Transcript
Speaker: So the beliefs around your bodily autonomy and who you are as a sexual being are ingrained by the age of five.
Speaker: Hey sister friend, it's Heather Georgel, your certified life and NLP practitioner. And here we make doing the inner work not suck by talking about all things motherhood, womenhood, sex, and everything in between. Are you ready? Let's talk. This is the sex and motherhood podcast. I am so excited for today's episode because it is going to leave you feeling empowered and ready
Speaker: to heal from your own sex, story, trauma, whatever it may be. And I have an expert Liz Martin on today, and she is a sex positive parenting coach, the CEO and founder of Empower the Talk, and she is a certified sex educator.
Speaker: She has been in the field of social work for over eight years and she's self -employed and she's been doing this for over five years. She is passionate about supporting mamas and building a sex -positive home while healing their relationship with sexuality.
Speaker: She has been married to her partner for five years and is a mama to two toddlers. She has created this space for deep healing work out of the lack of resources that she found available to her when starting her own journey of becoming sex positive over the last 10 years. So get ready. This is going to be an amazing episode. Liz, we are so excited to have you on. Can you please introduce yourself?
Speaker: Hi, I am Liz Martin. I am a sex positive parenting coach and a certified sex educator. I talk about all things pleasure and sex all day long. Literally every bit of conversation that I have somehow connects back to that and it has been the most empowering experience for me and watching my clients work through that. My background is as a social worker so
Speaker: I'm pretty comfortable having pretty deep intimate conversations, but it didn't always stay in this space. And so as I transitioned into more of this line of work, I found this space that wasn't talked about and that there weren't enough resources out there. And so creating this dialogue and this narrative around sex and pleasure that most Volvo owners don't have support in learning or are taught not to learn it at all.
Speaker: and just having really powerful conversations around this.
Speaker: What is a vulva owner? What is a vulva owner?
Speaker: Because we give all of our genitalia terms that maybe are a little more comfortable because for whatever reason vulva or penis or vagina is hard to say okay. A lot of people have been taught the word vagina but vulva is the external anatomy.
Speaker: And that is an important distinction between internal and external anatomy. And I choose to use that phrasing of this is a part of your body, it does not define 100 % of who you are as a being, but you have a vulva and it's important to know how it works and what it does and what pleasure it can create.
Speaker: I love that, I love that. See, guilty, I'm always like, I thought I was teaching my children the right terms. My son has a penis, my daughter has a vagina, but you're right, I'm totally missing one of the words. It's because I wasn't educated in my own bodily functions, my own body parts, because we used different words like secret or, you know, just different things to make other people comfortable because apparently,
Speaker: The real terms.
Speaker: make people uncomfortable, but that also can lead to a lot of not so great things when you're using cutesy names. Yeah, like I think it's important. So I had mentioned my backgrounds as a social worker too. And so for me, I had that whole insight of working in the space of prevention of CPS being involved and working in a lot of clients homes in that way. And these conversations came up a lot and the importance, and there's a lot of statistics out there that
Speaker: teaching the anatomical terms keeps your children safer and allows for less risk of abuse. And so if that is a simple thing that you can do in your home to keep your children safer of using the anatomical terms, that is something that can be easily implemented and learning the distinction
Speaker: between vulva and vagina of internal and external anatomy and understanding that. And I proudly talk about the day that my now four -year -old said the word vulva for the first time, patted her diaper. And I was like, this is my proudest day as a mother. Like hearing a little like one and a half year old say the word vulva, I was like, oh my gosh. And she knows like, this is my body. This is my vulva. I own this. And I legitimately cried on the day of the proudest day as a mother.
Speaker: I love that. It's so important. It's like your child's first form of empowerment, of knowing what they're in control of. Because let's face it, kids want to be in control of whatever they can be in control of, right? Like, that's just the way that it goes. But I know that you do so much on, one, healing from your own sexual traumas and stories, which we're going to kind of dive into that a little bit, and also having a sex positive home. And I know that
Speaker: they both definitely go together. And we could talk about it for probably hours. But I know that you're going to be a returning guest. So I really I feel like the first step is healing your own story. And
Speaker: I really feel like that's a great place to start. What are you feeling? Do you think that's good? Yeah, yeah. So even what you brought up there in your story of, oh yeah, I've been using the word vagina, right? Like if we don't have this own self -empowerment of our own body and our own story and our own rights as just a being, that pleasure is your birthright, you have to learn that for yourself before you can
Speaker: that to somebody else. I mean, I think about all of the context and ways our children learn in general, right? Like they have to take that in and then the ultimate skill is teaching it back to somebody, right? It's the same thing for us as adults of making sure that we have healed our story or at least are in the process of rewriting a story that serves us well before we start working with our children in that way so that we are coming into that space without our own
Speaker: traumas and baggage and insecurities around those things. And that is my social worker brain of the distinction between the two of like, I can't be working with a client from my own unhealed trauma, right? You have to be in a space that you can safely communicate that.
Speaker: I love that, I love that. So when you say that we need or you as the listener needs to heal from their own story, what does trauma around sex or intimacy or pleasure actually look like so that you know? Because I think sometimes there's a lot of different ways to look at it. So do you think that you can define that a little bit so that we know if there is a trauma that maybe we're holding on to and what that looks like?
Speaker: Yeah, so I had a conversation with somebody a couple months ago and I had used this language and she was almost a little bit put off by me saying this of like she did not define what her experience with sex was as trauma and was
Speaker: almost alarmed by this language that I was using because she had not ever been in an abusive relationship, had never experienced sexual assault. And she was like, I, this isn't trauma, right? And so then we started diving a little bit deeper into what her narrative around sex was and what her experience was. And she was like,
Speaker: I see it all now, like, okay, this story is not serving me well. So I want you to kind of take off that blinder of trauma being this thing where police are involved or you have been raped or a sexual assault. That is 100 % trauma, right? That is a really traumatic event.
