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Why Teenagers Take Sides in Divorce: Understanding Parental Alienation
4 Playsin 6 hours
Is your high-conflict divorce taking a toll on your relationship with your child? It is heartbreaking for any parent of a teen to feel like they are being pushed out of their child's life, especially when it feels like the other parent is pulling the strings. In this episode of The Positively Healthy Mom, host Laura Olinger—a dedicated teen and parent well-being coach—interviews groundbreaking expert Ginger Gentile to uncover the painful reality of child estrangement and how to find a path back to connection.
Laura knows that the teen years are already a whirlwind of identity seeking and social pressure. When a difficult split adds emotional triangulation to the mix, the results can be devastating. She sits down with Ginger to provide parents with a toolkit for navigating these "resist and refuse" dynamics and breaking the cycle of family conflict.
In this episode of The Positively Healthy Mom, we discuss:
- The Alienation Spectrum: Identifying parental alienation, emotional triangulation, and the subtle "micro-actions" that cause a teen to pull away.
- The Victim Trap: How the "spiral of instability" can make a rejected parent look "unstable" in the eyes of the court and professionals.
- The "Unbothered" Strategy: Why processing your pain in private and staying calm in public is the most effective way to protect your parental rights.
- Why Teenagers Take Sides: The specific reasons older children are often easier to alienate, including the "reward" of a lack of rules or the material item they’ve been wanting.
Common Questions About High-Conflict Divorce & Alienation
Why do teenagers take sides in divorce? Teenagers often take sides due to a combination of social pressure and a search for autonomy. In high-conflict situations, a teen may align with one parent to simplify a complex emotional environment or because they receive "rewards," such as fewer boundaries or more freedom.
What are the signs of parental alienation? Parental alienation often manifests through "micro-actions" rather than one single event. Signs include a teen calling a parent by their first name instead of "Mom" or "Dad," a parent hiding gifts or letters from the other side, or one parent constantly pointing out the other’s flaws to the teen.
How can I stop my teenager from pulling away after a divorce? To stop a teen from pulling away, a parent must pivot from a "fix-it" or "victim" mindset to an "unbothered" approach. This involves regulating your own emotional pain response so that you remain a calm, safe harbor for your child.
About Our Guest Ginger Gentile
Ginger Gentile is a groundbreaking expert and the director of the documentary Erasing Family. Her mission is to provide proven strategies and compassionate guidance to help parents heal and reconnect with their children.
Learn more about about Ginger Gentile at: https://reversingparentalalienation.com
Connect with Ginger on Instagram @erasingfamily
Watch Ginger on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/@erasingfamily
Connect with Laura:
- Free Webinar: Get Through May Without Losing Your Joy, Your Mind, Or Yourself
- Instagram: @positivelyhealthycoaching
- Rate This Podcast!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
So kids will, kids want to avoid conflict and they want to avoid avoid conflict so much that if they see by not seeing another parent or seeing them less, they will have less conflict.
00:00:13
Speaker
They will do that. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Positively Healthy Mom. I'm your host, Laura Olinger, teen and parent wellbeing coach and founder of Positively Healthy Coaching. I'm very excited to introduce you to my guest today, Jenjir Gentile. Jenjir is a groundbreaking expert in, she's the director of Erasing Family, which is a documentary and their mission is simple yet powerful. to give you the proven strategies, compassionate guidance, and unwavering support that you need to heal and reconnect with for child.
Understanding Parental Alienation
00:00:48
Speaker
So Ginger, to tell us what that means. What is this all about?
00:00:53
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Laura, for having me on. So you know, as a parenting coach, when parents get divorced, the vast majority of moms and dads eventually learn to get along.
00:01:05
Speaker
Obviously, there's a reason why they got divorced. If things were great, you wouldn't get divorced. But usually after a few months or a year, they're able to make some agreements, maybe even be in the same room with each other. Hopefully, maybe even celebrate a holiday together.
00:01:19
Speaker
But about 10 to 20% of the divorces you'll find get worse over time. I know because my parents had a horrible divorce when I was 13. But then, and I was happy when they got divorced. because like, finally, ha I'll have some peace.
00:01:33
Speaker
And it got worse, not better over time. And they actually ended up fighting with each other for about 15, 20 years with the kids in the middle. There's various degrees of this.
