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The Pros And Cons of Marriage
37 Plays2 years ago
Savannah's very married sister weighs the benefits and drawbacks of marriage. [NOTE: Sorry about the sound quality in parts. Not sure what happened].
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Topic: Marriage Pros and Cons
00:00:05
Speaker
What's up queens?
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Ru.
00:00:12
Speaker
And I'm Savannah.
00:00:14
Speaker
And back by popular demand, it is Lara, my sister.
00:00:19
Speaker
What's up queens?
00:00:22
Speaker
There is a reason why she's back, by the way.
00:00:24
Speaker
This is not just like a nephew baby just show up and just be on the podcast.
00:00:29
Speaker
Because today we are going to be talking about marriage, specifically the pros and cons of marriage.
00:00:36
Speaker
We know that marriage is a goal for many women who are listening to FDS.
00:00:41
Speaker
So we wanted to invite somebody who's been married for quite some time now.
00:00:45
Speaker
to give their view on just how to approach marriage, how to hopefully have a high value marriage and some of the pros and cons of marriage if you happen to be on the fence.
00:00:56
Speaker
Because FDS, we always encourage women to really, really think about first and foremost, what is in their best interest as a woman.
00:01:05
Speaker
And for some women, marriage may not be in your best interest.
Lara's Perspective on Marriage and Values
00:01:10
Speaker
So to start off with,
00:01:12
Speaker
Lara, you've obviously been married for quite some time now.
00:01:15
Speaker
Can you almost give us an intro into marriage in terms of what were the markers that you were looking for when you were deciding who to marry to start with?
00:01:27
Speaker
When I decided that marriage was something that I wanted, I grew up in that whole Disney view, you know, sort of thrown in there with some like
00:01:36
Speaker
Nigerian culture and church culture as well so my view on marriage has changed as I've got into headed into my 20s and entered my relationship which is now the one that I'm you know I'm now married in um it changed quite a lot and for me the number one thing was like trust like I need to be able to trust you implicitly I was never that girlfriend or certainly didn't want to be that wife who
00:01:59
Speaker
had to know what was in, had to go through your phone.
00:02:02
Speaker
Or if you said that you wanted to go to Vegas with the boys, I want to be like, cool, you can do that.
00:02:07
Speaker
And not me not thinking, but something might happen.
00:02:10
Speaker
I need to be able to trust you.
00:02:11
Speaker
I need to be able to trust that you are who you say you are, that you are, you show up to be who you say you want to be and that you understand that marriage is a commitment and what that commitment means and what it demands from you.
00:02:23
Speaker
Because I feel like a lot of guys, they want, yeah, marriage is commitment, but the commitment is always on the other person, not so much them.
00:02:29
Speaker
And, you know, dating around taught me that quite quickly.
00:02:31
Speaker
There's a very, very long list of requirements that guys have in terms of what they want from a wife.
00:02:37
Speaker
What they are supposed to be as a husband, it's like one thing.
00:02:41
Speaker
Be a provider.
00:02:42
Speaker
And a lot of guys don't even want to do that anymore.
00:02:45
Speaker
or be a CEO of the relationship, as they always have to say.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, like, it's like, no.
00:02:50
Speaker
So that was quite important to me.
00:02:52
Speaker
Like, shared faith was important to me.
00:02:55
Speaker
You know, just respecting and understanding what it is like for me or for women and to being respectful of women and the plight of women.
00:03:02
Speaker
That was always important to me because, you know, even being married to a decent guy is not going to stop the things that being a woman can make you fall into.
00:03:13
Speaker
And you need your partner, for me, my husband, to be able to understand that and do as much as he can to mitigate that and work as a team, especially if you're going to bring kids into it, because they need to be equipped on how to do it for, you know, people around them and their future partners as well.
00:03:29
Speaker
So those were quite important markers for me.
00:03:31
Speaker
You had to have a job and be able to make money and be able to make more money if we needed to be able to do that.
00:03:37
Speaker
and have the skills to be able to, you know, continuously work on your personal development.
00:03:42
Speaker
Like I don't want to date the man that I met, you know, when we, when I first met him is not the man that he is now.
00:03:49
Speaker
And that's a good thing.
00:03:51
Speaker
So yeah, in a nutshell, those were the sorts of things that I was looking for and made me consider marriage.
00:03:56
Speaker
That's what I had to take into a marriage.
Growth and Change in Marriage
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's really important when you say that about almost, you know, going into a marriage, expecting some amount of change and adaptation as well.
00:04:10
Speaker
And that not necessarily being a bad thing.
00:04:13
Speaker
If you can change and grow almost together and not apart as well.
00:04:17
Speaker
And yeah, sorry, but to also add to that, but like also to give room for growth, even if it means like, you know, there's like wallflowers, but you know how that they sort of intertwine with each other, not quite into each other, but alongside each other.
00:04:31
Speaker
A really close friend of mine describes like a marriage or like that of just,
00:04:36
Speaker
giving each other enough room to grow, you know, always coming back to each other.
00:04:40
Speaker
Because I suppose, I guess what I'm saying is also space.
00:04:43
Speaker
It's really, really easy to get caught up in like marriage being this like interconnectedness and to become one and, you know, you're becoming codependent.
00:04:52
Speaker
And actually, sometimes you need to give each other space, like to, you know, to have time away, to do things that you need to do, space to grow, space to fuck up, you know, space to, if this is what you want, you need all of those things as well.
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
And so, like, I guess, you know, what would you say are the pros of marriage that I suppose go beyond like the general discourse of companionship and, you know, the stuff that we see, like, you know, what are some of the pros that are perhaps a bit more hidden that come with marriage?
Marriage as a Reflective Mirror
00:05:27
Speaker
I would say, obviously, as you said, you've got the companionship, mutual support, that kind of stuff.
00:05:32
Speaker
I kind of see marriage as like a HD OLED 10K, if that's a thing, type camera on your relationship and you as individuals.
00:05:42
Speaker
This is a pro, even though it sometimes gets very ugly because that's what I think it brings out.
00:05:47
Speaker
Whatever is in your relationship, I think marriage will just bring it out to the surface.
00:05:51
Speaker
It's almost like you're making a shortbread.
00:05:54
Speaker
I don't know if you're familiar with shortbread.
00:05:57
Speaker
Are you familiar with shortbread?
00:06:00
Speaker
America's biscuits are craps.
00:06:01
Speaker
So probably not.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:06:03
Speaker
I love shortbread.
00:06:04
Speaker
Art biscuits are not crap.
00:06:08
Speaker
Art biscuits are the best.
00:06:10
Speaker
They're not like scones.
00:06:12
Speaker
They're American style buttermilk, like flaky biscuits.
00:06:15
Speaker
So it's not like a scone.
00:06:17
Speaker
I'm just saying, Ro, I had an aunt who lived in America and anytime I went to go and visit her, like I'd have a 22K luggage and 20kg would be of biscuits because she hated the biscuits there.
00:06:27
Speaker
That's what I'm just saying.
00:06:28
Speaker
Where is she going?
00:06:29
Speaker
What city?
00:06:30
Speaker
Because I'm like, there's no way you hate American biscuits.
00:06:33
Speaker
British confectionery.
00:06:34
Speaker
Like you can't really beat it.
00:06:36
Speaker
Huh?
00:06:37
Speaker
Yes.
00:06:38
Speaker
Maybe the Danish can.
00:06:40
Speaker
We don't do sweet biscuits.
00:06:41
Speaker
We do savory biscuits.
00:06:42
Speaker
So maybe that's the difference.
00:06:44
Speaker
That's it.
00:06:44
Speaker
That's the problem.
00:06:45
Speaker
Therein lies the problem.
00:06:46
Speaker
You don't use sweet biscuits.
00:06:48
Speaker
So what we call sweet biscuits are like scones here.
00:06:51
Speaker
They're called scones here, but they're like, they're not popular.
00:06:54
Speaker
Like American biscuits are like flaky buttermilk.
00:06:58
Speaker
Have you ever seen like the Pillsbury guy?
00:07:00
Speaker
So like, well, you don't use Pillsbury because that's like passe.
00:07:03
Speaker
Like everybody's mama got their own biscuit recipe, but like, it's so good.
