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Manosphere or Manosfear? What’s Really Driving Men
128 Plays17 days ago
Why do so many men feel like their value has to be earned, proven, and constantly defended?
In this episode of The Men’s Collective Podcast, Travis Goodman sits down with writer and researcher Jim Chastain to unpack the deeper fear underneath the manosphere. Drawing from Jim’s article “Turns Out ‘Manosphere’ Might Be Misspelled. It should probably be Manosfear.” and Louis Theroux’s Into the Manosphere, this conversation explores why so many men organize their lives around performance, control, money, status, and attention instead of connection, honesty, and grounded strength.
Together, Travis and Jim explore how fear of weakness, fear of rejection, and fear of “not being enough” can drive men to chase worth through achievement, image, and domination. They talk about why the manosphere is so appealing to younger men, how control and clout can become substitutes for real self-worth, and why the promise of “living for yourself” often hides a deeper avoidance of vulnerability and responsibility.
This episode covers: Why men often feel they must prove their worth Why young men are drawn to manosphere content How fear of weakness shapes male behavior The connection between shame, control, and conditional worth Why revealing weakness can actually become strength What healthier masculinity looks like in real life
If you are interested in masculinity, men’s mental health, shame, self-worth, male loneliness, emotional resilience, or how to raise healthier boys and men, this episode will give you a deeper lens into what is really going on beneath the bravado.
If you want deeper coaching or therapy, visit travisgoodmanlmft.com.
[Life in Silico] by Scott Buckley – released under CC-BY 4.0. www.scottbuckley.com.au
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Transcript
Introduction to Men's Fears and Worth
00:00:00
Speaker
What if underneath all that bravado is a fear of not mattering, of not belonging? As I sat with Jim Chastain's Substack piece, turns out Manosphere might be misspelled. It should probably be Manosphere. And then I also watched Louis Thoreau's Into the Manosphere. There's a theme that stood out to me and that stuck with me. throughout both the reading and the watching, and that was that a lot of men seem to be living as if their worth has to be proved, it has to be achieved, it has to be earned. And whether or not we agree with that or not, I think it really touches something very deep for a lot of men.
00:00:39
Speaker
Because when worth is conditional, when worth has to be achieved, then we could see why men will look toward performance, control, perfection, achievement, rather than being really grounded in connection with others, in honesty and in strength.
Who is Jim Chastain?
00:00:56
Speaker
And today I am joined by Jim Chastain as we kind of explore his article along with the documentary. And Jim Chastain is a strategist, he's a researcher and a writer. He's been helping men move forward by sharing insights, strategies and tools we need to advance without feeling less of a man.
00:01:13
Speaker
He has over 30 years of experience and he's helped brand leaders understand and connect with people as human beings rather than consumers. He's been applying these skills to help men better connect with themselves, one another, and people who matter most to them.
00:01:26
Speaker
You can find him on his website at menmovingforward.com, his sub stack called stuff guys don't talk about, and his Instagram, which is at menmovingforwardfwd.
Understanding Men's Motivation and the Manosphere
00:01:38
Speaker
Hey, so Jim, so when you say manosphere might be really manosphere, what fear do you think is most underneath all of this? Well, I've talked to hundreds of guys, as I think you know, about their lives and about their inner lives, really. And and the thing that pretty much every single man that I've talked to, regardless of age, regardless of, uh,
00:02:09
Speaker
sexual orientation, geography, occupation, pretty much every man is motivated primarily by not revealing weakness.
00:02:24
Speaker
and And, what I saw in this, I mean, I expected to see these guys being really dominant and all of that and big personalities. what what I,
00:02:35
Speaker
what i heard and saw underneath all that was fear. Their fear. And, and it reinforced for me that, you know, we will do almost anything to avoid being seen as weak as men.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that was evident in the, in the documentary too, that I saw, um, pretty in your face. If you haven't seen it, definitely recommend go watching the documentary and also reading Jim's article here, but you definitely felt that in the presence when there was questions asked and you could kind of see the shifting, even body language. So it was pretty evident. evident and i know it's a somewhat of a small, um, S I,
00:03:17
Speaker
kind of research scale with the men that he interviewed but it was enough that you you got the sense of it like it was it was there it was i think pretty palatable in the sense like you felt it um and the nervousness behind um and then how that fear kind of interacts with everyone they interacted with like how does that interplay with their staff or their people you even saw that kind of play out too which i thought was quite fascinating Yeah, i I thought, you know, what they're really trying to promote is ah is ah is a fear avoidance system, you know, and and they're using control.
00:03:53
Speaker
and there's so much evidence of them trying to control every aspect of how this documentary was filmed, you know, their interaction with everyone.
00:04:04
Speaker
what they allowed Louis Thoreau to do and not do. ah You know, control is huge. Money, wealth, you know, is is another part of the system.