00:01:45
Speaker
We can call this a high conflict divorce. But if one parent gains the upper hand with a child and convinces that child that the other parent is bad for them or prevents them from seeing the other parent, this can become something that we commonly and popularly refer to as parental alienation. That's when a child is turned against the other parent.
00:02:08
Speaker
It's a fancy term, but we all know of kids who had a good relationship with a mom or a dad, and then after the divorce, it seems to really go off the rails. And also if the kid gets older, sometimes this is referred to as estrangement.
00:02:22
Speaker
In the court system, it's referred to as sometimes resist and refuse when a child resists or refuses to go to a visit. um It could also be called emotional
Complications in Alienation Cases
00:02:32
Speaker
triangulation. A lot of fancy terms for an interference in the natural order, which is a child loves and respects a healthy parent.
00:02:43
Speaker
Now, what I've seen in my work and as the director of ah of the Erasing Family documentary, which your listeners can find on YouTube and watch for free, is there's a lot of shades of gray here.
00:02:57
Speaker
So the big issue that we have found is that parents who consider themselves alienated or estranged or blocked see themselves as a victim. It's completely possible that they are a victim.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. There's often things that they're doing without knowing that's making it worse. Now... In an extreme example, you have two parents who are fighting so much against each other and one parent wins.
00:03:25
Speaker
So they're both trying to alienate the other parent and one's better at it. Yeah. um And then we'll see cases where there's one parent who may be had no history of this, is very easygoing, is very loving, and they get sucked into this vortex with another parent who then uses the kids as a way to punish the other parent.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah. um So we see this often in cases of domestic violence. I work with a lot of moms who are victims of domestic violence, and I'm using you know domestic violence could also mean threats, emotional violence.
00:03:59
Speaker
And then when this ends, it's a way for the abuser to maintain control. So it becomes domestic abuse by proxy. But in all of these cases, whether a person is, you know, 100% victim or 5% a victim, there are things that they are doing that makes the situation worse.
00:04:17
Speaker
This could be a trauma response from their childhood, or it could be a trauma response from not seeing their kids. But I'm going to give you and your listeners a very clear example. Okay. Your mom, imagine that you couldn't see your kids for six months. That would be awful.
00:04:31
Speaker
How do you think you' you would show up in court? Oh, I would be, yeah, very emotional, very, would be pleading. would be like, I need to see my kids. This isn't fair. Right. Like what's happening? This isn't right. Kind of the injustice of it.
00:04:45
Speaker
Right. Very common. And then what can happen is The judge will say, well, you're emotionally unstable. a And the abuser, the alienator, will come in very calm, very cool with evidence, saying, well, i want them to see their mom. It's just she's very unstable at times. i think she might drink. And then you go, I don't drink.
00:05:07
Speaker
How dare you accuse me of drinking? I haven't had a drink in two years. And then the judge says, well, let's order some alcohol blood test to see what's going on here.
Strategies for Parents in High Conflict Situations
00:05:15
Speaker
and it kind of But then also what happens that we found is the professionals who will be assigned to this case won't want to help you because they see you as unstable. You're pleading. You become the annoying client.
00:05:29
Speaker
Your friends think, well, maybe there's something she did wrong. Yeah. The school system might find it easier. So it just begins to spiral out of control. Then you get more and more desperate. You've been telling these stories.
00:05:41
Speaker
And then you're like, it's a movie. And nobody wants to get involved with the movie. Yeah. So this is what makes you look crazy, even though weren't initially crazy. but You're going down this spiral that it turns you into someone that you're not or you weren't.
00:05:56
Speaker
Right, exactly. And what's sad and tragic is that we have a court system and also a system with a lot of professionals involved to try to seek who's at fault, who's to blame.
00:06:07
Speaker
And what we have found ah with with my team at Reversing Parental Alienation is that when we say it's about responsibility, how can we show up better How can you show up as the parent your kids need, as the co-parent, even a horrible abusive narcissist can deal with, that the professionals in the case want to interact with? Things can begin to change.