00:07:07
Speaker
It's like savory buttery and you put like sausage or eggs or gravy on it.
00:07:12
Speaker
That does sound quite nice.
00:07:13
Speaker
That does sound nice, to be fair.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:07:16
Speaker
So if you eat it that way, it's really good.
00:07:19
Speaker
But yeah, if you're expecting a European-style scone, then no, it's not anywhere near the same.
00:07:24
Speaker
Oh, right, okay.
00:07:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:07:25
Speaker
You know, when you're making like a biscuit, I don't know, or maybe a cookie, that's what it would be.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, a cookie.
00:07:31
Speaker
A cookie, yeah.
00:07:32
Speaker
Cookies are like the unleavened, flat round, like chocolate chip stuff.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, when you're making the dough sometimes, when you make the dough and you're like, you know, you're cross crumbling it in, you know, your, what do they call it?
00:07:43
Speaker
The rubbing in mix method when you're making the dough and then you shake it and then all the bits come to the surface.
00:07:49
Speaker
That's kind of a very roundabout, long story way of explaining what marriage does to a relationship.
00:07:54
Speaker
LAUGHTER
00:07:56
Speaker
That's a good analogy.
00:07:57
Speaker
Good analogy.
00:07:58
Speaker
All the good, the bad, the ugly literally to the top.
00:08:01
Speaker
And it's like HD in your face.
00:08:03
Speaker
You can't deny it.
00:08:04
Speaker
And sometimes it gets when it's good.
00:08:06
Speaker
It's great.
00:08:06
Speaker
But, you know, it really can bring out your ugly.
00:08:08
Speaker
And I think it's a good thing because then you can confront it and deal with it, which is why I think that whole commitment to your own personal development is so key so that you can recognize that and be like, OK, I need to work on that.
00:08:19
Speaker
We need to work on that.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I think that's a good thing, because even when no matter what happens to your relationship after that,
00:08:25
Speaker
you're able to use marriage to make you a better person, which can only be a good thing.
00:08:30
Speaker
I think a lot of the pros and cons, I feel like are like to, I don't know the same, was it two sides of the same coin?
00:08:38
Speaker
So they work as pros and cons, depending on how you look at things.
00:08:42
Speaker
So for example, a lot of people get together,
00:08:45
Speaker
myself and Steven, we're very different personalities.
00:08:48
Speaker
And that's great because, you know, it means that you can be yourself and it means that you can, and that someone just gets you.
00:08:54
Speaker
And it makes that whole transition from having to be overly articulate and, you know, have to really overly verbalize what exactly you need all of the time.
00:09:03
Speaker
And it makes that transition to like nonverbal communication.
00:09:07
Speaker
And you just know what that person needs before they've said it a lot easier.
00:09:12
Speaker
Because I suppose you just sort of use your strengths and weaknesses to sort of balance out each other.
00:09:17
Speaker
Like that often works quite well.
00:09:19
Speaker
And even just the division of the house labor, the things that I absolutely loathe doing in the house, Stephen is happy to do them.
00:09:26
Speaker
Like I just can't stand
Challenges in Long-term Marriages
00:09:29
Speaker
cleaning the bath.
00:09:30
Speaker
Like I've never done it since we've been married.
00:09:33
Speaker
He doesn't.
00:09:33
Speaker
And he seems to get something out of it.
00:09:35
Speaker
It's just great.
00:09:36
Speaker
So stuff like that is also really good.
00:09:40
Speaker
So I'd say that.
00:09:41
Speaker
I think human beings with creature habit, and I think it can bring like a sense of routine.
00:09:49
Speaker
And for someone like me,
00:09:51
Speaker
That has been quite a good thing to have that because I'm very impulsive and I can be all over the place.
00:09:56
Speaker
And I am still all over the place, but I have like a base off the back of my marriage knowing that I have to, there's somebody else that I have to think about.
00:10:04
Speaker
So I have to structure, I do actually have to structure my day.
00:10:07
Speaker
And that's also helped me in ways as difficult as it is to be that way.
00:10:12
Speaker
So that whole like just sort of ongoing developing, I'd say that was a pro too.
00:10:18
Speaker
I'd say also from the outside looking in, I know people talk about that commitment between two people, but it also does take your relationship in the eyes of others as well, almost to the next level.
00:10:32
Speaker
I remember when you and Stephen weren't married when you were just dating.
00:10:37
Speaker
If, say, I wanted to invite him anywhere, it would just be like, oh, ask Stephen as well.
00:10:43
Speaker
But after you were married, it was just assumed that both of you would come together.
00:10:48
Speaker
You know, I didn't have to send a separate invite because you were seen by everybody else as a unit and not just as boyfriend and girlfriend.
00:10:57
Speaker
So I think from the outside looking in, that was quite, I guess, as a pro as well.
00:11:02
Speaker
It's one less text to send.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:04
Speaker
but yeah and so in terms of like because obviously you know that there's like the marriage discourse that women are gonna die alone that women should just get married to any you know riffraff to avoid being surrounded by cats i guess is that like a pro that i guess that that level of
00:11:23
Speaker
that almost fear I guess is that I don't want to say is that a reason to get married but is that something to consider as an actual pro of marriage is that yeah actually I won't die alone because I know Rowan I've spoken about this but it'll be good to get your um possibly by proxy Stephen's perspective on if you ever considered or had the conversation about let's get married so none of us die alone sort of thing yeah
00:11:47
Speaker
I don't think it's a pro, no.
00:11:49
Speaker
I think, you know, I think Stephen's personality is, I think he'd be quite happy to be left alone.
00:11:57
Speaker
And I think it's quite like me to leave him alone sometimes.
00:11:59
Speaker
I'm always like in his space and you know what he's like, he's like a hermit.
00:12:02
Speaker
He's like an amadillo, the one that, you know, just like jumps into the shell.
00:12:06
Speaker
They don't want to interact with people.
00:12:10
Speaker
That is his spirit animal.
00:12:11
Speaker
He came as an amadillo before this life and he will return to an amadillo after this life.
00:12:17
Speaker
The reason why I say like, I remember when I first got married, I was just like, and you know, you think about it, it's like, wow, this is for the rest of my life.
00:12:23
Speaker
First of all, like I don't have a crystal ball.
00:12:25
Speaker
You don't know what happens.
00:12:27
Speaker
I just don't think, you know, no matter how great our relationship has been or how good I feel about the relationship I'm
00:12:33
Speaker
I guess maybe just like quietly cautious that like people change and, you know, it's never game, set, match.
00:12:39
Speaker
That's it.
00:12:39
Speaker
You know, I hope that we last the distance, but that's not a reason to get married because so that you don't die alone.
00:12:44
Speaker
I think many people are married and they stay married until their old age, but they very much die alone within that.
00:12:50
Speaker
There are single people in marriages who, yeah, they're married, but,
00:12:54
Speaker
We're born alone.
00:12:55
Speaker
We die alone.
00:12:56
Speaker
Just accept it.
00:12:57
Speaker
You know, and that's the thing, like, because it was like, I remember those first few weeks, I was like, oh, I was on this, like, you know, we've married high.
00:13:03
Speaker
And I was like, and to think it's going to end in tragedy.
00:13:07
Speaker
Like one of us are going to go.
00:13:09
Speaker
It's all going to end in tears.
00:13:10
Speaker
Either way, even if you have a successful marriage, like I had a professor who, man, so okay, sorry not to get like real sad depression hours, but him and his wife were together for like 40, 50 years.
00:13:22
Speaker
He was in his 80s, right?
00:13:24
Speaker
And so she died maybe like a year or two before I took his class.
00:13:29
Speaker
And like at the end of the class, he would basically talk about his like, because he spent a long career before he retired to become a professor.
00:13:35
Speaker
So he would talk about his career adventures, etc.
00:13:37
Speaker
And he would always talk about his wife, like all the countries they moved to, all the different experiences they had, they were able to do because of their profession.
00:13:45
Speaker
And then he had like a slideshow of his wife, and he would literally start crying at like the end of it.
00:13:49
Speaker
And I just remember like feeling so sad because
00:13:51
Speaker
you could have the most wonderful, fulfilling marriage that lasted decades.
