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S5.E3 - The Anxious Generation - Ch. 5-8
59 Plays2 months ago
Adam (“Stehlin”) leads our discussion of Part 3: “The Great Rewiring: The Rise of the Phone-Based Childhood” from The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt.
- Which of the 4 social harms the author describes can you relate to most as it relates to your relationship with your phone and social media? (0:42 - 18:42)
- What strikes you the most about the impacts of social media use on boys and girls, and how can you relate specifically to how it impacts boys and men? (18:43 - 43:38)
- What are some specific ways you’ve combated against letting your phone and other technologies affect your spiritual life? (43:39 - 56:41)
- The guys compare their average weekly screen time reports. See who uses their phone the most, and the least! (56:42 - 59:43)
Next week we’ll discuss Part 4 (chapters 9 - Conclusion): “Collection Action for Healthier Childhood” (pages 219 - 295).
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See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
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Transcript
Introduction to Books Brothers Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to the Books Brothers Podcast, the podcast where longtime friends spread across the country reconnect through the pages of a good book.
Impact of Smartphones on Childhood Mental Health
00:00:12
Speaker
Each episode, we dive into what we are reading, sharing
00:00:29
Speaker
We are currently reading through the anxious generation how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness by Jonathan Haidt. This week we'll be looking at part three, the great rewiring, the rise of the phone-based childhood. This is chapters five through eight. In the first two parts of the book, we learned about the increasing levels of mental leads us to part three, where we start to get into the problems that can rise as a result of a phone-based childhood and how it is contributing to these mental health issues.
Negative Effects of Smartphone Dependency
00:00:57
Speaker
He notes how originally a smartphone was a Swiss Army knife that we pulled out when we needed a tool. Compare this to now where companies are developing platforms and competing to see who can hold eyeballs the longest. In this section, Hite first talks about the four foundational harms of a phone-based childhood and their social deprivation sleep deprivation, attention, fragmentation, and addiction. So social deprivation could just bring less time and face-to-face interaction and more time on their phones. Height includes some data that shows that in the 15 to 24 age group, daily time with friends has decreased from around 150 minutes a day in 2003 to just over 60 minutes a day in 2019.
00:01:37
Speaker
Sleep deprivation. The constant presence of their phones is also leading to less quantity and quality of sleep, which is crucial for everyone's health, but especially in our developing years. Attention fragmentation. This is a harm that we likely all can relate to as it refers to how phones constantly steal our attention from the moment that we are currently in. The average number of phone alerts on young people's phones today is about 192, making being fully present increasingly challenging. And lastly, addiction. Look specifically at social media.
00:02:06
Speaker
You make a post, it gets some likes, or maybe we share it a few times. This feels good. So maybe we keep looking at our phone over the course of the next few hours or the day to see the kind of response that we we're getting. As the influence of this post declines, you might start to feel down. So we decided we need to post again with even more attention grabbing material because we want to feel good again. This is the loop that we fall into.
00:02:25
Speaker
So as adults, we too are not immune to these foundational harms that height describes in this chapter. So with that being said, which of these harms do you feel like you guys can relate to most ah when it comes to your relationship with your phone or social media?
00:02:37
Speaker
I would say for sure attention fragmentation. I think that I already had an issue focusing well before smartphones were invented and inserted into everybody's lives. I've gone to great lengths to make sure at this point that I do not get notifications when they're not needed and it helps so much compared to having all these apps on my phone that were a constant distraction.
00:03:04
Speaker
So in scarcity brand, you mentioned the black and gray or black and white overlay of your phone. This is what my phone looks like. So you're still rocking it, right? Can you give us an update on that?
Strategies to Reduce Phone Addiction
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah. So like, these are all my apps. It's just black and white letters. You, you have no icons. You have nothing that your brain would associate with like a dopamine hit. Right.
00:03:28
Speaker
Um, but even further than that, I've just taken off anything like Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, like any of the, any of the things that I find myself wasting a lot of time on, it just doesn't exist on this phone. So, so much better. I recommend it to anybody. The app is called, it's on Android, but I'm sure iPhone has a version, but it's called minimalist phone. How long have you been doing it for?
00:03:53
Speaker
I don't know, what was that, six months ago? Scarcity Brain? Oh, you did it like during Scarcity Brain. Yeah, and you buy it, so it's like 30 bucks for ah like an annual thing, but I think it's worth it. It saves me time. I mean, I still find ways to waste time on my phone, for sure, just like everybody else, but it's way less than it used to be.
00:04:14
Speaker
yeah I would say, yeah, I'd agree. I think we would all say attention, fragmentation, be that's ah the most one. But I actually just finally deleted my Instagram. i made it What Instagram does is you go to delete your account and they say, oh, you have 30 days until it actually deletes. So then you can 15 days in and you're like, oh man, I'm but having like FOMO for one day. So then you go in and you see it. You're like, dang it. Now I got to start over 30 more days.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I did that. i'll be I'll be honest. I did that like twice. And then I finally let it go the 30 days. That's awesome. man Not have it anymore. but Yeah. Thanks. But that shows that it says some addictive potential there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that falls into that addiction category. And I mean, I don't know. I mean, obviously you mentioned that you re downloaded it two times, but it's like, Hey, there's a lot of people that are not doing that. Right.
00:05:17
Speaker
Oh, it's on Apple. Looks like there is an app for the iPhone minimalist launcher. Dude, it's got 4.7. That's a good rating. I might try it out. It's pretty cool. It's kind of like a dumb phone. You know, the dumb phones that they kind of pitched.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah. It's like software that kind of makes your phone turn into a dumb phone in in the way that it looks and it operates. But you still have access to like the things that you actually need to use like Google maps and stuff. Because those dumb phones don't have like any useful apps really. Yeah.
00:05:51
Speaker
Yeah. I definitely can relate to what you're saying, Thomas, about the intention and fragmentation. And similar to Adam, you know I've gotten rid of all of my social medias and stuff. I've been in this new role for work for nine months now, I think.
