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Attachment Theory Pt. 2
28 Plays1 year ago
The Queens are BAAAAACCCKKK (did you miss us? We hope so, because we missed y'all too!).
The Queens finish their analysis of attachment theory and what it means for your dating life.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Attachment Theory
00:00:00
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:05
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:00:06
Speaker
And I'm Savannah.
00:00:08
Speaker
And we are back with Attached Part 2.
00:00:11
Speaker
We are getting attached, or maybe not attached, again.
00:00:15
Speaker
So we released Part 1, where we covered what attachment styles is, or what the theory behind it is.
00:00:23
Speaker
And just to do a brief recap, attachment theory is essentially...
00:00:28
Speaker
a theory around specific patterns of behaviors in and around relationships and the psychologists who came up with the theory and I want to emphasize that it is a theory it's not absolute just like a lot of things in psychology are just theories and ideas because it's
00:00:44
Speaker
really, really, really, really difficult to essentially study and test human behavior in an objective way.
00:00:50
Speaker
But the psychologists who conceptualized attachment theory basically said that when children are very, very young, they form their adult attachment style based on the attachment that they have with their primary caregiver.
00:01:06
Speaker
And Ro and I noted in part one that when they say
00:01:09
Speaker
primary caregiver, bearing in mind attachment theory was formulated around the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s.
00:01:17
Speaker
They were really talking about the mum as well, which is kind of misogynistic if we think about it.
Impact of Attachment Styles on Relationships
00:01:23
Speaker
Anyway, they identified four adult attachment styles, which were avoidant attachment style, disorganized attachment style, an anxious attachment style, and a secure attachment style as well.
00:01:35
Speaker
And so in part one, Ro and I overviewed the avoidant attachment style and the anxious attachment style.
00:01:42
Speaker
And we came at it from a lens where we basically feel like, well, the royal we, I speak for myself here.
00:01:50
Speaker
We decided.
00:01:53
Speaker
I can't even do the British accent anymore.
00:01:56
Speaker
Is it because you've just been listening to me all the time?
00:01:58
Speaker
It is.
00:01:59
Speaker
I promise you, it's like I've become ear blind to the British accent.
00:02:03
Speaker
It's true.
00:02:03
Speaker
I don't think I could do an American one either anymore.
00:02:08
Speaker
So I think for me attachment theory because I just like gathering information I think is useful from a personal standpoint to be aware of it but I would be weary of applying it to other people or trying to apply it to your relationship with men.
Self-Work and the Fallibility of Attachment Theory
00:02:25
Speaker
Because I feel, especially if you identify that somebody is exhibiting behaviors that are avoidant, for example, that can and has kept women in objectively bad relationships because they are essentially putting the onus of the relationship or the reason as to why their needs are not being met down to the attachment style, as opposed to the actual person that they're with.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, because ultimately, if you're not getting your needs met, it doesn't matter.
00:02:54
Speaker
Once again, it doesn't matter.
00:02:56
Speaker
I mean, it takes a lot of self work, self examination to even if you have legitimately some of these more dysfunctional attachment styles, it takes a lot of self work.
00:03:06
Speaker
And it's really, really hard to put that on someone else to fix, right?
00:03:10
Speaker
Because ultimately, an internal battle.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:03:14
Speaker
And, you know, we're going to talk about the secure attachment style in more detail in this episode.
00:03:20
Speaker
But it's also important as well.
00:03:23
Speaker
I mean, even though the secure attachment style is positioned as almost like the gold standard of attachment styles, that doesn't necessarily mean that being in a relationship with somebody who exhibits, say, for example, secure behaviours
00:03:38
Speaker
is also going to be pleasant as well.
00:03:40
Speaker
Because like Roe rightfully said, you don't get into relationships with attachment styles, you get into relationships with people.
00:03:46
Speaker
I do feel like in the attachment theory literature, it's almost like people who have a secure, or who are perceived to have a secure attachment style, they are put on this pedestal as being the gold standard partner, when actually, that doesn't mean to say that they are
00:04:01
Speaker
the perfect people to be in a relationship with or that they also won't meet your relationship needs in a particular way, if that makes sense.
Disorganized Attachment Style
00:04:08
Speaker
So we have to be careful with that as well.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, because I mean, ultimately, it's character, right?
00:04:13
Speaker
You can have any of these attachment styles and have a poor character or a good character.
00:04:18
Speaker
Exactly.
00:04:19
Speaker
So we're going to cover the final two in the four today.
00:04:22
Speaker
And we're also going to share our final thoughts on attachment theory and also where it sits within the FGS repository, so to speak.
00:04:30
Speaker
So the third, I guess, dysfunctional attachment style is the disorganized attachment style.
00:04:38
Speaker
And actually, I think the term is quite fitting for disorganized attachment style because the symptoms, so to speak, are basically a hybrid of the anxious and avoidant attachment styles.
00:04:49
Speaker
And this one is...
