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Reclaiming Power: Meghan Murphy on Feminism, Casual Sex, and the Cost of "Sexual Liberation
46 Plays1 year ago
Savannah and Diana are joined by with journalist and feminist Meghan Murphy to dive into the complexities of modern feminism, and explore why the cultural push for "sexual liberation" through casual sex may actually be disempowering women.
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Transcript
Introduction to Megan Murphy and Her Feminist Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the Female Dating Strategy podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:06
Speaker
I am your guest host now, Savannah.
00:00:09
Speaker
And I'm Diana.
00:00:11
Speaker
And we are super, super, super excited to be joined by this extremely special guest who I've wanted on the podcast for a very, very long time.
00:00:19
Speaker
She is a writer, an author, and the founder of the Feminist Current website, the lovely Megan Murphy.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hi, Megan.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi, Megan.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hi, I'm so happy to be here.
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm such a fan of the podcast.
00:00:34
Speaker
I feel like you guys say things that no one else says, and it's always thrilling to hear.
00:00:39
Speaker
So I'm really glad to be here.
00:00:41
Speaker
Thank you.
00:00:42
Speaker
We are so, so glad to have you.
00:00:43
Speaker
And, you know, Megan has done some amazing work for women and across feminism as well.
00:00:49
Speaker
And what I've really, really liked is almost your feminist journey as well, which has been quite public.
00:00:55
Speaker
So I guess before we get into the main episode, do you mind just telling us a bit more about yourself and I suppose your journey with feminism?
00:01:04
Speaker
Because I think that will segue quite nicely into the topic that we're going to discuss today.
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember.
00:01:16
Speaker
Like, I remember being a little kid, you know, being 10 years old in elementary school and up in arms about sexism and storming off to the principal's office to complain about it.
00:01:30
Speaker
And, you know, it's something, my mother was a feminist, so I feel like I always noticed that
00:01:36
Speaker
social dynamics between boys and girls.
00:01:39
Speaker
And as I advanced and became a young woman,
00:01:45
Speaker
You know, I came of age during really almost peak third wave feminism, I suppose, in the late 90s.
00:01:53
Speaker
And so when I started having sex, you know, it was the rise of hookup culture.
00:02:00
Speaker
And, you know, we learned as young women during that time, and I think now as well, maybe even more so now, that we could have sex just like boys.
Critique of Third-Wave Feminism and Hookup Culture
00:02:13
Speaker
And, you know, that it was empowering to be promiscuous, that, you know, it was sort of good to push away your feelings and not get attached.
00:02:23
Speaker
You know, so I think I sort of attempted that for a little while.
00:02:26
Speaker
Like I thought, those guys are players.
00:02:28
Speaker
I can be like that.
00:02:29
Speaker
I can be a player.
00:02:30
Speaker
But, you know, it didn't work.
00:02:33
Speaker
Like, you know, I was always getting attached and I was always getting hurt feelings and I was always being disrespected.
00:02:39
Speaker
And I discovered radical feminism around then.
00:02:43
Speaker
It was also during that time that we were hearing about
00:02:48
Speaker
things like feminist pornography and the idea that so-called sex workers, this is not a term that I use, you know, making empowered choices.
00:02:58
Speaker
And that actually pornography was for women too.
00:03:00
Speaker
And if you were a really open-minded sexual person,
00:03:04
Speaker
liberated woman, you would enjoy pornography and, you know, prostitution was kind of like a cool edgy thing to do.
00:03:13
Speaker
And none of it sat right for me ever.
00:03:15
Speaker
I tried a bit, you know, like I would go to the strip club with my friends, female and male friends, actually.
00:03:23
Speaker
I had female friends who had, you know, their birthday party at a strip club and I just felt so disgusting.
00:03:29
Speaker
Is that a thing?
00:03:31
Speaker
This was, you know, 1999 or 1998, you know, so I don't know if it's still a thing.
00:03:38
Speaker
But, you know, women do go to strip clubs now and they seem to or they claim to enjoy it.
00:03:43
Speaker
And every time I was at a strip club, I just was like, this is the most depressing place in the world.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I always just felt so gross about it.
00:03:51
Speaker
And same thing with pornography.
00:03:53
Speaker
Like I remember my first boyfriend who I was living with, I found pornography on the computer and I was so upset and so like nauseated, but I couldn't really articulate why.
00:04:07
Speaker
And to be honest, I don't think women really have to articulate why.
00:04:10
Speaker
I think that having an innate reaction to that kind of thing is good enough and natural.
00:04:16
Speaker
But I did also at that time discover radical feminism.
00:04:19
Speaker
I discovered Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon and Sheila Jeffries.
00:04:24
Speaker
And, you know, and I read Ariel Levy's Female Chauvinist Pigs.
00:04:29
Speaker
And I was like, oh, OK, like, I'm not crazy.
00:04:33
Speaker
Like, my reaction to all of this makes sense.
00:04:36
Speaker
There's a reason why.
00:04:37
Speaker
And actually, this was wrong.
00:04:39
Speaker
And from there, I became me.
00:04:45
Speaker
You know, I did a degree, I did a BA and a master's degree actually in women's studies, although while I was completing the degree, the department changed its name to gender sexuality in women's studies.
00:04:55
Speaker
And I was always like the only one in the class who thought that prostitution was exploitative and not good for women.
00:05:03
Speaker
And that thought that the idea of feminist pornography was ridiculous.
00:05:09
Speaker
I completely feel your pain there because like gender slash like feminism classes at uni are just such a sorry state of affairs.
00:05:16
Speaker
I remember when I was at uni, the chair of the feminist society was a man.
00:05:24
Speaker
I was like, there were men on the committee and it was just so, so horrific.
00:05:28
Speaker
So I completely feel your pain there because it's just proper like liberal feminism brainwashed.
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and it had all become really theory at that point.
00:05:38
Speaker
We weren't learning much about first wave feminism or women's history or even really much of second wave feminism.
00:05:45
Speaker
It was all these sort of modern academic third wave theorists.
00:05:49
Speaker
But yeah, I guess when I started writing, like I started blogging, I started doing feminist radio with a feminist collective, fell apart, of course, as they all do.
00:06:00
Speaker
And podcasting, I was sort of like one of the only ones, you know, I was always at odds with all the sort of mainstream feminists, all the leftists,
Controversial Views and Censorship in Feminism
00:06:10
Speaker
you know, all the...
00:06:11
Speaker
Jessica Valentis and Jill Flipovich's of the world and Amanda Marcotte and all those people.
00:06:17
Speaker
I don't know who's listening or remembers all those people back from the like, I don't know, 2011s or whatever.
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, I remember.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I, you know, and I was critical of BDSM.
00:06:28
Speaker
And that was like a big no, no, you weren't allowed to be critical of anything that was counted as sexual, really, and I was so I was always difficult and controversial.
00:06:40
Speaker
And then of course, the whole gender identity thing came along.
00:06:45
Speaker
And that was really it for me.
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:48
Speaker
I don't know like when that started taking over.
00:06:51
Speaker
But like, do you recall at like what point this started becoming more common?
00:06:56
Speaker
Because you did mention that the program was changed while you were still there.
00:06:59
Speaker
Because when I was in college, like, I don't know whether I was like living in a cave or something.
00:07:04
Speaker
But like, it seemed to blown up like, in the mid 2010s.
00:07:09
Speaker
I don't know if I'm correct in assessing that.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:07:12
Speaker
When I was in university, when I was doing my BA, it didn't exist in as far as conversation or topics.
00:07:19
Speaker
When I was doing my master's degree, it came up a little bit, but it wasn't really that controversial and it was not a major topic of conversation.
00:07:31
Speaker
But I do recall, you know,
00:07:33
Speaker
The reason why I first started speaking out about it was because I was, you know, working with Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter in Vancouver.
00:07:43
Speaker
And a lot of those women, you know, I was connected, I was allied with them is the word that we would have used at that time.
00:07:50
Speaker
And they were constantly being attacked as transphobic because they'd had this
00:07:56
Speaker
years-long case that they were forced to fight at the Human Rights Tribunal in Canada because a man named Kimberly Nixon had shown up at one of their training sessions for counselors, so for female counselors who would be working in the transition house and shelter with the women or answering the rape crisis line.
00:08:16
Speaker
It was women only who were part of the collective.
00:08:18
Speaker
It was women only who could be in the house and answer the line.
00:08:22
Speaker
And, of course, women only in the shelter and transition house.
00:08:25
Speaker
For obvious reasons.
00:08:26
Speaker
You know, these are women who are escaping really serious male violence.
00:08:30
Speaker
So, of course, you wouldn't want men around in those circumstances.
00:08:34
Speaker
And men don't understand what that experience is like, no matter how many times you explain it to them.
00:08:39
Speaker
They just don't.
00:08:40
Speaker
They can't.
00:08:40
Speaker
I don't think they understand that feeling of vulnerability in the same way women do.
00:08:45
Speaker
So he showed up and they realized that he was a man because he's male and you can tell.
00:08:51
Speaker
And pretend like, but you can.
00:08:53
Speaker
And they said, sorry, you know, this training is only for women, not men.
00:08:58
Speaker
And he sued them.
00:08:59
Speaker
You know, he cares so much about helping women suffering male violence or escaping domestic violence or, you know, coping with the aftermath of rape or whatever that he decided to try to destroy one of the few places in Canada that helps those women.
00:09:13
Speaker
So they were forced to go through this years, years, years, years long case.
00:09:18
Speaker
And they finally won.
00:09:20
Speaker
Oh, that's good.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, but they, you know, ever since they were tarred as transphobic by the Vancouver lefties and I was defensive of them.