Balancing Life with Phone Connectivity
00:06:05
Speaker
And I have a work phone. And what's been challenging about that has been I really have to be alert, paying attention because it's like I might get email or text or call from a physician or from a physician's practice that I got to respond to quickly. And I found that I've struggled more with it since I've been in this role to have my attention divided because you know I might be going back and forth with a physician on a plan on something and you know it's been really challenging to be as much in the moment.
00:06:35
Speaker
and It's something that you know my prior work role when I was home, I was home and workday was done and that's not really what I'm doing right now. And it is kind of a reality that I have to face with what I'm doing now for work. And I'm really just trying to get more used to that and comfortable with that, but it definitely doesn't feel very natural compared to the past. And so I kind of have to, but it definitely has made it more challenging to be in the moment.
00:07:01
Speaker
What is it like with family life and stuff? You're you're feeling pulled away or you're feeling distracted when you're trying to like relax or go do something that's not work related. Yeah. I mean, and I've alluded to with you guys before that I could always essentially be called in for work. And so there's been the times where maybe like I'm messaging back and forth with physicians like MA or something like that in the evening to try to figure out like a plan for an upcoming surgery or try to get something scheduled. And it definitely has made it more challenging to be with family in those times, I would say. I think I've fallen into three out of the four harms, social deprivation. Yeah, I can see that one.
00:07:47
Speaker
Whenever I'm mostly with the in-laws, to be honest, or my family. I don't know. I'll just be sitting in the living room or something and most people are on their phones. So no one's really talking to each other. And if I am conscious of being on my phone and then I put it away for a little bit, I just get bored because no one else is talking.
00:08:11
Speaker
ah So I'd pull out my phone again. Should say something, just be like, Hey man, crazy. hang up and hang out A lot of times I'll just take pictures of them and then send a text message to all of That's funny.
00:08:29
Speaker
Dude, Matt, I know what you're talking about there. mike My parents just got phones within like the past couple years. My dad just got one this year and I'll go over or they'll be in town and they'll both be like sitting on the couch here on their phone. And I'm like, yo, know I haven't seen you in months. Get off your phone. And they're like not doing anything.
00:08:56
Speaker
You know, and it's like, come on, it goes. I mean, it really does go to show you, even though this book is focused on one generation, this is like a, this is a human issue at its heart, right? Like these, um these apps, these algorithms, they're not made for a certain age group. they Like everybody is susceptible to the things that we're talking about.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, with what you're saying, Rob, I know Ruth and I have been guilty to that before in the past of both being on our phones while we're sitting still on the couch. And I think we've gotten better about it in the past, but you know, what what is that? What, you know, is it, is it truly boredom? I think maybe there's something to be said about like some kind of like FOMO of like fear of missing out of something that's going on or not seeing something.
Impact of Technology on Personal and Family Life
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah. Which is silly though too, right? Because yeah I mean, Marianne yeah harps on me about this all the time, but it's like,
00:09:46
Speaker
what What could be more intriguing than my life right in front of me, you know, like my wife, my family, my kids, my parents, right? Like what could actually be more important than being truly present to them? Yeah. Quite frankly, nothing. Yeah. But Matt, I think you were going to hit maybe on a couple more. So sorry.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, all good. Um, sleep de deprivation. I don't think that one really affects me. I always put my phone down and I read before bed. Sometimes I do read on my phone if my Kindle is dead, but I don't really count that as the same. But I think attention fragmentation is probably the biggest one for me. I just get distracted and I'm always thinking about having the phone on me, checking it for a notification or looking up things or reading on it. That's probably the biggest one. And I noticed it with my family too. Sometimes we'll be eating lunch together and I am looking at my phone and the kids are just talking. Emily's talking with them. And then they say something at me and I, I can hear that they're talking, but I don't register that they're talking to me until Emmy's like, Matt, put your phone down. like Oh yeah. Thanks. oh Yeah.
00:11:06
Speaker
I think addiction, just in general, addicted to my phone. Not really any one app in particular right now. I was for sure. I played this stupid Star Wars game, like five years straight. Oh, and mean the one one that they discontinued. pattern Did they? The tower ah tower defense one.
00:11:27
Speaker
no It's called gods have heroes The tower defense one was awesome and they got rid of it. I was bummed. I Just i just started playing Call of Duty again. I'm not gonna lie They have a mobile version yeah dangerous Don't even say that I'll bring back clash of clans real quick You were you were definitely addicted to that for a minute. Yeah, for sure. I got this controller that will plug straight into your phone so you can play Call of Duty really easily on your phone with an actual controller. Wow. This just sounds like an advertisement now. Do you do it? Do you do that, man? I haven't played it for a while, but I played it every day for like at least a month or two when I got it.
00:12:24
Speaker
funny I saw this funny real the ah yesterday. it was It was a dad with two kids standing in the doorway and the dad was playing video games and it was saying something like, you need to recognize your priorities in life. And it was playing this like, you saw this one, it was playing like this sad music. And then the dad steps up and he's like, yeah, these are my priorities. And then he NCA, uh, like football, like I need to build my franchise. That's my priority or something like that. But it's so sad because unfortunately, you know, people do prioritize that way, the other way around. But I hear you on the attention fragmentation piece. I think it's just anytime I see it light up, I hear it. It's like I can't not go and look at it no matter what I'm doing. And Stalen, I can relate to having like the two phones. It's like,
00:13:31
Speaker
Anytime you're not doing something, you're like, oh shoot, I should go check to see if I missed something or whatever. So it's just a constant being pulled to it. Like it's magnetic. You're always coming back to it.