The Fantasy vs. Reality of Manhood
00:04:18
Speaker
And there's so much evidence of them displaying, trying to display wealth and to talk about their wealth. i And then the third thing is really attention.
00:04:30
Speaker
a so Is really, is really, do you, you know, you know, do people notice you, yeah know, or do you, or do you just sort of fade into the background?
00:04:43
Speaker
And then, so they're trying to be guys, all three of them in slightly different ways. Uh, uh, they're trying to tell what I think is primarily young men or boys.
00:04:57
Speaker
Here's how you can avoid ever having to be afraid. ever having to feel weak. We have sort for that. Yeah. Well, and since you mentioned that, and I think, I think I agree. I don't have, i don't have the data of all their followership and their subscribers to all their different platforms.
00:05:21
Speaker
But I have a hunch as well that I do think a good majority of their subscribers are probably younger men. And so with that, why, what do you think,
00:05:35
Speaker
what they do or what they're showing, what do you think or what are your thoughts on why that might be appealing to young men? I think it all plays into a fantasy that we have when we're young, when we're boys.
00:05:49
Speaker
um that That we can be, ah when we'd we'd love to as a boy be able to say anything we want to without repercussions.
00:06:00
Speaker
We love to have that sort of bravado and confidence. and And I think we we we really feel that when we're men, when we're older, we're going to be able to do that. We should be able to do that.
00:06:14
Speaker
That's kind of part of being a man. But I think that's a boyhood fantasy of what being a man really is. You know, and and it's it's the idea that, you know, I can stand up to anybody. Everybody will love me.
00:06:30
Speaker
I'll be strong, I'll be wealthy, I'll be in total control of my world. Which, as we know, you know, that's ah that's a pretty tall task, right? I don't know any man who is able to do all of those things.
00:06:49
Speaker
And I've, as I've said, I've talked to hundreds of guys about their life and about their inner life. and And, you know, but Being a man is something that, you know, we deal with challenges every single day. Yeah.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so I think these guys are really presenting a fantasy. And and I think the younger a guy is, the more likely he is to buy into that fantasy. And that's that's really concerning to me.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's concerning me too. And and I too have spoken with, I don't know, for the past 12 years of doing men's coaching and as a therapist and just sitting with, I mean, I don't even know how many, i want to say maybe at least a thousand men over the course of 12 years.
00:07:36
Speaker
Um, Very similar, that you can't control things. in fact, most of life, as we know, you you can't. you could insecut It's all false sense of security. ah And then you end up feeling that. I see it. I mean, there's enough. And you've interviewed
Examining the Pressure on Men's Worth
00:07:51
Speaker
men. And so and I know we're not the only ones. There's art you know research and research of articles out there that um really kind of speak against this. But it's it's still interesting and fascinating that to your point that there's something still enticing.
00:08:04
Speaker
ah for young men to be drawn to this. And that, you know, I think to your point is, um it's, it's again, promising, it's promising this fantasy of, I don't know, like, I won't get hurt. I won't, you know, I'll have power, I'll have wealth, I'll have prestige, I'll have people who will like me, right? There's, there's this big promise. And But it's scary.
00:08:31
Speaker
And so I guess, what do why do you think young men are more susceptible to this than maybe, let's say, i don't know, and there's someone in their 40s. Not to say that someone in their 40s can't be susceptible to this, but any thoughts on that as to why?
00:08:41
Speaker
i think the the longer we go in our lives, the more we see that life is is complicated. Mm-hmm. And, and so, you know, and I think that can be realized at various ages. i don't think there's a particular age to, to you know, pinpoint that at, but I do think that, yeah I think that, you know, we can see through that as, as, as guys who've lived a life, uh, that's much longer than, than younger guys have.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah. and And I do, but I do think actually a lot of men, even as we get older, there's a little part of us that holds onto that dream and that wish that we could be that sort of guy.
00:09:27
Speaker
um man But we know because, you know, we face setbacks in our lives. You know, we have faced, you know, difficult moments. We've had difficult, uncomfortable conversations with, ah you know, with a romantic partner.
00:09:44
Speaker
Uh, you know, we've, if you've, if, if a guy's become a parent, he's had to deal with issues with his kids. Uh, and so, I mean, there's so many things that happen in our lives that make it more complicated.
00:09:58
Speaker
i think, I think when a guy is, is younger and when a guy hasn't had to face a lot of those things, He can really feel it's true and he's and it's as if he's seeing evidence of it, you know, ah from these guys who are claiming how much money they have and make. They're driving, you know, sports cars. They have attractive women hanging all over them.
00:10:23
Speaker
You know, all of those things are are really important signals for a for a young guy again, who hasn't really gotten to the stage where he can imagine that life's gonna be complicated the whole time.