00:04:52
Speaker
And that's essentially what makes it difficult for psychologists or clinical psychologists to actually identify this particular attachment style and actually treat it as well, which also makes you question if it can really objectively exist, if it can't be objectively diagnosed, so to speak.
00:05:09
Speaker
So the traits of a disorganized attachment style, or a DA, as they are often abbreviated to, is that they, almost like the avoidant attachment style, they crave close relationships, but they also fear them at the same time.
00:05:23
Speaker
And slightly pivoting away from the avoidant attachment theory, like model,
00:05:30
Speaker
the theory is that people with a disorganized attachment style are believed to have that attachment style because of childhood trauma or abuse or like a child who develops avoidant tendencies as an adult it may not necessarily be down to trauma or abuse it could just be unintended neglect or inconsistency from the primary caregiver or even just
00:05:52
Speaker
you know, not necessarily being attuned to the child's needs all the time.
00:05:56
Speaker
Whereas a disorganized attachment style is generally believed as a result of child trauma.
00:06:01
Speaker
And as a result of the child being subjected to prolonged and repeated trauma during childhood, they essentially become extremely fearful about forming relationships and attachments with other people.
00:06:13
Speaker
So
Critique of Traditional Attachment Theory
00:06:14
Speaker
just like any other child or infant, they rely on their caregivers.
00:06:18
Speaker
But when a child recognizes that their primary caregiver is a source of fear for them, this creates a massive problem with their internal working model because children or infants especially, they should be able to feel like their parent is a safe and secure base, a person that they can go to without feeling any fear.
00:06:37
Speaker
And this is again, where I have issues with attachment theory is that it places a lot of emphasis on the primary caregiver slash the woman, because even in today's world, it's still women doing majority of the childcare.
00:06:50
Speaker
So not much has moved on in that arena.
00:06:52
Speaker
But it's also very possible for a child to have, you know, multiple primary caregivers, such as a worker at daycare, or their grandparents, or their aunts and uncles, or their cousins, or other people looking after the child.
00:07:05
Speaker
So this fixation on it just, you know, being a singular primary caregiver, i.e.
00:07:12
Speaker
the mother, is a pretty outdated model as well.
00:07:15
Speaker
And it's a key criticism of the attachment theory model in general, in that attachment theory is really based on the Western model of raising children.
00:07:25
Speaker
In the Western model of raising children, generally speaking, people tend to be raised within the nuclear family.
00:07:31
Speaker
So you have a mum and a dad and then siblings.
00:07:33
Speaker
And that tends to be the extent of the support system in raising a child.
00:07:37
Speaker
If you go to places like Africa or India, it's very, very common for children to not only be raised by their mother and father, but also by extended family members as well.
00:07:47
Speaker
You know, so for example, aunts and uncles and like grandparents too.
00:07:51
Speaker
And attachment theory doesn't account for that as well.
00:07:54
Speaker
But I digress.
00:07:55
Speaker
And so if we go back to the disorganized attachment style, the child then starts to feel disorganized.
00:08:01
Speaker
And because the child doesn't know what to expect from their primary caregiver.
00:08:04
Speaker
So if they see this primary caregiver as a safe haven, but they also sense fear because the primary caregiver is inflicting fear or primary caregivers are making them feel afraid.
00:08:16
Speaker
they then don't know if their needs are going to be met or if they are even safe to be able to voice their needs too.
00:08:23
Speaker
And another reason for the fear that psychologists suggest is a reason why people develop a disorganized attachment style is witnessing a traumatizing experience that involves the primary caregiver.
00:08:38
Speaker
So this
00:08:39
Speaker
could be physical abuse, verbal abuse, or even sexual abuse as well.
00:08:44
Speaker
And the end result of all of that is that the child essentially no longer trusts the caregiver because, you know, why would you?
00:08:50
Speaker
If they are inflicting fear, if you see them, you know, abusing other people, you will learn not to trust them as well.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, these are all just perfectly rational responses to the environment they're in.
00:09:02
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:09:03
Speaker
And I guess the difference with the other attachment styles is that not only the primary caregiver isn't meeting the child's needs, they are also a source of fear as well.
00:09:13
Speaker
And this is what makes the disorganized attachment style within the attachment model slightly different to the other two as well.
00:09:20
Speaker
Because if you have, say, a parent who is inconsistent, which is...
00:09:25
Speaker
the assumption, you know, when we're talking about anxious or avoidant attachment style, somebody can be inconsistent, but they may not necessarily be causing fear, unless you're talking about the child developing a fear that their needs won't be met, which is the case in the anxious attachment style, which can then cause them to resort to protest behaviors later on down the line.
00:09:49
Speaker
But yeah, essentially, a person with a disorganized attachment style, psychologists would say,
00:09:54
Speaker
that their attachment style is essentially rooted in fear and their belief that they are not safe in their relationships as well.