Speaker: that it takes years of work and healing to recover from. But there are also these small t traumas, right, these experiences that we have around what we're taught. So in the example that we just talked about of my daughter learning her own body, I now have two that can say the word vulva and it is like
Speaker: cheering them on every time, right? This knowledge of empowering her body, that she owns her body, right? That this is her body that she is the boss of. That is the first step in awareness of how your body shows up in the world. And if you are taught differently than that, that you owe your body to somebody else, or it is your obligation as a woman to fulfill this need, that messes with your brain.
Speaker: right, and we might not ever label that as trauma, but that messes with your brain and how you react to things and how you show up in the world. So I don't want you to think of trauma as this like really big thing that we see about in the news, okay, of it can be these minor things. So some things that you could think about is the way that pleasure was talked about, the way that sex was talked about in your home. If sex was even talked about at all, if the words were even used, okay,
Speaker: If you grew up in a space where faith and religion had a play in those conversations, some people do very much consider that trauma or the realm of purity culture and what that did to their belief around sex and pleasure and that that doesn't just turn off if and when they choose to become married that that's still an ingrained belief in their brain and
Speaker: all of these pieces play into what your current story around sex is. And my goal in working with a client isn't to say this is what your story should be. It is giving space an opportunity to create a narrative that serves you well. Maybe you are still somebody that
Speaker: has very strict boundaries around sex and pleasure, and that is okay. If that is what works best for you as a person and what you define as serving you well, I will cheer you on every step of the way, but understanding that there are so many pieces that go into what our belief around sex and pleasure is.
Speaker: I love that because in my own story that I shared, it was intimacy and this vulnerability that comes with just sex. And to me, sex is more than just sex, right? It's this full body connection with yourself, which I'm learning with your partner. And I really feel like there's a piece of you that
Speaker: is taken and there's a piece that's also given when you share with someone else and I guess I always thought that like I was kind of I took it in I'm sure there's pieces that I'm missing in my own unconscious right like
Speaker: That's what your mind does is fill in the blanks. But it was always this locked door that you didn't really get the key to unless you were married. And then all of a sudden, it was just supposed to be OK. And how I've been working on for years to figure out this tug of war inside of it's bad. No, it's good. No, it's OK for me to feel this way. No, it's not OK for you to feel this way. And it's been a really big struggle. So why is it important to define
Speaker: what sex or intimacy or pleasure really means to you and defining it in a way that has you feeling empowered so that you really can heal from a story that's not serving you.
Speaker: Yeah. So I think a lot of times when we talk about the realm of sex positivity or specifically me and what I do of talking about everything from your relationship to sex with a bedroom accessory, so vibrators and lubricant, all these things, that it is the assumption that my goal is for you to have the freakiest, most frequent sex ever. Okay.
Speaker: I get this perception put on me a lot of that that is what the ultimate outcome is that that is that is the peak here. Okay. That is not the definition of sex intimacy or pleasure. Right. Every single person has the power to define what that looks like for them. And we talked about this a little bit earlier on of being pleasure
Speaker: is lumped into this and just assumed that it is sex, right? And we have this taboo view of sex or intimacy or pleasure, that those aren't topics that we can discuss earlier on, right? So you shared that journey of once you were married, then the door was accessible, but you had no back
Speaker: background of what those things looked like right like what what it looked like to engage safely in those things and to know your body and what the experience could be like in those things right and so this whole journey of understanding pleasure for you.
Speaker: is more than just sex. It is a personal journey. It doesn't even always have to be a part of another body connecting. It is understanding what feels right for your body and what makes you feel confident and empowered in the space that you're holding.
Speaker: that sex and intimacy comes from that same space. So you mentioned the word vulnerability. Vulnerability creates space for more vulnerability, whether that is internal of you being really aware of where you're at. And that can be very scary and very intimidating of what things that are all happening up here. But also, if that's in the context of a partnership, if you are choosing to show up to that space in vulnerability,
Speaker: oftentimes that is reciprocated, right? When we have the safety around vulnerability, your partner is then showing that back, right? And so that's where the intimacy comes from. There may be no physical touch happening, but the power of intimacy in that vulnerability is what allows that to continue growing. So as we're redefining this, I think it's taking the
Speaker: boxes that we've put around each of them out of it. The definition of pleasure has nothing to do with sex. It's something that feels good. That's it. Like it's something that feels good. My first sip of coffee in the morning, that is probably the most pleasure I will feel in a 24 hour period. Okay. It is the thing that gives me life every single day. And right now, like pumpkin spice,
Speaker: Oh, it does things for my body. Okay. So redefining what pleasure looks like and taking it out of that, like, Oh, this is sex. This is taboo box and understanding what each of those spaces actually are. And same for intimacy, right? Like you can feel this level of intimacy in this conversation that you and I are having right here, right?
Speaker: And there is no other, like we're on camera, right? We are not sitting next to each other. There's no contact happening here, but this is a really intimate, vulnerable conversation that we're having. And so just kind of expanding what the definitions of the words are in themselves is that basic first step that you can take.
Speaker: I love that. I'm feeling that so much. I mute myself, guys, because while she's talking, I'm just like, yes, yes, preach. I have to mute. So I'm not, like, overlapping. It's so important, the way that redefining just the simplest of words, because they are simple words. And because there's this narrative
Speaker: that they're naughty or you know if you go around and you are okay saying sex or vulva or vagina or penis like the actual terms that you must be dirty or like and maybe not everyone thinks that but it sure seems to be the context and conversations that I've had that those are terms to keep at home and that it's not something that we share out in public and I think
Speaker: I know for my own personal self that being able to really feel empowered with yourself is going back to where the belief came from that you have around
Speaker: what sex or intimacy or pleasure or about your body in general is like your view of your body starts so young. And I know this has so much on this because limiting beliefs are formed well before the age of seven. They're well, even, you know, at the womb, they can be in a past life. It can be passed down to you genealogically. There's so much stored in your unconscious.