00:09:29
Speaker
And so I started to try to figure out how to articulate arguments around, you know, why women-only space is important.
00:09:36
Speaker
And that was around 2012 that I started talking about those things.
00:09:40
Speaker
And I think it was 2015 that
Impact of Gender Identity Legislation on Feminism
00:09:43
Speaker
everything really blew up.
00:09:44
Speaker
And all of a sudden it was like we were hearing language like menstruators and pregnant people
00:09:50
Speaker
and trans women are women.
00:09:52
Speaker
And then, of course, gender identity legislation was introduced in Canada, as well as in America and in the UK.
00:09:58
Speaker
That all kind of happened all at once.
00:10:00
Speaker
And so at that point, you know, that became my focus, because I saw right away how dangerous and fucked up it was.
00:10:10
Speaker
And again, I was, you know, one of the only...
00:10:13
Speaker
people, certainly one of the only women and feminists in Canada who was at the time on the left, I don't identify as a leftist anymore, but who was talking about this stuff publicly.
00:10:23
Speaker
And, you know, I was fighting to be published, which was next to impossible.
00:10:28
Speaker
And I became an easy target, I guess.
00:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's quite the history with, you know, feminism as well.
00:10:37
Speaker
And as I've said before, because I started following me, I think around 2018 when all that trans stuff was really kicking off for the first time.
00:10:47
Speaker
And it was really, really great just like seeing, because again, back then it was quite rare to have somebody, you know, actually speak up against it and try to protect women's rights.
00:10:57
Speaker
And you had people like Magdalene Burns as well, RIP.
00:11:00
Speaker
I was really sad when she passed away.
00:11:02
Speaker
you know, who was also part of that voice as well.
00:11:04
Speaker
So that was probably the first time I came across a substantive amount of your work too.
00:11:09
Speaker
I feel like every feminist in the public eye sort of goes through a journey with feminism, especially when you begin to clash with other feminists online over ideology as well.
00:11:20
Speaker
You know, like yourself, I strongly believe in radical feminism, but I've been...
00:11:25
Speaker
I guess, unofficially kicked out of being a radical feminist by a radical feminist.
00:11:31
Speaker
But, you know, never mind.
00:11:33
Speaker
We move.
00:11:33
Speaker
It happens to all of us.
00:11:34
Speaker
It happens to everyone, right?
00:11:36
Speaker
And I feel like, what's that saying in Spider-Man?
00:11:38
Speaker
Where if you live like long enough, you see yourself, that then you'll become the villain or something.
00:11:44
Speaker
I definitely feel like that ends up happening to outspoken women over a period of time is that they'll just end up pissing somebody off, you know, with what they're saying.
00:11:51
Speaker
But you know, it is crazy like how there was such a like ideological capture that happened at that time, because I have to say that I was one of those people who really bought into all of that hook, line and sinker.
00:12:02
Speaker
And, you know, my whole thing was like, oh, you know, it takes nothing to be kind and everything.
00:12:06
Speaker
And then I remember I had a friend who sat me down and actually spoke to me about it.
00:12:09
Speaker
And she was like, like, really think it through.
00:12:11
Speaker
Right.
00:12:12
Speaker
And I really, really want to thank this friend, because if she hadn't sat me down and like, I pride myself on being a person who can change my mind when presented with other opinions.
00:12:22
Speaker
And when she talked about all the situations that were going on in the prisons,
00:12:26
Speaker
and how important it was to have single sex spaces.
00:12:28
Speaker
I remember when I first joined FDS, that was something I noticed as well, that it was like an all female space and that part of the criticism of FDS from the other groups was that it was transphobic.
00:12:37
Speaker
And so I went out of my way to find this so-called transphobia on the page, which I could never find.
00:12:43
Speaker
But the more I stood in that messaging and the more I spoke to other people who definitely had other opinions, I was like, yeah, no, this is mass scale ideological capture.
00:12:54
Speaker
and it's affecting government policies and it's affecting academic institutions.
00:12:59
Speaker
It has such a rigid hold.
00:13:01
Speaker
And I used to love JK Rowling.
00:13:03
Speaker
So when they took a hit on her, I was like, okay, now what the hell is going on?
00:13:08
Speaker
They're coming after the children's authors now?
00:13:10
Speaker
This is crazy.
00:13:11
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, it's wild just how fast that became the unofficial law of the land.
00:13:18
Speaker
It happened so fast.
00:13:20
Speaker
It just it really wasn't a debate pre
Ideological Clashes and the Trans Movement's Influence
00:13:24
Speaker
2010.
00:13:24
Speaker
And then it just all of a sudden was everywhere, which I think really goes to show how top down it was, you know, this wasn't a grassroots sort of organic.
00:13:37
Speaker
movement of activism that rose up to defend the marginalized trans, you know, came from top down, from governments, from institutions.
00:13:46
Speaker
Of course, you know, corporations plumbed on, you know, it's such a powerful ideology.
00:13:53
Speaker
And those who spoke out were probably already marginal and then further marginalized by the media, by their institutions, by the universities.
00:14:04
Speaker
ignored by the politicians and vilified in the public, you know, banned and censored across the board.
00:14:10
Speaker
I was in 2018.
00:14:12
Speaker
That's when I was banned from Twitter for four years for referring to a male predator, Jonathan Yaniv, the guy who famously was seeking a Brazilian bikini wax from
00:14:23
Speaker
female estheticians in Vancouver.
00:14:25
Speaker
I called him, he was banned from Twitter.
00:14:27
Speaker
And also, you know, my two incriminating, I think I had three incriminating tweets.
00:14:32
Speaker
And one of them was literally, the other one was, it's him referring to Jonathan Yaniv.
00:14:37
Speaker
And the other one was asking,
00:14:40
Speaker
something along the lines of what's the difference between a trans woman and a man?
00:14:43
Speaker
You know, like I was trying to say, ask, you know, what point does a man become a trans woman?
00:14:48
Speaker
And what's the difference there?
00:14:49
Speaker
What's happened that he's no longer a man and now he's a woman.
00:14:53
Speaker
And it was so strange.
00:14:55
Speaker
It was like the whole world had gone insane.
00:14:59
Speaker
And those of us who were fighting this, it was almost like, why do we have to do this?
00:15:05
Speaker
This is such a weird distraction.
00:15:07
Speaker
And of course, it's not a distraction because it's everything.
00:15:10
Speaker
I mean, what's a woman's right if there's no such thing as a woman?
00:15:14
Speaker
And
00:15:15
Speaker
You know, I became a big advocate for free speech during that time, too, because it was really, really clear what could happen if we didn't have free speech and how dangerous that was.
00:15:29
Speaker
And that put me at odds with...
00:15:32
Speaker
a lot of the feminists I had been allied with and working with and who'd been supporting me all those years because unfortunately the truth is that a lot of feminists don't support free speech.
00:15:41
Speaker
They support free speech for them, but not for the people that they think are bad, which defeats the purpose of free speech.
00:15:49
Speaker
Yeah, and it was one thing when it was just the trans movement, but then once they brought in non-binary, I was like, okay.
00:15:56
Speaker
You just chose to be a woman today.
00:15:58
Speaker
How am I supposed to know...
00:16:00
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:16:01
Speaker
Like, I just felt like a man today.
00:16:03
Speaker
And it's like, it's weird how in adopting these newfangled labels, they've somehow managed to cement the binary even more.
00:16:11
Speaker
It's like, oh, I am a man because I choose to wear jeans.
00:16:14
Speaker
It's like, when was that ever an indicator of you being a man?
00:16:17
Speaker
Like how?
00:16:18
Speaker
And what happened to feminism?
00:16:19
Speaker
You know, like I grew up in this feminism where it was cool to be a tomboy.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I, when I was a kid, I didn't like girly things.
00:16:29
Speaker
And, you know, some of that hatred of girly things, I think, was sort of like not necessarily a positive outcome of feminism because I also felt like, you know, motherhood was kind of lame and boring
Personal Reflections on Gender and Sexuality
00:16:42
Speaker
and pathetic.
00:16:42
Speaker
And, you know, anything that was associated with femininity, like I didn't want anything to do with that because I thought that all of the boys stuff was cooler.
00:16:50
Speaker
But, you know, in a lot of ways, the boys things are cooler.
00:16:53
Speaker
You know, like I wanted to play with the boys and I like playing with trucks and blocks and I wanted to be
00:16:59
Speaker
adventurous and speak up and be difficult.
00:17:01
Speaker
And I never, you know, femininity never really felt natural to me.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I often wondered, you know, when I was a teenager, I sort of felt like I was supposed to be performing in this way that I couldn't really master and that didn't feel comfortable to me.
00:17:17
Speaker
I wasn't good at being passive and coy.
00:17:20
Speaker
And, you know, I always was argumentative and kind of rebellious and difficult and
00:17:27
Speaker
The clothing thing is like, oh, well, today I feel like wearing, you know, men's jeans and men's, you know, like a flannel or whatever.
00:17:33
Speaker
So maybe I'm a man today.
00:17:35
Speaker
And it's like, I wear men's clothes all the time.
00:17:37
Speaker
I like men's clothes.
00:17:39
Speaker
Like, it doesn't make me a man.
00:17:41
Speaker
Ridiculous.
00:17:42
Speaker
And the gender police would probably think you're a man now.
00:17:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:45
Speaker
With all the shit that you said, you're like, you probably are a man, Megan.
00:17:48
Speaker
Maybe you don't know.
00:17:50
Speaker
I know.