00:10:02
Speaker
So some of the signs that, you know, psychologists say are indicative of a disorganized attachment style.
00:10:08
Speaker
Again, it's almost like a hybrid approach of the anxious and the avoidant attachment styles as well.
00:10:17
Speaker
Symptoms such as poor emotional regulation, so they can have mood swings, temper tantrums as well, have low self-esteem.
00:10:26
Speaker
They can be quite dichotomous in that they can either seek extreme closeness with somebody or extreme distance and they don't really have almost like a middle ground.
00:10:36
Speaker
They fear abandonment, but they also fear intimacy, which sort of mirrors the traits of somebody who is avoidant as well.
00:10:44
Speaker
And they struggle to trust people because, again, if they've been either subjected to or witnessed or both abuse in their childhood, it's understandable why they would struggle to trust the people around them.
00:10:56
Speaker
Because trusting people could mean getting hurt as well.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, this is like perfectly rational feelings.
00:11:02
Speaker
I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm sympathizing with this thing looking a little familiar, some of this behavior.
00:11:06
Speaker
But I think your earlier point in the last episode about how so much of this is situational attachment to it's like if you just never experienced a safe environment in order to have a healthy attachment with someone, how would you even know how to do it?
00:11:20
Speaker
Or why would you even expect it?
Debating the Flexibility of Attachment Styles
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:11:23
Speaker
Another thing that psychology likes to do is they like to set ages as to when people formulate their behavior or their character.
00:11:33
Speaker
Like there is a ongoing debate, for example, about, you know, when is our personality determined?
00:11:40
Speaker
There used to be the idea that by the time you're 30, your personality is set.
00:11:45
Speaker
But
00:11:46
Speaker
Recent studies have shown that it isn't quite clear and actually that our personalities are very different in different situations.
00:11:53
Speaker
For example, the way you present yourself at work will be very different to the way you present yourself when you're out with friends, as it probably should be.
00:12:02
Speaker
And so, you know, when we talk about attachment theory and we say, you know, it's set as an infant and then it stays with your whole life, it doesn't take into account the fact that a lot of things can happen between being an infant and even being an adult as well.
00:12:17
Speaker
There are so many things that can happen that could potentially cause this that actually don't have anything to do with, you know, what happened to you in your childhood, if that makes sense.
00:12:26
Speaker
And so I think it's another huge flaw of the theory in that it focuses heavily on
00:12:32
Speaker
the infant years, which I think is a good period of time to study, especially when we're talking about child development and parenting.
00:12:39
Speaker
But I struggle to believe that the patterns are as rigid as they say, because so much happens.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think what's scary too is like, I know to a certain extent that a lot of the behaviors that will affect you in adulthood are sometimes caused by the way your brain develops in childhood.
00:12:58
Speaker
So I wonder if they like, they over...
00:13:00
Speaker
emphasize and overstudy childhood because they feel like okay due to x amount of trauma happened to you during this time your brain is now wired this way and it's basically very difficult for it to unfuck itself for lack of a better term in adulthood but i agree with you in the sense of like it seems weird to me that you couldn't heal your brain in adulthood but you can definitely fuck your brain up in adulthood right so like you could become an anxious avoidant attachment style because of
00:13:28
Speaker
a bad relationship you had in adulthood right so i would think that you could also recover so i guess it's like the overemphasis on like the child development maybe because of that idea or bias that basically whatever happens when you're a kid is permanent for some reason which i don't know may or may not be true maybe partially true
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:50
Speaker
And again, it's really difficult to determine the path of causation as well.
00:13:55
Speaker
Like, this is the reason why doing, essentially being able to study human behavior is actually really
Understanding Secure Attachment
00:14:02
Speaker
difficult.
00:14:02
Speaker
And if you were to do it properly, it would also probably be very, very unethical.
00:14:06
Speaker
Because what, off the back of what Ro just said, if we truly wanted to understand the impact of
00:14:13
Speaker
of, you know, let's say attachment theory and, you know, how it's formulated, essentially what we would need to do is we would need to remove all the extraneous variables that could possibly occur.
00:14:24
Speaker
So an extraneous variable, to describe a research term, is essentially a variable that you're not testing, but could influence the result.
00:14:33
Speaker
So let's say you want to attest
00:14:35
Speaker
how children form attachment, for instance, with their primary caregiver, you would have to essentially make sure that the research subjects, in this case, the primary caregiver and the child, are in an isolated environment where the child isn't also influenced by the behaviour of the secondary caregiver.
00:14:54
Speaker
If that makes sense, because otherwise that could influence the result of what you're trying to test, which is essentially what is the impact of the child's attachment to the primary caregiver on their attachment style later on in life.
00:15:09
Speaker
Then you'd have to do a longitudinal study, which is essentially a study that happens over many years with the same research subjects, which are very, very expensive.
00:15:17
Speaker
And they also tend to not be viable from a research standpoint because people die, people drop out, people lose contact with the researchers.