00:10:42
Speaker
yeah Which is kind of a bummer, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, well, it's that carrot, it's that false, it's a fantasy, it's not real. Well, and I think, you know, there's so many instances throughout the documentary where you see guys trying to control the situation in a way that that the lie they're selling is not going to be revealed yeah you know uh they're trying to control who is being you know who louis can talk to uh they're they're trying to control ah the women in their lives uh you know and they're talking about one-sided monogamy they're talking about
00:11:28
Speaker
You know, I'm the man who's in control of this whole situation, the situation meaning my life, my relationship and all. And I can I can do as I please. Right.
00:11:41
Speaker
So so they're trying to to to sell that and protect that throughout. I think that's you know, there's so many I don't know how much you know, you've you've noticed this, but there's so many instances of of their followers that you can see, ah you know on the screen, even they put up what, what are people saying to, Oh yeah. Their chat. Yeah. Yeah. Their chat, the influencers, you know, during this and, and it's always like, they're, they're going to call you out, you know, they're going to expose you and all of that stuff.
00:12:14
Speaker
And, and, and really all these guys are doing is, is trying to not be exposed. Yeah. that They are trying to not be exposed. Yeah. Um, and, and,
00:12:27
Speaker
Funnily enough, on on a different level as men, all of us are trying to not be exposed, you know, and and in much different ways. And we project it and, and you know, or we you don't project it as as as manosphere influencers.
00:12:47
Speaker
but But it happens a lot in our day to day lives. and And, you know, we are i think this this notion of the idea that we are always trying to not reveal weakness. We are so motivated by that, but we don't see it We just don't see it.
00:13:08
Speaker
And so, and I think that holds us back. I think that holds us back. ah Ways that we don't, you know, that go way beyond what these guys are talking about. um But there's a shred of that in every man, you know? And so I think that's important to to to think about that as as a guy.
Role of Influencers in Men's Perception of Success
00:13:29
Speaker
Yeah, and then, and you know, with that said, There's a line that stood out to me, many lines, but one of which is on the same thread. And I think I see this a lot with most if not all men that I've worked with, and even with even with myself to a degree, um is this idea that men have to earn and prove their value and their worth.
00:13:53
Speaker
And obviously within the documentary in the manosphere, it's through money, it's through, you know, they have to earn its production. If I have enough money, if I have a car, then I'll prove myself. And I remember there was a clip that one of the gentlemen, whatever, guys, or even want to call em gentlemen or guys, but you know what i'm saying? Some, this person
00:14:16
Speaker
was talking to, I think two of his followers, so to speak, and said like, yeah, no one's going to, you know, no one's going to fly you out over here and no one's going to invite you to something.
00:14:27
Speaker
you You got to earn it. You got to show it. And then we're in this together. So this idea that, you know, this man, this young follower is probably has no sense of worth and value and is trying to somehow do enough to produce it.
00:14:44
Speaker
And so like, I have seen that in so many men and again, myself included. Sure. um A part of me that was trying to prove and this idea that I got to earn it, this, if I produce enough, then, i mean, even Brene Brown talked about this in her book book on shame, um daring greatly, right? That a lot of men get stuck in that production cycle of worth where women might get stuck in that kind of beauty standard of worth. And in fact, even in this,
00:15:10
Speaker
documentary, they talk about that, that women have inherent value because of certain features and traits and that men don't. Yeah. They can have kids. Right. They have kids. They have, they have their value. And of course they, you know, they really pigeonhole women into very specific, not so helpful or healthy or loving or caring roles, but just like, yeah you got it. And you don't, you don't, you got to earn it.
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No. And I, I, and I think that ah them basically saying you can earn it, you can become me, you know. Right. If you if you dominate through control, ah if you can make so much money, um you know, and and these guys have some super nefarious schemes, all of them do.
00:15:58
Speaker
Oh, yeah. um but Very shady. Very shady. Very shady. um and and And look at all the attention I'm getting. Look at all the people who notice me. You know, and and what strikes me about that scene that you're talking about is when that guy who is clearly, like you said, searching for some kind of o identity and some kind of feeling about of feeling good about who he is, is the the guy who is is basically saying to his face, you're a nobody.
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah. You have no value. So you've got to prove your value. Which is, it's striking striking to me as as a guy who, you know, and they're and they're saying you're on my role model and he's and he's tearing them down. Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
He's tearing them down. and and I just thought, wow, that's, I think you've got as as the receiver of that information, if that doesn't make you upset, then you've got to be in a really bad place.
00:17:00
Speaker
Yeah. You know, you got to really you've got to really not feel that that you have value. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I think that that obviously all of us, men and women, um feel like we need to prove something.
00:17:22
Speaker
Like we need to we need to feel like we have value in the world. Yeah. but And I wonder what these guys, why I wonder why it's so enticing. wonder what your research what your research you might even say about Because you're right he was tearing them down, saying, you don't have this.