00:13:55
Speaker
And he clearly was still in love with his wife, like, and her passing really affected him.
00:13:59
Speaker
And she died, you know, I think she died of cancer.
00:14:01
Speaker
And so he was older.
00:14:03
Speaker
But, you know, that could happen, right?
00:14:04
Speaker
So it's like, you almost just have to be prepared for the idea that it may not last.
00:14:08
Speaker
And it may not because of be for something bad, it might just be for something, you know, like active nature, act of God that sometimes happens.
00:14:15
Speaker
So
00:14:15
Speaker
I don't know.
00:14:16
Speaker
I think you just have to accept the inevitability of death and accept it that everyone's path to death is unique to them.
00:14:23
Speaker
And it just maybe gives you a more realistic perspective of how to go into marriage.
00:14:27
Speaker
And also depends on the quality of your life towards the end.
00:14:30
Speaker
Like, you know, you could be with someone for 40 odd years and spend the last 10, 20 years literally caring for them because they become sick.
00:14:38
Speaker
And yeah, you do that, you know, but it's just not, I think it's so easy to romanticize like getting older somebody and it being like, oh, it's great.
00:14:46
Speaker
And then, you know, something you peacefully die when you sleep.
00:14:48
Speaker
Like it might not be like that.
00:14:51
Speaker
And, you know, people still do break up in their 80s after 40 years, you know.
00:14:56
Speaker
So I wouldn't say that's a pro to getting married because at the end of the day, like, love's a losing game.
00:15:01
Speaker
You do lose at the end, like, in a successful way.
00:15:04
Speaker
And I feel like I've taken it down a notch.
00:15:06
Speaker
It sounds quite depressing now.
00:15:09
Speaker
But, you know, no.
00:15:10
Speaker
Short answer, no.
00:15:11
Speaker
I don't see it as a pro.
00:15:13
Speaker
Ruin is inevitable.
00:15:14
Speaker
All else is prelude.
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:16
Speaker
Anyways...
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I guess on a slightly happier note, I guess.
00:15:24
Speaker
I mean, I've even said as well, the people who think their family's going to be surrounding them are likely delusional because even Queen Elizabeth II, only Charles and Anne were there.
00:15:35
Speaker
And she's the Queen of England and was probably sick for a very long time.
00:15:38
Speaker
And at the end, it was just her two oldest children, probably Charles, because he had to actually verify she croaked it to become king.
00:15:46
Speaker
But she wasn't surrounded by her...
00:15:48
Speaker
all of her children and her grandchildren and her great-grandchildren and that's the queen of England and it's like her family are sitting around doing nothing at home anyway so it's not like they had to like fly from really far away like some people or that they'd all stop talking to her actually maybe Harry and Meghan was a bit dodged so you know even in that scenario where she had all the wealth and you know like her family were pretty much constantly around her even at the end it was really only her two oldest children that were there but
00:16:16
Speaker
But it's really easy to take people for granted.
00:16:17
Speaker
Even, you know, I have a child and I hope if I've done a good job that my child's going to want to be there with me at my deathbed.
00:16:25
Speaker
But life has to happen for that to happen.
00:16:27
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:16:28
Speaker
You can't just assume that, all right, I've got my husband, I've got my kids, that's it.
00:16:32
Speaker
Like my final wish, it's all done.
00:16:34
Speaker
No, you've got quite a bit of work to do to ensure that you have that at the end of your life, assuming that you live...
00:16:41
Speaker
a naturally long life to the expectancy of whatever country you reside in, you know?
00:16:46
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
Societal Views on Marriage vs. Cohabitation
00:16:48
Speaker
And so another thing as well is that we often, we spoke about this before the call about how, especially in Britain, I'm sure it might be in the US as well, but there's this idea that if you live with a man for long enough, you can say we're basically married and almost like convince yourself that you're married.
00:17:07
Speaker
Do you think that you would have, I guess,
00:17:10
Speaker
you know, felt the same because, you know, I suppose that you and Stephen dated for quite some time before you married for various reasons.
00:17:17
Speaker
Did almost like marriage give you that extra layer of security and commitment when he proposed?
00:17:24
Speaker
Not so much when he proposed, but when we got married, definitely it felt different.
00:17:28
Speaker
It shocked me how much it felt different.
00:17:32
Speaker
I didn't think it would, but it did.
00:17:34
Speaker
In what way?
00:17:35
Speaker
I just felt like I had someone like I had to literally live for.
00:17:39
Speaker
Like it made me question all my thoughts and my goals and having to factor someone in.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I suppose in a good way.
00:17:48
Speaker
the way it felt really good and really positive but it's like I actually have someone that I need to live for like even if it's just like looking at like a Kit Kat and thinking oh should I eat that you know no actually I've got to look after my health now it's because it's not just about me anymore someone told me maybe I saw this on a show that like marriage is really self-care for two it's like you building in habits to care for yourself as well as your partner like almost instinctually
00:18:13
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:18:14
Speaker
And that's probably what that was, that recognition that, oh, we have to look after each other now.
00:18:20
Speaker
And we look after each other by looking after ourselves.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:23
Speaker
And then in terms of as well, like, because we talk a lot about FDS, about doing the boyfriend benefits and the husband benefits.
00:18:32
Speaker
And I think some women, and I understand why, they might struggle with that, especially if they're actively working towards building a life with a man they're not married to.
00:18:40
Speaker
But, you know, having those boundaries as well.
00:18:44
Speaker
Would you say that that was a pro of being married, was that you could almost finally express that?
00:18:50
Speaker
yourself and your love for Stephen in a way that wasn't being held back by this idea of but you're just a boyfriend because I know some of your like some of your hard lines made me they did make me laugh as well there were just some places in the world you just wouldn't go to with him before you were dating it was like a honeymoon destination I'm not going with you
00:19:13
Speaker
like why?
00:19:14
Speaker
And you're just like, I'm not going, like I'm just not going with you.
00:19:18
Speaker
And this was like years into our relationship and it was because for me, it's like, I don't want us not to get together because marriage was really important to me.
00:19:25
Speaker
And I don't want us to not work out.
00:19:26
Speaker
And then I get with someone else.
00:19:28
Speaker
We actually get married.
00:19:29
Speaker
It's like, oh, I want to go to Antigua.
00:19:31
Speaker
Oh, I've been there with an ex.
00:19:33
Speaker
Oh, I want to go to Mauritius.
00:19:34
Speaker
Oh, I've been there with an ex.
00:19:35
Speaker
I'd rather not.
00:19:36
Speaker
I've been around the world in 80 days with an ex.
00:19:44
Speaker
I just didn't want to do it.
00:19:45
Speaker
And it's just not how, like for me, a honeymoon destination is very much that.
00:19:51
Speaker
A honeymoon, yeah, yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
Even though these places I wasn't really planning on going for my honeymoon, but those kinds of places where I might go for an anniversary or, you know, Stephen should and better start gifting me for my birthday.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:07
Speaker
I just wanted to do that with my husband.
00:20:09
Speaker
And that for me just kept me, it made me feel safe.
00:20:12
Speaker
And imagine if you went to like Antigua.
00:20:14
Speaker
For me, you go to Antigua, like the Seychelles or something like that.
00:20:18
Speaker
And then you like fight and then end it.
00:20:20
Speaker
And then just abandons you there and then.
00:20:23
Speaker
No way.
00:20:23
Speaker
We can do that in Spain.
00:20:25
Speaker
We can do that in Spain, in Magaluf, in Tenerife, in Ibiza, wherever.
00:20:31
Speaker
Where you won't go back again because it's like, you see like the piss in the streets and like the pissed up brids everywhere that puts you off anyway.
00:20:38
Speaker
You're like, nah sis, I'm not going back again.
00:20:40
Speaker
I can do that in Spain.
00:20:42
Speaker
I can fly and my friend can fly out because it's not, you know, it'd be like, come on, we can make the most of this holiday.
00:20:47
Speaker
Can't quite do that in the Seychelles.
00:20:50
Speaker
That's true.
00:20:51
Speaker
And so like, how, I guess, do you keep the relationship on a positive footing then, almost knowing that you are sort of,
00:20:58
Speaker
Not really holding back, but not giving the full expression.