00:15:25
Speaker
And so that's just quite a long winded way of agreeing with Rose Point in that actually trying to study like human behavior in its purest form is incredibly difficult.
00:15:36
Speaker
And for that reason, very, very few longitudinal studies of people are actually approved within psychology because they're just really difficult.
00:15:45
Speaker
And if we truly wanted to test it in its purest form, it would also be an unethical study as well, because we'd essentially just have to isolate the child and the primary caregiver and see what happens, which just wouldn't, essentially no ethics board would approve such an experiment because it wouldn't be ethical to put research subjects through that as well.
00:16:04
Speaker
Okay, on to the final attachment style then.
00:16:07
Speaker
So this is a secure attachment overview.
00:16:10
Speaker
So as I said at the top of the episode, people who are, or the secure attachment style is seen as the gold standard of attachment.
00:16:21
Speaker
And it basically does what it says on the tin.
00:16:24
Speaker
Essentially, attachment theory posits that
00:16:27
Speaker
Adults have a secure attachment style because when they were a child, they felt confident that their primary caregiver will meet their needs.
00:16:36
Speaker
And so in childhood, the child feels that they have a secure base from which they can explore the world, but they also know they can rely on the secure base if they need to.
00:16:46
Speaker
If you'd like to find out more information about this idea of this secure base, I will drop
00:16:52
Speaker
A link to a study called the strange situation by a psychologist called Mary Ainsworth that tests this theory out.
00:16:59
Speaker
Again, the study has limitations, but it's a great way to further understand what is meant by this concept of secure base as well.
00:17:08
Speaker
I always wondered, too, though, again, and this is a side note, but secure attachment, as we stated at the beginning of the episode, a lot of people look at it like it's this gold standard of attachment styles, and that's what we should all strive to achieve.
00:17:21
Speaker
But truthfully, sometimes people can expect things like...
00:17:26
Speaker
We talk about scrotes on this podcast all the time, and they are certainly very, very good at expecting people to provide for their needs because they are used to like women to a certain extent catering most often like their mom or their primary female caregivers.
00:17:40
Speaker
That's not necessarily a good thing.
00:17:41
Speaker
Right.
00:17:42
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:17:43
Speaker
It's true.
00:17:44
Speaker
That's so true.
00:17:44
Speaker
And it's also like when men cheat as well, like in their mind,
00:17:48
Speaker
Part of the reason why a lot of men who cheat, they do so for such a long time is because, or people who cheat, but I'm just going to say men for the purpose of this because I feel like it.
00:17:58
Speaker
But they have that secure base at home, which they see as their wife, that they know that they can rely on almost whilst they go out and fuck around behind her back, if you see what I mean as well.
00:18:09
Speaker
So yeah, I never thought of it that way, that it can actually be used in a maladaptive way, this whole secure attachment.
00:18:16
Speaker
Because, you know, something like cheating or something like expecting women to be at your beck and call, that's really, really ballsy.
00:18:23
Speaker
That's a ballsy thing to do, but it happens all the time.
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah, you really got to believe the universe is going to rise up to meet you when you make demands.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:32
Speaker
And you really have to believe that there is a woman that will put up with that and that will do it.
00:18:36
Speaker
And I guess some men are somewhat validated in that there are a lot of women who will, you know, do all that and put up with it.
00:18:42
Speaker
So, yeah, that's a really good point.
00:18:44
Speaker
And so I guess other attributes of that contribute to a child developing a secure attachment style is the caregivers give, they are able to strike the right balance between allowing the child to explore and giving them support as well.
00:18:58
Speaker
And they're also attuned to their child's needs and can meet them consistently.
00:19:04
Speaker
Another criticism I have of this is that I'm not trying to make excuses for like bad parenting.
00:19:11
Speaker
And I'm not talking about parents who are just basically shit parents.
00:19:15
Speaker
But I feel like the only way or like the way the model positions a secure attachment style is that the parent has to be perfect all the time.
00:19:26
Speaker
Like they have to be attuned to their child's needs.
00:19:28
Speaker
They have to be able to meet them all the time.
00:19:31
Speaker
And, you know, whilst I do believe parents should strive to meet their child's needs as and when, but it's not an easy job and parents aren't going to get it right all the time.
00:19:40
Speaker
Even parents who, you know, really want to do their best at parenting, they're not going to get it right all the time.
00:19:46
Speaker
And I feel like the attachment model
00:19:48
Speaker
Basically, if you want to raise your child with a secure attachment style, then you have to be a perfect parent.
00:19:54
Speaker
But if we accept that no parent is perfect, but there are still people who are secure walking around, doesn't the theory somewhat contradict itself in that manner?
00:20:03
Speaker
That's just me throwing it out to the universe there.
00:20:07
Speaker
And most importantly, the child feels valued as a human being and their own individual are not seen as an extension of their parents.
