churches, I would want it to be the good things. One of the key themes is patient endurance.
02:00:22
Speaker
and faithfulness and staying true to Jesus. So if we could be remembered as a society, that's not gonna happen. If we could be remembered for those things that we were faithfully, patiently enduring for Christ, that'd be pretty cool. People could learn from us good things, bad things about this time and this era. And if it could be said that we endured and we didn't waver in our faith I think that would be the most, the most exciting thing as a collective society personally. life And then for me, I think it'd be really cool to keep my mom's family name going. So I think you all know my mom's maiden name, Wulan, after her generation is not going to be passed down anymore. And it's really sad to me. It's only a two generation name and we're really proud of it. We really like it. There's a lot of,
02:01:22
Speaker
very hard, but cool family history with that name. And I would like to see it passed on. Love it. You guys have a lot of good things. You know, it doesn't seem like big deals right now, but it it is interesting to me thinking of other books we've read, like Anxious Generation or blue zones or the comfort crisis. And we kind of joke like have you seen that that movie, Wally, that Pixar movie? one of the best movies ever made. It is actually people can't even like walk subjective truth that that's the best. It's like, yeah, in some way, it almost feels like we're heading that way, right? Or eventually, we're going to become so comfortable, we're just gonna sit in floating chairs and physically, our bodies will atrophy and not be able to walk.
02:02:17
Speaker
And I think of things like anxious generation and wait until eighth. That doesn't seem like a Leonidas Spartan thing to fight for, but you know, one of the books that we were considering reading for season seven was about the declining, uh, fertility rates and how like is humanity going to survive if like we're on the path of like having less and less children. And at least in the United States.
02:02:47
Speaker
And I do wonder, looking back, it's like, hey, there was a group of people, the church, this book club, whatever, that decided to not give their kids cell phones until eighth grade or whatever it is.
02:03:04
Speaker
and their kids developed in a way and, you know, like we find out all this continued science through the years or had people continue to have shorter and shorter attention spans and become more and more isolated and these guys decided to buck that trend and spend long form time together and talk to each other about how they're actually doing.
02:03:26
Speaker
Who knows? It seems kind of trivial and almost funny to say, but I think we also are very fortunate because I don't think this is normal what we do for the vast majority of men in our larger society. So who knows?
02:03:42
Speaker
It's fun to think about though, because I agree. I feel a little cynical to him like 3000 years, 2000 years. Come on. It's like, well, we're talking about the Spartans. You know, I'm reading the story of Abraham to my kids. It's like some people are remember 2000 3000 years later. It's a thing. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Do your friends like to tickle you in spots? They know they shouldn't. Do you say you are having a hard time breathing just to get out of the misery?
02:04:12
Speaker
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02:04:40
Speaker
And now back to the show. in this book. Siones details the final battle at the hot gates where every Spartan and Thespian perish. Save Siones himself since he is recounting the entire book. At this point in the book the Persians are now losing the battle at sea.
02:05:00
Speaker
Ziones' health is failing, but he has strength to tell one last story, how Leonidas chose the 300. We had not learned his methodology for choosing, and the Persians really wanted to know themselves at this point.
02:05:17
Speaker
The scene shifts to Lady Paralea's home, where Leonidas and his wife, the Queen Gorgo, visit her in her grief. Paralea had just learned that both her husband, Olympias, and her son, Alexandros, were selected as two of the 300. So that means she'd lose both of them simultaneously.
02:05:38
Speaker
Leonidas shares that he, quote, chose them, the the Spartan men, not for their own valor, but for that of their women. When the 300 die and all of Greece look at Sparta, they will look to the women's response. If they are steadfast and embrace the honor of what the battle stood for, then all of Greece will respond accordingly.
02:06:01
Speaker
Ziones then dies. In a twist, Orantes, the Persian captain, who is overseeing his capture, his captivity, he ends up paying three Greeks in the city that they're in, who are plundering the ransacked city, because again, the Persians are losing the battle.
02:06:21
Speaker
things are just in mass chaos, the Greeks are taking back the land, and Arantes pays these guys to stop ransacking the city and return Ziones' body to the same convent that Diamache lives in. He pays them handsomely and they do it. The book ends with the story focusing on the historian who wrote down Ziones' retelling of the entire story, which is this book.