00:21:03
Speaker
I'm holding back and I made it very clear.
00:21:04
Speaker
You know, I think I said this in the last episode, he didn't like it at all.
00:21:09
Speaker
Because he just felt, well, I'm giving 100%.
00:21:10
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, because you have, for me, it was self-preservation.
00:21:15
Speaker
Because the first time I got into a relationship and I fell in love and the relationship ended and it came to a natural end, it wasn't ugly or anything like that.
00:21:23
Speaker
I was just absolutely devastated.
00:21:25
Speaker
And heartbreak was just hell for me.
00:21:27
Speaker
And I just like, I remember a few weeks ago, I think JLo was talking about Ben Affleck, like 2.0 and their relationship.
00:21:35
Speaker
And she spoke about the first time when they broke up, she was like, I felt that I would die.
00:21:39
Speaker
And, you know, I remember me and Stephen were listening to it and he and she was like, that's so stupid.
00:21:43
Speaker
And I was like, no, I relate to that.
00:21:46
Speaker
He loves that ragged man so bad and I don't get it.
00:21:50
Speaker
He looks miserable in every photo.
00:21:52
Speaker
He does.
00:21:53
Speaker
He does.
00:21:54
Speaker
Like he wants a drink and a smoke.
00:21:56
Speaker
I mean, I can also imagine though, Jayla, I mean, imagine like, you know, most women, you know, sort of have the breakup that Lara described, but doing it on a public stage would just make it so worse.
00:22:06
Speaker
Like after the album where you were singing about your love for him and it just ends, like that would be... She didn't sing on that album, but okay.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:18
Speaker
She did the single on the album.
00:22:19
Speaker
Unapologetic shade.
00:22:20
Speaker
Okay, fair.
00:22:21
Speaker
Okay, fair.
00:22:22
Speaker
She did it.
00:22:22
Speaker
But yeah.
00:22:24
Speaker
I just couldn't.
00:22:24
Speaker
My experience of my first heartbreak taught me that, okay, the next guy, if it's any more serious, I feel like it's going to hurt more.
00:22:30
Speaker
And I don't think I can cope with that.
00:22:32
Speaker
So if the only way I can cope with it is to just be like, okay, here's my boundaries.
00:22:37
Speaker
This is what I can feel like I can deal with.
00:22:38
Speaker
I can't give like a boyfriend all of me.
00:22:41
Speaker
I can't do it.
00:22:42
Speaker
And I'm not willing to do it.
00:22:42
Speaker
So I'm just going to tell you, I'm not going to do that because I'm not married to you.
00:22:45
Speaker
Like, and yeah, he found it really hard because he's like, I'm giving a hundred percent.
00:22:48
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, because you can do that.
00:22:50
Speaker
That's great.
00:22:51
Speaker
And I'm, you know, that's you, that's your decision.
00:22:54
Speaker
It's not, I'm not asking you to make these decisions, that's you.
00:22:57
Speaker
But me, I'm not willing to do this until I'm married and that's that.
00:23:00
Speaker
And it's not like a, you have to marry me first.
00:23:02
Speaker
It's like, I'm just not going to do that for you.
00:23:04
Speaker
And some of this stuff is just not my business.
00:23:05
Speaker
And I wish sometimes more women would just mind their business in relationships.
00:23:09
Speaker
Like if I come to your house and there's pots and pans everywhere, I'm not cleaning that.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:14
Speaker
Right.
00:23:15
Speaker
See, the thing is, the trick is, and like, this is, I am so often finding parallels between relationships and like other types of relationships you have, like employment, et cetera.
00:23:25
Speaker
It's like, there's such a false social contract that I think only women are obligated to follow or like employees are obligated to follow.
00:23:34
Speaker
It's like, if you're like a historically exploited group, the other half doesn't like when you assert boundaries to get benefits from them.
00:23:41
Speaker
Right.
00:23:42
Speaker
So or when you don't like take it because they think like you're supposed to if you work really hard and you show me, you know, you're worth this, et cetera.
00:23:48
Speaker
Like then, you know, I'll reach up.
00:23:49
Speaker
I'll reach down and elevate you to the status of girlfriend, wife, whatever you think is going to be like whatever goal they feel like you're trying to reach.
00:23:57
Speaker
But the truth of the matter is it's always about like leverage, self-respect and boundaries like you.
00:24:03
Speaker
Are you in a position where you can leverage, make demands, meaning like you're not desperate, you're not in a place where you're like, oh, I have to like, I have to take this deal because I need to.
00:24:11
Speaker
Can you draw boundaries about what you're willing to do?
00:24:14
Speaker
Are you willing to walk away if a person doesn't respect that?
00:24:16
Speaker
Three, are you able to demand value for anything you would contribute, right?
00:24:20
Speaker
So like if you just go in and start doing laundry, start doing dishes, start telling them like, yeah, I'll go on whatever trip you want to go on to.
00:24:26
Speaker
Firstly, I would still take the trip, but like, I see that's your boundary, but like...
00:24:30
Speaker
I like free shit.
00:24:31
Speaker
I like going on trips and like, I would just go with another guy.
00:24:34
Speaker
I also like, there's plenty of places to go in the world.
00:24:39
Speaker
The St.
00:24:40
Speaker
Shell's is big enough.
00:24:41
Speaker
The Moody's is big enough.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, like the world is big enough.
00:24:45
Speaker
So then like, yeah, then you force that other person to the negotiating table from like a position of power, right?
00:24:51
Speaker
Versus like where women are often coming from a position of disempowerment, because there's this idea that we're always like supposed to just give away all our value with the hopes of one day a guy liking you.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really, that's a really hard and difficult place to be.
00:25:06
Speaker
Like where you feel like if I do this and I'll be rewarded, like without sounding like one of those moving, those Instagram mottos, like, you know, like you say that, you know, you are the prize, but it's like, I don't see that, you know, I never saw like someone proposing to me as like some sort of reward or like, you know, I take no pride in being a Mrs. So-and-so for me, it's like, yeah, let's do life together.
00:25:28
Speaker
That's what it was to me.
00:25:30
Speaker
And it's either we do it or we don't.
00:25:32
Speaker
Like it's not an institution.
00:25:34
Speaker
I think people see marriage as like an institution to chase after.
00:25:38
Speaker
And it's not, it's the person that's the most important thing.
00:25:41
Speaker
Well, if they didn't, then women wouldn't do it because you would start evaluating what we get out of it.
00:25:46
Speaker
Right.
00:25:46
Speaker
And a lot of women are sold the fantasy because the reality is often so far below what the fantasy they're selling.
00:25:53
Speaker
So like they have to trick you to do a job that's exploitative somehow.
00:25:56
Speaker
Right.
00:25:56
Speaker
So they have to give you like the fairy tale.
00:25:58
Speaker
So, you know, the white picket fence, the knight in shining armor that's going to come and ride in on his white horse and whiskey away happily ever after.
00:26:06
Speaker
And they present that idea as marriage is the goal and not the relationship is the destination.
00:26:11
Speaker
And I think that's so deliberate.
00:26:13
Speaker
I think we're groomed that way on purpose so that we're exploitable.
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's true.
00:26:18
Speaker
It creates an imbalance, doesn't it?
00:26:20
Speaker
And the power sits with one group and not the other.
Cons of Marriage: Gender Roles and Expectations
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:25
Speaker
So, so, so moving on to the cons of marriage.
00:26:31
Speaker
So what are some of the cons that you think come with marriage?
00:26:38
Speaker
So let's talk about romance.
00:26:40
Speaker
First of all, when you get married, certainly when I got married, romance isn't this spontaneous.
00:26:46
Speaker
It can be, but over time, it doesn't become this spontaneous thrill thing.
00:26:52
Speaker
You actually have to inject it into your relationship, and that is long.
00:26:58
Speaker
Sometimes it's not fun.
00:27:00
Speaker
Feeling like you have to do something, and it's just not fun at all sometimes.
00:27:03
Speaker
And also, what romance looks like changes.
00:27:07
Speaker
So for me...
00:27:09
Speaker
I imagine a lot of married women have, you know, romance isn't just the dinners and the dates and stuff.
00:27:14
Speaker
That stuff is really, really important.