00:13:44
Speaker
But the addiction piece is real, though. I have the apps on my phone and I'll literally check it, just like look, you know, especially like on episode release day or something. And then I'll put my phone down to work. And then five minutes later, I'm back doing the same thing. And it's like, whoa, whoa, like, I just checked it five minutes. Like, I don't need to check it again. But what's funny, too, is I know you guys aren't like in as traditional of an office setting as I am right now, but but I mean, I'm on my phone a decent amount or I, you know, look at it, but then you get up to use the restroom and you see other people that are on their phone and you're like, gosh, every time I walk by that guy's always on his phone, when in all reality, people could probably say the same about like yourself. And so it's like this double standard of you think that people are worse.
00:14:42
Speaker
then you, but in all reality, you might be worse than them or everybody's in the same boat. doing It's just an ah optics thing where it's like the one time you catch somebody looking at something on Amazon, it's like, gosh, that guy's such a bum, but it literally might be the only time he looks at Amazon and it just happens to be the time you walk by. Probably not, though. Maybe maybe not.
00:15:10
Speaker
Do you remember how this book defined digital addiction or addiction in this sense? How extreme is he talking? Because I feel like to an extent we could all say, oh yeah, I'm addicted to some technology because I'm always looking at it. But what is it really? How serious should we take that word in this sense? To the point where it disrupts. I would not be inclined to not call it an addiction.
00:15:36
Speaker
Like when you look, you get your screen time report and it says you spend like four hours on your phone a day. That's probably an addiction. Well, my point is we've got four things here, sleep deprivation and social deprivation. To me, if those two are happening, especially at the same time,
00:15:54
Speaker
I feel like that already kind of falls into the whole addiction category because it's affecting really important parts of your life. So as as far as how the DSM, so it's like the ah textbook on psychological conditions, the way it defines addiction is like essentially through symptoms. So you're using something more than you want or you intend to.
00:16:16
Speaker
The thing that you're using is causing ah you to neglect responsibilities, relationships. ah You're using it in risky settings. And then you're physically depending on on that thing. Would texting while driving be a risky setting?
00:16:32
Speaker
I feel like a lot of people do that. Maybe that is someone who can't not put their phone down while they're driving. But I think like the other three are very clearly things that we see people doing with their phones. It's causing them to avoid their neglecting situations, their friends. it's who would Who would say, like oh, I'm not on my phone too much? I'd say most people are going to say, oh, I'm on my phone way more than I'd like. And then you we all kind of alluded to some extent just that we really feel the pull to check our phone. To me, I think the way that we're talking about phone addiction, like social media addiction, I don't think it's like over what's the term I'm looking for. I don't think that we're it's like exaggerating it. Yeah. but I mean, I guess it's just sad that it's such a common thing. Oh, yeah,
Social Media's Disproportionate Impact on Youth
00:17:22
Speaker
for sure. Have you ever ever heard of like a bar or somewhere that basically makes it impossible to use your cell phone or like they take your phone when you walk in?
00:17:32
Speaker
No, I've heard of places like that, and it would be super cool to go to one, I think, to where either the whole room is like a big cage with no service, no internet. They've they've pretty much like engineered it that way, or like you can't get in without presenting a phone for them to keep while you're in there. So that's when you go there, but you take your Apple Pay, but then you can't pay because Cash only don't have your phone or people are too afraid to go there because there's no reviews or pictures of it online. Yeah, like that's true. considering I mean, but considering all these negative things that we talk about with phones, like don't you think that would be a really popular place or just like a lunk alarm if someone pulls out their phone?
00:18:28
Speaker
Planet fitness style. Yeah, exactly. that well yeah What would the name of that alarm be? I don't know. You're the you're the funny one, Thomas. take Fail. The next portion of these chapters, the author highlights the unique set of difficulties that boys and girls are facing when it comes to a phone based childhood.
00:18:50
Speaker
The evidence appears to show that social media is more harmful for girls than for boys. Since 2013, psychiatric wards in the US and other Western countries started to fill disproportionately with girls. For girls, increased social media usage appears to have a correlation with diagnosis of clinically significant depression. As girls using social media in the UK, five plus hours a day, head as high as a 40% diagnosis rate.
00:19:14
Speaker
Girls are also two to three times more likely to fall in the category of social media super users, meaning that they are spending more than 40 hours a week on social media. Heights belief is that social media companies exploits girls greater need for communion and their other social concerns by four different reasons. Girls are more affected by visual social comparison and perfectionism. Girls aggression is more relational. Girls more easily share emotions and disorders. And girls and are more subject to predation and harassment.
00:19:42
Speaker
The boys are not going to be easy though and the decline has been going on much longer. In the 1970s, the feeling of purposelessness has increased and optimism for future success has decreased. Men have been pulling inward in this period, living with their parents longer, going to college at lower rates and overall taking less real world risk. For boys, the rationale for this appears to be the virtual world giving one a feeling of success and the real world appearing scarier and giving more chance of failure.
00:20:07
Speaker
For boys, the virtual world has consisted of video games, television, online communities, gambling, dating apps, and pornography. Video games give boys a chance to escape and to be the hero in the story without ever having to leave the room. Pornography leads to an array of harm, health issues, and addiction under the false facade that a boy can quote-unquote get a girl without ever having to have a face-to-face interaction.
00:20:29
Speaker
This in turn results in the harm for girls in this generation as well. Through this rewiring, boys are becoming even more isolated, hopeless, and fearful. So reading about each gender, specifically how each gender has suffered due to social media and other internet platforms was particularly disturbing and saddening in this section for me. I'm curious though, what struck you all in this portion of the book and how do you relate to the rewiring that has occurred specifically to boys and to men?
00:20:52
Speaker
I feel like talking about the red pill and MGTOW movements. And I don't know if you guys remember talking about that before, I think in a previous book, but it's kind of like a, an online community of guys sort of looking up to the likes of Andrew Tate. It's like Andrew Tate. Yeah. We were talking about these types of super macho personas and the fact that they actually like give guys a sense of direction when, you know, maybe society or religion or whatever has kind of like declined in the last few decades, doesn't. And I think as times have changed and gender roles have kind of like shifted and expectations of men have shifted, men are looking and young men especially are looking for somebody to give them direction right now.