00:06:28
Speaker
And they can begin to change quickly because you're removing a stimulus. So for example, if someone's abusive and they want to see you suffer, and I work with a lot of moms who I say, you need to you know, we need to get you to a point where you just accept that this is what's going on and you at least outwardly don't seem so concerned. Of course you're concerned.
00:06:48
Speaker
But if you go, huh? Or if the kids say, I hate you, mom. You go, ah yeah. Sometimes teenagers hate their mom. You know, yeah, it's common. Things begin to calm down because there's not this stimulus.
00:07:00
Speaker
Now, what a lot of parents going through this forget is that the child is being alienated or kept from you, they're being raised by a person who's doing that, and they might take on some of these traits.
00:07:11
Speaker
So then you as the parent who's being kept from your children, need the skill set and the emotional resilience to deal with a child who who will come back and maybe be very upset, angry. They might be lying.
00:07:24
Speaker
They might steal. i don't want to say, so I never like to paint a horrible picture, but this is what can happen. I think a lot of parents have the fantasy that if they can just get their kids, everything will be fine.
00:07:36
Speaker
And it they have to rebuild a relationship from a different starting point than where they were at in the beginning. a So, When you're helping a mom rebuild these skills or build these skills, I guess, for the first time, yeah what is the method or strategy that you're using to deal with, I guess, the pain? Maybe that's what that resilience is because there's nothing to me more unnatural than a mom being kept from her children. Like that just for me defies all...
00:08:09
Speaker
everything this universe is about, right? Like that and connection, that's loving connection. That's kind of like, they're in our room, they come out, that's, we, we rate, they came out of our bodies, right? And so it's like, I guess that's what you're working on. Like, how do you address that pain and that raw feeling?
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question, Laura. So what this is not is pretending like everything's okay when it isn't. Okay. So a lot of times with a mom will be, okay let's admit that this is awful and unfair and adjust.
00:08:39
Speaker
Give yourself time and space to feel those feelings and honor those feelings. Sometimes with a client, I'll even say, let's schedule time. And it might be once a week or even once a day to feel that and to cry.
00:08:51
Speaker
and you put an alarm on and then you have to put it in a box. Okay. And when you're able to put it in that box, that's when we get into strategy mode. So this isn't saying I'm okay with not seeing my kids.
00:09:05
Speaker
It's being calm enough In an interaction where you where they're not pushing your buttons because what they're trying to do is to say something or do something that will drive you crazy. They record that and now that becomes evidence to the judge, but it could also be evidence to the children, right? um i'm I'm working with a mom now who had a restraining order placed against her, which is very common.
00:09:34
Speaker
um She's now able to see her kids. She's made great progress. But basically, five years ago, she cried in front of the kids. And she cried in front of a police officer.
00:09:46
Speaker
That's been used against her now for five years. Because this was during COVID. Oh, wow. So every time, it's like, let's talk about what happened five years ago with this crying incident. And this just keeps getting used against her. And what's important here is acknowledge, you know what? You're right. I shouldn't have cried.
00:10:05
Speaker
I'm now working on being more emotionally stable. that hurt What you don't want to do is to say, well, everybody cries. It's not a big deal. Or, well, I was crying because he was trying to take the kids away from me.
00:10:18
Speaker
So when we begin to argue, and this is a great principle for your listeners, if there's one takeaway, the more you argue with the facts, even when you're right, the more guilty you seem.
00:10:29
Speaker
and And the more you just say, okay, that's interesting. Thanks for sharing. Or that must be really tough. I acknowledge that. Or even saying I have a different memory, but that's not what's important here. What's important is my crying was very upsetting to the kids five years ago.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I am now in a program. I'm getting coaching. I'm doing therapy. So I'm emotionally stable. and And you can see that I haven't cried and from the kids in five years. That's a very different answer than, of course I cried. It was the middle of COVID. You sent the cops to my door. And um and you kept the kids for me from five years. So we're discussing me crying.
00:11:06
Speaker
And these little things... can be so taken against the the parent by the professionals, by
Challenges and Advice for Teenage Alienation
00:11:16
Speaker
the other parent. They can really be blown out of proportion. So it's very important to always maintain an an emotional regulation in public, in front of other people.