00:27:15
Speaker
And, you know, even having a child, like, you know, that we still do all that stuff.
00:27:20
Speaker
But romance also is, you know, sometimes, like, my husband has never looked hotter than when I've come into the house thinking, yeah, I need to wash the plates.
00:27:29
Speaker
And he's in there washing them.
00:27:31
Speaker
We spoke about this, like, useful men just being useful, like, using their muscles and their brainpower to be useful.
00:27:38
Speaker
Or just remembering that there's this, you know, my husband, like, he's like one of those, like, I'm against veganism.
00:27:45
Speaker
Like, but just, there are these vegan snacks that I like, that I buy, that are, you know, pricey as fuck, but he buys them randomly for me.
00:27:54
Speaker
Like, it's stuff like that just...
00:27:56
Speaker
Doing things with his time where he's got much better things to do with his time that just frees up my time.
00:28:03
Speaker
So romance starts to change.
00:28:04
Speaker
Like, you know, yeah, things like that.
00:28:07
Speaker
And just remembering, understanding, or when he understands that it's difficult as a new mother or as a woman, you know, in the working world, it's harder for me.
00:28:16
Speaker
So being willing to make sacrifices, that makes it easier for me.
00:28:20
Speaker
He's literally taken the baby into meetings, which, by the way, I think should be normalised for men to do.
00:28:25
Speaker
Taking babies into meetings with them at work, I think that should be normalised because men should be doing the childcare.
00:28:32
Speaker
And if they're at work and the work, you know, know that they're a father, why can't the baby sometimes make an appearance?
00:28:39
Speaker
Or even just sometimes when he's working from home and he's got a long period or he's able to, you know, multitask.
00:28:43
Speaker
I'm just like, I've had enough.
00:28:44
Speaker
Like, I just want to watch my crime show in peace.
00:28:50
Speaker
To be fair, my niece is a duchess.
00:28:52
Speaker
She's an absolute, like, future duchess Meghan of the UK.
00:28:56
Speaker
She's so demanding.
00:28:57
Speaker
She's so, so cute, but she knows what she wants and she knows how to get it as well.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just like, and I suppose that changes because, you know, him doing tasks for me before that is just like, oh yeah, thanks.
00:29:11
Speaker
It's like a favour, you know?
00:29:12
Speaker
But no, this actually means that like, oh, this is why you're great, you know?
00:29:17
Speaker
Comes those more, the less, almost grandiose things.
00:29:21
Speaker
I feel like some of the cons that marriages, the stakes are higher.
00:29:24
Speaker
So when things are tough, like, I mean, it's taken years for me to just to not think when we have an argument, think back to before we married and be like, this would be over the phone before.
00:29:34
Speaker
And I could just be like, I'm busy now.
00:29:36
Speaker
Bye.
00:29:37
Speaker
I can't do that now.
00:29:38
Speaker
And being able to do that for so long and then suddenly actually have to stare at the problem sometimes.
00:29:44
Speaker
And sometimes when you go for it, it's harder to walk away.
00:29:47
Speaker
And it can make arguments feel very intense, especially when you don't feel like you're being heard, because it's like, what, so this is going to be my life.
00:29:54
Speaker
Now, definitely it goes against, I mean, I think the whole, like, there's a whole marriage commitment, like what it means.
00:30:01
Speaker
It goes against your natural desires.
00:30:03
Speaker
Like we're naturally selfish.
00:30:05
Speaker
Like, you know, that 80-20 rule.
00:30:07
Speaker
Sometimes that 20% can feel like the 80%, you know, and just grass is always green.
00:30:14
Speaker
You're constantly having to fight yourself.
00:30:16
Speaker
We have a window into everyone's lives now on social media.
00:30:20
Speaker
Suddenly, every so often, being single seems really cool.
00:30:23
Speaker
If I was single, I'd be doing that.
00:30:25
Speaker
I'd be there.
00:30:25
Speaker
I'd be here.
00:30:27
Speaker
It requires a lot of discipline and a lot of filtering of what you see.
00:30:31
Speaker
I think a lot of people who are single would say that about being married sometimes.
00:30:34
Speaker
You sort of romanticise the other side.
00:30:38
Speaker
Marriage is just not fair.
00:30:39
Speaker
There's certain things you need.
00:30:41
Speaker
It's just not fair.
00:30:42
Speaker
There's nothing you can do about it.
00:30:43
Speaker
There are just things that you just have to...
00:30:45
Speaker
let go of or experience that just think this is just not fair but there's nothing I can do with this I just have to I'm gonna have to accept it and just keep having to redraw your boundaries because as you change as a person like and often you don't realize that a boundary has changed until there's friction and you're like suddenly this doesn't feel comfortable for me anymore can you give an example of such a of what you just said like can you give an example of like a situation where you just have to accept it's not fair
00:31:14
Speaker
I feel like sometimes when you look back,
00:31:17
Speaker
You know, they say like when you have arguments or disagreements or you've made a decision and you've chosen to like compromise with me in the middle and it hasn't worked out, right?
00:31:27
Speaker
Your natural instinct is to like, you want to blame the other person or you want the other person to take responsibility and that's actually not going to help anything.
00:31:37
Speaker
So you kind of have to deal with, A, I compromised what I wanted or, you know, and then it didn't really work out and there's no one to blame.
00:31:46
Speaker
And now I feel like I'm the one who has kind of bore the greatest brunt of this, but it was an agreement.
00:31:56
Speaker
If I went back to that decision, I probably would have made the same decision.
00:31:58
Speaker
I just, the outcome just didn't work out.
00:32:01
Speaker
Do you see what I mean?
00:32:02
Speaker
You know, and that word compromise, my gosh, like people use that to, again, silence and bullshit women, like compromise, compromise, compromise.
00:32:09
Speaker
Like, you know, you've really got to understand what a compromise, there's a fine line basically between compromise and sacrifice.
00:32:14
Speaker
And I do not, I'm so against this longstanding tradition, especially it's kind of put on women that, you know, marriages or relationships are one long, sorry, tale of sacrifice.
00:32:26
Speaker
Like you shouldn't be sacrificing compromise.
00:32:28
Speaker
Yes.
00:32:29
Speaker
But yeah, when you're having to sacrifice, you know, your peace, your sanity, your career, your feelings, your thoughts, your aspirations, your dreams, like, come on, mate, like this is, you know,
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:40
Speaker
And I think people need to understand the difference between the two, like a compromise is, you know, your thoughts and feelings are taken into account and you come to a agreement that is favourable to both parties, whereas a sacrifice is usually when somebody loses out quite significantly more than the other.
00:32:58
Speaker
And I feel like it's easy to conflate the two, especially with women where we are expected when they use the term, you know, compromise to really mean, you know, just roll over and accept it.
00:33:11
Speaker
As Roy said, I think it's by design.
00:33:13
Speaker
It's all design.
00:33:15
Speaker
The system is designed to keep us down.
00:33:17
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:20
Speaker
I mean, I also think as well, like obviously, you know, touching off the back of that as well, we have women who obviously want to get married and at FDS we encourage women to go into marriage with their eyes wide open and with their own assets and with their own aspirations and dreams.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I guess, how would you balance that with having to compromise?
00:33:41
Speaker
So, you know, let's take the example of a typical marriage where you're having children and, you know, you're probably going to be staying at home for the foreseeable.
00:33:50
Speaker
How do you, I guess, compromise on the fact that you'll be the one staying at home, that your career is going to take a hit, that you'll be going part time?
00:33:58
Speaker
And can you think of any ways that women can protect themselves and basically safeguard themselves against that situation?
00:34:05
Speaker
Because I always feel like women who have children are really, really vulnerable.
00:34:09
Speaker
And, you know, Rowan and I have spoken about this on the pod before, but that's
00:34:12
Speaker
Part of the reason why we feel like conservatives are very much about bullying slash guilt tripping slash trying to push women into having kids is because they know that it makes women's lives more difficult and they are more vulnerable as a result.
00:34:27
Speaker
Therefore, they're easier to control.
00:34:29
Speaker
I think with the career, like to safeguard yourself, first of all, I feel like you need to respect what you do.
00:34:36
Speaker
And your husband needs to respect what you do as well.