00:17:51
Speaker
I joke about that.
00:17:52
Speaker
I'm like, because I'm a man on the inside.
00:17:54
Speaker
Because I often, you know, I do feel, I guess if I had to call it something, I do feel kind of more masculine than I am.
00:18:02
Speaker
I've never desired traditional femininity.
00:18:06
Speaker
Like I've never wanted to be a mother and a wife or, you know, I've never been particularly nurturing.
00:18:11
Speaker
I've never been particularly nice.
00:18:14
Speaker
And I get along with men and I'm vulgar and I like to, you know, yell and burp and swear in bars and things like that.
00:18:22
Speaker
It's like, maybe I am a man on the inside.
00:18:25
Speaker
You know, if I had been born a decade or two later, then who knows what have happened.
00:18:30
Speaker
You know, I don't think that my parents would have gone along with that nonsense.
00:18:33
Speaker
But I can see that being appealing to me when I was young, for sure, because I sort of wanted that.
00:18:39
Speaker
You know, I remember teaching myself how to pee standing up, but it didn't make me think I was a boy.
00:18:44
Speaker
I just was like, oh, that seems cool.
00:18:46
Speaker
I want to do that.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
And I think that all this essentially ties in quite nicely to what feminism has, or the mainstream feminism ultimately has become, because what it has unfortunately morphed into is almost like a men's rights movement.
00:19:06
Speaker
And a key aspect of that ideology now is that women can find empowerment,
00:19:15
Speaker
and respectability through, you know, through things like casual sex, and trying to approach sex in the same way that men do.
00:19:25
Speaker
I think one of the biggest mistakes that liberal feminism made, they made a lot of good strides in terms of galities alongside the radical feminists and, you know, getting, you know, women equal rights in law.
00:19:37
Speaker
But at the same time, what they failed to caveat was the fact that
00:19:40
Speaker
men and women are not the same both you know it's also in terms of biology and also in terms of the way society treats and perceives men and women and i feel like the approach to casual sex is a really really good example of that of those differences
00:19:57
Speaker
I do just want to add, though, that like, you know, as much as we're saying that things kind of got to a fever pitch in 2015, I feel like liberal feminism was priming for this, for this casual sex thing since like as early as the early 2000s, because I remember like Sex and the City and like these episodes about having sex like men and like having sex without feeling.
00:20:18
Speaker
and just kind of normalizing casual sex in a way.
00:20:21
Speaker
And I feel like, I mean, at that time, it was probably considered radical.
00:20:24
Speaker
But like, in hindsight, I feel like they also just caused a lot of destruction, because they normalized extremely terrible situationships, and like, just a lot of disrespect for women.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I think a lot of women normalize that as like, oh, these are normal parts of relationship.
00:20:38
Speaker
Like, yeah, you're supposed to be in this situationship with this guy who's like,
00:20:42
Speaker
much richer and older than you and spend seven seasons or whatever just chasing after him.
00:20:47
Speaker
And yeah, you should date this homosexual guy who doesn't do anything for you and doesn't add any value to your life.
00:20:53
Speaker
And yeah, you should have sex like a man and not worry about chlamydia or syphilis or whatever.
00:20:59
Speaker
And like, you know, the logical, practical aspects of that were just taken away.
00:21:02
Speaker
And like, if you criticize that and said, Hey, actually, it's kind of dangerous for women to be this foolish about their sexual choices, you would just get like this whole, like the book slammed on you.
00:21:13
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:21:13
Speaker
Like, you're a prudish bitch, how dare you is my body, my choice and all this other shit.
00:21:18
Speaker
And like, you know, you couldn't have a sensible discussion with people.
00:21:22
Speaker
No, I mean, it was also fake and forced too, you know, I mean, and I can say this because I feel like I went through it myself.
The Influence of Pornography and BDSM on Feminism
00:21:32
Speaker
It's not just a judgment of other women, you know, which I think it's fine to judge other women.
00:21:38
Speaker
I think it's fine to judge anybody.
00:21:39
Speaker
We do that inherently as human beings.
00:21:41
Speaker
I don't know when judgment became a bad thing.
00:21:44
Speaker
I know, right?
00:21:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:46
Speaker
Like, you're judging people all the time.
00:21:48
Speaker
Like, what are you just walking around the world with your eyes closed and your brain shut?
00:21:52
Speaker
What are you talking about?
00:21:53
Speaker
And it's always the people that say you shouldn't be judging me.
00:21:57
Speaker
You shouldn't judge my choices.
00:21:58
Speaker
Who are judging you for disagreeing with them?
00:22:00
Speaker
So it's like you're doing the same thing.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, of course.
00:22:04
Speaker
But yeah, it was women were trying to all this like forcing yourself to pretend that you enjoy pornography and BDSM like you enjoy being hurt in the bedroom and degraded and called all these horrible names like I don't believe you and maybe it can feel exciting in the moment.
00:22:22
Speaker
But the idea that that's empowering in the long term and that's the way that you should be treated by a man is so clearly wrong.
00:22:29
Speaker
And
00:22:30
Speaker
I remember I would have friends and they'd be like, oh yeah, no, I really enjoy anal sex.
00:22:34
Speaker
I'm like, what do you enjoy about it?
00:22:36
Speaker
Like you enjoy being a man's pornographic fantasy, but you know, you don't have a prostate.
00:22:42
Speaker
So you're not having sex from having anal sex.
00:22:47
Speaker
Like that's not what your butt is built for.
00:22:49
Speaker
Stop lying.
00:22:50
Speaker
And you don't have to do these things to get men to like you or to want you or to find a relationship.
00:22:59
Speaker
It's always hilarious to think about this idea that women think, oh, I need to do this to get a guy.
00:23:06
Speaker
I need to send nudes to get a guy.
00:23:07
Speaker
I need to pretend to like porn or pretend to like anal sex or whatever.
00:23:11
Speaker
And it's like, men are not picky.
00:23:12
Speaker
Like, it's not that hard to get a man to date you.
00:23:18
Speaker
And actually, because I used to be quite active within the BDSM community, and what was super interesting was the prevalence of the Madonna whore complex.
00:23:28
Speaker
So what that was is that the doms, they were usually male, you know, they'd be able to slap, beat up, abuse a woman, you know, who was just a sub.
00:23:37
Speaker
But at the same time, when I would then ask them, okay, like, have you ever been in a romantic relationship with a submissive or a woman who identified a submissive?
00:23:45
Speaker
And all of them said no.
00:23:47
Speaker
And so it was sort of then that the penny dropped for me.
00:23:50
Speaker
So it's like, I thought that this was something that was intrinsic, so to speak, to these doms that they needed BDSM, but they don't.
00:23:57
Speaker
And they're very selective about the women that they abuse.
00:24:00
Speaker
So the women that they purport to love the most, they couldn't ever imagine inflicting something like BDSM on them.
00:24:06
Speaker
It was always the women that they just saw as a casual fling or, you know, just another submissive.
00:24:11
Speaker
That is interesting.
00:24:13
Speaker
You know, I think that because I grew up in this era, this time in feminism where, and because of radical feminism, I thought that, you know, marriage was bad.
00:24:25
Speaker
I was sort of unconvinced that monogamy was good or necessarily natural.
00:24:31
Speaker
And so I sort of
00:24:32
Speaker
went through this phase of thinking, oh, maybe polyamory is the way to go.
00:24:36
Speaker
But of course, I could never do that.
00:24:38
Speaker
And I was never interested in having more than one relationship at a time anyway, never mind having my partner sleeping with other women.
00:24:46
Speaker
Like this is what I wrote about in my piece, which is that I never really took
00:24:50
Speaker
sex all that seriously because it seemed like it didn't matter because I thought, well, I'm not looking for the father of my children and I'm not looking for a man to marry.
00:25:00
Speaker
So I technically can sleep with whoever I want.
00:25:04
Speaker
And I believed that should have no negative impact.
00:25:10
Speaker
But then, of course, it was emotionally torturous and
00:25:13
Speaker
And then you're left with this idea that maybe there's something wrong with you, because why are you feeling hurt all the time?
00:25:19
Speaker
Why can't you have sex like the boys?
00:25:22
Speaker
And it is in large part because this modern iteration of feminism told us that and the women around me reinforced that message.
00:25:31
Speaker
And because, yeah, of shows like Sex and the City, which don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching.
00:25:35
Speaker
I've seen, I've watched those seasons over and over and over.
00:25:39
Speaker
But
00:25:40
Speaker
You know, who's Samantha?
00:25:42
Speaker
Like, who's Samantha in real life?
00:25:44
Speaker
Like, that's a gay man.
00:25:45
Speaker
First of all, like, this is a show made by gay men.
00:25:49
Speaker
I don't understand what it's like to be a woman either.
00:25:51
Speaker
But, you know, Samantha's life...
00:25:56
Speaker
was supposed to, I guess, be enviable, but it wasn't.
00:26:00
Speaker
I mean, I certainly was not capable of that, and I don't think most women that I know are capable of that, just, you know, meeting random guys and having sex with them, like men that you don't even know.
00:26:11
Speaker
Having sex with strangers is such a dangerous, unappealing, unfulfilling thing for a woman to do.
00:26:18
Speaker
You know, that was all just a lie.
00:26:21
Speaker
Even within the show, like you can tell that it's coming from a place of insecurity a lot of times.
00:26:26
Speaker
Like if I were to meet a woman who was having sex as much as Samantha was, I would assume that she's like severely traumatized.
00:26:32
Speaker
Like that's not, you know, a healthy way of being.