02:06:51
Speaker
The Persians fall, Xerxes retreats, and the historian's station was overrun by Greek helots. Right as the historian was about to be killed, in his desperation he started yelling out every Spartan name he had learned from Zionis' story. The helots stop from killing him and bring him to a spartan rooster rooster corroborated the historians claim that he knew zionis as zionis his body and his ashes indeed were returned to leg damon by a priestess of the temple so i presume that is diamaki herself
02:07:33
Speaker
The last paragraphs detail how after the war, Spartan women were taken to the battlefield afterwards to gather any remains of the fallen Spartans and pay tribute. At the battlefield, an epitaph was engraved in stone that said, quote, Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie. End quote.
02:07:59
Speaker
So with that, we have read another book. Book eight, Thermopylae was moving and gripping to the very end with several different storylines being tied together. Which character do you most identify with? And perhaps another way to answer it, or part two of the question, which character do you want to most identify with? And I'll start it off. I would say I most identify with Alexandros.
02:08:27
Speaker
I think he is kind of the odd duck of the 300. It kind of chronicles how he's like part of the group, but he's just like a little bit different.
02:08:39
Speaker
And I, I've shared with you guys sometimes I like, I can feel like that where it's like, yeah, man, I can, I can play sports. I can fit in and most ways, but then there's a lot of ways where I i can kind of feel like a fish out of water or just different. Right. And Alexandra's example, he was always a truth teller, never went along with like the sarcasm line. He was just like, no, I'm going to tell the truth. I, I hate death. It scared me.
02:09:06
Speaker
and he liked art and stuff. I'm not super artsy, so I'm not saying I i align with all of his personality types, but more of just like that, like I was the guy in the football locker room that was just kinda felt like the the odd man out or whatever. And so I identified with a lot with that, and I really enjoyed how he pushed through some of his barriers of like, man, war, that was tough to see, but this is what I'm called to do, so I'm still gonna do it.
02:09:35
Speaker
I thought that was really cool. So I really liked Alexandra's. All right, Garrett, your other question, though, which character do you want to most identify with? Yeah, I feel like that one's probably going to be a little bit more unanimous. People are going to say Leonidas or Diana Keys or something like that. But answer however you want. Yeah, this is the the mic is yours.
02:09:55
Speaker
I am Leonidas, actually, reincarnated. The Gerard Butler version, though, not the old man version. I think, ah for me, probably Zione's. I think that Zione spends a lot of time thinking about what he wants to become and doesn't necessarily do that. I think that he he has these goals and aspirations, and I think that sometimes kind of gets in the way of actually being those things and doing those things. He seems to be a little bit of a follower.
02:10:25
Speaker
I still think that he has like some, you know, noble and good values, but I think that compared to the other um individuals, I don't think that he stands as strong with things. And then I think for me, probably Dionychis is like the one where I would say like I'd aspire, like want to be like, and really it has probably most to do with, and I think I talked about it a couple of weeks ago.
02:10:48
Speaker
I think he truly represents and in this telling of the story like a whole man, like a well-rounded man, masculinity in strength, intelligence, wisdom, but also like emotional intelligence. Yeah, I mean, Diana Keys, from like a mentorship perspective, his wisdom and how he just kind of had good perspective on situations and how he cared so much for Alexandros as his mentor, as well as his girls, as a father, as a husband, how he was willing to take the fall to spare Rooster's baby, things like that. it was There were a lot of things that it's like, yeah I want that to be true of my life. I want to be known as someone who mentors and raises up other men not directly related to me, but then also really cares about my family.
02:11:38
Speaker
and is willing to perhaps have some stains on my public reputation if it means living with integrity and doing the right thing deep down. Let's say I relate most to a readie. Just kidding. Man, I thought you were about to say something serious, Fles. I would probably say Xerxes because he's a badass and he's the king of everything. Because he's a god.
02:12:08
Speaker
What about the wake up to these? Anyone relate to that guy? I think that was my character for Thomas. I think Thomas could be that guy. He's the vendor that goes around the Spartan camp and just is making everyone laugh. And he has that sign on his caravan or whatever that's like the best prices for you, my foreskin.
02:12:32
Speaker
name my friend ah like he says wake up two d I thought you were gonna say that the guy they called tripod
02:12:44
Speaker
Because no one can take him down, that's that's why that's why. Anyone else laugh at the name Elephantinos? Yes, I love that one too. No, but seriously, I think I relate mostly to Ziones just because of his dedication and loyalty. I think I'm a very loyal person and feel like ah he's very relatable, so it's easy to relate to that character the most.