Speaker: that you don't even realize has been at work probably before you were even born. And it's so important to be able to rewire that or to know if it's actually your own belief or if it's been placed upon you. And if it has, I promise you your parents are doing the best that they could just like their parents before them, just like their parents before them, and just like you're doing now.
Speaker: It's just this circle of life. So explain to us, please Liz, everything that I know about limiting beliefs, but this is a new concept about what you really believe about your body. You were talking about it on your Instagram I saw. So I'm going to let you share the details, but can you talk a little bit about how those beliefs start and when you really know yourself and your body?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So the beliefs around your bodily autonomy and who you are as a sexual being are ingrained by the age of five. Like that is mind blowing. My oldest daughter is just over four right now. And the things that she already believes about her body.
Speaker: Right. And like anyone that has talked to a toddler, a preschooler, anyone in that room, you know, that they have some very strong opinions, for better or worse, very strong opinions. Okay. Those beliefs are ingrained in them. And it's the space that they've been taught to believe. Right. And that they, we aren't born hating our bodies. We aren't born hating our sexuality. We aren't born
Speaker: hating who we are as a being. That is a learned behavior, which is really sucky to take in and sit with that of like, oh, this is learned. How I look at myself in the mirror every day is a learned behavior. And so understanding that all of these pieces play into it, right? This is so much of something that it's either serving you well, and you're showing up well in it,
Speaker: Or you now have the option to rewrite that you now have the option to form a new narrative around that. And that that is also really challenging work. Okay, this is not something that you will listen to this single episode and be like, All right, I'm good to go. I feel better about who I am.
Speaker: done, right? Like, no, this is years of story and years of narrative that has been built up. And Heather, you and I were talking a little bit about that, the power in the brain, right? The way that those paths rewire and that that is something that is possible. You can have a new narrative around this and you can show up differently in the world and you can choose to look at your body differently. And in a way that says, thank you for serving me.
Speaker: versus being shamed for the extra stretch marks or the extra cushion that you have somewhere, right? Like instead of feeling that around your body that you can thank your body for, it's a lot comfier sitting on this chair right now with a bigger cushion right here, okay? Like all of this is the power of rewriting and how you show up and all of those things affect your level of how you engage in intimacy and how you engage in connection. You think about
Speaker: being in space with a partner, right? A lot of the women that I work with are really uncomfortable being naked.
Speaker: that's a really vulnerable space to be in. And if you're at a space that you've been taught to shame your body or you've been taught to be, it needs to look this certain way in order to be worthy of being acknowledged, that shows up in how you connect with other people, right? Like all of this story starts very young. One of my others, I'll say my second proudest moment as a mom, okay? My daughter and I were going swimsuit shopping at Target this past season.
Speaker: and we were trying on different swimsuits and seeing like what she wanted to do and it was the first time that I didn't have to wear like worry about a swim diaper so I was like yeah you pick out whatever you want like this is great we're potty training this is gonna be fantastic she put on this swimsuit and she looks in the mirror and she goes
Speaker: my body is too strong for this. I literally started crying in the dressing room that that was the language she used to explain that this swimsuit did not fit her. It was too small. But instead of saying it's too small for my body, she said my body is too strong for this swimsuit. And that
Speaker: Oh, that did some things to my brain. That did some things. I don't know like how she came up with this language, but I realized the way that I talk about my body and the way that she sees me talk about my body. And it was this really powerful moment of reflection in, she's not even five yet, right? And so watching that path be ingrained of how we talk about our bodies and how our bodies
Speaker: show up in the world and it did a lot to my brain. That's amazing. It's so invigorating to a mama for sure to see or hear your child's
Speaker: Do things the way that you really wish that you would have done when you were younger, like if you could go back. It's also like, you know, you kind of get that real sad mom feel when like maybe they respond the way that you don't want them to respond because you're like, oh shoot, do I sound like that? This is bad. Let's start over. We do do overs at my house when things happen.
Speaker: How would you rather respond? Like, let me let you do that again. When you were saying stretch marks, I'm like, no, they're called love marks because I've said it so often that like to my kids, my stretch marks, which are like from
Speaker: oh man it's like my whole stomach really and they would be like mom what are those and I'd be like oh they're my love marks because for every kick every punch every like little thing that you did I got a mark from it and it's been so interesting because I see them and I'm like wow I'm not like ashamed by them anymore like I used to feel so stuck in this you know when me and my husband are like gonna be
Speaker: Thank you, thank you. We're like, I'm like lights out. I don't want you to see all this because I'm not comfortable with this. And it's so interesting because every time that I've done that, I almost feel that I'm taking something away from him too. Because the way that he touches me,
Speaker: there's parts in my head that goes, ooh, don't touch me because that's this. Like, those are my love handles or that's like a rule. Like, don't touch that, that's gross. But he's not thinking that. And I guarantee that most partners aren't thinking that when you're in the moment. And his big thing was, okay, when you go into this, when you go into this call, please ask her how you're supposed to get out of your head so that you can just be like in the moment. And I'm like, I don't know if Liz will know the answer.
Speaker: That is so funny because you literally already answered it. You literally already answered it. So you heard me say the word stretch marks and you're like, no, that's this.