00:20:12
Speaker
And I think, generally speaking, even though I'm not a parent, but I do think parents should strive to make their child feel that way, generally speaking, because children, you know, whilst you gave birth to them or, you know, whilst you're raising them,
00:20:26
Speaker
They are also individual beings of their own.
00:20:29
Speaker
And I do sometimes feel like it can seem like some people maybe don't recognize that, that a child is not necessarily an extension of themselves.
00:20:41
Speaker
They may not make the same decisions as them and they are their own individual being as well.
00:20:46
Speaker
And so these are the supposed signs that somebody has a secure attachment style.
00:20:53
Speaker
Again, the theory suggests that people who are secure have a low tolerance for dysfunctionality in relationships.
00:21:02
Speaker
So I know in the book Attached, the authors make the case or they include case studies where somebody who had a secure attachment style was dating and
00:21:14
Speaker
a person who was avoiding and they quickly just ended the relationship because they're not there to play games they're not here to chase people they don't really engage in the entire you know i'm hot today cold tomorrow sort of thing they find it easy to open up and be intimate with people especially if they are pursuing a relationship or seek to pursue a relationship or a friendship with that person
00:21:35
Speaker
they are comfortable being alone and exploring the world.
00:21:39
Speaker
Because I do think that in today's society, especially as women, but more broadly, there is still this huge stigma about being single.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it's like being single, it doesn't have to be the same as being lonely as well.
00:21:52
Speaker
So people with a secure attachment style, they say that they are comfortable being single.
00:21:57
Speaker
And even in a relationship, they don't become enmeshed with their partners.
00:22:00
Speaker
Like, have you ever met those couples, Ro, where
00:22:03
Speaker
they just become a two for one deal when they get married.
00:22:06
Speaker
So they have the same friendship circles.
00:22:07
Speaker
If one person doesn't go out, the other person doesn't go out either.
00:22:11
Speaker
You know, if one person goes out, the other person, or if like one person stays at home, they both stay at home.
00:22:16
Speaker
And that can be quite common, at least from what I've seen in relationships, that sort of enmeshment.
00:22:22
Speaker
And they then have like exactly the same friends.
00:22:24
Speaker
And I don't know, I would find that suffocating personally.
Influence of Privilege and Culture on Attachment
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I know we've been criticized for being like, avoidantly attached.
00:22:32
Speaker
Because the previous episodes we've done on this were like, I think me and you're on the same page, or we just don't need as much like constant contact.
00:22:39
Speaker
But for people for whom that is like level enmeshment like feels natural to them.
00:22:44
Speaker
I wouldn't say that they're insecurely attached, meaning like they have to do all these things together.
00:22:48
Speaker
That just seems to be like a natural comfort level with their partner.
00:22:51
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:53
Speaker
I just always just think even in a relationship, it's just good to have your own breathing space.
00:22:58
Speaker
I agree.
00:22:59
Speaker
No arguments for me over here.
00:23:01
Speaker
I mean, I'm trying to play devil's advocate for the people who I know are going to criticize us for this because they're like, well, I spend every day with my boyfriend.
00:23:09
Speaker
Like, I'm not anxiously attached.
00:23:10
Speaker
It's just like, you know, a natural extension of our love for each other, et cetera.
00:23:14
Speaker
Or they're just naturally friends or they just develop the same friend group.
00:23:17
Speaker
You know, it's also very common, like an introvert extrovert couple.
00:23:21
Speaker
So like sometimes the introvert person needs the extrovert person to cultivate like their social life.
00:23:26
Speaker
So I look at that as like symbiotic, right?
00:23:28
Speaker
So like the introvert person just kind of gets dragged along with the extrovert person's overall social engineering.
00:23:36
Speaker
I don't think it's like indicative of anything dysfunctional.
00:23:39
Speaker
No, they're playing to different strengths.
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:41
Speaker
They have different strengths.
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:44
Speaker
So people are secure, they can communicate their needs effectively.
00:23:49
Speaker
Again, this doesn't necessarily, this might not necessarily be a good thing as well, something to watch out for, because communicating your needs effectively can also involve the person resorting to manipulation to get their needs met, because that's an effective tactic, right?
00:24:04
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:05
Speaker
There's just certain people they come from enough privilege and whatever life they have, they're just very comfortable making demands on others.
00:24:12
Speaker
I wouldn't necessarily call them like narcissistic.
00:24:14
Speaker
If you're a narcissistic person, you can definitely come across like securely attached and like it's making people who are less securely attached feel bad or like they're not as good at articulating their needs.
00:24:25
Speaker
But it's like, well, they've never had an environment where that was even an option.
00:24:28
Speaker
Right.
00:24:29
Speaker
So like even having the environment where it's an option to be able to like articulate what you need and what you want is a privilege that not everybody has.
00:24:36
Speaker
And some people have a lot of it because they are coddled a lot.
00:24:40
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:41
Speaker
They tend to have a positive view of themselves.