00:11:25
Speaker
What you do in private, what you feel in private. um I've had ah clients write novels, memoirs, stand-up comedy routines, songs, artwork about this to express the pain. It is painful,
00:11:37
Speaker
But we need to get you to a spot where you are unbothered by their attempts to get you to show that pain. Because that's what they're trying to do. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:48
Speaker
Could you give our listeners some examples of what it looks like to have really small, almost I want to call it like micro actions of parental alienation. And like I have one that comes to mind. i as I was educating myself about this topic several years ago, i learned like if your child receives a gift from the other parent and they bring it to your house, obviously they they're it theres right it's right? in the room. And I've heard examples of like people taking that gift or hiding that gift because it's so up for that parent to have, and it it could be something silly, right? Like, or picture frame of the other parent in that child's room, right?
00:12:26
Speaker
And so can you kind of speak into that? Because I think sometimes pen when we, I don't know what I think the word parental alienation, that is like, shut the door, complete, complete no contact, which is what we talk about in the documentary. But like, what are those little micro actions that kind of start to turn the child's thoughts and feelings against that parent?
00:12:44
Speaker
right That's a great question. So if we have a list of alienating behaviors, I'm going to guess that most parents going through a divorce have done one at some time. And that does not mean that you are alienating.
00:12:56
Speaker
a When it becomes a pattern... And when the goal becomes, at least you know subconsciously the goal is to destroy the relationship or to keep the child close or to protect the child when there's no real fear, um this can be very damaging when it's a pattern.
00:13:16
Speaker
So first of all, for your listeners, if at one point you know the child brought home a gift and they said, ah the tennis shoes are the wrong size. okay, yeah, maybe we could work on that. That's not alienating. But if every gift that's brought home is hidden, taken away, or said, oh, you know, what a stupid gift.
00:13:34
Speaker
Or, well, at least he tried, but he obviously doesn't know how to give good gifts. So it can be the most subtle would be like, you don't have to go if you don't want to. a um If you don't go, oh, um instead of going to see your dad, um i brought tickets to this fun event.
00:13:56
Speaker
calling the other parent by their first name, always pointing out their faults. Now the child is half of both parents. Right. So this also is damaging to the child. And part of the acceptance okay, I chose to have a child with this person. And this is one of the exercises I do with clients often when they when they're really upset with the other parent is to energetically, you know, kind of declare, so not to the other person, not to their kids,
00:14:21
Speaker
you have the right parent. um And I do it all over again to have you. And some parents like, I don't want to say that. I'm like, I get that. But otherwise you're saying to the kid, you're a mistake.
00:14:32
Speaker
And that's what your energy is giving. So kids will, kids want to avoid conflict. Yeah. And they want to avoid avoid conflict so much that if they see by not seeing another parent or seeing them less, they will have less conflict.
00:14:47
Speaker
They will do that. The other thing to keep in mind is that teenagers are much easier to alienate than little kids. Really? Yeah. Okay. Tell us about that. Because a little kid, let's say the the mom creates this whole story to the kid and says, dad is bad. and they'll The five or six year old will parrot that.
00:15:09
Speaker
And then if someone says, what do you like to do with your dad? Like, oh, I love playing baseball with my dad. They can't keep a narrative. a Now, a teenager, if you tell a 16-year-old, if you don't see your mom, I'll buy you a Tesla.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah. And the the teenager goes, huh, Tesla. Yeah. So all I have to do is is say mom's awful. I don't want to see her. Yeah. And I get you a Tesla. Huh. Or at my house, there's no rules.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. I've seen that. Yeah. At my house, there's no rules. So of course, we're not going to want see the other parent who has rules. Right. Right? Yeah. um and And then that parent is like, well every time I discipline them, they're like why I can do whatever I want at dad's house. So what a healthy parenting looks like at this situation is helping the child to adjust to know what they're feeling is normal And then if it's not a safety concern, giving them skills or strategies to maintain the relationship as much as possible.
00:16:11
Speaker
Now, what what everybody knows, including the courts, including lawyers, is that once a child is in their mid to late teens, they really can't be forced. They can't.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah. So it's it's keeping that door open. and just And even if it's like, well, your dad is who he is. what can we learn from this?
00:16:33
Speaker
What can we do to adjust this? How can you, is there some activity you can do? Right? That's very, so we try to be as neutral as possible and let the kids find their own way.