Speaker: That is the power of rewriting your story. That's how you get out of your head. You instantly heard that language and switched it in your head, right? In my home, we refer to them as tiger stripes a lot of like this very like fierce thing, right? And I have kids that are like super into animals. So it works well of like the connections here, right? But that is what it is. You rewrite the paths in your brain. That's how you get out of your head, right? A lot of this space of
Speaker: showing up differently with your partner comes from insecurity, right? Like when we want the lights out or we want to make sure that a certain part is hidden. It is a process, right? So I work with a lot of women of like, let's find lingerie that ask like key features that you feel really good about that makes that the focal point. And then you slowly start rewriting of like, oh, this thing isn't bothering anyone.
Speaker: Like your stretch marks, your love marks, your tiger stripes aren't bothering anyone. And through that path of rewriting that, it is a learned behavior, just as it was a learned behavior to get there. And so it is an intentional process of rewriting that. And a lot of the exercises that I do with my clients are going through that process. It's a pattern of repetition of rewriting that story. And you start out,
Speaker: not believing that new narrative, right? Like it feels really uncomfortable. One of the practices that I do a lot with my clients is when they are in the shower, you are completely, I assume most people are completely naked in the shower. Like what, maybe you're at the gym shower, I don't know, but I assume that most people are
Speaker: And probably a good portion of the time also doing it alone, right? But for me at least, when I'm in the shower, that isn't this like moment of intimacy or connection with my body. It's just, I need to hurry up because I also need to go make breakfast and you know, like all the to -do lists after that, like everything. So like,
Speaker: Let me make sure I can do the shower as quick as possible. But one of the exercises that I work with my clients a lot on is taking literally two minutes in the shower to thank their bodies, to thank each part of their body for serving them well and making that a pattern of repetition. Is it going to change everything overnight? Absolutely not.
Speaker: but seeing the transformation over multiple times of this practice and how then it starts affecting how they show up differently in the conversations with their partner because they are aware of their body. They have thanked their body. They have thanked their scars and their stretch marks and their arms that are flabbier than they wanted, but then, oh wow, look at how this body is serving me.
Speaker: And that my body, like these arms are still washing my hair just fine, right? Like this awareness of our body that we are often taught in a hustle culture to not even take that space, right? To not even sit with our bodies. And again, people assume that I'm like, go buy a vibrator and that that's the solution to everything, right? But it is this intimate connection with your body that isn't about that.
Speaker: Right. It is understanding how your body is and being grateful for it the way it is right now. And that it doesn't have to change. It doesn't have to lose weight. It doesn't have to be skinnier. It doesn't have to be tanner. It can be just as it is and serve us really, really well. And that intentional practice of rewriting.
Speaker: I really love that because I think, I think for the most part, 99 % of women have something that they are insecure about, whether, you know, in my case, I have fingertips and, you know, or like,
Speaker: maybe you wish you were leaner. I know like a lot of women that would just wish that they were leaner and they're I don't know you can't see air quotes but the skinny fat and I'm sure the women that feel like they're fat better like I'll take skinny fat any day like it's just you know or you know I'm size eight and people are like oh I'd be totally down for that I'm like no way give me size c like there's always something that we're constantly comparing and
Speaker: The reason why I even started this podcast was so that there would be more conversation and a way to make doing the inner work not suck. Because yes, is it work to change and rewire the way that you think? Yes, but that doesn't mean that it has to suck. And it doesn't mean that
Speaker: it's gonna happen overnight because real change does not happen quickly. It can happen faster than you probably thought possible when you're on the right track, when you have proper support and really having the time and the space and giving yourself grace to move through your journey and realizing that every part of that journey
Speaker: is beautiful and it's where you are meant to be right now. And we need to constantly evolve. Your relationship with yourself evolves. Your relationship with others evolves. Boundaries evolve or disintegrate. I just wish that we had more curiosity and not being stuck in this bubble. And I think that really comes with
Speaker: the things that we've learned, the things that are passed down, that we don't even know are passed down, and wanting to actually change your own story, but being able to cross that cross.
Speaker: cross that threshold between love and fear. And I think a lot of us get stuck at this threshold of, do I love myself or do I stay where I am? And I'm too scared to move forward. Because for a long time, losing weight meant to me that I'm going to be a completely different person. And as I've journeyed and evolved and changed my mindset, it's just interesting to see
Speaker: what really takes place when you allow time and space and like the grace that you need to heal and it's not one size fits all.
Speaker: I that brings up something for me of this belief that we have around a lot of other spaces that in most other parts of life evolution is accepted and encouraged in the context of like you go to school you graduate from college and then you get a job like you went to school to get a job right but you're probably not going to stay at that job for
Speaker: Four years 10 years right like there's going to be a point that you move to another job that pays you better should be at least right like evolution here right we see that happen with our kids of yes we want them to stay babies forever because they're cute and snuggly and the smell and all the things.
Speaker: But they are going to grow. They're going to change. They're going to evolve into this new being. But for whatever reason, we have this conditioned belief around our relationships and around our story of sex that the person that we marry is the same person that we will die next to. We have monogamy as the default and this belief around that, that that person that you fell in love with will be the exact same person 10, 20, 30 years from now.
Speaker: And that's not true, right? All people grow, all people change. And the goal, if you're choosing to be monogamous, is to grow together, right? And to be on that journey together, but that you should want this growth and this space of new and learning and education. I come from a space that I
Speaker: truly believe that education is power and that we shouldn't ever stop learning right and that there's always new things to learn and I know you have like all this brain science knowledge that just blows my mind every time and that that is powerful right like learning how these things actually happen
Speaker: in our brain is so powerful and that that allows space for that growth and that you are allowed to rewrite your story around sex and to choose to do that isn't selfish. You're allowed to prioritize sex and pleasure and ultimately show up better in the world when you do so and that we're often taught as a woman that that's selfish and that just couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker: I love that. I mean, you said that so beautifully. There's not really much to add. Like, in one of our other episodes with Rachel Elder, she talks about how
Speaker: when you're growing and evolving in a relationship that really the intimacy in a relationship is not just sex and how it's how you handle hard conversations. It's how you communicate with each other. It's so many different things and I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes for that episode.