00:21:42
Speaker
And the traditional sense of what it means to be a man is is more nebulous now than I think it ever has been, at least in the history of the US, right? So I guess I see a lot of these online communities as just as harmful as they can be helpful for a lot of young men. like They can easily easily fall into these ideologies that steer them away from a good traditional relationship with a woman or a good sense of what they can do in the world to be a productive and successful member of society. And yeah, I guess I'm just glad that by the time I was sort of out of it, we talked about sensitive phases in the last episode.
00:22:22
Speaker
And before I was out of the sensitive phase of like who to look up to and where to get my direction in life, these things hadn't presented so heavily online. right There weren't guys on social media touting the things that they are today to these guys. When I was 13 or 14, I was still out playing tag or football or whatever with my friends instead.
00:22:44
Speaker
so You know, I see a lot of young men probably struggling with being lonely, not knowing who look to to look to for direction. And that causes big issues later down the line when these guys are adults and they have really not a whole lot of reasons to try to live up to anything productive or good. You know, they're they're just kind of like alone and angry and looking for an outlet for that.
00:23:06
Speaker
So I guess as a man, that's kind of like the risk I see manifesting because of the current online trends, I guess, for for young men. So Thomas, in the first part of that, when you were talking about the role models that younger guys are having, I think what I'm hearing you say is that when we were growing up, you didn't really have these like online role models in the same way that the next generation did.
00:23:32
Speaker
And so like, whereas for us, it was just who was our social sphere, but for this next wave, it's like they're looking at maybe people who are like influencers, people who are maybe they're like looking at them because they're super wealthy or they are good at getting women essentially. And but I think what I'm hearing you say is that younger people are aspiring to be more like that because that's how they have more access to that. Is that kind of what you're saying?
00:23:53
Speaker
Well, as a young man, what you want to do is prove yourself yeah in in what way that makes sense to you. If that's going to the gym every day and taking the same stack of steroids or any type of routine that you see online, that's what you're going to think you have to do to get the respect you crave as like a ah a young man growing up, right? You're searching for that rite of passage, if you will, to feel like you've become a man. So basically, when I was younger, I didn't have the same group of influencers to look at. And when you think about what it what makes an influencer successful, it's not providing a good guide for anybody looking at them. It's providing the most
00:24:39
Speaker
extreme and eye-catching and the algorithm's not set up to give people good wholesome advice that's going to shoot them straight, right? It's set up to catch your attention at whatever cost that is, right? So dudes being extremely aggressive, dudes doing things that are sort of extreme or out of the ordinary or being recklessly, you know, that that's what as a young man you're kind of drawn to.
00:25:05
Speaker
That kinda turns you on and makes you wanna be more like that, right? And you want that attention just like the guys that you see online. So, the algorithms, none of them are set up to really feed you the information that's gonna make you into an actual good person, I think. Most of that stuff is reserved for real life and the people who actually care about you and in the real world.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I recall when we were reading Scarcity Brain, how he talked about how YouTube is essentially set up to give more polarizing graphic political content the longer you're on it, if you just kind of do autoplay. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, it's working. It's grabbing people's attention. And the other thing about all this stuff is it displaces the time. I mean, we talked about the four things in the last chapter, and we talked about attention fragmentation.
00:25:55
Speaker
And technically that could cause two of the other ones, right? If my attention's fragmented at work and I don't get my work done, maybe I stay up late to get my work done. Well, now I'm causing sleep deprivation or maybe I stay up late or I don't go out because I have too much to do because I spent too much time on my phone. Well, that's causing social deprivations because I don't go hang out with my friends. All these things are kind of interrelated.
00:26:20
Speaker
And, you know, as a guy who spends all his time on his phone or playing video games or whatever, that's also time not being spent with a role model and the real world that actually could be really beneficial. Yeah. So for me, chapter six, which is where it talks about how social media harms girls more than boys.
00:26:40
Speaker
started off with a terrifying story. And that really struck me because having two young girls, I know my girls will God willing grow up and be in middle school someday. But the story starts out talking about how this girl Alexis was a really good kid. And when she got to fifth grade or something, she got made fun of for playing some childish game.
00:27:07
Speaker
On a tablet and so she got pressured into getting an Instagram account and her parents were trying to protect her from that at that age and so they Didn't let her get Instagram on her iPad But she found ways around it either way and created an account and then I think it said six months later after she opened that account she was really depressed and and self-harming. And she wrote in her journal, there was a picture of her like crying in the corner. And the thought bubble with words were saying that she's worthless, die, ugly, stupid, kill yourself.
Video Games as Escapism
00:27:51
Speaker
She's like called 13 years old at this point.
00:27:54
Speaker
And it's just terrifying how quickly a kid at that age can go from being innocent, being great into self-harm, anxiousness, depression, just by having social media from Instagram and being peer pressured into it. It's terrifying for me. The parents in this story that they tried, they tried to keep her off of Instagram, but she found a way around it anyways. And so.
00:28:22
Speaker
I don't know. I think it's going to take a lot of conversation with kids and young, the younger generation to understand, have boundaries in the virtual world on the internet. I almost feel like until parents scare their kids enough about what could happen on the internet, they're never going to not do that though, right? Like you almost have to be scared of stories like that as a kid to like not try to get around it. I feel like What I'm saying is I have no idea how to solve that problem. My goddaughter was complaining about not having Instagram yet, and she's 11. This was after church, and I was like, I'm really glad you don't have that yet. Trust me, your parents love you. That's why you don't have that. Trust me, as someone guy that got sucked into it, I literally her told her it was like someone who got sucked into it. Trust me. It's it's good that you don't have it yet.