00:26:36
Speaker
And I mean, you could see that in her like intimate relationships, because as much as she had like this false sort of bravado about how strong she was, like in her relationship, she completely let the men walk all over her.
00:26:49
Speaker
maybe with the exception of like her last one with Smith, but like with the other ones, I mean, with Richard, for example, like, I mean, that guy treated her like shit.
00:26:56
Speaker
He like cheated on her everything.
00:26:57
Speaker
She was totally okay with it, you know?
00:26:59
Speaker
And also the reason why I think that character was sold as like this feminist sort of fantasy was because she has it all, right?
00:27:05
Speaker
She's got money, she's got power.
00:27:07
Speaker
And then she's also got the ability to have sex with like all these attractive men.
00:27:11
Speaker
And that's very much a male fantasy.
00:27:14
Speaker
And so for a lot of women, I think that they were also kind of brainwashed into thinking that they could have that for themselves.
00:27:20
Speaker
You know, even in my position, like when I've dated men, when I was younger, especially, I feel like I wasn't nearly as firm about my sexual boundaries, just because I was very manipulated by the media in terms of like what I should allow.
00:27:31
Speaker
And I didn't have the vocabulary or the strength that I have now to push back and say, hey, I'm not comfortable doing that.
00:27:39
Speaker
And so much of the media teaches you that you should be pleasing them.
00:27:42
Speaker
Even in Sex and the Sea, even with Cosmo, all these other magazines, the focus is always on please the man, right?
00:27:48
Speaker
Make sure his sexual fantasies are fulfilled and that you do whatever you can to make him happy.
00:27:53
Speaker
So your sexual agency is kind of taken away from you.
00:27:57
Speaker
And your ability to define for yourself like, hey, what feels comfortable to me?
00:28:01
Speaker
What feels healthy to me?
00:28:02
Speaker
Like, do I even want to do this shit?
00:28:04
Speaker
Like, do I even want to have anal sex with this guy?
00:28:06
Speaker
Do I want to sit and watch like, I don't know, strangulation porn with this guy in his bedroom?
00:28:11
Speaker
Like, no, I don't want to do these things.
00:28:12
Speaker
But when you're younger, I think when you're early 20s, it's very hard to say no.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, and you don't know yourself.
00:28:19
Speaker
So you don't even know if you want it or not.
00:28:22
Speaker
And if you have a bad feeling about it, you're left wondering if you're just not a sexually liberated or sexually empowered woman.
00:28:31
Speaker
But what's really...
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:51
Speaker
The sex is so much better.
00:28:52
Speaker
And, you know, women are much more likely to have orgasms in committed relationships than, you know, I don't know that any women are honestly having orgasms when they're having one night stands, a few here and there.
00:29:04
Speaker
But, you know, trusting someone and feeling like somebody respects you and loves you and cares about you.
00:29:11
Speaker
is a huge part of having good sex.
00:29:14
Speaker
And it's such a male view of sex that sex is just, oh, we're doing this with our genitals and that produces a good feeling.
00:29:23
Speaker
It's not how it works for women.
00:29:25
Speaker
And, you know, men, of course, are going to have better sex and more powerful orgasms and relationships likely too, but they are built to be able to come together
00:29:35
Speaker
Regardless, like men can have sex with and have orgasms with women that they don't even like or respect.
00:29:41
Speaker
And I don't really think that's the case for women in large part.
00:29:47
Speaker
And nobody tells you that.
00:29:50
Speaker
And also, I feel like even for men, even though, like, I suppose if we say, you know, they're built for casual sex, so to speak, but all the like promiscuous men that I've come across, they've even also said that,
00:30:04
Speaker
the best sex that they've had was when they got to know the person, when they were in a relationship.
Promiscuity and Emotional Needs: A Feminist Perspective
00:30:10
Speaker
And so there are a lot of people who are, I suppose, it's essentially lying, you know, not just, you know, to themselves, but to other people, just basically about like how, I guess, fantastic casual sex is.
00:30:24
Speaker
And, you know, just off the back of, you know, what you were saying, Megan, I think,
00:30:29
Speaker
you know, just like how feminism has sort of been like hijacked to become a men's rights movement.
00:30:35
Speaker
I also believe that the sex positivity movement for women has also been like essentially hijacked in the same way.
00:30:42
Speaker
And, you know, sex positivity now, it basically means that you are only sex positive if you are willing to have sex as quickly as possible.
00:30:50
Speaker
When actually, just because you are having sex quickly, that doesn't mean that you're having sex positively, especially if you are having sex
00:30:59
Speaker
in a way that doesn't serve you.
00:31:00
Speaker
And a lot of casual sex just doesn't serve women.
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and that whole ideology just seems like the perfect gateway to normalizing prostitution and pornography and self objectification and, you know, sending nudes and doing OnlyFans and stuff like that.
00:31:19
Speaker
Because why would you need a connection to any of these men?
00:31:23
Speaker
Why would you need to know any of these men?
00:31:25
Speaker
We're all sexually liberated women who can do whatever we want.
00:31:28
Speaker
And
00:31:29
Speaker
you know, if theoretically casual sex is not just fine, but enjoyable and empowering and fun for women, then why not get paid for it?
00:31:37
Speaker
What's the difference?
00:31:38
Speaker
It doesn't mean anything.
00:31:40
Speaker
It's like a completely non-holistic approach to sex, which is strange for a movement, you know, so much of third wave feminism was about
00:31:51
Speaker
anti-rape culture.
00:31:53
Speaker
But, you know, why would rape be a big deal?
00:31:57
Speaker
Why would rape be traumatic if it's just bodies and it's just sex?
00:32:01
Speaker
And of course, the answer is consent, right?
00:32:04
Speaker
So they've simplified everything down to if you consent, then it's all fine and good.
00:32:08
Speaker
And if you don't consent, it's bad, which again, doesn't address the
00:32:12
Speaker
the emotional impacts of any of that and, you know, how you feel as a full human being when someone's doing something to you that is degrading or that you don't want versus being with someone who cares about your well-being and cares about you as a person.
00:32:32
Speaker
It's such a simplistic kind of analysis that is really anti-human in a lot of ways.
00:32:40
Speaker
Agreed.
00:32:41
Speaker
I feel like society likes to basically oscillate between two extremes and the current state of, you know, things like sex positivity and then the acceptance of casual sex.
00:32:53
Speaker
Though I am seeing a lot of pushback now against casual sex, but it's almost like in response to, because I grew up in a very, very religious household where it was basically like, if you had sex before marriage, you're going straight to hell.
00:33:07
Speaker
like that sort of rhetoric and things like you know bdsm and the casual sex culture it's almost like because essentially putting the pendulum in completely opposite direction when like you said humans are a lot more nuanced it's almost like there's a false dichotomy right because if you protest against bdsm or casual sex you know you get told you know oh
00:33:30
Speaker
you know, while you're such a conservative, you're sex negative.
00:33:34
Speaker
And that always makes me chuckle because something like BDSM is probably the most sexually conservative way to have sex.
00:33:40
Speaker
Like, do you think that any religion is going to be anti-BDSM when majority of the major religions teaches that the man is basically the dominant and the woman should be submissive?
00:33:51
Speaker
Do you think any religion is going to look at the dom sub dynamic and think, oh, you know, that's against...
00:33:57
Speaker
you know, the natural order as we see it, they're going to probably sit there and think, yeah, that's how it should be.
00:34:02
Speaker
But at the same time, then you'll get people saying things like, oh, there's female doms too, but the female doms, they're not regarded the same way as the male doms, and it's not even close.
00:34:13
Speaker
So that's just a red herring.
00:34:14
Speaker
And I would assume that there'd probably be more male doms than female anyway.
00:34:19
Speaker
100% 100% and we actually had a really brilliant like female dom on the podcast sometime last year and the stories that she was telling me it was like like this shit that no pun intended would literally not fly with a male dom and I feel really bad because you know these female doms are being exploited in quite a horrific way because
00:34:43
Speaker
But it isn't acknowledged because on the surface, it seems like, you know, well, they're a dom too.
00:34:48
Speaker
And it's like, it's just not the same.
00:34:51
Speaker
And the, I guess the patriarchal, you know, dynamics where, you know, basically the man is the leader, regardless of if he takes the position of sub or dom and the woman is just basically there to be a kink dispenser, whether she is the sub or the dom, it's still the same thing.
00:35:08
Speaker
And I used to, when I was in the community, I actually used to pity the female doms probably the most out of the subs and the female.
00:35:17
Speaker
It was just so much more shit they had to wade through.
00:35:20
Speaker
And it would essentially be, I mean, the dominance or, for example, the male dominance, they weren't too much better.
00:35:26
Speaker
But with the male subs, it would almost be like they would be trying to dominate them from the bottom, if that makes sense.
00:35:35
Speaker
But then they wouldn't,
00:35:37
Speaker
essentially the respect or the regard as a dominant in quotation marks it wouldn't be there in the same way that a female sub would respect and regard her dominant
00:35:48
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:35:48
Speaker
I didn't know any of that.
00:35:50
Speaker
I mean, when I think about BDSM, you know, when you think about the women who are tied up in these supposedly sexual ways, you don't think about men, you think about women, like you think about the images of like Dita Vontis and those kinds of like, sort of famous BDSM type women.
00:36:12
Speaker
you know, yeah, being tied up and gagged and whipped and things like that.
00:36:16
Speaker
And I know that there's some men who have some version of those fetishes, but I think you're right that primarily what you see is the fetishization of female submission and the abuse of women.
00:36:27
Speaker
You know, it's not a thing where women are choking men in bed, but it's definitely a thing where men are choking women in bed.