Speaker: it's just amazing that the way that she described it as evolving together is sometimes you're going to be a little ahead in the race and your you know your partner is going to be a little behind and then it's going to you're going to be at the same point and you're going to both be evolving together and then the other person is going to be a little ahead and you're going to be there
Speaker: And then sometimes the other person just never comes and catches up. And I think sometimes when it's that way, whether it's you that doesn't want to catch up or whether it's the partner that doesn't want to catch up.
Speaker: It's really important to realize that just because you're in a relationship with someone now, if you're evolving and they are not wanting to evolve with you, I mean, after a certain amount of time, each one of us knows that time where we're like, well, this just isn't working anymore. And it's okay to not be in that relationship or to reevaluate it and talk about the desires that you have because
Speaker: It's so important to have that open communication and if you can't start now just being able to talk like I don't know we were talking about pleasure a while back that.
Speaker: you know, with your kids, like, oh, do you like this food? Does it make you feel good? Does it bring you pleasure to eat that? And making it a normal thing to hear so that when you hear things in conversation, they're gonna grow up and be able to have the conversations that you're probably not having with your own partner right now. Because we wanna create our next generation to be better than we were, just like the generation before us was trying, right? Like, and I think it's just so important to realize
Speaker: that where you are right now, let's just say you're struggling in your relationship and you have a partner that really is dragging you down and the desires that you had, they're not the same person anymore. And it's okay to reevaluate that relationship because you can be committed to someone and they can be a completely different person.
Speaker: if they're not choosing to evolve. I could talk about this forever, but I'm not going to babble because I could, but like being able to realize
Speaker: that having those conversations openly and honestly with each other creates more intimacy, creates more vulnerability, can help you redefine different things just by being curious about what their desires are and what your desires are so that you can move into a space of abundance because you talked about that having gratitude for your body
Speaker: There's something about being in a state of abundance and gratitude that is so cleansing for the soul that really, truly helps you put more grace and welcome grace into your life. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the key word, curiosity, right? This is one that I love sitting with and talking with my clients about because often around these conversations, we get a lot of shame and guilt that comes up.
Speaker: And so I think if we can frame that with a lens of curiosity instead of that's bad, that's naughty, that's wrong, or I've committed to them, or whatever the story is of really just framing it around curiosity, curiosity about your body.
Speaker: Why did you tell yourself that as you looked in the mirror? Where did that come from, right? Who told you that your body shouldn't look that way, right? And being curious about that versus coming from a space of dislike or shame or guilt, right? And that is also the same context in your relationships, right? Of just curiosity. And Rachel is incredible and talks about this a lot. I love all the stuff she puts out. So yes, be sure to link that to go follow her too.
Speaker: because she has all of these conversations of curiosity and what it looks like to be curious about the dynamics between you and your partner, right? And that it can come from this space of just curious communication, that it doesn't have to be that they're saying this thing because they want you to feel bad about it, or that they're upset that you didn't cook them your favorite dinner,
Speaker: whatever it can literally just be curious and have that as the basis of the conversation and that being the same basis in the conversations with ourselves and that piece of communication is also internal communication and understanding where your body is at and being curious about your own body and the own narrative that you have around it. I love that. I love that Liz because
Speaker: There's, when you say curious about your own body, I'm like, oh, when you say that, even now with all of the work that I've done, the work is never done, really. Like there's no checklist. That's why it's a journey. It's not a marathon. It's not a race. It's an adventure. It's a journey. There's going to be ups and downs and twists and turns and maybe detours. Like it's just part of the journey. And when you say you got to be curious about your own body, I immediately am like,
Speaker: I do. No, no, no, no, absolutely not. And then I'm like, but why not? Like who says I can't be? Like where, like what? And I always refer to that as the root cause. Like where is it really stemming from? Because when you can remove the root,
Speaker: so many more possibilities can just erupt. And it makes it so much more pleasurable to do the inner work on yourself, to change your story, to rewire a different story. And it's just amazing how
Speaker: being able to know yourself is really the first step of healing. Would you say like really knowing yourself and what that feels like and what you really desire it to be is like the first step to healing to me? I mean, what do you say Liz? Yeah, yeah. It is that first step, that first moment of understanding who you are. And I think for a lot of people, you are not alone in that experience of like,
Speaker: I don't even know how to sit with that, right? I don't even know how to start that process, be curious about myself, right? So I said earlier, education is power in this, right? And I think sometimes that if we come into this conversation from almost an analytical perspective, it gives us permission to separate it.
Speaker: because if we just go right into the deep feels, that is very hard and very intimate and very challenging. As a social worker that goes into the deep feels a lot, there is a lot of emotional baggage that comes up in that. One of the books that is like,
Speaker: Ah, the holy grail of education come as you are by Emily Nagoski. She is a PhD sex educator. She is incredible. But she talks about this concept of how your brain works around desire. And a lot of people I see in my space come into this space of like,
Speaker: I don't have enough of a drive. I want to change that. And that's their starting point. That's their reasoning for starting this conversation, because it's too intimate. It's too personal to say, oh, I don't feel good about my story with sex. I want to rewrite that. But they can say, I'm not meeting my partner's needs in quotations, or I'm not turned on enough for my partner. How do I change that?
Speaker: That is like a very surface level conversation, right? Like there's so much that is under that and so much that goes into that, but that is the first point of like, oh, you're ready for another level of this conversation, right? And one of the concepts that Emily Nagoski talks about is this dual control model in our brain. And this is the sciency thing that I love, okay? So we think about desire as a light switch.