00:24:44
Speaker
and their childhood, which again, I would also like to question because I think attachment styles, if they exist, they can be very fluid.
00:24:53
Speaker
So it's possible for somebody who may not have had a great childhood to go on to develop a secure attachment style and be secure in relationships as well.
00:25:02
Speaker
I don't necessarily think that somebody having a negative view of their childhood, especially if it was objectively terrible, it means that they're not securely attached.
00:25:11
Speaker
or that they don't have these traits.
00:25:13
Speaker
They also tend to handle breakups and difficult life events well, and they have good mental and emotional resilience.
00:25:20
Speaker
This just sounds like someone who had like a middle-class upbringing and their parents weren't outwardly abusive.
00:25:26
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:25:27
Speaker
Like anybody who's ever anxiously or insecurely attached people, they may have just taken on the stress of their economic environment, right?
00:25:35
Speaker
Like their parents are stressed because their parents couldn't afford anything.
00:25:38
Speaker
I don't know.
00:25:40
Speaker
I'm hating on securely attached people right now.
00:25:43
Speaker
Fuck you and your functional ass relationships.
00:25:45
Speaker
Sorry.
00:25:46
Speaker
Sorry.
00:25:47
Speaker
But that's a valid criticism of the study as a whole, because again, it was done on, you know, white American middle-class families and,
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah, get a bigger cross-section of people, like different cultures and different economic environments, different countries.
00:26:05
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, that's, again, that's just the general drawback of the whole theory is that it's very much rooted in the Western way of raising children.
00:26:13
Speaker
And even midwives in the UK, they sometimes say, or at least when my sister was pregnant, they said to her that the Western model of raising children might not be the most
00:26:24
Speaker
effective way of raising children and that other cultures, they might have a better idea of how to raise children.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, the Western model is all about individualism and like the nuclear family.
00:26:35
Speaker
And it's, in my opinion, a byproduct of capitalist interest.
00:26:39
Speaker
It's like it fosters competition between you and your community rather than cooperation between you and your community.
00:26:44
Speaker
And why?
00:26:45
Speaker
So they can sell you stuff.
00:26:46
Speaker
It's like keeping up with the Joneses, right?
00:26:48
Speaker
Like you want to feel better than your neighbor.
00:26:50
Speaker
You don't want to feel in tandem or in a community with your neighbor.
00:26:54
Speaker
No reasons for that.
00:26:55
Speaker
Blame the filthy capitalists.
00:26:57
Speaker
But yeah.
00:26:58
Speaker
And they often also say that, and I'm not sure if this is like nice guy propaganda, so to speak, but they often say that being, you know, let's say an avoidant or an anxiously attached person or a disorganized attached person, data secure person, they will find them boring in quotation marks.
00:27:17
Speaker
because they tend to be, I guess, more emotionally stable.
00:27:21
Speaker
That's the argument.
00:27:22
Speaker
But I don't know, that sometimes feels like it could be weaponized by, like, the nice guys.
00:27:27
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:27:28
Speaker
Like, saying, well... Yeah, that sounds like nice guy propaganda.
00:27:32
Speaker
I'm a nice guy, you know, why does she find me boring when actually you could just not be exciting to them?
00:27:38
Speaker
Like that doesn't, you know what I mean?
00:27:40
Speaker
I sometimes find securely attached people more boring because they just haven't had the breath of life experience and fucked up experiences that people with more interesting things
00:27:50
Speaker
attachment styles have meaning like something they're boring is that they literally cannot relate to people who have had colorful experiences in life right so I feel like that's not really fair to be like well they're not boring it's just that they're not likely to understand you and vice versa you're not likely to understand them
00:28:09
Speaker
And they could just actually be boring to
Beyond Attachment Styles in Dating
00:28:11
Speaker
you.
00:28:11
Speaker
Like there's this whole idea that secure partners are the reason why somebody might not want to date a secure person has got nothing to do with their attachment style.
00:28:19
Speaker
And maybe they're just not compatible as people, or maybe they don't have, you know, their goals and values don't align doesn't necessarily mean that they're boring, like, so to speak.
00:28:28
Speaker
And I feel like the term boring in this context is,
00:28:31
Speaker
it means that the partner wants drama, but the secure person isn't giving it, if that makes sense.
00:28:36
Speaker
So the secure person is sort of let off the hook when actually people might find you boring for reasons that have got nothing to do with your attachment style.
00:28:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's a bit, could be twisted to be like, you know, nice guy propaganda.
00:28:48
Speaker
Okay, so there is a school of thought within psychology that is suggesting that there might be more attachment styles identified.
00:28:56
Speaker
But the four that we've discussed in this episode and the previous episode on attachment are the main ones.
00:29:01
Speaker
Now, the first thing I would say to any woman looking today is don't fixate on attachment styles.
00:29:10
Speaker
Again, this is a useful piece of information to be aware of just for your own knowledge.