00:34:39
Speaker
Even like friends, like before you even get there, like you need to respect what you do.
00:34:45
Speaker
And it doesn't matter what you do, but you need to just put some respect on it.
00:34:49
Speaker
If you don't like what you do, then go out and find what you like doing and what you're passionate about.
00:34:54
Speaker
And when I say respect what you do, like, that's like a doing thing.
Career, Independence, and Family Boundaries
00:34:59
Speaker
That's a doing, that's an active thing.
00:35:01
Speaker
So, for example, you're going on a date or you, you know, you want to meet up with your guy and you're just thinking, oh, I'll just call in sick for work or I'll just, you know, work casually or I'll just quit my job because I want to go on this holiday with, you know, my boyfriend or whatever and then just find another job when I get back.
00:35:18
Speaker
You're not really respecting what you do.
00:35:21
Speaker
And the thing is, when are you then, if you were to then have children, get married and have children for this guy, and then you start feeling vulnerable, actually, I don't want to be at home, that you're not going to be able to have a conversation as to, can we both go part time?
00:35:32
Speaker
Like rather than me take two days out from work, can you drop down to one and compress your hours so that I don't have to drop down two, three?
00:35:39
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:35:41
Speaker
Don't just assume that, you know, I'm going to get married and then have a baby, then go part time.
00:35:47
Speaker
Like, don't ever just say that.
00:35:49
Speaker
Like, wait till you get there.
00:35:50
Speaker
And even just make sure that there are options.
00:35:52
Speaker
Even if you know what you want to do.
00:35:53
Speaker
Even if you want to, I know I want to have kids.
00:35:55
Speaker
And once I have that baby, I'm not working.
00:35:58
Speaker
For the love of God, don't tell a boyfriend that.
00:36:01
Speaker
Just say, yeah, I would explore all my options.
00:36:03
Speaker
Because it's a challenge.
00:36:05
Speaker
Like once upon a time, I wanted to be that one who went, which went automatically, you know, went to part time.
00:36:10
Speaker
Then I wanted to do go back to full time and put kids in nursery.
00:36:14
Speaker
Then, you know, if you're not respecting what you do, then that conversation just won't be a conversation.
00:36:20
Speaker
It will just be expected of you to just do that and put up with it.
00:36:23
Speaker
equally respect your time so even though like at the moment I'm on that leave but I've said to you know I've spoken with Stephen and said at some point I'm going to put her in like nursery or find childcare for work so that I can have a day to myself I'm not back at work but even if I had no intention of going back to work
00:36:40
Speaker
That doesn't mean that I can't do those things.
00:36:42
Speaker
So you really do have to respect your time, like whether it's making sure that you invest in friendships, you have hobbies and interests that you do that mean that you need to protect your time, if that helps.
00:36:53
Speaker
And that will always help because if you make out that you've got nothing better to do than look after a baby, then it's going to be a harder conversation to have.
00:37:03
Speaker
Do your name.
00:37:04
Speaker
And also I've always harpered on to Stephen about it's this, some of this is a natural order because, you know, if you give birth, then you're going to have to take time out of the workplace.
00:37:14
Speaker
Right.
00:37:15
Speaker
And, you know, we're starting to get paternity leave in the UK.
00:37:18
Speaker
It's not equal to maternity leave.
00:37:21
Speaker
And I'm not really sure if it ever should be because it's not men that give birth, but whatever, it needs to be more than what it is because it's very overwhelming for a lot of women.
00:37:30
Speaker
About having your own hobbies and everything so that like you're not structuring your life around just your care of your child.
00:37:36
Speaker
And like, so your partner respects those boundaries.
00:37:39
Speaker
Yeah, and just always talking about and making it clear and using live examples because we know around people around us and, you know, what we see on the internet, if it's relevant, about how vulnerable women are when they, first of all, get married and then go on to have kids.
00:37:56
Speaker
Like, since I've been married, I don't, you know, I won't go into an interview with my ring on, with my wedding ring on.
00:38:02
Speaker
I just won't.
00:38:03
Speaker
Because I've seen, been on panels and seen the bias towards women, especially when you get to a certain age.
00:38:09
Speaker
And disgustingly, it's come from other women, just like, oh, she looks like average age of, you know, she just got married.
00:38:15
Speaker
And they'll just regularly slip and I got married last week or I got married a few months ago and they're happy and they're like, oh, yeah, smiling in their face.
00:38:22
Speaker
The minute they're out the door, like, let's hide the other person because she won't go on maternity leave in a couple of years time.
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's a real thing.
00:38:29
Speaker
And I don't judge.
00:38:30
Speaker
And that doesn't mean to say that everyone should do it.
00:38:32
Speaker
But for me, having seen that, it's like, first of all, you don't need to know if I'm married or not.
00:38:35
Speaker
And I really detest how the whole Mr. and Mrs. thing.
00:38:38
Speaker
Like, why do you need to know that I'm married via my title?
00:38:41
Speaker
It's not got anything to do with anything.
00:38:44
Speaker
I just don't see the point.
00:38:45
Speaker
You've still not changed yours, have you?
00:38:47
Speaker
Like, officially.
00:38:48
Speaker
Controversial!
00:38:50
Speaker
Marriage is a personal thing.
00:38:53
Speaker
Like I said, I don't take pride in being Mr. So-and-so.
00:38:56
Speaker
Like, it's just, we're just married, that's it.
00:38:58
Speaker
People who don't know me don't need to know.
00:39:01
Speaker
I didn't even think of that.
00:39:02
Speaker
So I've seen both sides of the coin, I guess, where some people it's likely to work against you if people think you're going to take maternity leave.
00:39:10
Speaker
I don't know.
00:39:10
Speaker
Is the motherhood tax the same as the marriage tax?
00:39:13
Speaker
Because I feel like this would add to the pros and cons of marriage, like maybe not your primary concern, because I feel like the workforce shouldn't penalize you either way.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely a thing in the UK.
00:39:22
Speaker
Like, I think even you have like said it, like Lara, where even though you can't be fired for being pregnant, but employers will find a way to get rid of like women who are pregnant.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:34
Speaker
You come back, oh, your job doesn't exist anymore.
00:39:35
Speaker
Or, yeah, redundancy.
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:37
Speaker
They'll refuse to, I mean, Stephen used to say, like, because of his background, he was exposed to, you know, organisational development, people stuff.
00:39:46
Speaker
And, yeah, they'd be like, everyone's head would be, you know, people would be on the table and be like, okay, that person's gone on mat leave.
00:39:52
Speaker
Can we get rid of them?
00:39:53
Speaker
How can we get rid of them?
00:39:55
Speaker
Do they say that like just point blank?
00:39:57
Speaker
Because I mean, technically that's discrimination that's illegal.
00:39:59
Speaker
Oh, 100 percent.
00:40:01
Speaker
100 percent.
00:40:02
Speaker
But the problem is, is that it's very, at least in the UK and probably in the US, it's hard to prove discrimination.
00:40:09
Speaker
And it's a very, very long process.
00:40:11
Speaker
So most people just forget about it, especially if you have a child at home and these organizations will make sure there's no paper trail.
00:40:20
Speaker
So they'll say it.
00:40:21
Speaker
But in emails, like the stuff that you can use as evidence,
00:40:25
Speaker
it won't have any record of it.
00:40:27
Speaker
Well, do it legally.
00:40:28
Speaker
And those conversations, like so-and-so's on this, it would require essentially whistleblowing, which nobody ever does.
00:40:34
Speaker
And they're confidential conversations.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:38
Speaker
To the extent that I've ever been part of a conversation about like headcount reduction, like this is why so much of it actually comes from like top down.
00:40:50
Speaker
So people will take medical leave, but it doesn't necessarily disclose why they're taking medical leave.
00:40:55
Speaker
And I wonder if that's to keep it from like giving them discrimination cases, although maybe they can tell it's maternity leave if a woman's of a certain age and she took medical leave.
00:41:06
Speaker
But some doctors in the UK do that now.
00:41:08
Speaker
Like I know when I've gone to the doctor, they ask me like, what do you want me to write on your doctor's note?