Speaker: off and on. You're either turned on or you're turned off. That's not how your brain works. That's not the science of it. Your brain works in both an accelerator and a brake system. Okay. So for most Volvo owners, I hear the narrative of I can't even be in the moment because I have the to -do list of all 47 other things that I need to finish
Speaker: Before the next day of I need to switch the laundry over, haven't packed the lunches yet. Did I turn the light, did I even lock the front door did I take the trash out right and then there is nothing sexy that's happening at that point when you have that laundry list of things to do, right.
Speaker: your break system being activated. Most people have a low, medium, or high break system, and it's all about where you fall in that break system of how sensitive it is to that list in your head. The list will probably never go away, but it's the sensitivity level to that list, okay?
Speaker: you also on the reverse have an accelerator and it is that same low medium high sensitivity that some people your partner can just like brush your arm you're like yeah let's do it I'm there I'm ready right I don't know many people who identify as women that have that experience there are some out there there are okay but most women don't identify that way right because if your partner comes up and touches your butt while you're cooking dinner you're like get off of me I'm busy
Speaker: Right, like I am I am doing this is not the right context for this right that's a normal occurrence okay so it's that awareness of the sensitivity of the accelerator of how much input, do you need right and what is the context of that input.
Speaker: Do you need to have finished a task before your brain is available for that accelerator to work and awareness of what things accelerate you? Do you need to have like 10 minutes before bed to read a spicy book to get your brain there because you need the intellectual stimuli? Do you need to like have your own shower by yourself of like having some quiet time you, right? Like awareness of how your accelerator system works.
Speaker: And this book specifically lays all of this out in a educational way that gives you permission to absorb it in that context versus all of the juicy emotional goodness that can also come up, right? Like this understanding of how your brain actually works in this conversation. And that that can be a really
Speaker: simpler way to start this process that will still take many, many months and years of work, but that that can be a really powerful starting point. That's so true. Oh my goodness. We've talked about so many things. We've talked about knowing how to identify what trauma actually looks like around sex and intimacy and pleasure.
Speaker: We've talked about how you're even able to define what that means to you. And we've talked about evolving for yourself. And we learned about the anatomy, autonomy, right? Am I saying that right? Can't even talk. We've talked about using the proper terms for your body.
Speaker: And so many other good things, like I could go on and on and on. The last thing that I really, I mean, I don't know, it's the last thing, but let's just pretend that it's the last thing. You talk a lot about how
Speaker: with intimacy and pleasure and sex or the vulnerability, how there needs to be the right elements of two things that you need. And those two things you say are safety and consent. So tell me why that makes things, tell me why.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think a lot of times these conversations that start very early, that is where the story begins, right? So I talked about that belief that you have around your body or your bodily autonomy is ingrained by age five, okay? So this concept for a lot of vulva owners
Speaker: is that they owe to their partners some form of affection, some form of physical intimacy. And that is something that is ingrained in most of us, right? Whether or not it was a verbal response that we were ever told, that that is an ingrained belief taught by society, taught by the people around us, whatever, right? And that whole basis right there, that's not consent then.
Speaker: All right, so when we think about consent, I think it's often a buzzword, but we don't go into what all consent is. Consent is freely given. That means that there is no coercion in place. That means that there isn't the, if you do this, I'll do this, response. That means that there are no substances involved, that you are in a space that you're able to make a clear decision about what is being asked consent for, right?
Speaker: It's also really specific. So in the context of a relationship, you could consent to some form of oral play, but that not be intercourse, right? That it's specific, that there are lines there, and that that is a new form of consent then. Consent is something that
Speaker: We just assume isn't relevant once we're married because we chose to spend our life with this person, right? And that is not true. That is not true. The conversation of consent may sound different and may become more nonverbal in some ways, the longer that you've been with a person, but consent is still relevant.
Speaker: I think that we assume that the conversation of consent takes the sex appeal out of it, that if you're asking this, but no, like you can have a really steamy scene of like, can I push you against the wall, right? Like you can get like super into it and it'd be really sexual, but there's still being an
Speaker: higher space of consent, right? All of these conversations and how that affects the way that we show up. So several of my clients have had an experience of sexual trauma and that affects your story around sex.
Speaker: so deeply, right? Your body's been harmed. You've been told that your consent doesn't matter and is irrelevant in this, right? And that sex in general is a really intimate, emotional thing, right? And so that rewrites all of the paths around what is safe and what's not.
Speaker: consent is something that continues to come up over and over and over. And I think understanding what consent actually sounds like and having a really clear understanding of how that can happen in a conversation. And that consent isn't just with a romantic partner.
Speaker: Right? Like I talk about consent in my home with my little children, right? This is something that we all have to engage in at some degree with the people around us and that these conversations have that basis of safety then. So if you are starting these conversations with your partner, having really clear boundaries around what this looks like, right? Having conversations around consent, having conversations around
Speaker: I'm in a space that this feels good for me, but I don't want this line to be crossed or having that clear cut specific boundary and that that allows for the space of safety vulnerability cannot flourish without safety. If you're in that fear and fight or flight mode.
Speaker: There's no lasting work that's being done. There's no lasting healing that's being done. You have to be in a space of safety that involves consent in order for that story to be written and for that really powerful deep work to be done solo or with a partner. Wow, that's amazing and it's true. The work does not
Speaker: just because you get married or you're in a very committed relationship does not mean that consent goes out the window. It needs to be consensual because one, when it feels like a chore and it's like, oh, I just have to do this because this is what they want, that's not consent. You're just doing it because you're supposed to, you can't send me air quotes, supposed to, but then there's no like,
Speaker: I guess the way that I see it is there's no actual connection being made. It's more of a transaction. Like it's just like, oh, you put, you know, this is in there. It's now it's a, it's just a transaction between two people. There was no love. There was no real connection. It was just get the deed done. And the way that, that you say, you know, the consent, and when you do feel safe with your partner and there's that trust, I think
Speaker: It's a lot easier to know where the boundaries are, but also with boundaries, you can be okay with boundaries changing because it's like we said with being curious, right now, wherever you are, this is probably a heck hell no, I'm not doing that. And it's like, oh, and then, you know, a few years down, you're like, hey, you know what, that happened again. I think I'm actually okay with it now.