00:29:15
Speaker
But when you are out dating, it is a much, much better reference point is to focus on the man's actions and how you feel, because ultimately that is all that matters.
00:29:25
Speaker
Like, as we've said, people with a secure attachment style are also capable of treating you badly in relationships.
00:29:33
Speaker
it doesn't necessarily have a bearing on, you know, whether they're a good partner or whether that you are compatible as well.
00:29:40
Speaker
Because I also feel like the influences of patriarchy, for example, are not stated at all within the theory when we know that is huge.
00:29:48
Speaker
If we look at things like anxious attachment style, for example, patriarchy makes women or encourages women to behave in a way that is anxiously attached.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of part of the whole deal.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:02
Speaker
It's basically, if you're taught from the time you're young to seek validation from men, when you encounter men who don't go along with that script, it's basically going to make you feel unstable, right?
00:30:14
Speaker
Because men are unstable.
00:30:16
Speaker
Yes.
00:30:17
Speaker
Yes.
00:30:18
Speaker
And then you double down trying to prove your worth to men.
00:30:21
Speaker
And we see this all the time, you know, women compromising on their boundaries, you know, just to please men because they've internalized the message that, you know, if a man doesn't find them attractive or useful, you know, then they don't have any worth at all.
00:30:35
Speaker
And so attachment theory also, it doesn't acknowledge the dynamics and just the sheer differences in the way that men and women are raised, even by their own parents.
00:30:47
Speaker
Anybody who has, or any woman who has, who has a male sibling can attest to the fact that, or at least I might be speaking for myself here, but I don't know of any woman with a male sibling who can say that they were raised the same way as their male sibling.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:31:05
Speaker
Side note, even if your parents attempt to, society doesn't.
00:31:08
Speaker
So it becomes very clear that
00:31:10
Speaker
very quickly that your trajectory and your brother's trajectory are going to be very different in life.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:31:17
Speaker
Then we have, don't try to armchair diagnose people with a certain attachment type.
00:31:23
Speaker
This is a complete waste of your time.
00:31:25
Speaker
And as we've said there, it might not even be accurate as well.
00:31:29
Speaker
So the only thing you can really go off is their actual actions.
00:31:35
Speaker
Because again, as I've mentioned before, especially women who identify as anxiously attached,
00:31:39
Speaker
they become very attached to their own diagnosis.
00:31:42
Speaker
So they try and diagnose the men that they're with.
00:31:45
Speaker
Usually they're diagnosed as avoidants.
00:31:47
Speaker
And that can keep them in the trap of the relationship because as I said at the top of the episode, as opposed to looking at the behaviors, the man is exhibiting and thinking, actually, he doesn't meet my needs.
00:31:59
Speaker
They start saying, oh, he's just an avoidant.
00:32:01
Speaker
I don't know what to do.
00:32:02
Speaker
Like help me manage his avoidant behavior.
00:32:04
Speaker
And actually they should be saying, these behaviors are not making me feel safe in this relationship.
00:32:09
Speaker
I don't like this relationship, so I'm opting out as well.
00:32:12
Speaker
Peace out, yeah.
00:32:13
Speaker
And also, that's just unpaid emotional labor.
00:32:16
Speaker
Like, it's just like when women, you know, sit around trying to decipher a man's behavior.
00:32:20
Speaker
Like, one of the most poignant FDS posts that I read, one of the first ones that I read, was where the poster said, if you have to Google the man's behavior, you've basically already lost.
00:32:34
Speaker
Like, it's a lost cause.
00:32:36
Speaker
Right.
00:32:38
Speaker
Honestly, facts.
00:32:40
Speaker
If you ever get to the point where you have to Google like what is going on with this person because they're not communicating with you or it's just making you feel uncomfortable, it's probably already done.
Self-Reflection and Personal Insight
00:32:49
Speaker
It's over.
00:32:50
Speaker
It's a lost cause.
00:32:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:52
Speaker
Anything other than like a head injury or some kind of like illness symptoms maybe is the only thing I would Google about your man.
00:32:59
Speaker
Even if it's a head injury or like illness symptoms, he can Google that himself.
00:33:03
Speaker
What if his fingers are literally chopped off due to an unforeseen motorcycle accident?
00:33:09
Speaker
Well, then I'll just be part of the male statistics who leave their partners when they're sick.
00:33:16
Speaker
What if he's blind and has no fingers?
00:33:18
Speaker
Then what?
00:33:19
Speaker
Then you gotta go... I'm trying to think of... Should I leave him?
00:33:26
Speaker
Should I leave him?
00:33:29
Speaker
I mean, if you want to, we're never going to tell you no.
00:33:32
Speaker
You can leave for whatever reason.
00:33:36
Speaker
That's the only thing I'll be Googling and joking.
00:33:38
Speaker
Well, it actually depends.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah, actually, don't even Google that.
00:33:41
Speaker
You know you don't want to be there.
00:33:42
Speaker
Just go.