00:17:38
Speaker
So in a way, there's something prerogative there. And something that's like speaking to a belief a part of them that believes that they... You're right, this guy is true, and he's got the power. He's got the...
00:17:51
Speaker
He's made it. He's successful. So he must be true. He must be right. He must be accurate. I must not have it. I must earn it. But it's interesting how provocative that is. and It does something and it it pulls them into like this game or this space to like, okay, let me just, let me get in this game of proof and worth and and over.
00:18:10
Speaker
And but that's a vicious cycle. it doesn't really the end. Well, and and and and the it also is is so rooted in a kind of a victimization mindset, you know, ah you know, so it's like it's not your, you know, you're nobody, but it's not your fault.
00:18:25
Speaker
ah And I can make you into somebody if you follow my path. I can make you into somebody. But yeah. yeah but you have to follow my path.
00:18:36
Speaker
Right. And by the way, what when I guess what's the deeper truth that they're speaking to that really is, it's very skewed. It's very, obviously they're, their viewpoint, I think is entirely warped and and fear-based and shame-based. i mean, 100%. They're, in fact, they're feeding off of it. Like they're, they know that and they're going to, they're going make money off of that. But what do you think the, the grain of truth in there is? Because there's gotta be some truth in there. That's obviously why these men are following them. So what do you think that might be?
00:19:04
Speaker
A fundamental ah thing that I've heard guys say literally, and I've felt from from a lot of men I've talked to, is an inherent belief that I'm i'm not enough.
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm not enough. and And that is it's something I think we all carry, and and we all think we're the only one who thinks that. Yeah.
00:19:33
Speaker
you know Or who feels that? And, you know, it's not something so we'll never talk to other guys about that because we don't want to. That makes us really come across as weak. Sure.
00:19:43
Speaker
But a lot of guys, so a lot of guys silently carry that. And and I think that's the little shred. That's the, that's the you know, i the doors open here and and these guys just kick it open all Yeah.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. And they, they kick it open and they just, they just, they just, they feed into that false narrative and belief that you're right. You are not, you are worthless. You are no value. Um, and that you know, i have the, like, I have the keys, I have the answer, look at me. And so again, it gives them meaning. I think it gives them a sense of belonging to a community.
00:20:21
Speaker
Um, and yeah listen, There are so many ways to have value. i mean Yes. They go beyond the three that they offer, which is, you know control, you know, money and and attention and popularity.
00:20:38
Speaker
I mean, those are the things that I mean, and I've talked to so many men who who have those things. Right. um Right. who very successful financially, are who are very well thought of in the in a community,
00:20:56
Speaker
um but they they still feel empty in some way. yeah so So what these these ah masculinity influencers is what I call them, I don't have a better term for it, ah what what they offer up is so superficial.
00:21:17
Speaker
it's it's it's so much not what makes us feel fulfilled in our lives. that's um So, you know, in talking to a lot of men who have all these things already, that's that actually has not made them feel fulfilled as a human being and as a man.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, not at all. And I've seen that too with so many men um Because I think going back to what you said earlier that deep down myself included feeling at times not enough. Now I've done a lot of work on that myself personally, my own therapy, my own just relational dynamics of of sharing that and being seen, actually being vulnerable and and strong in that way. And so I know that's not true, but every now and then that lie will creep in. It's not, I think we live in a society by and large, it's so prompt that promotes and pushes work as a way to get garner value and worth, especially among men.
00:22:15
Speaker
um And I think why it's so enticing is even though it's provocative, I say that you are this thing, it's like, well, yeah, and then I buy into it. So now I'm i'm emotionally open, receptive, and then we'll do these things.
00:22:30
Speaker
And so, and it's funny though, because then not only that is they're promising this I, this fantasy that you will earn your value and worth if you make X number of money or have these cars or have these girls, like you said, if you control, you got power, you got wealth, you got all these things.
00:22:46
Speaker
Um, you know, oddly enough though, the men in their life, they're constantly trying to secure more of it. So they don't tend to, they don't feel like they actually have it. Um, but on top of that, uh, it's self-focused.
00:23:00
Speaker
right it's really and A couple of the guys said this many times. I'm living for myself, yeah not for anyone else. So it's like this. and And in a way, it's kind of an excuse of like, I don't take responsibility for my behavior or my actions.
00:23:13
Speaker
And they kind of just said, well, e it. Like, it doesn't matter. It's your, you know, that's on you. So it's a complete disregard and and and awareness of that my actions, what I say and what I do, what I don't say, what I don't do, has an indirect and direct impact on the community people around me and myself, but it's just like a complete denial. Like, doesn't matter.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah. It doesn't matter what I or do. That's part the fantasy. That's of the fantasy, you know, that I can just live for myself and I can feel great about who I am. Yeah. you know i and and And the fact that these guys are protecting that This kind of notion so clearly and throughout this documentary says to me that they actually do not feel fulfilled as a man.