00:41:14
Speaker
So they're not too specific because they know that if they put like depression or anxiety, it's not supposed to, but it could go against the person in a negative way.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:24
Speaker
And men and women take medical leave in the state.
00:41:27
Speaker
If it's offered, technically, it's gender neutral.
00:41:29
Speaker
Again, we don't get much maternity leave.
00:41:30
Speaker
So maybe that's why too.
00:41:32
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:41:32
Speaker
Is that standard?
00:41:34
Speaker
No, it's not even standard.
00:41:35
Speaker
It's not even guaranteed you get that.
00:41:36
Speaker
That's just like industry practices.
00:41:38
Speaker
I mean, so
00:41:38
Speaker
you get no maternity leave so you just pop out and kid and come back two days later it's state by state and then company by company but i think a lot of companies will give you like 12 weeks and it's usually reduced pace like 60 70 80 percent of your pay and then men or women can take it so it's not like just for women so then like typically men also do take it because why not you get paid 60 percent of your salary you don't have to work
00:42:02
Speaker
Maybe it's like the way to make it like not gendered against women, I suppose, because like both men and women take advantage of it.
00:42:08
Speaker
It's just called family medical leave.
00:42:10
Speaker
And so it's anything related to family planning, including like if you have a sick relative you have to take care of.
00:42:17
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:19
Speaker
I was just sort of trying to gauge like from the difference between you guys in the UK and the US, like the motherhood tax is
Financial and Career Impacts on Women
00:42:25
Speaker
real.
00:42:25
Speaker
The colloquial term for motherhood tax, meaning like women getting more discriminated against because they have children.
00:42:30
Speaker
I just was more curious about the marital tax because the marital tax is something that's more of a newer concept to me because I always thought like, I was always perceived as the opposite that people think if you get married, like you're more of a stable employee with like a good reputation.
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's men that tend to benefit in the UK from being married, I think.
00:42:50
Speaker
Or if you're like a much older woman, then that doesn't really apply because it's not going to, it doesn't apply in the same way.
00:42:57
Speaker
But certainly I've just been on panels where things have been said or
00:43:01
Speaker
Yeah, where people have made it clear that, oh, she's married.
00:43:05
Speaker
And is it either because they've mentioned that they were married or you can see a ring on the finger?
00:43:10
Speaker
Like, you know, or they've filled out an application.
00:43:13
Speaker
It was like, yeah, I've changed my name.
00:43:16
Speaker
And it's just clear that they've been married and people start thinking things.
00:43:20
Speaker
So and for that reason, I just won't go to an interview with my wedding ring on at all.
00:43:25
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:43:26
Speaker
But that's something that, again, I've shared with Stephen and because of those experiences where I've seen that.
00:43:32
Speaker
And yeah, for that reason, I think it's super important to continue to have those conversations and also to make sure that like a lot of men like that work is work.
00:43:43
Speaker
I feel like when men get caught up in this idea that, you know, I'm providing...
00:43:48
Speaker
And I'm going to get completely stuck in work, even if it means that I'm neglectful to you.
00:43:53
Speaker
Again, it's very difficult to then hold on to your job when something like, you know, a sick relative pops up or, you know, you have children and you need childcare.
00:44:03
Speaker
So, for example, if you both go back to work and, you know, the child is sick, it's always, I always see in workplaces that it's always the mother that takes the day off.
00:44:11
Speaker
And actually, like for me, we're going to have a conversation about it.
00:44:15
Speaker
I took a day off last time, so you need to take the day off the next time.
00:44:18
Speaker
Or if the day falls on a certain time, a certain period where, you know, both you're really busy, then I'll do it.
00:44:24
Speaker
But otherwise we alternate it.
00:44:27
Speaker
And things like that help keep things into perspective.
00:44:31
Speaker
Not only it means that, you know, your husband is playing an active role in your household and supporting you as a parent and being a parent that they should, that often society rewards men for not being very good parents, but also it upholds that respect for what you do and for your personal time, if that makes sense.
00:44:51
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:44:53
Speaker
That's a lot to consider.
00:44:54
Speaker
And also, I just have to ask as well, as we near the end of the episode, did you ever consider any of this stuff like prenups or if I get divorced, I'm getting a prenup sort of thing?
00:45:05
Speaker
Did you ever have that sort of conversation with Stephen?
00:45:08
Speaker
Because we do joke about it, but, you know, especially women who are coming into a relationship with assets as well.
00:45:14
Speaker
And, you know, how to protect that in the event of a divorce, because we always hear about how...
00:45:20
Speaker
you know, men supposedly get rinsed in divorces, but we don't always hear about the other side of it as well.
00:45:25
Speaker
So the Britneys, the Adele's, the, I'm pretty sure it was also a Kelly Clarkson as well.
00:45:32
Speaker
Mary J Blige, you know, women who've just been completely done over by a divorce.
00:45:38
Speaker
And I'm just wondering, did that ever, you know, was that ever a conversation that you had with Steve?
00:45:44
Speaker
And I guess,
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:45
Speaker
Was that ever a conversation that you had?
00:45:47
Speaker
And is it a conversation that you are going to perhaps have in the future, bearing in mind that when you got married, perhaps you weren't at your maximum earning potential, either of you.
00:45:57
Speaker
But if that changes, is that something that you discuss?
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I didn't have like assets like that.
00:46:05
Speaker
I had cash and I had, you know, a fair bit.
00:46:07
Speaker
But yeah, we had a conversation about how that was going to be like split spent.
00:46:12
Speaker
And but I would say that for women who are entering relationships with marriage, I will always say, and as audacious as this sounds, I just think it's the fact of the matter.
00:46:21
Speaker
Like women with assets, I think are more vulnerable when entering like marriage or any sort of legally binding marital agreement than men with assets.
00:46:31
Speaker
purely because men can reinvent themselves career-wise over and over and over again in ways that women just can't, whether it's due to childbirth, whether it's due to the expectation of caring for relatives.
00:46:42
Speaker
Ernest Lester's face as well, men are willing to just straight up bullshit and apply for jobs that they meet 10% of the criteria for.
00:46:50
Speaker
Well, yeah, like inequality in the workplace.
00:46:53
Speaker
And also because of sexism, the nature of the professions that women tend to go into don't often pay as much as the kind of profession that men go into.
00:47:04
Speaker
So if you're, you know, working in the UK, I know it might be slightly different than the US, but like sort of that sort of health and social care type profession or retail and hospitality, where you see a lot more women than you do in the STEM industry,
00:47:18
Speaker
you don't get paid very much.
00:47:20
Speaker
So, you know, you don't get paid anywhere near as much as, you know, those other industries.
00:47:25
Speaker
So, and if you're having children or then looking after children, given that, you know, most, well, certainly in the UK, the primary caregiver is seen legally often as the mother.
00:47:37
Speaker
You're not going to be able to necessarily either keep those assets because now if you divorce and you can't, you know, if you have an asset and then you divorce and it's deemed that you cannot afford to pay, continue to pay that mortgage on your own by a bank, they'll take it off you.
00:47:52
Speaker
And I have seen that happen as well.
00:47:54
Speaker
And it's absolutely devastating.
00:47:57
Speaker
If let's say you've then remortgaged to remodel or whatever, and then you break apart and, you know, this is like, well, you know, you're now on half your salary because you work two and a half days a week because of childcare and you've got childcare to pay for, you can't afford this house anymore.
00:48:12
Speaker
Right.
00:48:13
Speaker
It's not great.
00:48:14
Speaker
So, you know, I would say to discuss prenups and how you're going to split stuff as a woman.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:21
Speaker
Cause that's his real name.
00:48:22
Speaker
Like, Heather, to just cut the last name out, please.
00:48:25
Speaker
Thank you.
00:48:27
Speaker
if Stephen were to develop any sort of, or if I were to develop a business with like you or my family, then absolutely you're signing something to say that no matter what happens to us, you're not, you don't get this.
00:48:38
Speaker
And I would do the same vice versa.
00:48:40
Speaker
And women should also like, you need to think about the decisions that you're making.
00:48:45
Speaker
And like, if you're, you know, buying an asset or going to business with a relative or a friend, something that's quite with it.
00:48:52
Speaker
If you were to break up,
00:48:53
Speaker
you know, it shouldn't involve him, then yeah, you should.