00:29:18
Speaker
It's a good uncle. so good so She's really smart. After reading this book, I'm pretty thankful that we did not grow up in this generation that was just inundated with all this stuff. Yeah. I played a lot of video games as you all know, but some of them were multiplayer for sure. Super Smash Brothers. I love Super Smash Brothers. Yeah, but like that was us.
00:29:45
Speaker
Bonding. For sure. We had no internet connection. We were there together. There no online Super Smash. We were having fun. There was no online. And it was just fun.
00:29:57
Speaker
Um, and all the other games that i've played like they're just one player or again, there's no online Online didn't exist. I do remember a few times specifically of choosing not to go play football or some sport in the yard with some friends I would choose to play video games instead by myself yeah And it didn't happen all the time I did that for sure yeah So done furthermore, on the topic of of video games, there was something that I was kind of reminded of while I was reading this, because obviously it talks about how for boys, it really sounds like it was like the combination of television and video games and these kinds of things that kind of started this inward pull. And there's something that I feel like as I've become an adult,
00:30:43
Speaker
And really just in the last like five years, so I've like come to realize like how when I was younger, I would use things like pornography or video games to cope with things. And an example I tried to explain to Ruth once before.
00:30:58
Speaker
It was something I don't think I really realized until like 10, 15 years afterwards. But I'm curious if you guys can relate to this story. So when it came to video games, I know, Matt, you sounds like you did Quest kind of video games and um maybe arcade style stuff. So I pretty much always enjoyed doing like sports video games when I was younger. So I played FIFA, I played Madden.
00:31:18
Speaker
those kind of games and Blitz. blitz yeah oh yeah oh yeah but It's interesting and this goes into it. I actually did not enjoy Blitz as much and here's the reason. I feel like is the reason why. Years later, I kind of like reflected back on it. and When I would play, for example, I would play Madden. We'll give the example.
00:31:37
Speaker
My goal was always to build the perfect team. I wanted my team to do franchise mode and I wanted the best players at every position in the league, the highest overall and that kind of thing. And I wanted to win.
00:31:50
Speaker
every single game. And I wanted, I didn't really want to be challenged, right? I don't know if you know, I wanted to finish this. Oh, you want to dominate. Yeah. Yes. And that's like something where I feel like I totally use playing video games as a kid to cope with things. Yeah. If I maybe wasn't having as much success in my social life, in my ah school life, video games were safe because I could literally dominate and I could control everything and I could be the best at everything.
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, how does that prepare you for real life though? Oh, I know man, right? It really coddles your ego, doesn't it? And then once you get dominated in the real world, you can't hang. Yeah. And I would say as I was going through the process of moving away from, you know, using pornography and kind of growing out of that phase and facing a lot of that dark areas and in my past, I really realized that I use video games in this way. And it was something that was very, I think it was very meaningful for me to see that I remember being a kid and my parents asking me like, do you never lose when you play these games? And I was like, no. Cause I remember if I would lose, I'd be in a bad mood. It would put me in a bad mood. And I would then play. Hey, you know what? Why don't you play me and see if you lose. You turn off before the game is over. No contest.
00:33:11
Speaker
Dude, i wish I wish Garrett was on right now because there is a hilarious story. Freshman year in the dorms, Garrett and I and Chad were all on the same floor. And my roommate at the time, ah he was random, he would play NCAA.
00:33:31
Speaker
And he would stand up, he was very loud and vocal, and he would be destroying the teams, like 48 to seven, right? But he was in it all the way to like the the clock expired in the fourth quarter. And so finally I had enough with it. So I, I mean, he was big, like he was a big dude. And um so I went and I got Garrett and I was like, Hey, I'm going to confront him about how crazy he's being.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I want you just to have my back. So Garrett came and I was, I went up to him and I was like, dude, you got to chill the heck out, dude. You're like beating these people. And he was like, mind your own business. This is, this is how I play. And I'm like, well, you're fricking psycho, dude, is what you are. And he started to like blow up and Garrett had to come in the room and calm us down. And the dude was a straight. He was wanting to dominate yeah just like you, Stalin.
00:34:29
Speaker
yeah you know So you can't relate to that, to what I'm saying, Rob. I can relate to seeing how bad that is. I can judge you, but I can't relate.
00:34:48
Speaker
That's all right. I can deal with that. How about you being grumpy at other people in life after you've lost at video games? Can you guys relate to that? I can't I'm in it. I'm in a bad mood after I lose a video game and it's not real life, but I am in a bad mood after that. I would just be upset if Fles and I both went to the mystery box and call of duty and he got the ray gun and I didn't. Yeah, you know what? I would say Matt Brown did a lot to help my ego kind of like
00:35:24
Speaker
tame itself in college because I had never been, I had never been spanked so bad at Super Smash in my life until I played against Matt. You could have been, you could have been missing a game of watch and just destroyed me. Game walk is great. It's so good. Who could forget about Adam's wife? My wife! My wife!
00:35:48
Speaker
ice climber You never won with ice climbers like I don't know I knew I was gonna lose anyway, so I was like, you know what Matt's gonna take me out. He's gonna take me out as ice so if you If you actually did win with ice climbers, then I'd be mad yeah um definitely yeah definitely did you go Go to your room and whip yourself on the back 60 times
00:36:19
Speaker
How could you let this happen? Where is your honor? I've been so much worse than you guys that I would only play with Snake because he had like the most powerful hits. So it's like, I knew I wasn't gonna hit you guys as often. So when I would make contact, I would mean something. Yeah, I mean, that was so fun. I remember that, Stalen. That was terrible.
00:36:41
Speaker
I was either a Samus or who else, who else would I be? And I would just sit in the back and blow, you know, get my orb ready and then just try to bounce on people. Just try to get lucky. like Yeah. I mean, we, yeah I mean, look at, look at what we just talked about. We had great memories playing video games, but then again, like 90, 95% were not online.