00:36:34
Speaker
Exactly.
00:36:35
Speaker
A hundred percent.
00:36:37
Speaker
Like you don't...
00:36:38
Speaker
Like I've never desired or been asked to choke a man in bed.
00:36:42
Speaker
It's never occurred to me.
00:36:43
Speaker
I don't want to be choked myself either.
00:36:45
Speaker
But the amount of young women, I'm sure you guys hear this as much as I do, who are talking about men choking them in bed, you know, unprovoked or whatever.
00:36:54
Speaker
I had someone ask me once.
00:36:57
Speaker
And like, that was the first time I ever had to think about it because I didn't know it was so common.
00:37:00
Speaker
And I was like, no.
00:37:01
Speaker
And I kicked him out of my house like almost immediately.
00:37:04
Speaker
Good.
00:37:04
Speaker
Because I was scared.
00:37:05
Speaker
I was scared because I was like, is he like, you know, a Freddy Krueger kind of, is he going to kill me?
00:37:09
Speaker
Like, that was my first thought.
00:37:10
Speaker
I was like, why would you want to strangle someone?
00:37:12
Speaker
What part of this is sexy?
00:37:13
Speaker
Until I realized that they're not really fantasizing about having sex with you.
00:37:18
Speaker
They're fantasizing about being violent with you.
00:37:20
Speaker
They're getting off on being violent with you.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:24
Speaker
It's not fantasizing about having a sexual connection with you or intimacy with you.
00:37:28
Speaker
It's fantasizing about the chance to beat you and assault you and hurt you.
00:37:32
Speaker
They're getting off like on the fact that they're being violent towards you.
00:37:36
Speaker
And it wasn't until like, I got asked that question that I was like, that is a really strange and bizarre thing to ask because I'm, you know, obviously, not that entrenched in this extremely pornified culture that men are in.
00:37:47
Speaker
But like, I mean, also porn is a big part of this.
00:37:50
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:37:50
Speaker
Because like, I don't think there's a man around me that doesn't watch porn anymore.
00:37:55
Speaker
Like, I feel like the ones that I know who don't are like very, very few in between.
00:37:59
Speaker
Maybe I can count them on like one hand.
00:38:01
Speaker
And even then, I'm not 100% sure because, you know, you never really know what people do behind closed doors.
00:38:06
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:38:07
Speaker
I know some men who have quit watching porn.
The Normalization of Pornography and Its Effects
00:38:11
Speaker
I'm sure I don't know any men who've never used porn.
00:38:14
Speaker
And as you say, it's few and far between.
00:38:17
Speaker
And when you say critical things about pornography, most people, women and men, will be shocked, which is it's sad and revealing that especially for men and men who are my age, you know, I'm in my 40s now.
00:38:34
Speaker
And they've never heard a woman say, no, I don't want you to use porn or no, I won't be in a relationship with you if you use pornography.
00:38:43
Speaker
It's all been fine as good as far as they're concerned.
00:38:46
Speaker
And it's never even occurred to them that someone would have a problem with it.
00:38:50
Speaker
When I've had boyfriends or I'm dating a man and I say, I don't want to be in a relationship with you if you use pornography, I'm always the first person who's ever said that to them.
00:38:59
Speaker
Always.
00:39:01
Speaker
And that's so depressing as well.
00:39:03
Speaker
And like, again, I feel like, you know, pornography has an awful, awful lot to answer for the way, I suppose, not only the way we view sex, but also the way like women feel their role is in sex.
00:39:17
Speaker
I was recently, when I was researching this episode today, I came across a Reddit thread and the poster was asking about, you know, like, how can I reduce my gag reflex?
00:39:28
Speaker
And majority of the comments were basically talking about the ways in which a woman can reduce like a gag reflex so she can give a better blowjob.
00:39:37
Speaker
And only one comment said, like, I can't believe that women are willing to essentially turn off a survival mechanism, which is your gag reflex, just for the sake of a man.
00:39:48
Speaker
I don't see men making threads on how
00:39:51
Speaker
So I don't know, to be able to eat a woman out for an hour straight without getting a crick in their neck.
00:39:56
Speaker
I don't see men doing that.
00:39:57
Speaker
But women, we will literally contort ourselves into pretzels, you know, deactivate survival mechanisms just to make it slightly more pleasurable for a porn sick man.
00:40:07
Speaker
Because like, again, like blowjobs are not really a thing until the 70s, especially not deep throating.
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like the idea that women started to pride themselves on being able to perform all these painful or uncomfortable or, you know, clearly pornographic fantasies for men.
00:40:26
Speaker
And, you know, and I was always accused of being prudish for not wanting to do it.
00:40:30
Speaker
And I participated in plenty, but I always refused to, you know...
00:40:35
Speaker
wax my entire body.
00:40:37
Speaker
It's like men don't care about this and I don't like it.
00:40:41
Speaker
I'm not interested in looking like a pre-pubescent girl.
00:40:44
Speaker
And like I did try anal sex and it was really painful.
00:40:47
Speaker
So I didn't do it again.
00:40:48
Speaker
The idea of being like, oh, I should really train myself to accept this uncomfortable, painful thing that I don't want to do and I don't get anything out of
00:40:59
Speaker
for, you know, to fulfill a man's fantasy that he got from pornography when I don't even want to be dating or in a relationship with a man who watches porn.
00:41:07
Speaker
The acceptance of pornography is one of the most disturbing things to me about this culture and modern feminism, which is that you just women my age and younger all have completely normalized it and just tell themselves and tell their friends, which makes me really angry because I'm like, don't say this to me.
00:41:26
Speaker
Don't say this to other women.
00:41:28
Speaker
oh, you know, it's just a fantasy.
00:41:29
Speaker
It doesn't matter.
00:41:29
Speaker
And like, it's not a fantasy.
00:41:31
Speaker
Those are real people.
00:41:33
Speaker
He's a real person.
00:41:34
Speaker
He's doing a real thing.
00:41:35
Speaker
The people in that video are again, you know, real person doing real sexual acts.
00:41:41
Speaker
And I don't know how you can live with yourself or be in a relationship knowing that your partner is jacking off to
00:41:49
Speaker
any pornography, but you know, particularly in this is most porn, violent, degrading, abusive pornography, where you don't even know what's happening on the other side of the screen.
00:41:59
Speaker
You don't know if that person is, you know, I mean, most women in pornography are really fucked up people who have really horrific, traumatic backgrounds.
00:42:08
Speaker
That's just the way it is.
00:42:10
Speaker
And any woman who doesn't have a traumatic, horrific background who's chosen not to be in porn,
00:42:16
Speaker
and can't imagine doing pornography would probably understand that.
00:42:19
Speaker
But yeah, it's really upsetting to me how women have grown up to feel like they just have to accept this.
00:42:27
Speaker
Yep.
00:42:27
Speaker
And I mean, I think hell would freeze over before men were the ones who actually were like, hey, what can we do to make women's sex lives better?
00:42:34
Speaker
Like I'm waiting for the day that that actually happens.
00:42:37
Speaker
Because look at their magazines.
00:42:39
Speaker
I mean, like when have you pulled open a Sports Illustrated magazine and like someone's writing, oh, five ways to make your girlfriend come like that never happens.
00:42:48
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:42:49
Speaker
You never see any kind of media like, you know, towards men that tells them to be better partners, that tells them to be better husbands, that tells them to be better lovers.
00:42:56
Speaker
Like, no, all of that stuff is like women have to contort themselves into all of these shapes in order to be appealing to men.
00:43:03
Speaker
And like we have to, outside of all the other like gender norms that we have to follow, you know, like, I mean, I'm just going to say it.
00:43:10
Speaker
We're like the attractive ones now.
00:43:12
Speaker
Like, I can't think of the last time, like, I don't know whether COVID took away my ability to be attracted to a lot of men.
00:43:17
Speaker
But now when I see most of them, I'm just like, because a lot of, you know what I mean?
00:43:21
Speaker
A lot of them have gotten really, really fucking grimy.
00:43:24
Speaker
They're so grimy.
00:43:26
Speaker
It's true.
00:43:27
Speaker
I can probably count on like one hand, the number of men I've found like attractive as in like, I would like go home with you, we'll date you tomorrow.
00:43:36
Speaker
On one hand this year and still have digits left.
00:43:40
Speaker
I'm not interested in anyone.
00:43:43
Speaker
It's fine.
00:43:44
Speaker
I'm happy and I'm like, this is nice.
00:43:46
Speaker
This is peaceful.
00:43:47
Speaker
My life is good instead of not dealing with any stress and not waking up and having to argue.
00:43:54
Speaker
Also, I don't know if you've noticed, but these kumar guys, I don't know why, they all have this look.
00:44:00
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:44:00
Speaker
They are.
00:44:03
Speaker
It's like the thousand yard stare.
00:44:06
Speaker
Is it?
00:44:06
Speaker
They call it like the thousand yard stare.
00:44:08
Speaker
They look like a zombie.
00:44:09
Speaker
Like it's like the zombie of bad sex or something.
00:44:12
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:44:12
Speaker
It's not a coincidence that many of them can't even get it up.
00:44:15
Speaker
And it's like, you know, maybe pick up a book.
00:44:18
Speaker
and put down the porn for like five seconds.
00:44:20
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:44:21
Speaker
Like, it's just, I don't know.
00:44:23
Speaker
And women date those guys too.
00:44:25
Speaker
Like I've had girlfriends in my past who I'm not really engaged with these kinds of people anymore, but you know, who are like complaining that their boyfriends aren't having sex with them or that they can't come from regular sex or vanilla
Experiences with Men and the Decision to Pause Dating
00:44:39
Speaker
sex.