00:48:58
Speaker
And I feel like if you've got any asset, valuable asset, you should try and re-fence it.
00:49:02
Speaker
And if a guy, you know, really loves you and values you, then he should understand.
00:49:08
Speaker
Agreed.
00:49:09
Speaker
We're not about like caring if it affects men or not.
00:49:12
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, it's better for you to not get married because you want to protect your ass.
00:49:16
Speaker
Because we're seeing, you know, you can use maybe celebrity women as an example where sometimes they get famous and they marry their less earning husband and...
00:49:27
Speaker
Guy cheats on them and takes half their stuff.
00:49:29
Speaker
Right.
00:49:30
Speaker
And it's like, there's no benefit.
00:49:32
Speaker
Well, it's just a screw.
00:49:35
Speaker
Like all that stuff, you know, when surely when those laws were made that actually, if, you know, you marry someone with assets and you split, you're supposed to give, you know, pay assets to the other person and alimony and all that kind of stuff that was made at a time where it was men and the money and women stayed at home.
00:49:55
Speaker
And the reason why she couldn't go out, these women couldn't go out and earn money was because they were keeping the home for the guy to go out and get the money.
00:50:03
Speaker
But what now you're getting is you're getting women going out to make money, coming back, like doing the housework, doing the cleaning, doing the rearing the kids.
00:50:10
Speaker
And these guys just playing video games all day.
00:50:12
Speaker
So you could have got a job because you're not helpful in the house, but then they get to collect money where they weren't maintaining the home.
00:50:19
Speaker
And it's so much easier for men to bounce back economically.
00:50:22
Speaker
I mean, they don't have to deal with the type of sexism that we do.
00:50:25
Speaker
So it's just not beneficial to women.
00:50:28
Speaker
Here's the thing, like a business is going to work like a merger, right?
00:50:31
Speaker
Like you're merging your assets, whatever they were at the time when you got married, with the expectation that you'll be married forever until one of you passes away and so that you can pass those assets down to your children.
00:50:41
Speaker
If you like...
00:50:42
Speaker
get divorced and he like starts another family, it becomes like even harder to get like the assets that would have normally been passed down to your children or at least to support you while your children are alive if he goes off and like starts another family.
00:50:55
Speaker
And I feel like that's much more of a risk with men because of the fact that they don't have to carry like pregnancy either.
00:51:01
Speaker
So I'm the person that like opinion that like sometimes it should be more punitive against men to make sure they're not like starting multiple families they can't afford and that they have nothing to pass out.
00:51:11
Speaker
And like, seriously,
00:51:12
Speaker
Like so they're taking so much.
00:51:13
Speaker
I mean, we just talked about James Brown's is like 11, 11 D kids or whatever, like the rare, there's no assets to split anymore.
00:51:21
Speaker
Right.
00:51:21
Speaker
Because they keep his away everything that would have been like your kids inheritance afterwards.
00:51:25
Speaker
And that's why I just don't think men should have shit ever.
00:51:27
Speaker
Anyways, I don't think men should have things.
Advice for Women Considering Marriage
00:51:33
Speaker
Any final words of, you know, let's say if you were speaking to a woman on FDS who's thinking about getting married, what would be the top three pieces of advice you would give to her?
00:51:44
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:51:45
Speaker
Top three pieces of advice would be probably definitely to write a pros and cons list and like ask yourself, like, is this really what you want?
00:51:54
Speaker
Marriage is a great thing, but it can feel sometimes it can feel very, very restrictive.
00:52:00
Speaker
And that feeling of restriction.
00:52:02
Speaker
often comes when there's something wrong and I think if you're not someone who can articulate and feels comfortable with your partner to be like hey this is what I'm feeling and I feel like there are a lot of women who will just suffer in silence because they're afraid of their partner's reaction then I think more women need to be willing to disagree with their partners and walk away I really do feel that there are like women are more afraid of being in a relationship and then not ending in marriage than they are actually being in a marriage that
00:52:32
Speaker
ends in divorce.
00:52:34
Speaker
So I feel like you need to be willing to walk away much, much sooner and
00:52:38
Speaker
Don't get caught up in the whole try before you buy, because I just don't think it works out for women in the ways that it apparently works out for men.
00:52:46
Speaker
So like the whole doing things, let's just do a marriage run in quotes, whether that for you means cohabiting before you get married or, you know, just saying that you're married or just doing some sort of unofficial, like spiritual hocus pocus wedding, whatever, like don't get caught up in that.
00:53:02
Speaker
Like, because commitment, like just get married or just don't.
00:53:07
Speaker
And to just find your person.
00:53:08
Speaker
I know it sounds really vague and not very practical, but find that person that you can actually do your life with.
00:53:15
Speaker
And both you can, I think of those old wall plants that you can do that with, not someone that you feel dependent on or a person that feels dependent on you.
00:53:25
Speaker
That's just not healthy at all.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think those are my top three-ish things.
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely like the second point that you touched on as well.
00:53:34
Speaker
I think that's really important.
00:53:35
Speaker
But I liked all of them, but that's probably my favourite.
00:53:37
Speaker
And also, I think, as unmarried spinster staring, looking at being the cat lady in 20 years...
00:53:48
Speaker
I think it's also as well important, like we've also said, to really consider the pros and cons of marriage to your situation as well, because it's not a one size fits all.
00:54:00
Speaker
And I feel really bad going back to the celebrity women who discovered the hard way that actually getting married is maybe not in their best interest.
00:54:09
Speaker
It's like when...
00:54:11
Speaker
you know, Rihanna popped out the kid and everyone's like, ah, she's having a kid and there's no ring.
00:54:15
Speaker
And I'm just like, well, is it really in her best interest to marry when she's a lot more wealthy than ASAP Rocky?
00:54:22
Speaker
Because what's going to happen is she'll end up paying him ridiculous amounts of child support.
00:54:26
Speaker
I wouldn't do it if I was in her position, personally.
00:54:29
Speaker
Especially like, this is ASAP Rocky, like, come on.
00:54:32
Speaker
This is the thing as well.
00:54:33
Speaker
I don't know why women are so about the ring that they're actually forgetting who's being cuffed to who.
00:54:38
Speaker
Like, ASAP Rocky.
00:54:39
Speaker
Is that a man that's worth marrying?
00:54:42
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:54:43
Speaker
And also, can I just say one thing about marriage?
00:54:46
Speaker
It's not a con, but something to definitely consider is that as a woman, there's a lot of expectation on you.
00:54:52
Speaker
It's very subtle, but very intense feeling of...
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's on you to make it work.
00:54:56
Speaker
You need to make a home for him to want to come back to.
00:54:59
Speaker
Like, you know, you've got to be the one to change.
00:55:02
Speaker
And like men are baby.
00:55:04
Speaker
Like society makes lots of excuses and enables men to be shit.
00:55:07
Speaker
And that is exhausting.
00:55:10
Speaker
So who you choose to do marriage with is so, so important because...
00:55:15
Speaker
Yeah, I hope it goes away.
00:55:17
Speaker
I hope in my lifetime it goes away.
00:55:18
Speaker
But if it doesn't, you need to make sure that that exhaustion is just something that comes and goes.
00:55:24
Speaker
And it's a very external thing not coming from your husband as well.
00:55:27
Speaker
It does indeed.
00:55:29
Speaker
Cool.
00:55:30
Speaker
So that's our show.
00:55:31
Speaker
Check us out on the website, thefemaledatingstrategy.com forward slash the forum.
00:55:34
Speaker
If you want to discuss with us also on our Patreon, you can discuss this episode on our Discord and listen to our...
00:55:41
Speaker
weekly bonus content, patreon.com forward slash the female dating strategy.
00:55:46
Speaker
Also follow us on Twitter at them that threat.
00:55:48
Speaker
And you can follow us on Instagram at underscore the female dating strategy.
00:55:54
Speaker
Thanks for listening, queens and biscuits are better than scones.
00:55:57
Speaker
I don't give a shit.
00:56:00
Speaker
Die mad, Savannah.
00:56:01
Speaker
Die mad.
00:56:04
Speaker
Die mad UK is gross.
00:56:06
Speaker
Bye.