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah. And we're there together, like in the same room. Matt, that's kind of like fantasy football, huh? and We get addicted to fantasy football, but yet we're keeping in contact more. That's true. Yeah. I wouldn't talk to repo at all unless we had a fantasy football. Right. What's wrong with repo, dude? He's a repo. the guy she' guys A creeper far away and I'm really bad at keeping up with them. Yeah. No, I get you. But and at least once a year, I get to talk to him through painting football. That thing is like, especially after you're not in a situation like we were in college where we all live right next to each other. I don't know. I think multiplayer games are the most fun. I'm playing against another really. I think that's the most fun and it's competitive. They kind of like.
00:38:03
Speaker
makes you feel makes you feel better when you beat someone else that's not just a computer, right? Like you're like, I've got some skill or something. And yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to do after a situation like college. So I bet you do end up just kind of doing it by yourself all the time with randos on the internet. If you're not in an environment like that. And I can see how people get addicted to it for sure. Oh yeah. If I had access to it,
00:38:30
Speaker
As a kid, I definitely would have been way more addicted to video games. Whenever Halo came out and they had online multiplayer, I would have to go to my friend's house to play it. And that was the only chance I got. I had to physically go somewhere else to play it. I never had an Xbox, but I loved Halo and that was the same thing. I actually get kind of good at Halo just because I went to other people's Xboxes all the time. Yeah. Like mine probably.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yep. Yours was one. ah I thought that term in the book, the HIKI KOMORI, the Japanese term for pulling inward was interesting where. People just live in the rooms as permits and have very, very little contact outside of their own room, even with their families, saying that family members will just leave food outside of their door and not have any interaction with them. That room and being online with video games is their world. Anything outside of that is scary and interaction with real humans, even their own parents and siblings.
00:39:38
Speaker
is terrifying for them.
Technology and Social Isolation
00:39:40
Speaker
And that's an extreme example, but it sounds like according to this book, that is becoming more and more common across the world. yeah Yeah, that might be kind of precursor to what we're going to see in the US more and more.
00:39:54
Speaker
Well, like it just seems like loneliness among men is so common. I feel like it's not that, you know, it's pretty often you'll hear dabbing put out about how men are saying they have fewer and fewer close friends. And I i don't know, I think about this group of friends and we've all talked about it before, but five years ago, six years ago, we didn't didn't talk regularly. Ruth, I feel like has always stayed in touch with a group of girlfriends like every week. And I feel like there was probably a five, six year gap where I, I personally don't feel like I had that kind of community. What was the thing in this chapter that they talked about doing a study about like depression and females actually kind of transferring over to other females, button men, there was like hardly any transfer because men don't share emotional
00:40:45
Speaker
signals hardly at all like that like they'll go do things together but they won't ever pick up on the fact that oh this guy must be depressed so I feel a little bit down because he's given me he's given off the vibe like women do that I mean that was pretty interesting to me that they found that They talked about in the medieval times, there is these dancing plagues and I've listened to like podcasts and stuff before. that was in too I mean, it's fascinating. i'd I'd recommend searching this out, but what's that called? Do you remember?
00:41:19
Speaker
ah I mean, he just calls them dancing plagues, but this happened somewhat in the middle ages. And basically, there'd be some event where there'd be a dance and some people just couldn't stop. And it was ah affected women more often than men.
00:41:34
Speaker
And that kind of goes coincides with what he's talking about, what you just mentioned, Thomas, about how women tend to share things more. But it's a really it's a very interesting historical situation where some of these women and people, because it wasn't just women, would be dancing like this for days and like end up passing out, fainting, breaking bones, and like they just couldn't help but to stop dancing.
00:41:55
Speaker
And that was kind of more of a result of the, probably the mental pressures that they were under at the time, right? Like, that was like i yeah' triggered. Is that what he was saying? I think that he was kind of linking it back to that. um Maybe, or maybe he was just linking it back to the fact that women have a better tie to each other emotionally than men ever do. Yeah. Page 161, I was talking about how girls more easily share emotions and disorders. It says, it talks about how happiness and good mental health can be contagious, but depression is significantly more contagious than happiness and good mental health. And the second twist was that depression spread only from women. When a woman became depressed, it increased the odds of depression in her close friends, you male and female, by 142%. That's insane.
00:42:51
Speaker
when a man became depressed that had no measurable effect on his friends.
00:42:58
Speaker
That is crazy. Yeah. I didn't realize it would be that big of a difference between the two genders. You know, that goes on to show how this book's kind of given me more reasons to think that girls are way, um way more at risk at a young age when it comes to this kind of stuff than, than boy social media. It seems like that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:21
Speaker
But guys aren't helping at all by staying in the virtual world. Their male friends are, they're all online. They have no interaction with the girls. And so I just see the cycle where guys are sucked into the virtual world. They can't talk to real women. And then the women, they're not giving that attention in the real world. So they revert to the online world, post pictures of themselves there and try to get attention.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah. Not only that, but the the guys don't give them attention in the real world. They have all these other fake girls in the virtual world to compare themselves to that are unattainably good in whatever way that they, you know, are comparing themselves. Yeah. It's like a self-feeding loop.
00:44:09
Speaker
Let's go ahead and move on to the last section of the reading here. So in the last section of part three, Heit talks about how modern technology, specifically smartphone, affects our spiritual lives. Heit, although acknowledging that he is an atheist, notes that there is abundant evidence that spiritual practices and improve well-being. And he argues argues that modern technology disturbs or disrupts these practices.
00:44:31
Speaker
Spirituality improves our mental health through the physical community provided, embodied activity, the silence or stillness offered by prayer and meditation, seeking higher virtues, practicing forgiveness and by finding awe in nature. If you look at all six of these practices, it is easy to see how a phone-based life can interfere.
00:44:48
Speaker
Hite ends this section talking about the concept of humans having a god-shaped hole. He then astutely states that if the hole doesn't get filled with something noble and elevated, modern society will quickly pump it full of garbage. That has been true since the beginning of the age of mass media, but the garbage pump got 100 times more powerful in the 2010s.