Speaker: like sometimes a no is a no and sometimes a no is let me just be curious about that but don't push it on me because then it might become a very firm no right but it needs to be consensual and there needs to be respect about the other person sharing their desires rather than expecting the other person
Speaker: to just do what you want them to do. Because what you desire and what they desire, you might have similar, but you might also have very opposites. And without there being the consent or the safety, then there's like, it's like, I don't know, like two magnets trying to come together that are on opposite sides and you're just, it's, it just can't be forced. It needs to be, oh my gosh, am I gonna say it again? Consensual.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. That's so true. And like this, this belief that we have around it. And I think like a lot of this comes up in the understanding too of how these converts work for most people that you are either you have responsive desire or spontaneous desire. Okay. And for those that are spontaneous desire that like they have one single thought and their body is fully erect and ready to go. Right. That is not
Speaker: the same for the other body involved most of the time, right? And that there is this assumption of like, yeah, they also probably have spontaneous desire, but I've never actually asked them. I've never had that conversation of like, are they spontaneous or is it responsive, right?
Speaker: And so what I mean by that is that it takes responding to your body's cues. It takes having the mood set in some context. And all of that happens in that communication with each other. And a key piece in this that I
Speaker: generally recommend to most of my clients is that those conversations don't happen in the moment. They don't happen in the bedroom. Those conversations around boundaries, consent, and safety happen elsewhere.
Speaker: and they happen without the intent of an outcome, all right? That it is literally creating space for communication and understanding of like, okay, so your body experiences responsive desire. Tell me more about that, right? That curiosity in that conversation and also laying out those boundaries of you're saying no to this specific act right now. I will respect that. If it's something that you would be curious about in the future, we can revisit that conversation then.
Speaker: or I'm okay with this kind of touch right now, but we don't cross this line right and having those really clear conversations and we are taught that I mean I went to marriage counseling prior to being married to my husband and those were not conversations that I was taught how to have right like
Speaker: I don't, maybe, maybe some stories are different here, but those can be really uncomfortable. And so sometimes having an outside source, having an outside facilitator in those conversations can be helpful of how do you talk about intimacy? If you've been taught that it's taboo and wrong and icky and naughty, right? How do you say to your partner, this is what I'd like you to do to me.
Speaker: That can be really uncomfortable, right? And so having an outlet for those conversations and that outlet isn't happening with the intent of an outcome then, right? That it's just a space to converse and a space to learn healthy communication because I think that
Speaker: And I'm sure Rachel has talked a lot about this as well from the relationship standpoint, that healthy communication drives all those forms of intimacy, that you have to have that basis of communication to be in an emotional, intimate space with a partner.
Speaker: Now that's very, very true because being in a committed relationship or even testing the waters and dating, like there needs to be communication. Even if you're single and you're going out and you're dating, what do you desire to do on your dates? Where's the boundary? And you need to consent to whatever is going to happen. I mean, I remember, not that I dated a lot, but
Speaker: Having a plan in place that you think about what outcomes could possibly happen, what will I do if this and this and this happens? How will I handle this? Because your unconscious mind, when you have these conversations, even if it's just with yourself, it's going to remember. So when it's presented,
Speaker: your unconscious mind is going to go to your subconscious and say, hey, send this to the conscious mind. This is what we've already decided on. And it works the same way, even if you're in a very seasoned relationship and you've been with each other, what feels like eons, you may have really great communication or maybe you're like, we've been married for 40 years and we still don't know how to talk.
Speaker: There's never a time that is too late to start having conversation. I mean, I hate the phrase, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah, you can. The difference is the dog has to want to learn the trick.
Speaker: like you have to want to evolve and it's just like being a stick in the mud. Well you can pull the stick out of the mud, you can wet the mud again so it's not dry and you can pull the stick out easily. That might not be the best you know story for this type of talk but but you know like it's the same type of the same concept like there's never a time that is too late
Speaker: to start having conversations, to start changing your story, even if it's been years and you think it's too late, knowing the difference and being able to redefine, to reevaluate and rewire what is happening for you. So you have the desired outcome in life that you deserve and that you desire and be empowered to do that. I mean,
Speaker: Yeah, like, I don't even know. Yeah, I want to say this again. I said it at the beginning. Pleasure is your birthright. You are born with the ability to feel pleasure. It does not matter if you are 50 years old right now and you are just hearing that for the first time and you're like, oh, there's some work to do there.
Speaker: Or you are 18 and you're like, yeah, let's I don't know. I assume people are still using dating apps. But I don't know. I met my husband on Tinder. So like I feel like a really old person now because Tinder isn't even cool anymore. I know that much. But like,
Speaker: whether you are in the world of dating apps, right? Whatever space you're in, that you are allowed that same experience right then, right now, okay? And that this permission that we have to give ourselves. And I know that I said that that first step was education. That first step was like learning it. I think if we take that to a step smaller, it's permission. It's giving yourself permission to accept pleasure.
Speaker: to acknowledge pleasure, to allow yourself to feel pleasure. And that whole adding that language to your vocabulary that even if it is, when I make my cup of coffee in the morning that I say, this is really pleasurable.
Speaker: If that is the simple first step right there, that it is this awareness that you are allowed to experience that, and that it doesn't make you this super sexual, hyper sexual being, that you are allowed to advocate for your own pleasure. And it doesn't matter when that story starts, it doesn't matter when that journey starts, that this is a journey that you're allowed to embark on in whatever way that looks like.