00:24:08
Speaker
No. no They actually don't. And and and I don't know, my my orientation is always to just, i'm not I'm trying not to judge and I'm just trying to to just see underneath what what's really going on here. but what What are the...
00:24:24
Speaker
sort of underlying motivations that drive people. And, yeah and, and so, you know, I don't know. So I, I think the, the, that's why I, you know, I'm suggesting the change in the spelling here of manosphere S P H E R E to sphere F E A R. Yeah. It's really, that's what, if this is the manosphere,
00:24:49
Speaker
Fear is is really what is or the avoidant avoidance of fear is what's being sold. That's it. That's it. It has nothing to do with being a man, being a better man, being a successful man.
00:25:05
Speaker
It has to do with a man being a man who will never have to encounter fear. Like I can tell himself I'm living for myself, you know, and you know, I don't, it doesn't really matter what happens to the people around me. And we saw a lot evidence of that and in, in documentary. No, for sure. Deluding himself.
00:25:36
Speaker
Sorry, I'll cut this part out. I forgot my door was slightly open. Someone came to the office. Um,
00:25:42
Speaker
No, they are deluding themselves. and And this idea that living for yourself is freedom, which is the promise, but it's really just a back to fear of vulnerability because to take account, to realize that I have a direct impact on others,
00:25:59
Speaker
reminds me, you know, I've been going through this book again. don't you've read it King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. Oh, yeah. um Yes. Great book. And it reminds me of like, you know, the...
00:26:11
Speaker
ah the tyrant, right? The king, not not the true king, right? But the tyrant, which is the one that like yeah misuses power for their gain. Yes. And which there is power there because those guys do have power. They have power. They do.
00:26:28
Speaker
They have power. But they're wielding it though and using the community against self to better them. And that's the that's the tyrant, right? that's the That's not the true king because really the king...
00:26:40
Speaker
If I recall here, the actual king, um let's see, is about the other, about lifting up the whole community. um Yeah, the tyrant exploits and abuses others, right? The shadow king is tyrant is the father who makes war on his sons and his daughters.
00:27:02
Speaker
It's this whole um this whole notion that we misuse our power versus the real king. It says, this is page 63, but it says, the real king cares for the whole realm and is the steward of nature as well as of human society.
00:27:18
Speaker
So the true king actually... knows the power they wield, but it's lifting up others as a whole community. and And that is all boy. Uh, I, you know, I, I, I've interviewed a lot of ex military guys, um, who are trying to make their way in the corporate world, which is full of difficulty for them.
00:27:42
Speaker
Yeah. And, and, and what I've come to understand about that is They've been in a world in the military where it's all about, ah it's one for all.
00:27:56
Speaker
yeah but we're wherever' ever We all have to survive this. right We're in it for everybody. right and that And then they they come into the into the corporate world where it's just the opposite.
00:28:11
Speaker
and And they've got to figure out, wait a minute, this isn't the way it was. How can survive in a, no, it's actually, ah you know, it's actually the opposite.
00:28:25
Speaker
It's all for one. It's not one. yeah And and yeah one of the guys I, you know, I spoke with said, he said, I can't imagine anybody really feeling there being a man if they haven't served someone else.
00:28:45
Speaker
and And I mean, that that's exactly what you're talking about, I think, you know, that that that quote from from this book. yeah and And that's exactly the opposite of what the manus fear, however we want to spell it, is really promoting.
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, because the fear is all fear-based, right? So fear of being known, fear of... And again, you know being a therapist and studying on research and psychology, you know it's most likely their own... It's for sure their own projection of their own low self-value. And so I project it onto everybody else. And i you know I know such a hot turn, top you know narcissism, right? Sure, we all have narcissistic traits, and I think think je these...
00:29:33
Speaker
humans definitely had higher levels of that, I would say, which is really, we mean, narcissism is really a defense mechanism. It's a pretty ingrained defense mechanism that hurts them, hurts self and others, but it's really all fear. Narcissism is all fear. It's fear of being seen, fear of being known that, that I really am worthless and I really am less than that. I really am broken or some type of thing. And so I got to project this and use and misuse and use power and abuse and all these things to kind of secure myself. But it's really deep, deep up the core soul level.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah. a big level of disintegration inside. Well, and I, and I mean, I'm not a psychologist or a coach or any of those things, but, but I, I have heard guys talk about this and and I've done this in my life so much ah where, and and maybe you have too.
00:30:17
Speaker
Have you been through the thing where you kind of keep all your friend groups separate? You know, like, I don't, i don't know if I really want all these people to actually meet each other because when I'm with my, my, my ah buddies from high school,
00:30:33
Speaker
I act this way when I'm with my work friends, I act this way. yeah When I'm, you know, with my partner or with, ah you know, a romantic interest, I act this way. So, so we end up creating all these like buckets of, of, of people. And we don't, if they all come together, they might, they might actually see who I really am.