00:44:39
Speaker
And I'm like, what?
00:44:40
Speaker
Like, why would you
00:44:41
Speaker
be in a relationship with a man who can't get it up for you?
00:44:44
Speaker
What is the point?
00:44:45
Speaker
And like, does wouldn't you just be disgusted by somebody like that?
00:44:48
Speaker
Your partner clearly has a porn addiction.
00:44:51
Speaker
And now they're incapable of getting it up or coming with a regular woman and you're putting up with this still like, it's so sad.
00:45:01
Speaker
And I think you know, what I notice about like, when men are
00:45:05
Speaker
hit on me here, I feel like they expect something to happen really, really quickly.
00:45:12
Speaker
Like I'll just be having a regular conversation with a guy.
00:45:16
Speaker
I mean, this is probably common to a lot of men.
00:45:18
Speaker
Men can't tell the difference between having a conversation and being flirted with, but they'll try to make out with me or they'll put their hand on my leg or they'll put their hand on the waist.
00:45:26
Speaker
And I'm like, I've just been talking to you for half an hour because you're sitting next to me.
00:45:31
Speaker
Like, I'm not going to make out with you.
00:45:33
Speaker
What planet are you living on?
00:45:35
Speaker
But yeah, that article that you referenced or I referenced earlier about my man break, I broke up with someone and, you know, he was abusive.
00:45:44
Speaker
There were other problems also.
00:45:45
Speaker
It's never just one thing, but obviously violence is a no go.
00:45:49
Speaker
And I just decided, you know, like I'm not doing anything with any man for at least a year and then we'll see how it goes.
00:45:58
Speaker
And like, it's not been hard.
00:46:00
Speaker
It's like, I'm just like, like, there's so few men that are appealing to the point of wanting to actually get involved with them.
00:46:11
Speaker
And I'm not going to just have sex with somebody or casual sex to me.
00:46:15
Speaker
I'm like, there's no point.
00:46:16
Speaker
It's not worth it.
00:46:17
Speaker
What do I get out of that?
00:46:18
Speaker
So I have sex one time with somebody and then maybe it's going to be weird when we run into each other in town, or maybe I'm going to accidentally fall in love with him because
00:46:27
Speaker
You know, which is what's happened so many times in the past when I have sex with somebody too soon is that you get attached and then all of a sudden you have a boyfriend and you're like, wait, I didn't do this on purpose.
00:46:38
Speaker
I don't even like this person or this person is shitty.
00:46:41
Speaker
And I ignored or missed their red flags because we were sleeping together.
00:46:45
Speaker
So there was all this oxytocin flowing to my brain and I bonded with them before I even really knew if they were an okay or compatible person.
00:46:56
Speaker
Agreed.
00:46:57
Speaker
I almost feel like there needs to be almost like a call to arms for younger girls.
00:47:03
Speaker
I get, you know, quite uplifted by things like, you know, radical feminism TikTok where you see, I don't know the gender, is it gen, is it people born
Generational Differences in Feminism
00:47:13
Speaker
after 2000?
00:47:13
Speaker
They gen X?
00:47:15
Speaker
or gen z gen z i'm technically gen x so i was born in 1979 and i think that gen x is like the cutoff is 1980 or 79 and i'm not positive what the cutoff for gen z is i think gen z is 95 onwards okay because i'm at the tail end of gen z sorry of a millennial and what's a millennial then what's a millennial
00:47:41
Speaker
A millennial is someone who's from the 19, is the generation right after Gen X or technically Gen Y. Because I mean, Beyonce is technically an elder millennial.
00:47:50
Speaker
So that was like 1981 ish to 1995.
00:47:54
Speaker
Yeah, that would be the millennials.
00:47:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:47:59
Speaker
Basically people who can remember like Y2K and 9-11, like, you know, if you remember the millennium, you are a millennial, I presume.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:12
Speaker
I don't remember 9-11, but never mind.
00:48:14
Speaker
Well, you're Gen Z, so that makes sense.
00:48:20
Speaker
So Gen Z, I just feel like there needs to be almost like a public service announcement about the woes of casual sex that for...
00:48:31
Speaker
And that was one of the things that FDS, we got a lot of backlash for because we would say, don't sleep with a man on the first day, wait, I think it was about 90 days.
00:48:41
Speaker
Personally, I don't think that there needs to be a timeline per se, but definitely don't have sex with men too quickly.
00:48:49
Speaker
We would be accused of being sex negative.
00:48:52
Speaker
Women enjoy having sex too.
00:48:53
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, I agree.
00:48:55
Speaker
But most women want good sex.
00:48:57
Speaker
And the sort of sex that you'll get on a casual night out is unlikely to be very good.
00:49:04
Speaker
And also people just need to be more honest about what is involved in casual sex and the emotional risks as well.
00:49:11
Speaker
Because I remember when I was 18 and when you go into the world and you start interacting with men, you want to believe that everything they're telling you is true.
00:49:20
Speaker
Right.
00:49:20
Speaker
And, you know, casual sex, especially if you start getting into that world, you will realize very quickly that there are men out there who will literally like sell their own mothers and lie under oath just to get sex.
00:49:35
Speaker
And, you know, one of the things that...
00:49:38
Speaker
I'd always like try to live by also is that I feel like a lot of women also, you know, and sometimes I may not realize that they're doing it, but they attach a certain outcome to sex and a really, really good writer from this also called from the baggage reclaim podcast.
00:49:54
Speaker
So Nancy Lou, she made a really, really good comment that was almost like a light bulb, you know, moment for me in terms of,
00:50:02
Speaker
uncovering, you know, just how much of a scam like the term casual sex is.
00:50:07
Speaker
So she said that the term casual sex is a complete misnomer because nobody likes to be treated casually, right?
00:50:14
Speaker
So if you get a woman and a guy on a night out, they go away for casual sex.
00:50:20
Speaker
And he decides to kick her out the minute the sex is done.
00:50:23
Speaker
Technically, as people would argue, you know, you were only casual, so he's done nothing wrong.
00:50:28
Speaker
But actually, that's a really, really poor way to treat somebody, right?
00:50:31
Speaker
So in essence, you know, what you're signing up for is essentially going to be what you're getting, but you're not going to be happy with...
00:50:40
Speaker
the treatment that you're getting, if that makes sense.
00:50:42
Speaker
And I just thought that is such a good point because people don't like to be treated casually.
00:50:47
Speaker
Like, and I would never like in the BDSM community, I didn't, I didn't end up sleeping with anybody, but you know, let's say I was talking to a guy and, you know, we had like an online scene or something.
00:50:58
Speaker
The minute I was like, okay, fine, I'm going now.
00:51:00
Speaker
They would get really upset.
00:51:01
Speaker
And I was like, but it was just a casual, like, it was just a casual play thing.
00:51:05
Speaker
Like I didn't want anything serious.
00:51:07
Speaker
And they would get really, really upset for some reason.
00:51:10
Speaker
And I didn't mean to break, you know, to hurt their feelings, but I was under the impression that it was just a casual thing.
00:51:17
Speaker
And they were under the impression, you know, that it was as well.
00:51:20
Speaker
That was what we'd agreed to, just be casual play partners, just something online that we can just have fun with.
00:51:25
Speaker
But I noticed that a lot of them, that they would get quite upset if I was just like, okay, that's fine.
00:51:30
Speaker
You've been dismissed.
00:51:31
Speaker
You're no longer my dom now.
00:51:32
Speaker
Goodbye.
00:51:33
Speaker
And I just shut my laptop.
00:51:36
Speaker
And I mean, that's the thing, like who volunteers for their own dehumanization?
00:51:40
Speaker
Who volunteers to be treated like shit?
00:51:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:44
Speaker
And I mean, like, it's still on their terms because it's casual, but it's on their terms.
00:51:49
Speaker
At the end of the day, like women don't really get that much from sex with men.
00:51:52
Speaker
Like we don't even get orgasms.
00:51:54
Speaker
Very few of us have, you know, sexually satisfying lives with men because men are incredibly poor lovers.
00:51:59
Speaker
So like, what are we gaining out of this equation except an STD and maybe possible trauma?
00:52:04
Speaker
You know, for a lot of them, they're going to walk away with a lot more than we will so that the exchange is always uneven unless they actually make the effort to make sure that we're sexually fulfilled as well.
00:52:14
Speaker
And that just doesn't happen that often.
00:52:16
Speaker
Well, and you know, it's a lot of it is about sort of foresight because I get, you know, I have had a lot of casual sex and I get like, you know, when I was younger, being in the moment and being into somebody and being turned on and wanting to hook up with them.
00:52:32
Speaker
But it really is.
00:52:33
Speaker
And this is not, this has become an unpopular thing to say, but it's like, well, think about the future and think about how you're going to feel down the line.
00:52:42
Speaker
And, you
00:52:43
Speaker
You know, it's not having sex with a man right away is such a good way to test whether or not they actually give a shit.
00:52:51
Speaker
Because if they don't give a shit and you don't sleep with them, then you probably won't hear from them again and they'll move on to the next person who will have sex with them.
00:53:00
Speaker
But if you make somebody wait, and you make them try and you make them take you out on dates and yeah, make an effort and treat you well, then I mean, first of all, you can get to know them and you can decide if you actually like them or not.
00:53:13
Speaker
And if they're worthy of you, but also you can test and see if they're really going to put any energy into you don't like you don't want to be with somebody who doesn't give a shit if they're sleeping with you, or you could be somebody else, you don't want to be interchangeable.