02:13:06
Speaker
You know, he's just very loyal and dedicated to preserving like those around him. He's just a really cool character, but, uh, I really want to strive to be like Polly Niki's. Yeah. Hey, he's the, he's the fastest of all of them. strong Yeah. I just want to be super arrogant and then, you know, finally break down and cry. He's totally a bro. A lot of people would think you're cool. Are you being serious though? It's okay if you are.
02:13:35
Speaker
I'm serious about Zione's. I'm not serious about Pauline Niki's. I mean, he was a he was a really i mean an awesome character. And again, at the end, I thought it was really cool. Some of the things he did, I don't view him poorly. Yeah, I don't either. That's the book that I discussed. I've led was Pauline Niki's. So I thought it was cool. But I mean, I have to go with Leonidas. It's just his wisdom, obviously. The book version, not the not the movie version. His servant leadership, for sure.
02:14:01
Speaker
Yeah. So for the record, both Adams, you don't identify with zionis because you had very hardcore crushes on any of your cousins as a teenager.
02:14:15
Speaker
I mean, we all had, you know, I wanted to give you guys the opportunity to clear the air. We did both grow up in Fenton, so you never know. What are we talking here?
02:14:32
Speaker
I can't say who I feel like I'm most like, but I would say I thought Bruxious was an awesome character. I'm not gonna lie, I'm drawn a blank. Who was that again? He was the slave. The very beginning, like the mentor. The uncle. Yeah, I thought it was pretty amazing that as a slave, everybody gave him the most respect, shows how humbly he was.
02:14:54
Speaker
despite the fact that he was more skilled in a lot of ways than the folks that kind of ruled over him. They still respected him a ton, and he took those kids under his wing, you know, regardless of the circumstances as if they were his own. And I thought that was pretty cool. But if I had read more of the book, I would have a better answer. I think it's a great call, though. I forgot about him. And yeah, what he did, like, he saved those ZMAs in Daomike's life. So that's awesome. I've been going back and forth.
02:15:23
Speaker
But I probably had to land with Ziones. It was going to be Alexandros, but thinking about Ziones and his faith, how devoted he is to his faith and his love for archery. I'm a sucker for for a bow and arrow, and but he's just so loyal and devoted to the things that he cares about. And I admire that he's always trying to get better at what he does. He's athletically gifted.
02:15:54
Speaker
and talented and also a badass. He goes on that night raid, try to kill Xerxes, and yeah, he's just a really cool character. If I had to choose what I want to be like, there are two characters that were barely mentioned. They're like the brothers Alpheus and Maron, I think is their names.
02:16:16
Speaker
They were like up there with Paul Nikes as he's Olympic level athletes, incredible warriors, and they got to fight alongside King Leonidas. So I don't want to be in an actual leadership position. I'd rather have the honor of fighting for King Leonidas. That's why I wanted to ask that question because I felt like each of us might give different answers because there's so many characters with so many different legit character development. Love it. Love the diversity of answers.
02:16:46
Speaker
threesion is an Alexandros and a Bruxis and then aspire. We had a Diana keys, Leonidas, Alpheus. I love it. I love that. There's multiple characters to pull from.
02:17:00
Speaker
Just to wrap this up, any final thoughts on the book? Maybe share what your favorite part of the book was or anything, anything just to kind of summarize or recap the book and bring it to a conclusion. Yeah, I just thought this was such a really, really good book. I think my favorite overall part of the book was just overall imagery. You could just really get into the scenes of the book so easily and they're very vivid and descriptive and like the scene where alexandros gets his hand chopped off it's like you can literally like he puts you in that scene and you can see it happen it's like an almost in slow motion that scene that's how it was for me at least i would go with the imagery i really like the realism which i've mentioned before but
02:17:45
Speaker
how the author just makes it seem so real and physical. You really get to and understand how exhausting fighting in a war is and all the preparation that goes into it. And I think my one of my favorite parts is when Leonidas shows his servant leadership by just starting to build that wall.
02:18:08
Speaker
This picks up a stone and starts stacking him in the midst of everyone else quarreling and arguing. He shows his leadership just by doing.