00:45:07
Speaker
So, as a group of Christian men, I think that this last section gives us a help reminder of the harms of getting sucked into a phone-based life. So, for you guys, what are some specific ways in which you have combated the desire to let your phone and other modern technology affect your spiritual life? Mindfulness and nature are my top two, for sure. find like The finding on nature part I can relate to a lot whenever I put my phone down and I'm in nature, I contemplate a lot more and I can experience more gratitude for like real world things, you know. I get that a lot when I'm in nature and then meditation obviously helps my prayer life, helps me be more focused and attentive, can snap out of it when I'm doing like a bad habit like looking at my phone, looking at my phone, oh, I'm looking at my phone and then oh, now I'm not looking at my phone.
00:45:58
Speaker
Like I'm much better at that. The catching it part. If you're scrolling or something, I don't really do that that much anymore. Yeah. I think my hard things now are checking email. That's what I get urges for, is just checking email on my work phone. But that's something I've been working on. Trying to set up times where, okay, like I check my email at like four o'clock and that's it. Or like at 10 a.m. and four p.m. and that's it. Trying to be up work on that. I have to commend you, Fles. You are very intentional about getting out in nature and- I have to, man. I have to.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, but you don't like you actually choose to like you do a really good job And I just have to give you a lot of props because over the last couple years I've seen You do a lot of things that I'm like man. I should be doing that. That's really awesome yeah I think it's encouraging For sure plus what is your we kind of all know for the most part? But did you mind sharing a little bit what getting out nature looks like for you?
00:47:00
Speaker
Yes, I have a dog. If I have to take her on a walk, it's going to, you know, I might as well take her somewhere that's better than just my, because I live in like a more suburban area now. So like a walk outside of my apartment now is not with as much green stuff. So I have to take an intentional trip somewhere now. It's usually the only a five, 10 minute drive, even to like a short trail.
00:47:24
Speaker
Just to walk for, I don't know, half hour, a mile or two is all, I mean, it doesn't take a ton. I mean, you don't have to go do a 10 mile hike every day. I mean, shoot a mile or two in nature every day or every other day is extremely helpful. It's time where you can put your phone down and stop playing a video game and go out and do that. and You may think of something, that's when your mind wanders, you get creative, you might think of something, oh, I forgot to do X, Y, or Z, or oh, I should do this, or a lot of times I'll have thoughts like that where I'm like, yeah, if I hadn't gone and done this walk and then I wouldn't have done that. Does that answer your question?
00:48:03
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing again. and As Thomas mentioned, I feel like you've definitely, you know, I think I've always been trying to be an outdoors person, but I feel like seeing your passion for a girl has definitely helped my passion.
Mindfulness Through Nature and Boredom
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I try to like once a month, I'll mark on my calendar a longer hike, usually somewhere where I have to drive to, but it's decent, like on a weekend. And then that kind of gives me something to look forward to every month, for sure.
00:48:29
Speaker
I'm really stoked to go spend some time outdoors with you guys soon. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. For me, just to answer your question, journaling has been big. You have to be focused when you're journaling. You can't necessarily multitask because you're using your hands to write. so That's one way that has definitely helped me stay off of my phone. I do use my phone to read parts of the Bible, like the daily reading. So I do that every morning. So I am using my phone, but I'm reflecting and it's actually a tool in that sense, rather than I would say something harmful.
00:49:12
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, just trying to, whether I'm going to church to like pray specifically, not just attend mass service, but to go there, it's important to flip my phone upside down, to put it on, do not disturb. I'm not going to lie. I mean, there's times where I check the time or I get distracted and.
00:49:34
Speaker
I think for me, it's the conscious effort of going out of my way to go there, to physically go there so that I try to maximize and make the most of it rather than sitting at home and saying, saying, I'm going to pray, but then it only lasts five minutes and I'm back on my phone, you know, trying to inconvenience myself with it. But those are some specific ways.
00:49:59
Speaker
For sure. I found it interesting though. So did he claim or did he make the statement that he was atheist in this chapter? yeah did I mean, it's powerful that he recognizes the the God-shaped hole that is in everyone that needs to be filled with that. So I'd be curious to know what he fills that hole with. It is very interesting that he does concede that there are such big reasons that being spiritual are are good for us, but doesn't choose to do that.
00:50:29
Speaker
You know, yeah I love the quote about society pumping you full of garbage. Yeah. I mean, it's just so you can just see it everywhere, man. Such a vivid example, too. It's so true. Yeah. And it's so easy to fall into is the other thing. Like, I can't even blame anybody who gets pumped full of garbage because it's like, yeah, I could see how I could do the same thing.
00:50:52
Speaker
But, I mean, it's cyclical too. and You know, Matt mentioned this a bit ago, but it's like you feel crummy, so you go to something that... And again, that's like we the addiction side where you are trying to do something that you don't want to do, you're trying to do it to help yourself, but it's like you can't do that. You know, I was just out in the middle of nowhere, basically.
00:51:15
Speaker
with very bad cell service, horrible internet for work for like a little over a week. And I found myself having a lot of time. to just kind of be bored, stare at the wall. Rob had mentioned there was a trend on social media where people are trying to raw dog a flight. And what they mean by that is they just stare at the wall the entire flight and don't watch a movie. They don't listen to music. They don't look at the phone. They just its they stare at the flight map the whole time. They stare at the flight map and the tiny little plane moving across the screen. And they raw dog that flight the whole time.
00:51:53
Speaker
And I tried that for like 30 minutes. And I was like, oh my gosh, dude, this is so brutal. But it's crazy. Dude, I did that. I did that on the way to Hawaii because my headphones died. You stared at the map? You didn't even sleep? No, I didn't have anything to do. Like I just literally was in the middle seat. So there's a person next to me on each side and I didn't have anything to do because I just didn't prepare well, I guess.