00:53:27
Speaker
Precisely.
00:53:28
Speaker
Exactly.
00:53:29
Speaker
And I think it almost defeats the purpose of essentially, you know, and this is going to be quite an unpopular opinion again, but I will say it, but sex is supposed to be a bonding activity at its core.
00:53:44
Speaker
Or one of the purposes besides procreation, but it's also supposed to be a bonding activity.
00:53:48
Speaker
Well, we're both...
00:53:49
Speaker
That's what we're built for.
00:53:50
Speaker
We're built, and women in particular, we're built to bond with the men that we sleep with and people are built to bond together so that they can stick around and have a baby together.
00:53:59
Speaker
You know, that's the point.
00:54:01
Speaker
I'm not saying that has to be the only point of having sex, but that's how we've evolved.
00:54:05
Speaker
Yeah, and it's not an insignificant point either.
00:54:08
Speaker
And I just think it's so damaging and disingenuous when we try to tell people that, you know, that doesn't matter at all, you know, that you can just basically turn it off.
00:54:19
Speaker
Because again, the promiscuous people that I've come across,
00:54:22
Speaker
It isn't so much that they actually want to have sex with loads of people.
00:54:26
Speaker
The impression I get is that they are looking for something and they use sex as a means to an end to get what they're looking for.
00:54:33
Speaker
So whether that is usually if they're women, if they're looking for validation or if it's a guy, they're looking to just, you know, not feel alone or to feel desired because especially nowadays, a lot of men put a lot of stock on how much casual sex they can get because they want to know that they're desired by women.
00:54:50
Speaker
And that's, you know, that's the way they can get it.
00:54:52
Speaker
But actually what these people are probably looking for is to feel valued.
00:54:57
Speaker
And it's easy, you know, you, you know, a man can desire you, but not value you that happens quite often.
00:55:05
Speaker
And I feel like women understanding the distinction between being desired and being valued by a man is also going to go a long way into them understanding the dangers of casual sex, because a lot of these men, they might desire the woman in the moment, but they don't really value her.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah, and the stress of the like sort of after effects of going along with casual sex and like, you know, pretending or maybe feeling in the moment like, oh, yeah, I'm fine with this.
00:55:37
Speaker
This is fine.
00:55:37
Speaker
But then being neglected or ignored or, you know, he doesn't call you back or, you know, he doesn't treat you with respect or value, you know, is all that stress and all of those bad feelings worth having casual sex
Emotional Impact of Casual Sex and Self-Worth
00:55:52
Speaker
one night?
00:55:52
Speaker
Of course not.
00:55:53
Speaker
But I think there's a lot of women who are in denial as well, because I meet a lot of women who are like, no, I could do it.
00:55:58
Speaker
I could, you know, have sex without feelings and I wouldn't get attached and stuff.
00:56:02
Speaker
And I don't know, to me, it just sounds like cool.
00:56:04
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, you're a human person.
00:56:07
Speaker
You may not think that you'll be affected by it.
00:56:09
Speaker
But if you're sleeping with the same one, same person, like consistently over a period of time, it's like it's a bonding hormone, like oxytocin is released, like this is a biological reality.
00:56:19
Speaker
You know, the more time you spend with this person,
00:56:21
Speaker
the more time that you're spending having these intimate relations with them,
00:56:25
Speaker
you're going to develop feelings at some point that you can't ignore.
00:56:29
Speaker
So you just live in this perpetual state of denial where you think like, oh yeah, no, I'm never going to develop feelings.
00:56:35
Speaker
I'm like, I'm totally okay with like this weird situationship where he doesn't acknowledge me and pretends like I don't exist when we're not sleeping together.
00:56:41
Speaker
And like, you're just hurting yourself at the end of it.
00:56:44
Speaker
But I mean, a lot of women were like, no, I could do it too.
00:56:46
Speaker
I could get away with it too.
00:56:47
Speaker
And I don't know if it's just like this, again, like this false empowerment thing where they just think that it sounds empowering to say that.
00:56:54
Speaker
that they could do it the same way a man can and like it wouldn't affect them.
00:56:57
Speaker
Like they always happen to be the women who are perpetually chasing after one guy to another.
00:57:02
Speaker
You know, it's like a codependent thing as well.
00:57:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:05
Speaker
And I've done that, you know, I've been in those situations.
00:57:09
Speaker
And so I've learned the hard way, right.
00:57:12
Speaker
And so I think that's sort of why I feel like I'm trying to tell younger women, you know, don't buy into this and don't, don't do it, because it's just a waste of time that leads to hurt, you know, it's torturous to go into a relationship with a man that's not really a relationship, and he can sort of
00:57:34
Speaker
pick you when he wants or discard you when he doesn't want and he gets what he wants and then doesn't have to give you any more and you're just feeling stressed out or worried or you know wanting more and never get like it really is emotionally
00:57:49
Speaker
It's torturous.
00:57:50
Speaker
And I think that if women, first of all, better understood how their own bodies worked and understood about that bonding chemical and the fact that it's completely natural and inevitable that if you sleep with the same person more than once, then you're going to start to develop feelings for them.
00:58:05
Speaker
You can't not.
00:58:07
Speaker
You're a human being.
00:58:08
Speaker
But also, you deserve to be picked and treated as valuable, specific human being that this person actually wants to be around and not just, oh, you could be anyone or if I feel like it right now or if this is convenient for me.
00:58:26
Speaker
And yeah, so much of this is just a big lie that's been told to us that, yeah, we can have sex without feelings and that it's desirable to have sex without feelings.
00:58:34
Speaker
And neither of those things are true.
00:58:37
Speaker
Agreed.
00:58:37
Speaker
And so I guess in your opinion, what would you say, I suppose, if you could go back to your 18 year old self and give your 18 year old self advice on how to not get caught up in hookup culture?
00:58:54
Speaker
What would you tell your 18 year old self?
00:58:57
Speaker
I mean, first of all, I think that when I was doing that, it was because I was insecure and I didn't really value myself and I didn't feel like I was worthy of that kind of effort.
00:59:09
Speaker
I don't think that I knew that at the time.
00:59:12
Speaker
But, you know, when we talk about like you see a woman who's really promiscuous or like, you know, posting thoughty photos all over Instagram or whatever, my first thought is like you, oh, you're really insecure.
00:59:27
Speaker
And you probably have like trauma in your history and you're not a very mentally healthy person.
00:59:36
Speaker
That's like sort of desperate behavior.
00:59:38
Speaker
You know, if you're a confident woman who likes yourself, I don't think you really need to be putting photos of your ass all over the Internet so you can get attention from strangers.
00:59:46
Speaker
But I think I would first of all have explained to myself that you can't have casual sex and that sex isn't casual.
00:59:55
Speaker
You know, sex is not casual for women.
00:59:58
Speaker
First of all, it can be dangerous.
01:00:00
Speaker
Obviously, you can get pregnant or get an STD.
01:00:03
Speaker
But also, you know, sex is not emotionally casual, your body is not separate from your mind.
01:00:11
Speaker
it's worthwhile to wait a minute, even if it's, you know, I don't think that it was necessarily always about a man pressuring me to have sex.
01:00:22
Speaker
Often I wanted it too, but I don't think I really thought about the reasons why.
01:00:25
Speaker
And I think a lot of those reasons were validation because I had gotten this message that women who had casual sex and could get a lot of guys were, you know, empowered and players or whatever.
01:00:36
Speaker
It was some form of, it felt powerful to me.
01:00:39
Speaker
Because I don't think I knew how to access real power at the time.
01:00:47
Speaker
And yeah, I think better understanding of our bodies and how that bonding works.
01:00:51
Speaker
And also just, you know, like waiting for something is in general a good thing.
01:00:58
Speaker
You don't need immediate gratification.
01:01:00
Speaker
And usually the things that you get via immediate gratification aren't good for you.
01:01:06
Speaker
whether that's junk food or sex or whatever, you know, drug you're taking so that you can relax if you're feeling anxiety instead of trying to work through it or whatever that is.
01:01:18
Speaker
You know, good things are worth the wait, including health and relationships.
01:01:23
Speaker
But, you know, the consequences of casual sex are wide ranging, including just things like feeling hurt and feeling disrespected, which are
01:01:35
Speaker
really like kind of harsh and long lasting feelings for young women.
01:01:42
Speaker
And you can really avoid that by just making clear choices and by not having sex right away and forcing somebody to try and to get to know them and deciding whether or not you like them and whether or not they're a good person.
01:01:55
Speaker
And again, you know, you're not going to catch
01:01:58
Speaker
most of those red flags when you're meeting somebody at a bar and you're both drunk.
01:02:05
Speaker
Obviously, you know, this guy could be abusive.
01:02:08
Speaker
He could be a liar.
01:02:09
Speaker
He could be a narcissist.
01:02:11
Speaker
He could be, you know, a loser.
01:02:14
Speaker
You have no idea.
01:02:16
Speaker
So, and you don't want to get caught up with somebody shitty and waste years of your life on that.
01:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, true.
01:02:22
Speaker
And it's like guys are sometimes the nicest to you when they haven't had sex with you yet and they think there's a chance that they will have sex with you.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
01:02:34
Speaker
I mean, yeah, men will, will, will do their very best early on.
01:02:39
Speaker
I mean, men, I've, I've been in relationships with guys where I'm like, Oh my God, you fully just completely lied to me early on.
01:02:48
Speaker
Like this whole story of who you are and what you are and what you do.
01:02:53
Speaker
That was full bullshit.
01:02:55
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:56
Speaker
because you were trying to have sex with me.