00:33:44
Speaker
Staring across the aisle of your eyeball, this fingerless man.
00:33:49
Speaker
If I leave this man now, will I be on the hook for his medical bills?
00:33:55
Speaker
You need to get the legal advice straight.
00:33:56
Speaker
That's what you should be Googling.
00:33:58
Speaker
There we go.
00:33:59
Speaker
That's why you Google it.
00:34:00
Speaker
And my final point as well is directed more, because as I've said, even though I said you shouldn't underdiagnose people, but I personally believe that society encourages women to behave in an anxiously attached way.
00:34:13
Speaker
So by chasing men who are unavailable.
00:34:16
Speaker
And if you've noticed this pattern in your relationships as well, it would be worth considering, you know, what it is that the outcome that you expect from chasing men who are emotionally unavailable or men who don't treat you as you deserve to be treated as well.
00:34:33
Speaker
You don't necessarily have to do this in therapy.
00:34:35
Speaker
Like I definitely feel therapy is an overstated solution to a lot of emotional problems.
00:34:41
Speaker
It just takes some self-awareness and actually being alone and getting to a point where you can compare a man's contribution to your life as a solo woman.
00:34:53
Speaker
As I've said before, a mistake that a lot of women tend to make in relationships is that they will compare their current relationship
00:35:01
Speaker
to a previous relationship.
00:35:03
Speaker
And if we accept that the bar for men is literally in hell, you're starting from a very, very low bar to begin with.
00:35:09
Speaker
So this is what I would say is that, you know, have some introspection as well.
00:35:14
Speaker
But as I've also said in the previous episode too, like if you, you know, feel anxious or unsafe in a relationship or in response to objectively bad treatment, that doesn't mean that you have a disordered attachment style.
00:35:26
Speaker
That is a valid response to not getting your needs met.
00:35:30
Speaker
you know, by somebody who is supposed to be meeting your emotional needs, like a partner in a relationship should be able to do.
00:35:37
Speaker
And this has been my gripe with pretty much all of pop psychology is like, I feel like women will read all this stuff and then give them like diagnose themselves.
00:35:46
Speaker
And every time they hear some new type of psychology jargon, they'll see how it fits in their life.
00:35:53
Speaker
And meanwhile, men are doing none of this shit.
00:35:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:56
Speaker
Right.
00:35:56
Speaker
They're just kind of getting to exist to a certain extent.
00:35:59
Speaker
And I'm not saying like, I don't mean men as in every single man that's ever existed, but like men as a group, right?
00:36:04
Speaker
When you look at like psychology books, when you look at relationship books, overwhelmingly they're purchased by women.
00:36:11
Speaker
So a lot of times when I hear all of this stuff about like, if you start to Google, like, am I anxiously attached?
00:36:17
Speaker
And you've never felt that before.
00:36:19
Speaker
Could just be the douchebag you're with.
00:36:20
Speaker
Like instead of adopting it as an unfixable personality trait that's inherent to you,
00:36:26
Speaker
putting yourself in a place or away from this person such that like you can be in a healthy relationship that's not being triggered to be anxious because yeah the guy you're with is a douchebag right does that make sense yeah so i think in terms of where attachment theory sits
00:36:42
Speaker
in the FDS repository.
00:36:44
Speaker
I would say it's good for information only, but I wouldn't pay much attention to it.
00:36:48
Speaker
I think human behavior is way more nuanced than the theory sets out.
00:36:53
Speaker
And ultimately, as we say with FDS, the way to make your dating life easy and stress-free is to look at the empirical evidence that
00:37:00
Speaker
in the form of the man's behavior, because that is actually objective.
00:37:05
Speaker
The way he's behaving is an objective measure of his behavior, not some, you know, random attachment theory from the 1970s that may or may not be applicable
Conclusion and Social Media Information
00:37:14
Speaker
to it.
00:37:14
Speaker
Got it.
00:37:15
Speaker
And that's on that.
00:37:17
Speaker
And that's on that.
00:37:18
Speaker
Check us out on the website, thefemaledatingstrategy.com.
00:37:22
Speaker
If you are still on the dumpster fire, that is Twitter slash X. I'm not really on there much anymore.
00:37:28
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:37:29
Speaker
Don't blame me.
00:37:30
Speaker
We're at fem.strat.
00:37:32
Speaker
Check us out on Patreon.
00:37:33
Speaker
Patreon.com forward slash female dating strategy.
00:37:36
Speaker
And Instagram at underscore the female dating strategy.
00:37:38
Speaker
Thanks for listening, queens.
00:37:40
Speaker
And all you scrotes out there, we don't care what your attachment style is.
00:37:44
Speaker
Just sort yourselves out.
00:37:45
Speaker
Honestly.
00:37:46
Speaker
Yeah, figure it out.
00:37:47
Speaker
And die mad.
00:37:48
Speaker
Die mad.
00:37:49
Speaker
See y'all next week.