00:52:21
Speaker
You're an absolute legend for that because I could sleep either because there were people here I mean I I mean the modern the modern human brain being so distracted all the time would get like PTSD immediately from having to do that like you you'd just be like but you could handle ited i was like you know what this is goingnna be like a cool meditation thing and by a five minutes and i was
00:52:52
Speaker
I used do these treadmill runs where I would turn the lights out and literally just stare at the wall for like a 50 minute treadmill run. So lights off just the wall in front of me.
00:53:04
Speaker
no stimulus and it was like one of those things is like, it definitely is mind numbing. You know what I noticed though, you you know what I noticed though is like, I feel, I felt a lot more excited about things in my life in the future because I had all that time. I felt a lot more excited to like make plans for myself and think, Oh,
00:53:27
Speaker
Man, I really would like to do this. This would be really cool if I could achieve that. Or like, hmm, how can I get to this point that I want to be at in life? And when my attention is split up so much throughout the day, those thoughts never really arise all that much. You know, so like journaling and meditation and or just being bored for once for us an extended amount of time, I think allows us a lot of time for like maybe some of these things that are almost subconscious.
00:53:55
Speaker
that we really want to do or to achieve or to kind of like aspire to, actually come through and maybe turn into an actual thought that could lead to an action that you're really happy you you acted on. You know, it's ah one I've been doing is no headphones at the gym. Just the sound of the just the iron, whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. And they look around now and it's like, holy cow, everybody's on their phone.
00:54:21
Speaker
nobody's talking like it's just like you're right next to somebody you're not saying anything to that person i don't remember being with that much rocking out to party in the USA by Miley Cyrus blasting over the gym speakers maybe maybe just because music was better i don't know it's like being a silent disco and you take your headphones off yeah awkward
00:54:47
Speaker
Back to what Rob had brought up there and with all of her talking about like with the god shaped hole, you definitely see how modern technology with this gives one a sense more of I can just find the thing that will make me happy. Because it feels like there's just so many more ah things, you know, quote unquote things out there to be entertained by, to steal our attention. And I think with that, it makes sense that, you know, we get more allured to these things or, you know, spiritual growth, spiritual development, like the inward spiritual growth, the personal spiritual growth, of the time that it spends praying, meditating, reading.
00:55:24
Speaker
I'm not the best with that. I know I could do better about really making the time to do that because i and I know I can get distracted and justify it by, oh, I'm you know i'm getting community in a Bible study or i'm I'm going to church on Sundays. But for me, it's going in and out of those phases of being a consumer um versus being someone who's really kind of initiating that growth for myself. Matt, anything you you any thoughts on your end?
00:55:47
Speaker
I don't know if I have anything additional from what you guys already said. I do like being in nature a lot. When I was in Tennessee on vacation, I would just go on and the back porch and look out at the view and just enjoy it. Enjoy the sounds of nature. Look for bears. Come jump in the lake with me, Matt. Yeah, I will. I did enjoy this last chapter, particularly the secular definition of the profane versus the sacred.
00:56:15
Speaker
I thought that was really cool. How the profane is ordinary, self-focused consciousness. Sacred is the realm of the collective. And when we do things with a group of people, doing those things together can raise you up on the sacred realm. And then doing things individually, like looking at your phone is just a profane thing. It's a downgrade and there's nothing sacred to that.
00:56:45
Speaker
And he he did make the difference of, you know, there are things like meditation and prayer that our individual acts that can be sacred. But his point is just looking at your phone all the time, being addicted to that is you're isolated from the community. You're isolated from everyone else and everything that you're doing is just inwardly
Community Challenges to Reduce Screen Time
00:57:09
Speaker
focused. It's a selfish thing to do.
00:57:12
Speaker
All right guys, I guess we're doing no phone November. guys
00:57:19
Speaker
just We should, we should have a competition on screen time. So who uses their phone the least work phones included or yes. you hey No, well, you can't cheat on your work phone. Yeah, yeah that's a good call. You guys off screen time on Thomas. You're the only Android user here. No, mine has a weekly report. Let's look right now. Let's see who has the best and the worst. Mine. My last one was from the fourth to the 10th. That was last week.
00:57:54
Speaker
What do you got total time, uh, average daily four hours, but Google maps was my top app and WhatsApp was my, was my second. So eight hours of that was just communication and mapping. I'm at five and a half hours or five hours and 37 minutes. That's not that much. shootah Yeah. But I'm seeing, I'm over here. I'm over here on the single grind swiping away. I still feel like that's not that much that compared to a lot of the.
00:58:20
Speaker
Mine was four at four hours and five minutes. Three hours and 27 minutes. Hey, nice Rob. That was good. I had mine turned off so I have zero data.
00:58:33
Speaker
I had an hour and three minutes, an hour and three minutes on my personal and I had three hours and 57 on my work. Okay. So you were about like where I was. Can I just list mine out here? Okay. Chat GPT four and a half hours.
00:58:50
Speaker
for the further the the week yeah That's terrible. Messages two hours, a seven minutes, calm app, an hour and 44 hinge, an hour and a half road warrior, which is an app I use for work as an hour and 20 and safari for an hour meal. What are you talking to chat GPT about for four hours?
00:59:12
Speaker
that That's like, I think that's the week. That's over a week. That's the whole week. That's not crazy. What? That's less than an hour a day. That's like, I'm learning all kinds of stuff. No, no, I've used that pickup line already, Chad GPT. Pretty much. Pretty much. And that's why it just keeps sending the same date ideas. Is that why you always go to the park and then mini golf?
00:59:41
Speaker
exactly see its ch its It's the chat GPT it's not me no che g beatt this one's for Hannah but Chat is getting jealous like why don't you ever take me on a date Adam? um Oh, um I might just start dating judge EBT. It's like Siri when you're like talk dirty to me Siri and it's like the carpet needs cleaning.