01:02:58
Speaker
And now that I know you, and I know the truth, I'm like, Jesus Christ, because I don't behave in that way.
01:03:04
Speaker
So you don't assume that other people do that.
01:03:06
Speaker
Like, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
01:03:08
Speaker
I don't know that it's good to walk around in the world thinking everyone's lying to you all the time.
01:03:12
Speaker
But you know, when I meet somebody, I'm presenting myself as myself.
01:03:17
Speaker
I'm not inventing lies about who I am and what I do for work and you know what my life has been.
01:03:24
Speaker
But a lot of men do do that.
01:03:26
Speaker
And it's just, it's absolute insanity.
01:03:28
Speaker
And this is also why, like, obviously, you know, waiting to have sex, it doesn't necessarily safeguard against, you know, men like this, unfortunately, on its own, which is why we'd also recommend just, you know, generally vetting the guy, because again, thanks to pornography,
01:03:45
Speaker
And thanks to the growing entitlement of, you know, men to women's bodies, including having sex with them, you know, the sorts of men who were just out for sex are becoming easier and easier to spot because they can never really help themselves.
01:03:59
Speaker
Like when I was online dating, it would literally be, we'd just be talking about, I don't know, I'd be having dinner.
01:04:05
Speaker
And then they'd be like, oh, dick pic.
01:04:06
Speaker
And you're like, oh my God, like they literally can't help themselves.
01:04:10
Speaker
But at the same time, as we touched on, it's also about the emotional impact as well.
01:04:14
Speaker
I do feel like if you find out that a guy is a scrote and you haven't slept with him yet, it's a lot less painful than if you've slept with him and he turns out to be a scrote.
01:04:23
Speaker
And you get a lot of pushback.
01:04:25
Speaker
You get a lot of pushback from women as well, because there's some women who are like, well, well, I met my boyfriend and I slept with him right away and we're still together.
01:04:33
Speaker
And it's like, okay, good for you, first of all.
01:04:35
Speaker
But like, secondly, you know, we suggest that as a vetting strategy because it weeds away the ones that are actually sinister and malicious or the ones that just want to sleep with you.
01:04:46
Speaker
Sure, your boyfriend, who's a very nice guy, who we definitely believe is a very nice guy, but...
01:04:53
Speaker
Might be wink, wink.
01:04:56
Speaker
We're all so envious of your great boyfriend.
01:05:01
Speaker
We are.
01:05:02
Speaker
And I mean, if I'm going to play along with their logic for a minute, right?
01:05:06
Speaker
Like if you slept with your boyfriend on the first date or the 50th date, it would have made no difference at all.
01:05:10
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, that person is a good person.
01:05:11
Speaker
So it would have made no difference to them when you gave them access to your body, right?
01:05:17
Speaker
But with a guy who's only in it for sex, the earlier you sleep with him, that's it.
01:05:23
Speaker
So if you attach to him at all,
01:05:25
Speaker
That's it for you.
01:05:26
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:05:26
Speaker
Because if his entire objective is just getting sex from you, then the second he sleeps with you, he has nothing else to get from you.
01:05:32
Speaker
And that's it.
01:05:33
Speaker
And I've been in that position before where like, you know, we had like these stupid rules, like I'd like the three date rule where you're not supposed to sleep with them until the third date and stuff.
01:05:40
Speaker
And I used to feel so much pressure, like when the third date would come around because I didn't want to sleep with them.
01:05:45
Speaker
But I felt like they thought that was like an expectation.
01:05:48
Speaker
So I'd have to like,
01:05:50
Speaker
you know, swap them around like they were an annoying mosquito, like just try to like get away from them because I just didn't want to do it.
01:05:57
Speaker
I felt like I was being pressured to do it.
01:05:59
Speaker
And like all of these messages we get from society and media, they're like, they just infiltrate your mind and they just give you so much pressure to perform in a way that you don't want to perform.
01:06:07
Speaker
And then you find these idiot outliers who are like, well, my boyfriend, Tony, he slept with me after a bus ride and we're moving together for like five years.
01:06:16
Speaker
Most of those people are broken up by now, but they'll still perpetuate the dumb bullshit and try to convince you that this is a viable strategy.
01:06:23
Speaker
And it's like, no, we're not saying this in the off chance we meet someone great.
01:06:26
Speaker
We're saying this in the off chance we meet someone sinister.
01:06:29
Speaker
Why is that so hard to understand?
01:06:32
Speaker
And then the follow up question to that should always be, yeah, but did he make you come that first night though?
01:06:36
Speaker
The answer is probably no.
01:06:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:41
Speaker
Was it the best sex you ever had?
01:06:44
Speaker
you know, they'll lie.
01:06:45
Speaker
They'll just say, yes, he was so amazing.
01:06:47
Speaker
Oh my God.
01:06:47
Speaker
He was the Marlon Brando of sexual dynamics.
01:06:50
Speaker
Like, you know.
01:06:53
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:53
Speaker
I mean, and one of the things that I was trying to relay in that piece, you know, one of my lessons from my man break or whatever was that, you know, you'd be surprised at how many men you lose interest in if you wait a little, you know, like if you don't hook up with them right away.
01:07:10
Speaker
You don't even have to wait very long.
01:07:11
Speaker
It's like maybe two weeks, some of them.
01:07:14
Speaker
Yeah, and you're like, oh, I don't like this guy.
01:07:16
Speaker
But if you hook up with him, then you bond with him, and then you end up liking somebody that you don't really like.
01:07:22
Speaker
And that can be just, you know, it's hard to break up with somebody once you're bonded.
01:07:26
Speaker
It feels sad, and you don't want to, and you feel like there's something invested.
01:07:29
Speaker
And in worst case scenario, you're in a relationship with an abusive man, and that's incredibly dangerous, and it's hard to leave abusive situations.
Personal Stories of Abuse and the Importance of Caution
01:07:38
Speaker
You know, it's really dangerous, right?
01:07:41
Speaker
to try to leave and it's hard to extra extricate yourself.
01:07:45
Speaker
And, you know, with abusive men so often they don't let go, you know, like there's, I, there's a man that I was sort of accidentally involved with back in my,
01:07:57
Speaker
20s who is abusive and I escaped from and he still follows me around the internet and like tries to comment on my shit like still this is oh my god how many years like almost 20 years later and you know these guys are crazy and then you've got this attachment to a horrible dangerous man like think about it in those terms like you guys say you know like it's not about oh you might get a good one it's like
01:08:24
Speaker
No, it's so that you can weed out the bad and dangerous ones and you're not stuck in this long, drawn out, horrible situation of trying to escape a violent man or a crazy man or, you know, an otherwise dangerous man.
01:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
01:08:41
Speaker
So yeah, let us know what you think about this episode and casual sex.
01:08:47
Speaker
If you would like to read more from Megan, you can find her at substack at megan.murphy.ca.
01:08:56
Speaker
Is that correct?
01:08:57
Speaker
Oh, sorry.
01:08:57
Speaker
No, meganmurphy.ca..ca.
01:08:59
Speaker
So check out her substack if you'd like to hear more from Megan.
01:09:03
Speaker
But thank you so much for coming on, Megan.
01:09:05
Speaker
We really, really enjoyed chatting to you about this topic.
01:09:09
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
01:09:11
Speaker
It was so great to talk with you guys.
01:09:13
Speaker
I'm so glad that we could connect.
01:09:15
Speaker
And yeah, I love what the messages that you're relaying to young women that they really, really need to hear.
01:09:22
Speaker
The hard truths are so important.
01:09:25
Speaker
And it's there's few places that they hear them, I think.
01:09:28
Speaker
So I appreciate what you guys are doing.
01:09:30
Speaker
And what you just said just sort of reminded me of when you said that, you know, you weren't nice and that
01:09:36
Speaker
I actually think that being nice as a woman is a disadvantage.
01:09:39
Speaker
I think there's a difference between being nice and being kind.
01:09:42
Speaker
Like I am a kind person.
01:09:45
Speaker
I may not necessarily be nice because I feel like being nice is often used as a social strategy to avoid the difficult conversations that need to be had.
01:09:56
Speaker
And case in point, the trans conversation and the case in point, the conversation we've just had around people's sexual choices and the proliferation of casual sex.
01:10:06
Speaker
I feel like a lot more women would benefit quite a lot if they focus less on being nice and focused, you know, more essentially on just basically saying what needs to be said, even if, you know, people don't like it.
01:10:21
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
01:10:22
Speaker
I agree.
01:10:23
Speaker
So, so yeah, down with being nice is what I'd say.
01:10:29
Speaker
Down with being nice.
01:10:30
Speaker
Fuck being nice.
01:10:31
Speaker
Don't do it.
01:10:32
Speaker
No, it's not an important quality.
01:10:36
Speaker
No, it's not.
01:10:37
Speaker
There's a time and place to just be polite.
01:10:38
Speaker
And this is not one of those situations.
01:10:40
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:10:41
Speaker
This is one of those situations where we have to fight ruthlessly for what we want, because the alternative is almost too scary to imagine.
01:10:49
Speaker
Great.
01:10:49
Speaker
Definitely.
01:10:50
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:51
Speaker
Well, thanks again.
01:10:52
Speaker
It was so great to talk with you all.
01:10:54
Speaker
It was great to meet you sort of virtually, I suppose.
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much, Megan.
01:11:00
Speaker
And thanks for listening, queens.
01:11:03
Speaker
And for all you scrotes out there, we are done with your shitty sex.
01:11:08
Speaker
So you can die mad.
01:11:09
Speaker
Die mad.