00:16:44
Speaker
Now, one thing that I've seen with the moms I work with, because I work with mom and dads, but mainly moms. And that's just, i don't know. they I tend to attract more moms for some reason. um Because probably more dads suffer from this or it's about the same, but most of my clients are moms.
00:17:01
Speaker
pause in this episode to tell you on April 30th at noon central time, I'm hosting a free webinar for moms called get through May without losing your joy, your mind or yourself.
00:17:13
Speaker
And if that title just hit you somewhere, go save your spot right now at positively healthy coaching.com. If you can't make it live, no worries, sign up anyway in advance and I'll send you the recording.
00:17:27
Speaker
When women are married and in the mom role, they will often become like the CEO of the household and they're organizing every schedule and they're doing all the appointments. So one way that if they're even if they're alienated, that they can still try to get involved.
00:17:43
Speaker
So accepting that the child's relationship with the other parent is their relationship. its ah It prevents disappointment. And when you have a lot of conflict in in between two parents who have divorced, the best thing for the child is to interact less.
00:18:00
Speaker
a Okay. For example, dad drives the kids to school and they're always late. Okay. Let the school and the truancy officer deal with it. I had a mom, she's being alienated from her kids, one one of her kids.
00:18:14
Speaker
The kid has tons of truancy problems. And then she called up the school and was and and got them like removed to help her son. and it's like, that's sweet, I understand this, but... The dad needs to face the consequences. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
Right, right. And also, if you go back to court, truancy is considered a big issue. So but the less we get involved, because then also what can happen is, hey, you're texting your ex. Hey, you know, make sure you get you leave five minutes early because there's snow on the road. Right.
00:18:47
Speaker
And then the reaction moms and dads will do this. We'll be like, oh, God, this is they're not going to say this. What a nag.
00:18:59
Speaker
I'm going to block the person more. So it's about relaxing and just being like, okay, it is what it is. So the more it's like, it is what it is. This is what we got. This what we're working with. The better it is for the children to be able to go back and forth and develop their own relationships and their own ah observations over time.
00:19:17
Speaker
er And the more, because what I see as a pattern is when people make these small issues, very big issues, then there's just there's just constant fighting and turmoil. And the children always feel like they're they're in a war zone. they're always They can never be safe.
Breaking Patterns and Seeking Help
00:19:33
Speaker
Now, this is important for the moms listening who are being alienated. What this also means if there's ah all this ongoing conflict, the kids never can come back. and Why don't they switch slides with and an ongoing war? So we have to be very careful about what is truly important to focus on and to raise and complain about and what we unfortunately have to let go. Yeah.
00:19:54
Speaker
Man, this has been really powerful. I usually talk a lot more during podcasts, but I just wanted to give you really the voice here because what you're doing, yeah the work that you're doing is it's so important. And so what is, you know, with the men and no two we have left, like what is the last kind of most important bit you can share for the moms today?
00:20:14
Speaker
95% of the time when I work with somebody, this has been going on in their family for generations. Sometimes in different ways. So it could be that there's a history of abandonment in the family. it could be this pattern. Sometimes people will say, oh yeah, this happened with my uncle. This happened with my mom, my grandma, my great grandma. And so it's little more vague.
00:20:34
Speaker
If you can change the dynamic, you're giving a gift to your children, which is that they won't repeat this pattern. but We know from statistics that children who are alienated have a 50% chance of being alienated themselves or becoming an alienator.
00:20:50
Speaker
That makes so much sense. Yeah. Because that's what they grew up with. That's what they think is normal. And I've even seen some cases where people will begin to alienate. When the child turns five and her dad was alienated when she turned five. So she's doing the same thing subconsciously, right? This is not always a conscious campaign. Sometimes people just begin to repeat these patterns.
00:21:13
Speaker
So if you can stop this pattern, you are giving your children a beautiful gift. Yeah. And part of that is if you can't, if you're able to show up in a calm way, your children will also learn how to calmly respond to the other parent and,
00:21:29
Speaker
And also, unfortunately, people with these personality traits, which is partly we can call narcissism or high conflict behavior, they're everywhere. So they they're probably going to run into them again. And we don't want them marrying someone like this. So the more that we can create a calm thing, it is what it is. This is how we can deal with this person. We're not going to, I always say, they have an express train to crazy town. You don't have to get on the train.