Speaker: Yes, preach. It's so true. And I love this entire conversation. I could go on for days, which is why we're having Liz come back to talk about having a sex -positive home because you cannot have a sex -positive home unless you have given yourself permission to change your own story because kids know when you're lying.
Speaker: Like they know when you don't believe something you're saying they they will even use your own things against you for crying out loud and you're like don't do that.
Speaker: Like, they are just these sponges that take everything in, and somehow we will still screw them up, really, no matter what. Like, I said to my husband, honey, we're not saving for college, we're saving for therapy, because no matter how well we think we're doing, we're probably still gonna screw them up. So they need therapy. They're gonna need it at some point in time. And this entire conversation has been
Speaker: so enlightening for me and I guarantee it will be enlightening for everyone that's gonna be listening because there is such a power that comes from allowing yourself permission to understand you and to realize and to rewrite that it's not selfish to know yourself.
Speaker: Because I mean, it's, I hear it all the time, but it's like being on a plane, I've only ever flown once in my life and I'll probably never, I really never wanna do it again. But on the plane, they talk about, you know, when the things come down and the plane's gonna go down, you have that thing that you breathe into, I don't know, it's called the mask. And they say that your first step is, is you have to put your own on before you can help anybody else. Otherwise, you could pass out,
Speaker: And then what help will you be if you're dead and then you saved everybody else. Good job. Way to go. No, like you have to fill your own cup. You have to let your light shine. You have, you have the opportunities to allow yourself grace and the more that you practice.
Speaker: talking to yourself out loud and saying, I find pleasure in doing this. This makes me feel good. And focusing on ways to feel good and knowing ways that don't make you feel good and understanding the difference between the two because it's not just, that's not, what am I saying? That's learned. Like you have to teach yourself to do that.
Speaker: And you can't teach your kids to do that, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a mom, whether you're an aunt, whether you're
Speaker: a grandma, whether, you know, whatever it may be, if you're not doing it for yourself, because like I said, kids just know when you're lying or you don't believe what you're saying, or if you're not confident in what you're saying and they're like, well, she doesn't really believe it because she's kind of unsure. So I don't know about that. And there's a difference when you're empowered that it overflows into every other aspect.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so true. It truly does spread out in that conversation and having that sense of I've been doing this work for years now, right? Whether that was in the field of social work or in the work that I'm doing with my clients right now. And there are still so many spaces that I'm learning in my own story, right? We will never be at that finish line. We'll never be at that point of
Speaker: fully empowered and accepting of our pleasure right like it is a journey it is a journey and a process to get there but that doing that work myself allows for those conversations to sound different in my home, and that statement that you said at the beginning of you're doing the best with what knowledge you have right now.
Speaker: This is what I'm doing to change that cycle of generational trauma in my home that these conversations sound different and that my girls are able to grow up in a space that they know that they're the boss of their body and nobody gets to touch them without consent and that they get to show up in a world and a space where their emotions are valid and they're allowed to speak their truth, whatever that is, and that them being a being that enjoys pleasure isn't self
Speaker: and all of this narrative that they get to rewrite themselves, right? And that story wouldn't have happened in my home if I hadn't done that work myself. And I empower each person to have that space of what story do I need to rewrite? What story do I need to shift in order to create a healthier space in my home? Whether it is just your friends or your peers coming over,
Speaker: or children, babies that you're raising in your home. And that that story, again, has the power to serve them well or send them to therapy.
Speaker: understanding that distinction there and what tools you're giving them to manage that, what opportunities you're giving them to write their own story around that, right? Our children will never be exact replicas of who we are, right? They're their own beings.
Speaker: that it is like butting heads, sometimes total opposites, but that they are in our space to learn tools, to learn opportunities of how to perceive the world and how to work in the world, right? And this is a conversation that is normally seen as like, it doesn't really matter. What change is this gonna make? What difference is this gonna make? But you also see when you show up with this mentality of being sex positive,
Speaker: how that changes every conversation that you come in contact with. And that that starts with your story, your home, you creating that space for yourself to then spread that beyond. Oh my goodness. Yes. I love it. Liz, like, wow. Just so
Speaker: much empowerment like I received so much in this and I appreciate you taking time to sit with me and to have this conversation and because I can feel your excitement and your passion like you know she said that we were only on zoom but like
Speaker: I can feel you through Zoom when you're a million, not a million miles, but you're so many miles away from me. And it's just, it's been such a pleasure. So where can people find you? Where can they connect with you? How can they connect with you? Let's get them into the know of Liz and empower the talk.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, so you can find me on pretty much any platform, so whatever space you're in, I'm probably there trying to be cool, okay? So you can find me on TikTok even. No promises that you will enjoy what you watch. It may or may not bring pleasure, but I am learning to try to be young again, okay?
Speaker: Normally you can reach out to me, Facebook, Instagram, Liz Martin on Instagram. It's Liz underscore empower the talk. You can visit me on my website at empower the talk .com. Whatever way is easiest for you to connect with me. It's all out there. Liz, thank you so much for being on the sex and motherhood podcast. I'm so excited to even schedule the next time we talk where we're going to talk about so many other things, but this has been so enlightening and
Speaker: I just I thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I clearly do enjoy talking about this. It is not by accident that I talk about sex and pleasure all the time because it gets me in all the emotion and all the feels. So thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: You just finished another episode of the Sex and Motherhood podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Feeling inspired? Go ahead, rate and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Make sure to head over to the show notes for all the links and info on our amazing guests this week. I want to hear your biggest takeaway sister friend, so I invite you to skip on over to Instagram and leave a comment sharing your favorite part at Sex and Motherhood. And be sure to share with your sister friends too. Meet you here next week.