00:31:00
Speaker
and and And so that's just one of the ways that we, you know, from a, you know, a kind of a foundation of of of avoiding the fear of revealing weakness the fear of reveal weakness. If that's kind of where we're coming from, we're always on defense.
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah. Always in protect mode. Yeah. And once again, see these guys in protect mode. I see them playing defense. No, we can't let that happen because then somebody is going to find something out about me.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and I agree. and And I know obviously with this film, it's it's a pretty you know far extreme, sure smaller population. but i think But I think it's in a way speaking to some of the truth that I think a lot of the typical man gets stuck in. And I think more realistically, I don't i don't really see these types of men in my office ever, if I'm honest, or come across them. You see them, they're there, they exist. But I think I come across more the the typical man who I think is – trying to secure their own identity, usually in their work, usually in money, usually trying to prove, you know, through titles or achievement and trying to have value. or I think of the fathers I've worked with, you know, if I could just provide, then I have value. Then I have worth as a father, as a man.
00:32:14
Speaker
I think more realistically, see that type, you know, again, less extreme, but still as insidious because deep down there's still this sense of shame that I'm still less than not worth I have to secure myself, which I think still leads to isolation and pain and hurt and addiction. i mean, a whole bunch of things to try to deal with this deep core belief. And to your point earlier is that a lot of men aren't, you know, they think they're the only one.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. When in reality, i would I would venture to say probably every single man has at least wrestled with their self-worth.
00:32:48
Speaker
At least at one point, whether they're consciously aware of it unconsciously, because we all deal with that as humans. It's part of our, i think, psychology is identifying who we are. yeah Belonging, wanting to be known, and the fear of, what if I'm found
The Power of Vulnerability and Authentic Manhood
00:33:01
Speaker
out?
00:33:01
Speaker
What if people really see me? mean, that's why all these different words, imposter syndrome, whatever, all these new terms, really, it's all about, I'm really deeply afraid of truly being known. And I think working with so many people, i would say men and men and women across the board,
00:33:19
Speaker
that if you get to the core of it all, if you get deep down to the soul level, and I would be in this category too, there's a deep fear that we're going to get, that essentially, and we might use different words, but the deep fear is that I will be rejected and I won't belong and I will have no worth or no value.
00:33:36
Speaker
And people will know that and eventually I'll be this, don't have to be some lonely, you know, man old man in a cabin in the woods. Um, You know, and finally accept my fate. And so we all fear that, which is so fascinating.
00:33:48
Speaker
All of us fear that. And we find ways to secure it or mask it. Mask. yeah Yeah, we mask it so many ways. than say, you know what, sometimes I feel this. And can I actually go to another man or or woman or friend and just say, hey, I'm struggling right now with this this feeling of mine. Yeah.
00:34:07
Speaker
Can I just be witnessed and then seen for who I am? I mean, that's also Brene Brown's work. i mean, and she's not the only one who's written on shame, but she's one the bigger ones now. It's because often she says that, you know, in order to fight shame, we we reveal it.
00:34:19
Speaker
we We share it with somebody. Absolutely. we shine We shine light on it, which then begins to lose its power because it loses it. Shame in this fear of being less than or not having enough for value it it It holds power when it stays in the darkness, when we don't reveal it to others. So it hides. And as it hides, it grows in power. But once we reveal it, shine a light and people witness that.
00:34:39
Speaker
Now, at least, I'm not say all people, because some people like these men will then just continue building on that shadow and that fear. But real people who really care for you will say, that's not true.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah. like I think of my kids. And I always say this with parents when I work with when i work with parents, um especially if they're struggling with their own sense of value and worth. And I always ask them this question.
00:35:02
Speaker
So let's say your son or daughter came to you and they're really struggling. And you're a little five-year-old kid. I always try to use a small kid because it's even easier to kind of have more empathy and compassion for a five-year-old.
00:35:15
Speaker
So imagine a five-year-old kid or you know son or daughter comes to you and they say, you know, dad, I just feel like I'm so i'm so bad and worthless. You don't love me and everyone hates me.
00:35:30
Speaker
And I'm like, you would tell your kid that, yeah, you i kind of play into them Like you would tell them they're worthless, right? you would tell them that it's not enough. And and they're like, no. And immediately with like, ah it's not even a thought. It's like yeah their immediate body reacts and kind of like, fuck no, I would never say that. Of course, of course. Because they know deep down the truth. I'm like, well, what do you tell them?
00:35:49
Speaker
Like, I'd say, of course you're, you know, they would say, of course you have worth. There's nothing you got to earn. There's nothing you have prove. I love you just the way you are. You have value. You are a person. You have inherent worth and value just for being you.