02:18:20
Speaker
There's so many to choose from. One that stands out was Diana. He's handling of the three people that tried to flee from the Spartan camp to their own safety in the reverse psychology that he put, not just on them, but on the entire army of calling out what was going on in their, everyone's hearts and how everyone doesn't want to be there. They'd rather be safe and sound, but then also letting them desert the camp.
02:18:48
Speaker
and then letting anyone else desert the camp. And I think I can be a fairly controlling person where I'm like, I know what's best. If things just happen this way, whether it's parenting or at work or anything like that, I can just kind of be like, this is how it should be. So I'm going to try to puppeteer these people to do what I want because I know what's best. And Diana Keys basically gave up all control. And he was just like, all right, anyone can leave.
02:19:19
Speaker
And by doing that, he gave people the freedom to choose and the people that stayed, you knew they were the most loyal. They were there because they wanted to be.
02:19:30
Speaker
And they chose honor like you just knew who was there who had your side. And that just really spoke to me of like the paradoxical nature of that event of by seemingly releasing control was actually the best thing that could have happened from that point on for the Greeks and being unified in the fight from that point on.
02:19:54
Speaker
I was just impressed how in a book he was able to split up kind of the different times in which the, and and I guess the narration of it in a way that was so easily to understand. Because I think sometimes when storylines hop from time period to time period, or you you're in like kind of a space where the story's being told in present versus, you know, as a story.
02:20:19
Speaker
in the future. Sometimes it can it's easy to get lost, but I didn't necessarily feel like that was the case with this book. Yeah, for sure. I agree with that. I think one part that sticks out to me was, I think first to say, not typically the style of book that I read, definitely a challenging read for me. But one thing that stuck out to me was the exchange that Damaki and Zione's had whenever she's like off living in like the convent of sorts. And really where she's talking, and I talked about this a couple weeks ago, but where she's kind of talking about how there are these virtues, essentially, there's these things that
02:20:53
Speaker
are in the world, but they're not really of the world. And I think that it just fits well with the whole concept of the book of there's a lot of virtues that are discussed that are pretty high level virtues that we can't attain for a whole lifetime, but, you know, we can ah attain in moments or time periods. And I think too, with that that just the idea of like suffering with your like kind of current lot, I think I want to be content. And I think that contentment is very hard to deal with.
02:21:23
Speaker
People always want something different, want something better, but the idea of like being content with what I have and knowing that like your current situation is like shaping you into the person you're supposed to be. That's great. Thanks for sharing, guys.
02:21:38
Speaker
All right, so with that, that wraps up season six of the Books Brothers podcast. Join us for season seven, where we will read Endurance, Shackleton's Incredible Voyage, written by Alfred Lansing. This is a book recommended to us by Thomas. Thomas, can you share why you recommended this book and what you're looking forward to reading together?
02:22:06
Speaker
ah Yeah, I feel like we all really enjoyed reading River of Doubt which was another historical story based on a true story um with a lot of details of of what actually happened to to some of these wild explorers back in the day and I believe this is actually set in a pretty close to the time that the River of Doubt was was also happening. He referenced it in River of Doubt actually, she referenced it.
02:22:33
Speaker
Right, so I kind of got turned on to the idea of reading this book by Stalin actually because he said it was like one of the best stories that he had ever read in terms of like um stories about explorers. And to kind of sum it up, I'll just kind of read the synopsis here. In August 1914, polar explorer Ernest Shackleton boarded the Endurance, became locked in an island of ice. Thus began the legendary ordeal of Shackleton and his crew of 27 men When their ship was finally crushed between two ice flows, they attempted the near impossible journey over 850 miles of the South Atlantic's heaviest seas to the closest outpost of civilization, which just sounds absolutely brutal. So I feel like it should be a pretty intense book. And I also did a book report on Ernest Shackleton in third grade. So I've got to learn more about this guy. He was pretty cool guy, I think. So yeah, I'm excited for it.
02:23:32
Speaker
talk about full circle bringing it back Hopefully everybody enjoys it. Do you have that report? Could you read it to us to start off season seven? I'd love to hear a book report written by Thomas. My mom might have it at home. That'd be awesome. Yeah. Well, we're excited to read it. Excited for another book. River of doubt was incredible. So this is anything like it. It's going to be a really fun read.
02:24:17
Speaker
a year in review episode on New Year's Eve, and continue our discussion of endurance in 2025. If you have enjoyed listening or benefited from our conversation, please