00:21:52
Speaker
The train can go by itself. And then at one moment, the kids will say, huh, I want to get off the train. But if we try to pull them off the train, right, it's it actually makes more resistance.
00:22:04
Speaker
So the more that you can show up healed and calm, the more your children will be attracted to you. Not because you're saying the truth, but not because you are speaking truth to power or telling your side of the story.
00:22:18
Speaker
But when they see that you're calm, loving, accepting, they are drawn back to that. yeah It does take work. it's It can be hard work, but it's rewarding and it's not impossible.
00:22:30
Speaker
There is hope. ah So powerful. i can That's just amazing. Thank you. I already know people that I am going to slightly you send you your way because I i know um several situations like this. So how can people find you? So the easiest way for people to get in touch with us if they want help on their alienation case, we work with moms and dads who are in the middle of divorce process. I've worked with parents who haven't filed for divorce yet.
00:22:58
Speaker
um And we also, our longest success case was a mom who was 12 years no contact with her daughter. Her daughter's in her early 30s. No outweigh to contact her daughter and they got back together.
00:23:08
Speaker
So we work on both Yeah. And the best way to contact us is to go to reversing parental alienation.com. And
Self-care and Professional Boundaries
00:23:19
Speaker
there we have a form where people can take a free assessment to see how we can help them.
00:23:23
Speaker
They'll also be placed on our email list. And we often hold free and affordable events for people to learn about our methodology. And they can find us on social media under the tag for our film, Erasing Family. So if they go to YouTube, Instagram, or Facebook. We're on a racing family and they can also watch the film for free on YouTube. Ginger, thank you so much for your time. This was it amazing. And I am just really wanting to send you kind of like some support and love because I, I, I, I'm sure you see a lot of stuff. And so, um, I bet your were self-care is super important and getting support because yeah, it's like, We're human, right? And sometimes in painful situations can be hard. We have to have those, you know, boundaries, that emotional kind of cutaway.
00:24:10
Speaker
That'll be the last question. Do you have any tips for how you kind of step back into your own world so that you're not like living in this all the time? Sure. it's It's a great question. And I tend to be one of those people who overworks too much.
00:24:25
Speaker
So what I will say is if anyone contacts me, ah I don't coach your email or text message. so And I also believe that giving advice or tips um does not replace having a system and support. yeah So someone contacts me after feel listening to this podcast and says, oh, this happened with my kid, i i will say, I'm so sorry for you.
00:24:46
Speaker
You can join us in this way, but I'm not going to answer that over email because also I don't have the full situation. Right. I could give really bad advice. And I've heard stories with other coaches who have gotten people arrested because they didn't know there was a restraining order in the background. Right. So you don't want to do that. So that's part of the way too. And then I would say ah going out into nature yeah as much as possible.
00:25:08
Speaker
And then, and this is, I think the hardest one as a coach, we can walk the the walk with people. We can go on the journey with them, but ultimately it's up to them. We're not their ambulance. yeah We can't rescue people. What we can do is we can show them a possible path forward.
00:25:24
Speaker
They can choose to take that path.
Episode Conclusion
00:25:26
Speaker
And there'll always be clients who I work with who don't want to take that path. And then we have to say, you know, many blessings and I hope it works out, but we can't drag them down the path that we think they should go down. Mm-hmm.
00:25:38
Speaker
That's a a very exact same philosophy I have. I say we can open the door. We can show them the door. We can show them the door frame and show them the doorway, but they have to be the one that stepped through that. So, yeah um yes, taking that action on their own. Well, um Ginger, thank you again. And I so appreciate appreciate your time. I think. Thank you so much for having me on. And I hope that anyone's listening in this who's suffering from this reunites and heals soon.
00:26:00
Speaker
Beautiful.
00:26:04
Speaker
When you get a chance, please go to the show notes and click on the link ratethispodcast.com slash tphmom to give my podcast a rating and review.
00:26:15
Speaker
And if this episode resonates with you, be sure to share it with your mom friends who are going through the same things. Be sure to tune in for next week's conversation. Until then, keep up the good work.