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah. need to prove me anything. Well, and what and what we don't understand, mean, what we don't think about ah when when we're we're when we're in this protect mode and we don't want to reveal weakness is why do humans, men and women, always naturally root for the underdog?
00:36:25
Speaker
You know? Yeah. Yeah. i was just having a conversation the other day with a guy and we were talking about a particular basketball player and, you know, here we are in March Madness and all this stuff.
00:36:36
Speaker
And, and, and I said to him, you know, I just, I just want that guy to win because he's had such a tough road. Yeah. And, and, and so, you know, and the other guy said, yeah, absolutely.
00:36:51
Speaker
Absolutely. So your point about when we reveal weakness, Hmm. that turning into a strength is, is so, it's so true.
00:37:05
Speaker
But we don't, we don't look for evidence of that or we don't notice that because we're so focused on just not giving who we really are away anybody because for the very reason you said, i what if it, they reject me?
00:37:26
Speaker
What if I, have friends. Yeah. Well, in a lot of ways, a lot of people I've worked with too have had very real rejection or pain around their value as well. So I know, I mean, and to say that out, to say this out loud too, another reason why people think people get stuck is because of they've had very either explicit or implicit messaging saying that you will get rejected, you are worthless. And so to to risk that is huge. Like, why would I risk that? That's, it's like, it's easier if I just accept this.
00:37:53
Speaker
It's easier if I just believe this to be true and just try to prove it versus risking believing that I actually have inherent value and worth for who I am. Yeah. That's far more risky.
00:38:05
Speaker
um I think at least initially until they begin begin to get that and get in good, healthy relationships where that is reaffirmed in a really healthy way. They just, I think a buddy of mine,
00:38:17
Speaker
we we we have a send audio messages back and forth frequently. And what we've what I've noticed is when he sent me some messages and has affirmed me for me,
00:38:31
Speaker
not for what I've done or what I do or will do, but just my, my personhood, just Travis being Travis, man, it hits me in such a different level. It's just like, it hits right to the core of my soul of feeling like pure acceptance, seen, loved, cared for. Like there's some, and there's something actually invigorating about that too of like,
00:38:54
Speaker
it's not about you know getting a on a test or getting ah or getting the next promotion i mean those are fine and you can i think celebrating a win is great there's nothing wrong with celebrating hard work and overcoming it up like those are good things yeah but that's not where you're worth the security and that's just something you do and it's it maybe shows strength and confidence and it shows like you know resilience but value It's not tied to value. We need to separate value who our inherent value is tied to these accomplishments. These are, they can complement each other, but they are far different. And when he speaks to me as my value as a human, not for my achievement, it hits on a whole different level.
00:39:34
Speaker
And I think if we begin to talk to each other in that way, affirming our our inherent value and worth, I think a solution might be to to speak to our friends, especially guy friends, more about who they are, what you see in them as their character, not so much in their work.
00:39:49
Speaker
I can see that being quite a, boy, I think you've just, you've just said something really important there, uh, really important. And, and I, ah one of the things I've done with people at times, um, is try to introduce yourself
00:40:12
Speaker
by just telling someone who you are.
00:40:15
Speaker
Don't use any performance measures. You know, I work here, you know, I have this job, you know, usually we introduce ourselves, you know, yeah know with our, you know, what we do for a living first, title, you know, I'm the CEO, I'm the whatever, you know, blah, blah. blah You know, when we introduce ourselves in that way first almost all the time. And what i've what I've learned in the world of listening is to really listen to how somebody introduces themselves.
00:40:47
Speaker
You know, do they, do they lead with their family? Do they lead with, you know, how successful they are? Do they lead with, here's the struggle I've been through, you know?
00:41:01
Speaker
And so, so what I try to, I don't know what I ask people to do sometimes sometimes is just introduce me, introduce yourself to me as if I know nothing about you. Right.
00:41:13
Speaker
And just tell me who you are. Hmm. and and And it's a kind of a, it's a, people pause.
00:41:23
Speaker
zo They don't know what to say. Well, because you said, we're used to doing our a title. Yeah. Like the work, their job, not who they are. Right. No, it's a it's a much harder question.
00:41:37
Speaker
And it's a much more revealing thing. Well, especially if the whole life they've been told that their their value is tied to their work or performance or achievement or titles. Well, then, of course, they're going to go that way. if that's if that's the If that's the blueprint, well, then why this going to cause pause? Because they can't. It's almost to be like ah almost a foreign question.
00:41:57
Speaker
Like, what do you mean? Like, I've seen people do that. Like, what do you mean? i did a newspaper Every bit of society is oriented that way. If you you know you read an obituary. you know totally here's the age here's what they're most known for performance wise okay academy award winner you know uh you know started this company whatever you know so that that the the achieve that it's all everything leads with some kind of performance or some kind of achievement yeah and and you know when we live in that kind of a stew
00:42:34
Speaker
it's It's no wonder that that you know we worth. Sure. And it's a lie.
00:42:42
Speaker
sure when it's it's a lie Yeah. Because that leads to, as you know, and ah you've met many men. I've talked to many men and i've I've known other men talking with many men. So I mean, we have enough sample size here.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think we've got ah you got to say, hey, like it's good. Like, yes, work hard. Yes. Achieve, especially if it aligns with your sets of values. But going back to like the king and something that yeah the good king versus the manosphere is that it's about not just self. It's about the betterment of the people around you.
00:43:17
Speaker
It's about lifting others up in the whole community, which includes you. But it's not about just the self. It's about being really to account. And I think in that too, we find our worth, our value in relationships. Right.
00:43:30
Speaker
And we see that worth in other people in relationships, but it's relational. And I think you said this thing earlier is that really a man, I think becomes a true man when they learn how to serve well. Yeah.
00:43:40
Speaker
And not self, but serve others, the community, their neighbor, their people, um, lifting others up, using their power for good, you know, using their power for generativity, um,
00:43:54
Speaker
And I think, i think age sometimes lends to that. Like, yeah. And, and think of, think of ah another thing people say, which, you know, contributes to the conversation we're having right now, which is when somebody is super wealthy, are there like the head of the company or whatever? And, but, and they do something good.
00:44:11
Speaker
People almost always say, you know, he didn't have to do that. He did something he didn't really have to do. Right. Which is interesting. It is super interesting. you know, that's part of our our language, you know? yeah And, but everybody's like, yeah, well, like he, gosh, he actually helped someone.
00:44:30
Speaker
He didn't have to. Right. Rather than the narrative, like, no, this is what being a really healthy man is, is as using whatever, whatever resource they have and whether it's monetary, it could be time. It could, yeah. It's really about others. Right.
00:44:44
Speaker
And kindness and lifting others up. And I think that's obviously the one thing that gets missed on this because, i you know, this, in a way, it's kind of a caricature. It leads to it leads to more loneliness, more isolation, more disconnection.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah. um And I think that's the problem with it. And men get stuck and we got to change the narrative. We got do, and and here's the thing, everyone listening and watching, like there are a lot of good men and women doing really good things to help boys and men.
00:45:12
Speaker
um I know this is provocative, this documentary, and it's it's ah it's ah it's a space in in in in the world. But this i this is not the majority. it It's still something we need to pay attention to because I think it in more and theyre more normal ways, we see it kind of trickling down to boys and men in other ways, insidious ways that isn't so like extreme, but it's still we still got to address it.
00:45:34
Speaker
And I think, Jim, your work is vitally important with your research, everything you're doing. And so with that said, where if people want to continue following you and and stay up to date with your work, Jim, where can they find you? Where should they go?
00:45:47
Speaker
ah They can find me at my website, which is menmovingforward.com. ah They can find me on Substack, Stuff Guys Don't Talk About.
00:46:01
Speaker
i'm I'm writing a piece every Tuesday. And that is based on on all of the interviews that I've done with men and and the things that we don't talk about.
00:46:13
Speaker
and And that's all comes back to fear. You know, it all comes back to this not revealing weakness that that we that we. that that that we basically do in all aspects of our lives. yeah um And they, the other places on Instagram, by the way, and that's, that's at men moving FWD.
00:46:38
Speaker
Yeah. So those are the three places to find me. I also run a, ongoing study with men called undercurrent, which you can get to through going to my website. Yeah.
00:46:49
Speaker
And all those listening and watching will be clickable in the description. And and part of what spurred this on is Jim wrote an article, turns out Manosphere might be misspelled. It should probably probably be called Manosphere, F-E-A-R. f e a r And so that will be linked in the description directly to that specific article, but his his main whole subsec as well to to follow Jim's work. But Jim, thank you for today for being on. And and I think this is such, we're going have ongoing conversations around this. I talk with us a lot because think it's so important that we help boys and men kind of break out of this manosphere and really be brought into really holistically healthy, supportive um community.
00:47:30
Speaker
So I thank you for your time today, Jed. Thank you. And I would just ask ah guys who have teenage boys to watch this with them and to and to and to guide them while they're watching. I think that can help a lot.
00:47:47
Speaker
Totally. I mean, great conversation. I agree. up That's actually a great idea. Great conversation piece too of like, Hey, what do you think about this? Let's talk about it. And yeah it creates dialogue. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too.
00:47:58
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, Jim, thank you for your work and blessings on your continued work with boys and men. No, I thank you for all the stuff you do and, and for, for having me on here. i This has been a really fun conversation.
00:48:11
Speaker
I'll have you on again. Don't worry.